Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: UmaroVI on (00:09:32/08-14-11)

Title: [SR4a] Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (00:09:32/08-14-11)
Archetypes Overview
The Archetypes are a replacement for the Sample Characters provided in SR4A. They are specifically intended for Shadowrun Missions and are fully compatible with the SRM rules. They can be used in non-Missions games as well, with a few caveats (see below), such as ignoring references to SRM-specific rules (such as how downtime activities work).

NEW
5 new archetypes: Martial Artist, Former Neoprimitive, Gunslinger, Magical Rocker, and Info Savant. In particular there are now 4 of every metatype except dwarves (of which there are 2).

Why replace the sample characters?
The sample characters are neither suitable as pregenerated sheets for new players to use, nor useful as examples of how to make characters. They have widely varying levels of effectiveness (compare the Weapons Specialist to the Street Samurai or the Enforcer), many of them cannot do the job they claim to be able to do (the smuggler cannot smuggle things, for example), and many of them are built in strange or illogical ways. They are also difficult to use, because they don’t list all necessary information on their character sheets.

The Archetypes fix these problems. They are built to a fairly uniform power level, and they all clearly advertise what they are and are not good at. Not only do they list all the game information needed to sit down and play them (such as the effects of spells, common dice pools, damage of weapons, and statistics of vehicles and drones), they also have a list of recommended ways to spend karma and nuyen with the costs pre-calculated, for easy between-Missions upgrading (useful for convention play, or for new players who are overwhelmed by the number of options).

All of the Archetypes have “hooks” that make it easier for players to get into the character and add unique elements to their version of an Archetype, as well as a few open Knowledge Skills (along with a list players can select from) to add a bit more uniqueness.

Finally, to be more friendly to new players, all the Archetypes have a “Tactics” section that lays out the basic way the characters operate and explains the typical use of each character’s abilities.

Design principles:
In general, all the characters favor passive and automatic effects (such as Improved Ability) over active-use preemptive abilities (such as Attribute Boost). Similarly, they have minimal amounts of “widget” gear - meaning small, situational pieces of equipment that are easy to forget you have and that you have to remember to use. The reason for both of these design choices is to make the characters easier on new players; sheets filled with lots of little things that only help in narrow circumstances and with abilities that you have to use in advance rather than activate “on the fly” when they come up are much harder to handle when you haven’t seen the character before and aren’t highly familiar with the game system.

All of the characters are designed with about a 70%-30% focus on effectiveness “as-is” versus long-term karma and nuyen efficiency. Obviously, this varies a bit from archetype to archetype, but at the very minimum none of them are missing anything they need to perform their stated roles, even if it means having some gear that they will want to throw away and replace after finishing their first run.

All of the characters are designed for a relatively high level of optimization, for several reasons. First, it’s a lot easier to weaken characters than to strengthen them. Second, the players of Archetypes will usually be newer players: they should be able to play alongside characters with more karma run by more experienced players, without being unable to contribute.

All characters are designed to wear acceptably discrete armor - typically armored clothing with discrete armor worn underneath. None of the characters start play with Restricted or Forbidden armor.

All of the characters have at least one weapon (or attack) that is Restricted, concealable, or both; many characters also own unconcealable and/or Forbidden weapons, but none of them rely on such weapons to be effective.

The Tactics section maintains the polite fiction that Stick-n-shock is for taking people alive, rather than for any situation other than fighting Stun-immune targets or intentionally killing people at the cost of taking them down less quickly. All characters who use guns own both Stick-n-shock ammo and lethal ammo; the intention is to facilitate both tables where Stick-n-shock is prevalent, and also tables that have a “gentlemen’s agreement” not to use it as a default attack.

Similarly, the characters with Summoning/Compiling have fairly conservative suggestions about the force of the spirits/sprites they should typically call, but of course have the option of higher-force summoning.

All of the characters have 35 points of Negative Qualities, with an emphasis on “personality flaws.” This is to give players immediate hooks they can use to get in character, and to make the Archetypes more distinctive. If you don’t have time to make a whole character from scratch and want to instead personalize an Archetype before play, swapping negative qualities for other ones is a good idea.

All of the characters have an appropriate contact. Characters with poor social skills tend to have higher connection-rating contacts to give them more to do during the Legwork portions of adventures.

As an overall design principle, more specialized characters aim to be excellent at all the aspects of their area of expertise. Less specialized characters aim to be pretty good at critical aspects of the areas they cover. For example, characters who are not very combat focused aim to be good with one type of weapon rather than subpar with every type of weapon. More combat focused characters aim to be very good with several types of weapons (including at least one weapon for any given niche), rather than incredibly amazing with a single particular weapon.

Excluded options: None of the characters use any of the following, even though they are (strictly speaking) permitted in missions, and most if not all of the characters would benefit.

-Cyberhands and Cyberfeet with Armor Enhancement
-Emotitoys and Empathy Software (including not advising the Technomancer to thread them)
-Multiple Grenades
-Softweave Armor
-MRSI software
-Iron Will
-Dump stats were kept to the following standards: most of the characters have all or all but one ability score at 2 or higher. A minority (the Technoshaman and the Transhuman Mystic) have two ability scores at 1.
-None of the characters are metavariants, Changelings, or sapient critters.
-The characters avoid, as much as possible, the use of any spells, powers, or equipment with unclear mechanics. For example, the Technomancer is not advised to take the Swap echo, because it isn’t clear how it works and different GMs may rule it works in very different ways.

Rules assumptions:
There are several places where the rules are unclear. There’s simply no way to design all the characters to work under all possible interpretations of every rule, so instead, I will outline the assumptions the characters were built under.

Cyberlimb Averaging: It is unclear how cyberlimb averaging was intended to work as the example appears to contradict the text and the math used isn’t explicitly shown. The archetypes assume the most conservative (ie, weakest for the cyberlimb user) interpretation that doesn’t directly contradict the example, which also appears to be the most widely held version.
   a) The skull is considered a “partial limb” and is not used except in tests that directly and exclusively involve it (just like hands or feet).
   b) The torso is a full limb.
   c) Tasks that involve one limb and one limb only use that limb’s stats and only that limb’s stats, regardless of whether it is partial or full. The characters were designed to not bring up questions like “does firing a SMG use only my hand, or does it use my forearm, or my entire arm?”
   d) Tasks involving clear and specific sets of limbs use the average or the minimum, depending on the GM’s judgement of whether it requires a combined effort or careful coordination. Examples include running (both legs) and firing two-handed guns (both arms). Only full limbs are averaged; partial limbs do not apply in either case.
   e) Tasks that involve no specific body parts, such as encumbrance from armor or damage resistance, average the torso, both legs, and both arms. The characters base stats are averaged in multiple times if appropriate; for example, a character with a cybertorso, one cyberarm, and one cyberleg would have an “average Body” of [(base Body)x2 + cyber torso body + cyber arm body + cyber leg body]/5

The only more conservative commonly held interpretation that I am aware of counts the head as a full limb. However, this leads to either the nonsensical conclusion that the head is not involved in resisting damage, or contradicts the example given on page 343 of SR4A.

In any game that has houserules or a different interpretation of the rules from the above, all of the characters with cyberlimbs will need to be significantly reconstructed.

Skill caps: I assume that the skill caps are (unaugmented attribute plus unaugmented skill)x2 or 20, whichever is higher; ie, the Improved Ability adept power and other effects that increase skills do not raise the skill cap.

I assume that for Matrix tests, the cap is set by (unaugmented) Complex Form or Program rating and skill, not by Logic and skill. If Logic and skill is used to set the cap, the Technoshaman should be significantly rebuilt or not played.

Drones and Tacnets: It isn't uniformly agreed upon how drones and tacnets interact. One school of thought that is supported by the rules is that drones do not count their drone sensor systems normally, and instead count all drone sensor systems, collectively, as being a number of channels equal to the drone's Sensor rating. The other school of thought is that drones follow the normal rules, but may (instead of participating in a tacnet themselves) provide a number of channels to a different character equal to the drone's sensor rating. I used the latter assumption in building these characters, based on neither being a clearly more powerful option and the latter being more widespread in use.

In games where a different interpretation is taken, characters with drones may need some revision. If the former interpretation is used, the simplest fix is to remove any two sensor channels from each drone (while maintaining Sensor 6), and attach a microsensor camera with one vision enhancement to the drone. This will cause a drone to have 8 channels (6 from its Sensor 6, 2 from the camera [which is not part of the drone sensor systems]).

Other interpretations include that only unmodified drones use their Sensor rating, and drones with modified sensor systems use the normal rules, and that the Sensor rating is an upper limit on the number of channels a drone can supply, or an upper limit on the number it can supply with its drone sensor systems. These are not supported in the rules, however.

It should be noted that this rule only applies to drones, not non-drone vehicles. Non-drone vehicles follow the ordinary rules for Tacnets.

Biocompatibility: It is not written anywhere in the rules whether Biocompatibility is meant to deduct from the base cost or is meant to be a multiplicative deduction with other essence cost reducers, that is, it isn't stated whether a character with Biocompatability (Cyberware) and Alphaware cyberware has 70% or 72% essence reduction. Based on consensus of Missions GMs, I went with the simpler and slightly more favorable option (70%).

Missions Specific Design Choices
There are some things that might not be immediately obvious that result from the characters being designed for Shadowrun Missions; these are listed mostly to help anyone who wants to use the Archetypes characters in non-Missions games.

In general, all of the characters are designed with choices of skills and abilities that I have observed to be useful in Missions games I have run or played in personally.

Contacts: All the characters have a Contact from Season 4 of Shadowrun Missions. You may want to replace these if you are playing a different season or a non-missions game. The missions format tends not to reward very heavy investment in contacts at character creation, so there aren’t any characters who spent more than 9 points on contacts (but everyone has at least 1).

Licenses: Per Bull’s preferences, Fake Licenses are based on “common sense” things that characters would have licenses for - such as a license to practice magic - rather than the way the Sample Characters have a separate fake license for each restricted item (even to the point of having two fake licenses in order to own two copies of the same gun).

Optional Rules: The characters assume that no optional rules (aside from those explicitly included, like extra recoil compensation for high Strength) are used, and that no “at the GM’s discretion, characters may take...” abilities are permitted. Specific “game-changers” commonly used in non-missions games:
   1) Martial arts. Every character except the pure mages and the Technoshaman would benefit from some investment in martial arts otherwise.
   2) Way of the Adept. The Negotiator should probably have a Way, if Way of the Adept is allowed.
   3) Custom streams and traditions: All the magical and emerged characters would benefit from having a customized tradition or stream.

Possession: Possession traditions were temporarily banned in Missions (at the time the characters were made), so there are no Possession-tradition magicians or mystic adepts. Some may be added, at some point; currently they are now legal.

Mental spells: Mental spells were temporarily banned in missions (at the time the characters were made), so none of the magicians know any mental spells. They are currently legal and so this may change.

Specializations: Missions allows only the specializations listed under the skill entries in SR4A, in all of their vague and inconsistent glory. This causes a whole host of oddities such as Unarmed (Martial Arts), Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled), no Pistols specialization that covers the Ruger Thunderbolt, et cetera.

Languages: The amount of knowledge skill points assigned to languages and the languages chosen reflects the sort of NPCs that tend to show up in Missions. It might be a good idea to change Language skills (or background skills in general) in a differently-themed game.

The Archetypes:
Archetypes Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtjLCmS0jvVFdEk3VHU2emw3Z2p3STl4eF93R2lwV3c&hl=en_US#gid=0") that gives a general idea of what the Archetypes are and what they do.
Burnout Combat Mage (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15coH0xoRgDOeUD-gAOlFvYNaJhzHDsLSxCmRxYOqtXw/edit?hl=en_US"): a cybered Dwarf magician focused on combat magic.
Spirit Medium (https://docs.google.com/document/d/19_Z7dkjuhbeEneNPtTzjoGexmH0dDFsWCO6CVppVYgc/edit?hl=en_US"): an Elf magician focused on summoning.
Paranormal Detective (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R81eSK0E38_Xu4-IQwIcAqGVGDrnhgC8wJlf-bOZxpM/edit?hl=en_US"): an Ork magician focused on detection and illusion.
Magical Rocker (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PJhEQj13rguJr9cmlp9dGvTYvMrsr1qGTZTJLTasDJY/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CN2OnoYN), a human magician focused on flashy combat magic and rocking out.
Transhuman Mystic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ph6kgrCLolu1XLZNJ58iAcnOBPrNKEzt8HbJifBz0LY/edit?hl=en_US"): a Dwarf cybered mystic adept focused on magically-enhanced physical combat and B&E.
Negotiator (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WSle2w2WJgINGDDRBm-Z35rd0K_Uaoqlb2ux5nkzdvc/edit?hl=en_US"): an Elf cybered adept with a mix of social and physical combat skills.
Martial Artist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K7lVWbazjXnIGHziwUufJbzsZGGgMSTnNj4WS5dJXdM/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept focused on melee combat and social skills.
Former Neoprimitive (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RL6OPk6YgliUZ3MaFSZ-MnCCsnoWl8296HB1LV6DmuI/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept who uses archaic throwing weapons to great effect.
Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FtD-p3YhRoczHXMV0Dgqy19KeweeTvDrwVdzDtsngWQ/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CK2incEP), a human augmented adept focused on mastery of pistols.
Ronin (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Br3sXa-Sc8L18qxi9J67kNFchHiK1SPOe57rElLasAQ/edit?hl=en_US"): an Ork street samurai, focused on an even mix of toughness, melee combat, and ranged combat.
Ghost (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5-Z04bXEhuylLRumDT7tUA36rsNq0sWRdIHnQFDFxg/edit?hl=en_US"): an Elf street samurai, focused on ranged combat.
Bad Enough Trog (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KTX4FC4rl55QILGOfcnc9MTwApiqFbmqlOfLtNRUoxo/edit?hl=en_US"): a Troll street samurai, focused on toughness.
Mercenary Rigger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nyw7oC8F_W6sNoHrWo2HbU2XFj4747O1xh-apxQBbYM/edit?hl=en_US"): an Ork rigger, with secondary skills in hacking, B&E, and physical combat.
Generalist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ozdYUhCaaIBdRAaRV8rOLBnIzHsjxdI31LR60rlXJk/edit?hl=en_US"): a Human face/street samurai/hacker.
Spook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1846Tf_e6Fwbgy8U8R_YKHCJl0Z-NzahFsY0ty397UgI/edit?hl=en_US"): a Human face/street samurai/B&E specialist.
Combat Hacker (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtQotUH64UwZ50qfVnPB_sEQ-ZP2Z42sSICHExzCZi4/edit?hl=en_US"): a Troll hacker/street samurai.
Technoshaman (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jRpNQnGJoot3E7D16sFSd1bdBKccyKfHbgwzHatT9hs/edit?hl=en_US"): an Elf technomancer focused on hacking, with secondary rigging.
Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Q8VswsnvVSLoaLuw9G9KpRxU5AphE3hzCSTZNljteI/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CJH4zqsI), an ork technomancer focused on rigging, with hacking secondary.

Chummer files:
I am linking completed Chummer files of the above characters produced by other forums users, credited to them.
Spirit Medium (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-ZCYmUlZuCcbUNLU3djVkF5aVU/edit), credit to SladeWeston.
Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-ZCYmUlZuCcZmNVRzZwZlprQ3c/edit), credit to SladeWeston.
Mercenary Rigger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9jLCmS0jvVFTGJuNzFxdkVwMXc/edit?usp=sharing), credit to groduick.
Technoshaman (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxV7fEVqDSckaUhSUGdHbUdTN1k/edit), credit to RHat.
Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxV7fEVqDSckeFpna0hxd3hLZk0/edit), credit to RHat and runner-up to SladeWeston.

All chummer files by Andrej533 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=4495.msg238328#msg238328)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Sark on (00:13:50/08-14-11)
Thanks for putting these together.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (10:30:53/08-14-11)
This post is 15 kinds of awesome.  Attention moderators, STICKY NEEDED.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shadowjack on (12:14:03/08-14-11)
The keeper of the character section delivers yet again :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (14:14:05/08-14-11)
People always say the smuggler can't smuggle, but while it is not perfect I think it could smuggle given the context of the main 4e book.  Infiltration, navigation, driving, electronic warfare covers the sneak past borders part of smuggling fairly well with the base rules, a few more hacking skills would be nice but you only have so many points.  I'd of gone with con as well, but negotiation(bargaining) can work on the bribe front.  And the knowledge skills are solid.  The vehicles are decent given its just the main book they are using, the programs as well.  It really isn't until you start adding in all the supplements that the smuggler falls down a bit. And even then she can smuggle across quite a few borders with what she has, it isn't like she needs to get out of east berlin in the 60's.  Borders are big, knowing the routes and border patrol tactics should get her 90% of the way there.

I'm not saying I wouldn't build her differently, but we had a player use it once and she worked out reasonably well and could smuggle to some degree.  The archetypes are not perfect but I think they get a bit more flak than they should.  A wide range of effectiveness on the 400 BP scale is actually a good thing in my mind, I just wish they were labeled in a way that a novice would know this guy was built to kick butt, this guy was good at combat but we left out some things for growth or to start on a lower tier.  For example the weapon specialist and the sprawl ganger would work on the same team, but if the street sam was thrown in the mix it would make both of those 2 look bad at the start. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Xzylvador on (15:29:03/08-14-11)
+1 for all that work. Good builds, very well detailed and explained. Truly awesome work.

Not done reading and checking all of them... but if I can do a quick nitpick: Why does the detective only have 4BP's of contacts? They're the kind of archetype I'd always consider to have lots and lots of people to get information from. Beggars, prostitutes, cops, criminals, janitors, the PI's the guy who always seems to know someone who just happens to have that piece of the puzzle that makes everything fit.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (16:57:26/08-14-11)
His detective seemed more crime scene detective than legwork detective, which is probably why his contact list is sparse for most detectives.  On a side note depending on the GM I might never take contacts like that for a detective, data search does the legwork part far to well in some games. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (17:54:41/08-14-11)
On the issue of contacts-  he does say these characters will built for missions, and that he feels missions tends to under-reward heavy contact investment.  All characters are always campaign specific.  When I build a character I usually spend a minimum of 15 points on contacts, but that is due to the expectations of the table and the standards of the campaign, not because its "right" or "better". 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Onion Man on (18:14:16/08-14-11)
Umaro, thanks a ton.

I'll be using a handful of these (all of them that overlap with the archetypes list I had made for myself to pump out for Missions).

Another +1 for you.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: kirk on (18:40:28/08-14-11)
Quote
On the issue of contacts-
I've always found the contact list to be the most frustrating thing of making the character.  "Realistically" (snicker) unless each character grew up in a cave she should have dozens if not hundreds of 2 to 3 BP contacts. Every skill had to be learned, and many came from teachers (whether literal or just folk she hung around with). She learned a language or two? From whom - family? and family and the friends of family aren't contacts?

gah.

I've made comments of a couple of house rules for my table, but this is the one I'd change the most. You get 1 contact point per BP. At least half must be in 4 point or lower contacts. And at least two must be family (or foster family).  But that's just me.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (19:26:17/08-14-11)
Quote
On the issue of contacts-
I've always found the contact list to be the most frustrating thing of making the character.  "Realistically" (snicker) unless each character grew up in a cave she should have dozens if not hundreds of 2 to 3 BP contacts. Every skill had to be learned, and many came from teachers (whether literal or just folk she hung around with). She learned a language or two? From whom - family? and family and the friends of family aren't contacts?

gah.

I've made comments of a couple of house rules for my table, but this is the one I'd change the most. You get 1 contact point per BP. At least half must be in 4 point or lower contacts. And at least two must be family (or foster family).  But that's just me.

I think the theory is yes you might know 50 people to some degree, but contacts are the people you know who can be useful in your chosen profession of being a shadowrunner.  I could call my childhood friend right now, and he'd be willing to help me any way he could.  The thing is unless I was asking him about a TV show he liked, how to overcome addiction, or the shipping policies of the company he works for he wouldn't be a help.  And for the latter part that is just the GM writing something into the adventure it wouldn't be an official contact. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: kirk on (20:03:36/08-14-11)
Except the other purpose of contacts is to dig up what you can on both Mr. Johnson and your target. Which means if the target is a corp your shipping aware friend might know a thing or two -- even if it's not the same company.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (21:09:24/08-14-11)
Sure, but again most people you now wont know what you need.  The paid for contacts are the secretaries that know these things, your random friend number 5 doesn't. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (00:26:25/08-15-11)
Re: Contacts, this is one of those things that varies a lot from table to table. In Shadowrun Missions, contacts are something you can earn during gameplay; it's generally recommended that players start with at least one contact but that's not even universal. That's why I mentioned it under "Missions-specific design choices;" I know some tables will often see 15-30 bp spent on contacts, but in Missions that just isn't a smart choice.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Onion Man on (03:04:04/08-15-11)
Re: Contacts, this is one of those things that varies a lot from table to table. In Shadowrun Missions, contacts are something you can earn during gameplay; it's generally recommended that players start with at least one contact but that's not even universal. That's why I mentioned it under "Missions-specific design choices;" I know some tables will often see 15-30 bp spent on contacts, but in Missions that just isn't a smart choice.

Yeah...  After just playing up to Smuggler's Blues at Origins, nojose and I maxed out several contacts.  You pick up contacts like hunting dogs pick up wood ticks.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (09:30:46/08-15-11)
Looks good
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:08:41/08-15-11)
His detective seemed more crime scene detective than legwork detective, which is probably why his contact list is sparse for most detectives. 

"It looks like the victim was dressed up in a Jester costume, and was shot in the back with armor piercing flechettes. What do you think was going on, here?"

"It looks to me like.... Harlequin's back."

YYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knnwIMXuj1U)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Earthshaker on (00:13:31/08-16-11)

*Lurk mode off*

Heya Umaro - First off you've done a huge amount of work and opened my eyes to a few interesting facets of the new system and the way everything works together. So thanks this post is great.

Next a little critique.

Whether you know it or not it seems that you have become a bit powergamey/minmaxer in your character builds.

Those characters you've created (i've only gone through a few so far) are beasts, i'd hate to see a maxed power-gaming character you created (I realise several parts of your character sheets are cut and pasted ie all  have ruthenium overcoat and awesome sensor packages)

I find the lack of presence of the most common race in your list a bit telling, the other races have better stats ... but where is the Human Magician who glorifies in just being a Wizard and who has just enough touches to the design to make him effective as a Runner.

And if you've considered all that before, can I put in a request that you include a plain jane Human Magician .. not super optimised, just the same level as the other cool characters.

*Lurk mode on*
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (02:16:26/08-16-11)
If I add more characters (which I am considering, although possibly only after giving them a bit more time for discussion/feedback), my first priority will probably be more humans (unless there's some overlooked niche that humans don't fill well).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Blitz66 on (02:52:04/08-16-11)
Thank you, Umaro.  Awesome work.  Learned a lot from these builds.  I like your design philosophy.  Really, having a well-constructed baseline to work from is extremely beneficial.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (05:13:12/08-16-11)

*Lurk mode off*

Heya Umaro - First off you've done a huge amount of work and opened my eyes to a few interesting facets of the new system and the way everything works together. So thanks this post is great.

Next a little critique.

Whether you know it or not it seems that you have become a bit powergamey/minmaxer in your character builds.

Those characters you've created (i've only gone through a few so far) are beasts, i'd hate to see a maxed power-gaming character you created (I realise several parts of your character sheets are cut and pasted ie all  have ruthenium overcoat and awesome sensor packages)

I find the lack of presence of the most common race in your list a bit telling, the other races have better stats ... but where is the Human Magician who glorifies in just being a Wizard and who has just enough touches to the design to make him effective as a Runner.

And if you've considered all that before, can I put in a request that you include a plain jane Human Magician .. not super optimised, just the same level as the other cool characters.

*Lurk mode on*

I will admit that these builds are highly optimized.  But they were built for a specific purpose, missions, and they were built so that they could be effective at a table with more experienced characters, if i read Umaro's notes correctly.  I think its a good example to know how to build this kind of character, even if you choose not to.  As Umaro said its easy to tone a character down, taking them the other way is more challenging.  These characters would not be appropriate for every campaign, but that is true of just about every character ever built everywhere. One of the unstated assumptions of these characters is that the table they were designed for expects you to have 15 or more dice in your core competency.  Studying these will teach a person some ways to do that, which is a good  player skill to have, even if you end up in a campaign with a different set of expectation. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (12:09:54/08-16-11)
Has the latest season of missions upped the challenge a lot.  From what I remember of missions is even poorly optimized characters heck probably all but the worst SR4A sample characters could steam roll through every mission I saw. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Onion Man on (12:24:42/08-16-11)
Has the latest season of missions upped the challenge a lot.  From what I remember of missions is even poorly optimized characters heck probably all but the worst SR4A sample characters could steam roll through every mission I saw.

No, it hasn't.

I went into Origins with an optimized character and left with the feeling that if Bull hadn't arranged for the last one to be turned up to 11, I could have soloed them all with minimal hassle.

For me, providing replacement characters is less a matter of having optimized toons to give to incoming players as it is to avoid having to explain the how and why of "You really don't want to play X", Like the weapon specialist that isn't very good at using any of their weapons, has more weapons than any complete team should ever be carrying around at once, and has poor initiative and only one pass...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (14:19:55/08-16-11)
Has the latest season of missions upped the challenge a lot.  From what I remember of missions is even poorly optimized characters heck probably all but the worst SR4A sample characters could steam roll through every mission I saw.

No, it hasn't.

I went into Origins with an optimized character and left with the feeling that if Bull hadn't arranged for the last one to be turned up to 11, I could have soloed them all with minimal hassle.

For me, providing replacement characters is less a matter of having optimized toons to give to incoming players as it is to avoid having to explain the how and why of "You really don't want to play X", Like the weapon specialist that isn't very good at using any of their weapons, has more weapons than any complete team should ever be carrying around at once, and has poor initiative and only one pass...

Have to agree here.  The sample characters should be teaching tools.  Just because you can make an optimized character doesn't mean you have to, or that you even should, depending on the campaign, but you should know how.  The sample characters in SR4A range from meh to scary bad. 

The only really important thing with power levels is to get everyone at the table on more or less on the same page.  A good GM will challenge you no matter what your power level is.  The difficulty  comes when you have a weapon specialist who has fewer dice with his primary skill set than the face does with his combat secondary.  You want all the players to feel their characters are good at what they are good at, and that everyone brings something to the team.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (15:14:51/08-16-11)
Has the latest season of missions upped the challenge a lot.  From what I remember of missions is even poorly optimized characters heck probably all but the worst SR4A sample characters could steam roll through every mission I saw.

Personally, I miss the TR system.  Sure it was a shameless dirty hack that caused weirdness especially on the matrix and when both sides normally rolled small dice pools on opposed test, but it was a simple way to scale from characters that the weapon specialist would feel at home to guys like the archtypes to prime runners. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (15:28:53/08-16-11)
+1 on TR love. It had some weirdness issues like nodes that have 2+TR stats would roll Firewall (TR+2) + Analyze (TR+2), +TR (or TRx3 +4), and similar issues with spirits, but at least it scaled the chalange. Hopefully there will be some super difficult Season 4 missions coming out eventually (and not just prime runner ones).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (19:30:18/08-16-11)
The only really important thing with power levels is to get everyone at the table on more or less on the same page.  A good GM will challenge you no matter what your power level is.  The difficulty  comes when you have a weapon specialist who has fewer dice with his primary skill set than the face does with his combat secondary.  You want all the players to feel their characters are good at what they are good at, and that everyone brings something to the team.

This is the core of it. It isn't too hard to take any given adventure and ramp up the challenge as-needed for a uniformly strong group, but it is really hard to GM for a group with wildly different power levels.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:30:56/08-17-11)
Quick note: the Transhuman Mystic had two banned-from-SRM qualities, Genetic Heritage and Augmentation Addict. Fixed the sheet. The link now leads to v1.1 with a changelog at the bottom; you can of course still find the old sheet in the collection.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:07:54/08-18-11)
Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see? By "types" I mean stuff like metatype, general function, etc, rather than highly-specific things, since I want to keep them generic.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (13:36:29/08-18-11)


I can see why Mind Probe is not allowed. My Occult Investigator has it (never looked at the Archetype, just thought it would be handy). In fact, it its so handy that I am considering asking our GM if I can swap it out for something less tempting -  our team has a habit of just v&ing people and having the Mage scour his mind for what we need.

When you have a big hammer, everything starts to look like nails.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (17:05:23/08-18-11)
I actually don't mind mind probe, but I understand why it isn't allowed in missions.  Still in my games it seems to reduce the amount of sociopathic interrogations, with enough social dice pools to get the info anyways.  Still thematically I prefer things like analyze truth, or compel truth.  It involves some role play and the threat of always knowing a lie also seems to cut down on the crazy. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Jazz on (06:18:14/08-20-11)
Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see?
- Norm, mundane characters to replace the weapon specialist.
- Crafters
- Hacker/Shaman focused on debuff
- THE ultimate Rigger
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (07:10:00/08-20-11)
The first three of those are unfortunately not supported characters in SR4A. I might include a more rigging-focused technomancer at some point.

Unaugmented mundanes just don't work, especially not people like the Weapon Specialist who try to be good at meatspace combat. If you want the appeal of "looks like a normal dude, not like a killer cyborg," try the Spook.

Crafting is banned in Missions.

Debuffs unfortunately just don't work. It's just as hard to debuff someone as it is to KO them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Onion Man on (23:25:52/08-26-11)
I have just got to say thank you for these again.  One of the guys I'll be running through Missions has just settled on the Transhuman Mystic, pointing another one at this thread too.

So much more convenient than making characters from scratch with or for each of them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (14:30:59/08-27-11)
I have just got to say thank you for these again.  One of the guys I'll be running through Missions has just settled on the Transhuman Mystic, pointing another one at this thread too.

Tell me how it goes!  The Transhuman Mystic is one of the odder and more recent builds out there and it'll be interesting to see how it works out in other groups.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: _-Target-_ on (01:49:32/08-28-11)
Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see? By "types" I mean stuff like metatype, general function, etc, rather than highly-specific things, since I want to keep them generic.

I would like to see a full scale hacker.. maxed out for matrix work.. so so at all else...  not a troll.. just a human
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (07:15:47/08-28-11)
While an elf rather than a human, that's the Technoshaman.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: EDJohnson on (07:34:26/08-28-11)
While perhaps not the most straight forward character concept, I have always thought techno mages were really neat, especially that of a Chaos Mage (using tech even in magical rituals and such).

They both use similar attributes (mental), so it usually boils down to nuyen spent on hacker stuff (50k ish) and skills.

Using the Karma system (and only 700 karma despite the book saying 750), I made a very plausible hacker/mage. With the SR4 system, this is even easier, as essence does not need to be spent on implants. I bought them anyway (a math SPU for example) in my example, but for an archetype, that could probably be skipped.

So, to boil it down to archetype terms: A Techno Wizard, human mage focused on utility magic and hacking
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (02:27:03/08-29-11)
I would like to see a pure (no cyber or bioware) adepts.

Regards
Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Neurosis on (03:44:09/08-29-11)
The first three of those are unfortunately not supported characters in SR4A. I might include a more rigging-focused technomancer at some point.

Unaugmented mundanes just don't work, especially not people like the Weapon Specialist who try to be good at meatspace combat. If you want the appeal of "looks like a normal dude, not like a killer cyborg," try the Spook.

Crafting is banned in Missions.

Debuffs unfortunately just don't work. It's just as hard to debuff someone as it is to KO them.

Overall you seem to have a solid grasp on the rules and system mastery and all that but you do tend to make a lot of categorical blanket statements that I disagree with. Like about debuffs, for instance. I don't even agree that they don't work well, but still, something that doesn't work as well as something else isn't the same as something that doesn't work, period. You seem very averse to making that distinction.

Semi-related: You could build a much better version of the weapon specialist. It still wouldn't be good, but it would be better.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: EDJohnson on (04:57:51/08-29-11)
Like about debuffs, for instance. I don't even agree that they don't work well, but still, something that doesn't work as well as something else isn't the same as something that doesn't work, period. You seem very averse to making that distinction.

As a very magically oriented person, I will totally make the call that debuffs as a MAIN function is a less efficient method than say Stun Bolting people. This is from someone that had a character that used Agony as their signature spell for their entire career.

The main problem with Debuffs revolves around Drain and Sustaining. First, you have to cast a spell and take the drain. Sure, an Illusion is usually easy to drain, but a Health spell like Decreased Attribute or Reflexes... just not very practical usually, as they require touch. The drain is also higher for those in general. Second, the mage has to sustain it. You COULD get a sustaining focus, but it has to be in contact of the target. If you have a mage sustaining a bunch of debuffs, assuming they soaked the drain, then they are not doing what most runner teams want mages to do: throw fireballs.

UmaroVI has done a good job for the most part, and he has specifically designed these characters for MISSIONS, NOT general role play. These are the characters that get stuff done. A debuff in place of a fireball is usually not going to get enough done, but I will also be the first to admit a well placed Chaotic World is terrific if you can take the drain and hold it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cass100199 on (08:31:17/08-29-11)
Does someone have a link to a chargen or spreadsheet that incorporates Way of the Adept?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (09:49:02/08-29-11)
The problem with debuffs isn't always the debuffs themselves, its the existence of stunbolt and stunball.  Unconscious is a 100% debuff to most dice polls.  The fact that you can overcast stunbolt just about every IP and still not feel the drain makes it hard to want to spend your action on a spell that  drains off some reaction, or something similar.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (10:09:13/08-29-11)
I would like to see a pure (no cyber or bioware) adepts.

Regards
Rasmus

You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.



I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.

Taken from http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.msg68751#msg68751

EDIT: I'm not trying to put Umaro's mouth, I agree with his position that unaugmented adepts are unsupported in SR4A, and I think this is why none of the sample characters are an unaugmented adept.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Neurosis on (13:46:55/08-29-11)
Quote
As a very magically oriented person, I will totally make the call that debuffs as a MAIN function is a less efficient method than say Stun Bolting people. This is from someone that had a character that used Agony as their signature spell for their entire career.

Well sure, truth be told, every spell in the game is significantly less efficient than stunbolt, which I'm not especially happy about.

I think that most decent debuff spells occupy a tier between the hyper-efficiency of Stunbolt and the very very not of indirect combat spells.

That said, I think that having a spirit use its Confusion power on someone is a very strong option, and might be even more efficient in terms of time than telling the spirit to kill/incapacitate that person. It would certainly take less time. (Unless of course the spirit was a Spirit of Man, with Innate Spell (Stunbolt).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:07:48/08-29-11)
Quote
As a very magically oriented person, I will totally make the call that debuffs as a MAIN function is a less efficient method than say Stun Bolting people. This is from someone that had a character that used Agony as their signature spell for their entire career.

Well sure, truth be told, every spell in the game is significantly less efficient than stunbolt, which I'm not especially happy about.

I think that most decent debuff spells occupy a tier between the hyper-efficiency of Stunbolt and the very very not of indirect combat spells.

That said, I think that having a spirit use its Confusion power on someone is a very strong option, and might be even more efficient in terms of time than telling the spirit to kill/incapacitate that person. It would certainly take less time. (Unless of course the spirit was a Spirit of Man, with Innate Spell (Stunbolt).

Every combat-oriented (by that I mean, "that you cast on your enemies to win fights") spell in the game is less efficient than Stunbolt/Stunball for taking down living targets that you can see. Indirect spells have a niche - nonliving targets, and AEing people you can't see. Debuff spells don't.

The reason Confusion sees little use is because Fear is so drastically much better. Make an opposed test, winning makes your target take a dice pool penalty? Or make the same opposed test, winning makes your target run away for longer than most fights last?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:32:42/08-29-11)
Largely in response to Neurosis, but also some of the other comments:

One of the things I really, really hate about the SR4A samole characters is the wide range of power level. If all the characters were like the weapons specialist, it wouldn't be that bad - at least you'd be fine if everyone played archetypes. But if the Weapons Specialist is in a group with the Street Samurai (or many of the other better ones), it's probably going to become clear very quickly who picked the good sample character and who picked the bad one.

For this reason I tried to keep the power level of the Archetypes as uniform as I can possibly manage. One of the things this means is that some character types HAVE to be excluded, because they cannot coexist with others. Putting in, for example, an unaugmented mundane character would me to sandbag everyone else down quite a lot, in order to avoid them being overshadowed - which is why there isn't one. Yes, I could make one, yes, they wouldn't "not work," they would just "be less good than everyone else," but simply put - it isn't very fun to play the blatantly less effective shadowrunner because you thought Covert Ops Specialist sounded cool.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:10:31/08-29-11)
As promised, more archetypes. In particular, they round out the numbers of each metatype, leaving 4 of each (except dwarves, of which there are still only 2). Also, more adepts. There were some requests for a more rigging-focused character, which the Info Savant is (for mundane rigging, see the Mercenary Rigger).

Martial Artist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K7lVWbazjXnIGHziwUufJbzsZGGgMSTnNj4WS5dJXdM/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept focused on melee combat and social skills.
Former Neoprimitive (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RL6OPk6YgliUZ3MaFSZ-MnCCsnoWl8296HB1LV6DmuI/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept who uses archaic throwing weapons to great effect.
Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FtD-p3YhRoczHXMV0Dgqy19KeweeTvDrwVdzDtsngWQ/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CK2incEP), a human augmented adept focused on mastery of pistols.
Magical Rocker (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PJhEQj13rguJr9cmlp9dGvTYvMrsr1qGTZTJLTasDJY/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CN2OnoYN), a human magician focused on flashy combat magic and rocking out.
Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Q8VswsnvVSLoaLuw9G9KpRxU5AphE3hzCSTZNljteI/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CJH4zqsI), an ork technomancer focused on rigging, with hacking secondary.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Neurosis on (21:51:59/08-29-11)
Largely in response to Neurosis, but also some of the other comments:

One of the things I really, really hate about the SR4A samole characters is the wide range of power level. If all the characters were like the weapons specialist, it wouldn't be that bad - at least you'd be fine if everyone played archetypes. But if the Weapons Specialist is in a group with the Street Samurai (or many of the other better ones), it's probably going to become clear very quickly who picked the good sample character and who picked the bad one.

For this reason I tried to keep the power level of the Archetypes as uniform as I can possibly manage. One of the things this means is that some character types HAVE to be excluded, because they cannot coexist with others. Putting in, for example, an unaugmented mundane character would me to sandbag everyone else down quite a lot, in order to avoid them being overshadowed - which is why there isn't one. Yes, I could make one, yes, they wouldn't "not work," they would just "be less good than everyone else," but simply put - it isn't very fun to play the blatantly less effective shadowrunner because you thought Covert Ops Specialist sounded cool.

I see your point.

As promised, more archetypes. In particular, they round out the numbers of each metatype, leaving 4 of each (except dwarves, of which there are still only 2). Also, more adepts. There were some requests for a more rigging-focused character, which the Info Savant is (for mundane rigging, see the Mercenary Rigger).

Martial Artist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K7lVWbazjXnIGHziwUufJbzsZGGgMSTnNj4WS5dJXdM/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept focused on melee combat and social skills.
Former Neoprimitive (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RL6OPk6YgliUZ3MaFSZ-MnCCsnoWl8296HB1LV6DmuI/edit?hl=en_US), a troll augmented adept who uses archaic throwing weapons to great effect.
Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FtD-p3YhRoczHXMV0Dgqy19KeweeTvDrwVdzDtsngWQ/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CK2incEP), a human augmented adept focused on mastery of pistols.
Magical Rocker (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PJhEQj13rguJr9cmlp9dGvTYvMrsr1qGTZTJLTasDJY/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CN2OnoYN), a human magician focused on flashy combat magic and rocking out.
Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Q8VswsnvVSLoaLuw9G9KpRxU5AphE3hzCSTZNljteI/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CJH4zqsI), an ork technomancer focused on rigging, with hacking secondary.

Like everything in SR, needs more dwarves, but good work.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: _-Target-_ on (23:06:15/08-29-11)
While an elf rather than a human, that's the Technoshaman.

Ok I will check him out.. I assumed he was a technomancer that I don't understand how to play atm lol
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (01:35:27/08-30-11)
I would like to see a pure (no cyber or bioware) adepts.

Regards
Rasmus

You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.



I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.

Taken from http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.msg68751#msg68751

EDIT: I'm not trying to put Umaro's mouth, I agree with his position that unaugmented adepts are unsupported in SR4A, and I think this is why none of the sample characters are an unaugmented adept.

Yes, I have figured that out, but it would still be fun to see an adept build along those lines (I just like the concept of a pure adept).
Maybe a Troll archer or a ork melee specialist. I wouldn't mind if the adept was a mystical adept build along those lines.

Regards
Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:02:56/08-30-11)
There's some discussion of that on the Dumpshock thread, if you are interested in pure adepts. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35587&st=100

In particular, Pugilist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tkoofJpzjIE_8GOUc1-ERPXq1f40saYIAVVH693W0mw/edit?authkey=CKf64LIO) is an example of a pure adept - however, this character relies on using the Martial Arts rules from Arsenal to function (which are not missions-legal), and of course would be better off as a pure adept (also, as an orc or troll).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Glyph on (00:25:09/08-31-11)
My own try at a close combat adept built without bioware or the martial arts rules is in that thread UmaroVI just linked to.  He's fairly functional.  It's not that adepts are that bad, per se, it's just that most adept builds can be improved with some augmentations. 

The best close combat adept, if you are doing it without 'ware, is to be a weapons adept with one of those "Ways".  Less stuff you absolutely have to buy with power points than the unarmed version, a discount on the priciest powers, and you can add weapon foci to the mix.  Plus, two-weapon style is brutal, and with a level of counterstrike, you can take your extra hits to pump up your attacks, too.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (06:41:18/08-31-11)
The other thing to keep in mind is that close-combat characters in general are helped a huge amount by Martial Arts, and adepts are helped a not-insignificant amount by Ways - neither of which are Missions-legal, which contributes to their problems in this context.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cantor on (15:39:33/08-31-11)
I've had a good look at a few of these archetypes, and I have a few points to make.

1. Negative Qualities. I hate Negative Qualities. A lot of people seem to take them thinking that they're free points. Sure, an optimized character at creation can probably use the points to make sure they have that one important skill at 6, or they can make sure they've got  at least one contact. I really don't see the need for every character to max out their negative qualities. Especially on things that a lot of GMs don't know how to incorporate into the game appropriately. This isn't really a critique of your builds, but of the ethereal nature of some of these qualities (SINner and the ones that require Composure tests) really seem to be taken as a means to exploit weak GMs.

2. Securetech PPP System and Form Fitting body armour. I know that any runner worth his salt takes these every time. They're amazing. Why don't we just add these into the basic stats of all runners and let them be on a level playing field. Autoincludes suck.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (16:32:41/08-31-11)
I've had a good look at a few of these archetypes, and I have a few points to make.

1. Negative Qualities. I hate Negative Qualities. A lot of people seem to take them thinking that they're free points. Sure, an optimized character at creation can probably use the points to make sure they have that one important skill at 6, or they can make sure they've got  at least one contact. I really don't see the need for every character to max out their negative qualities. Especially on things that a lot of GMs don't know how to incorporate into the game appropriately. This isn't really a critique of your builds, but of the ethereal nature of some of these qualities (SINner and the ones that require Composure tests) really seem to be taken as a means to exploit weak GMs.

2. Securetech PPP System and Form Fitting body armour. I know that any runner worth his salt takes these every time. They're amazing. Why don't we just add these into the basic stats of all runners and let them be on a level playing field. Autoincludes suck.

Negative Qualities give a character plenty of hooks. As both a player and a GM, I love Negative Qualities.

Saying that they're taken as a means to exploit weak GMs is a pretty broad statement. Perhaps people in your group use them like that, but critiquing a build based on such a generalization? That's too far. Many people take Negative Qualities because they want their character to have those Qualities - not for the points, per se, and certainly not because they hope to put one over on the GM.

Specifically citing the Composure Test Negative Qualities - they give an actual mechanic. Those are less vague than many of the Qualities. "Under X circumstance, you're required to make a Composure Check to do Y." That's quite specific, and it would really require a truly pushover GM to avoid them.

As for "auto-includes" - this comes up a lot around here. I don't know if it is a symptom of the prevalence of MMOGs, or what, but nothing says you have to use something just because it's the most effective or efficient way to do something. There is a lot of wiggle room between a "gimp" character and an utterly maximized character - if you are making build decisions on substance alone, then you are treading into munchkin territory. 

There's nothing wrong with trying to make your character as effective as possible, but taking gear/skills/stats/whatever when you don't want it, simply because it's "the best"... that is powergaming. If it's what you want to do, go for it - but it's not a flaw in the design. Some gear is better than others, yes, but that doesn't make it bad. This isn't an environment that requires everything to be equal.

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cantor on (16:41:36/08-31-11)
I'm not critiquing the builds. I said that. I'm critiquing the negative quality systems. I just don't like them.

As for the Composure qualities, I understand that they have a mechanic. I never said they didn't. I just don't like the mechanic. It's still a GM call to ask for the test, and I see this as an area of argument from min/maxers. Also, the character can quite easily build so that they can always pass those tests. Positive qualities don't have these kinds of tests. They just give you a benefit. I don't mind the flat negatives quite as much (incompetent for example).

My comment on autoincludes there is pretty sarcastic, except for claiming they suck. Maybe that didn't come across. I really hate it when NOT taking some piece of gear in an RPG is considered a handycap. It's particularly irksome when it comes from a splatbook.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:49:31/08-31-11)
On 1, I've already stated my opinion about negative qualities in general in the intro, but I would argue that the negative qualities like Poor Self Control are good (and I actually wish there were more like that, and less "get a point refund for not being a different type of character" negative qualities), because they help define a character's personality. Also, they have a nice clearly defined effect - if you don't want to do X, you have to make a roll, or do X anyways.

On 2, I completely agree that this is poor game design, but my goal is to make sample characters, not fix every poor design choice in SR4. If I were making SR5, then yes, I would fix "gotta-haves" like that.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:54:18/08-31-11)
Also, Cantor, there are much easier ways to powergame your Negative Qualities, if you really care to. If I was trying to take 35 points of negative qualities that I was sure the GM couldn't shaft me with, I would stay away from open-ended things like Sinner or Poor Self Control, and go for stuff that has defined but largely irrelevant mechanical effects. For example, the infamous Incompetence: Stuff I Sucked At Anyways, every non-hacker taking Scorched and Sensitive Neural Structure (both of which are explicitly defined as giving 5 points to non-hackers/technomancers in the book), etc, everyone and their dog having Addiction to Betel, etc.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cantor on (17:01:42/08-31-11)
Quote
All of the characters have 35 points of Negative Qualities, with an emphasis on “personality flaws.” This is to give players immediate hooks they can use to get in character, and to make the Archetypes more distinctive. If you don’t have time to make a whole character from scratch and want to instead personalize an Archetype before play, swapping negative qualities for other ones is a good idea.

I think this is the crux of it for me. IRL my negative qualities are not the things I use to go about my daily business. I'm not athletic, so I don't do athletics. I don't think of Negative Qualities shouldn't be the thing you use to make a character come alive. There are contacts, skills and positive qualities that can all accomplish the same things.

I would applaud you for avoiding addictions. They are boring. Any decent GM would criticize a samurai with Scorched, so you're not exactly a hero for doing that.

I disagree about Incompetence though. I've seen it used intelligently to mitigate potential brokenness. I've seen a character with max Strength take Incompetence: Blades just to make it that much harder for himself to deal lethal damage with that Strength.

I really want to stress that I love what you're doing and I applaud your efforts so far. I just felt I needed to throw in my two cents here and there when it comes to making characters.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (17:12:26/08-31-11)
I think we just disagree about that one, then - I find memorable characters are often defined as much, if not more, by their flaws - especially character flaws - than their strengths.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (17:14:31/08-31-11)
I get what you're saying, Cantor, but a character in the Cyberpunk genre really shouldn't be defined solely on their positive traits.

There are no Paladins in Shadowrun...and if there were, they wouldn't be running the Shadows.

I mean, there's no rule saying you have to have Negative Qualities, if you don't want them. But it makes for a very goody-goody character. No flaws, no personal or personality problems, no enemies, no weaknesses...not so much as an allergy to cats?

Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish. Case was a cripple and a burned out drug addict. Molly Millions got her start in a meat-puppet brothel. Johnny Mnemonic carved out his memories to get more RAM. Turner is so paranoid he shoots an innocent man for no reason.

Again, not trying to say you have to like Negative Qualities - just that they're more than just a source of free points to be exploited.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (17:57:05/08-31-11)
"There's no Angels in the Shadows, possibly none left in the world at all.  We all do things only for selfish reasons." (http://canray.deviantart.com/gallery/683630)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Neurosis on (02:59:35/09-01-11)
I think we just disagree about that one, then - I find memorable characters are often defined as much, if not more, by their flaws - especially character flaws - than their strengths.

Strongly agree. Negative Qualities have generally been great roleplay enhancers for my little group. And taking 35 points worth makes it more likely that you will actually take something that strengthens your character (in the literary, not mechanical sense) while you're trying to strengthen your character (in that other, numerical sense).

Quote
Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish. Case was a cripple and a burned out drug addict. Molly Millions got her start in a meat-puppet brothel. Johnny Mnemonic carved out his memories to get more RAM. Turner is so paranoid he shoots an innocent man for no reason.

Again, strongly agree.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Phylos Fett on (04:33:15/09-01-11)
Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish.

Deckard? Rick Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (06:33:41/09-01-11)
Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish.

Deckard? Rick Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Yes, the Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?/Bladerunner.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Phylos Fett on (06:39:52/09-01-11)
Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish.

Deckard? Rick Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Yes, the Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?/Bladerunner.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Ah - so it's from the movie. Cool. Explains why it click with me as being from the novel.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (15:20:37/09-01-11)
Some cyberpunk archetypes from literature:
Deckard had a drinking problem, and his ex-wife called him "Shushi" because he was such a cold fish.

Deckard? Rick Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Yes, the Deckard from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?/Bladerunner.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Ah - so it's from the movie. Cool. Explains why it click with me as being from the novel.


Yeah, I can't keep the Deckard from the book and the movie separate in my head. Philip K. Dick himself said, several times, that Harrison Ford's portrayal of Deckard was perfect, though...so I think it still works.

Either way, book or movie, I don't think you can get a lot more Cyberpunk than Deckard.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Critias on (15:26:35/09-01-11)
There are no Paladins in Shadowrun...and if there were, they wouldn't be running the Shadows.
Well, not counting the ones from the Tir, yeah.  ;)

I'm a tremendous advocate of well thought out Negative Qualities, for the simple reason that there should be something wrong with you to take this job.

If someone was completely mentally stable, didn't have deadbeat friends he lets manipulate him, didn't have a social disorder, didn't have a tragic past that haunted him, didn't have a unique medical problem, didn't have tremendously powerful enemies that make him poisonous to be around, wasn't tangled up in organized crime, didn't claw his way from abject SINless poverty, didn't have an issue with authority figures, etc, etc, etc, and still had 400+ build points to spend on himself -- why isn't he holding down a stable, legal, regularly paying job somewhere?

Why isn't your street mage teaching at a college or working full time in Thaumaturgical research?  Why isn't your combat medic riding in a DocWagon chopper or operating at a hospital?  Why isn't your street samurai Adam Jensen'ing it up somewhere as the head of corporate security someplace?  What reason has your hacker got for not raking in the nuyen from a cubicle somewhere, relaxing in air conditioning as he plugs his brain into a computer instead of getting shot at?

There should be something wrong, either fundamentally, socially, or tragically, with your character for him to be running the shadows.  And Negative Qualities are a terrific way to define that "something," to hash out the details with your GM, and to make sure that the game remains nominally balanced regardless of what your "something" is.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: baronspam on (15:45:37/09-01-11)
There are no Paladins in Shadowrun...and if there were, they wouldn't be running the Shadows.
Well, not counting the ones from the Tir, yeah.  ;)

I'm a tremendous advocate of well thought out Negative Qualities, for the simple reason that there should be something wrong with you to take this job.

If someone was completely mentally stable, didn't have deadbeat friends he lets manipulate him, didn't have a social disorder, didn't have a tragic past that haunted him, didn't have a unique medical problem, didn't have tremendously powerful enemies that make him poisonous to be around, wasn't tangled up in organized crime, didn't claw his way from abject SINless poverty, didn't have an issue with authority figures, etc, etc, etc, and still had 400+ build points to spend on himself -- why isn't he holding down a stable, legal, regularly paying job somewhere?

Why isn't your street mage teaching at a college or working full time in Thaumaturgical research?  Why isn't your combat medic riding in a DocWagon chopper or operating at a hospital?  Why isn't your street samurai Adam Jensen'ing it up somewhere as the head of corporate security someplace?  What reason has your hacker got for not raking in the nuyen from a cubicle somewhere, relaxing in air conditioning as he plugs his brain into a computer instead of getting shot at?

There should be something wrong, either fundamentally, socially, or tragically, with your character for him to be running the shadows.  And Negative Qualities are a terrific way to define that "something," to hash out the details with your GM, and to make sure that the game remains nominally balanced regardless of what your "something" is.

This is spot on.  One of the hardest parts of coming up with a good backstory is "why doesn't this guy have a straigth job?  He has skills falling out of his ears, why doesn't he have something with a medical plan?"  Generally, you have either been burned by someone and your on the lam, or something makes you not work and play well with others.. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cass100199 on (19:25:09/09-06-11)
I think I'm gonna have to load these into Chummer so I can just print them off or manipulate ad needed. Whoever created that program should get hired by catalyst.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: LostProxy on (21:04:25/09-06-11)
I think I'm gonna have to load these into Chummer so I can just print them off or manipulate ad needed. Whoever created that program should get hired by catalyst.

I've seen this mentioned around. What is this chummer program?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Comely on (21:16:20/09-06-11)
I think I'm gonna have to load these into Chummer so I can just print them off or manipulate ad needed. Whoever created that program should get hired by catalyst.

I've seen this mentioned around. What is this chummer program?

It is the best character generator I h ave been able to find for SR4E

http://www.dndjunkie.com/dev/chummer/Chummer.zip
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: theKernel on (22:29:47/09-06-11)
That was amazinggggggg (^-^)b
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (06:36:49/09-07-11)
There are no Paladins in Shadowrun...and if there were, they wouldn't be running the Shadows.
Well, not counting the ones from the Tir, yeah.  ;)

I'm a tremendous advocate of well thought out Negative Qualities, for the simple reason that there should be something wrong with you to take this job.

If someone was completely mentally stable, didn't have deadbeat friends he lets manipulate him, didn't have a social disorder, didn't have a tragic past that haunted him, didn't have a unique medical problem, didn't have tremendously powerful enemies that make him poisonous to be around, wasn't tangled up in organized crime, didn't claw his way from abject SINless poverty, didn't have an issue with authority figures, etc, etc, etc, and still had 400+ build points to spend on himself -- why isn't he holding down a stable, legal, regularly paying job somewhere?

Why isn't your street mage teaching at a college or working full time in Thaumaturgical research?  Why isn't your combat medic riding in a DocWagon chopper or operating at a hospital?  Why isn't your street samurai Adam Jensen'ing it up somewhere as the head of corporate security someplace?  What reason has your hacker got for not raking in the nuyen from a cubicle somewhere, relaxing in air conditioning as he plugs his brain into a computer instead of getting shot at?

There should be something wrong, either fundamentally, socially, or tragically, with your character for him to be running the shadows.  And Negative Qualities are a terrific way to define that "something," to hash out the details with your GM, and to make sure that the game remains nominally balanced regardless of what your "something" is.

Very well said.
They should quote you that in the core rulebook  ;D

Regards
Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: redTroll on (17:06:33/09-08-11)
This article helped enormously with my character generation and gave me ideas for other characters although it would be a stretch to improve on these. It needs a sticky!!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Jackleg Rooster on (14:09:26/09-10-11)
quick question...looking through the Trog build, I noticed a 4 in palming. what would he be using this for ideally?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:16:28/09-10-11)
Hiding the grenade-launcher pistol in his pants.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (14:26:41/09-10-11)
Hiding the grenade-launcher pistol in his pants.
Troll Pornomancer?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:27:33/09-10-11)
No, he's just happy to see you.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Deliverator on (14:44:20/09-10-11)
He is a troll, he could palm a volkswagen...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:02:59/09-10-11)
He could also stick a long, thick, vibrating ... sword down his pants.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: eshoup1 on (17:13:10/09-10-11)
No joke, that happened at my game the other day. The troll at the table hid a vibrosword in his pants. And with a crappy roll by the GM was not harassed by Kight Errant for it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Kontact on (06:53:13/09-13-11)
Lots of excellent builds Umaro. :)

Something you might want to consider is putting aside knowledge points for language skills on account of this oft-overlooked rule.

Quote
Charisma-linked Skills and Language
When a character attempts to influence someone using another lan-
guage, her persuasive ability is limited by her ability to convey ideas
and concepts in that language. To reflect this, whenever a character
uses a Charisma-linked Social skill to interact with another character
in a non-native tongue, the Social skill dice used may not exceed the
character’s Language skill rating.

So, depending on where the game is taking place, characters might want different language skills to assist with their lying and whatnot.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (06:58:33/09-13-11)
The points set aside for hobbies and such can also be used for languages, but it might be a good idea to mention something about changing the languages under the "mission-specific" thing. At least in missions, people who are all "English? Pffft, we negotiate in my native tongue" tend to be speaking Sperethiel, Or'zet, or (rarely) Japanese, which is why those are pretty common.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:46:52/09-14-11)
I recently learned that a Cyber Holdout Pistol is not a Pistol, but rather an Exotic Range Weapon. I fixed all the archetypes who used cyber-implant guns to either keep it with less dice, replace it with something else, or have the right skill. I also included more Blade weapons under the Bad Enough Trog's suggested purchases.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: PittsburghRPGA on (17:10:50/09-20-11)
I'm really liking these as sample PCs.

Any chance of getting them in chummer format?

Thanks,

Eric
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Captain Karzak on (17:57:11/09-20-11)
These archetypes have been a brilliant aid to me. I recently GMed Shadowrun for the first time ever, and it was such a relief to have a group of PC's who were all quite capable, and credible in the areas that their character concept implied. This is as opposed to the game where I am a player, where there are RIFTS(TM) style levels of divergence in character capabilities.

These archetypes are soooooo much better than the book-stated sample characters.

Thanks for making these.

The advice sections are also really excellent - no surprise, considering who wrote them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: wylie on (15:21:12/09-26-11)
The first three of those are unfortunately not supported characters in SR4A. I might include a more rigging-focused technomancer at some point.

Unaugmented mundanes just don't work, especially not people like the Weapon Specialist who try to be good at meatspace combat. If you want the appeal of "looks like a normal dude, not like a killer cyborg," try the Spook.

Crafting is banned in Missions.

Debuffs unfortunately just don't work. It's just as hard to debuff someone as it is to KO them.

I disagree, on a small point. if the unaugmented mundane specializes, he can survive. I know this as I have run a PI/ martial artist with no cyber or magic. if skills are all over the place(2 & 3s), with nothing to back them up, then yes there will be a problem. focus on a few skills and the character should do fine
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (13:19:16/09-29-11)
Quote
On the issue of contacts-
I've always found the contact list to be the most frustrating thing of making the character.  "Realistically" (snicker) unless each character grew up in a cave she should have dozens if not hundreds of 2 to 3 BP contacts. Every skill had to be learned, and many came from teachers (whether literal or just folk she hung around with). She learned a language or two? From whom - family? and family and the friends of family aren't contacts?

gah.

I've made comments of a couple of house rules for my table, but this is the one I'd change the most. You get 1 contact point per BP. At least half must be in 4 point or lower contacts. And at least two must be family (or foster family).  But that's just me.

I think the theory is yes you might know 50 people to some degree, but contacts are the people you know who can be useful in your chosen profession of being a shadowrunner.  I could call my childhood friend right now, and he'd be willing to help me any way he could.  The thing is unless I was asking him about a TV show he liked, how to overcome addiction, or the shipping policies of the company he works for he wouldn't be a help.  And for the latter part that is just the GM writing something into the adventure it wouldn't be an official contact.

That childhood friend just might work for the Corp that you're running against. He could get you inside the building, especially if he's willing to pretend to be a 'hostage'.   ;D
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (13:50:38/10-04-11)
Hi

I have tried to upgrade the Ronin archtype to a 500 point build.
My main issue was how to spend the extra points. To upgrade a cybersamurai I think the most needed thing is cash. So I tried to optimize the money for the character and bought some expensive cyber- and bioware because that is the road I would travel with karma.

Have I optimized the character smart enough?

But any inputs are welcome  ;D

Gilette
Race: Ork (Low-Light Vision, +3 Body, +2 Strength, -1 Charisma & -1 Logic).

Attributes: Body 5(6), Agility 2 (3), Reaction 5, Strength 3(4), Charisma 2, Intuition 5, Logic 2, Willpower 5, Edge 5, Essence 0.9, Initiative 14, IP 3.
For most tests use the average attribute (in parentheses). For tests only using the cyberarm Strength 10, Body 11 & Agility 9. For tests using careful coordination of the whole body use the unaugmented attributes.
Composure: 7      Judge Intentions: 7   Lifting & Carrying: 9   Memory: 7

Physical Condition Track: 12
Stun Condition Track: 11

Positive Qualities: Aptitude (Automatics), Born Rich, Restricted Gear (Cyberarm).
Negative Qualities: Poor Self Control (Vindictive), Dept (Owns 37.500 nuyen).

Skills: Stealth Group 4 (Palming, Infiltration (+1 from Reflex Recorder), Shadowing, Disguise), Athletics Group 4 (Running, Climbing, Swimming, Gymnastics), Influence Group 4 (Con, Etiquette, Negotiation, Leadership), Automatics (SMG) 7, Unarmed (Martial Arts) 4 (+1 from Cyberarm & +1 from Reflex Recorder), Perception 4 (+3 from Attention Coprocessor), Intimidation 4, Pilot Ground Vehicle 4, Dodge 1.
Language Skills: English N, Ort’zet 2, Mandarine 4 (from Skillsoft).
Knowledge Skills: Area Knowledge Seattle 6, Security Systems 4, Police Procedures 3, Seattle Gangs 4, Firearms 2.

Contacts: Weapon Specialist L2/C4, Street Doc L2/C2. (Charisma x2 free contacts).

Cyberware: Wired Reflexes R2, Reaction Enhancer R2, Attention Coprocessor R3, Obvious Right Cyberarm (Customized, Alpha Grade. +5 Strength, +6 Body, +3 Agility. +4 Bulk Modification, Optimization: Ultimate Champion. Enhancements: Armor 3, Agility 3, Body 2, Strength 2, Cyberarm Gyrostabilizer. +1 Physical Condition Monitor).
Cyberware Notes: All Cyberware WiFi is turned off and they are controlled by DNI. WiFi only turned on in a safe environment for upgrading of firmware etc.

Bioware: Trauma Damper, Reflex Recorder (Infiltration), Reflex Recorder (Unarmed), Skillwire Expert System.

Lifestyle: 1 month of Squatter (Starting cash (2D6+2)x20 nuyen).

Weapons: Ingram Smartgun X (Skinlinked, Gas-Vent 3, Personalized Grip, Chameleon Coating, Heavy Barrel), Ingram SuperMach 100 (Skinnlinked, External Smartgun System, Gas Vent 3 System, Personalized Grip, Chameleon Coasting, Improved Rangefinder), ARES HVBR (Skinlinked, Personalized Grip, Barrel Extension, Gas Vent 3 System, Firing Selection Change: FA, Improved Rangefinder), Shock Glove (Personalized Grip, Custom Look 2), Ceramic Knife.

Armor: Form Fitting Body Armor (6/2 with Chemical Protection R6, only 3/1 encumbrance), SecureTech PPP System Shin Guards (0/1), SecureTech PPP System Vital Protector (1/1), SecureTech PPP System Forearm Guards (0/1), SecureTech PPP System Arm and Leg Casings (1/1), Vashon Island Steampunk Line Overcoat (3/3 with Nonconductivity R6), Vashon Island Steampunk Line Vest (2/2), Vashon Island Steampunk Line Slackers (1/1), Vashon Island Steampunk Line Blouse (1/1). Total Armor 15/13.

Commlink: Metalink with Vector Xim OS (Running Public to displaying fake ID & Licenses. Not used on runs), Sony Emperor (Skinlinked. Upgraded respons to 4. System 4, Firewall 3, Signal 3. Running in hidden mode for shadowrunning biz), Novatech Navi OS (Optimization: Browse), Program Powersuit (Analyze 3, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, Purge 4, Scan 2, Encrypt 1), Pilot Agent Bob Rank 4 (Bob analyze for intrusion an sound an alarm if any is detected).

Vehicle: Honda Spirit (updated with Amenties: Squatter).

Drugs: 4x Nitro, 3x Novacoke.

Gear: Fake SIN R4, License R4 (Drivers License), License R4 (Ingram Smartgun X),License R4 (Cyberware – Remember the Gyrostabilizer is illegal), Certified Credstick (Balance 0 nuyen), Subvocal Microphone (for Commlink), Glasses R3 (Skinlinked with Image Link, Vision Magnification & Vision Enhancement R3), Contact Lenses R3 (Skinlinked with Thermographic, Flare Compensation, Smartlink), Ear Buds R2 (Skinlinked with Audio Enhancement R3, Spatial Recognizer), Microsensor with Laser Rangefinder (Skinlinked), Microsensor with Motion Sensor  (Skinlinked), Microsensor with Radio Signal Scanner R6 (Skinlinked), Simrig, Linguasoft (Mandarine R4), 200 regular ammo for SMG, 200 regular ammo for battle rifle, 100 Ex-explosive ammo for battle rifle, 80 Gel rounds ammo for SMG.

Regards
Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:19:57/10-04-11)
I don't see any major problems - looks like you mostly focused on expanding his skillsets, which is a sensible way to go. With 500 bp I might try to dig up 25 to hardcap his Intuition score.

Also, the dodge 1 is redundant. Gymnastics covers active dodge, and Unarmed covers melee passive dodge.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (00:30:15/10-05-11)
Thanks.

What about martial arts?
Are there any of those that would be good for this type of character?
(It is not for missions).

Oh, and why is it more important to hardcap Intuition than reaction? I quess you suggest it to boost initiative?

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Captain Karzak on (13:42:28/10-05-11)

Oh, and why is it more important to hardcap Intuition than reaction? I quess you suggest it to boost initiative?

Rasmus

You've already hit the augmented maximum for reaction, you just wrote your stats wrong. You have both Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers at rating 2. Therefore your reflex score should have read 5(9).

Intuition is a much harder attribute to augment, so if you really have the points to spare, hardcapping it might be okay. It helps with a variety of things: perception, half the skills in the stealth group, noticing illusions, resisting possession, initiative. Still, make sure there's no other skills you need before you start spending fist-fulls of BP doing this.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:31:48/10-05-11)
For anyone who doesn't use FA weapons, Pentjak-Silat+Wildcat for +2 to hit with called shots for extra DV. For anyone who does, Krav Maga for Take Aim as a free action. The Iaijutsu manuever is great. Firefight/Krav Maga to reduce the "attacker in melee combat" modifier is alright; you can then walk right up to people and shoot them in the face for a net +2 to hit (point-blank) without taking the -3 penalty that normally negates it.

Full Offense (if your GM allows it to work RAW, meaning with ranged attacks), Kick Attack (note you can apply it to defense), Two Weapon Style (and use a second shock glove, or a hardliner glove offhand), and (if your GM allows you to convert the Shock Glove to lethal with it) Vicious Blow are all useful, but not super amazing for the Ronin.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (15:22:50/10-05-11)

Oh, and why is it more important to hardcap Intuition than reaction? I quess you suggest it to boost initiative?

Rasmus

You've already hit the augmented maximum for reaction, you just wrote your stats wrong. You have both Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers at rating 2. Therefore your reflex score should have read 5(9).

Intuition is a much harder attribute to augment, so if you really have the points to spare, hardcapping it might be okay. It helps with a variety of things: perception, half the skills in the stealth group, noticing illusions, resisting possession, initiative. Still, make sure there's no other skills you need before you start spending fist-fulls of BP doing this.

Offcause. Silly me  ::)
Thanx.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (15:23:41/10-05-11)
For anyone who doesn't use FA weapons, Pentjak-Silat+Wildcat for +2 to hit with called shots for extra DV. For anyone who does, Krav Maga for Take Aim as a free action. The Iaijutsu manuever is great. Firefight/Krav Maga to reduce the "attacker in melee combat" modifier is alright; you can then walk right up to people and shoot them in the face for a net +2 to hit (point-blank) without taking the -3 penalty that normally negates it.

Full Offense (if your GM allows it to work RAW, meaning with ranged attacks), Kick Attack (note you can apply it to defense), Two Weapon Style (and use a second shock glove, or a hardliner glove offhand), and (if your GM allows you to convert the Shock Glove to lethal with it) Vicious Blow are all useful, but not super amazing for the Ronin.

Ok, I will try and look into those and maybe take them.
Thanx.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Phylos Fett on (09:13:12/10-12-11)
I'm probably missing something fairly straightforward, but is there a reason that the Archetypes have both contact lenses and glasses for their vision modifications?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bigity on (09:19:25/10-12-11)
Rainy days?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: kirk on (09:28:46/10-12-11)
I'm probably missing something fairly straightforward, but is there a reason that the Archetypes have both contact lenses and glasses for their vision modifications?
Availability. You can cram everything into the glasses, but you push the availability above what starting characters are allowed in doing so.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Phylos Fett on (12:13:35/10-12-11)
I'm probably missing something fairly straightforward, but is there a reason that the Archetypes have both contact lenses and glasses for their vision modifications?
Availability. You can cram everything into the glasses, but you push the availability above what starting characters are allowed in doing so.

Cheers. I knew it'd be something obvious!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Pyromaster13 on (01:02:11/10-14-11)
How does the transhuman mystic have a natural logic attribute of 7 when I see know sign of the exceptional atribute quality.  I checked the metatypes and dwarves only go up to a natural maximum of 6, unless there was an errata change.  And if so, please point me to a link that show the logic change.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Glyph on (03:18:46/10-14-11)
How does the transhuman mystic have a natural logic attribute of 7 when I see know sign of the exceptional atribute quality.  I checked the metatypes and dwarves only go up to a natural maximum of 6, unless there was an errata change.  And if so, please point me to a link that show the logic change.
He has the genetic optimization for Logic (look under bioware on the character sheet, although it is actually geneware).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Pyromaster13 on (03:38:59/10-14-11)
How does the transhuman mystic have a natural logic attribute of 7 when I see know sign of the exceptional atribute quality.  I checked the metatypes and dwarves only go up to a natural maximum of 6, unless there was an errata change.  And if so, please point me to a link that show the logic change.
He has the genetic optimization for Logic (look under bioware on the character sheet, although it is actually geneware).

Ah, thank you sir.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Katrex on (12:40:04/10-23-11)
the dwarf mystic adept has 2.25 ess loss but a magic of 3... Or am I reaading it wrong.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:20:03/10-23-11)
I think you're forgetting that essence loss is the higher of bioware or cyberware, plus half the lower. So with 1.45 Cyberware and .8 Bioware, the transhuman mystic loses 1.45+.8/2=1.85 essence, not 2.25.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Katrex on (07:41:35/10-24-11)
Ah my bad i thought that had allready been done once.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Kaptain O on (09:45:33/10-31-11)
One of the characters has a spell called "Laser", where can I find that spell?  I looked in SR4A and SM and didn't see it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:10:28/10-31-11)
"Laser" is the default name of the single-target Elemental combat spell with the "Light" element; there's a table in Street Magic (but not a complete spell entry, which is why you didn't find it).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Sipowitz on (12:28:46/11-22-11)
Noticed this thread from your sig thought I would check it out

 After looking through it these characters don't feel very 'iconic' to me.  Sure you it them all nice and squared away system-wise, but idk, 'feel' just isn't there for me.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:21:24/12-02-11)
Whee, there is FINALLY SR4 errata. Mostly commas, but Threading got changed to be a free action rather than a non-action so I updated the technomancer stuff.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Katrex on (07:31:51/12-05-11)
Um speaking of technomancers... AS complex forms work just like programs... aren't they limited by system. So for the orc techno you have he couldn't run his complex forms at their maximum rating?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:03:37/12-05-11)
Nope, that's only for commlinks. System rating for technomancers is largely vestigial.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Black Sheep on (13:03:17/12-05-11)
Um speaking of technomancers... AS complex forms work just like programs... aren't they limited by system. So for the orc techno you have he couldn't run his complex forms at their maximum rating?
Complex Forms are specifically exempt from that limitation, which, as Umaro said, is why you can kind skimp on Logic.

BlackSheep
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: x6u on (10:05:35/12-08-11)
How come mental manipulation spells are banned in Missions?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (10:24:30/12-08-11)
How come mental manipulation spells are banned in Missions?

If you meant “why are these things banned”, you want to ask that question of Bull (and is more appropriate to ask in the Shadow Run Missions General Discussion Forum.

If you meant “how did you know these things are banned, they are not mentioned in the SRM S4 FAQ?” then I will direct you here:

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4035.msg54488#msg54488
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (10:45:32/12-08-11)
How come mental manipulation spells are banned in Missions?

If you meant “why are these things banned”, you want to ask that question of Bull (and is more appropriate to ask in the Shadow Run Missions General Discussion Forum.

If you meant “how did you know these things are banned, they are not mentioned in the SRM S4 FAQ?” then I will direct you here:

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4035.msg54488#msg54488

Weeeell crap.

Been playing a Pixie with Mob Mind for about 5 sessions now, and nobody in the group caught that.

Ah well, c'est la vie... and yeah, he's right. Way too easy-mode.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Katrex on (13:37:08/12-08-11)
No technomancers are specifically exempt from the limit based on response, which means system isn't limited by response, however programs are still limited by system. At least RAW. Imo technomancers need all the love they can get. :P
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:11:49/12-08-11)
Short version: CFs aren't programs, and so CFs don't have that limitation.

Evidence for this: CFs are explicitly listed as being capped by Resonance x2 (ever) and maximum purchase of Resonance. But System is also limited by Resonance, so neither of these limitations would make any sense at all if System also capped CFs.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: KaliaFerret on (12:18:42/12-11-11)
Question regarding the Technoshaman elf build. What source book is the Lone Star Strato-9 Drone from?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (12:46:25/12-11-11)
This Old Drone.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: x6u on (12:08:08/12-12-11)
Hmm, the dwarf combat mage is running more than double his magic in foci. Might be a problem if GM uses focus addiction rules from Digital Grimoire. Otherwise he's a beast!

Also, thanks Squee!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (13:54:25/12-12-11)
Hmm, the dwarf combat mage is running more than double his magic in foci. Might be a problem if GM uses focus addiction rules from Digital Grimoire. Otherwise he's a beast!

That's true.  However he's rolling 13 dice and needs only two hits.  The odds are greatly in his favor unless the GM asks for a roll every day or something.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: x6u on (20:23:48/12-22-11)
Oh yeah, what's an Overcoat? I noticed it on a few of the characters' gear loadouts but don't recall ever seeing it in print anywhere. What book is it in?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (22:13:01/12-22-11)
It's just "Clothing."
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (22:25:38/12-22-11)
Oh yeah, what's an Overcoat?
This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overcoat)

The Trenchcoat (infamous of film noir stories and movies) is a waterproof overcoat with an insulated lining.  The Lined Coat (Which is a "Duster" similar to those seen in Westerns that's found in SR4A's armour section) is also an Overcoat.

I have a Canadian Army Surplus Greatcoat (From the 1960s, I believe) that's very comfortable and surprisingly wind resistant, but prefer my modern nylon winter coat with insulation due to better pockets on the inside.  I also have a Swiss Army Surplus Mountain Greatcoat that I can't even put on unless it's -50 or less outside or else I'll cook in the bloody thing.  Finally, I have a Australian-style Duster that's oilsealed brown leather.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: x6u on (22:59:36/12-22-11)
Huh, that's what I figured. Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (23:06:26/12-22-11)
If it's black, synthleather, and they're wearing mirrorshades, taunt them for ripping off The Matrix.  :P
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:21:29/12-23-11)
It's Ruthenium coated, so they're actually ripping off Ghost in the Shell.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (11:25:25/12-23-11)
It's Ruthenium coated, so they're actually ripping off Ghost in the Shell.
I thought she had to be naked for that to work.

Or am I thinking of another Anime?  ;D
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: wizard_of_ozzy on (18:50:43/12-23-11)
It's Ruthenium coated, so they're actually ripping off Ghost in the Shell.
I thought she had to be naked for that to work.

Or am I thinking of another Anime?  ;D
He's referring to the re-make, I think, which has less nudity in it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (18:54:51/12-23-11)
WHO THE HELL THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA???

It's Anime, damnit.  Not made for kids!

...

Everything has to be PC and family friendly now, doesn't it.   >:(
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (19:01:24/12-23-11)
I was actually thinking of the TV series. Which is better than the movie (not that the movie is bad - the series is just better). You should watch it if you haven't already.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (19:03:50/12-23-11)
STILL working on Black Lagoon if you can believe it.  :(
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (20:50:25/12-23-11)
Black Lagoon is everything I want SR to be. Unfortunately this is off topic.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (02:06:36/12-24-11)
I have a Canadian Army Surplus Greatcoat (From the 1960s, I believe) that's very comfortable and surprisingly wind resistant, but prefer my modern nylon winter coat with insulation due to better pockets on the inside.  I also have a Swiss Army Surplus Mountain Greatcoat that I can't even put on unless it's -50 or less outside or else I'll cook in the bloody thing.  Finally, I have a Australian-style Duster that's oilsealed brown leather.

I am jealous of your overcoats.

I am less jealous of where you live, that you need them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (02:24:57/12-24-11)
I am jealous of your overcoats.

I am less jealous of where you live, that you need them.
And I can get more from my FLGS/Army Surplus Store!  That also sells authentic Kukris!  ;D
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: FastJack on (09:08:14/12-24-11)
I am jealous of your overcoats.

I am less jealous of where you live, that you need them.
And I can get more from my FLGS/Army Surplus Store!  That also sells authentic Kukris!  ;D
But no guns... ;)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: CanRay on (14:40:25/12-24-11)
I am jealous of your overcoats.

I am less jealous of where you live, that you need them.
And I can get more from my FLGS/Army Surplus Store!  That also sells authentic Kukris!  ;D
But no guns... ;)
Airsoft, actually, which requires getting a license harder to get than a firearms sales permit.  The Airsoft Import Permit is the same Permit required to store Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Pyromaster13 on (01:49:39/12-29-11)
I don't know if my math is correct, but on the combat hacker archetype 40 BP is spent on reaction to get it to a base of 5.  But with reaction enhancers and wired reflexes 2 that gives it an enhanced bonus to the cap at 9, but with a suprathyroid gland it gives it an additional +1 that's wasted.  Can't you drop reaction to base 4, since it will still be capped at 9?  Or is there a specific reason it's at 5?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (02:01:28/12-29-11)
RAW, Suprathyroid Gland's +1 to reaction doesn't stack with Wired Reflexes's or Reaction Enhancers' reaction boosts. It's odd (and often houseruled), but that's what the rules say. If your GM rules it does stack then that character (and a few others, I think) can save 10 bp.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Digital_Viking on (13:35:14/02-03-12)
Think I screwed up trying to recreate the mercenary rigger in Chummer - I did the cyberarm as you described but Agility doesn't show as as augmented to 9 :(
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:36:04/02-03-12)
I apologize, but I don't really know much about Chummer so I'm not the person to help you.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (00:21:10/02-04-12)
Think I screwed up trying to recreate the mercenary rigger in Chummer - I did the cyberarm as you described but Agility doesn't show as as augmented to 9 :(

It's showing the total for 'average of all bodyparts' on the screen. Just ignore that and manually calculate the dice-pool for single-arm tests.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: DoomerEX on (08:11:34/02-04-12)
Think I screwed up trying to recreate the mercenary rigger in Chummer - I did the cyberarm as you described but Agility doesn't show as as augmented to 9 :(

It's showing the total for 'average of all bodyparts' on the screen. Just ignore that and manually calculate the dice-pool for single-arm tests.
Actually, I believe the options default to counting the skull as a full limb for the purposes of averaging, which can be changed in the options.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (09:14:42/02-04-12)
Actually, I believe the options default to counting the skull as a full limb for the purposes of averaging, which can be changed in the options.

That as well, yes.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (12:26:20/02-04-12)
Think I screwed up trying to recreate the mercenary rigger in Chummer - I did the cyberarm as you described but Agility doesn't show as as augmented to 9 :(

It's showing the total for 'average of all bodyparts' on the screen. Just ignore that and manually calculate the dice-pool for single-arm tests.

I thought all tests using the attribute in question would ALWAYS use the averaged attribute. (Which is a good chunk of why I won't touch a cyber limb with a ten foot pole)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (12:30:22/02-04-12)
Nope. If the test only uses one limb (or some limbs), you get to use that one limb's stats (or some limbs average) rather than the total average. That's the saving grace to cyberlimbs, otherwise they would be just the poor mans solution to when some jackass shoots the flamethrower tank.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (12:32:23/02-04-12)
Nope. If the test only uses one limb (or some limbs), you get to use that one limb's stats (or some limbs average) rather than the total average. That's the saving grace to cyberlimbs, otherwise they would be just the poor mans solution to when some jackass shoots the flamethrower tank.

Well, I'll keep that in mind. Probably still won't use the limbs, but because they Essence hog, and there's too many other implants I'd rather have.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (17:57:36/02-04-12)
Nope. If the test only uses one limb (or some limbs), you get to use that one limb's stats (or some limbs average) rather than the total average. That's the saving grace to cyberlimbs, otherwise they would be just the poor mans solution to when some jackass shoots the flamethrower tank.

Well, I'll keep that in mind. Probably still won't use the limbs, but because they Essence hog, and there's too many other implants I'd rather have.

Just remember, Cyberlimbs have Capacity to fit other gear in.

Getting a Cyberarm of Awesome (aka, have your shooting arm tweaked for 9 Agility + 4 points of Armor) is only 1 Essence and 21,450¥, and you have 4 Capacity left over for other goodies like a Sensor Package .
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (03:50:40/02-06-12)
I don't have my book at hand but I'm sure you can't get Armor 4 on a cyberlimb without also having a cybertorso.
But I could be wrong and anyway Armor 3 is still a good bonus.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (04:44:38/02-06-12)
I don't have my book at hand but I'm sure you can't get Armor 4 on a cyberlimb without also having a cybertorso.
But I could be wrong and anyway Armor 3 is still a good bonus.

I just did a quick check of the Cyberlimb sections of SR4A and Augmentation, and I'm not seeing anything about any restrictions on the Armor enhancement based on needing to have a torso installed. In fact, Armor is simply bundled into a single tiny section with the Agil/Str/Bod enhancements in SR4A (p344), and I didn't turn up any mention of the Armor enhancement at all Augmentation.

There is, however, a rule in Aug about Articulated Weapon Arm requiring a torso to install it, and Bulk Modification limits some of the smaller available bits to Rating 2, but nothing is mentioned about Armor.

Please feel free to double check me, though, as I'm rather frazzled from pulling one hellacious shift today, and I just checked the books, not any of the errata.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (06:11:28/02-06-12)
In SR4 all cyberlimbs could not take cyberlimb enhancements over rating 3 without having a cybertorso as well. In SR4A I believe the restriction only applies to standard cyberlimbs. In SR4 customized limbs didn't exist, so I don't know if the change was intentional or not, but it appears it was to counteract not being able to get limbs better than your normal in the cases of some orcs and trolls.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (06:19:37/02-06-12)
You indeed cannot take Armor 4 without a cybertorso. Armor is a type of enchancement. There's some funny wording but under Standard Cyberlimbs, it says you need a cybertorso to have enhancements over 3, and under Custom Cyberlimbs, it says they take enhancements using the same rules as standard cyberlimbs.

This is a good idea too, because enhancements over 3 is the big selling point of the otherwise pricey and not-very-useful cybertorso.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (08:12:42/02-06-12)
Quote
under Custom Cyberlimbs, it says they take enhancements using the same rules as standard cyberlimbs.

That's not actually what it says though. It says they have all the same stats as standard cyberlimbs other than the customizable attributes.

Quote
This is a good idea too, because enhancements over 3 is the big selling point of the otherwise pricey and not-very-useful cybertorso.
I completely agree that they should require a cybertorso, but the restriction on enhancement levels is not part of the stat block, so I don't think it actually says that they do right now. In addition, the restriction should be under cyberlimb enhancements (like it was in SR4 BBB) if it were applied to both. To top it off, the wording was changed to specifically indicate standard cyberlimbs rather than all:
SR4 BBB
Only characters with a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.
SR4A Core
On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3.

All together it appears that the dev team either didn't think custom limbs should be subject to the restriction, or they made a series of changes that coincidentally made it appear that there was a clear intention.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:20:17/02-06-12)
I think you might be right about this one. The Archetypes are going to stick with the assumption that you do need a cybertorso for enchancements over rating 3 because of the "go with the more conservative interpretation on fuzzy rules" design principle, but I can see GMs ruling differently.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Demonthresis on (23:27:36/02-11-12)
So I was using your Archetypes to help me in character creation (huge help btw thanks a ton!) and my DM said I was incorrectly using Skinlink.  From the SR4A, Skinlink is very ambiguously defined and does not have a set Slots variable.  I was using Skinlink just like you, with a Skinlinked set of Contacts (Rating 2) with two upgrades to the contacts.  However, on page 151 of Arsenal, Skinlink is identified as using 1 slot.   Also, on page 196 of Unwired, certain modifications from pages 148-153 of Arsenal (including Skinlink) may be applied to other electronics.  I would assume that Contacts count as electronics.  Just wanted to bring this to your attention, thanks again for all the awesome work with the Characters.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (23:54:00/02-11-12)
That gets into odd issues. The short version:

There's a skinlink mod, and also a skinlink accessory. The accessory is described on SR4A 328. The mod is described on Arsenal 153, and is not quite the same - the mod is for guns (and by Unwired, also for Commlinks) and takes up slots, but also has the benefit that you can set it to skinlink by default and go wireless if the skinlink breaks. This being shadowrun, both have the same name. It's kind of like how you can put a Gas-Vent 3 accessory in your gun, or you can put a Gas-Vent 3 mod in your gun, and they have the same name but are not the same thing. See Arsenal 148 "Modifications vs. Accessories."

Things get really screwy if you try to put the Skinlink mod on things that aren't commlinks, because it does not take up capacity, it takes up mod slots. Rating 2 contacts have 2 capacity. How many mod slots do they have? Nobody knows (probably 4, since commlinks have 4, but this isn't stated anywhere).

For this reason, I didn't mess around with the skinlink mod (because it's not worth a slot on weapons, and the rules for modding it onto things that aren't weapons or commlinks are unclear).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Demonthresis on (00:20:53/02-12-12)
Unwired not only adds these mods for commlinks but also "may be applied to electronics."  The differentiation in Arsenal seems to address the amount of skill required to install an upgrade (be it mod or accessory) to a firearm, commlink or piece of electronics.  The Skinlink Mod on Arsenal 151 has price and availability as the Skinlink Accessory on SR4A 328.  Obviously rules cannot answer every possible question and we cannot know how the developers feel until it is added to the FAQ/Errata listing.  Personally I think it is circumventing the intention of the rule by not using a slot on a device because of a loophole.  Every other item on the Accessory listing on SR4A 328 with the exception of Skinlink is an external device designed to stand alone or plug into another device.  Even if you view Skinlink as an accessory you can purchase included in new gear, say going to the shop and choosing between glasses or skinlinked glasses, the skinlink software/program/however it works is still loaded on the device.  However, since it is an upgrade purchased in addition (even though it is at time of purchase and not a mod done later on) it does not come standard with the item and should not be included with examples of guns coming with mods already installed but not counting to the limit.

Obviously every DM will have his own interpretation of this rule until an official ruling has been made.  But logically I believe that counting skinlink as its Mod stats indicate is the proper way.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (06:22:27/02-12-12)
It actually doesn't really change anything if you replace all the skinlink accessories with skinlink mods. I don't think there are any skinlinked weapons, and none of the other stuff that got skinlinked was using all its mod slots.

I think you're getting capacity and mod slots confused. For example, rating 2 contacts have a capacity of 2. They also have some number (not listed anywhere) of mod slots. Skinlink mod takes up one of the mod slots. The other stuff you might want (eg, upgrades like Vision Enhancement) takes up capacity. Those are different things and they don't affect one another.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Demonthresis on (19:43:52/02-12-12)
I am having trouble finding the rules giving both accessory capacity and mod capacity, can you please provide a page where this information can be found?  I would like to be able to bring evidence of this claim to my DM to allow the use of these items.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:43:50/02-12-12)
Capacity is defined on SR4A 310. Sensors have their capacity listed on SR4A 332 (for example, Contacts have Capacity=Rating).

Arsenal 129 defines slots and slot maximum. Unwired 196 says that commlinks have 4 modification slots. As far as I know, nothing states how many modification slots an electronic device that isn't a weapon, commlink, or vehicles has. Arsenal 129 just says " At the gamemaster’s discretion, other gear may have slot maximums as well, though he will need to decide these values on his own."

SR is pretty sloppy about terms for the most part, but this is one of the few cases where someone actually thought about words meaning things, and so both Capacity and Slot Maximum are defined. Part of the confusion is likely that the notation for the number of mod slots is
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (22:45:59/02-12-12)
To further add to it, I know that at least one version of chummer had skinlink take capacity as well.

I've got to agree with Umaro. There are two distinct versions of Skinlink (Accessory and Mod). Mod Slots do not equal capacity, and there is no limit to how many mods a generic electronic device can have RAW. Likewise there isn't really any limit to how many accessories a generic electronic device can have.

The important thing here is the wording. There is no such thing as "accessory capacity" or "mod capacity". There is only capacity for sensors, and in the case of visual sensors (contacts, glasses, cameras, etc.), capacity is used to represent the rule that states "The ratings of vision sensors and imaging devices equals the number of vision enhancements that can be applied to the device." Pg. 332, SR4A. You can note that it specifically states vision enhancements here with no mention of accessories or mods.

Modification are limited by "slots" rather than capacity. Likewise accessories are limited by "mounts" instead of capacity.

Keep in mind that the GM has final say though.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (01:34:58/02-15-12)
I'm a bit off the current topic, but hey:

I don't know if it's been requested, but what about a good social/infiltration adept? Able both to b&e if needed, and charm his/her way in, no real requirement to be a combat monster. Kind of like a combo of the Negotiator and Spook archetypes you've got up, but something more like a 'Bond-Spy' character. I'm trying to build one and having a little bit of trouble figuring out how to not shoot myself in the foot with powers vs ware and stats.

EDIT: Also, on the Negotiator, why is IR only 2.5 points?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (07:17:36/02-15-12)
Are you looking at the SR4 costs? SR4A updated Increased Reflexes it to 1.5/2.5/4.

The problem Adepts run into is that they suck pretty badly at being flexible. Adepts are good at being specialists, but bad at being generalists. Once you try to cover more than either just combat, or combat+1 other thing, adepts start running into severe issues (combat + one other thing is more doable because it's easy to pick up combat on the side).

I'll put that on the list of possible new archetypes. For the moment, let me see if I can give you an idea of where to go.

That said, I think the way to go would be Mind over Matter (Logic->Agility). That would allow a high Logic to cover Infiltration and enough basic combat skills to not suck terribly, and also allows for good Hardware. I would probably go with 1 points of magic loss for Tailored Pheremones 3 (.6) and Cerebral Boosters 2 (.4)

After gameplay starts, install another point of 'ware and then buy your magic back up to 4 with karma (for 20 karma). You eventually will want something like Tailored Pheremones 3, Cerebral Boosters 3, Cyber Lower Leg with Nanohive+Neocortical, and PuSHeD, plus some reflex recorders, then fill up with either another cyber partial limb, or with comedy ware.

That leaves you with 4 PP. Grab Mind over Matter, IR 1, Commanding Voice, Kinesics 1, and Improved Noncombat Ability: Something 1 (probably Hardware or a social skill). When you can buy Magic 5, you can get Kinesics 3, and then after that you can choose between getting more Improved Reflexes or getting Improved Noncombat Ability.

If Ways are allowed to you, Speaker's Way makes this better.

At that point, just get your stats and skills. You need high Charisma and Logic, but don't need Agility, so you should either be an Elf or a Human. I think from there it should be doable.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:11:02/02-15-12)
Thought about it a bit more; two variants you might consider as well:

1) Don't buy any initiative enhancer at all. Just use drugs, and live with 1 IP when you can't.

2) Don't buy Improved Reflexes, and instead buy Synaptic Boosters. SB 1 saves you 1 "essence" of space vs. IR, but you then have to throw it out when you want to upgrade. SB 2 means that you have to fit everything but ware into 25000Y which is tight but doable, and is very expensive, but is better than IR1 for .5 less soul. You could also plan on saving up 240000Y in game and then installing SB 3, losing IR from the lost magic, and then buying magic back up and buying a different power.

I would go with Option 1 if you really don't care much about being good at fighting, and spend the saved 1.5 PP on getting Kinesics to 3, and then do whatever with the last .5; probably more Improved Ability. Otherwise, it depends largely on how much you care about power now vs. power later and whether you would ever want to pay for a third/fourth IP.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (12:46:18/02-15-12)
Thanks for the tips! A bunch of them probably won't end up applying to the character, because we aren't using some things like Mind Over Matter, or Nanohives...

Which brings me to a few questions.

Is Mind Over Matter particularly necessary to building a good adept? I kinda doubt it, but it makes buying stats much easier (duh).

Why the cyber leg? Just for the nanohive?

Assuming 250bp for stats, and no Mind Over Matter, what sort of stat pools (final) should a semi-optimized/competent character be looking at? I'm still a bit shakey on how large of pools are needed for different types of things. Some actions seem to require very small innate pools, due to gear, while others require large innate pools.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:07:35/02-15-12)
Mind over Matter isn't the only way to build a good adept. It does make some types of hybrid adepts easier.

The main reason for a cyberlimb on this type of character is the nahohive, yeah. I would probably not bother otherwise.

There really just aren't guidelines for dice pools. At all. It's completely relative to your group and it may vary widely from skill to skill.

250bp for stats is not super helpful to you. You need to also buy Magic. And edge. And Adept. And Skills. If you actually spend 250bp on stats, you won't have enough left. It's more helpful to mundanes.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (15:03:46/02-15-12)
Really? With a 500bp adept character, spending 250 bp on stats will leave you behind? I was including magic in the 250 bp I'm likely to spend on stats also though it's not actually capped by the stat limit. I was under the impression that you pretty much always wanted to hit your cap spending on stats, or around there.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:19:21/02-15-12)
Oh, the 500 bp is an important part of that question :P I meant that 250 bp on stats on a 400bp character would leave you behind. With 500 bp it should be no problem to make an adept who can face, B&E, and be acceptably OK at fighting, even without Mind over Matter.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (15:32:00/02-15-12)
Assuming 250bp for stats, and no Mind Over Matter, what sort of stat pools (final) should a semi-optimized/competent character be looking at? I'm still a bit shakey on how large of pools are needed for different types of things. Some actions seem to require very small innate pools, due to gear, while others require large innate pools.
I'm assuming this is for the face/sneak adept that doesn't completely suck at combat.  How much do care about being a "pure" i.e. non-augmented adept? 

Dice pools vary wildly from group to group.  The archetypes on the higher end of the dice pool spectrum, but I will use them as a reference. 

To face, you want your Con and Negotiation to be at least in the 12 range.  That'll allow to you beat the Mr. Johnson in the book in an opposed Con check more often than not.  Obviously more dice is better, but that's the lowest check I would call a face.  Charisma 5, Influence 4, and some combination of Kinesics and Tailored Pheromones should do it.  If you use emotoys, I wouldn't count them towards this because your opposition will be using it as well.  If you can SURGE and live with distinctive features, glamour is amazingly good deal.

To sneak, you want a good infiltration check.  Here more dice is always better.  You'll also want to make it harder for others to see you.  Ruthenium coatings give a -4 to spot you.  Spirits with concealment can give out -4 to -10 penalties.  Therefore I can't really give you a good value for how good your roll should be. 

If you're going to sneak around, you have to deal with security measures.  Some such as cameras or drones might be defeated by good infiltration checks (depending on the GM).  To defeat others like cyberware scanners, you need hacker support.  However, one you'll likely always encounter is the maglock, be it passkey, bioinformatic, or other.

There's two ways to quietly deal with a maglock.  The first is to use a widget like a maglock passkey or cellular glove maker.  Widgets are pricey, unreliable (typically they can roll at most 6 dice against rating), and often require materials (you need a fingerprint to make a fake fingerprint glove).  For this reason, I generally recommend against relying on them.

The other way is to directly manipulate the maglock via hardware.  You'll likely need a hardware kit but that's cheap and easy to carry.  To bypass a maglock, you'll need to make at least 2 hardware + logic (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) tests, one to open the case and the other to mess around with the insides.  You may want to do a third test to put the case back on. 

Since the most badass maglock you'll normally see is a rating 6 maglock, you'll need to make 12 hits on an extended test.  If you roll 12 dice, you'll get 4 hits on average and thus take you 6 combat turns (18 seconds) to bypass such a maglock (3 turns to remove the case and 3 turns to mess around with the wires) .  If you want to leave no signs, you'll need another 3 turns (9 seconds) to put the case back on.  Overall, that means it'll take you 27 seconds to get though a door.  That's either forever or no time at all.  If you only have 9 dice, it'll take you slightly longer, 12 turns or 36 seconds which isn't that much worse.

Do keep in mind whatever rules your GM uses on extended tests.  If he caps your attempts by your skill, you'll likely have only 4 or so attempts to successfully pass each test.  If you have -1 after every roll instead, you might take longer as your dice pool shrinks (typically I would suggest stopping at 3-5 or so dice for fear of glitching).

The biggest issue is the anti-tamper system.  A rating 4 anti-tamper system, the toughest you'll normally encounter, requires a special hardware roll with a threshold of 4 to bypass. To hit that on average, you'll need 12 dice.  However in my experience most GMs don't use them.  I'll say 10 hardware dice pool and a good edge score can handle the worst maglocks can throw at you.

Now as for combat, you want to be able to hurt people and survive.  Since you're more of a lover than a fighter, you don't need great rolls to attack, but defense is always good.  I would see about getting a 5 body.  That'll give you 5 body and 12/11 armor.  That should see you though defense wise.  As for attacking, I'll be good with a pistol.  Since the highest defense check you'll normally see is 9, you'll want a 12 or so.  If you can assume tacnet, that makes things easy.  Otherwise, pistols 4 (specialization +2) + agility 4 + smartlink 2 will see you though.  This is one of the reasons why cyberlimbs of aweosme are so good is that you can get a decent attack roll easy.

Getting an extra IP is a really good idea.  Most fights typically last 2-3 passes so you'll want to help in that second pass.  You can live with not going in the third pass especially if you know you'll often have more combatable backup.  For an adept, the two core ways for IP is the Adept power Improved Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters.  You can also take Cram for +1 reaction and +1 IP instead.  A lot of people don't like drugs so I can understand passing on that.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:42:24/02-15-12)
As a social adept who wants to dial it in on combat, I would actually suggest just leaning on Commanding Voice and have something like Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannons) 1 (3) for dealing with things that can't be commanding voiced via gauss rifle. If you jack your Leadership high enough, you can spend actions to make the entire opposition sit there for a pass, which is huge and is even more huge if you aren't very good at fighting otherwise. Enough things are immune that you don't want to totally rely on this, but it can easily be the mainstay of your combat strategy and that plus 2 IPs is enough to make sure you can beat up go-gangers and whatnot.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (16:27:01/02-15-12)
I actually have a question about some of the equips you've got, and have suggested.

Quote
Arsenal, pg. 50:
Ruthenium Polymer Coating: Th is modification can only be added to armor or clothing that covers the wearer’s whole body, like full body armors or suits.

You've got it added to overcoats and stuff! Is the idea there that you've got enough parts coated with it to overall count as covering your entire body?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:55:18/02-15-12)
You can also call it a poncho if you prefer :P 0/0 "clothing" can definitely include things that cover your whole body.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (17:00:31/02-15-12)
Oh god. The poncho of invisibility. And the coating would probably make it the "Somewhat Rigid Poncho of Invisibility".
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Makki on (02:30:14/02-21-12)
the Gunslinger uses Tracer rounds in the Fubuki. But by my text, they only work with full-auto weapons.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: redwolf on (05:09:29/02-21-12)
the Gunslinger uses Tracer rounds in the Fubuki. But by my text, they only work with full-auto weapons.
and the fubuki is? if a weapon fire all is rounds in one go then imo it is full auto + iirc tracer work in bf mod and not only full auto
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (05:55:24/02-21-12)
The fubuki is a BF weapon, not FA. It doesn't say that the weapon has to fire in FA to gain benefits from the tracers (the rules support burst, long burst and full burst), it does stat that "This type of ammunition can only be used in full-auto weapons and is loaded as every third round in a clip."

That makes it pretty clear that it can't be used in anything without FA listed in its modes. I don't look at it as a logical they can't do it, so much as more of a no companies make that kind of ammunition. Thinking about it logically, with smartlink being so cheap and easy to get (external versions and the vision enh. are both lower avail. than tracer rounds), who would their market be? A set of Smartlink goggles cost roughly a grand, work for every kind of shot, and are better for everything but full bursts. The only primary market for tracer rounds are actual FA users (meaning primarily MGs) and extremely poor individuals (most of which can't afford the licensing for their guns or the ammo anyway). The latter case tends to get used in crimes and is not something most companies want attributed to them. There isn't a single FA pistol other than Machine Pistols.

Now in RL, all these classes (including SMGs) would often share ammo types, opening up many more doors, but SR has ammo split by weapon type rather than caliber. The weapon classes don't share ammo with each other at all, so there is no crossover. With no FA light pistols on the market, their is no reason for Light Pistol tracers to exist.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Lethe on (06:29:18/02-21-12)
the Gunslinger uses Tracer rounds in the Fubuki. But by my text, they only work with full-auto weapons.
and the fubuki is? if a weapon fire all is rounds in one go then imo it is full auto + iirc tracer work in bf mod and not only full auto
But: There is only one explanation a fubuki has SA recoil instead of BF recoil, when shooting the 4 rounds. Those 4 rounds are all shot at once. So, why its reasonable to use BF rules for the damage calculation, there will be no tracing effect to adjust for. Those 4 shots are used like a single bullet and a single bullet doesn't have a tracing bonus!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (06:43:37/02-21-12)
Yup, that's correct. I overlooked the restriction to full-auto weapons only and was thinking it would work with bursts on a BF weapon. I'll fix that.

Someone also pointed out that the people with plastic guns should probably also own a few plastic bullets, so that's getting fixed too.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (12:13:27/03-08-12)
Dude, you get a 1+ for this awesome thread.  Also, I chuckled at the Zoolander joke, so thank you for that as well. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (17:07:20/03-08-12)
Glad you liked them. There's a few more jokes/references here and there as well :P
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (18:38:49/03-08-12)
So, I have to ask... why is this not pinned/stickied?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: crisses on (00:10:19/03-09-12)
1 request:

Please add the individual character/archetype links in a separate column in the summary worksheet.  It means there's one link for your great work, and it has all the links for the details embedded inside...

Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (20:32:02/04-05-12)
I'm not usually one for thread nercromancy, but this thread is important, so I am giving it a little bump. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: tezzet on (20:11:05/04-10-12)
I may be misinterpreting the rules on sustaining foci. My book says that "A spell sustained by a sustaining focus cannot have a Force greater than that of the focus." Wouldn't this mean that you need, for example, a force 7 focus to sustain an Increase [Attribute] that increases its attribute to 7? These characters seem to be built under the interpretation that a focus sustains its force in hits.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Henzington on (20:20:51/04-10-12)
that was my understanding of the rules as well which is why i generally use a sustaining focus for the magic wired reflexes
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: zarzak on (20:53:53/04-10-12)
I may be misinterpreting the rules on sustaining foci. My book says that "A spell sustained by a sustaining focus cannot have a Force greater than that of the focus." Wouldn't this mean that you need, for example, a force 7 focus to sustain an Increase [Attribute] that increases its attribute to 7? These characters seem to be built under the interpretation that a focus sustains its force in hits.

That was also my interpretation.

Sustaining Focus will only sustain spells whose force is less than or equal to the focus.  The increase attribute spell says "the force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attributed being affected".
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:08:36/04-10-12)
You check whether the target is valid before applying the Increase Attribute spell. What it means is that you need to include any other augmentations first, eg, Strength 1 + Muscle Augmentation 2 is 1(3), so you need at least force 3. It's a bit confusing the way it's phrased: the (augmented) sometimes throws people off. Note the steps: first, the Force must equal or exceed the (augmented) value, and then you add hits.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: zarzak on (21:31:43/04-10-12)
You check whether the target is valid before applying the Increase Attribute spell. What it means is that you need to include any other augmentations first, eg, Strength 1 + Muscle Augmentation 2 is 1(3), so you need at least force 3. It's a bit confusing the way it's phrased: the (augmented) sometimes throws people off. Note the steps: first, the Force must equal or exceed the (augmented) value, and then you add hits.

I didn't look through the sample characters to see what his issue was, but I assume that he had an issue with some attribute being increased much higher.  Say you have agility 5 and want to use the increase attribute ... then its a force 5 spell, at least (and of course it gets more expensive if you have any other sort of augmentation). 

That requires a pretty expensive sustaining focus to make work.  Of course, if its just increasing something as low as a 1(3) stat then its not an issue.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: tezzet on (21:43:57/04-10-12)
Turns out that I actually just misinterpreted the sheet. The Transhuman Mystic uses force 3 sustaining foci to increase his Intuition & Reaction, which are both naturally at 3. So the spell is only force 3.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (17:29:00/04-16-12)
I thought you couldn't sustain several spells on the same focus?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (17:50:45/04-16-12)
You can't. That character has more than one sustaining focus.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (05:25:01/04-17-12)
You can't. That character has more than one sustaining focus.

My bad, my cybereyes need realignement...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Yogi on (23:56:02/04-17-12)
Question about the combat hackers common dice pools.

Hardware: 9
Computer: 4+Program Rating*
Electronic Warfare: 4+Program Rating*
Hacking: 9+Program Rating (11+Program Rating with Hacking on the Fly, +1 with Exploit)*

I'm trying to figure these out.

THe hardware skill is 4 + 2(logic) + 2 Encephalon....maybe.
Compute rand EW skills are 1 -  Not sure how they are 4
Hacking skill is 6 - Where did the other 3 come from. 

It looks the Encephalon add to all active Cracking and Electronics skills but the +2 bonus doesn't seem to fit/

It seems like I'm missing something. 

Reason I'm asking is I'm making a combat hacker and I'm getting a crash course in the hacking/matrix rules
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Henzington on (00:03:20/04-18-12)
rating 2 adds one to all logic based skills and 1 to cracking and electronics skill groups
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: sway on (00:16:37/04-18-12)
Hardware is 4 (rating) + 2 (logic) + 2 (encephalon) +1 (PushEd) = 9
Computer and Electronic Warfare are 1 + 2 (encephalon) + 1 (PushEd) = 4
Hacking is 6 + 2 (encephalon) +1 (PushEd) = 9 [+2 for Hacking on the Fly (codeslinger), +1 Exploit (commlink optimized for Exploit)]. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Yogi on (01:36:25/04-18-12)
The combat hackers Data search pool is 10

Data search 1 + 2 (encephalon) +1 (PushEd) +2 (logic) = 6

Where does the other 4 come from? 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: sway on (02:02:11/04-18-12)
The combat hackers Data search pool is 10

Data search 1 + 2 (encephalon) +1 (PushEd) +2 (logic) = 6

Where does the other 4 come from?

You don't add Logic to Data Search generally speaking, like other Matrix skills you generally add it to a program's rating. Note that Computer, Electronic Warfare, and Hacking all have + program. Data Search usually just uses one program, Browse, which the combat hacker has at rating 6. Thus DS 1 + 2 enceph + 1 push + 6 browse. Mind you, Data Search can occasionally use other programs, but generally it is going to be Browse.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (18:01:14/04-18-12)
Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see? By "types" I mean stuff like metatype, general function, etc, rather than highly-specific things, since I want to keep them generic.

If you're lacking inspiration, I'd like to see what you'll do with a beastmaster (someones who tames paracritters), and my big challenge would be to make a not-sucking true generalist (with a little bit of magic, a little bit of hacking, a little bit of face and a little bit of B&E/stealth)... And shifters an infected too, I think they need more Archetype love from you...
And robotic ninja zombie pirates, because you never have enough of them
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (18:16:46/04-18-12)
Right now I have a bit of a free time shortage, but I have been thinking about what to add. Right now the status of Possession in missions is in limbo, so I'm waiting for resolution on that front. One thing I'm considering is adding some example characters with specific things that are banned in missions but reasonably commonly used or that are more exotic, including Shifters and Infected, also maybe AI/Free Spirits.

Beastmaster doesn't really work in a Missions context due to the general no crafting policy. I looked into not training animals and just buying them, but unfortunately, the cost for useful trained animals is whoa crazy. I do something "one adept of each Way" and that would be a good place to put an animal trainer.

I think a MysAd who's a not-terrible true generalist is actually probably doable and I might include one. I think you can actually make a quite effective Charisma possession MysAd who can cover all of those bases.

Robotic ninja zombie pirates are unfortunately too broken. Wouldn't want people thinking I was a powergamer, or something.

Thanks for your feedback!

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (21:40:52/04-18-12)
I'd love to see you make a A.I. or Free Spirit that doesn't suck. Very much so. :D

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (01:27:54/04-19-12)
Yes more archtype please  ;D

And it would be cool with some characters that are just good no matter if they are mission legal or not.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (02:14:33/04-19-12)
A real adept that hasn't fubared their magic with implants would be good. I was actually rather peeved to see that the one in the second link was intentionally built with the absolute worst combos possible.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (03:20:56/04-19-12)
I was actually rather peeved to see that the one in the second link was intentionally built with the absolute worst combos possible.

Dude, that's because those builds are April Fools jokes and UmaroVI was mocking Unaugmented Adepts. Chill out, learn to take a joke, and get over the fact that Augmented Adepts just plain overshadow Unaugmented Adepts when it comes to building a character that can actually get the job done.

You have a hard-on for "pure" magic users. That's blindingly obvious to anyone who has seen you open your mouth when the subject comes up. The reality of the situation, though, is that without major alterations to the rules the only reason to play a chrome-free Adept is because it spanks your RP monkey.

Or do you honestly believe there's any way to spend 4 PP that does better than getting you +5 Agility, +5 Strength, +1 Body, +4* Reaction, +3 IPs, and -1 DV on any attack dealing 2 DV or more? That's the benchmark, because that's what you can get for burning 4 Essence on Standard Grade Bioware without any Essence Cost tricks.

*Or +3, depending on how the GM rules Suprathyroid interacts with IP Boosters.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Digital_Viking on (08:55:22/04-19-12)
because it spanks your RP monkey.

I salute your turn of a phrase,sir or madam!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (09:54:40/04-19-12)
because it spanks your RP monkey.

I salute your turn of a phrase,sir or madam!

*takes a bow*

Thank you. And it's sir, last time I checked. ;)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Digital_Viking on (10:59:09/04-19-12)
[*takes a bow*

Thank you. And it's sir, last time I checked. ;)

It's the internet, better safe than sorry
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (12:39:56/04-19-12)
I think a MysAd who's a not-terrible true generalist is actually probably doable and I might include one. I think you can actually make a quite effective Charisma possession MysAd who can cover all of those bases.

Tried that here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6961.msg123664#msg123664)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: zarzak on (20:08:36/04-24-12)
I'd second that I'd like to see you do a possession character, just with a disclaimer before it.

Also I'd like to see your take on a smuggler (since it *is* one of the archetypes in the book).  I know some of your characters can function as one, but none are truly designed for it.  :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (15:05:48/04-27-12)
So, I have to ask... why is this not pinned/stickied?
Because there is no god?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: FastJack on (12:02:13/05-03-12)
So, I have to ask... why is this not pinned/stickied?
Because there is no god?
Or because no one asked?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Henzington on (18:28:09/05-03-12)
ask and thy shall recieve
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (18:33:45/05-03-12)
So, I have to ask... why is this not pinned/stickied?
Because there is no god?
Or because no one asked?
See?  Proof that there is a god.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: St. Isidor on (12:51:27/05-14-12)
As best as this chummer can tell, no one has compiled these archetypes in the HeroLabs character builder, and then uploaded the files.  Is that correct?  Is there any demand any the community for such a thing?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:03:13/05-14-12)
That is correct. I've heard from a few people who were interested. Depending on how things go I may eventually get around to converting them myself, but that wouldn't be for a while.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: St. Isidor on (17:24:33/05-14-12)
If I went ahead and started doing a few, where would be the best place for me to upload the files?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: W.I.Z. on (19:40:06/05-14-12)
Any chance of Chummer files?  I am liking the Chummer char gen and it is free...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cranstonvm on (23:45:26/05-14-12)
Any chance of Chummer files?  I am liking the Chummer char gen and it is free...

seconded
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Digital_Viking on (07:52:37/05-15-12)
Any chance of Chummer files?  I am liking the Chummer char gen and it is free...
Yes but it's in a legal gray area and I don't think Nebular or the community really wants to push the issue.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JoeNapalm on (11:33:55/05-15-12)

Is Chummer Windows-only?

HeroLabs sadly is.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (11:35:17/05-15-12)
Any chance of Chummer files?  I am liking the Chummer char gen and it is free...
Yes but it's in a legal gray area and I don't think Nebular or the community really wants to push the issue.

More people would buy the official one if it weren't only 5 less in cost than buying a copy of SW:TOR and a two month game time card for it and everything that's out for it. That price is ludicrous for an RPG character generator.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Digital_Viking on (12:12:10/05-15-12)
Any chance of Chummer files?  I am liking the Chummer char gen and it is free...
Yes but it's in a legal gray area and I don't think Nebular or the community really wants to push the issue.

More people would buy the official one if it weren't only 5 less in cost than buying a copy of SW:TOR and a two month game time card for it and everything that's out for it. That price is ludicrous for an RPG character generator.

I think the pricing model has been discussed ad nauseum on this and other forums - it still doesn't change the legal status of Chummer.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: St. Isidor on (12:55:19/05-15-12)
If I went ahead and started doing a few, where would be the best place for me to upload the files?

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Thrass on (22:12:51/05-15-12)
If I went ahead and started doing a few, where would be the best place for me to upload the files?
some OCH or maybe contact the chummer author and ask if he provides the files...

since the archetypes are intellectual property of umaro you (maybe) need to ask him for permission for distributing his work... or a derivate

but if this is done you can safely put them up at any share hoster...

but I'm from europe so I don't know about US law specifics... ;)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:17:04/05-16-12)
I don't currently have a good location to host the chummer files, if they are made. You have my permission to make and upload chummer files anywhere you want, and I'll link to them, provided that you give me credit for making the original characters.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dirtywork on (08:22:10/05-21-12)
I'm returning to Shadowrun after a 16 year hiatus. Needless to say there have been a few changes.

So I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time and the effort to create these replacement archetypes!

I've got a new group put together who are very eager to Run. Some are new to RPGs and all of them are new to SR.

I'm planning a test run this weekend. We're going to run Food Fight 4.0 just for familiarization and practice. Some of our players are more than a little intimidated by the prospect of sitting down and spending hours on character creation. It's my hope that by using these new archetypes they will be encouraged to either build on these characters or make their own from scratch.

As a long time GM (7 years of GMing SR1) coming out of an even longer retirement these archetypes are invaluable to me. Not only can I use these as contacts, bad guys, and so on, but I can also dissect them to help me get a better grasp on the new mechanics of SR4.

So again....from the bottom of my nerdy little heart...thank you very much for these!!!!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (08:33:04/05-21-12)
You're welcome, and I hope they work out well for your group.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SeriousOne338 on (15:24:51/05-21-12)
I'm not trying to be mean, I've been reading over the characters and I was looking at the Mercenary Rigger, I was wondering the Thundercloud Morgan is it suppose to be where he lives? I only ask because it's a two seater.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:46:57/05-21-12)
No, he has an unspecified Low lifestyle. The squatter amenities in the Morgan is so you can jam four people into it. It's basically just a cheap all-purpose ride, not a base.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SeriousOne338 on (15:49:15/05-21-12)
Gotcha. Just had to wonder.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: voydangel on (02:07:16/05-22-12)
I would absolutely LOVE to get my hands on these in chummer format.
Any new news on if anyone has done the "conversions" and if said files are available?

As far as a place to host the files, if that is our only stumbling block, we can just use the OMAE character sharing system that is built into Chummer.
We would just need to make sure that each of these characters has some sort of note in its description that identifies it as a "Archtype character" when they are uploaded.
Since only the uploader can edit the files once they're there, I would recommend that the OP (UmaroVI) be the one to actualy do the uploads of the files via OMAE|Chummer.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SeriousOne338 on (14:11:37/05-22-12)
Hey UmaroVI have you ever thought of putting together an investigator/occult investigator?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: squee_nabob on (14:24:43/05-22-12)
Isn't that just the paranormal detective with some synonyms?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:42:55/05-22-12)
Yeah, the Paranormal Detective is a rewrite of the Occult Investigator to be less bad and more Harry Dresden.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (11:15:34/05-24-12)
If I went ahead and started doing a few, where would be the best place for me to upload the files?

There's this little tool called omae in chummer, where you can download character... Never tried it, but it seems that you can upload yours to a shared database
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Phoenix8008 on (06:13:16/05-30-12)
In the InfoSavant character, under his gear is listed a Camouflage Vest. I see a Camouflage Suit listed in SR4A, but don't see a vest anywhere by itself. It's not showing up in the Chummer program either, even with all the sourcebooks checked off to use. Anybody know where this piece of equipment is?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Zephraim on (08:04:25/05-30-12)
It's from Arsenal, Chummer lists it under Clothing as "Victory: Globetrotter Camouflage Vest".
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Charasanya on (03:08:55/05-31-12)
First of all: Thank you for you awesome work! It really helped me a lot!

I was wondering, if there was something like a B&E expert, somebody that is able to do the following things:

- move undetected (i.e. high infiltration, appropriate gear)
- take care of locks and security cams/drones (via hacking)
- good perception/information gathering
- talk and/or gun his way out of a nasty situation
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Hawke on (09:05:45/05-31-12)
Have you seen the The Spook?

Cybered, face, b&e samurai.

Might be what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Charasanya on (09:45:30/05-31-12)
Yes, I have seen the Spook and he is rather close to what I am looking for, though from what I have seen, he isn't really able to cope with any intrusion detectors, i.e. through hacking, or magic. He practically always has to rely on others for his break-ins, unless there isn't any security worth speaking of. His combat abilities are really good, and he's a great face, but that is kinda over the top for what I had in mind.

I get it, that more specialized hackers or mages might be better suited to provide the needed backup for such a character, but not being able to do any of the stuff yourself, you are basically obligated to rely on others who might easily betray you...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Netzgeist on (09:47:02/05-31-12)
It may be that I'm just not paying enough attention, but why does the Spook has a 13-dice pool when shooting his Morrissey Élan/Ruger Thunderbolt and just a 11-dice pool when shooting his taser, if he has no specialization?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:51:15/05-31-12)
Weapon customizations, perhaps.

And Charasanya, this is why you have a team.  It is nigh-impossible to create a starting character that can do everything.  If you do, then they will do none of it well.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (01:02:34/06-01-12)
It may be that I'm just not paying enough attention, but why does the Spook has a 13-dice pool when shooting his Morrissey Élan/Ruger Thunderbolt and just a 11-dice pool when shooting his taser, if he has no specialization?

The Taser doesn't have a Smartgun System on it - this is because Smartlinks are Restricted, and the major reason to carry a taser is that it's legal, rather than restricted, so you can take it more places.

Charasanya: keep in mind that (mag)locks are actually Hardware, not hacking. However, there are certainly some security problems that you have to have Hacking to bypass.

Of the Archetypes, the closest characters are the Combat Hacker and the Generalist. The Combat Hacker has good infiltration (11), he can take care of locks (hardware 9, which is alright, although he will probably need to Edge anti-tamper systems much of the time), he's a very good hacker, his perception is at least not terrible (5, 8 on visual/hearing), he can Data Search up information, and while he has terrible social skills he's also a second-tier street samurai. The generalist is in many ways similar, but has worse infiltration and mildly worse hacking and combat, better hardware, and is also a good face.

Based on what you wanted, I would suggest taking the Generalist, switching Pistols and Infiltration (he'll be slightly less good at fighting, but still perfectly good, and that will get a more passable infiltration of 8), and see if you can scrape up the cash for an Attention Coprocessor 3, which will get him up to Perception 8 (visual/hearing 11) which is also OK. The only place I really see to cut the money from is going to be to drop a few less vital programs and buy them later. If your main goal is to support B&E, I would probably cut Disarm, Track, ECCM, and Defuse.

Now, he won't be amazing at any one thing, but he can at least cover everything passably and he does have 6 edge to fill in the gaps.



Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Netzgeist on (17:54:12/06-01-12)
It may be that I'm just not paying enough attention, but why does the Spook has a 13-dice pool when shooting his Morrissey Élan/Ruger Thunderbolt and just a 11-dice pool when shooting his taser, if he has no specialization?

The Taser doesn't have a Smartgun System on it - this is because Smartlinks are Restricted, and the major reason to carry a taser is that it's legal, rather than restricted, so you can take it more places.

I just can't believe I missed that...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Henzington on (02:38:39/06-02-12)
I was under the impression that an internal smartlink was obvious from a visual standpoint
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (07:38:56/06-05-12)
Might not be obvious to the casual observer, but anyone paying close attention is going to notice the small camera on the weapon that is 90% of the time going to point toward it being smartlinked.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:36:32/06-05-12)
My opinion is that Tasers are niche weapons, and their niche is being totally legal, so you really don't want any mods that compromise that niche. Most places that actually make you check all your guns probably are going to take a close look at your taser.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Crash_00 on (05:01:01/06-06-12)
Keep in mind, just because it's legal to carry around doesn't mean private establishments will let you carry it in on you. Most states that allow carry/conceal still require permission on private property/private clubs.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (16:43:54/06-06-12)
Right, but then you want a hide able gun or Unarmed, not a restricted taser.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Exelotiron on (07:15:56/06-08-12)
Being a total rookie, both when it comes to shadowrun, and therefore also posting at this forum, i hope i dont step on anyones toes when stating this.

I think this work is invalid. The characters are super nice, no doubt about it, but as a replacement for the sample characters, they should be made using the same tools, that is, only the one book. All the other books ofcourse add alot of nice stuff, but it should not be used if the challenge is to make replacement for the sample chars in the basic rulebook.

I really really wish i could just give it the thumbs up, since it is a really cool piece of work.
btw mainly im just bitchin' because my gm will only let me use the basic rulebook for my first char, which measn i now know of all kinds of awesome, that i can not use... :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:26:41/06-08-12)
That's actually not a bad idea, and core-only archetypes are on the list of things I would like to do. The original intent was to conform to the Missions ruleset, which is why they are not core-only.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (19:58:02/06-08-12)
I think this work is invalid. The characters are super nice, no doubt about it, but as a replacement for the sample characters, they should be made using the same tools, that is, only the one book....

I really really wish i could just give it the thumbs up, since it is a really cool piece of work.

... I think you misunderstand the entire point of the characters made above, as well as the use of half the concepts in your own response.  If you like the characters, reward their creator with rep, no matter what your GM or his requirements and restrictions are.  The work is perfectly valid no matter what you think should have been done; what matters is the intent of their creator.  Umaro VI just stated his intent was not to restrict himself to making replacements for the book archetypes by only using the main book, but to make Missions-capable and -ruleset archetypes.  To boot, even then it isn't a question of whether or not 'the work' is valid, but whether a particular character is allowable in a Missions game.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Glyph on (22:53:57/06-08-12)
UmaroVI was pretty specific on what his design goals were - optimized missions-legal characters.  I think he did a great job with them.

If you want archetypes made only with the core book, then the Sample Character Archive (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20029&st=0) on Dumpshock is what you are looking for.  The goal was different - to make decent but not fully optimized starting characters, using primarily the main book.  I know that mine were made with the core SR4 book only (the former Mr. Johnson, the enforcer, the elven hitman, the rocker, the break-in specialist, and the slick weasel).  But use the revised former Mr. Johnson from the last page - when I first did him, kinesics wasn't capped.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RippeR on (11:33:40/06-09-12)
It seems all the magic characters have Power Foci rating 4. That item has availability 20, which is clearly higher than 12 allowed usually. Is that some mission related thing (I don't play missions, just home games)?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:36:41/06-09-12)
It's Restricted Gear, a quality from Runner's Compendium.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (14:17:06/06-09-12)
It seems all the magic characters have Power Foci rating 4. That item has availability 20, which is clearly higher than 12 allowed usually. Is that some mission related thing (I don't play missions, just home games)?

They have Restricted Gear to get that which you can take three times for 5 BP each to get an item of availability up to 20 each time (still have to pay for it).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bmoham on (19:58:33/06-10-12)
I'm sure the answer to this question is obvious, but I've poked around a bit and can't figure it out.
Why don't the matrix characters have higher electronic warfare or cybercombat?

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:49:22/06-10-12)
EW is a skill that you need primarily to find nodes. You find them by making tests that are typically not that time-sensitive and are Extended, and also simply have an upper limit on how good you need to be. It's not a good idea to have 0 EW, but you don't really need to be great at it. It would be nice to have more than 1, but it's not as important as other things that the points can go to.

Cybercombat is generally just a waste of time. Participating in cybercombat is playing a pointless game that you can't win; the way to win is going to involve using absolute effects like removing people from the node, unloading IC, jamming, or the like. Being good at hacking is primarily about not getting caught.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bmoham on (13:53:46/06-13-12)
I see. Thanks.
I'm new to SR and working through the archtypes has been helpful in getting a feel for character optimization.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: khirareq on (10:38:43/06-18-12)
I tried putting Bad Enough Trog into Chummer and immediately failed.  I couldn't find the Biocompatibility quality and gave up.  I had earlier tried to create him in WizDoc's excel character creater, but was stymied by my inability to find an Overcoat, Ruthenium Coating or a place to put the second comlink.  Is there a character generator that will take these things?  I'd like some pretty character sheets to hand out to my players on Sunday.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Yogi on (11:28:28/06-18-12)
I tried putting Bad Enough Trog into Chummer and immediately failed.  I couldn't find the Biocompatibility quality and gave up.  I had earlier tried to create him in WizDoc's excel character creater, but was stymied by my inability to find an Overcoat, Ruthenium Coating or a place to put the second comlink.  Is there a character generator that will take these things?  I'd like some pretty character sheets to hand out to my players on Sunday.

Make sure that you have all the books checked so that the books are available to be used.  By default chummer only uses the Core book. 

Go under  Tools and then options.  there you can select what books you want the program to use.  After making the change you will need to close Chummer and relaunch it so the changes take effect.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: khirareq on (17:01:20/06-18-12)
Done and done!  That worked like a charm.  Bad Enough Trog is done.  The sheet still lists his Aptitude as Unarmed Combat, of course it should be the Spur.  I got Burnout Combat Mage done as well, though there were some complications.  The price listed for the cyberlegs doesn't add, and you can't get the full customized +3/+3 or +4/+3 for the legs.  All you can afford is +2/+2 and +3/+2.  So, I changed that.  Then I took the right leg down to +2/+2, nixed the microsensor rangefinder and an Overdrive to add in the Machine Pistol with 100 regular ammo in the left leg.  It makes no sense to me that he knows how to use a Cybergun in his leg, but he doesn't have one.  I'm sure it would confuse a new player as well.

I'll keep working on these and let you know what I am finding as I do them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (18:44:22/06-18-12)
Done and done!  That worked like a charm.  Bad Enough Trog is done.  The sheet still lists his Aptitude as Unarmed Combat, of course it should be the Spur.  I got Burnout Combat Mage done as well, though there were some complications.  The price listed for the cyberlegs doesn't add, and you can't get the full customized +3/+3 or +4/+3 for the legs.  All you can afford is +2/+2 and +3/+2.  So, I changed that.  Then I took the right leg down to +2/+2, nixed the microsensor rangefinder and an Overdrive to add in the Machine Pistol with 100 regular ammo in the left leg.  It makes no sense to me that he knows how to use a Cybergun in his leg, but he doesn't have one.  I'm sure it would confuse a new player as well.

I'll keep working on these and let you know what I am finding as I do them.

You're correct about the Aptitude.

You're correct about the leg customizations. Oops! It would be best to have 3/1 and 4/1 rather than 2/2 and 3/2, because of body averaging, which is what I'm changing it to.

With respect to the cybergun: cyber machine pistol is 16R, thus not available at chargen. That's why there's space for a gun, but no actual gun; it's listed in the suggested purchases.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:22:42/06-20-12)
First post is slightly updated; nothing major.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: raggedhalo on (06:37:16/07-06-12)
Hi there,

These are really great, thank you!  I am going to use some of them as an opposing runner team in my next adventure.

I had a question, which I realise might have been addressed elsewhere in the thread.

Pg. 333 of SR4A says "Each (audio) enhancement costs 1 Capacity (per rating)."  The Bad Enough Trog has Rating 2 Ear Buds but 4 points of audio enhancements (Audio Enhancement 3, Spatial Recogniser) and is thus over capacity.  I'm sure the same is true for the other Archetypes, although I've not checked yet.

If I'm missing an errata or Missions-specific rule somewhere, please let me know, otherwise please accept my contribution to the cause of legal-by-RAW characters!

Edit To Add: The Info Savant's bus and motorbike don't have the Rigger Adaptation mod, and it's not mentioned in the other vehicles (although they're all drones and thus get it automatically).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Charasanya on (07:10:52/07-06-12)
Even a rating 3 Audio enhancer counts as a single enhancement.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: raggedhalo on (07:13:58/07-06-12)
Even a rating 3 Audio enhancer counts as a single enhancement.

Not by my reading:

Quote
Audio enhancements are commonly available as earbuds or headphones.
Each will play audio input from AR or other sources. Each
enhancement costs 1 Capacity (per rating).

Emphasis mine.  One Capacity per rating, so Audio Enhancement Rating 3 takes up 3 Capacity.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:01:00/07-06-12)
Raggedhalo,

Unfortunately, this is one of those issues.

What happened is that, in SR4, it was definitely capacity cost equal to rating. Then in SR4A, there's a clusterfuck where different editions of the book and the pdf and everything sometimes do and don't have that line. The Changes Reference errata (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/SR4A_changes.pdf) clarifies that it is supposed to be everything costs 1 capacity, except Ultrasound which costs 2. I did not discover that last stealth errata until now, so I'm fixing that one.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: raggedhalo on (11:13:12/07-06-12)
Awesome, thanks.  I only noticed it myself when I was inputting one of the PCs at my table into Hero Lab and it kept throwing up errors!

I added this as an edit above, so I don't know if you noticed it: Rigger Adaptation for the bus and motorbike on the Info Savant appear to be missing.  As they cost 1BP between them, I figure it might be important.

Edit to add: And, of course, the Changes reference errata is likely superceded by more recent releases of SR4A, e.g. Threading now being a Free Action.  The PDF I downloaded from BattleCorps with that change in it has the line about audio enhancements.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:26:05/07-06-12)
He's actually not supposed to have those: you only need Rigger Adaptation to jump in, not to remote control. The Info Savant uses either Remote Control or Machine Sprites.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: raggedhalo on (19:51:50/07-06-12)
Really? I had thought it was necessary for remote control too. (Another) +1 to you for correcting me!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tarnish on (19:59:22/07-07-12)
Does the Spirit medium lack binding or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:44:37/07-07-12)
Yes. This is mostly because Binding is the sort of thing that new players tend to just not use (and can't usually make use of until they finish an adventure), and partly because picking up enough Binding to get things done is easily handled with karma. There's no practical issue with binding on that character (or any of the mages, really).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Scruff1W on (12:15:09/07-12-12)
Excellent post! I already made two runners based off your templates, so thank you very much.  8)

Binding spirits seems only worth it if you plan on Invoking (metamagic) them or making them an Ally Spirit. Please correct me if you disagree.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (13:35:30/07-12-12)
Excellent post! I already made two runners based off your templates, so thank you very much.  8)

Binding spirits seems only worth it if you plan on Invoking (metamagic) them or making them an Ally Spirit. Please correct me if you disagree.
Binding's pretty strong.  1 spirit buddy is really good, a small army of spirit buddies is better.  Binding also gives you access to the fairly handy Aid Sorcery service*.    If you do want to go down the binding route, you'll want to be a charisma mage so you can have lots of bound spirits. 

Binding's nuyen cost ultimately doesn't matter much if you're a pure mage.  You'll rapidly be looking into useful money sinks. Binding's main drawback is the drain.  A force 6 spirit rolls 12 dice so you're likely taking 8 boxes of damage (likely physical).  But it could spike to 12.  However since binding is 100% downtime, all that matters is that you don't get KOed or killed while binding.  If you're still standing, you can get medkitted and/or nap for a few days before your health matters. 

You do want a extremely good drain roll (12+ dice) before you go down the binding route.  Since having a high drain roll is extremely useful for a mage in general,  this isn't as much of a cost. 

You can easily live as a mage without binding.  However, it's respectable choice to be a binder.  It's more useful than banishing at least.

 *- It does need to be at a force equal to the spell's force.  So it's not especially handy for combat spells since you'll need to have a bound force 8 spirit for your force 8 stunbolt.  Due to hits being capped by force as well, mystic adepts do the best here since they'll have smaller dice pools than full mages.  But a +5 to health or detection can be handy to make sure you cap out on hits.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (14:51:42/07-12-12)
Binding spirits seems only worth it if you plan on Invoking (metamagic) them or making them an Ally Spirit. Please correct me if you disagree.

Being able to whistle up seven Force 6 spirits, whose services don't expire, is pretty useful... of course, that's the most practical for a Charisma Tradition mage.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Carz on (14:21:48/07-13-12)
Quote from: UmaroVI
(From InfoSavant & TechnoShaman sample characters)
"Also, you might consider threading up a Tacnet. You yourself cannot use it, but your drones and teammates can. "

I'm wondering why a Technomancer can't benefit from the Tacnet/Tacsoft?

From base, maybe I can see it since they won't be using trodes and such, but I'm thinking they just buy the SimRig Complex form (Unwired, pg 136), and then use that to add in their natural senses to the Tacnet that they themselves are running. As per Unwired pg 125 under Natural Senses, it says, "Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig each count as a sensor channel." If they have the Smartlink Complex form (Smartlink is listed under the Cybernetic Senses section as a valid channel) and a smartgun (to provide the actual sensor input), they can get the minimum 4 senses to be part of a Level 2 Tacnet.

Am I missing some other rules part that makes this setup not work?


Thanks!
Carz
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (14:25:10/07-13-12)
Quote from: UmaroVI
(From InfoSavant & TechnoShaman sample characters)
"Also, you might consider threading up a Tacnet. You yourself cannot use it, but your drones and teammates can. "

I'm wondering why a Technomancer can't benefit from the Tacnet/Tacsoft?

From base, maybe I can see it since they won't be using trodes and such, but I'm thinking they just buy the SimRig Complex form (Unwired, pg 136), and then use that to add in their natural senses to the Tacnet that they themselves are running. As per Unwired pg 125 under Natural Senses, it says, "Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig each count as a sensor channel." If they have the Smartlink Complex form (Smartlink is listed under the Cybernetic Senses section as a valid channel) and a smartgun (to provide the actual sensor input), they can get the minimum 4 senses to be part of a Level 2 Tacnet.

Am I missing some other rules part that makes this setup not work?


Thanks!
Carz

Not that I can see... and alternate vision modes from eye gear and other sensors slaved to your bionode would count as senses, as well. That means it's easy-peasy to get up to the 8-channel requirement.

Great, now I want to make a blind Technomancer that uses drones to see.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Tsuzua on (15:36:51/07-13-12)
The technomancers can totally join a tacnet in the sense of getting enough sensor channels.  It's more what will they do once they have it?  They ought to be hiding in their rigger cocoon and fight via their drones.  In small groups, I can see hooking up the technomancer just to meet the minimum member threshold.  The drones themselves have the channels to join a tacnet.  I suspect UmaroVI assumes that when command rigging, the drone needs the channels not you. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (19:18:57/07-13-12)
Pretty much. The technomancer really shouldn't be buying those complex forms either; it's very cheap to just slap on enough sensor channels to join a tacnet, if you so desire, although I recommend doing it after gameplay starts because technomancers are always very tight at chargen. It's more that the technomancer really wants their drones on the tacnet, but they themselves should be trying to hide in a rigger cocoon where the tacnet doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Carz on (01:54:35/07-14-12)
Cool, that makes sense. UmaroVI's note was meant to be a tactical suggestion based on party role.

I just have a PC in my game that is becoming a technomancer (modified latent emergence), who currently fills a team role of second gunman (and will have to for a while longer), so he would likely be interested in tacsofts when I introduce that to the game (new group, just learning all the rules). I just wanted to make sure he could use them, if he chose to.

Thanks all!
Carz
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (04:00:35/07-19-12)
Raggedhalo,

Unfortunately, this is one of those issues.

What happened is that, in SR4, it was definitely capacity cost equal to rating. Then in SR4A, there's a clusterfuck where different editions of the book and the pdf and everything sometimes do and don't have that line. The Changes Reference errata (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/SR4A_changes.pdf) clarifies that it is supposed to be everything costs 1 capacity, except Ultrasound which costs 2. I did not discover that last stealth errata until now, so I'm fixing that one.

Out of curiosity, has there been a clarification on this by one of the developers? Is it audio enhancement rating = capacity like the SR4A book says, or is it each enhancement (except Ultrasound) costs one capacity, like the Changes .pdf says? If there has been a clarification either way, could someone please point me to it? I am making up several Missions legal characters for the next game and I want to make sure I get them correct, so that I do not need to have to adjust them during the game. Thanks!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:04:43/07-19-12)
Not as far as I know, no. I wouldn't hold your breath for errata.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (19:25:24/07-19-12)
Not as far as I know, no. I wouldn't hold your breath for errata.

Well, crud! I was really hoping to have the characters all ready to go (as is), without having some last minute tweaking to do. I guess I'll just adjust the audio enhancement ratings downwards, so that they match what Hero Lab says they should be. It doesn't make much sense to me though; there's more space in an earbud to place enhancements than there would be in a contact, due to the thinness of the lense.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (00:01:56/07-21-12)
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not, but I found an error with the Negotiator's essence calculations: I think you put the decimal in the wrong place when calculating it; .8 (cyberarm essence cost) / 10 (Biocompatability (Cyberware) Quality) would be .08 removed, not .1 removed. So instead of making the essence loss for the cyberarm .7, it should be .72. This of course means that you lose an extra point of magic (with a 4.98 essence), putting the build 1 power point over what it can actually spend on adept powers.  :'(
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:55:42/07-21-12)
I think you multiply for Second-Hand, but add for the other cost reductions. I know some things multiply and some things add, but I'm not sure where this one is; I'm going to look into it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:06:10/07-21-12)
Well, shit. Adapsin says that it is "in addition" to grade reductions, and also says to "round normally" (WTF? Since when do you round essence costs at all?). Second-hand multiplies. Biocompatibility doesn't say. I think Biocompatibility working like Adapsin makes more sense, as Adapsin is also a cost reduction.

On further thought, Way+Gaesa is also additive. I can't think of any examples of two discounts (or two markups) that are explicitly multiplicative; only Second-Hand Ware (which is a discount and a markup multiplying).

Based on this, I'm inclined to stick with additive (ie, both of them discount the base value), since that seems to be the standard for how SR does it. I'm going to take another look through the rules and possibly a straw poll, though.

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (13:30:45/07-21-12)
Well, shit. Adapsin says that it is "in addition" to grade reductions, and also says to "round normally" (WTF? Since when do you round essence costs at all?). Second-hand multiplies. Biocompatibility doesn't say. I think Biocompatibility working like Adapsin makes more sense, as Adapsin is also a cost reduction.

On further thought, Way+Gaesa is also additive. I can't think of any examples of two discounts (or two markups) that are explicitly multiplicative; only Second-Hand Ware (which is a discount and a markup multiplying).

Based on this, I'm inclined to stick with additive (ie, both of them discount the base value), since that seems to be the standard for how SR does it. I'm going to take another look through the rules and possibly a straw poll, though.

I believe that the rounding for SR4 was what (in my opinion) all games should do, round toward most favorable for the player. I may be thinking of a different game though.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:19:31/07-22-12)
OK, I'm seeing a general consensus towards "additive" so I'm going to leave it like that, but include a note.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Snaryl on (05:09:47/08-01-12)
UmaroVI, on your archetypes under "tactics" you often have a line like:

"If you want to spend Edge on a test and are rolling 6 or more dice, you’re better off spending the edge after rolling to reroll failures."

Could you explain how you got those numbers (as I've noticed they change from archetype to archetype)? It's be great to know how to modify the character and then still know how to roll Edge in the most statistically beneficial way.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:47:44/08-01-12)
18/7 of your edge score is the break even point (where pre-declaring and rerolling misses are exactly equal in expected number of hits). Over that, you are better off rerolling; under that, you are better off predeclaring.

There are a few niche exceptions (if it's really close, but the amount of hits you need is above the expected value, you should predeclare because it's more volatile) but 18/7 is a very good rule of thumb. The actual numbers are 18/7*Edge rounded up (so for example, edge 2 would be 36/7, or 5 and a seventh. You can't have a seventh of a dice, so 5 or less you should predeclare, 6 or more you should reroll).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Cantor on (12:07:09/08-01-12)
18/7 of your edge score is the break even point (where pre-declaring and rerolling misses are exactly equal in expected number of hits). Over that, you are better off rerolling; under that, you are better off predeclaring.

There are a few niche exceptions (if it's really close, but the amount of hits you need is above the expected value, you should predeclare because it's more volatile) but 18/7 is a very good rule of thumb. The actual numbers are 18/7*Edge rounded up (so for example, edge 2 would be 36/7, or 5 and a seventh. You can't have a seventh of a dice, so 5 or less you should predeclare, 6 or more you should reroll).

So, if I'm understanding this right, a character with 8 Edge, (Human, Lucky) would pre-declare edge use on pools of 20, and re-roll pools of 21 or more?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (12:32:50/08-01-12)
Right.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Snaryl on (17:18:35/08-01-12)
Awesome, thank you for breaking that down for me!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: sway on (05:07:11/08-24-12)
I don't know if this has been mentioned already or if maybe I'm missing something, but I think the Armor on the Martial Artist is a bit off.

I'm getting 12/12 from the armor which would be 2 over limit on both sides, since the MA has Body 5. I believe the vitals protector and arm/leg casings need to be deleted from the armor set-up.

By the looks of things, unless I'm missing something, this was probably just a copy/paste typo (as a similar armor set-up is used on all the Archetypes).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:45:35/08-24-12)
You are indeed right; fixed (the amount of armor listed in his summary was right, but the equipment listing had too much).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: sway on (19:49:56/08-24-12)
Yeah, I was just looking at the archetype while mulling over how I want to do an unarmed combat guy and I figured it was just a copy/paste thing because the numbers were right elsewhere.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: odd on (12:23:53/08-28-12)
UmaroVI, I noticed that the Martial Artist has a base Agility of 5 and only has it marked for 40 BP, but since trolls max agility is 5, shouldn't it cost 55?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Operator on (12:31:29/08-28-12)
UmaroVI, I noticed that the Martial Artist has a base Agility of 5 and only has it marked for 40 BP, but since trolls max agility is 5, shouldn't it cost 55?

The Martial Artist bought Genetic Optimization (Agility), which extends the maximum stat values to 6 unaugmented and 9 augmented.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (16:00:16/09-17-12)
Ok, I could be wrong about this, but when reading the ghost I noticed that they had 12 agility augmented.  But in the SR4A it says that the max augmented agility and elf can have is 10.  I know about genetic optimization, but from what I understand it can only be done once, and costs .2 essence. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Pyromaster13 on (16:10:26/09-17-12)
Ok, I could be wrong about this, but when reading the ghost I noticed that they had 12 agility augmented.  But in the SR4A it says that the max augmented agility and elf can have is 10.  I know about genetic optimization, but from what I understand it can only be done once.

Max augmented attributes are 1.5 times the natural maximum rounded down.  Naturally for an elf it's 7, so 7/2=3.5 rounded down is 3, so 3+7= maximum augmented 10.  When you get genetic optimization once it bumps the elves 7 to 8, and 8/2=4 so the new augmented maximum is 8+4= maximum augmented 12.

This is why trolls have an augmented maximum of 15 on STR and BOD.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (16:48:35/09-17-12)
Oh cool, thanks for clearing that up.  Oh, and your name is awesome, I love setting things on fire. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: metalslvg on (18:20:53/09-18-12)
I have a question with a specific archtype in question, the Merc Rigger. Is it possible for him to load an Agent with Command so he can be doing his thing, hacking a such, and then the Agent program is commanding his LEBD-1 drone?

I only ask because I see there are no Autosofts for the drone, so as far as I understand with my limited experience, he can only control it via command (or jumped in, but the archetype isn't set up for that). It seems that this would be a big disadvantage if he was on a mission and needed a fast escape and needed to individually command each drone to leave instead of giving the GTFO autosoft it's time to shine.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (23:06:00/09-18-12)
In theory, yes, an agent can run a vehicle with Command, but it won't have the skills it needs to actually be good at it.

The reason the Mercenary Rigger doesn't start with autonomous drones is mainly that they get expensive really quickly if they're going to be much good; Missions rules means no sharing autosofts between drones of the same type, so you have to buy each drone its autosofts separately. You also can't get them very large dice pools. What autonomous drones are good for is backup fire support; you can get combat drones with OK defenses and OK attacks that can do things effectively on their own, but what you would actually want to do is Command the most critical vehicle himself and have autonomous drones provide support.

Also, do keep in mind that even without autosofts, drones can handle things like following you, getting in a van, or the like.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (00:57:14/09-19-12)
On the ghost archetype for the Yamaha Sakura Fubiki it says you roll 22 dice, but the agility is 12 augmented and the pistols with specialization is 8, which is 20.  Where did those last two dice come from?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Mad Hamish on (01:03:03/09-19-12)
Dracain,
if you look down the list it has the entry
Yamaha Sakura Fubuki (2000) with External Smartgun System (400), Chameleon Coating (1000), Silencer (200)

so it comes from the smartgun
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (01:03:32/09-19-12)
Smartlink does +2, yarp.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (01:11:47/09-19-12)
Whoops, damn, how did I miss that?  Thanks for pointing that out.  I really should stop forum surfing when I am sleep deprived, it's gonna bite me someday.  But I am still confused as to why genetic optimization says it costs .1 ESS on the ghost, when in Augmentation, it says .2 ESS. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (05:14:16/09-20-12)
He has more cyberware than bioware and thus halves essence loss from bioware.

Rasmus
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (15:37:42/09-20-12)
He has more cyberware than bioware and thus halves essence loss from bioware.

Rasmus
I thought that too, but the essence cost on the other bioware is full.  The only one that is halved is genetic optimization.  It should be 0.2+0.8+0.7+0.3=2, but then cut that in half to get 1.  If you want to cut the numbers in half first it is 0.1+0.4+0.35+0.15=1. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (22:39:14/09-20-12)
That one was an error. Thank you for pointing it out; it is now corrected.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (08:10:41/09-21-12)
On the issue of the Riggers and drones, specifically the Technomancer one (the InfoSavant):

Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better for the technomancer to order a drone to do something, rather than commanding it themself? As I understand it, a drone commanded by that build would only get 1 IP, but if ordered to do something (i.e. shoot the troll), and then allowed to do it itself, it gets 3 IPs. I ask because I need to change characters in my group, due to triple redundancy of characters, and am trying to decide between the two Rigger builds you have. Being a tiny technomancer matrix god (eventually) piques my curiosity, and I love all the toys that build gets to play with, but I need to think of the greater good for the team as a whole as well. As I understand it, the Mercenary Rigger would get three IPs due to the cyberware, in any situation. Other than the technomancer abilities (threading, sprites, matrix godliness, etc.), why would one choose the InfoSavant over the Mercenary Rigger?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (08:36:02/09-21-12)
You'd only get 1 IP commanding from AR. The Info Savant is set up to normally command from VR while inside the Dodge Guardian's rigger cocoon and/or the Vista.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (08:41:39/09-21-12)
You'd only get 1 IP commanding from AR. The Info Savant is set up to normally command from VR while inside the Dodge Guardian's rigger cocoon and/or the Vista.
Oh, my bad. Nevermind then! I'll use the InfoSavant then!  ;D
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (22:14:16/09-22-12)
If I may make a suggestion on the ghost.  You can drop muscle toner to 3 and reaction enhancers to 1 and the stats will still be the same because of the suprathyroid gland, as it is, you're going over the cap by 1 point on both reaction and agility .  It isn't much, but it does save 18,000¥. 

Oh, and on an unrelated note, why does the ghost have so much willpower?  I can see 3 or 4 being enough, and then another point could go into body for better armor. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (22:29:48/09-22-12)
The Agility is actually exactly at the cap. Elves normally have 7/10, the Ghost has Genetic Optimization(Agility) which makes it 8/12, and has base 7, +4 toner, +1 suprathyroid.

Reaction is a bit odd. Technically, the Reaction bonus from suprathyroid gland and the Reaction bonus from Reaction Enhancers don't stack. This is really stupid and frequently houseruled, but I'm sticking to the rules as written for the Archetypes, even when they are really dumb. If your GM rules they do stack, I'd actually drop base Reaction by a point; the 10 bp are more useful to free up.

Willpower is useful for stun boxes and for resisting some of the most common attack spells. It's a reasonable choice to have less Willpower and more Body, but not necessarily better.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (22:53:31/09-22-12)
Thanks for clearing that up.  I don't know how I messed up on the agility calculations.  On an unrelated note, where does all the recoil for the Ingram White Knight come from on the Bad Enough Trog?  I ask because I see no way it could reach 11.  The highest I see it reaching are 9 with the gyromount from the left arm and the folding stock all ready. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (23:18:33/09-22-12)
Huh, it should actually be 10, not 11. Missions uses the recoil compensation from high strength rules, but that still makes only 10. Oops. He only needs 9 at most, so it doesn't matter too much, but I fixed it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (23:42:43/09-22-12)
Ok, where are these RC from high strength rules?  I keep hearing about them and cannot find them anywhere.  I would greatly appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (23:51:26/09-22-12)
Arsenal 163
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dracain on (00:16:30/09-23-12)
Thanks for the quick answer.  It cleared my confusion right up. 
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (03:47:49/09-27-12)
I have a question regarding the InfoSavant's stream: Since it is primarily a rigger, would the Dronomancer stream be a valid choice as well? As I understand it, it uses the same stats to resist fading as the Info Savant stream; the only difference being the types of sprites available. Since Dronomancer still has the machine sprite available, would I be hurting myself if I went with Dronomancer instead of Info Savant?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (12:26:46/09-27-12)
The big loss would be access to paladin sprites, which are some of the best hacking protection a technomancer can have. You will, on the other hand, gain tutor sprites, which are very useful. As far as I can tell, you'd be fine either way though!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (20:36:56/09-27-12)
Both are valid choices. You're swapping Courier, Code, and Paladin for Crack, Tutor, and Fault.

Courier sprites are useless.
Crack sprites are OK, but they don't really bring anything unique. They can very reliably do kick-down-the-door-grab-the-data-while-Mute-is-up hacking.

Paladin sprites are really good at stopping you from getting WTFPwnt in cybercombat, and can very slowly win pretty much any cybercombat for you.
Fault sprites bring the WTFPwn.exe, but unlike Paladin sprites don't have a way to defend you aside from shooting first.
I'd rather have Paladin sprites, but it's not a big deal.

Code and Tutor sprites are both really good. I think Tutor is actually better because they are so flexible, but Probability Distribution is really good as well. In the long run, it doesn't matter because you definitely want to Sprite Link whichever you don't have anyways. In the short run, I would rather have Tutor.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (21:26:33/09-27-12)
Both are valid choices. You're swapping Courier, Code, and Paladin for Crack, Tutor, and Fault.

Courier sprites are useless.
Crack sprites are OK, but they don't really bring anything unique. They can very reliably do kick-down-the-door-grab-the-data-while-Mute-is-up hacking.

Paladin sprites are really good at stopping you from getting WTFPwnt in cybercombat, and can very slowly win pretty much any cybercombat for you.
Fault sprites bring the WTFPwn.exe, but unlike Paladin sprites don't have a way to defend you aside from shooting first.
I'd rather have Paladin sprites, but it's not a big deal.

Code and Tutor sprites are both really good. I think Tutor is actually better because they are so flexible, but Probability Distribution is really good as well. In the long run, it doesn't matter because you definitely want to Sprite Link whichever you don't have anyways. In the short run, I would rather have Tutor.

So, what I'm taking away from this is that Dronomancer avoids the utterly useless Courier Sprite, and gets you some major face-busting power, at the cost of a Sprite Link Echo to get some Paladin Sprite tankage?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Orvich on (22:21:19/09-27-12)
Probability distribution doesn't seem so useful, not unless it stacks with assist operation.

From what I can tell, assist operation allows any sprite (and in fact, EVERY sprite) to add its rating to any program used by the summoning technomancer, without any sort of limitations written in. Probability distribution seems trickier to use, and adds half the rating of the sprite to a dicepool (Assuming it succeeds its roll against the rating of the node), with the ability to instead remove it from an enemy. Is this removal part what makes it useful?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (23:08:53/09-27-12)
No, it's that it does in fact stack because it's a dice pool bonus, not a modifier to CF rating (Assist Operation can't take you over Resonance x2). Also, Probability Distribution can work on things that aren't a technomancer, too - it can assist another sprite, or a mundane matrix user, for example.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dog Boy on (01:09:30/09-28-12)
No, it's that it does in fact stack because it's a dice pool bonus, not a modifier to CF rating (Assist Operation can't take you over Resonance x2). Also, Probability Distribution can

I thought Assist Operation was uncapped -- and it's threading that's limited by (Resonance x 2). Of course, it doesn't seem like a bad idea, since it's possible to compile a sprite greater than your resonance.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (01:05:11/09-29-12)
Ok, I'll go ahead with the dronomancer stream then. Thanks for the replies!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (12:21:59/09-30-12)
There's some funny stuff where Threading says Resonance x2 is the cap under Threading, and it's not stated if it's supposed to apply to Assist Operation. I don't see many GMs letting that one fly. Either way, though, since PD stacks with AO, it's always good.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (08:23:06/10-18-12)
Out of curiosity, will you be making sample characters for the 2050 Shadowrun version?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:11:09/10-18-12)
Most likely no, sorry.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (10:28:50/10-18-12)
Most likely no, sorry.

No worries, I was just curious if the sample characters in that book were as bad as some of the sample characters in the SR4A book (Weapons Expert, etc.). I'm planning to run a game in that era for my group, but I wasn't sure if I should recommend them or not to the players.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:43:37/10-18-12)
At a quick glance through: they are pretty bad. Some highlights: the Shaman has no listed Magic stat (editing lol, who needs editors?), the Bodyguard took Restriced Gear for Dermal Plating 3, and the unarmed combat adept forgot to buy Critical Strike.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Dinendae on (20:21:49/10-18-12)
At a quick glance through: they are pretty bad. Some highlights: the Shaman has no listed Magic stat (editing lol, who needs editors?), the Bodyguard took Restriced Gear for Dermal Plating 3, and the unarmed combat adept forgot to buy Critical Strike.

Ok, make their own characters it is! Thanks!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Rocksor on (08:50:12/11-21-12)
Hi,

I am interested in why you choose not to max Magic to 6 with your characters?

Also I am interested in why some of the magic active characters have reduced magic because of essence loss?

Can you explain to me why chose to do it this way?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (08:51:13/11-23-12)
Hard capping any stat is almost never worth it. 25 BP now vs 30 karma later is not a good deal. The main exceptions are technomancers and resonance (saves points over the long run because of how CFs are priced) and edge cases where the hard cap is very high (like 8+).

One magician has essence loss (the burnout combat mage). It's a tradeoff for magicians, he ends up trading offense for defense. All the adepts do because it's hugely advantageous to them to have a small amount of ware.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JustADude on (16:03:11/11-23-12)
Hard capping any stat is almost never worth it. 25 BP now vs 30 karma later is not a good deal. The main exceptions are technomancers and resonance (saves points over the long run because of how CFs are priced) and edge cases where the hard cap is very high (like 8+).

And if the cap is 10, such as Trolls' Strength and Body, you actually end up saving, since 1 BP is worth a fraction less than 2 Karma.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Devil on (16:48:49/12-12-12)
I'd like to request a Human B&E Specialist/Hacker sample character please.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: GoodbyeSoberDay on (02:47:02/12-19-12)
First off, I'd like to say great job!  As a newb to shadowrun I found these builds to be very informative, both for general character building and just as a way to explore the vast set of rules and how they interact with each other.  The game of "what goes into that dice pool?" helped me quite a bit.

I understand that all your actual recommended adepts are augmented because there's so much you can get for that essence compared to those last points of magic.  Does the inclusion of shapeshifters into a game change this?  I see the huge stat increases and the fast healing (among other things), and my gut answer is that an unaugmented shapeshifter adept is playable, but perhaps their BP cost is too high for what they provide.  Thoughts?

-GBSD
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:31:53/12-19-12)
The problem with being an shapeshifter adept is not the lack of augments, but rather the crippling effects of being dual-natured with no ranged astral attacks. You a permanently stuck on a plane where nearly everyone else can fly and shoot lasers, and you can only fight people who are willing to come right next to you. Also, your teammates mostly can't help. For this reason, if you want to be a physical combat focused shifter, I recommend being a Mystic Adept and using buffs on yourself, which gives you the ability to do some stuff to defend yourself on the astral (and also to summon spirits who can help on the astral).

If your GM is going to softball the drawbacks of being dual-natured, then shapeshifter adept is perfectly fine, depending on type - they aren't well balanced relative to one another. Tiger/Lion is the best if you want to focus on physical combat.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Caimbuel on (07:17:54/01-25-13)
Any idea on how I can when using Chummer for it to use the Cyber arms statistics rather than the base Agility? I am currently trying to recreate the Generalist in Chummer, and so far so good with the minor exception that Chummer wont recognize the Firearms being used in the right arms statistic but uses the base Stats of 1 Agility instead.

Anyone know of a way around this or how to make it recognize that I am shooting with the right arm and not my natural arm?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:57:09/01-26-13)
I'm afraid I have no clue about how to make Chummer do that. I'd suggest trying the dumpshock Chummer thread - I think you're more likely to get the answer there.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Caimbuel on (00:53:58/01-29-13)
[Availability 21, 12300Y]      Purchase Tactical Software 4, Ergonomic
   Note: You and all other Archetypes characters (aside from the Technomancer) can use this tacnet. You need 5 other people in this tacnet for it to work.

So do the other 5 people have to ALSO purchase the Tacsoft and install it? or is there another way?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:20:14/01-29-13)
You can run a centralized TacNet. See Unwired for the Tacnet rules, but the short version is that everyone else slaves to the TacNet owner's commlink.

You can also run a decentralized TacNet, but that does indeed require everyone own their own TacNet program and be able to run it on their own. (If you aren't in missions, you can pirate it, but you do still need to be able to run it at least).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Caimbuel on (07:06:38/02-01-13)
Im finding it hard to recreate the Generalist in some areas.

Morissey Elan       5P   -1   SA   1   23(dice)    5(c)      -10
(Ex-Explosive)

When I check my dice total for the Elan, It comes out to 17 Dice, which is equal to the Ruger, why is it listed at 23 Dice? typo?   
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:19:02/02-01-13)
That was a typo and has been fixed. Thanks for spotting it!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Mist_Wave on (08:51:14/02-05-13)
Ok, just a question like this... some of the characters are busting the caps (stats, etc) so I dont know if its me or I missed something? (elude me if i`m wrong lol)... but i have 2 example:
First, your negotiator have some augmentation for a total of 1.2 so he`s suppose to loose 2 magic but in the stat you wrote 4 but then in the "Suggested Purchases" you said boost it to 4 :/.
Second, the Ghost have 12 agility but the max for an elf is 7(10) o,O and in the "Suggested Purchases" at the end you put some augmentation (it is Suggested so...) but this clearly bust the essence. xD

thank you in advance.

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:37:52/02-05-13)
The Negotiator has 1 point of augmentation and 1 essence loss, not 1.2. The Suggested Purchases was a mistake; it should have been the suggestion to buy Magic to 5. Thanks for pointing that out.

The Ghost has Genetic Optimization (Agility) which increases the maximums.

Remember when calculating Essence loss that you take the larger of Bioware or Cyberware loss, plus half the smaller. So for example, the Negotiator has .7 of Cyberware and .6 of Bioware, so the total loss is .7 + (.6)/2 = 1.

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Caimbuel on (06:33:54/02-28-13)
I'm finding the Troll Martial Artist is blowing over the maximum allowed for attributes. I tested this in both Chummer and Hero Lab. can anyone confirm this? seems to go over about 30 points.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bannockburn on (14:49:41/02-28-13)
He has Genetic Optimization (Agility), which is why the 5th point in Agi isn't maxing the attribute out, thus costing 10BP instead of 25BP
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (15:09:44/02-28-13)
I think he has exactly 200 in attributes. Can you check where the Chummer characteristic costs disagree with the bp costs I listed?
bp   attribute                                  natural (augmented) value
0   Body               5
40   Agility               5(9)
40   Reaction            5(6)
40   Strength                    9
20   Charisma            3
30   Intuition                    4
10   Logic               2
20   Willpower            3
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bannockburn on (15:11:19/02-28-13)
UmaroVI: It happens when you buy up Agility before implanting the Genetic Optimization
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Caimbuel on (06:19:06/03-01-13)
Indeed, upon further investigation, the Genetic optimization trait seems to be the culprit here. All good now.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: MasterMikel on (21:16:40/03-01-13)
UmaroVI,

Have you considered making your archetypes in Chummer and/or Hero labs and making them available in this thread? I'd be willing to host them in my google drive if space is the issue, and I'd be willing to help put them together if the programs are the issue. That way you can stop repeating yourself every time someone tries to recreate it in Chummer or Hero Labs. :)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:18:14/03-01-13)
A few people started converting them but AFAIK nobody finished, and unfortunately I don't have the time/skill with either program to do it myself.

If you are interested in putting them into either program, I would be happy to link to wherever you put them.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (10:26:34/03-07-13)
The project wouldn't be so bad if we divided up the work.  I have a character built in chummer based on the gunslinger.  It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to convert him over.  I'll get the Gunslinger put together and in a shared GDrive tonight.  Does anyone else want to volunteer to do one?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (17:10:19/03-07-13)
I finished the Chummer file for Gunslinger and save it into a public Google Drive folder:

Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-ZCYmUlZuCcZmNVRzZwZlprQ3c/edit?usp=sharing)

I'll try to start knocking out a few more as time allows.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (17:40:01/03-08-13)
@UmaroVI I'm working on the Spirit Medium and Chummer doesn't allow Force as a Foci type.  It needs to be either Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion or Manipulation.  Which, as far as I can tell, is RAW.  How would you suggest it be altered for this Chummer project?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bannockburn on (17:49:53/03-08-13)
Hu? The spirit medium has a power focus and a sustaining focus (for health spells, I guess, in order to sustain improved reflexes)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (19:02:17/03-08-13)
Ya, I figured as much.  The Power focus doesn't ask for a subtype but the sustaining one did.  After reading the tactics section I decided on going with Health.

I should have this one done later tonight.  You know, I don't mind doing these but I was kinda hoping someone might volunteer to do a couple too.  Anyone want to call dibs on their favorite?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RHat on (20:33:00/03-08-13)
I happen to be working on the Technoshaman right now, but can't find the Laser Rangefinder, Motion Sensor, or Thermometric sensor in Chummer...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (21:06:21/03-08-13)
I think you have to right click and add as a plugin.  It in there.  the gunslinger has the same thing.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RHat on (21:35:30/03-08-13)
Are there supposed to be any leftover points, here?  Because I seem to have an extra 9BP on the Technoshaman.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (21:56:28/03-08-13)
None of the builds I've tried have had extra points.  Although the Gunslinger did have a little extra cash from an armor adjustments I had to do due to chummer restrictions.  I just added more ammo.

On a separate note, here is another one:

Spirit Medium (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-ZCYmUlZuCcbUNLU3djVkF5aVU/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RHat on (22:20:05/03-08-13)
Found the error, all is done.

Technoshaman (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxV7fEVqDSckaUhSUGdHbUdTN1k/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (12:47:12/03-09-13)
I should have time to do another chummer conversion tonight if anyone has a request.

Okay, thanks for the message.  I'll give the Info Savant a shot... boy that one has a crapload of gear.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:35:52/03-09-13)
That was indeed meant to be a Health sustaining focus, it looks like I left out specifying "Health" but you were correct to make it that.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (14:38:06/03-09-13)
Added those two, thanks.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RHat on (01:57:01/03-10-13)
And, here's another one.

Infosavant (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxV7fEVqDSckeFpna0hxd3hLZk0/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (03:45:38/03-10-13)
NNOOOoo... LOL I just finished that one.

Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-ZCYmUlZuCcUXI4YnJVMUJuRVU/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: groduick on (14:40:43/03-13-13)
Here is the Mercenary Rigger (I wasn't able to add 3 Codeblock Neg. Quality, so I changed to Moderate Media Junkie).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: SladeWeston on (10:49:01/03-15-13)
I've started work on the Negotiator.  Let's not double up.  ;D
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Decade Rider on (20:01:31/03-21-13)
Man those sheets..those sheets..they hurt my eyes. See stuff that takes around 40 BP just to get 3-4 dice over the soft cap..they should come with a note saying "Warning Might GM's head to explode"
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: PittsburghRPGA on (14:06:03/03-29-13)
UmaroVI's Generalist. 

Note that Chummer does not calculate in the cyberarms stats (AGI9, BOD 9, STR 5) when using Pistols or Unarmed Combat.

     Dice Pools for Pistols using the cyberarm is AGI 9 + Skill 6 + 2 Smartlink for 17 Dice pool.

     Dice Pool for Unarmed Combat with the cyberarm is AGI 9 -1 for Defaulting for an 8 Dice pool and doing (STR 5/2)= 3 Stun.

Note that I had to increase the Strength because otherwise, the 10kg carrying capacity would render this character over-encumbered by putting on armor and a pistol. I did this by lowering CHA by 1 point which still leaves a decent Social skills Pool of 11 Dice.  I would add the cheeseriffic Empathy and Lie Detection Software at some point as well if you end up being the primary Face of the party.

Note that even though in UmaroVI's version the shockgloves had personalized grip, that's not a legal option as gloves do not have handles.

Note that in UmaroVi's original version, this character had a Form Fitting Full Body Suit and additional peices of Securetech, but this put the character so far over the BodyX2 Armor ratings that AGI would have been reduced to 1 impacting the ability to fire pistols with competency.  Exploited the round down math rules to squeeze out 2 extra points of ballistic with the Form Fitting Shirt though.

Also, hope I zipped the chummer file correctly.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (07:27:20/03-31-13)
As items do not have weights, carrying capacity for gear is de facto an optional rule and hence not used in missions. Assuming that specific sets of items fall between 10 and 20 kg requires making unfounded assumptions about the weight of items in the grimdark future of the 1980s. Also, it's best not to think too hard about the carrying capacity rules.

The requirement is "handle or grip." Gloves have a grip.

I show the armor adding up correctly. Perhaps you were inputting it into chummer incorrectly?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: PittsburghRPGA on (10:14:09/04-01-13)
Carrying Capacity and Encumbrance on page 310 of the 4A rule book are not listed as optional rules.  And while items do not have a listed weight, they do weigh something. Otherwise, I can keep my Doberman drone in my backpack since it doesn't weigh anything.  ::)    Making the unfounded assumption that things weigh nothing is what gets players hit by phonebooks by angry GMs. 

A grip (noun) is an external handle by which you hold an object and also known as a handgrip.  A pistol has a grip. A rifle may have a top mounted carrying grip or a pistol grip or none at all.  A suitcase has a grip. A chainsaw has a grip. A tennis racket has a grip. Pliers and hammers have a grip. Gloves are worn and as such are not held by a grip to function properly.  I'm sorry, but  I cannot agree that gloves have a grip for the purposes of something like a personalized grip.

I opened up Chummer after reading your note about the armor, I deleted every peice of armor, and rebought everything except the arm and leg casings since Chummer doesn't have an option to wear only one part of that. So, I bought only the leg casings. It works now. Perhaps that's the culprit. Or perhaps when I first did it, I bought the armor before the cyberarm. I don't know for sure. 

I do feel a bit cheesy about not wearing the matching shirt to go with the Vashon jacket and pants, so I bought a generic 300Y clothing item and named it Vashon Island Synergist Shirt w/o Ballistic threads.  (Gotta wear the fancy shirt instead of a t-shirt since this ain't Miami Vice after all.) Also added some spare clips to each pistol capable of taking them.

I put the remaining few hundred nuyen on a certified standard credstick.

Rezipping and attaching the modified file.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (11:12:40/04-01-13)
We will have to agree to disagree about the carrying capacity rules.

The grip of a glove is the part that goes over your palm and the inside of your fingers. I see no reason why this could not be personalized to fit a particular person's palm and fingers better, and it is legal under the rules.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RHat on (21:08:29/04-01-13)
Carrying Capacity and Encumbrance on page 310 of the 4A rule book are not listed as optional rules.  And while items do not have a listed weight, they do weigh something. Otherwise, I can keep my Doberman drone in my backpack since it doesn't weigh anything.  ::)    Making the unfounded assumption that things weigh nothing is what gets players hit by phonebooks by angry GMs.

Assigning any particular weight value, however, IS a houserule; it is not something that you can universally account for.  That is reason enough for the Archetypes not to account for such things.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Lemdul81 on (10:58:40/04-06-13)
Has anyone tried the Burnout Combat Mage in chummer yet?  For some reason the stats after cyberware are showing up as bod4, agi1, str4 instead of what is listed on the character description from umaro.  Not sure if i am doing something wrong or if chummer is just bad at math.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: bannockburn on (11:27:05/04-06-13)
Chummer isn't bad at math, it uses an averaged method of displaying the attributes. Pay it no mind, the character should work as is.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (21:16:35/04-06-13)
In particular, I think Chummer defaults to a wonky way of averaging for cyberlimbs, and you have to fiddle with the options.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Retrokinesis on (01:31:59/04-07-13)
Yup. Under Options -> General -> Character and Printing, it defaults to 6 limbs (including skull) instead of 5.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Parsnips on (18:32:47/07-07-13)
There's a typo in the Negotiator's description for Kinesics where it says "...tests made to gauge the Gunslinger Adept’s truthfulness...". Just thought you might want to know.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:36:34/07-08-13)
Thanks - fixed.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: stinkyettin on (18:11:19/07-17-13)
So I've noticed alot of use of War! during character creation, but I was under the impression that missions limited us to the core books only in the faq? Was there supplemental guidance given out regarding that?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: RelentlessImp on (19:03:45/07-17-13)
So I've noticed alot of use of War! during character creation, but I was under the impression that missions limited us to the core books only in the faq? Was there supplemental guidance given out regarding that?

Season 4 Missions were inclusive, save for what was specifically excluded by the FAQ.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: stinkyettin on (21:19:08/07-17-13)
Figured that, but saw that alot of folks used non-core books during character creation, but the FAQ disallows it.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (09:25:03/07-18-13)
Missions only banned the Shadowrun Options line (Way of the Adept and Way of the Samurai), and explicitly optional rules.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: stinkyettin on (09:36:18/07-18-13)
Right on, thanks.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Rebeldawg on (21:28:55/08-04-13)
Could someone make the combat hacker for me?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Bonnie-chan on (12:19:08/08-13-13)
First, good work on your different builds, they're really cool ^^

Just one thing bothers me : The Combat Hacker only paid 40000 on his Suprathyroid Gland. Normal or is it a mistake ?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (13:26:55/08-13-13)
0.o That one seems to have slipped past. I'm going to take another look at it in case I forgot something, but that might be an error.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: PittsburghRPGA on (00:03:49/08-19-13)
Umaro,

Do you have any plans on making new Archetypes for Missions in 5th Ed?  I'm working on reverse building the book archetypes and making them Missions legal, but it'd be nice to have some additional build types available at Welcome to the Sixth World events.

Thanks,

Eric
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Michael Chandra on (04:46:07/08-19-13)
For Missions, I'd stick with Mission Legal Sample Characters myself. They are wider and thus less effective, but at the same time they let a player taste more options, giving them a better chance at determining what they want to build their real character with. Don't forget rewards gained at your first run with a Sample Character carry over when you make your own.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (10:10:34/08-20-13)
It's something I'd like to do, but I am definitely waiting on the errata and I also don't have the free time for about a month in any case.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Andrej553 on (03:06:50/09-20-13)
For the SR4 guys, here all Archtypes as Chummer files.

http://ul.to/rftdjzqf

Some have minor flaws, cause some prices are different in my chummer from Umaro's calculation. Maybe they are repriced in another book.
But because its just a few hundret NuYen, wich you can easily compensate with less ammunition, it should be okay.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: UmaroVI on (08:53:07/09-23-13)
Complete set by Andrej553:
Download: All files in a download (http://ul.to/rftdjzqf)

Individuals:
Former Neoprimitive (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekLW1lMzUtNTlXUHM/edit?usp=sharing)
Technoshaman (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekR3JkN0NNMFhOeGM/edit?usp=sharing)
Info Savant (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekRFpjdzF4NGo4bUE/edit?usp=sharing)
Transhuman Mystic (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekRkZTSEpQUFRsX2c/edit?usp=sharing)
Gunslinger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekT29pQUxZZ2FKaWM/edit?usp=sharing)
Mercenary Rigger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekTlFCMnM4OF83OTQ/edit?usp=sharing)
Spook (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekUEZyRU9yWGtZakk/edit?usp=sharing)
Negotiator (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekUVRCVDJOU0hnc1k/edit?usp=sharing)
Ghost (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekVVRFTGVPQl83TXc/edit?usp=sharing)
Magical Rocker (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekVkJfdzN4QmFEaDA/edit?usp=sharing)
Combat Hacker (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekVmpZZEJ5NHlOQU0/edit?usp=sharing)
Spirit Medium (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekWXlGWFFXd2p0UTA/edit?usp=sharing)
Generalist (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekYWhMNkVjTGNCWUU/edit?usp=sharing)
Bad Enough Trog (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekZ1pKQUV1QW9veGc/edit?usp=sharing)
Martial Artist (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekZXRGNERiaGFHWUE/edit?usp=sharing)
Ronin (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekaXdidGJoQ2tHNVU/edit?usp=sharing)
Paranormal Detective (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekamRxbks4OHo2amM/edit?usp=sharing)
Burnout Combat Mage (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0zYjBSFyDekbzdhX1NBbWttaWs/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: NeVeRLiFt on (10:13:27/10-20-13)
Thank you so much for making these!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Gaius on (07:24:32/11-23-13)
I like them that much that I would like to have some for Sr5 too!
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: cashmandu on (19:38:16/05-04-14)
I'd really like to remake the Spirit Medium for SR5, but it seems to be a massive challenge with the priority based chargen system, and I'm new to shadowrun (well, the last time I was familiar with it, i was a teenager and it was the mid 90s), so I'm not sure what to skimp on, anyone feel like helping me tackle it?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: TheLeBaron on (15:25:22/06-26-14)
Much like everyone else here, I love this! Used a couple of these guys for NPCs throughout my last campaign and even tailored another as my RPC. I'd love to see more.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: JmOz01 on (07:19:49/04-05-15)
I seem to recall some 5th edition revising of the archetypes (Considering the Street sam is something like a hundred karma over).  anyone know where I can find them?
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: 8-bit on (11:53:46/04-05-15)
I seem to recall some 5th edition revising of the archetypes (Considering the Street sam is something like a hundred karma over).  anyone know where I can find them?

They aren't all revised, but you can find the majority of them here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/character-creation-and-critique/(sr5)-reverse-engineering-and-repairing-the-archetypes/msg218332/#msg218332).
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: revan.be on (21:23:44/08-25-15)
You might not know this yet but your link leads to 404 not found.

For noobs overawed by the massive complexity of shadowrun ,
and basically anyone in a campaign with high lethality , the idea of a load of well built pregens is a great idea .

What would be even more awesome would be having all the different common archetypes,
also have at least one version of each of the different races.

Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (21:35:15/08-25-15)
You might not know this yet but your link leads to 404 not found.

For noobs overawed by the massive complexity of shadowrun ,
and basically anyone in a campaign with high lethality , the idea of a load of well built pregens is a great idea .

What would be even more awesome would be having all the different common archetypes,
also have at least one version of each of the different races.

These are only good for the previous edition. Check my signature for some for SR5, and it is intended for people to add their own as well.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Jame Rowe on (23:24:04/01-20-16)
Say, are the sample characters from the core book or Run Faster online? For those who want to print them out for pick-up games.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: All4BigGuns on (23:26:13/01-20-16)
Say, are the sample characters from the core book or Run Faster online? For those who want to print them out for pick-up games.

These are for SR4A not for SR5. The one in my signature has several for SR5.
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: Jame Rowe on (23:29:53/01-20-16)
Thank you for sharing those but not quite what I asked...
Title: Re: Archetypes: replacements for the Sample Characters
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:57:47/01-20-16)
Or, to directly answer your question, the Shadowrun Tabletop site itself is most likely to have them.