Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Shadowjack on (14:14:58/08-07-11)

Title: Street Legends Review
Post by: Shadowjack on (14:14:58/08-07-11)
I have only had about an hour to sift through the book so this review is hardly thorough. I am quite pleased with the purchase and this is one of the more interesting books I have now because it is very cool to be able to compare my characters to the legends in the book and see how they stack up. Some of the characters are insanely powerful and there is lots of great artwork and detailed information on the characters within. The book is a bit pricy but it is well worth it imo and I definitely recommend this product. My only real complaint is the overwhelming majority of the legends are Human and I don't recall seeing any Trolls or Dwarves. It would be really cool to see a Street Legends Volume 2 in the future which covers more non-humans.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (14:29:32/08-07-11)
But it's so easy to overlook dwarves.  Or to mistake trolls for a crumbling leather-covered wall.  That's why they weren't included.  :P

This message brought to you by the Humanis Policlub.  Humanis:  We think we're funny, and 100 goons in white robes aren't ever wrong.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (18:01:55/08-07-11)
The Daviar chapter is basically set in the future.

The three-part story Rusty and I wrote is not, and is something you should pay attention to because I suspect some people don't put as much importance into the fiction pieces of the books. If it's in the book it's there for a reason.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: AJCarrington on (20:10:53/08-07-11)
Very cool... :) ...thanks for that.

AJC
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (21:45:48/08-07-11)
My only real complaint is the overwhelming majority of the legends are Human and I don't recall seeing any Trolls or Dwarves. It would be really cool to see a Street Legends Volume 2 in the future which covers more non-humans.

I feel you on this, although I'd say if anything Elves were severely overloaded and Dwarves were severely underrepresented.

Might be we can do something to correct this in the future, although my dream supplement 7 Dwarves is probably never going to be a reality.  : (

I also played Shadowrun with easily 40 people at Gencon not one of whom was playing a dwarf. Not one! It makes me sad. Dwarves, like Rodney Dangerfield, don't get any respect.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (21:50:19/08-07-11)
Rodney Dangerfield III, Dwarf Comedian.

"Not only don't I get no respect like my grampa, I get overlooked by his career as well!  Of course, I get overlooked by everyone."  *Pulls Tie, Sweats A Lot*
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: grimjaws on (14:27:06/08-08-11)
My only real complaint is the overwhelming majority of the legends are Human and I don't recall seeing any Trolls or Dwarves. It would be really cool to see a Street Legends Volume 2 in the future which covers more non-humans.

I feel you on this, although I'd say if anything Elves were severely overloaded and Dwarves were severely underrepresented.

Might be we can do something to correct this in the future, although my dream supplement 7 Dwarves is probably never going to be a reality.  : (

I also played Shadowrun with easily 40 people at Gencon not one of whom was playing a dwarf. Not one! It makes me sad. Dwarves, like Rodney Dangerfield, don't get any respect.
How odd. I ran one mission and we had 3 of six players playing dwarves, and two of those were Awakened.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (14:32:48/08-08-11)
Unequal distribution of dwarves.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (19:46:32/08-08-11)
Unequal distribution of dwarves.
Dwarves of the Sixth World represent!!!

...

...

...

Are you guys holding up your hands?

Oh, I hear some of you now.  I'm sorry, I can't see you with all the Orks in the way...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: AJCarrington on (20:10:47/08-08-11)
Well played...sat here chuckling for 5 minutes... ;D

AJC
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:26:21/08-08-11)
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week!  Try the fish!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mystic on (20:40:18/08-08-11)
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week!  Try the fish!

Hey, I'm looking for my friend Larry. Poor sod started looking like a fish after that damn comet thing back in '61. Anyway, anyone seen.....AHHHHHH LARRY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:50:32/08-08-11)
Damnit, first the veal, now the fish.  JOHNNY!  Where the hell are you buying your meat?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Longshot23 on (13:05:47/08-09-11)
Just spent 2nd half of 6 hours reading SL . . .

What was that with Aina Dupree being found dead, and Ghostwalker going through the Rift?  Was that covered by one of Missions?

Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (14:00:17/08-09-11)
Just spent 2nd half of 6 hours reading SL . . .

What was that with Aina Dupree being found dead, and Ghostwalker going through the Rift?  Was that covered by one of Missions?
It'll be in Artifacts Unbound, which has just been delayed a bit.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Longshot23 on (01:25:59/08-10-11)
Ah.  Thanks for that, Critias. +1
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (01:29:20/08-10-11)
No problem, man.  It's all Kind Of A Big Deal (tm), so it's important folks understand it's gonna be covered, and soon, instead of thinking we just totally dropped the ball.   ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (12:23:13/08-10-11)
*Kicks the ball back into Critias' hands*  There you go.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (16:53:35/08-10-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (16:55:02/08-10-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Going through them today. So far, I'm up to the first Thorn story.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (18:30:18/08-10-11)
Up to killing game: This one is in need of a novel to finish off the story. Really good!

I also have liked all the others up to this one.

Edit: now I have read Thorn, and I could read about him allot. He is awesome, well written. I liked the part where he put down the messenger after realizing that he was going to have the option of sending the MSG out with another one :) Now this one is the best of the stories for me.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (20:57:46/08-10-11)
Up to killing game: This one is in need of a novel to finish off the story. Really good!

I also have liked all the others up to this one.

Edit: now I have read Thorn, and I could read about him allot. He is awesome, well written. I liked the part where he put down the messenger after realizing that he was going to have the option of sending the MSG out with another one :) Now this one is the best of the stories for me.
Thanks, man.  I'm glad you're enjoying it!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (22:15:14/08-10-11)
Enough about THorn...  What did folks think of Bull? ;)

<grin>

And despite all the hate she's getting (Mostly elsewhere), I really liked Kellan Colt's write up.  It sparked a few ideas for how I can use her in the near future...

And Cerberus is one of my favorite write ups.  But then, Dragon Hunt was always one of my favorite modules.

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (23:07:28/08-10-11)
I just want to add that Malik's intro fiction is awesome. No, I hadn't read it until now in spite of having access to PDFs of SL for months. In other news, shut up.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (23:31:10/08-10-11)
I'm in the middle of Lofwyr's entry now. So far, I've loved each character. And some may be making appearances in my home campaign after reading up on them...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (00:34:52/08-11-11)
Best Item ever: Red Sox 1906 World Series Ring

Best lore stumble:  I got my First Seattle Sourcebook in 1992 (I was 14) and There is an entry on page 141 about the initial’s "JB" on a mansion....Though I only played for a couple years before moving on from RPG's for several years I wondered if Jonathan Blake was "JB" and it was confirmed in this book.......amazing, simply amazing: Thank you for this nugget and so much more.

Edit: Forgot to Add: Miles Lanier ATT and Skills in Karma Gen = roughly 1712, and his Augmentations: roughly 7,125,000

Edit 2: If JB was informed in another source then I missed it lol, I only had a few of the books till this year.

Edit 3: Wow knight is messing with fire on that last story. Man....that is some scary shit he is failing at developing.

Edit 4: I liked that Thorn is now working with Nadja....great writing on all of them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Digital_Viking on (07:55:26/08-11-11)
or does the author just need a night with Bubba so he pays more attention to the plot next time?
Is this tone and attitude really helpful or necessary?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (08:02:44/08-11-11)
or does the author just need a night with Bubba so he pays more attention to the plot next time?
Is this tone and attitude really helpful or necessary?
if it works? yes.
if it doesn't? still yes, because venting frustrations is healthy.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (09:08:17/08-11-11)
or does the author just need a night with Bubba so he pays more attention to the plot next time?
Is this tone and attitude really helpful or necessary?
if it works? yes.
if it doesn't? still yes, because venting frustrations is healthy.
Except when the authors are on the board, read the comment and decide that it's no longer "fun" to listen to the players being disrespectful about their work.

Imagine if a complete stranger came into your job and started commenting that the work you'd done would be better if you spent a night with Bubba. How would that make you feel?

Remember folks, keep it civil and respectful. Having the freelancers and authors come by and visit the forums isn't a right, it's a privilege. And if we keep an atmosphere here that makes their visits unpleasant, they won't come back.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (09:10:33/08-11-11)
i do tech-support.
so i KNOW how that feels . .
and i have one standard answer for that:
"if you are doing your job right, nobody is going to complain."
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Digital_Viking on (09:14:01/08-11-11)
i do tech-support.
so i KNOW how that feels . .
and i have one standard answer for that:
"if you are doing your job right, nobody is going to complain."

Except you would be wrong. There will ALWAYS be someone unhappy for whatever reason, it may pertain to your work or it may have nothing at all to do with you and yet they complain,bitch,moan and are generally abusive and unhelpful. Doing your job right does not free you from complaints. Like Jack said, we need to keep it civil and respectful here be it a positive review or a critique.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (09:19:44/08-11-11)
i do tech-support.
so i KNOW how that feels . .
and i have one standard answer for that:
"if you are doing your job right, nobody is going to complain."
Since you do tech-support (as have I), you know that sometimes, no matter how well you do your job, people will complain.

Also, if a person keeps calling back, making the same complaints in the same disrespectful manner, do you write them off and ignore them when they call back again? Likewise, if a person is respectful to you while saying "I had a problem with X", you're more likely to help them, correct?

My overall point is that insulting the writers does nothing. They are going to keep writing when they get their assignments. They will come and check the boards here for feedback, but if a poster does nothing buy make disrespectful comments about their work without any merit, they will ignore that person--even if a later post does have some useful feedback. And if a LOT of posters do nothing but chime in with similar comments, then the writer will no longer visit our board since we've established that our feedback is useless vitriol.

[+1 to DV's ninja abilities]
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (09:53:57/08-11-11)
i do tech-support.
so i KNOW how that feels . .
and i have one standard answer for that:
"if you are doing your job right, nobody is going to complain."
Stahl, first rule of tech support, no matter how good a job you did, you borked the thing when it breaks the next time, even if it's completely unrelated.

I had it worse, I worked on home networks.  If ANOTHER computer broke for whatever reason I would be blamed and my supervisor would write me up for it as it was a complaint that went up the chain.

...

Honestly, the only reason I wasn't fired for being written up too many times is due to having been stuck in limbo supervisor-wise in that position.  Of course, it meant that I was stuck in limbo in everything as I never got reviewed (And thus no pay increases, shift changes, etc.), and that I never got any positive support either.

Prison rape in fiction is funny (In the right context.).  Otherwise Prison rape is a horrible, nasty thing.  And that's exactly what "A night with Bubba" is.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (10:01:41/08-11-11)
*shrugs*
I have customers asking for me specifically and calling back later, when i am not available . .
Also, i talk LONGER to the people who are not respectfull to me . . because every minute i can keep them on line costs them more money . .

As for FastJack . . we are not going to come to an accord here . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (10:07:58/08-11-11)
Ah, you're one of those "Pay By The Minute" tech support types.  Lucky bastard.

I had to do free tech support that was part of a person's monthly service.  I talked too long, *I* got in trouble.  No matter the reason for it.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (10:13:47/08-11-11)
same here, but i don't give a shit anymore . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: John Schmidt on (10:41:27/08-11-11)
I took it upon myself to remove Sengir's posts. Next time I am going to remove the offending individual/s.  
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (11:39:45/08-11-11)
And another message has been removed.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (11:48:50/08-11-11)
Come on children, play nice.

...

Damnit, I'm not supposed to be the old man here!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Sengir on (11:54:18/08-11-11)
And another message has been removed.
Because...?

I hope you don't  want to tell me you consider comparisons to other SR books derogatory, that would be horribly unkind to the author :(
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (12:07:46/08-11-11)
Sengir, c'mon.  You're obviously rubbing folks the wrong way here (moderators included), why not give it a rest for a day or two and just let folks cool down?  Whether you're meaning to or not, you're being seen as trolling, so maybe the safest route is just to let it lie for a bit.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Sengir on (12:32:32/08-11-11)
Whether you're meaning to or not, you're being seen as trolling, so maybe the safest route is just to let it lie for a bit.
Nah, I'd rather see the guys struggle to explain where the trolling was...or do whatever else they do, either way, it's going to be interesting to watch...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (13:15:15/08-11-11)
Keeping thread on topic, if it is possible could we please get a post on Akuchi knowledge skills? I see they are missing from his entry, if we wanted to use him as a contact or plot point it could be usefull to know his skill set. Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Paul on (15:28:23/08-11-11)
Nah, I'd rather see the guys struggle to explain where the trolling was...or do whatever else they do, either way, it's going to be interesting to watch...

Pity then that they're not in the business of discussing such in public.

Paul
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (15:57:57/08-11-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Okay, just finished the rest of the book. And can I just say WTF is Damien Knight even THINKING??

Of course, this all fits in perfectly with my home campaign now... ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Digital_Viking on (15:59:34/08-11-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Okay, just finished the rest of the book. And can I just say WTF is Damien Knight even THINKING??

Of course, this all fits in perfectly with my home campaign now... ;)
Like many powerful folk, the ego says " Of course YOU can control this, you are special and better than others"
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (18:22:31/08-11-11)
Best Item ever: Red Sox 1906 World Series Ring

...

Edit: Forgot to Add: Miles Lanier ATT and Skills in Karma Gen = roughly 1712, and his Augmentations: roughly 7,125,000

XD

Yeah, those numbers look about right at a glance.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (19:05:39/08-11-11)
Like many powerful folk, the ego says " Of course YOU can control this, you are special and better than others"
Oh $Deity save me from Alpha-Male Type A Personalities!

Hell, save the world!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Shadowjack on (19:58:01/08-11-11)
I came here to post about Miles Lanier but someone beat me to it :) That guy is a BEAST!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (20:31:31/08-11-11)
Got a question about the ring though...is it supposed to be 1903 -1904 Boston Americans or 1912 the first time the Americans won the series as the Red sox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_World_Series

The 1906 series was against the Cubs and the White sox of Chicago :( sorry for being pedantic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_World_Series

Edit: Because i feel like I am being an ass for pointing this out without a reason:  We are wondering if the ring or the Delta ware would cost more.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: DWC on (21:05:03/08-11-11)
His fake World Series ring is just, as far as I can tell, a running joke.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (21:07:31/08-11-11)
His fake World Series ring is just, as far as I can tell, a running joke.
Or proof he's from another dimension that has a different timeline...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Charybdis on (21:16:06/08-11-11)
i do tech-support.
so i KNOW how that feels . .
and i have one standard answer for that:
"if you are doing your job right, nobody is going to complain."
Slight clarification:

Someone may complain, but the people who know, KNOW and will sweep it under the rug accordingly.

Having been the tech support guy, the supervisor and the manager in various and seperate work incarnations, I can guarantee you this is what happens ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (21:45:01/08-11-11)
Got a question about the ring though...is it supposed to be 1903 -1904 Boston Americans or 1912 the first time the Americans won the series as the Red sox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_World_Series

The 1906 series was against the Cubs and the White sox of Chicago :( sorry for being pedantic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_World_Series

Edit: Because i feel like I am being an ass for pointing this out without a reason:  We are wondering if the ring or the Delta ware would cost more.
It's the 2013 ring. In the SR Universe, they won it again.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Chrona on (22:28:10/08-11-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Okay, just finished the rest of the book. And can I just say WTF is Damien Knight even THINKING??

Of course, this all fits in perfectly with my home campaign now... ;)

Want. To. Know.

I'll afford it one day
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Shadowjack on (00:12:01/08-12-11)
Can you put Hatchetman in Street Legends 2? :) (Yes, you need to make it!)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (00:15:34/08-12-11)
Can you put Hatchetman in Street Legends 2? :) (Yes, you need to make it!)
You mean where they buried him?

...

Actually, he's probably more likely a bunch of softdrink cans by now, considering how much metal they had in him at the end...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Shadowjack on (00:23:57/08-12-11)
I wasn't aware he was dead, that sucks :P
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (00:30:49/08-12-11)
He died, the Suits got him, and brought him back to life.

They had the technology, the thaumaturgy, and the complete lack of morals to turn him into something that was more machine than man, twisted and evil.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Charybdis on (01:58:46/08-12-11)
He died, the Suits got him, and brought him back to life.

They had the technology, the thaumaturgy, and the complete lack of morals to turn him into something that was more machine than man, twisted and evil.
Made a good story though....

Oh, and anyone who blames ARES for anything? Blame Hatchetman. According to lore, he pretty much saved the Megacorp, and was fatally wounded doing so.... but the borgi-fied him to say thank-you....
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (02:13:22/08-12-11)
"Thank you for your service.  In return, we'll have you provide more services for us.  Even after you've died."
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Charybdis on (02:30:47/08-12-11)
"Thank you for your service.  In return, we'll have you provide more services for us.  Even after you've died."
It's a Megacorp.... what did you expect? ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (02:33:14/08-12-11)
Got a question about the ring though...is it supposed to be 1903 -1904 Boston Americans or 1912 the first time the Americans won the series as the Red sox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_World_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_World_Series

The 1906 series was against the Cubs and the White sox of Chicago :( sorry for being pedantic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_World_Series

Edit: Because i feel like I am being an ass for pointing this out without a reason:  We are wondering if the ring or the Delta ware would cost more.

If there's an error/joke, it's a carry over from System Failure, which is where I got the idea for the ring for.

Of course, it's been established for a while now that Shadowrun takes place not in our universe anyway, but in a parallel one. So with that in mind, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (02:36:27/08-12-11)
It couldn't have been Ares. Ares didn't have cybermantic capabilities in 2056, only Fuchi (2), Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp, Tír na nÓg clinics existed with rumors of a sixth. I always thought it was Fuchi.

Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).


Nadja's chapter foretells certains things, and the story Rusty and I wrote helps explain how it gets there in case someone might want, oh I don't know, use material from the book in their games. It's apt that her reappearance is as logistically ... off ... as her disappearance. Almost as if it was intentional. :D





Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (02:39:12/08-12-11)
And Aina Dupree is?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (02:55:03/08-12-11)
An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.


(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (03:18:54/08-12-11)
Doesn't ring any...

Oh, wait, wasn't she the special guest star on "Karl Kombatmage" last season for two episodes?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (06:56:11/08-12-11)
Doesn't ring any...

Oh, wait, wasn't she the special guest star on "Karl Kombatmage" last season for two episodes?
dude?
what's wrong with you?
usually, you can rule and fluff fu with the best of them . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Longshot23 on (07:14:30/08-12-11)
It couldn't have been Ares. Ares didn't have cybermantic capabilities in 2056, only Fuchi (2), Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp, Tír na nÓg clinics existed with rumors of a sixth. I always thought it was Fuchi.

Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).


Nadja's chapter foretells certains things, and the story Rusty and I wrote helps explain how it gets there in case someone might want, oh I don't know, use material from the book in their games. It's apt that her reappearance is as logistically ... off ... as her disappearance. Almost as if it was intentional. :D

I thought Universal Omnitech was a prime candidate for a cybermantic clinic.

And FYI - I gave a shit about Aina Dupree.  Cautious warm fuzzies.  Though I never got to play to find out if working for her was a viable 'career track'.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (10:21:03/08-12-11)
dude?
what's wrong with you?
usually, you can rule and fluff fu with the best of them . .
I've been busy.  And even I can have a bad day.

I actually have quite a few of them, as a matter of fact.

This one got past me, sorry.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (10:53:19/08-12-11)
Regarding the ring: thanks for telling me about finding it in a previous supplement, that makes sense.

Regarding Dupree:

First I hope that there was some communication with Caroline Spencer concerning Dupree, she did invest three books about her.

Second: she is an important IE in shadowrun, she is the only one I have a solid place to draw on her personality and mannerisms as an NPC.  She is also a bridge for earthdawn, a game I played for four years as a youth and I bring allot of 4th age magic/lore into one of my plot lines.

Last:  do I care that she is dead, no... It is shadowrun, a universe that is full of magical and physical threats to eat your face off. People die, which I love: no one in this universe should be above the talon of death's touch.

I also want to add that I love the writing and work you do, I am a fan. I may not like every word printed, may seek clarification on things....hell I may even post a certain frustration on things. But at the end of the day I am grateful for yours and everyone else's work on expanding this shadowrun universe.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (14:53:53/08-12-11)
An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.


(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)

It's going to be hard making him give a shit about that character, since I don't in any way shape or form give a shit about her. I will endeavor to manage.

Normally when the word 'Mary Sue' comes up I get pissed, because I think it gets overused to a pretty disgusting degree by people with a much-too-broad definition of what it means. But Aina Dupree, if it's the character I'm thinking of, is one of the worst EVER.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Smirnov on (06:52:19/08-13-11)
Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).

An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.
(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)

It's going to be hard making him give a shit about that character, since I don't in any way shape or form give a shit about her. I will endeavor to manage.

Normally when the word 'Mary Sue' comes up I get pissed, because I think it gets overused to a pretty disgusting degree by people with a much-too-broad definition of what it means. But Aina Dupree, if it's the character I'm thinking of, is one of the worst EVER.
That's sad to read.
First of all, there are people who care about Aina. Our group for example. For ones, we have Aina as major NPC in the campaign.
Yes, Aina was a strange cookie in  an already disfunctional family that immortal elves are. But just because you try to avoid your slightly insane uncle whenever you can doesn't mean you don't love him. Especially not in the way 'since no one cares, she dies. Ha-ha!'
Secondly, Harlequin, Aina's close friend, one time lover, comrade-in-arms and one of the few people on earth (save probably the late Dunkelzahn) who took her seriously, wouldn't care about Aina? Wouldn't care about the death of one of the dozen, at most, human beings in the whole world who are on par with him? He may have had his reservations about her, but he loved her.
And I can understand that her death is part of the yet unpublished story (which must be real big as Aina is [should try using 'was'] second only to Harlequin himself in power), but the attitude towards it baffles me. If she is such unwanted child, why just don't leave her out? The death of the character of the scope Aina was is a big deal, it should serve some purpose other than just to get rid of her and make some big waves. This could as well wake other elves up. As far as I know, immortals have never previously lost one of their own.

To stop grumbling, the book itself is good and pretty. I have some issues with art for the last two chapters and Agent, but other than that art is superb.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (07:31:51/08-13-11)
We need harlekin to go on a city killing spree untill he has found the people responsible for her death and throws them all into the horrors waiting arms.

And that Posting is basically EVERYTHING that's wrong with current writing of shadowrun.
In. One. Single. Posting.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: WARRGARRRBL!!!1! on (08:01:11/08-13-11)
All right, I tried to be good, I really did but I just can't take it any more.

First off, I really don't care if you stat up Lofwyr, Harlequin et al.  I'm actually on the record as being of the opinion that the system allows for sufficiently big stat's that all the 'we blew up Lofwyr with an anti tank missile' masturbatory nonsense would be demonstrably just that.  Clarification on the two stupid 'I win' buttons would have been necessary but hardly difficult.

But for the love of God, Dawkins or whatever you call out to whenever you just can't take any more of the lunacy, could you at least have legendary, iconic NPC's designed by someone that knows the frakking rules.

I've been reading this thread, and others like it elsewhere, for several days now and I've so far managed to tolerate the nauseating, self-congratulatory back-slapping and the abusive mod attacks on critics for being 'unconstructive' but Nadja just tipped me over the edge.

IMPROVED ABILITY IS CAPPED AT 3!!!!!!!

If you don't know that you've got absolutely no business being employed in a professional capacity on a project like this.  And I'm not just talking about the primary author.  That howler has passed in front of at least a dozen pairs of eyes who all ought to have that sort of knowledge as a pre-requisite of acquiring the job that they have.

@Neurosis

Not a personal criticism.  However I'm afraid your confidence in Lugh is sadly over-rated.  Have a look on Dumpshock for the Fields of Fire campaign.  it was all very silly (or cinematic if you prefer) and never went very far but all the PC's qualified as 'legendary' (1250 karma, which works out as the original base of 750 plus exactly the 500 needed to be legendary) and I'm pretty sure every single one of them would have given Lugh a run for his money and I'm certain that one or two would have wiped the floor with him.

I agree that it is fine for a character like Rigger X to be poorly optimized but it is not okay for legendary icons like Lugh, Hestaby or Lofwyr.  They can have as much fluffy window dressing as you like but at their core they must be capable of handing the PC's their asses if need be.

Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Sengir on (09:38:54/08-13-11)
Pity then that they're not in the business of discussing such in public.
Oh, silence often is the most informative answer...

RE Ares, it's nice to see that this old storyline is apparently picking up steam. We're certainly in for a big shakeup if Ares' bug dealings ever come to a head...although I must admit that I'm wary of how  well CGL would handle such a major event, given their current problems even with some bread-and-butter stuff...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (10:15:34/08-13-11)
Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).

An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.
(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)

It's going to be hard making him give a shit about that character, since I don't in any way shape or form give a shit about her. I will endeavor to manage.

Normally when the word 'Mary Sue' comes up I get pissed, because I think it gets overused to a pretty disgusting degree by people with a much-too-broad definition of what it means. But Aina Dupree, if it's the character I'm thinking of, is one of the worst EVER.
That's sad to read.
First of all, there are people who care about Aina. Our group for example. For ones, we have Aina as major NPC in the campaign.
Yes, Aina was a strange cookie in  an already disfunctional family that immortal elves are. But just because you try to avoid your slightly insane uncle whenever you can doesn't mean you don't love him. Especially not in the way 'since no one cares, she dies. Ha-ha!'
Secondly, Harlequin, Aina's close friend, one time lover, comrade-in-arms and one of the few people on earth (save probably the late Dunkelzahn) who took her seriously, wouldn't care about Aina? Wouldn't care about the death of one of the dozen, at most, human beings in the whole world who are on par with him? He may have had his reservations about her, but he loved her.
And I can understand that her death is part of the yet unpublished story (which must be real big as Aina is [should try using 'was'] second only to Harlequin himself in power), but the attitude towards it baffles me. If she is such unwanted child, why just don't leave her out? The death of the character of the scope Aina was is a big deal, it should serve some purpose other than just to get rid of her and make some big waves. This could as well wake other elves up. As far as I know, immortals have never previously lost one of their own.

My comment was about the reaction, but you know, continue to assign my motives by pulling random nonsense out of thin air. That makes me smile.



Anyway, so IA caps at 3. Woops.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Clones R Us on (10:36:22/08-13-11)
Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).
And of course, it's common knowledge that if you find a body, the preson must be dead.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (10:37:49/08-13-11)
*sigh*
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: AJCarrington on (10:41:52/08-13-11)
--  SNIP  --

Wonderful, concise and clear criticism... ???

Personally, the stats are far less interesting/appealing to me as my focus in on the characters, their background and plot hooks.  I would actually expect the stats to be tweaked/modified by any GM to suit their campaign/needs.

AJC
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (10:47:23/08-13-11)
I can see Critias in his office wanting to murder me through his computer right now.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (11:14:30/08-13-11)
Hopefully when a few upcoming publications hit shelves, folks can see that we're really not being as casual and flippant about Aina's death as it may appear right this second.  Due to some unfortunate delays, the production schedule got shuffled around a little bit, and I think it pretty much came down to "we will NOT delay Street Legends," so things got put out in the wrong order (in the interest of having something big and awesome at GenCon).

One lesson I wish comic writers would learn, and something I muttered under my breath all through the last several years of sprawling crossovers, retcons, heroes turning out to be Skrulls, heroes turning into assholes over Superhuman Registration, etc, etc, is simply this:  everyone is someone's favorite character

Marvel and DC executives would be startled by the amount of comics I've got about Roy Harper/Arsenal/Red Arrow (with the pointed exception of the mini-series they recently wrote about him, which eviscerated him as a character), Bucky/Winter Soldier/Captain America (who I felt had just found his stride with the shield and the flag, before they tripped him up again), Hawkeye/Ronin/Clint Barton (who they seem unsure what to do with since he came back from the dead), Iron Fist (who had his own series for just long enough it went downhill before being canceled), or even Catman (so, hey, at least Secret Six is good).  I'm a sucker for a couple comic underdogs, and I've been fans of theirs for years and years.  When they get the limelight, I cheer, but I also cringe, because I always wonder if the current writer is as big a fan as I am, or if one of my favorites is about to get poleaxed because they think no one cares.

Everyone is someone's favorite character.

The same is true in the 22+ year metaplot we've got here at Shadowrun, and we're aware of it.  So while here just in casual conversation on the internet we might seem flippant or light-hearted about a casual death, please know that we're not.  The book was delayed because writers are taking their time and getting it right.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Otakusensei on (11:58:26/08-13-11)
To build off your analogy, watching the changes in the Shadowrun metaplot feels like watching the kids at the local comic shop come in and replace all the writers at Marvel for a year.  Things are inconsistent, continuity suffers and the over all feel is shoddy.  It's like I'm watching poorly produced fan fiction and netbooks getting published.

Bad choices are bad choices, even if you didn't make them or you feel they were the only choice that could be made.  Less people care about Shadowrun today than ever before, and for exactly the same reasons that someone would think damaging the metaplot and confusing the fanbase is a good plan in the scramble to make up for CGL's own inability to produce quality product on time for GenCon.  A splat books of stats for famous characters inherited by the current publisher is weak tea.  Sure it'll make some waves, so will killing off a character in a position of power that was the focus of a series of books.  But making waves is pointless when you're so far out of your depth.

CGL is making a poor run at wearing daddy's clothes and pretending that everything is professional and on the level.  After looking away for the better part of six months I come back and find that nothing has changed.

Yes, haters gonna hate.

See you in another six.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (12:09:26/08-13-11)
Quote
Everyone is someone's favorite character.
Everybody but Aquaman. Aquaman can talk to fish.

Otherwise, when freelancers(note the plural here) come out and SAY that they don't care about a character and then SAY that they killed them off because to them it SEEMED like everybody else did not either . .
Then that is just not right.
Aina, even if NOBODY had cared about her, was STILL one of the top 5 powerplayers in shadowrun . .
She was an immortal elf and if she was not as powerfull than Har'lea Quinn, she technically was MORE powerfull than him, because SHE had her own AA or tripple A MegaCorp to commandeer after The Nadja vanished . .
And because she, herself, could influence Caimbeul to do what she wanted too . . now FROSTY is the ONLY FRAGGING PERSON who has SOMEWHAT of an influence on him.
And as has been said, he is more powerfull than several adult and some great dragons . . And now somebody went and killed his lover/friend/comrade for literally hundreds, if not thousands of years . .
Go find Lofwyrs nest, show it to him. then show a steamroller driving over the eggs. The outcome would not be much different than this.
Those are things to be considered in such circumstances, even if nobody cares about her. Her death has in universe consequences damn it!
If it was not in the fight against the horrors or because of something she got pulled into because of Harlequin, then he will do what he can and what he wants to find who is responsible this and make them suffer for it.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (12:28:21/08-13-11)
One lesson I wish comic writers would learn, and something I muttered under my breath all through the last several years of sprawling crossovers, retcons, heroes turning out to be Skrulls, heroes turning into assholes over Superhuman Registration, etc, etc, is simply this:  everyone is someone's favorite character
Even Kane has fans.

...

Somewhere.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Smirnov on (12:31:46/08-13-11)
Hopefully when a few upcoming publications hit shelves, folks can see that we're really not being as casual and flippant about Aina's death as it may appear right this second.  Due to some unfortunate delays, the production schedule got shuffled around a little bit, and I think it pretty much came down to "we will NOT delay Street Legends," so things got put out in the wrong order (in the interest of having something big and awesome at GenCon).
Was leaving out that sentence considered an option? It doesn't seem that Aina's death had any impact on Nadja's description, but that would have left some intrigue for the upcoming book.

And I agree with Stahlseele, that's practically what I wanted to say.

Even Kane has fans.

...

Somewhere.
He's quite popular down here %)))
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (12:35:30/08-13-11)
He's also big in Japan.

Then then again, who isn't?  :P

...

Yes, I know, the special hell...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (12:42:16/08-13-11)
He's also big in Japan.

Then then again, who isn't?  :P

...

Yes, I know, the special hell...
Alphaville isn't.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Longshot23 on (12:52:30/08-13-11)
Quote
Everyone is someone's favorite character.
Everybody but Aquaman. Aquaman can talk to fish.

Otherwise, when freelancers(note the plural here) come out and SAY that they don't care about a character and then SAY that they killed them off because to them it SEEMED like everybody else did not either . .
Then that is just not right.
Aina, even if NOBODY had cared about her, was STILL one of the top 5 powerplayers in shadowrun . .
She was an immortal elf and if she was not as powerfull than Har'lea Quinn, she technically was MORE powerfull than him, because SHE had her own AA or tripple A MegaCorp to commandeer after The Nadja vanished . .
And because she, herself, could influence Caimbeul to do what she wanted too . . now FROSTY is the ONLY FRAGGING PERSON who has SOMEWHAT of an influence on him.
And as has been said, he is more powerfull than several adult and some great dragons . . And now somebody went and killed his lover/friend/comrade for literally hundreds, if not thousands of years . .
Go find Lofwyrs nest, show it to him. then show a steamroller driving over the eggs. The outcome would not be much different than this.
Those are things to be considered in such circumstances, even if nobody cares about her. Her death has in universe consequences damn it!
If it was not in the fight against the horrors or because of something she got pulled into because of Harlequin, then he will do what he can and what he wants to find who is responsible this and make them suffer for it.

And Harlequin coming out to 'play' is a cue for most PC-level shadowfolks to either hide in a bunker, skip continents, or get on his good side.

Now there's an idea . . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (12:55:27/08-13-11)
A third Harlequin adventure would rock very, very hard!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (12:58:01/08-13-11)
Quote
Everyone is someone's favorite character.
Everybody but Aquaman. Aquaman can talk to fish.

Otherwise, when freelancers(note the plural here) come out and SAY that they don't care about a character and then SAY that they killed them off because to them it SEEMED like everybody else did not either . .
Then that is just not right.
Aina, even if NOBODY had cared about her, was STILL one of the top 5 powerplayers in shadowrun . .
She was an immortal elf and if she was not as powerfull than Har'lea Quinn, she technically was MORE powerfull than him, because SHE had her own AA or tripple A MegaCorp to commandeer after The Nadja vanished . .
And because she, herself, could influence Caimbeul to do what she wanted too . . now FROSTY is the ONLY FRAGGING PERSON who has SOMEWHAT of an influence on him.
And as has been said, he is more powerfull than several adult and some great dragons . . And now somebody went and killed his lover/friend/comrade for literally hundreds, if not thousands of years . .
Go find Lofwyrs nest, show it to him. then show a steamroller driving over the eggs. The outcome would not be much different than this.
Those are things to be considered in such circumstances, even if nobody cares about her. Her death has in universe consequences damn it!
If it was not in the fight against the horrors or because of something she got pulled into because of Harlequin, then he will do what he can and what he wants to find who is responsible this and make them suffer for it.

And Harlequin coming out to 'play' is a cue for most PC-level shadowfolks to either hide in a bunker, skip continents, or get on his good side.

Now there's an idea . . .
and i have no problem with this!
A third Harlequin adventure would rock very, very hard!
Many deaths would be facilitated by the power of his rock!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (13:02:43/08-13-11)
Yeah, well, if I find out he was in "Hiding" in the 20th century as Neil Young for awhile, I'd be quite upset.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (13:06:36/08-13-11)
Quote
Everyone is someone's favorite character.
Everybody but Aquaman. Aquaman can talk to fish.

Going slightly off topic here, because, well, it's what I've always done best :)

There was a Marvel vs DC series that led up to Amalgam, in which the two companies counterparts fought.  They had to "Pin" their opponent for 3 seconds or whatever to win the fight.  (SOme kind of cosmic game with the fate of the two universes in the balance, or some such).

ANyway, Namor and Aquaman face off, and Namor is being his usual cocky, arrogant self, talking about how much stronger and better he was than Aquaman, noting that the only thing Aquaman did that Namor couldn't do better was talk to fish.  Then a shadow falls over him, and a Blue Whale leaps out of the water and lands on Namor, pinning him for those three seconds, giving Aquaman the win.  Arthur says something like "Yes, I can talk to fish."

Always stuck with me.  :)

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (13:08:33/08-13-11)
*twitch twitch*
i read amalgam.
i still can't believe aquaman "won" against namor <.<;,
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (13:19:53/08-13-11)
Win, then be arrogant.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (13:46:47/08-13-11)
Lengthy post alert.

Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/2860178431/trying-to-kill-storylines-in-ongoing-fiction) (and characters (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/3735421932/life-goes-on-and-on)).

An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.
(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)

It's going to be hard making him give a shit about that character, since I don't in any way shape or form give a shit about her. I will endeavor to manage.

Normally when the word 'Mary Sue' comes up I get pissed, because I think it gets overused to a pretty disgusting degree by people with a much-too-broad definition of what it means. But Aina Dupree, if it's the character I'm thinking of, is one of the worst EVER.
That's sad to read.
First of all, there are people who care about Aina. Our group for example. For ones, we have Aina as major NPC in the campaign.
Yes, Aina was a strange cookie in  an already disfunctional family that immortal elves are. But just because you try to avoid your slightly insane uncle whenever you can doesn't mean you don't love him. Especially not in the way 'since no one cares, she dies. Ha-ha!'
Secondly, Harlequin, Aina's close friend, one time lover, comrade-in-arms and one of the few people on earth (save probably the late Dunkelzahn) who took her seriously, wouldn't care about Aina? Wouldn't care about the death of one of the dozen, at most, human beings in the whole world who are on par with him? He may have had his reservations about her, but he loved her.
And I can understand that her death is part of the yet unpublished story (which must be real big as Aina is [should try using 'was'] second only to Harlequin himself in power), but the attitude towards it baffles me. If she is such unwanted child, why just don't leave her out? The death of the character of the scope Aina was is a big deal, it should serve some purpose other than just to get rid of her and make some big waves. This could as well wake other elves up. As far as I know, immortals have never previously lost one of their own.

To stop grumbling, the book itself is good and pretty. I have some issues with art for the last two chapters and Agent, but other than that art is superb.

Let's see. First off, I apologize for my unprofessional and offhand comment. The mindset that anything I say can and will be taken as representative of the opinions of Catalyst or even the freelancer pool is a hard one for me to get into. I had a lot more leeway with what I could say publicly when I was only coming from fan stance. With that said, my comment about Aina Dupree was most likely unfair and certainly irrelevant. I did not kill the character, nor was I asked about her killing before it happened. Nor, importantly, was her killing the irreverent blue note you may have assumed from James' comments.

Without spoiling anything, I believe that the actual manner of the character's dying within the universe's fiction is extremely respectful, certainly much more so than my offhanded comment, which I honestly did not pause to consider the ramifications of. As for the character's death being offhandedly mentioned in a publication other than the one in which she died, that was indeed a goof up, but not my department.

We need harlekin to go on a city killing spree untill he has found the people responsible for her death and throws them all into the horrors waiting arms.

And that Posting is basically EVERYTHING that's wrong with current writing of shadowrun.
In. One. Single. Posting.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, Stahlseele. I've been following your posting for a long time several places, including the Den. Watching you and Frank and the gang discuss everything, I really never wanted to be part of the problem. : (

All I can say, honestly, is that I do my best to read every critique everywhere it's posted, to sort out the fair from the unfair, and to improve upon what I can improve upon.

Quote
Not a personal criticism.  However I'm afraid your confidence in Lugh is sadly over-rated.  Have a look on Dumpshock for the Fields of Fire campaign.  it was all very silly (or cinematic if you prefer) and never went very far but all the PC's qualified as 'legendary' (1250 karma, which works out as the original base of 750 plus exactly the 500 needed to be legendary) and I'm pretty sure every single one of them would have given Lugh a run for his money and I'm certain that one or two would have wiped the floor with him.

I agree that it is fine for a character like Rigger X to be poorly optimized but it is not okay for legendary icons like Lugh, Hestaby or Lofwyr.  They can have as much fluffy window dressing as you like but at their core they must be capable of handing the PC's their asses if need be.

I took all of the immediate action within my power to correct the Rigger X stats when the errors with them were pointed out. That thread was then locked by powers beyond my control. I will post my unofficial errata up here soon, unless Jason for some reason wants me not to.

As for Lugh Surehand, I do not understand why it is problematic that if he got in a fight with a team of the world's most legendary shadowrunners in the open, he might lose. Although for the record, I contest it. If you would ever like to have some kind of an exhibition, Surehand vs. six 1250 Karma Shadowrunners, let's do it. Heck, I'd be happy to GM a Shadowrun with the objective of killing him to see how your superteam fares. I think it may be less well than you think. In any case, even if I were wrong, I think it would be fun, right?

Quote
The same is true in the 22+ year metaplot we've got here at Shadowrun, and we're aware of it.  So while here just in casual conversation on the internet we might seem flippant or light-hearted about a casual death, please know that we're not.  The book was delayed because writers are taking their time and getting it right.

This, this, this, 1,000 times this. Also please, now and forever understand that as long as I remain a non-employee freelancer, my words should not be taken as representative of the point of view of Catalyst or of any of the other writers. Honestly, this being the internet, sometimes they're not even representative of my own innermost beliefs. Sometimes I'm just saying shit on the internet...and I will have to adjust to the fact that just saying shit on the internet is something I no longer have the freedom to do. : )

Quote
Otherwise, when freelancers(note the plural here) come out and SAY that they don't care about a character and then SAY that they killed them off because to them it SEEMED like everybody else did not either . .
Then that is just not right.
Aina, even if NOBODY had cared about her, was STILL one of the top 5 powerplayers in shadowrun . .
She was an immortal elf and if she was not as powerfull than Har'lea Quinn, she technically was MORE powerfull than him, because SHE had her own AA or tripple A MegaCorp to commandeer after The Nadja vanished . .
And because she, herself, could influence Caimbeul to do what she wanted too . . now FROSTY is the ONLY FRAGGING PERSON who has SOMEWHAT of an influence on him.
And as has been said, he is more powerfull than several adult and some great dragons . . And now somebody went and killed his lover/friend/comrade for literally hundreds, if not thousands of years . .
Go find Lofwyrs nest, show it to him. then show a steamroller driving over the eggs. The outcome would not be much different than this.
Those are things to be considered in such circumstances, even if nobody cares about her. Her death has in universe consequences damn it!
If it was not in the fight against the horrors or because of something she got pulled into because of Harlequin, then he will do what he can and what he wants to find who is responsible this and make them suffer for it.

I think you make some excellent points, and I will keep all of this in mind in my future writing.

Quote
A third Harlequin adventure would rock very, very hard!

You don't say...I happen to agree with you on that.

Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (13:56:20/08-13-11)
Let's see. First off, I apologize for my unprofessional and offhand comment. The mindset that anything I say can and will be taken as representative of the opinions of Catalyst or even the freelancer pool is a hard one for me to get into. I had a lot more leeway with what I could say publicly when I was only coming from fan stance. With that said, my comment about Aina Dupree was most likely unfair and certainly irrelevant. I did not kill the character, nor was I asked about her killing before it happened. Nor, importantly, was her killing the irreverent blue note you may have assumed from James' comments.

Without spoiling anything, I believe that the actual manner of the character's dying within the universe's fiction is extremely respectful, certainly much more so than my offhanded comment, which I honestly did not pause to consider the ramifications of. As for the character's death being offhandedly mentioned in a publication other than the one in which she died, that was indeed a goof up, but not my department.

We need harlekin to go on a city killing spree untill he has found the people responsible for her death and throws them all into the horrors waiting arms.

And that Posting is basically EVERYTHING that's wrong with current writing of shadowrun.
In. One. Single. Posting.

I'm sorry that you feel that way, Stahlseele. I've been following your posting for a long time several places, including the Den. Watching you and Frank and the gang discuss everything, I really never wanted to be part of the problem. : (

All I can say, honestly, is that I do my best to read every critique everywhere it's posted, to sort out the fair from the unfair, and to improve upon what I can improve upon.
Quote
Otherwise, when freelancers(note the plural here) come out and SAY that they don't care about a character and then SAY that they killed them off because to them it SEEMED like everybody else did not either . .
Then that is just not right.
Aina, even if NOBODY had cared about her, was STILL one of the top 5 powerplayers in shadowrun . .
She was an immortal elf and if she was not as powerfull than Har'lea Quinn, she technically was MORE powerfull than him, because SHE had her own AA or tripple A MegaCorp to commandeer after The Nadja vanished . .
And because she, herself, could influence Caimbeul to do what she wanted too . . now FROSTY is the ONLY FRAGGING PERSON who has SOMEWHAT of an influence on him.
And as has been said, he is more powerfull than several adult and some great dragons . . And now somebody went and killed his lover/friend/comrade for literally hundreds, if not thousands of years . .
Go find Lofwyrs nest, show it to him. then show a steamroller driving over the eggs. The outcome would not be much different than this.
Those are things to be considered in such circumstances, even if nobody cares about her. Her death has in universe consequences damn it!
If it was not in the fight against the horrors or because of something she got pulled into because of Harlequin, then he will do what he can and what he wants to find who is responsible this and make them suffer for it.

I think you make some excellent points, and I will keep all of this in mind in my future writing.

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A third Harlequin adventure would rock very, very hard!

You don't say...I happen to agree with you on that.
Apology accepted, it was mostly the tone of the posting that set me off . .  sorry for flying off my handle (is that correct? <.<) like that . .
And yes, i forget about the personal opinion/writer stuff difference from time to time . . mea culpa x.x
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Smirnov on (14:07:29/08-13-11)
Let's see. First off, I apologize for my unprofessional and offhand comment. The mindset that anything I say can and will be taken as representative of the opinions of Catalyst or even the freelancer pool is a hard one for me to get into. I had a lot more leeway with what I could say publicly when I was only coming from fan stance. With that said, my comment about Aina Dupree was most likely unfair and certainly irrelevant. I did not kill the character, nor was I asked about her killing before it happened. Nor, importantly, was her killing the irreverent blue note you may have assumed from James' comments.

Without spoiling anything, I believe that the actual manner of the character's dying within the universe's fiction is extremely respectful, certainly much more so than my offhanded comment, which I honestly did not pause to consider the ramifications of. As for the character's death being offhandedly mentioned in a publication other than the one in which she died, that was indeed a goof up, but not my department.
None offence taken. And I apologise if my post seemed rude, that was the last thing I wanted. And I probably overreacted a bit - I was taken aback by the tone of the comments about Aina, so much that I even cared to register on forums :)
Glad that we understand each other!

And I really look forward to the book, now even more. Is there any approximate date for  the book?


As for Lugh Surehand, I do not understand why it is problematic that if he got in a fight with a team of the world's most legendary shadowrunners in the open, he might lose. Although for the record, I contest it. If you would ever like to have some kind of an exhibition, Surehand vs. six 1250 Karma Shadowrunners, let's do it. Heck, I'd be happy to GM a Shadowrun with the objective of killing him to see how your superteam fares. I think it may be less well than you think. In any case, even if I were wrong, I think it would be fun, right?
I would love to join that game, given the opportunity.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: WARRGARRRBL!!!1! on (16:39:07/08-13-11)

As for Lugh Surehand, I do not understand why it is problematic that if he got in a fight with a team of the world's most legendary shadowrunners in the open, he might lose. Although for the record, I contest it. If you would ever like to have some kind of an exhibition, Surehand vs. six 1250 Karma Shadowrunners, let's do it. Heck, I'd be happy to GM a Shadowrun with the objective of killing him to see how your superteam fares. I think it may be less well than you think. In any case, even if I were wrong, I think it would be fun, right?

My point is that this is the sort of playtest that ought to have been done in advance of publication.

Don't get me wrong, I too would love to play in a game like that again.

Comparing my mage in that game and Lugh on major dicepools is crude but gives an idea of relative power. 

Pool  AbaddonLugh
Spellcasting  38(40)26
Counterspelling  39(41)26(36/36)
Drain 3931
Summon/Bind 26(28)/26(28)26/26

That's enough of a discrepancy to reliably win a one on one contest.  Abaddon's specializations are in Combat spells so he's only got a four dice advantage but at Force 16 that'll get you killed right quick.  Actually with Powerbolt he's got an eight dice advantage.

They are about even in summoning capability but at Force 12, using the cinematic rules, Lugh is taking a much bigger risk of being turned inside out.

Thing is it wouldn't take much to tweak Lugh to make him dominate that contest as Abaddon only has about half of the following.

1.  A decent Power Focus.

2.  A decent Shielding Focus instead of the silly Counterspelling Foci.  Or better yet, as well as the Counterspelling Foci.

3.  A decent Centering Focus.

4.   A decent Ally, for the love of God.

At Force 12 that would be an extra 20 Dice to all of Lugh's pools.

We did do another experiment on DS regarding low-end Fourth World survivors.  It never made it past sample characters that were only semi-complete.  The point was to demonstrate the capabilities for folks that were in Lugh's weight class but not as good as Harlequin or any of the Great Dragons.  The build target was 5000 karma and fairly relaxed build rules but retaining skill/stat caps.

Dice pools there were in the 70-120 range.

That was for Initiates with Grades ranging from 25 to 30.  That's in the same range as Hestaby/Lofwyr so maybe 5000 is a bit high for the sort of characters we were aiming for.  Regardless said characters would have Lofwyr's head mounted on the wall.  I reckon a properly built mortal of about Grade 12 would be a match for Hestaby.  I'd say 2500 karma or thereabouts.

Either that or the two GD's need to be substantially upgraded....

Things in many of the recent publications are sloppy or demonstrate a poor understanding of the rules.  Itztli's Physical Barrier, I'm looking at you...

It makes me cry inside.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (17:11:06/08-13-11)
Warrgarrbl, this is interesting. Let's talk about it via PM. : )

I'll shoot you one in a little bit.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Ancient History on (18:34:55/08-13-11)
I don't know if this will help or hurt, but I think I can put a bit of perspective on the situation surrounding Aina's death.

From the very beginning of what would become the Artifact storyline, there was written in the assumption that one of the immortal elves would die - in the beginning, it was Harlequin. Later discussion suggested Ehran the Scribe. When Jennifer Harding, Stephen McQuillian and I were writing Harlequin's Back, I slipped in a chance for the player characters to shoot Alachia in the face. For money. So the idea that an IE might pass in the storyline was always there, from the very beginning.

The freelancers argued about it. Some of us gnashed our teeth. Called it bloody stupid, pointed out why it couldn't happen, how disrespectful it was to the character to go out like that - and this, before it was even written. Others shrugged their shoulders. Because like regular fans, freelancers have their own things about the game and the metaplot that they like and don't like. What they like, they write about. What they don't like, or want to change, they may try to change.

The death of a major character is a staple trope - and it's nothing new to Shadowrun. People still talk about Captain Chaos, maybe more after he died in game than they did when he was alive in text. The fact that certain characters appear "unkillable" means nothing. In twenty-odd years of game history, the game has seen the passing, sometimes on-screen, sometimes off-screen, of several great dragons and god-like artificial intelligences. And such deaths are important, and do have great impact on the game world - the death of Dunkelzahn provided material for an entire sourcebook, a bad trilogy of novels, a Tom Dowd short story, and a bunch of adventures, plus dozens of references across many, many books.

I've generally ignored James over the years, but I can tell you that we don't see eye-to-eye on...well, probably anything with regards to Shadowrun. Be that as it may, I respect killing Aina as a valid choice on the part of a freelancer - a choice that was presumably read and given the green light by the lead developer, and whatever other freelancers that might have proofed the draft. The fact that it was revealed in this way is unfortunate, but beyond the control of the freelancers. James' attitude...well, we have our differences of opinion. 'nuff said.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (18:55:14/08-13-11)
Thanks for shedding some more light on this aunty.
As for Alachia? Hell, i'd PAY to see HER killed off . . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (19:35:09/08-13-11)
Hell, we'd all pay to see an IE killed off.

Not like it happens every day or anything.  :P

EDIT:  Thanks for the heads up, AH.  Sorry things didn't work well with you.  :(  Glad to see you're still around at least!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: WARRGARRRBL!!!1! on (00:36:25/08-14-11)


EDIT:  Thanks for the heads up, AH.  Sorry things didn't work well with you.  :(  Glad to see you're still around at least!

Having read the short fiction Bobby writes I'm beginning to suspect Catalyst did the rest of us a favour.  Shot themselves in the foot spectacularly but gave him the chance to really spread his wings and become something he never would have become if he'd remained trapped in their tiny pond.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (01:05:33/08-14-11)
I wish him the best in the future, and hope he keeps us updated on what's going on.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: The Big Peat on (03:53:36/08-14-11)
To talk about the book...

Disclaimer: I'm not a great expert on SR metaplot, to say the least. Nor am I likely to ever be.

So I daresee there's all sort of hidden details in the stories I didn't pick up on. I read up to Thorn's one finding them fairly interesting then they didn't grab me after that. The Six Times I Died... yeah. Maybe I'm being unfair, as weeklong insomnia and night shifts will do bad things to a man's patience, but didn't do it for me.

Its a very lopsided selection. Lots of awakened, not many technos. Lots of elves, not many dwarves/trolls/orks. A lot more men than women too. Call me shameless, but eye candy never goes amiss. But, basically, it all felt samey when browsing through.

While I like the character of Thorn in some ways, I buried my head in my hands when I saw the Irish Patriot With A Gun wearing the turtleneck. I guess we've all done the stereotypes, but... eh, well. Winterhawk struck me as overly British too, but then I like that about him in some ways. My local biases show.

Anyways, I generally approve of this book, as it made me want to play. Admittedly... it made me want to use PCs riffing off the ideas, rather than the NPCs per se, but it still wanted me want to play. It gives me ideas. Just that next time I'd like a more diverse set of ideas, assuming there is a next time.

I'd also be interested in seeing how several of these big bad wolves would have looked at just entering the big league 400bp people, back in the day before they got famous... but thats another story.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (12:13:12/08-14-11)
I shouldn't even be here, but I am going to bang my head against the wall and ask anyway. Has anyone read the non-dossier stories?
Okay, just finished the rest of the book. And can I just say WTF is Damien Knight even THINKING??

I find myself enjoying comments like that. May I take it as a compliment? @=)

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Of course, this all fits in perfectly with my home campaign now... ;)

Really??? Fantastic!! I love making people's home campaigns fun.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (14:04:43/08-14-11)
Amazing last short story, our GM introduced somthing very similiar to these new "bio ware" enhancements ( he used symbiants) that when he showed the changes I was going shit, shit, not good, shit while reading it. Well written and look forward to anything you add in future SR work Catadmin.

Overall I am extremly happy with the product,

Cons: I have said it once, will say it again SR crew missed an amazing opportunity of giving us different racial mix with this book. I know why it was done and respect it, but I still wish there were trolls and dwarves at the least.

I feel that there could have been one or two Street Sam's in tue book. The three shooters seemed more like merc and shooter specialists. It would have been nice to see an Argent or Ghost style street Sam.

Some stats did not survive layout it looks like, but this is not really all thy bad because we have allot of freelancers support.

That is really all my cons.... Not much really.



Pros: the short stories rocked.

Stats were written in away that if I needed to enhance stronger PC like lugh I had a great base line to start from.

PC bios were all well written, interesting and provided me with new insight to the world, especially life as a fixer/mr Johnson.

In having active and knowledge skill written out I got to see how NPC that are considered professional and above have there dice pools and skill sets. I love making strong combat PC's but I also do not want to make one demensional PC, having this comparison allows me to balance out my PC with my limited play experience.

Overall I see this product as a work of love by it's writers, and if we have seen a couple responses on this board that points the truth to this. Though some people have there grips about certain aspects of the book I find myself already turning back to it's stories and entries for enjoyment even though it is still a new book. So for those writers out there I want to say thanks, this is somthing that will never grow old for me (like my realms hall of hero's book has for
about 15+ years).


(side note: my replys may be overly positive, I tend to desire this in my life. I am a medically  retired Army SGT and tend to avoid negative thinking as much as possible. Thank you for understanding)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (15:12:06/08-14-11)
Amazing last short story, our GM introduced somthing very similiar to these new "bio ware" enhancements ( he used symbiants) that when he showed the changes I was going shit, shit, not good, shit while reading it. Well written and look forward to anything you add in future SR work Catadmin.

Thank you. That's the best review I've had of any of my writing, including SR and non-SR stuff.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (17:35:50/08-14-11)
(side note: my replys may be overly positive, I tend to desire this in my life. I am a medically  retired Army SGT and tend to avoid negative thinking as much as possible. Thank you for understanding)
No one should ever feel like they have to apologize for being too positive.  Ideally, no one should feel like they have to apologize for any sort of rational, thought-out, product review, but the atmosphere of a forum or thread should especially never make someone nervous to be too positive.

Your input is appreciated, Frankie, at least on my end it surely is.  I'm glad you enjoyed Street Legends, and I wish you many more hours of reading and appreciating it.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (18:48:57/08-14-11)
(side note: my replys may be overly positive, I tend to desire this in my life. I am a medically  retired Army SGT and tend to avoid negative thinking as much as possible. Thank you for understanding)
No one should ever feel like they have to apologize for being too positive.  Ideally, no one should feel like they have to apologize for any sort of rational, thought-out, product review, but the atmosphere of a forum or thread should especially never make someone nervous to be too positive.

Your input is appreciated, Frankie, at least on my end it surely is.  I'm glad you enjoyed Street Legends, and I wish you many more hours of reading and appreciated it.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (18:59:44/08-14-11)
Your input is appreciated, Frankie, at least on my end it surely is.  I'm glad you enjoyed Street Legends, and I wish you many more hours of reading and appreciated it.
What he said.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: raben-aas on (05:00:44/08-15-11)
Hell, we'd all pay to see an IE killed off.

I'd even pay to see them ALL be killed off.  :)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Charybdis on (05:21:25/08-15-11)
Hell, we'd all pay to see an IE killed off.

I'd even pay to see them ALL be killed off.  :)
I'd pay more money to BE one....
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (05:24:49/08-15-11)
Hell, we'd all pay to see an IE killed off.

I'd even pay to see them ALL be killed off.  :)
Fry-Face
Not sure if Troll . .
Or just Humanis..

*runs like hell*
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: KarmaInferno on (21:53:04/08-15-11)
*twitch twitch*
i read amalgam.
i still can't believe aquaman "won" against namor <.<;,
King of the Seas, remember? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuFjWNMrc4)




-k
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (21:56:42/08-15-11)
Don't make Aquaman slap a slitch!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Chrona on (23:31:28/08-15-11)
Don't make Aquaman slap a slitch!


"Outrageous!" (http://youtu.be/sQ5h0fegXiQ?t=5s)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (09:24:36/08-16-11)
Don't make me slip Namor and Aquaman jokes into SR. Just don't.

It would be BAD...

@=)

EDIT: FYI, I  liked amalgam.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (09:53:15/08-16-11)
Namor is an Asshole.
But at least, he's honest about that.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (10:33:39/08-16-11)
So...  Spider-Man in the next Street Legends book?  ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (11:12:13/08-16-11)
So...  Spider-Man in the next Street Legends book?  ;D
As soon as they make the spinnerette glands worth it . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (13:38:38/08-16-11)
You laugh, CanRay, but I worked up Spider-Man as an Adept (A Totemic Adept, following Spider) back in Second Edition :)

Besides, you heard Fastjack.  Bull *is* the Spider-Man of the 2070's :)

He just doesn't wear Spandex.  FJ does.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Stahlseele on (13:43:13/08-16-11)
Dude . . Spandex is a PRIVILEGE . . NOT a right!

Also: There are Sailor Moon magical Traditions out there . .
Spierman is TAME compared to that . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (13:45:27/08-16-11)
You laugh, CanRay, but I worked up Spider-Man as an Adept (A Totemic Adept, following Spider) back in Second Edition :)

Besides, you heard Fastjack.  Bull *is* the Spider-Man of the 2070's :)

He just doesn't wear Spandex.  FJ does.
Spandex can be very comfortable and flattering.

Oh wait, you're talking about the "real" FJ. :-[
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (22:43:20/08-16-11)
So...  Spider-Man in the next Street Legends book?  ;D

We already had him. Or didn't you read Bull's entry? @=)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (22:54:20/08-16-11)
Bull in a Spider-Man Costume for Halloween in the next Street Legends?  :p
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (23:07:52/08-16-11)
Hmmm...  No. :)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mason on (16:16:07/09-22-11)
Is Kellan Colt in any older sourcebooks? Or the novels, none of which i have read yet? I felt a good portion of story was missing there. I know nothing about her save what Street legends said.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (16:23:03/09-22-11)
Is Kellan Colt in any older sourcebooks? Or the novels, none of which i have read yet? I felt a good portion of story was missing there. I know nothing about her save what Street legends said.
She was in three rather poor novels that was part of the HeroClix-like line.  Not really sure how else to describe the toys that were sold.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mason on (16:24:01/09-22-11)
He died, the Suits got him, and brought him back to life.

They had the technology, the thaumaturgy, and the complete lack of morals to turn him into something that was more machine than man, twisted and evil.

Hatchetman became a CYBERZOMBIE!!!???!!!??? >_< WHAAAAAAAAT!!!???
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mason on (16:29:33/09-22-11)
IMPROVED ABILITY IS CAPPED AT 3!!!!!!!

If you don't know that you've got absolutely no business being employed in a professional capacity on a project like this.  And I'm not just talking about the primary author.  That howler has passed in front of at least a dozen pairs of eyes who all ought to have that sort of knowledge as a pre-requisite of acquiring the job that they have.

No, it does not. It caps at a Rating equal to magic. It is no longer USEFUL after 3 generally speaking because skills are subject to the augmented skill maximum. So, know YOUR rules and don't insult people for no good reason.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (16:36:51/09-22-11)
He died, the Suits got him, and brought him back to life.

They had the technology, the thaumaturgy, and the complete lack of morals to turn him into something that was more machine than man, twisted and evil.
Hatchetman became a CYBERZOMBIE!!!???!!!??? >_< WHAAAAAAAAT!!!???
Yep, long and ever ago.  I cried manly tears.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (17:54:53/09-22-11)
GAH! I barely care about most of my PCs.


I think I should have explained Nadja's powers better in that she's not been an adept for long (relatively speaking). Otherwise she'd have Thorn beat by a couple of grades (Thorn's original grades).
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on (20:14:28/09-22-11)
I do not credit insulting anyone; yet for how the rules on skills work: nothing can enhance the skill rating higher than 1.5 the max rating. For Nadia she can have the highest modified Negotiations of 10 and Intimidation of 9. This takes into account the quality Aptitude for negotiations. Regardless of what the power is rated at she will only get the bonus to the skill up to those numbers. Can she have a higher rating...yeah, there is nothing forbidding it.

But it seems to be ill use of the power points. But to be fair, I was the co-GM and took a PC to one of the games that had one rating higher improved ATT power then he could have had (magic limited at 2 for start of this game). Sense I helped come up with PC creation rules for our group for this game (LA street level) I felt really stupid when someone noticed it.....a new player on top of it lol. So mistakes happen. I for one feel that any product that has loads of PC/NPC stats will have some errors....it goes for most games I have collected for (D&D, Earthdawn, green ronin Game of Thrones).

Bottom line for me, this product and every other product I have bought have been worth the price point. I have said it before, I have someone playing in our group from Bogota and he loves the materials presented in WAR and we have used what we liked in our games. Does this mean that everything including spelling and grammar errors is cool, not really? But we have made do with a large sections of the book and ran with it just fine.

 If you feel that something should be spotless then please present such feelings in a civil manner. And better yet post what you see as corrections or a better Stat line for everyone to see.....enhance the community of shadowrun.  Thanks for your time…..jumping off soap box into viper pit now!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Wolfboy on (18:09:20/09-27-11)
I have to agree with FJ about the final non dossier story, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Mr. Knight? I mean, sure this is gonna mean a slew of new Ares/KE jobs, as other corps going after them, not to mention that the big guy in Denver is going to pick RSO's brain apart about it, (probably literally).  which is going to mean at least a couple missions from him, but gods, talk about arrogant.

as to the book, loved it. I havent had enough time to go through all the bio's and backgrounds, but i did read all the "extra" sourcebook fiction and loved it to death. Having worked online with "hawk" back in the old Shadowrun Writers Forums I have to say that his Bio hit me as the most accurate, but then again i would expect it to since it would have had his input.

Personally i think we need a thread, probably up in the "Underworld 93" section that allows up to post our own shadowtalk to all the dossiers and other sourcebooks, but thats just my thoughts on that.

Aina, well i liked the character and will miss her, but i can't wait for more novels. not to mention another set of HQ missions.

This is Wolfboy AKA Rajvik Donna, Signing off
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (19:16:23/09-27-11)
Personally i think we need a thread, probably up in the "Underworld 93" section that allows up to post our own shadowtalk to all the dossiers and other sourcebooks, but thats just my thoughts on that.
That, my boy, is a most intriguing idea...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (22:22:57/09-27-11)
Personally i think we need a thread, probably up in the "Underworld 93" section that allows up to post our own shadowtalk to all the dossiers and other sourcebooks, but thats just my thoughts on that.
That, my boy, is a most intriguing idea...

Not a bad idea.  We'll kick things off with Street Legends then.

Be sure to read the posting rules, and have fun! :)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (23:52:31/09-27-11)
Glad you liked the fic, Wolf.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mason on (12:13:41/09-28-11)
Personally i think we need a thread, probably up in the "Underworld 93" section that allows up to post our own shadowtalk to all the dossiers and other sourcebooks, but thats just my thoughts on that.

Gret idea! I already write shadowtalk with some of my characters (After they gain enough rep to be considered by the group to have been invited, usually), why not have everyone do it? ^_^
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (12:19:14/09-28-11)
Considering the number of characters I made for Shadowtalk from when I was doing news reports from ShadowSEA that my group got...  *Sighs*  That I don't think they ever read...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (12:58:15/09-28-11)
Considering the number of characters I made for Shadowtalk from when I was doing news reports from ShadowSEA that my group got...  *Sighs*  That I don't think they ever read...
Well, we'd definitely read them here. ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (13:32:45/09-28-11)
Glad you liked the fic, Wolf.

I'll second that. I really loved working on I Am Legion just to show off a day in the life of a fixer who cuts across strata from political to street fixing, though the best example of that is in Loose Ends.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (15:39:14/09-30-11)
Glad you liked the fic, Wolf.

Ditto on this. Thank you for posting your review, too.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (17:20:38/09-30-11)
I can't recall if I mentioned it before, but I seriously considered making references to Nadja Daviar's sex appeal and certain features in her writeup. However, good taste and better judgement stopped me (wordcount helped, too). However, I did put this in
Quote
Her return has caused a spike, and the increases in production and distribution of professional and fan-made creative products has created a collateral spike ranging from lawsuits to outright shadow activities between producers. (152)
so that between that tidbit and the existence of the Nadja doppelgangers one could plug their own material into it if they really felt compelled to say, have the PCs insert genetic faults into the biosculpting process between two competing bodymod shops so that something brown turns ... NOT brown. Or whatever.

Gah. That's icky, but that fucking reference will outlive us all and if I can't kill it I want to ruin it.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: JM_Hardy on (17:25:14/09-30-11)
I can't recall if I mentioned it before, but I seriously considered making references to Nadja Daviar's sex appeal and certain features in her writeup. However, good taste and better judgement stopped me (wordcount helped, too).

If good taste and better judgment hadn't stopped you, then your editor would have.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (17:52:22/09-30-11)
You say that now. I am very persuasive.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (18:38:31/09-30-11)
You have sex appeal and certain features?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (18:53:31/09-30-11)
You have sex appeal and certain features?
Yes, No (No one should see that), and my persuasion skills generally can be described as the Dalton method. I'm nice until it's time not to be nice. Then I fight to kill. Pretty much SOP for lawyers.


I literally spoke the words "I am always right" as I walked into the room for the freelancer summit at GenCon. So confidence helps a lot.


Silence works amazingly well in-person, but not when the target, er ... partner is 1,000 miles away. Seriously, try it. Argument. Haggling. Just be silent and present and see what happens. It unnerves people and knocks them off-balance, but it requires patience.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Phylos Fett on (19:03:24/09-30-11)
Silence works amazingly well in-person, but not when the target, er ... partner is 1,000 miles away. Seriously, try it. Argument. Haggling. Just be silent and present and see what happens. It unnerves people and knocks them off-balance, but it requires patience.

Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (19:07:55/09-30-11)
Silence works amazingly well in-person, but not when the target, er ... partner is 1,000 miles away. Seriously, try it. Argument. Haggling. Just be silent and present and see what happens. It unnerves people and knocks them off-balance, but it requires patience.
Um, can anyone on this forum (Or The Other Forum) even believe for a second that I can keep quiet for a moment?

...

Didn't think so.

Oh, I can do it.  It's just not a pretty sight or a good sign.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (11:19:34/10-01-11)
You say that now. I am very persuasive.
You're not that persuasive.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (18:31:00/10-05-11)
Silence works amazingly well in-person, but not when the target, er ... partner is 1,000 miles away.

Wait. James can be silent? Wow. Who knew?

(hey, any runners out there willing to protect me until he forgets I said that? I pay in good chocolate. @=)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: All4BigGuns on (02:48:58/10-06-11)
Is Kellan Colt in any older sourcebooks? Or the novels, none of which i have read yet? I felt a good portion of story was missing there. I know nothing about her save what Street legends said.
She was in three rather poor novels that was part of the HeroClix-like line.  Not really sure how else to describe the toys that were sold.

I rather enjoyed that novel trilogy personally, and seeing that character's stats is one reason I really like Street Legends.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: bigity on (09:24:24/10-06-11)
If those things had been minis and not dolls, I might have been interested, bad novels or no ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (11:25:22/10-06-11)
I was about to have a knee-jerk reaction and go "Action Figures!".

But they didn't have any action at all, so, yeah, dolls.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (13:36:21/10-06-11)
I was about to have a knee-jerk reaction and go "Action Figures!".

But they didn't have any action at all, so, yeah, dolls.

A few were pretty posable, especially compared with the travesties that are McFarlene toys.  But for the most part, you're right.

The SR Clix line was an ambitious experiment, but sadly it just didn't work.  The game itself wasn't terrible, but the scale was way too big to be practicle.  I still say that the same game retooled for 3 3/4" toys (GI Joe/Star Wars Scale) would have been magnificent.  Plus then you could have used GI Joe weapons and vehicles with teh figures.  Could you imagine the possibilities??

(That's still a dream game of mine, to be honest)

As for the novels, I thought they were pretty solid.  Hell, they're works of art compared to earlier SR Books like Shadowboxer or pretty much anything by Lisa Smedman.  But, they had three things going against them...

1)  A forced cast list tied to the Clix line

Not a huge detriment, IMO, and I worked on some SR Clix fiction for the WizKids website.  The characters actually had a cool backstory and almost all of them had a cool web of backstory ties to the other characters.  But I think that it made the novels feel a little stifled, and combine that with the general distaste people had for the Clix game itself, and it ended upa  negative.

2)  They were not novels aimed at long time Shadowrun players

I think this effects the books a lot more than most folks realize.  Wizkids put a LOT of effort and time into the SR Clix line, and the novels were there to support it.  The hope was that the Clix game would be as popular as Mage Knight and Mechwarrior had been, and that it would draw in a lot of players who previously never played Shadowrun (Which happened in a big way with Mechwarrior).  So the novels were written and targetted at folks who had never played Shadowrun, never heard of Shadowrun outside of the Clix line, and who might be a younger crowd, so the Novels, especially the first one, felt more like "Young Adult" fiction.

3)  Players had high expectations

This I think is the biggest one...  Like the Star Wars prequals, Shadowrun fans had been clamoring for new novels for several years at taht point.  Expectations were high, probably too high.  I honestly think that any author would have gotten picked apart, especially when you combine points 1 & 2 with it.  Zombie Nigel Findley could have written this, and I think people would be talking about how becoming a zombie made him lose his writing ability.

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (13:50:48/10-06-11)
I'm right there with the sort of "young adult" feel (or at least comparison).  There wasn't much that was appealing about the main protagonist to me, or that made it easy or fun for me to try and empathize with her. 

The target audience for most Shadowrun material isn't exactly "teenage girls," and yet Kellan Colt was the character they gave us to try to put ourselves in the shoes of;  on a purely visceral level that's often going to be awkward for most gamers, but to make matters worse she wasn't even an awesome teenage girl.  She was new to Seattle, not that great a shadowrunner, didn't really excel at anything, perpetually felt in over her head, and made some really stupid decisions along the way.  Rookie shadowrunner plus not exceptionally likeable plus young girl from the Midwest?  That doesn't really all add up to "awesome shadowrunner fantasy," which is what most folks expect when they open up an SR novel (and I'm shallow and/or realistic and/or cynical enough to admit that's what most fans are after, at least in my experience).

As it was, the only thing I have in common with Kellan is my man-crush on members of the Ancients.  And that alone just isn't enough to make up for the other issues (which I also agree with) you brought up concerning that trilogy.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (16:32:14/10-06-11)
Agreed, to a degree, Crit.  But like I said, the novel wasn't aimed at Shadowrun players.  A lot of folks who played Mage Knight and Mechwarrior were mini's wargamers, and that was the audience they hoped to spread to.  For taht reason, I believe, they choose a protagonist who a non-RPGer could possibly relate to.  Someone who knew NOTHING about Shadowrun, and was just an average, every day person.  This let them do a lot of plot exposition and explaining of the world directly to the protagonist (and the reader).

Like I said, the books were decent, but not great.  Steve's done much better work, IMO.  But for what they were, they served their purpose.

(I will admit, I never got around to reading the 3rd novel.  A lot of my SR books got damaged in a flood, including my regular copies of Books 1 & 2, and for whatever reason I just never got book 3.  I need to pick those up again at some point and reread them.  If nothing else, I really like Lothan and G-Dogg, and want to bring at least G-Dogg into Missions one of these days).

As for Kellen, yeah, she always felt a little flat to me.  As I mentioned at gen Con though, I like her write up in Street Legends quite a lot, and think she could be a really fun addition to the Artifact Race plot going on in Missions.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (16:54:33/10-06-11)
Honest discussion, and not one joke about my crush on the Ancients?  Bull, you're slippin'.   ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (16:55:54/10-06-11)
Well, she did horribly maim that ex-Ancient boitoi of hers...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (17:09:25/10-06-11)
Honest discussion, and not one joke about my crush on the Ancients?  Bull, you're slippin'.   ;)

Dude, way too easy :)

<grin>

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: bigity on (21:58:33/10-06-11)
For wanting to emulate the success of the Mage Knight/Clix stuff, they sure went way to large.  Literally.

A remake of the DMZ game with minis would have work way better.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Bull on (01:23:35/10-07-11)
For wanting to emulate the success of the Mage Knight/Clix stuff, they sure went way to large.  Literally.

A remake of the DMZ game with minis would have work way better.

Agreed.  But the thought was (I think) that SR Action Figures would be cool.  Which they were.  But they were too pricey for just toys (Plus the articulation on some of them sucked), and they were too big for a mini's game.  Like I said, GI Joe/Star Wars scale would have been near perfect, and you could have gone with a squad-based tactical mini's game.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Phylos Fett on (02:53:19/10-07-11)
I still have some of the Shadowrun Duels stuff still in their original packaging somewhere - one of the local gaming shops had a close-out/clearance on them, which was cheaper than 2 for the price of 1, so I picked up two of everything they had in stock, and never found anyone that was interested in playing, so I never opened them.  :(

I have to agree that the 3 3/4" scale would have been better for gaming/action figures, though...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (11:03:54/10-07-11)
Oooops. Arriving late for this party. Sorry. First time around, I think I avoided a lot in here just because of the vitriol that was flowing. Now I'm looking for reactions to my contribution.

But for the love of God, Dawkins or whatever you call out to whenever you just can't take any more of the lunacy, could you at least have legendary, iconic NPC's designed by someone that knows the frakking rules.
Left out most of your rant. Still avoiding the vitriol where I can.

Did I do all right, in your estimation, on my stat block for Martin de Vries?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (11:06:52/10-07-11)
More old shit that I'm just now getting to....

RE Ares, it's nice to see that this old storyline is apparently picking up steam. We're certainly in for a big shakeup if Ares' bug dealings ever come to a head...although I must admit that I'm wary of how  well CGL would handle such a major event, given their current problems even with some bread-and-butter stuff...
Can you give me some specifics on this kind of thing? What problems, etc., you see? You can PM me if you prefer. It's just that I'm working on a couple of potentially big things, and I'd like to know if people think I'm the weak link.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Nath on (16:03:54/10-19-11)
Finally read Street Legends.

I knew from the start I wasn't going to love that one. As a gamemaster, I don't need new shadowrunner characters. The basis of the game is that players' characters are the shadowrunners. Most of the time, when they encounter other runner, they''ll have opposite objectives and it's going turn into a fight. In such case, I don't see the point in knowing how their career started and how baddass they are, and it will end up with either the NPC stats being too high from my PC, or their legendary status proven unmerited. At least, my PC earned their karma and raised their stats the hard way. Also, my impression as that the authors did not envisioned at all their characters as opponents, except maybe for a small numbers of them (Haze, Shamandar, Puck...). Most sound like they're the cool guy on the good side.
Fixers could have been more interesting to me, but, halas, a lot of them are first and foremost described through their early career as shadowrunners. It tells us how they behave, or behaved, in the field, not how they work as fixers (something the short story I Am Legion does, though I'm still a bit unsure on how convenient it really is to look like one of the most famous person in the world).

The big names, like Lofwyr, Hestaby, Villiers, along with the less-known or new ones, use the "street legends" theme as an excuse to advance plots. Lot of interesting things going on here : Lofwyr and Hestaby at war, Aina Dupré dead and Nadja Daviar back... Jonathan Blake may become the next Seattle governor or president of the UCAS, and introducing the character ahead of time will make it a lot better.

Now, my usual row of specific comments ;)

- Is Frosty a Lugh Surehand fangirl ? Save for Tir Tairngire black ops team habit of showing up in whatever shadowrunners are involved into, Shadowrun background never gave me the impression of Tir Tairngire head of state being anything close to "one of the most powerful, influential, and important leaders of the modern world."

- Lofwyr must have ordered the assassination of Hestaby sidekick because the hit-man used a "german-made sniper rifle"? Seriously? I mean, Walther MA-2100 and HK PSG Enforcer are standard issue sniper rifles in SR4. Had he been carrying an Ares Predator, it would prove Damien Knight sided with Lofwyr?
If you asked me, I would retcon it into "a custom-made sniper rifle, a signature work of German armorer Dietrich Färber (or whatever name), known to work with S-K Prime services" (but maybe that was actually what the author had in mind).

- Lofwyr has a knowledge skill for each of the AAA, save... Saeder-Krupp. He must also default for anything relating to a AA megacorporation. While it made perfect sense for dragons to have different, higher attributes maximums, they also have skills well above the theoretical limit at 7 (in Hestaby's case, 17 in Ritual Spellcasting).

- Tess van Hama write-up reads odd. If you read the text without the Jackpointer comments, as it should originally have appeared on Jackpoint, Rigger X actually never states the "high-ranking Mitsuhama executive" that fathered her must be Taiga or Toshiro Mitsuhama, and so speaks about the Mitsuhama family fortune without any explanation.

- I Am Legion short story outs Jonathan Blake as tied to Wuxing, something that doesn't appear at all in his write-up.

- Jonathan Blake write-up says he bought Centurion Security. It seems like this is the same Centurion that was in SOTA:64 and Vice. Except that is never was described as Seattle-based or a Cross Applied Technologies subsidiary (SOTA:64 actually described Centurion as "one of the most first major European private police corps" ; no Seattle sourcebooks mentioned it either). Since Jonathan Blake is likely to return and Seattle will be the primary theater of operations, I guess that's the reason to retcon the corp into a Seattle-based one. As for the Cross connection, maybe there's an deliberate intent to tie it to Seraphim and/or Ares Macrotechnology.

- The connection between Jonathon Reed and Nadja Daviar, Jonathon Reed and the New Revolution, and Nadja Daviar and Reality, Inc. had my brain spinning all around in a way it hasn't been since Dunkelzahn's Secrets I think.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (17:11:10/10-19-11)
That was the idea.


As for I Am Legion, I didn't have room to focus on the downsides as much as I'd have liked without compromising the beats I needed to hit.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Nath on (18:33:20/10-20-11)
One more comment/fun fact. In I Am Legion, as Thorn compares Nadja Daviar and Corinna fake DC accent, he concludes Corinna is a native English speaker, while Daviar is not. But that Corinna stats in Artifacts Unbound shows French as her native language ;)

By the way, in real life, "Division Action" name has been in use for about five years in the early eighties. For thirty years prior to that, and the twenty-five years that passed since, the name of the DGSE black ops unit has been "Service Action". I guess the Division Action name stuck because of the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (18:53:42/10-20-11)
She's also married. Rory got a lot of things about both women wrong.  ;)

Anyway, DA rose from the dead. Damn bureaucrats. I'm not sure how much she's going to be in Conspiracy Theories, but I like her. Not as much as Natalia, but a close second.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (00:09:07/10-21-11)
She's also married. Rory got a lot of things about both women wrong.  ;)
Or, rather, as I prefer to think of it, Rory got right the things they let him get right.  Remember, he's first and foremost a Warrior Adept.  A killer.  The extra stuff he's got is just that; extra.  His social and stealth skills exist to get him into, and out of violent situations.  He's a murderer that can get by as a face to do his main job better, not the other way around.

He pieced together enough to impress Nadja, and that was enough for things to progress.  He passed the test.  He didn't have to be spot on, he just had to show he wasn't just a brutal thug without anything between his pointy ears. 
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (00:27:05/10-21-11)
Brutal Thug Elves?

What's next, Rocket Surgeon Trolls?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (09:14:39/10-21-11)
Don't tempt fate, Ray.... ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (11:55:55/10-21-11)
Fate, never?

Freelancers and the crew of CGL?  Always.  ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (13:36:19/10-21-11)
Yeah, and look what happened. We have shedim commandos now.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: jonathanc on (14:39:27/10-27-11)
Was anyone else left wondering WTF Kellan Colt was doing in this book? I read the book trilogy and thought it was pretty alright (I even loaned it to new players to give them a taste of the setting), but she wasn't even the most legendary person in her crew (wasn't G-Dogg, or that big troll mage guy more famous than her?). She's never been mentioned in any Shadowrun product that I know of, outside of those three novels.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (15:46:55/10-27-11)
Was anyone else left wondering WTF Kellan Colt was doing in this book? I read the book trilogy and thought it was pretty alright (I even loaned it to new players to give them a taste of the setting), but she wasn't even the most legendary person in her crew (wasn't G-Dogg, or that big troll mage guy more famous than her?). She's never been mentioned in any Shadowrun product that I know of, outside of those three novels.
Check out Bull's response further up the thread (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4410.msg78743#msg78743).
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: jonathanc on (16:53:46/10-27-11)
Was anyone else left wondering WTF Kellan Colt was doing in this book? I read the book trilogy and thought it was pretty alright (I even loaned it to new players to give them a taste of the setting), but she wasn't even the most legendary person in her crew (wasn't G-Dogg, or that big troll mage guy more famous than her?). She's never been mentioned in any Shadowrun product that I know of, outside of those three novels.
Check out Bull's response further up the thread (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4410.msg78743#msg78743).
Thanks for the link; I remember when the novels first came out there was a lot of hate for them, but I defended them for more or less the reasons Bull listed. I'm still bemused by her presence in Street Legends, but oh well. I guess I'll have to wait a little longer to get officiial stats on G-Dogg.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (23:19:02/10-29-11)
Basically she was in SL because part of the appeal of the book was "hey, I know that guy/gal/chick/dragon!"  It's not JUST there to advance the metaplot and present top-tier characters, but also just as a fun way to show folks the stats of characters they know, regardless of the source.  Kellan was nominally the main character of a full trilogy of books (and some of the most recent ones, no less!), so that seemed worth a couple pages.  She's also something of a "stepping off point" for campaigns wanting to use SL, because she's (obviously) closer to a starting character than most of the other characters in there.  She might be a little more usable than some of the bigger, nastier, types.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Mystic on (23:23:46/10-29-11)
But...but, I LIKE some of the bigger, nastier types!

 8)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (23:24:41/10-29-11)
Yeah, I'll grant Kellen that...  But I'd have still rather seen Dirk, and gotten an explanation on his arm...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Grinder on (02:56:12/10-31-11)
Basically she was in SL because part of the appeal of the book was "hey, I know that guy/gal/chick/dragon!"  It's not JUST there to advance the metaplot and present top-tier characters, but also just as a fun way to show folks the stats of characters they know, regardless of the source.  Kellan was nominally the main character of a full trilogy of books (and some of the most recent ones, no less!), so that seemed worth a couple pages.  She's also something of a "stepping off point" for campaigns wanting to use SL, because she's (obviously) closer to a starting character than most of the other characters in there.  She might be a little more usable than some of the bigger, nastier, types.

Totally a character I expect in a book about legends, yeah.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Wakshaani on (09:36:22/11-08-11)
One lesson I wish comic writers would learn, and something I muttered under my breath all through the last several years of sprawling crossovers, retcons, heroes turning out to be Skrulls, heroes turning into assholes over Superhuman Registration, etc, etc, is simply this:  everyone is someone's favorite character

Going back a bit in the files, here, but, as a notation on this? When Mark Gruenwald was cleaning house at Marvel, using the Scourge to bump off a ton of lame Marvel villains, one of the ones he capped was a fellow by the name of Turner D. Century. Ol' Turner was a mad scientist who was obsessed with the 1890s, who had such 'amazing' inventions as a flamethrowing umbrella and a flying bicycle built for two (He didn't have a partner, however, so a robot sat on the back and pedaled for him) ... he'd only been seen twice, one time of which involved him making a ray that woul dkill everyone under the age of sixty five in a city.

No, I don't know how that would have worked.

At any rate, after erasing that guy from Marvel, Gruenwald got death threats. Death threats! Over Turner D. Century!

And that's when he realized that every comic character, no matter how lame that they might seem, has a fan, and they shoud thus be treated carefully.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't bump someone off if the story calls for it. Heck, scriptwriting 102 involves sitting around and asking "What happens if I kill off so-n-so?", just to see how pieces move around in the aftermath. Aina's death is going to move pieces around and advance the plot, and, clearly, there *will* be an aftermath.

She might not be TheBig D or Hatchetman, but I have confidence that, down the road, you'll look back at her death and say, "Yeah, good things came from that."

Still waiting for my Street Legends to ship in, by the by, for a proper lookover, but an initial glance gave me a few plots and quite a few grins.

For those just now dropping in, however, I'm curious as to who *isn't* in the book that you'd like to see.

(More after mine arrives!)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (09:49:51/11-08-11)
Spoiler from Artifacts Unbound:
[spoiler]The question is, after reading Praxis, did anyone else besides Aina die, or did she sacrifice herself to save the others?[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Digital_Viking on (09:50:22/11-08-11)
Going back a bit in the files, here, but, as a notation on this? When Mark Gruenwald was cleaning house at Marvel, using the Scourge to bump off a ton of lame Marvel villains, one of the ones he capped was a fellow by the name of Turner D. Century. Ol' Turner was a mad scientist who was obsessed with the 1890s, who had such 'amazing' inventions as a flamethrowing umbrella and a flying bicycle built for two (He didn't have a partner, however, so a robot sat on the back and pedaled for him) ... he'd only been seen twice, one time of which involved him making a ray that woul dkill everyone under the age of sixty five in a city.

No, I don't know how that would have worked.

At any rate, after erasing that guy from Marvel, Gruenwald got death threats. Death threats! Over Turner D. Century!

And that's when he realized that every comic character, no matter how lame that they might seem, has a fan, and they shoud thus be treated carefully.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't bump someone off if the story calls for it. Heck, scriptwriting 102 involves sitting around and asking "What happens if I kill off so-n-so?", just to see how pieces move around in the aftermath. Aina's death is going to move pieces around and advance the plot, and, clearly, there *will* be an aftermath.

She might not be TheBig D or Hatchetman, but I have confidence that, down the road, you'll look back at her death and say, "Yeah, good things came from that."

Still waiting for my Street Legends to ship in, by the by, for a proper lookover, but an initial glance gave me a few plots and quite a few grins.

For those just now dropping in, however, I'm curious as to who *isn't* in the book that you'd like to see.

(More after mine arrives!)

I agree comepletely - heck the steaming pile of fail (IMO) that was Civil War begat one very awesome thing:  A returned Thor beating Iron Man's ass up and down a Katrina ravaged New Orleans.

So who knows what good may come of this!
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (09:55:25/11-08-11)
Spoiler from Artifacts Unbound:
[spoiler]The question is, after reading Praxis, did anyone else besides Aina die, or did she sacrifice herself to save the others?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I don't speak with any authority, but I think the latter. I know quite a few survived because they have stat blocks in Street Legends or AU itself, and James came right out and said that if they were in SL or AU's Character Trove, they survived. Now, that does leave some room for interpretation....[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (10:39:22/11-08-11)
Spoiler from Artifacts Unbound:
[spoiler]The question is, after reading Praxis, did anyone else besides Aina die, or did she sacrifice herself to save the others?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I don't speak with any authority, but I think the latter. I know quite a few survived because they have stat blocks in Street Legends or AU itself, and James came right out and said that if they were in SL or AU's Character Trove, they survived. Now, that does leave some room for interpretation....[/spoiler]
True, but that only covers [spoiler]Frosty, Lugh Surehand and Hestaby.[/spoiler]From the story we know [spoiler]Harlequin[/spoiler] survived. But that leaves [spoiler]Jonathon Reed, Aden and whomever Crusader might be.[/spoiler]Oh, [spoiler]and did Ghostwalker come BACK from the metaplanes, or is he still there??[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: jonathanc on (11:14:44/11-08-11)
Going back a bit in the files, here, but, as a notation on this? When Mark Gruenwald was cleaning house at Marvel, using the Scourge to bump off a ton of lame Marvel villains, one of the ones he capped was a fellow by the name of Turner D. Century. Ol' Turner was a mad scientist who was obsessed with the 1890s, who had such 'amazing' inventions as a flamethrowing umbrella and a flying bicycle built for two (He didn't have a partner, however, so a robot sat on the back and pedaled for him) ... he'd only been seen twice, one time of which involved him making a ray that woul dkill everyone under the age of sixty five in a city.

No, I don't know how that would have worked.

At any rate, after erasing that guy from Marvel, Gruenwald got death threats. Death threats! Over Turner D. Century!

And that's when he realized that every comic character, no matter how lame that they might seem, has a fan, and they shoud thus be treated carefully.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't bump someone off if the story calls for it. Heck, scriptwriting 102 involves sitting around and asking "What happens if I kill off so-n-so?", just to see how pieces move around in the aftermath. Aina's death is going to move pieces around and advance the plot, and, clearly, there *will* be an aftermath.

She might not be TheBig D or Hatchetman, but I have confidence that, down the road, you'll look back at her death and say, "Yeah, good things came from that."

Still waiting for my Street Legends to ship in, by the by, for a proper lookover, but an initial glance gave me a few plots and quite a few grins.

For those just now dropping in, however, I'm curious as to who *isn't* in the book that you'd like to see.

(More after mine arrives!)

I agree comepletely - heck the steaming pile of fail (IMO) that was Civil War begat one very awesome thing:  A returned Thor beating Iron Man's ass up and down a Katrina ravaged New Orleans.

So who knows what good may come of this!
I prefer Namor's kicking of Iron Man's ass in that Illuminati one-shot. What happens when Iron Man fights Namor underwater? Exactly what you think would happen (http://media.photobucket.com/image/iron man vs namor/goetz420/tnai-01-019.jpg). :D
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (22:33:40/11-08-11)
But that leaves [spoiler]Jonathon Reed, Aden and whomever Crusader might be.[/spoiler]Oh, [spoiler]and did Ghostwalker come BACK from the metaplanes, or is he still there??[/spoiler]
As for who lives
[spoiler]
Reed lives. He's mentioned in Street Legends and Jessa is dragging him away at the end of A Tale of Two Princes while Tintagel evacuates Surehand.
[/spoiler]

That said
[spoiler]
There were other people there that didn't get identified.[/spoiler]

As for GW
[spoiler]
Can't say, won't say.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: shrike on (17:41:07/01-14-12)
*snip* [spoiler]and did Ghostwalker come BACK from the metaplanes, or is he still there??[/spoiler]
As for GW[spoiler]Can't say, won't say.[/spoiler]

What if we say please?
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (17:43:56/01-14-12)
Then we have further proof in Jim Butcher's statement that it's like Heroin for writers to deny fans what you know you're going to do in the future.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (19:58:49/01-14-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:02:27/01-14-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
Thanks.  I can feel the love here.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (20:07:47/01-14-12)
My hatred is more of a crushing presence, If you have a burning sensation, you may want to get that checked out by a doctor.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:30:22/01-14-12)
More like a general darkness and miasma of being unwanted and worthlessness.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Critias on (20:38:51/01-14-12)
More like a general darkness and miasma of being unwanted and worthlessness.
And you think freelancing Shadowrun work for CGL is gonna make that better?   ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:40:05/01-14-12)
More like a general darkness and miasma of being unwanted and worthlessness.
And you think freelancing Shadowrun work for CGL is gonna make that better?   ;)
Just a pipe dream...  Hell, look at my work, I'm a hack.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Crimsondude on (20:41:27/01-14-12)
That's a mighty severe case of Being Canadian there. I suggest you drink a couple shitty American beers (Coors Light being the most vile and thus powerful medicine) and cheer for the Pats, and those symptoms may clear up in a few days.*


*Note: I am not a real doctor. For entertainment purposes only. No one should have to drink Coors Light or cheer for the Pats, but a man's gotta do what he's gotta do against the evil incubus known as Tebow.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (20:48:01/01-14-12)
I'll drink something stronger, thank you very much, like tapwater.

I did go through a few pints of Budweiser the other night.  It was cheap as Labatts is their sponsor of sorts and the local bars had it for like half the price of anything else.  And no other draft was open, either.  So, spend more and drink Blue, or cheap Bud.  I'm on a budget.

Also, US-Style football confuses me.  It's the fact that the field is so short, I think.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Longshot23 on (03:32:10/01-15-12)
You want confusing football, CanRay, try watching Aussie Rules sometime . . . .
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (03:54:52/01-15-12)
You want confusing football, CanRay, try watching Aussie Rules sometime . . . .
Last time I tried, I thought I was watching footage from Afghanistan.  Then I realized people didn't have firearms.

That might have been Rugby, however.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: JustADude on (04:41:51/01-15-12)
Also, US-Style football confuses me.  It's the fact that the field is so short, I think.

It's really not that different, it's just 100 yards instead of 101 meters.

Why you add that extra meter, on top of stretching the field by converting the units to metric, is beyond me. Must be drinking too much fermented maple syrup or something.  ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Catadmin on (12:32:16/01-15-12)
Must be drinking too much fermented maple syrup or something.  ;)

We freelancers do that on a regular basis. Where do you think we get our ideas? @=)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: FastJack on (13:49:54/01-15-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
James' preferred drink while he's writing:
(http://becausewerenotallthere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/aussie-haterade.gif?w=692)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: CanRay on (14:49:41/01-15-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
James' preferred drink while he's writing:
(http://becausewerenotallthere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/aussie-haterade.gif?w=692)
He adds fermented maple syrup in order to especially hate me.  ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Neurosis on (15:38:35/01-15-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
James' preferred drink while he's writing:
(http://becausewerenotallthere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/aussie-haterade.gif?w=692)

I loled.
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Outrider45 on (21:32:49/01-15-12)
No. I just hate you all, especially CanRay.
James' preferred drink while he's writing:
(http://becausewerenotallthere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/aussie-haterade.gif?w=692)

I think I know what I'm drinking when I DM for FastJack next sunday!  ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:05:54/01-18-12)
Tennessee here. A pox on your syrup. We have biscuits and gravy.

Mmm, gravy...
Title: Re: Street Legends Review
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on (01:59:25/01-19-12)
Also, US-Style football confuses me.  It's the fact that the field is so short, I think.
The confusing part must be the name. The don't kick the ball, they throw it and carry it up the field.
Soccer and hacky-sack is football...  ::)

Rasmus