Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: LordBiBo on <08-03-11/0946:56>
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Is there something I am missing?
In 3rd edition shadowrun and earlier one needed a datajack to plug into their deck to do any sort of matrix stuff so the need for a datajack is pretty simple and clear.
In 4e, everything is wireless now. Everyone has a commlink which is way cheaper than a deck ever was and seems to be able to do everything a deck could do and more. Seems to me that since the things are wireless, once you put an internal commlink into your head, you have all the equipment you need to hack (of course there are plenty of other toys to make the job easier, but thats another story). Just use its internal wireless signal to connect to the matrix (or pretty much anything including someone else's cyberware or say toaster if you just wanna be annoying) just about anywhere. If this is the case, why do datajacks still exist? I cant for the life of me figure it out. Is there some purpose they have that I am missing?
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Style, mostly.
-k
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And while most everything can be accessed via wireless signal, the most secure means of data transfer and communication will always be the physical hardwired connection. That which isn't wireless can't be wirelessly hacked, after all. And one can always better secure a fixed point installation than a mesh network.
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why use a datajack . . . er . . . I was gonna say something about safer cyber sex (with no worries of someone else jumping in) . . . but thought maybe that way crossing a line . . .
yeah security . . . thats a better answer :)
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Security is a prime concern, in my games most serious corporations will keep as much of their network hardwired as possible. It's also easier to replace/upgrade a commlink that is hardwired via your datajack than it is to replace/upgrade an implanted one.
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DNI is a better interface than Wireless for some things.
Sometimes more dangerous, but...well...nobody said running in the Shadows was gonna be safe.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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A Datajack lost its effectiveness about 2064 as soon as a Trodenet became just as fast as a DJ, but all those that had it implanted until than will still have it so a DJ (and maybe Cybereyes )is (are ) the most accepted ' ware.
You can still use a DJ as a central node ,to store Data and there is also the security aspect
Two of my Chars use their DJ (& Imagelink) for Emoti-Soft or Lie-Detection-Soft
with an outdated but still useful Dance
Medicineman
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Having had my head wired up a few times (Don't ask), setting up a 'trode net is not like just tossing on a baseball cap. It should be a difficult process that takes little skill (Just follow the AR Instructions that are going to your glasses), but a bit of time. Otherwise, the system will not work right. At least, that's how I've ruled it.
Datajack? Slot and 'run, chummer!
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Oi Chums,
Data Jacks do seem a bit antiquated when it comes to hacking but as posted previously there is the benefit of security with a hard wired connection. I think Data Jacks are more important for vehicle riggers. Wireless control of your vehicle is all well and good but when your screaming through the Rockies with PuebSec forces on your tail I think it wise to ensure you have the strongest secured connection available hardwired right to your gray matter.
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Or one jerk in the van decides to start playing with the signal jammer because the Security RFID Tags on the Maguffin just started screaming.
Or the cow is freaking out, kicking the walls, and is transmitting:
"I'M BEING STOLEN!"
At the top of it's electronic voice...
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Having had my head wired up a few times (Don't ask), setting up a 'trode net is not like just tossing on a baseball cap. It should be a difficult process that takes little skill (Just follow the AR Instructions that are going to your glasses), but a bit of time. Otherwise, the system will not work right. At least, that's how I've ruled it.
Datajack? Slot and 'run, chummer!
Actually, by the 2070s it's "smear the trode paste all over, attach the leads to wherever on the paste, let the nanites take care of the rest".
...there is the benefit of security with a hard wired connection.
So... why not 'trodes instead of a Datajack? They're both hardwired connections, potentially.
-k
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Ya they're outdated, but I they bring back that classic feel that I miss so much. As soon as I finish my Knight Errant Fanbook I've gotta get to work on my 2050 Fanbook for SR4A.
Trodes are cheaper on the essence, but you can't argue with the plug and play simplicity of the datajack.
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Having had my head wired up a few times (Don't ask), setting up a 'trode net is not like just tossing on a baseball cap. It should be a difficult process that takes little skill (Just follow the AR Instructions that are going to your glasses), but a bit of time. Otherwise, the system will not work right. At least, that's how I've ruled it.
Datajack? Slot and 'run, chummer!
Actually, by the 2070s it's "smear the trode paste all over, attach the leads to wherever on the paste, let the nanites take care of the rest".
...there is the benefit of security with a hard wired connection.
So... why not 'trodes instead of a Datajack? They're both hardwired connections, potentially.
-k
There's 'Trode Nanopaste (Which is wireless), and a 'Trode Net (Which is what I described) which is hard wired.
So, you go Skript Kiddie "I haz all da newz techies!" with the Nanopaste and suddenly fall into dumpshock with something as simple as a signal jammer, or you take forever.
Or you get a datajack. All in how you want to play it.
That said, Nanopaste does have it's uses. Electronic Raves, for instance, which even awakened can enjoy without the loss of essence. As well as simsense arcades (Which are probably dying as there are now simsense consoles with DLC Games), and even just simflicks.
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There's 'Trode Nanopaste (Which is wireless), and a 'Trode Net (Which is what I described) which is hard wired.
Except that any gear can be had in non-wireless flavors, per the rules. :)
Probably the easiest way to do that with the paste is Skinlink.
-k
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*The Dirtiest Look You've Ever Had Leveled At You*
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Datajacks still exist in the book, because pretty much all characters are older then the wireless matrix and as such many of them would have gotten them back in the day and there's no reason to rip them out just because everythink started to go wireless, so they still have them 8)
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Thanks Max. I was just having a great week without feeling old. It was wonderful. I was figuring that this was how most people my age actually felt.
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Is now a good time to point out I am old enough that I could not play Shadowrun in college cos it hadn't been invented yet?
:)
-k
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Work at a high school, then you'll feel old.
But yeah in SR4, datajacks are something you might put into a cyberlimb with spare capacity for fluff. You can houserule them into usefulness (either by making them better or trodes worse) though.
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Work at a high school, then you'll feel old.
No thanks, taking a tour of my old one before moving here was bad enough.
I think this is something we're going to have to posit to the folks that are currently busy at GenCon however.
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Ok, here's my two nuyen for datajacks. Say you have an installed commlink in your head, and a datajack. You are in a corp that's got wifi locked down harder than a troll in prison. How do you get in chummers, when there is no wifi? You jack right in to their console. It's still needed, because corps will hardwire their most secure systems, and just shut down all of the wifi in an area. I imagine anything they REALLY don't want getting hacked will be in a room with faraday paint, plus a signal jammer inside. Remember, corps are as terrified of technomancers as everyone else in the world, and the best way to shut a techno down is to make it so you HAVE to jack in to a physical location WITHIN a complex to get at the info they don't want you to get at.
Yeah, the researchers will have their days work out in the lab on wifi, to make their work easier and faster, but at the end of the day, they would upload it all physically to the "vault". Part of the problem of being a GM is trying to think about how a megacorp would set up their security. These are businesses that spend billions of nuyen on security alone. Including hiring "consultants" to figure out the fastest and easiest ways into their data, and then fixing those security holes. A great way to do that is to use obsolete tech that still happens to work. It's like putting an old padlock on a door when everything prior had been maglocks. Good chance that the tech whiz that zoomed through your electronic defenses won't know how to even begin messing with an old school lock. And you had better believe the megas will do anything they can to keep people from easily accessing the paydata on their newest research.
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another thought:
most characters, even if newly made, would be old enough or have personal history that would require they had a datajack, like anyone that was a wage slave data worker prior to crash 2.0.
of course that assumes they had no reason to have it removed in the following years.
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One thing that lots of folks forget (Because it's not as big an issue any longer) is memory storage. Datajacks are specially stated to have some. So if you don't want to trust transmitting the paydata to the Troll's Databoxer Shorts to keep it safe... Just keep it in your head.
Also, low essence way to have a Technomancer have some memory capacity hardwired into them. And, "I can't be one of those Evil Technomancers, see, Datajack. Brand new one, too!"
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Ok, here's my two nuyen for datajacks. Say you have an installed commlink in your head, and a datajack. You are in a corp that's got wifi locked down harder than a troll in prison. How do you get in chummers, when there is no wifi? You jack right in to their console. It's still needed, because corps will hardwire their most secure systems, and just shut down all of the wifi in an area.
Again, why a datajack as opposed to 'trodes?
Both can be used for wired hacking.
-k
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Some of use LIKE to have holes drilled into our skulls, thankyouverymuch.
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think USB vs chunk of uncapped CAT6 cable
Datajack= USB: walk in, plug in, go
trodes= CAT6: make sure you get everything in the right spot, re adjust, go
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That, and as said earlier, trodes don't have that extra bit of memory. The memory in a datajack can also be datalocked with the right implant, making someone a walking Johnny Mnemonic. Doesn't matter how much security you have on that commlink, there aren't even RULES for hacking a datalock.... At least, not that I've found.... They just mention needing a special code, and THEN it's still encrypted. Like having this installed in your head. http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/99f1/ (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/99f1/)
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Hell, I want one of those things stuck in my head.
Forgot my damned memory stick at home today when I went to do some work and...
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Buy one, and I'll bring the hammer.... ;D
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drill and 30 second epoxy,, gotta make it stay in place,,,,,
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That, and as said earlier, trodes don't have that extra bit of memory. The memory in a datajack can also be datalocked with the right implant, making someone a walking Johnny Mnemonic. Doesn't matter how much security you have on that commlink, there aren't even RULES for hacking a datalock.... At least, not that I've found.... They just mention needing a special code, and THEN it's still encrypted. Like having this installed in your head. http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/99f1/ (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/99f1/)
Trodes do have storage space. Everything in SR has arbitrarily large storage space.
As for the datalock, since the entry mentions +Encryption, I think you're suppose to buy the Encrypt program for it. Otherwise, there's no way to buy a datalock since who know how much the Encryption costs? If you use the Encrypt program then it's as good as any old datajack. You're paying 500Y more for no DNI (which is arguable for this role).
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I'm hoping that when 5E rolls around they do a comprehensive cyber update and give datajacks some benefit or functionality improvement over trodes. I realize that they wanted to make sure all the magicrun mages wouldn't feel left out of the matrix game but I have a hard time wrapping my head aroudn the notion that the same quality of signal/bandwidth can be achieved through the hair/skull as through a directly interfaced connection.
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-Unwired mentioned the hierarchy: Skinlink&Nanopast < Trodes < Datajack because the distance between commlink and brain matters for the reaction speed in the matrix (not enough to give additional dices, though)
-Another difference is, in how you stop a hacker from being a hacker (e.g. as a GM)
Trodes for 50$: They get broken or stolen or simple taken away by the guards.
Nanopast: Hot summer and the hacker is sweating or a bucket of water into the hacker's face. (works also for the trodes)
Headcommlink: Yeah, headjammer, but not every npc enemy will carry something like that.
Datajack: Although, you can take away the cable, you can find a new cable much easier than new trodes.
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another thought:
most characters, even if newly made, would be old enough or have personal history that would require they had a datajack, like anyone that was a wage slave data worker prior to crash 2.0.
of course that assumes they had no reason to have it removed in the following years.
Exactly what I was thinking. If you have a character older than 25-30 years old most likely they're old enough to required a data jack to even interface with the matrix effectively unless I'm mistaken for thinking that at least that level of cyber enhancement would have been normal even for kids becoming teenagers and such back in 2050.
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IIRC, you needed to be 18 to get one without parental consent. 16 with. In the UCAS at least.
Can't remember where I read that, however.
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legally, yes it was probably 18,
a few extra bucks and the right street doc, you could probably get one as soon as you could pay.
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As I can remember it, don't orks and trolls have shorter lifespans, and hit physical maturity a bit earlier than other metas? Would be kind of a dick move to keep orks and trolls from finding jobs in tech industries because "technically" they aren't old enough... As fully grown adults...
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you think the UCAS is bad, age of majority in the Tir is either 21 or 25.
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As I can remember it, don't orks and trolls have shorter lifespans, and hit physical maturity a bit earlier than other metas? Would be kind of a dick move to keep orks and trolls from finding jobs in tech industries because "technically" they aren't old enough... As fully grown adults...
Sounds to me like an easy way for the "MAN" to keep "the right" meta humans down.
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As I can remember it, don't orks and trolls have shorter lifespans, and hit physical maturity a bit earlier than other metas? Would be kind of a dick move to keep orks and trolls from finding jobs in tech industries because "technically" they aren't old enough... As fully grown adults...
Sounds to me like an easy way for the "MAN" to keep "the right" meta humans down.
Or just a case of the laws/governments not being able to keep up with changing times.
I mean, hell, they only fired the Microfiche Machine Repair Technicians in Ottawa a few years ago, IIRC. Those had all been scanned into digital format as soon as OCR-Capable scanners and CD Burners allowed for it, I think.
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As I can remember it, don't orks and trolls have shorter lifespans, and hit physical maturity a bit earlier than other metas? Would be kind of a dick move to keep orks and trolls from finding jobs in tech industries because "technically" they aren't old enough... As fully grown adults...
Sounds to me like an easy way for the "MAN" to keep "the right" meta humans down.
Or just a case of the laws/governments not being able to keep up with changing times.
I mean, hell, they only fired the Microfiche Machine Repair Technicians in Ottawa a few years ago, IIRC. Those had all been scanned into digital format as soon as OCR-Capable scanners and CD Burners allowed for it, I think.
Either works i suppose, I just count on people being racist.
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Having worked for a few bureaucracies, I can tell you it's like to be one, the other, or both. Or just plain (Meta)human stupidity.
We're only a couple generations (Even Ork generations!) into what's going on in the world. Entrenched ideals don't change that fast. They are doing so faster now than they have before, but... Well, the more things change and all that.
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Alright, I can understand keeping a system wired for security purposes. But I would imagine that someone could have come up with a device that works like a wireless cable for old systems that aren't wireless yet. just a little jack, plug it into the socket and it transmits wireless. never read about something specifically existing, but I see no reason why it wouldn't. I mean heck, we have usb versions of that irl. Jammers of course would still be an issue, but there are ways around that too.
as for memory, dont all commlinks have memory? and seeing as how memory chips are like 1 nuyen and can hold limitless amounts of info, I doubt the resonance loss for technomancers is worth the integrated memory. I can think of a whole lot of better ways to use a point of essence
oh speaking about better uses of a point of essence, is it me, or are vcrs way too cheap in 4e (and not as good for that matter)? I dont see why every hacker out there doesnt put one in. kinda destroys the idea of a dedicated rigger if you ask me...
still, the argument that older shadowrunners would probably still have a datajack is valid. of course when I play, I use a self brew alternate universe. so the timeline of things happening is different. keeps players from debating the facts of what is going on in the world. whats going on is what I say is going on damnit! :: smacks a pestering player ::
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Here's a question: do Datajacks have to be in your head? Could you have one in your hand or other places?
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They have to be near the major nervous system, IIRC. Temples are easiest to access, but most noticeable. I've also heard of behind the neck (Usually hidden by hair) and down the back.
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what if you have a cyber skull and torso? couldnt that make it able to reroute the connection to another port?
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temple, behind ears, base of the skull, down the spine and within larger more obvious cyber ( assuming the char has some headware) have been common in my games.
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Wasn't there a datajack that was built into a cybereye?
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Wasn't there a datajack that was built into a cybereye?
Yes, yes there was.
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Good, thought I was having an old man moment the...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
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They have to be near the major nervous system, IIRC.
I don't know about that, considering that you can get one into your cyber leg or hand, can't see why that would n'twork for a natural arm or leg.
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that more falls under a "same essence, alpha cost" custom location sort of thing.
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And really, with some of the gamers I know, you do not want them to have custom locations for where they want to "interface" with the computer....
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i think i know that guy,,, grrr he gets around.
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And really, with some of the gamers I know, you do not want them to have custom locations for where they want to "interface" with the computer....
Yeah, just wait until the first time they run into some Black IC...
...they'll rethink that.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Practice safe Matrix Interfacing!
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Yeah, put a condom over your plug.
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Funny story, if I can go off topic... (Yeah, like that never happens here!).
Back in the day, there used to be things called "Floppy Disks". They were 3½-inch in size (or 5¼-inch for the older model), and came with a nice plastic dust cover. We got our shiny new floppy disks on the first day I was in High School and it was supposed to hold all the data for our projects for the semester (1.44 Megabytes!). But we had to format them. So, a group at a time, we went to the old Apple Mac Classic-II computers, and did just that.
About halfway through the class, we all smell smoke and everyone goes silent, and we can hear crackling. One of the girls in the class was staring in horror at an error message (Which had a *BOMB* on it!). After a lot of work (And a paperclip) the teacher finally got the disk out, and found the dust cover melted to it, and it peeling out of the integrated disk drive (Yes, the whole computer had to be sent in to be repaired!).
Her only explanation: "I thought it was a condom for the disk, to keep it from getting viruses."
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Back on topic: With the proliferation of Commlinks, people like the girl in my story are now online in Shadowrun.
It's no wonder Bull and FastJack are getting crankier by the nanoclick.
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My feeling is that datajacks have one large advantage over a trode-net or non-wireless nano-paste trodes. When you're hacking in full VR and your meat get's jostled, the connection is a lot less likely to sever. Basically, it's not just more electronically secure than a wireless connection, it's also more secure, physically. It's the basic problem with using an induction signal instead of a direct shunt. Yeah, the nano-paste might reconnect you in a second or two, if the connector doesn't come loose, but that dumpshock's still going to hurt like a mother-f-----.
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can i get an amen??!?!
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In one game I ran, the hacker suffered Dumpshock... Four times in one day, I think, and was unable to soak one point of damage. Just a bit of rest and back into the streets.
He decided to go lay down and sleep after he started bleeding from the nose, eyes, and ears (Stun Track to Physical Track). "F*** the rest of you, I'm going to bed."
It wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for the fact that he was locked in the back of a Lone Star squad car for the third one.
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Personally, I like a data jack along with other cyber-ware just so your other gear isn't wireless. I don't even want the possibly someone can hack my eyes, ears or limbs.
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And there's just something satisfying about having plugs in your body. ;D
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Personally, I like a data jack along with other cyber-ware just so your other gear isn't wireless. I don't even want the possibly someone can hack my eyes, ears or limbs.
You realize you can turn the wireless off and just run cyberware off of DNI, right?
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A few points in the book try to make a good case for why cyberwear has wireless, and why it should be on. Being able to run diagnostic links and updating firmware being the primary reason, but some cyberware -has- to be wireless if you don't have a datajack. Your imagelink eyes and soundlink ears can't talk to your comlink without wireless unless it's stuffed in your body too. A smartlink requires a connection to the weapon.
Well, play it like a hipster and go wired. No spoof command can mess with your gun if it's wireless is turned off. Nobody can detect your nodes in hidden mode if you went to the secret 4th option: Radio = Off mode. Heck, you can just use it to run all your other cyberware though the fortress of upgraded firewalls and black IC your paranoid shadowrunner heart can put on your comlink before you expose yourself to the wide open world.
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Heck, you can just use it to run all your other cyberware though the fortress of upgraded firewalls and black IC your paranoid shadowrunner heart can put on your comlink before you expose yourself to the wide open world.
Series of CommLinks with High Firewall systems and a few "Honey Pots". ;D And one MetaLink used for public and obvious use during the day. :P
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Your imagelink eyes and soundlink ears can't talk to your comlink without wireless unless it's stuffed in your body too. A smartlink requires a connection to the weapon.
thats not quite right
You can use Skinlink for 50 ¥ or a Cable for 5 ¥
with a Wireless Dance
Medicineman
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Acutely, without a datajack you can't run cybereyes/ears on a cable, and skinlink is a bit confusing, as normally it allows other skinlinked devices to talk to each other. If cyberware counts as skinlinked or not is debatable.
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Acutely, without a datajack you can't run cybereyes/ears on a cable, and skinlink is a bit confusing, as normally it allows other skinlinked devices to talk to each other. If cyberware counts as skinlinked or not is debatable.
Cyberware that is within about 1.5" of the surface of the skin can use Skinlink. Deeper 'ware can also use Skinlink, but needs to have a modification to allow it to work (basically an "antenna" to get it within range of the Skinlink).
This is per RAW, but I don't have the book handy to cite the page number.
EDIT: Unwired, page 61
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Thanks Joe, makes it pretty clear that skinlink removes most reasons you'd want a datajack.
An odd question, dose it ever explicitly say that your implants can share information over DNI? If so, as long as you have one implant skinlink-able, all of them are. If they can't.. well, I would be surprised.
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Instead of using a datajack to connect to non-wireless data you want to steal it would be logic just to have a small router that you plug into a port and then connect wireless to that.
Thats how I get internet on my computer at home. Vastly superior to a netcable dragged through half the house ;D
Rasmus
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Or you could plug your comlink into the computer you want to steal data from directly. (Comlinks do generally have a port for that)
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Thanks Joe, makes it pretty clear that skinlink removes most reasons you'd want a datajack.
An odd question, dose it ever explicitly say that your implants can share information over DNI? If so, as long as you have one implant skinlink-able, all of them are. If they can't.. well, I would be surprised.
Yes.
DNI and Wireless Functionality
Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface,allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant. - AUG 31
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Well, there you go. The reason to buy a datajack is the same reason someone buys a cyberweapon. So that they have their item of choice and it can't just be taken off of them. The datajack can talk to your commlink via a skinlink, thus allowing you to to full VR without risking the trodenet being ripped off, the nanopaste being washed off or the cable being yanked out. You only have to worry about the commlink being removed from contact with your body and that's probably under your clothes, so if that happens you have bigger problems than dumpshock.
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Also makes it harder for your crew to jack you out if you're hitting Black IC...
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Also makes it harder for your crew to jack you out if you're hitting Black IC...
...if that happens you have bigger problems than dumpshock.
:P
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So with DNI links on all cyberware, does that means I have direct neural interface with my built in cyberarm commlink?
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So with DNI links on all cyberware, does that means I have direct neural interface with my built in cyberarm commlink?
Unless otherwise stated, cyberware that is capable of being activated or deactivated can be done so with a mental impulse. -- AUG 32
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Sure but now that it is in my arm, can I send text messages essentially telepathically? Can I launch programs that way as well? Curios if there is any need for AR gloves or trodes or anything with a internal commlink. The exact limits of DNI seems murky to me
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Sure but now that it is in my arm, can I send text messages essentially telepathically? Can I launch programs that way as well? Curios if there is any need for AR gloves or trodes or anything with a internal commlink. The exact limits of DNI seems murky to me
Starting point: SR4A 338:
In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants.
So:
Since you could send text messages essentially telepathically if it was implanted in your brain, the limb implant will let you do the same. yes, you can launch programs that way as well. Trodes are not needed; their purpose is to give the user a DNI link to their comm which are part and parcel of cybermods. If you used AR Gloves when you used trodes, then you'll still want them for your DNI. They aren't necessary but for some people they make interfacing easier (due to the tactile feedback they give).
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If I may rephrase what I said above, the easiest way to think of it is:
When trodes are implanted they become DNI.