Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Neurosis on <07-22-11/1808:47>
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Which do you guys prefer?
The frag, drek, slot, slitch, hoop, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnusualEuphemism) etc. of 3E and earlier or the, well, real curse words of the modern era that have returned to prevalence in 4E. (You know which ones.)
Personally speaking, I always felt that frag and drek detracted from the game's more serious moments in earlier editions, and when roleplaying as someone angry or flustered, I would often let slip with the real thing, both because real curse words are ingrained in my manner of speaking, and to avoid defusing dialogue of its seriousness by using a silly euphemism. Especially when playing professional criminals and street toughs who tend to swear like sailors. So basically I thought the unexplainable and kind-of-hand-waved reemergence of 'fuck' in the sixth world was overall a good thing.
But....I do occasionally miss the old slang, purely out of nostalgia for a better, simpler time in my life.
What do you folks think?
Copious apologies if this topic has already been done or done to death elsewhere on these forums.
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Added a poll to the thread for ya... Should be interesting. ;)
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I prefer frag etc. I think it really added to the setting and I never felt it reduced the seriousness of the game. Language especially slang changes over time, given the rather tumultuous times they had in 60 years I almost think they didn't go far enough with the slang.
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I tend to be a bit more "American PG" with my writing and playing... (So basically, Violence, OK. Swearing and porn, not so much). Just how I am.
Se I prefer the old school SR slang. Not only does it relieve the need to be outright excessively vulgar, but it added a lot of flavor to the game world. One of many things that instantly said "You are in another time, another place".
For modern Shadowrun, I prefer a mix. The slang wouldn;t have just vanished, even if it did fall out of favor.
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I'm a mixed bag on the slang. I like it because it adds a ton of flavor to the setting and gives you a way to self moderate if you want to be a crude, crass, or vulgar runner but have tender ears at or around the table, but as was mentioned above, if I'm in the moment and in character, there's a good chance some F-Bombs are going to fly (I'd like to pretend that my sailor-speak gets translated somewhere between my mouth and the land of make believe to be 100% in character and in period).
Also, I love the term bleeding-edge. Etymologically, that's about as sound and likely of a prediction for the evolution of language that I have ever seen in any fantasy or sci-fi setting.
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When I write for public consumption I use the old "PC" terms to get around the "Adult" settings and allow people with no accounts to see it.
Otherwise, I typically use a mixture in my games, even if I get weird looks from my group...
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I prefer the old slang. It set it apart from other games.
Back in high school, a group was playing James Bond and the host's mom walks in just as I let loose with a choice profanity (I felt like such an ass). Really wish we would have been playing Shadowrun instead. :-[
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I actually like a mix of both. In some areas of Seattle and in some age groups, one way; in others, the other. I think in moderation the "made up" slang can be fun and add to the setting, but I also think that in moderation the "real" stuff can add a bit of emphasis and grit.
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I find myself using a mix too, with older runners using frag and drek and more up-to-date characters or characters who are OLDER STILL using the real stuff again. So kind of like a shitdrekshit sandwich. One reason I never liked the old stuff, really (although it still makes me nostalgic) is because it really felt like a copout for ratings and to appease moral watchdogs and just 'soft', and I hate all forms of censorship, including self-censorship.
The official content uses a mix too, with characters like Bull. Speaking of which...
I tend to be a bit more "American PG" with my writing and playing... (So basically, Violence, OK. Swearing and porn, not so much). Just how I am.
My writing is very heavy on violence and swearing; while there is no "porn", there is other mature adult content (drug abuse, sex, etcetera).
Speaking of which, I kind of call BS on this. SRM 04-01 which you wrote is very very very very NOT PG. And is probably well in the realm of a hard 'R' rating, content wise. I won't say more because I don't want to spoil anyone.
I prefer the old slang. It set it apart from other games.
Mayhap, but it does move it closer to Battlestar Galactica, at least so I've read.
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Well.. There's nothing totally explicit in 04-01 unless the GM wants to put it there. But it's definitely set up for that and implied. But, in that instance, it had to go there, for story purposes. It had to go dark for that section to have the resonance it needs to have with the players and/or characters.
Bull
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Oh, I approve of it, I'm just saying....the bunraku parlor scene...emphatically not PG. : )
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Well, here's the thing. As I said, American PG. The scene I wrote you could show on braodcast TV.
As I said though, the secondary implications of the scene and what's being done... Well, yeah. :) It's a fine line.
Bull
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I'm perfectly happy mixing my euphemisms.
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I likewise prefer a mix, but to be honest I do it a little differently than most.
I take a firefly like approach to mine. Cursing with the newer SR slang is considered more acceptable and creative than using those old curses. Higher society will even use Japanese or for some odd reason French when being vulgar.
Oddly, I've actually heard people out in the real world using the old SR slang (its how I identified one of my gaming groups) and even other Sci-Fi slang (Gorram and Frailin being the most popular). Then again, you get a lot of weird customers at Walmart.
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Ironically, I think I love the old slang so much because it was reminiscent of the old Battlestar Galactica show.
Then the new show made me reminiscent about Shadowrun... ;)
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As far as impact...to say that one wishes to frag somebody else...well that implies something incredibly violent, bloody and ending in somebody no longer blowing air past their gums.
For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge...well it can be construed in a number of different ways (of which I shall not delve into). I can see where one would be more appropriate in a situation than another...so a mix might not be a bad idea.
I still don't like fragging Technomancers though. ;D
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For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge..
Why won't this urban legend die? (http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp)
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Mayhap, but it does move it closer to Battlestar Galactica, at least so I've read.
That reminds me, I STILL want a "FRAKING Toaster".
But anyway....
One of the things I like about a game is being able to immerse youself into said world. Otherwise, what really is the point of role-playing? Part of this is adopting the lexicon for whatever game you are playing. Like an actor, it helps get me "in chracter" rather than just playing another version of myself. I am glad that the old slang isn't gone because I too believe it did help set SR apart and added to the flavor like other games, Movies, and series. It's not a cop out or a way to avoid censors, it just IS.
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See for me, hmm, this is hard to explain.
I find that real curse words interfere less with my immersion. I get that frag and drek are very shadowrun. It's cute, and I'm nostalgic about it. But if I'm really in character, having to say frag and drek instead of the real thing kind of pulls me out of it, pulls me out of the dark, gritty, tough world that SR is and making me feel awkwardly like I am in some kind of kids' show.
As the poll shows, I'm in the minority here. : )
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If you do it long enough, it becomes second nature. :)
I say frag and drek in real life sometimes now. I also occasionally really confuse people and say hoop instead of ass and Ghost instead of God.
Not too often though. I swear like a sailor too. But hey... ROleplaying is all about altering your personality, sometimes. It's about doing something you don't normally do.
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In game, I tend to use a mix with an emphasis on using the older slang (mainly because I have a player that's pretty slack on learning settings or reading books....he complained about all the "fluff" in the beginning of the 20th anniversary edition book). Like Bull said, the lingo sometimes infiltrates my general speech, but that's more of my bad attempt at curbing my real swearing :-)
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For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge..
Why won't this urban legend die? (http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp)
No...it won't. :P
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Ideas... Are bulletproof. ;D
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Maybe I was the guy who started this urban legend and don't want to let go.
If I can't lecture people that we live in a fragging Republic and not a Democracy...then I am going to foist as many Urban legends on people as possible. ;)
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Um, I live in a Constitutional Monarchy with Dominion Status for the Parliamentary Democracy.
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Dude, that is such an urban legend. ;D
Anyway, being guilty of derailing a thread I return you to the topic at hand.
I amend my vote...to a mix. Although I would still tend to give more weight to the old slang (not all of which is profane in nature).
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Me, I much prefer to use the old 'euphemisms' from back-when, even though I only started playing with 4A. It just lends to the feel, for me
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Which is why I'm glad we have Bull as a Shadowtalker bringing some of that back. ;D
That's right folks, Bull's bringin' sexy back to Shaodwrun. :P
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Shadowtalker? Is that like a horse whisperer or something.
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Which is why I'm glad we have Bull as a Shadowtalker bringing some of that back. ;D
That's right folks, Bull's bringin' sexy back to Shaodwrun. :P
Did you just compare Bull to Justin Timberlake?
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I'm... A little bit mortified. :)
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Shadowtalker? Is that like a horse whisperer or something.
In game quotes are called "Shadowtalk". And anyone who participates frequently gets called a "Shadowtalker". Though these days "Jackpointer" gets used more often.
Bull
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Ah I never knew those who spoke frequently in shadowtalk in the books was a shadotalker. Makes sense, just never stumbled on the term.
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Me either, I just figured one person wrote all the entries.
On the topic, thinking back, the one term I still use always from the old slang is decker. I miss them so much.
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Shadowtalker? Is that like a horse whisperer or something.
In game quotes are called "Shadowtalk". And anyone who participates frequently gets called a "Shadowtalker". Though these days "Jackpointer" gets used more often.
Bull
Jackpointer just sounds so wrong when I read it...
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Maybe Bull is the US Justin Bieber?
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I wash and wash and wash, yet I never feel clean. I feel like I'll never be clean again!!!
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Maybe Bull is the US Justin Bieber?
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I wash and wash and wash, yet I never feel clean. I feel like I'll never be clean again!!!
Serves you right
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I think I'm more like the Nerd Meatloaf. Except meatloaf is already kind of a nerd. :)
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Actually, random conversation that happened about getting revenge on someone: "Take the skull, put it in an autoclave, and use it for the main part of a pimp cup that would make Conan jealous." was my suggestion.
Also said later, "That's not the cup of a carpenter, that's the cup of the man that ****ed up the carpenter!" :P
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I think I'm more like the Nerd Meatloaf. Except meatloaf is already kind of a nerd. :)
Hmmm...an Ork Meatloaf and an Ork Elvis has been brought up....we ALMOST got a band!
"Hail to the king baby!"
8)
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I think I'm more like the Nerd Meatloaf. Except meatloaf is already kind of a nerd. :)
Hmmm...an Ork Meatloaf.......
His name was Robert 'Tusks' Paulson....
Ahem, back on point I'm a fan of the old Shadowrun vocabulary. Reason is language meaning and specifics can change greatly. Look at how much language (in particular, slang) changed between the 1920s and the 1950s. And here we have a game set in the 2070s and go with a general appearance (as of most of the 4th edition writing I've looked at) that much of the vulgar slang has reset to what was used six decades ago.
While some may take comfort in the familiarity of using current vulgar terms, I tend to find it ruins my sense of disbelief of playing in a future dystopian cyberpunk setting. Especially when you consider that almost all the swearing seen is americanized in an era where multiple languages compete for priority and new forms of communication like cityspeak have evolved into stand-alone dialects.
If anything, we should see a greater amount of new slang swearing. And at the least, more swearing adapted from Spanish, Japanese and several other languages that see as much common use as their American English counterparts.
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Slang does, however, reset. Much of the 'new' slang that my kid brother's generation uses is stuff they have unknowingly rediscovered and reused from the '70s, '80s, and '90s.
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Much like music. "Bohemian Rhapsody" by Queen was a "New Thing" to so many people after Wayne's World. Yet I had known about it for years. :p
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wayne's world, wayne's world, it's party time... :P
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I use some Shadowrun slang on some other RPG Websites myself. I support a mix of the fictional and real curse word myself.
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Slang does, however, reset. Much of the 'new' slang that my kid brother's generation uses is stuff they have unknowingly rediscovered and reused from the '70s, '80s, and '90s.
Yes, that's true. But only to an extent. You're discussing side-by-side generations. Whens the last time you referred to a know-it-all as an abercrombie or referred to a crude person as an egg? Those are eight decade differences that represent just the tiniest fraction of the differences in language in an evolving society (and that's just covering common use words, not technobabble). If we had a reset of slang in our day and age to match how far some of Shadowrun has reverted, we'd be using phrases like khaki wacky, dead hoofer, share crop, or 'Hi sugar, are you rationed?'
Admittedly, this is a much more appropriate argument if we were discussing Shadowrun losing all of its jargon like trog, chummer, etc. But I still find it odd that some writers seem to have completely rejected words like drek and frag. Events and stories in the timeline of the game have remained fairly untouched and canon, so why should some terms appear to now be scrubbed from the setting?
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The term cool, as slang, has been in use for approximately sixty years (as much as 80 depending on the meaning you use, as some meanings saw use in the 1930s) and shows no signs of stopping.
Fuck and shit on the other hand have been around at least since the early centuries of the second millennium and are clearly an unstoppable linguistic force judging by the fact that we who speak Anglo-Saxon derived languages or languages derived from those languages still use them today. Perhaps frag and drek could have been almost exclusively in vogue for a brief period centered from say approximately 2030 to 2060, but I'm not surprised to find out that the "old standards" won out in the end.
'Slang' and 'curse words' are really two separate (but related) topics.
I mean, the truth is, frag and drek were (based on my understanding) a concession to get younger players to play the game without angering moral watchdogs, whereas 'fuck and shit' were (based on my understanding) an attempt to make the game 'darker and edgier' now that the winds of moral hazard had shifted somewhat and it could be gotten away with. So any discussion of the in-universe reasons behind the alternative slang and its eventual retconning is rather specious.
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Drek also has the advantage of being a bilingual "Bad Word", IIRC... It's how they got away with some really racy cursing on Firefly/Serenity (Even if the Mandarin was butchered.).
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Frag and drek I wasn't fond of, but hoop is a nice one to keep around, as are the many vulgarities aimed at various forms of metahumanity, like trog, gobs and words of that nature. Also, who doesn't toss in bilingual curses? Lots of Japanese curses still get tossed around the table here, as well as quite a few Germanic ones. I may have to head out to one of the nicer rez's around here, and see if I can't find out some Lakotan (Sioux) curse words. Heh, pretty sure I'll get some choice ones when I start asking about the language...
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I mean, the truth is, frag and drek were (based on my understanding) a concession to get younger players to play the game without angering moral watchdogs, whereas 'fuck and shit' were (based on my understanding) an attempt to make the game 'darker and edgier' now that the winds of moral hazard had shifted somewhat and it could be gotten away with. So any discussion of the in-universe reasons behind the alternative slang and its eventual retconning is rather specious.
I'm going to agree to disagree. I don't think a complete deletion of in-universe lingo with absolutely no transition apparent (or hinted at) is a proper way to satisfy those expecting darker and edgier material. If a new season of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica were to start up and advance the story ten years, and frak was now replaced with fuck in conversation, would you be a little surprised if all the characters carried on like it had always been the word used?
To a dedicated fan of such a rich setting, I just don't see the suspension of disbelief placed solely on the shoulders of the reader for veracity of this.
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Words evolve and change. I think that SR is able to give us new words that obviously mean something without us having to say the modern equivalent. I like that. It helps remove us from the modern world, and keeps our tongues pure as virgins. OK, so maybe I'm just a loser lol. But I like it.