Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: basic on <07-16-11/1745:06>
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Me and My GM are debating if you can use Ultrasound to see thought walls. Also if I could modfi it to see thought walls if it can't do it on its normal setting.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0706-seeing_through_walls.htm
I asked because of that article.
Being that the hardware is there to see in ultrasound. I would not see to change the hardware right ? Only the software that is interpreting the data. Also should I be able to change the FQ that it puts otu to penetrate deeper so see thought thicker walls ?
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Depends on the wall, some prevent sound waves from passing through them pretty well...
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The article's talking about a radar pretty much, which does see through walls. The sensor invented (quite cool) uses radio waves, not ultrasonic pulses.
Get a radar sensor instead, and ta-da! You can see through most walls. And people.
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The article's talking about a radar pretty much, which does see through walls. The sensor invented (quite cool) uses radio waves, not ultrasonic pulses.
Get a radar sensor instead, and ta-da! You can see through most walls. And people.
My Gm's answer "only true so far. It still needs to be a specific wavelength and software. As else all radar devices would never see airplanes as the waves go through them. That means a specific wavelength must be used and a software that extrapolates the positions of the objects behind the walls (and taking possible distortions for penetrating the walls into account"
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I can agree with your GM on this. There are materials that will block certain types of scans and will allow others to penetrate. Also there will come countermeasures to this technique as soon as certain materials are found that will block this type of scan.
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What about in just a low level motel would there be stuff to stop that ? form happing there ?
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If you're talking about wavelengths that are still in the ultrasonic freq but not yet in the infrared, most construction materials will cause such reflection and refr4action that ultrasonic would be useless.
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I believe in the book it actually states that solid object (even normally transparent like glass) stop it (don't have my book on me). I remember having this same discussion with a player back in SR3. Back then in M&M Ultrasound Vision mentioned showing depth, which made him believe it could see how deep a room was through a wall. Meanwhile, I was under the impression it just meant distance from you to a target (which Ultrasound is very precise on from my understanding).
I'm going to have to agree with Onion. Without specialized equipment and programming almost anything you use to build with, or insulate with, is going to eat the ultrasound. That said, it's 62 years in the future, so its up to every GM to determine what the standard tech can do. Just remember that in everything from weapons and armor to sensors and countermeasures, when one advances so does its counter.
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If you're talking about wavelengths that are still in the ultrasonic freq but not yet in the infrared, most construction materials will cause such reflection and refr4action that ultrasonic would be useless.
ARGH. Sound waves are NOT part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
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True, but sound waves have their own issues.
When talking about Ultrasound you basically run into the issue of Resolution vs. Penetration. Ultrasound mapped onto vision is most likely going to use higher frequencies (medically 2-18 MHz, but have been known to go up to 50 MHz) for the resolution it gives (being vision based, detail is key. These higher frequencies aren't going to penetrate through walls thicker than cardboard (assuming their isn't another way around, wouldn't penetrate a wall, but would go through the open door). Low frequencies would penetrate the wall, but would give a resolution that would make doom look like HD.
This is of course all my unprofessional understanding of how it works based on research during SR3, so feel free to correct.
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Yes, they are, although they are generally not created by electromagnetic phenomena. Voice Frequency is ~300 Hz - ~3kHz, art of a group known as acoustic frequencies (~20Hz - ~20kHz).
Ultrasound varies significantly. Animal ultrasound (like bats using sonar) are usually in the ~24kHz area, while diagnostic ultrasound (coincidentally made by three magnets) generally operate from 1.5MHz-10MHz with a best practice called ALARA (As Low As Reasonably Achievable). Why a low as reasonably achievable policy? Because sending high powered waveforms into objects at these frequencies literally shakes them to the core of their being and causes damage (the purpose of therapeutic ultrasound).
What are you most likely to learn with ultrasound? The contents of a mixed material container. What are you unlikely to learn, anything about what's in the air outside that container (or in an entirely air filled compartment within a container, air really wonks up industrial ultrasound).
How do I know this? Background in wired signaling, if Voice Frequencies weren't part of the electrmagnetic spectrum, your cell phone would have a hard time converting the carrier wave gibberish that it receives into voice with just a few tiny speakers and destructive interference.
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ARGH. Sound waves are NOT part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
I can confirm that. I have yet to be electrocuted by sound.
Yet.
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ARGH. Sound waves are NOT part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
I can confirm that. I have yet to be electrocuted by sound.
Yet.
Bet you haven't been electrocuted by microwaves, radar, light, or cosmic background radiation either.
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I've been electrocuted by a mangled microwave OVEN, and I'm not entirely too sure about the cosmic background radiation... But no, radar and light haven't affected me.
Light has burned the hell out of my skin, yes...
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Light has burned the hell out of my skin, yes...
Oy, tell me about it. I'm currently crippled by the number the sun did on my feet. Blistered and swollen up like foot shaped, pain filled balloons... and this is from me getting along with the sun, just picture how bad it is when we fight... (I'm beginning to think I'm in an abusive relationship with the sun).
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Ouch, must be the gamer gene in us. Last August I managed to get just under third degree burns (Doc said 85% of the way between 2nd to third) from that evil yellow orb. With sunscreen. That was of course a horrible time to find out I'm allergic to Aloe Vera.
And I vowed to never wear shorts in the sun again.
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How do I know this? Background in wired signaling, if Voice Frequencies weren't part of the electrmagnetic spectrum, your cell phone would have a hard time converting the carrier wave gibberish that it receives into voice with just a few tiny speakers and destructive interference.
Um. Sound waves are mechanical, not electromagnetic. They are vibrations in matter, more or less.
Sound waves can be TURNED into electromagnetic signals via microphones. And back via speakers. Hell, there are child's science kits that will let you build a speaker to understand how it works.
I know you've displayed a considerable amount of tech knowledge in the past, especially about communications, but you're simply wrong here.
For example, sound waves don't propagate across a vacuum. Radio waves do.
Now, sound waves can AFFECT radio waves, in the right circumstances, but they're not part of the same spectrum. They're both longitudinal waves, but again, different spectrum. Kinetic energy vs electromagnetic energy.
Radio waves ARE in the same spectrum as light and heat, though. Which brings up the question as to whether Invisibility spells should affect Radar.
-k
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None of the low end of the EM spectrum propagates through a vacuum, that threshold is well above the ultrasonic range.
Sound actually wonks up pretty niftily when dealing with vacuums. In a false vacuum (interstellar medium), sound attenuates and refracts like crazy as it loses potency within the medium (the medium is opaque). In a lab environment and a true vacuum, sound invariably reflects when it reaches the vacuum (which I suppose would mean that ultrasound would be great for detecting internal vacuums).
ELF range waveforms (also commonly debated, but never as to whether they are part of the scale or not) suffer the same limitations. With a frequency less than the native frequency of the interstellar medium and cosmic background radiation, ELF waves cannot traverse "natural vacuums" and reflect off of "true vacuums". To detect ELF, sonic, and ultrasonic waveforms across the interstellar medium a stable carrier wave is needed, and even then you'll only be able to witness the effects of interference (which will be minimal considering the scale of each waveform), similar to how a laser microphone works but over a much, much larger scale.
Edit: A barometric interferometer uses exactly the method I describe to "carry" a low frequency longitudinal wave across a vacuum. Sexy stuff, interferometry is.
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For the purposes of SR the Radar detector specifically gives rules for seeing through materials, if ultrasound could do the same it would be mentioned IMO. You would be giving one of the primary reasons to get the more expensive radar sensors away for free to the ultrasound sensors.
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Yes, they are, although they are generally not created by electromagnetic phenomena. Voice Frequency is ~300 Hz - ~3kHz, art of a group known as acoustic frequencies (~20Hz - ~20kHz).
Ultrasound varies significantly. Animal ultrasound (like bats using sonar) are usually in the ~24kHz area, while diagnostic ultrasound (coincidentally made by three magnets) generally operate from 1.5MHz-10MHz with a best practice called ALARA (As Low As Reasonably Achievable). Why a low as reasonably achievable policy? Because sending high powered waveforms into objects at these frequencies literally shakes them to the core of their being and causes damage (the purpose of therapeutic ultrasound).
What are you most likely to learn with ultrasound? The contents of a mixed material container. What are you unlikely to learn, anything about what's in the air outside that container (or in an entirely air filled compartment within a container, air really wonks up industrial ultrasound).
How do I know this? Background in wired signaling, if Voice Frequencies weren't part of the electrmagnetic spectrum, your cell phone would have a hard time converting the carrier wave gibberish that it receives into voice with just a few tiny speakers and destructive interference.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0706-seeing_through_walls.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0706-seeing_through_walls.htm)
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Basic, the summary of your link says sound waves while the narrator says radio waves... either someone has discovered a way for sound waves to NOT behave as all other sound waves do, or it's a video of a low spectrum radar in action.
Judging from the fact that the device displays no speakers, and no rod (when you create sound waves via a magnet you generally use a rod to amplify rather than a shitton of power), but does display 4 fractal antenna cases, I'd bet my firstborn on that being a low freq, MIMO radar configuration.
Probably uses cheaper parts than most radar, but still radar and not ultrasonic x-ray vision.
Edit: Put Basic's name where I had mistaken placed another poster's.
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Well could I build using the level of technology in the shadowrun world to build goggles that can see thought wall. Or Modfi stuff that currently exists to do what I want.
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Not with ultrasound you couldn't. Not unless you wanted to be shattering fragile objects somewhat by random as you panned through power settings to get to the right frequency and the right amplitude to see through a wall.
Ultrasound really, really doesn't work well in a gaseous medium. That's why ultrasound techs smear jelly on the tool and the target, for both diagnostic and therapeutic ultrasound, and industrial ultrasound takes place in empty chambers or underwater.
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You can do this with a Radar sensor. They're in Arsenal or Augmentation and probably SR4A itself these days.
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Great, now I have Radar Rider (http://youtu.be/9OhO-uikL1s) stuck in my head.
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Oy, tell me about it. I'm currently crippled by the number the sun did on my feet. Blistered and swollen up like foot shaped, pain filled balloons... and this is from me getting along with the sun, just picture how bad it is when we fight... (I'm beginning to think I'm in an abusive relationship with the sun).
I feel your pain...
I get sunburned watching fireworks...
on TV.... :P
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Bah, fireworks... They seem so lame after where I grew up. :(
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So what's the rules for seeing with radar sense? There's a table which outlines penalties for different conditions in SR4A for low light, normal, therm, and ultrasound but no such reference to radar sense. So would this just b e unaffected by light, smoke, and flare?
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Radar uses the rules for ultrasound but it can penetrate rating(1-4) x 5 of cumulative barrier structure ratings. It can also be used to detect weapons and cyber on a person like a millimeter wave radar detector.
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Oy, tell me about it. I'm currently crippled by the number the sun did on my feet. Blistered and swollen up like foot shaped, pain filled balloons...
Sounds like a job for Aloe Vera.
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On a separate note, would ultrasound be able to tell the difference between a solid wall and a section with a void on the other side. Basically finding hidden doors by telling the difference in the sound that comes back?
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*warning shameless SR advertisement follows*
In Spy Game on page 150 there is a whole section (Surveillance) on just this topic. What you are looking for is something to generate and detect Terahertz waves, that nifty bit of the spectrum that straddles waves and particles. 8)
I should add that I saw an incredible material that is now available for soundproofing, flexible, thin, and the demo I saw on tv put me in a stunned...silence. ;)
Tomorrow I will look it up and post it.
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*warning shameless SR advertisement follows*
In Spy Game on page 150 there is a whole section (Surveillance) on just this topic. What you are looking for is something to generate and detect Terahertz waves, that nifty bit of the spectrum that straddles waves and particles. 8)
I should add that I saw an incredible material that is now available for soundproofing, flexible, thin, and the demo I saw on tv put me in a stunned...silence. ;)
Tomorrow I will look it up and post it.
... sitting here quietly, biting my tongue... is that blood I taste? ;)
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@Teknodragon
No, really there is a section in Spy Games devoted to Terahertz wave tech and how they have the ability to see through certain materials, including a single wall. :)
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@John
I know about the section, it is the description of the terahertz waves that makes me want to cringe and/or rant, as I already did elsewhere in the product release thread.
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@John
I know about the section, it is the description of the terahertz waves that makes me want to cringe and/or rant, as I already did elsewhere in the product release thread.
You mean where you said...
"I have a serious urge to slap the writer"
I am going to take the leap of faith that the aforementioned statement was hyperbole on your part as it would otherwise be a violation of ToS for this forum. If the original poster wants to see through a single wall and clothing then they want terahertz goggles. :)
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Yes, it was a poor choice of words for hyperbole, which I used without thought. My apologies; I will try to be more considerate in the future. Again, my apologies.
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Yes, it was a poor choice of words for hyperbole, which I used without thought. My apologies; I will try to be more considerate in the future. Again, my apologies.
As a Supervisor once told me: "Less threatening bodily harm on people in public, please. That causes distress." :P
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Yes, threaten mental harm instead. ;D
I'm not actually asking about "seeing" through walls. I'm thinking more of showing thickness of the wall. Ultrasound is sound based and (from my rough understanding) works off of reading the echo. What I was wondering is if the ultrasound would show the difference between a eight inch thick section of wall and a four inch thick section of wall. I mean, we can tell the difference between sounds when knocking on said walls, so it made me wonder.
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Yes, threaten mental harm instead. ;D
Actually, that's what I thought I was doing when I said "Beat the stupid out of those...", and a bunch of words I shouldn't say in a public forum. :P
I was venting steam and would never have verbally or physically abused the callers who talked to me for tech support.
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Ah, tech support. Who hasn't offered three hundred and fifty seven ways to help the people calling in that can't figure out that the monitor has a separate power button. I find it sad that while working tech support at a college the most common issues were (in this order):
-Not Plugged In
-Not Turned On (Yes I'm serious)
-Monitor Not Turned On
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Try working with the public and include "Did not pay the bill" and then have to go through each and every charge on the account, even stuff that isn't even connected to the Internet.
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Oh trust me I understand. I work in an automotive shop now and I can't count how many times someone has come in asking me to put their air filter in and then proceeded to hand me an oil filter.
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@Teknodragon Seriously don't sweat it. Text based communications lack tone and context, which are pretty essential to any meaningful dialog. In a perfect world my writing efforts would result in piles of cash arriving at regular intervals along with sacks of fan mail...I don't hold out much hope for that happening though. :o
@Crash_00 I get what you are asking and I would defer to others that have a better understanding of that subject. As a GM I would say that an interior motel wall is going to be drywall and 2x4 hemp studs and that would be common knowledge.
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@Teknodragon Seriously don't sweat it. Text based communications lack tone and context, which are pretty essential to any meaningful dialog. In a perfect world my writing efforts would result in piles of cash arriving at regular intervals along with sacks of fan mail...I don't hold out much hope for that happening though. :o
There needs to be a sarcasm font. Or an emotional font, period, come to think of it. Until we get DNIs and can add an emotional resonance to our comments...
@Crash_00 I get what you are asking and I would defer to others that have a better understanding of that subject. As a GM I would say that an interior motel wall is going to be drywall and 2x4 hemp studs and that would be common knowledge.
Heh, two pieces of drywall and some studs, if you're lucky! Some motels I've been stuck at have had thinner walls than that. >:(
Don't even get me started on Dad's tales of crappy places, either. (He was a long-distance truck driver for far too many years, and was really, really happy when he got his own rig with a bunk!)