Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: gourry187 on <06-25-11/1401:45>
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So the other players and I are trying to come up with our Fake SINs when it was brought up . . .
exactly what is in you SIN? For that matter, when someone accesses your profile (via AR or VR) what information is listed?
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Spy Games, Page 143 shows exactly what's in a Fake SIN.
What's revealed to a person when they scan someone's SIN is based on their level of access. A Peace Officer will get more info than John Q. Wageslave, for instance.
Most likely, the average person or store will get a name, address, CommCode (Phone Number for the CommLink), a message going "This person has a legitimate SIN", and any messages mandated by law (Such as "This Person Is A Sex Offender").
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Most likely, the average person or store will get a name, address, CommCode (Phone Number for the CommLink), a message going "This person has a legitimate SIN", and any messages mandated by law (Such as "This Person Is A Sex Offender").
Unless you've really pissed off a good hacker lately... then they are more likely to get name, address, commcode, a message stating "This SIN is fake and should be reported to law enforcement instantly", a list of various non-humanoids you've had relations with, a list of people willing to pay for the SIN owners organs, and an indexed report of why the law enforcement officials who will soon be scanning this should make your life a living hell...
Maybe I've been reading too much BOFH lately lol
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So the other players and I are trying to come up with our Fake SINs when it was brought up . . .
exactly what is in you SIN? For that matter, when someone accesses your profile (via AR or VR) what information is listed?
I think it depends on who is asking and how deep they are looking. If you go to Stuffer Shack and buy a Double Thick Plum Smushie the clerk gets a comcode and a verficication the funds have transfered. If a Knight Errant officer scans you they get the eqivelent of looking at a real world ID: Name, registered address, basic biometrics, and special licenses you have like firearms or restricted cyberware. If there is a reason to look deeper he can run it through a verification system that starts checking various databases to make sure you are a real person. Do you pay your taxes? Are there education/military/employment/criminal records on you? Outstanding warrents? Etc. Bascially the better the fake Sin the more of this information has been fabricated, and the more authenic it looks if somone checks it out.
RAW, the test to see if a fake SIN or other fake document passes verification is an opposed test, the rating of the SIN/ID vs the rating of the Verification system. The problem with this is that even a fairly good fake will get broken fairly quickly it it is checked often. An alternative house rule I have seen suggested is to used twice the rating of the verification system against a threshold of the rating of the fake SIN. This way low end fakes are fairly easy to crack, but a good one (say level four or better) can stand up to typical checks.
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exactly what is in you SIN?
Afaik, a SIN is a only number (not alphanumerical anymore, but still a number). The number itself contains not many informations - the import point are the entries in various databases that are linked to this number. This is why different people get different things to see: A shop owner simply hasn't got access to the databases where the person's criminal history is stored - a cop has. A shop can only ask the official SIN registry, if the person who uses the SIN really is the owner (by verifying fingerprint, etc.).
For a stuffer shack, much more important than the SIN verification is the response from the bank ("Transfer of x Nuyen done."). Of course, they will check the SIN, too, if something bad happens (in case of fraud, etc.), but the money transfer will probably be much more important than the level 1 SIN verification enforced by the shop's insurance company.
And yes, I like the scanner level x 2 (Threshold Fake SIN Level) house rule, makes much more sense. With the other rule, it's much too random.
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A SIN is a Number. That's all. You might be able to tell some things from the number depending on how the number is generated.
Identity Checks
- LEO asks SINner for SIN
- SINner hands it over
- LEO queries various data systems for data associated with that SIN
- For example they may get back basic data such as metatype, age, etc, which they can then match with what they see in front of them.
- LEO makes decision based on match
LEO gets SIN from SINner + thumbprint
LEO sends SIN and Thumbprint to ARES data source and asks if they match.
ARES data systems can have the following results
- No SIN found
- SIN found with no thumbprint match
- SIN and thumbprint match
- SIN not found but thumbprint matches a different SIN
ARES data system can answer as appropriate, it may simply give a YES/NO, or more details depending on who is asking.
Financial Transaction
- SINNer gives account authorization + SIN(If required, some accounts will not require a SIN to use, think numbered accounts)
- Shop sends account authorization and SIN
- Bannk verifies match
- Bank conducts transaction
The specifics of responses will vary, but will follow the general pattern collecting information, sending it to be verified, and getting a result back. the responses can be detailed, and the action performed after the response will vary, that's where you can have fun.
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One problem that's often mentioned is: If you have two fake SINs - why don't both show up as soon as the cops take your fingerprints?
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One problem that's often mentioned is: If you have two fake SINs - why don't both show up as soon as the cops take your fingerprints?
Easy. the cops don't usually hit all systems. They will hit the common ones, or the ones they normally have access to.
If it's a person in front of them and they claim to be an Ares SINner and give a thumbprint the LEO will probably query the ARES system. They don't find a "duplicate" because they are only checking one system.
If the LEO is running a thumbprint from a crime scene, they may be only able to query their own system, or the local jurisdiction. For example in Seattle a KE officer might be able to query the local Seattle Metroplex system, UCAS, and possibly have access to ARES because of their ties to the megacorp. The thumbprint may be in "duplicated' by being in both Seattle Metroplex and Horizon, but Horizon isn't available to the KE Officer. In addition to that, the Horizon system might only offer a service to verify a thumbprint if both a Thumbprint and a SIN are provided. From a crime scene they might have only the thumbprint.
The KE Officer doesn't have access to all the identity systems they can check against in order to find that "duplicate".
The SIN while a universal number, is only to ensure a unique key across systems for verification purposes, it doesn't guarantee universal access to all data related to that SIN across all systems.
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That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.
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That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.
Duplicates maybe, but you could easily have different identities and some fake id.
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That implies that you only can have one fake SIN from every country, but you can never have two UCAS SINs, for example.
ARES
SIN 1 + Thumbprint 1
SIN 2 + Thumbprint 1
SIN 3 + Thumbprint 1
If the Question sent to the data(aka Verification) system is, "Do Thumbprint 1 and SIN 1 belong together?" The response is Yes. This will also work for the other combinations.
If the the system is asked "What SIN belongs to Thumbprint 1?" You will get 3 SINs. Obviously a problem.
If the System is asked, "What Thumbprint belongs to SIN 1?" You'll get thumbprint 1 . Not immediately a problem.
A verification system is likely to ask one of those questions, with the first one the most likely.
The entire set of available data is not made available at the device dedicated to specific requests. So while it would be quite clear to a dedicated analyst looking at all the information that there are some discrepancy, it is not immediately apparent for a standard verification protocol.
Do you have a Debit Card? When you go to the grocery store or the ATM, do you think your entire account details and transaction history are sent to that little card reader and touch screen? Is it necessary for most transactions that all that data is sent there? Is it even desirable? Part of your account details will contain a lot of your personal information, when all that is needed by the Grocery store or ATM is simply confirmation that the money is available for the transaction. That KE/LS officer with the SINner in front of them is simply looking a quick answer to see if there is a reason to proceed with detaining or moving on to the next item. BTW, that's how most of the current Law Enforcement data systems work. Field queries are simple systems. It's only in the office where dedicated analysts and investigators are that they go any deeper.
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We're talking about Shadowrunners. ONE Fingerprint left on a run - all your SINs are suddenly dead?
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Just because something is possible does not mean it always happens.
I've already pointed out that it all depends on what questions are asked and if all data is made available and if the connections are made.
Whether or not it happens is up to you in your game. You can choose to make it impossible to play or not depending on your interpretations of the possible outcomes. I've merely explained the ranges of actions and possibilities to account for the fact that it is possible for Runners to easily get by verification checks just as easily as they can be caught if enough effort is made.
I run my game. Decide if Dice Test is warranted, Make Dice test. Use understanding of basics of process to explain/justify results.
I don't model my understanding of the SR universe on the game mechanics. The game mechanics are for story and conflict resolution, not a model world simulation.
In order for runners to be caught all the time on leaving a single piece of evidence there would need to be an additional set of conditions, infinite resources and infinite willingness to use them. If you are assuming that, then you may as well not play SR.
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sorry, wrong (new) thread.
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http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4020.0
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That's one of the reasons to keep the body count low. If you start slaughtering every guard and janitor you meet in a corp, they will allocate more resources to find you and at that point these discrepancies will show up.
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Sometimes, it seems to me, that the whole SIN concept in Shadowrun is unclear at best, perhaps even nonsense at some points. For example, Spy Games states, that a rating 1 SIN has no confirming databases. But honestly, why is it worth 1.000¥ then? A random number? Every monkey can make up a number by randomly pressing keys. Imho, the important things ARE the databases. Higher SINs also have optional data connected to them, for example blog postings, indicating that the person behind the SIN really exists, that makes sense, but the basic thing should be the question "Is this SIN stored in the government's database?".
It also seems unclear, if the designers meant for a SIN to be variable. I think, that a SIN (the number, not the Identity often also called "SIN") should never, ever change. It's a primary key, modifying it in any way doesn't make any sense. Either every database every storing this SIN has to be updated as well or the old SIN has to stay valid, too, then it would be possible to use the SIN variant I currently prefer.
Also, the Criminal SIN thing. Some people seem to read into the rules, that normal citizens can get their SIN marked as criminal, but the rules also give SINless people a criminal SIN, if they commit a crime. But these people can't, of course, get citizenship through this criminal SIN, as otherwise, every SINless person would only need to commit one theft to become a citizen. So a criminal SIN can only indicate, that the person isn't a citizen, but was assigned a criminal SIN for storing his data.
Or the SIN checks, beside the fact, that a 1-6 vs. 1-6 check is too random, I often hear, that people think, that every store checks your SIN. But that would make the SIN databases totally public - including foreign ones. Every chinese store owner can access the american SIN registry. And what for? A typical store doesn't care if the SIN is legit, if someone buys a coke. The store only cares if the bank says "Ok, money transfered". So personally, I think, for a store, a valid bank account is 1.000 times more important than the SIN. The typical store can safely assume, that the bank that sends the money has already validated the SIN of the bank account owner.
When buying something with a licence, yes, then the store needs to validate it, of course. But for a coke?
Am I the only one a little bit confused about the whole thing?
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After reading over it again and again I think I found the main problem: The term "criminal SIN" is used in two contexts. First, as a term for the negative quality, meaning a SINner with a criminal record. And second, when talking about what happens to SINless people who get arrested for commiting a crime. Imho, the error here is to use the same term for both of them.
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We're talking about Shadowrunners. ONE Fingerprint left on a run - all your SINs are suddenly dead?
This is why all Shadowrun getaway procedure should include leaving fake fingerprints all over the place. If only for the looks on the Forensic Guys faces when they match one such fingerprint with Damien Knight. Or someone equally ridiculous.
Irian: But walking around without a SIN is a crime. At least as I understand it.
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If you're a SINner and you commit a crime, you get a criminal SIN. If your are sinless and you commit a crime, you get a criminal SIN. Same term, because its the same thing. I always took it to mean that if you already have a SIN, its marked as criminal and if you are a SINless you merely get a SIN that marks you a criminal. The other data in the SIN would determine citizenship, ect.
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Or the SIN checks, beside the fact, that a 1-6 vs. 1-6 check is too random, I often hear, that people think, that every store checks your SIN. But that would make the SIN databases totally public - including foreign ones. Every chinese store owner can access the american SIN registry. And what for? A typical store doesn't care if the SIN is legit, if someone buys a coke. The store only cares if the bank says "Ok, money transfered". So personally, I think, for a store, a valid bank account is 1.000 times more important than the SIN. The typical store can safely assume, that the bank that sends the money has already validated the SIN of the bank account owner.
When buying something with a licence, yes, then the store needs to validate it, of course. But for a coke?
Am I the only one a little bit confused about the whole thing?
I think the simple answer might be 'the future is a crazy place.' Now for the complicated part.
Its a tough world and the Megas pretty much determine the rules (Yes, UCAS instituted SINS, but when was the last time you saw politicians make policy without lobbyists and special interests hiding somewhere in their closet).
Now lets look at that coke. Society in Shadowrun is much more stratified and code enforced that what we deal with today. If you slot a certified credstick at the local Stuffer Shack, the coke is yours no hassle. That's so long as you're not trying to buy that coke in an upscale district (where you probably won't find a Stuffer Shack anyways). The same is likely going to hold true if you use a low rating fake SIN at the Shack (as its not going to have much of a verification rating).
But you're asking for why. Lets assume that in Shadowrun times whenever someone were to use a credit/debit transaction the automated system always wants to see the purchaser's identification (kind of like it used to be for us before retail went soft and simply wanted to get their money without worrying where it was coming from). If you wonder why they want to know who you are, you have to remember your important to them- spending habits, locations, etc equals marketing data that someone will use to make more money. For this reason alone its worth them designing 'the system' to always ask for your ID.
So buying that Coke is just as important to the data collectors as buying that new Predator IV to generate spending data. Which I guess isn't really that complicated after all. ;)
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Almost forgot to add- the SIN is not a random number. The "actual numbers that compose a SIN are generated by a complex formula from several pieces of personal data." SR4a p.266
So those numbers include code that says your birthdate, state or country of origin, citizenship (if you have one) and your initials. And that's whats there before you even get in to what Spy Games lists as included in a rating 1 or higher fake ID.
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Irian: But walking around without a SIN is a crime. At least as I understand it.
Depends on the country.
UCAS SINless are "Probationary Citizens" and have "Some" rights. But certain areas require that you broadcast your SIN in order to gain access (Malls, for example), so they're not allowed due to a bylaw. Also, the requirement a lot of places have on wireless credit transfers as the purchasing norm, not even working with certified credsticks any more, prevent them from being able to buy anything (No SIN, no bank account. It's not discrimination, it's a taxation law that the banks are required to follow.).
Some countries (I'm looking at you, Aztlan!), you're just a non-citizen period, and if someone shoots you in broad daylight, the worst they can get arrested for is "Discharge of a firearm" and "Endangering the Public", as the bullet might have gone through the SINless guy and hit an actual citizen.
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UCAS SINless are "Probationary Citizens" and have "Some" rights.
The "Probationary citizens" things was all around in previous editions, but it disappeared with the Fourth Edition. The corebook says not having a SIN is illegal (SR4, page 38 and SR4A, page 41), which I suppose should apply in the defaull, Seattle, UCAS-setting.
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Ah, that might have changed after the SINless Amnesty that happened just after Crash 2.0, and most SINless didn't hear about until AFTER it was over.
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Before the Crash, the Haeffner administration launched a large SIN issue. In his 2062 State of the Union Address (in Shadows of North America), Haeffner announced as much as 300,000 probationary citizens (SINless) were made full citizens (SINner) and that the program would continue.
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And then got shot in the face with a classic Ares Predator, and it got blamed on nationalist extremists.
So may or may not be continuing.
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Way I read it, if you're SINless, you're SOL for the time being. If you couldn't be bothered to show up early for the SIN Amnesty Program, then we can't be bothered with giving you a SIN. Go turn yourself in, get a Criminal SIN, and while you are "housed" in ACHE, you can begin the process of naturalization. Not that hard....
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Military Service might be one way to get a SIN (I think I remember reading about how enlistment agencies had to move in Seattle to the Barrens as SINless couldn't ride busses any longer.).
But, as for the SIN Amnesty, I see it as a major vote production line for various PoliClubs, with their extremist members ensuring that "The Right Kind Of People" got those precious SINs (And would later vote the way they wanted to.).
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In my world (which is far from canon in many ways) I've always given a valid UCAS/CAS SIN for a full twenty year military career by a SINless. Until that point they have a probationary SIN which is slightly more useful than a refugee SIN but requires all actions tied to the SIN reported back to the military.
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Also, I wrote as part of Pup the Dog Shaman's storyline that he would have gotten a SIN had he stayed in the legitimate orphanage for a certain length of time, or had been adopted.
As he ran away with his "Sister", the orphanage just collects on his "still being there", and he'll have "Run off" a week or so before the SIN is activated...
Purely my idea, I will admit.
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I don't know about the orphanage part (I could see it both ways depending on where the orphanage is located), but I definitely think that the adoption what absolutely have to come with a SIN. I could see Ares, Lone Star and several Military and Mercenary groups recruiting SINless straight out of orphanages though.
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UCAS SINless are "Probationary Citizens" and have "Some" rights.
The "Probationary citizens" things was all around in previous editions, but it disappeared with the Fourth Edition. The corebook says not having a SIN is illegal (SR4, page 38 and SR4A, page 41), which I suppose should apply in the defaull, Seattle, UCAS-setting.
Probationary Citizenship is still in 4th edition. p.258 SR4 and p.266 SR4A. Second sentence into 'What's In A SIN?'
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Ah, IIRC (Now that it's kicked my head a bit), it's illegal to be in CERTAIN PLACES without a SIN, but not because you don't have a SIN, but because you're not TRANSMITTING your SIN.
It's a difference, but it splits the legal hair to not be "Legally Discriminatory".
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And pretty much ensures that johnny law will spin your SINless status to whatever suits their interests at the time :D
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"We can pretty much close the case on every unsolved murder in this town, nice job boys!" "Don't I get a call to my lawyer?" "You watch too many movies."