Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paeniteo Azrael on <06-17-11/1739:37>
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I tried to use the search function to see if there was a topic about this... but I kinda failed.
Anyways: So I see Omae used as flavor text in Shadowrun, but I'm not a huge fan of it. WIth my (limited) knowledge of Japanese, I happen to know its a fairly offensive word in the Japanese language (the going usage is, if you're not Japanese or are a woman you have no business using that word), so whenever I GM I tend to ask players not to use it, and as a player I never use it. I was wondering what other people's opinion about the word are...
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Probably a corruption of the usage of the word. Hell, but the 2050s and later, people might have "Reclaimed" the term Gaijin. :P
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Umm... maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Omae simply an informal version of "You"?
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Umm... maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Omae simply an informal version of "You"?
Not quite.... It literally translates to "you" but its considered quite rude and offensive. For example, Anata is the more polite way of saying you (though its still kind of rude to say you in Japanese). Otaku was originally the only truly polite way to say you in Japanese. Omae and Ore are exceptionally rude, and saying it to a Japanese person will almost certainly annoy them and make them think you're rude (MUCH more so if you're gaijin.) It would be more accurate to translate it as hey asshole, as opposed to you.
That being said, it is occasionally used amongst very close friends or lovers, and only by men.
On an unrelated note, those damn captchas are impossible to read.
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Umm... maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Omae simply an informal version of "You"?
Not quite.... It literally translates to "you" but its considered quite rude and offensive. For example, Anata is the more polite way of saying you (though its still kind of rude to say you in Japanese). Otaku was originally the only truly polite way to say you in Japanese. Omae and Ore are exceptionally rude, and saying it to a Japanese person will almost certainly annoy them and make them think you're rude (MUCH more so if you're gaijin.) It would be more accurate to translate it as hey asshole, as opposed to you.
That being said, it is occasionally used amongst very close friends or lovers, and only by men.
On an unrelated note, those damn captchas are impossible to read.
Wouldn't you expect a bunch of criminal sociopaths that shoot people in the face for cash to call each other something rude?
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Wouldn't you expect a bunch of criminal sociopaths that shoot people in the face for cash to call each other something rude?
I suppose, I just find it mildly annoying hearing it in places it shouldn't be used. Its odd and jarring to me, which is why I dislike it. But I merely started this thread to find others opinions of the word, so its nice to hear them :P
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Wouldn't you expect a bunch of criminal sociopaths that shoot people in the face for cash to call each other something rude?
I suppose, I just find it mildly annoying hearing it in places it shouldn't be used. Its odd and jarring to me, which is why I dislike it. But I merely started this thread to find others opinions of the word, so its nice to hear them :P
Well, think about the word "Nigger" and the difference between what it means in Dublin and Harlem (And what Irishmen should be careful saying such things in Harlem!). :P Things change depending on the local and cultural impetus.
Also, I've seen it mostly used in Seattle. Most likely it's a Japanese Loanword used in Seattle's streetspeak that was gotten because the Salary-men from the Japana-Corps kept calling people on the street that, which, would you say, is the proper usage of the word? (After all, you're not about to be polite to a street punk, right?).
Finally, well, rule of cool. Omae is easy for Gaijin to say, and sounds like something that would creep into the jargon, savvy, my droogs?
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Huh. That explains some of the undertones in the flavor text where the word omae is used. The speaker is either a very, very good friend, or is being heavily sarcastic.
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Basically SR1 had a slang list which included some poorly translated/bad context Japanese words because in the late 80s, knowing a word of two of Japanese was cool and stuff.
Then FFXI came along and we learned better, because being able to fake being Japanese was key to getting good groups in the early days.
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Interesting, I didn't know that the word was possibly offensive.
But these things are complex. Consider the word "nigger". American society is crazy about it, you can't use it in any pubic way. We can't even use the word to talk about the word, is so "offensivie" its often refered to as "the N word". But I have been around black people who quite litteraly say nigger every thrid word out of their mouth. They can't form a sentence without it.
At the same time, if I walked up to the same guy, who has said "nigger" fifty times in the last fifty minutes and said "hey nigger hows it going" I am going to get punched in the face. Why? Im a white guy.
As far as 6th World usage, its a loan word and has changed from the original meaning. Sort of like street samurai. Ronin would be a much better term, as Samurai are are bound by oaths of loyalty, and basically company men.
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*Coughs and points up about the word "Nigger"*
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*Coughs and points up about the word "Nigger"*
If you want me to read you stuff CanRay you need to use bigger font. I am usually drinking by mid morning.
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*Coughs and points up about the word "Nigger"*
If you want me to read you stuff CanRay you need to use bigger font. I am usually drinking by mid morning.
*Coughs and emphatically points up about the word "Nigger"*
Better?
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Oh my. Thats some big font.
Interesting discussion btw, especially being drunk by mid-morning :P
Bloody Mary's and Screwdrivers getting to you? :P
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Bloody Mary's and Screwdrivers getting to you? :P
< CaptainJackSparrow >Bloody Mary's for everybody!< /CaptainJackSparrow >
Well, the sun is over the yardarm somewhere in the world...
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*Coughs and points up about the word "Nigger"*
If you want me to read you stuff CanRay you need to use bigger font. I am usually drinking by mid morning.
*Coughs and emphatically points up about the word "Nigger"*
Better?
lol now that I would definately have read
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Fo Shizzle?
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As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!
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I intended to only post about it once. I'm done now.
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I've used omae a fair amount when in Japan, and no one seems to take offence. It is more like saying 'homie'. It is a vulgar pronoun and you wouldn't say it in a proper context. Among runners, there wouldn't be a problem.
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As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!
See what I mean. Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out. You can't even say the word to talk about the word. A media figure can destroy their career over this word.
But black people can be "street' and say it 50 times in five minutes if they want to, refering to themselves, other black people present, and black people in general. And no one seems to mind that. BS like that makes me crazy. If its a fighting insult and unfit for civilized society I really shouldn't have to listen to it for an hour on the bus on the way home from some black guy who would turn around and use it to get me fired if I called him that at work.
Hypocracy and double standards piss me off.
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Could a Black Irish get away with it? :P
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If so, can I? I'm part Irish (I'm sure it's "Black Irish" as my mom and grandpa had stark black hair).
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Apparently I have been "doing it wrong" for 20+ years........ When I read a SR novel or sourcebook where they use Omae, I always thought it was used the way Gambit of the x-men used it, lol. Now that I think about it though I should have been thinking "japaneese" rather than "Cajun" ><
-Dodger
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See what I mean. Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out. You can't even say the word to talk about the word. A media figure can destroy their career over this word.
But black people can be "street' and say it 50 times in five minutes if they want to, refering to themselves, other black people present, and black people in general. And no one seems to mind that. BS like that makes me crazy. If its a fighting insult and unfit for civilized society I really shouldn't have to listen to it for an hour on the bus on the way home from some black guy who would turn around and use it to get me fired if I called him that at work.
Hypocracy and double standards piss me off.
Regarding the poster above me (not quoted) its not enormously wrong, I suppose, I just wouldn't find hearing a non-Japanese person using it alright (and I myself am Irish, so not a drop of the Japanese in me).
Regarding quoted poster, I agree with this, to an extent. I have, on several occasions, used the n-word with some of my black friends jokingly (I've said some pretty racy stuff before) but they all know its in good fun, and so are more than o.k. with it. I have a personal issue with the over-use (ESPECIALLY online) of the word faggot or "that's so gay" or "don't be Jew," not because of the words themselves (seriously, nothing wrong with words) but their intent. It is the same as telling someone "don't be such a n-word," which everyone would agree in those situations would not be morally right to say, yet they insist on equating homosexuality or being born in a Judaic culture or some similar thing with negativity. There's a double standard if you want one. (The reason I hate Eminem: He refuses to use the n-word because he thinks its offensive, but will throw faggot in every other sentence while rapping and not think a thing about it.)
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In this overly politically correct world we live in (And it's worse in Canada, trust me!), almost any phrase can be taken the wrong way.
Hell, watch the original Boondock Saints, and you'll get a scene right at the beginning of how thin-skinned people are getting.
Is it good such racial slurs are going away? Yes. Should they be as dramatically attacked? Well, it's equally offensive to punch someone in the face for a phrase that's been in the local lexicon for the last few generations. Time and patience.
Of course, it helps that the worst thing that can be thrown at me culturally without knowing me well is "Canuck"... So I might be biased in some way to this.
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In this overly politically correct world we live in (And it's worse in Canada, trust me!), almost any phrase can be taken the wrong way.
Hell, watch the original Boondock Saints, and you'll get a scene right at the beginning of how thin-skinned people are getting.
Is it good such racial slurs are going away? Yes. Should they be as dramatically attacked? Well, it's equally offensive to punch someone in the face for a phrase that's been in the local lexicon for the last few generations. Time and patience.
Of course, it helps that the worst thing that can be thrown at me culturally without knowing me well is "Canuck"... So I might be biased in some way to this.
Of course phrases can be taken in the wrong way, but a good portion of people are at least fair when it comes to intuiting the intent behind a word. Negative connotations or an intent to insult are quite bad, and of course, deserving of a punch in the face and a kick to the stomach. Joking intentions, while occasionally misguided, are generally benign and need only perhaps a bit better instruction of the use of such terms in jokes. Also, derailed, totally.
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The word isn't half as insulting as seeing people arguing and bitching over the fact that they "don't get to say nigger."
::)
Feel free. Any time you'd be comfortable calling someone motherfucker, just sub nigger on in there. You have my permission.
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Of course, it helps that the worst thing that can be thrown at me culturally without knowing me well is "Canuck"... So I might be biased in some way to this.
I prefer Canuckian, myself. Has a whole host of Candian-Specific Racial Slurs imbedded in it. Of course, only *I* know what those are. :)
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Canuckistan? :P
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As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!
See what I mean. Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out. You can't even say the word to talk about the word. A media figure can destroy their career over this word.
That was not freaking out and this is not your second day on the internet. There are certain =minimum= standards of behavior required here. If somebody repeatedly dropped the 'F' bomb here without adding to the discussion I would say something. It isn't that I am a prude...simply a bare =minimum= standard of conduct on a company website.
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As for the repeated posting of the 'N' word. Enough of it already!
See what I mean. Even when not used in any insulting or hostile way it freaks people out. You can't even say the word to talk about the word. A media figure can destroy their career over this word.
That was not freaking out and this is not your second day on the internet. There are certain =minimum= standards of behavior required here. If somebody repeatedly dropped the 'F' bomb here without adding to the discussion I would say something. It isn't that I am a prude...simply a bare =minimum= standard of conduct on a company website.
I don't want to get on the bad side of the ban stick here, considering you are mod and all, but you are making my point for me. It was a conversation about the complexity of using certain words in our society. We didn't insult anyone. We certainly didn't do anything "racist". Just the appearance the word made you uncomfortable because you have been conditioned that is a horrible, horrible word to say. But if you come to my home town and spend any time on the number 72 bus you will hear black people, who should be the most offended at the world, use it constantly, and I mean constantly, to refer to themselves, each other, and black people in general. They seem fine with it, but if I say it I start a fight, probably could get fired at work, and attract the attention of a moderator on the website. Doesn't that seem weird to you? It seems weird to me. And I think it is something that can/should be talked about. Ok, maybe not on a RPG board, but in our society.
But we can't talk about it. Its an utterly taboo subject. You can't even bring it up. You get accused of being a racist (not saying anyone did here, but it happens) if you call black people on this particular behavior. And certainly not all black people, I know. I doubt Dr. Gates at Harvard uses the N work much with his black students. But the young black men on the 72 line certainly do. Yet they would be the first to claim they were being targeted by hate speech if I used the word to refer to them. Despite they fact they 30 seconds before they used the word to refer to themselves. Such is the fantastic, illogical, double standard world we live in, where the worst possible crime is offending someone.
To tie this rant back to the original thread, Omae may very well work the same way in game. Its an in group/out group thing. Certain people can call you Omae, certain people can't. Using it when you shouldn't might get you busted in the chops, or worse. And to make matters worse, it is probably used sarcastically as well, by someone who has the "right" to use the word to someone who doesn't, in front of others who do. Sort of like calling someone who isn't your homie "homie" to emphasize the face that they are not, in fact, your homie.
Language is a fickle mistress.
By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products. Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard. You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them? I would spend some time thinking about that one.
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By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products. Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard. You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them? I would spend some time thinking about that one.
These forums are a public area, and, as such, need to be held to a higher standard than written work when it comes to "Family Friendly" situations.
As the "Offended" party, I have no issues with having been smacked down as such. Basically, it's the Internet, there's children here, and if parents have an issue about what their kids read in books, they should be taking more of an issue in what they're buying and reading, damnit. Harder to do on the Internet, considering how prevalent it's getting in households.
And the fact that a lot of parents are still of the, "I barely know how to use the this mouse thingie." stage of technological adoption. Give it another Generation.
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By the way John, your comment on the F bomb, your company uses it in flavor text in your gaming products. Being uncomfortable with it on your website would be another massive double standard. You want to be "edgy" and all that with your gaming products, but you wouldn't accept the same language to discuss them? I would spend some time thinking about that one.
These forums are a public area, and, as such, need to be held to a higher standard than written work when it comes to "Family Friendly" situations.
As the "Offended" party, I have no issues with having been smacked down as such. Basically, it's the Internet, there's children here, and if parents have an issue about what their kids read in books, they should be taking more of an issue in what they're buying and reading, damnit. Harder to do on the Internet, considering how prevalent it's getting in households.
And the fact that a lot of parents are still of the, "I barely know how to use the this mouse thingie." stage of technological adoption. Give it another Generation.
And minors don't play RPGs? Hey, its not that I want the forums to become a pit of profanity, I don't, but I am saying that if the editorial standards of the company are that you can put that word in a fictional character's mouth and publish it I don't think that you can argue too much that you are going to offend the very same group of people by using it on a forum. This is a niche gaming forum. The people who buy the books are going to be one ones posting and reading here, and the game developers think that the word is ok for the people who buy the books. If anything, I bet they thought it was GOOD for sales to use a little salty language, make the game "edgy" and to stand out from the pack. But now that we have your $20 for the pdf please don't use the same word here, you might offend someone.
Just saying, good for the goose good for the gander.
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Just to let you know, we (the moderators) were watching this thread carefully once the word showed up. We were VERY proud that the discussion was not degenerating like similar discussions have in the past. However, we also had to look at how some individual posts, taken out of context from the discussion, may have led a new reader/poster on the forums to be offended if they only skimmed the thread and didn't read the entire content.
I, personally, think you're doing a fine job discussing the issue, but I agree with John that repeated use of the word is not necessary for the discussion. We're pretty relaxed on the use some "vulgar" language on these boards, because it's not overly abused. In this case, the word being discussed was starting to be used more than necessary in regards to the discussion at hand, so John asked to cease use of the word, while encouraging discussion of the nature of the vulgarity.
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I, personally, think you're doing a fine job discussing the issue, but I agree with John that repeated use of the word is not necessary for the discussion. We're pretty relaxed on the use some "vulgar" language on these boards, because it's not overly abused. In this case, the word being discussed was starting to be used more than necessary in regards to the discussion at hand, so John asked to cease use of the word, while encouraging discussion of the nature of the vulgarity.
With that explanation, it's a fair cop.
I apologize for my actions, and will work harder to limit myself despite my usual posting standards.
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And minors don't play RPGs? Hey, its not that I want the forums to become a pit of profanity, I don't, but I am saying that if the editorial standards of the company are that you can put that word in a fictional character's mouth and publish it I don't think that you can argue too much that you are going to offend the very same group of people by using it on a forum. This is a niche gaming forum. The people who buy the books are going to be one ones posting and reading here, and the game developers think that the word is ok for the people who buy the books. If anything, I bet they thought it was GOOD for sales to use a little salty language, make the game "edgy" and to stand out from the pack. But now that we have your $20 for the pdf please don't use the same word here, you might offend someone.
Just saying, good for the goose good for the gander.
I'm not a moderator here, and I don't claim to be, or hold any aspirations towards ever being one, so the following is just general advice and personal opinion; but a general rule of internet moderation is "shut up while you're still behind." If a mod asks you to stop doing something, just stop doing it. It ain't rocket science, man.
If you feel the mod is out of line for asking you, take it to PMs and talk to them there. The side of the road amidst traffic isn't the place to complain to the cop about the traffic ticket, and the middle of a potentially inflammatory thread isn't the place to complain to a moderator about politely being asked to change your language or to share your thesis about gratuitous vulgar language within the gaming industry as a whole. If you have a problem with a mods call, take it up with that mod (or his boss) in private. Don't kvetch about it in the thread you know the mods are already keeping an eye on, or you're just borrowing trouble.
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It might be rocket surgery, however... :P
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And to think it all started with me complaining mildly about the use of omae. The threads, how they are a derailin'.
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*Looks at the sprawled bodies, the spilled toxic waste, and the mountain of goods all over the place from the derailment* OH THE METAHUMANITY!!!
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And to think it all started with me complaining mildly about the use of omae. The threads, how they are a derailin'.
I don't think it's really been derailed as much as a common example has taken over.
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Getting back to the original question, 'omae' is considered a very informal term, used mainly by those with close relationships with one another, like good friends. The thing to remember is that Japanese culture is very formal and hierarchical. If you were to speak with a Japanese person in Japan, and use the term omae, unless you were extremely close with the person in question, yes they would find it highly insulting because it indicates a level of familiarity that you probably don't have.
Pretend that you're an employee at a large corporation, and for some reason you are speaking with the president or CEO of the company. Think about how you would speak to such a person. Essentially, this is how the Japanese speak to each other, most of the time. In such cases, 'anata' would be the preferred pronoun (Though to be honest, if known, the opposite parties family name would be even more polite. Yes, this means that saying 'Mr. Suzuki has a very nice home' to Mr. Suzuki, is the most polite form of speaking.)
Between confidants (or slightly informal discussions between a superior party to an inferior one) however, omae is perfectly acceptable. The way the term is bandied around in shadowrun (usually between non-native Japanese who are not speaking Japanese) seems to me like 'amigo' or 'pal'. If any of the posters on Jackpoint were actually in a conversation with a Japanese person (and had bothered to read the sidebar in Corporate Guide regarding such interactions), they would probably curtail that linguistic quirk.
Disclaimer: my nihongo-fu is rusty as all get out, and the above should not be taken as complete gospel. Remember, google and fact-checking are your friends. ;)