Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ethan on <06-16-11/0955:18>
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I admit it, I love the guns in SR. Even my least combat-capable characters have a varied assortment of firearms. So I bought GH the day it came out and I've kept it open on my PC ever since.
Really liking the Machine Pistols, the B&P MP9 is nice with its RC of 1 but I like the Onotari Equalizer for its -1 AP. They have low ammo capacities however, compared to the Ares Crusader and whatnot.
The Colt M1991 seems to be the "perfect throwaway" as Riser puts it. Pop on a smartlink or laser sight accessory and take it off before you throw it away. Saves you 50¥ and the effort of removing the RFIDs from a Pred IV.
What did you like about Gun Heaven?
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My question is "are there any that are numerically superior to the guns from previous sourcebooks?" Those are the ones that the group's going to be looking closely at.
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A 1911 may not be numerically superior...apparently archaic ammo is much less space-efficient than the new stuff, for instance...
But style - in terms of style, the 1911 is a vastly superior weapon! ;D
(Oh, and I only briefly glanced through the sourcebook, Ethan, but I believe the 1911 has the Vintage quality, and cannot be outfitted with a Smartgun rig.)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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The Ares Predator I-Knock Off might be a better "Throw-Away" pistol. Caseless ammo (Probably the same 10mm Caseless the Mk. IV uses.), it can mount older smartlinks (Which require some software and a fiber optic cable, NBD.), and, well, it's an Ares Predator.
I find out you throw out an actual vintage Ares Predator I, however... >:(
The Colt 1991 (And it's predecessor the 1911A1) are probably only being made by knock-off companies now, not any legitimate manufacturers. Not exactly a good idea in a lot of ways, but for a drop piece, it's not that bad an idea.
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Yeah, the 1911/1991, whatever you wanna call it is indeed awesome. And yes, the vintage quality does make it a bit rough, but it still makes for an excellent throwaway, without coming across as "too big" like an ak-97, or "too small" like a hold out pistol. It all depends on what situation you're going into, but I'm always a fan of the saying how a m1911 has just the right amount of rounds for the problem. "If it takes more than 7 shots, its something you can't handle on your own."
Numerically, alot of the guns are pretty "bad"; the vintage quality really hurts (no electronic upgrades, all other mods cost 2x. You can see it in the demo pdf on DTRPG).
Many come with imaging scopes, often with vision enhancements to the scopes, so cybereyes become a bit redundant. These things are great for magicians/adepts who can't really allow themselves to get the upgrade; magicians in particular with the need for non-electronic vision for spells to work (thus making glasses/contacts/goggles a hassle).
Some are pretty awesome, the M4A1 has nice damage while still classed as an SMG, and being relatively cheap for such an upgrade. That one machine pistol is also pretty cool with -1 AP. The xfactor 2 is pretty cool for its increased ammo supply/shotgun, but a bit pricy. That one assault cannon at the very end with the built in response 6 commlink is pretty cool.
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A 1911 may not be numerically superior...apparently archaic ammo is much less space-efficient than the new stuff, for instance...
But style - in terms of style, the 1911 is a vastly superior weapon! ;D
(Oh, and I only briefly glanced through the sourcebook, Ethan, but I believe the 1911 has the Vintage quality, and cannot be outfitted with a Smartgun rig.)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Physical upgrades are possible, they just cost twice the amount. The Vintage quality is oddly written... "upgrades" as in Modifications or Accessories? Plopping on a laser sight on an M1911 or M1991 shouldn't be a problem I think.
Numerically superior? The B&P is good with an internal RC of 1 (plus a foregrip) which makes it superior to most other Machine Pistols. The bad part is that it's a Machine Pistol which is usually overlooked. The Onotari Equalizer has a -1 AP but the good ol' Ingram Smartgun X still beats either (as a SMG).
The Pred 1 seems like a good throwaway (the knock offs at least). The guns add variety, but not much extra power.
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Variety without power creep is always good.
And vintage weapons might have a bit of an advantage when it comes to certain things. After all, if you have the Colt M1911A1 that's been in the family since WWII, it might not be as difficult to enchant as a recently manufactured firearm out of a Nanoforge or Drone Factory, eh?
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Some are pretty awesome, the M4A1 has nice damage while still classed as an SMG, and being relatively cheap for such an upgrade. That one machine pistol is also pretty cool with -1 AP.
Those 2 guns are a reason why this PDF should contain a section that has stat changes to guns in other books to be used if you include the ones in this one into your game, ie. change to 6P for all SMG:s marked as carbines and change to AP -1 for P93 Praetor.
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Variety without power creep is always good.
And vintage weapons might have a bit of an advantage when it comes to certain things. After all, if you have the Colt M1911A1 that's been in the family since WWII, it might not be as difficult to enchant as a recently manufactured firearm out of a Nanoforge or Drone Factory, eh?
Quite true, the Object Resistance should be comparably lower... Hmm, they'd be easier to Destroy/Demolish with spells too, no?
I dunno Max, the other guns haven't really been overshadowed by the two firearms there. And the Praetor's a crazy bargain already (I know it's an example). I like what they did, they gave us variety--useful variety, without any power creep.
Besides, the only Carbines are the AK-97 and the M24 Water Carbine, and both have other things to recommend them. Also, the one with the -1 AP is a Machine Pistol not an SMG.
The Walther P109 is a solid SA Heavy Pistol. Though a Vintage piece it comes with 1 RC and a 12(c) capacity, all for 500¥. 66% more expensive than the M1991 though, but still a cheapy.
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1.Besides, the only Carbines are the AK-97 and the M24 Water Carbine, and both have other things to recommend them.
2.Also, the one with the -1 AP is a Machine Pistol not an SMG.
1.If M-4A1 Carbine does 6P, then there absolutely no sense that AK-97 and AK-147 carbine versions do 5P.
2.HK MP-7 also has -1AP, thats why i said P93 should have it too, as it's based on the P90 that fires same kind of armor piercing ammo as MP-7 does.
On other thinks, the Ogre Hammer gave me a character idea of a Hacker/Sniper who uses it internal commlink for his hacking ;D
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It's probably a continuity thing. Besides, if these modern weapons had the +1 DV or the -1 AP then there'd be no need for the Vintage ones. The Praetor's cheaper than the MP-7 and has a bonus 1 RC (and electronic firing for only +200¥). If it had -1 AP too it'd be better than even the Ingram Smartgun X.
I'm fine with supplements not modifying the main book or previous supplements. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't consolidate and update all of these later on in a comprehensive 4.75 edition though.
The Ogre Hammer Assault Cannon's a bargain as well. Wouldn't a commlink with those specs alone cost as much as the thing at 38000¥?
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16,800¥ using a Meta Link case and custom innards.
Just like the good old days with the old Cyberdeck that's cracked open and everyone inside custom built, eh Bull?
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Hmm, somehow I thought it'd be more expensive than that. But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.
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CommLinks are hella cheap compared to cyberdecks. Mass production, I guess.
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But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.
Yeah, it's a nice package for one RG quality, i just think it's really sad that it doesn't come with a smartlink.
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But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.
Yeah, it's a nice package for one RG quality, i just think it's really sad that it doesn't come with a smartlink.
Hellboy: "Look, Sammy, I'm not a very good shot... But the Samaritan here uses really big bullets."
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But hey, at least the Ogre Hammer's just one piece of Restricted Gear.
Yeah, it's a nice package for one RG quality, i just think it's really sad that it doesn't come with a smartlink.
Hellboy: "Look, Sammy, I'm not a very good shot... But the Samaritan here uses really big bullets."
Not really valid, as a troll revolver like Samaritan is very unlikely to cost 38k nuyen or even 10K.
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But the Ogre Hammer fires really big bullets as well. ;D
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The B&P MP9 is a very good Machine Pistol. I rank it as the best if you have a cyberarm gyromount/gyrostabilizer. Even without, it gives the Crusader (my previous #1 pick) a run for its money.
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Are there any revolvers in it?
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There are two I think. They don't bring anything particularly new to the table though. Neither are vintage, ones a light pistol, others a heavy. I think one is intended for trolls and has a built in metahuman customization.
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Are there any revolvers in it?
Two. Moderate stats, not very good art, but better than the other firearms in the book for new weapons.
The Crunch and Fluff don't QUITE match IMHO. Bu that's me.
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The Ruger Bloodhawk is quite Meh. It's better to take a Super Warhawk and modify it for Troll or very large Ork use instead.
For 50¥ LESS than the Bloodhawk, you can modify a Ruger Super Warhawk with Metahuman Customization and an Internal Smartgun system. Add the 50¥ for a Skinlink. (For +400¥ you can make it fire Semi-Auto and add a Personalized Grip to deal with the Recoil.)
Sticks said it best on the Bloodhawk entry. Also, the Bloodhawk fluff entry says it can be used as a weapon... but the gun lacks Melee Hardening. For its price I think that should have been built-in.
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The Ruger Bloodhawk is quite Meh. It's better to take a Super Warhawk and modify it for Troll or very large Ork use instead.
For 50¥ LESS than the Bloodhawk, you can modify a Ruger Super Warhawk with Metahuman Customization and an Internal Smartgun system. Add the 50¥ for a Skinlink. (For +400¥ you can make it fire Semi-Auto and add a Personalized Grip to deal with the Recoil.)
Sticks said it best on the Bloodhawk entry. Also, the Bloodhawk fluff entry says it can be used as a weapon... but the gun lacks Melee Hardening. For its price I think that should have been built-in.
You don't have to buy metahuman customization for any weapon at chargen, but, yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts on that gun. Makes no sense.
I like this book as a GM more than as a player. This book is full of the kind of guns barrens gangs should be packing.
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I like this book as a GM more than as a player. This book is full of the kind of guns barrens gangs should be packing.
I think that was the point.
"Jeeze, look at this beautiful Ares Predator I, and how poorly that gutterpunk kept you. Don't worry, Daddy will give you a good home!"
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I'm a little bummed that the Steyr Minotaur Anti-Material Rifle doesn't seem to have any advantages over the Barret 121. Sure, it has an imaging scope and an advanced safety, but it loses the silencer and the smartgun link! Not to mention that it has less armor penetration, is single shot (vs Barret's single action), and it costs 33% more! I just don't get it.
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I'm a little bummed that the Steyr Minotaur Anti-Material Rifle doesn't seem to have any advantages over the Barret 121. Sure, it has an imaging scope and an advanced safety, but it loses the silencer and the smartgun link! Not to mention that it has less armor penetration, is single shot (vs Barret's single action), and it costs 33% more! I just don't get it.
Marketing and sales. Steyr sells more than just that rifle, whereas Barret is a specialist.
Buy a brace of Steyr AUG-CSLs and Steyr TMPs, get a discount on the Minotaurs that make them competitive against the Barret. Without the added maintenance costs of a Smartlink or Silencer. And everyone knows Bolt Actions are more reliable and accurate anyhow, so they have that on their side as well.
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The B&P MP-9 is really good.
The Onatori Equalizer would be really good, but it's a FA weapon with 12(c) ammo... yeah. Maybe if you have Nimble Fingers so you can reload it with free actions, but even then, it's eating your free actions.
The Ogre Hammer I am honestly not sold on but there is a fair argument to be made for it, since it's only 1 RG at chargen and it gets you a nice assault cannon (albeit overshadowed by the much better Gauss Rifle) and a nice commlink at the same time. I can see it being a reasonable option.
Other than that, the guns are for show or for silly.
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Well, a lot of them were at one time.
I mean, honestly, a 3-shot repeating bolt-action rifle?
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Remember, in-universe Gun Heaven's mostly obsolete stuff, that's just statted up for reference. So in a way it makes sense for the go-to guns of the early/mid 2070s to be better...it makes for a kind of weird sourcebook, maybe, since it's not full of awesome cutting-edge stuff, but in-universe it makes sense, at least.
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Except for the new weapons that look... OK, honestly, who the hell did the art on this stuff?
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Except for the new weapons that look... OK, honestly, who the hell did the art on this stuff?
While I'm not crazy about some of 'em myself (not because I think they're bad, necessarily, but because they just don't look like things I'd want to fire)...real life, today, gives us crazy looking stuff like:
[spoiler]TDI Vector: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897)
Magpul FMG-9: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=S2Q&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=magpul+fmg9&pbx=1&oq=magpul+fmg9&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=22397l26331l0l26742l20l14l0l1l1l0l231l1888l0.8.3l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=S2Q&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=magpul+fmg9&pbx=1&oq=magpul+fmg9&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=22397l26331l0l26742l20l14l0l1l1l0l231l1888l0.8.3l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897)
PP-2000: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=XN6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=PP+2000&oq=PP+2000&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=24641l26960l0l27167l17l9l0l2l2l0l180l564l2.4l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=XN6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=PP+2000&oq=PP+2000&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=24641l26960l0l27167l17l9l0l2l2l0l180l564l2.4l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897)
FN F2000: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=zN6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fn+2000&oq=fn+2000&aq=f&aqi=g1g-s9&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=26566l27197l2l27406l7l5l0l0l0l0l294l920l0.3.2l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=zN6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fn+2000&oq=fn+2000&aq=f&aqi=g1g-s9&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=26566l27197l2l27406l7l5l0l0l0l0l294l920l0.3.2l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897)
Steyr AUG (though we've already had them in SR for a while): http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=QO6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=steyr+aug&oq=steyr+aug&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=14816l15763l4l15838l9l6l0l0l0l0l209l789l0.4.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=QO6&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=steyr+aug&oq=steyr+aug&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=14816l15763l4l15838l9l6l0l0l0l0l209l789l0.4.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897)
FN P90: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=53Q&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=FN+P90&oq=FN+P90&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=19218l20417l6l20671l6l5l0l0l0l0l215l518l0.2.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+vector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Yhl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CLlVTuG2Csm1twfrjqGQAg&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1022&bih=897#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=53Q&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=FN+P90&oq=FN+P90&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=19218l20417l6l20671l6l5l0l0l0l0l215l518l0.2.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cb336c8b1daafac4&biw=1022&bih=897)[/spoiler]
(Spoiler tags used to hide the ugly, ugly, code that seems to be the only way to hotlink stuff)
So there's plenty of stuff out there that someone 60+ years ago would look at and go "LOL WHUT?" and never ever want to hold in their hand, shoulder, put close to their face, and pull the trigger on. I think maybe the Gun Heaven team went a little too...uhh..."out there"...with some of the designs, myself -- like I said! -- but it's not like there's absolutely no precedent for some guns to just give you a total WTF moment when you look at 'em.
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Do they look like weapons? Yes. For a Space Opera.
And, aside from the FMG-9 (Which is supposed to not look like a firearm) and the P90 (Which reminds a newly famous author of a box of chocolates), those all look like legit firearms to me. Weird, yes. Futuristic, some of them (The Steyr AUG is older than I am, actually.), but definitely firearms.
I think one of the Revolvers I wouldn't even want to have tried in Gun Haven Heaven.
Probably the gun nut in me. OK, the artist went too "Out of the park" on the designs. I can understand. Hell, I had to show one how the mechanism of an automatic weapon worked in order to get good art from him on one project I was involved with. (I found a video of a Sten II firing and got it to work in slow motion.). But, well, we're Canucks. What the hell are we supposed to know about firearms other than they're bad in the hands of criminals and good in the hands of police? :P
Oh, and a bolt-action rifle is dangerous unless it ONLY holds 5-rounds in it. :o
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I think one of the Revolvers I wouldn't even want to have tried in Gun Haven Heaven.
I have an Ex-KE SOCO Face that exclusively uses revolvers, in game (pre-gun heaven) he ended up it all of them. Post gun heaven he turned his nose up at the new revolver.
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I think one of the Revolvers I wouldn't even want to have tried in Gun Haven Heaven.
I have an Ex-KE SOCO Face that exclusively uses revolvers, in game (pre-gun heaven) he ended up it all of them. Post gun heaven he turned his nose up at the new revolver.
The Colt Coralsnake or the Ruger Bloodhawk?
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Coralsnake or the Ruger Bloodhawk?
Ah I meant the Ruger Bloodhawk. I'd forgotten the Colt Coralsnake existed. I can firmly say he didn't like either.
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The Colt Coralsnake states it's larger than the Colt Asp, yet is a 5-shot that costs more, and in the same "Caliber" (Damage Code). It'd work better as "Smaller than the Colt Asp" and been made a Hold-Out (Like a "Mountain Revolver").
The Ruger Bloodhawk, well, who designed that hammer, and for what kind of hand? And it's supposed to be a "Bigger Troll Handcannon", yet is chambered for a smaller caliber (Damage code) than the Ruger Super Warhawk, at a lot larger cost. Sticks certainly has it right in the Shadowtalk.
The only things I get from the "New" firearms is that marketing is running design more than the engineers are. Which... Actually doesn't surprise me.
EDIT: Alright, alright, I think I've whined enough about the art and such. We all get it, right?
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The Colt Coralsnake states it's larger than the Colt Asp, yet is a 5-shot that costs more, and in the same "Caliber" (Damage Code). It'd work better as "Smaller than the Colt Asp" and been made a Hold-Out (Like a "Mountain Revolver").
The Ruger Bloodhawk, well, who designed that hammer, and for what kind of hand? And it's supposed to be a "Bigger Troll Handcannon", yet is chambered for a smaller caliber (Damage code) than the Ruger Super Warhawk, at a lot larger cost. Sticks certainly has it right in the Shadowtalk.
The only things I get from the "New" firearms is that marketing is running design more than the engineers are. Which... Actually doesn't surprise me.
Yup they've decided to make bad guns sell well.
Good and bad for crime. Criminals not in the know will use worse, traceable gear. Straight and narrow/uninformed shadow targets (it happens) will have a sub-standard defence.
Runners will stick to tried and tested guns, players will whine for new toys with better/unique stats. (I like the Taurus' less chance to glitch)
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Or you get GMs/Players like me who write their own stuff. :P
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Or you get GMs/Players like me who write their own stuff. :P
True, I make double barrelled burst fire Deputy's when i do.
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I make things like this. (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=35599&view=findpost&p=1097413)
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I make things like this. (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=35599&view=findpost&p=1097413)
My Soco would buy it
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Maybe your Soco can be part of the teams that tests it. Or has the other Shadowruns around it. ;)
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Heh I wish.
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This is a cool book. I was REALLY hoping for a new flamethrower though. But the Ogre Hammer partially makes up for it. A large portion of the guns are pistols.
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@ Critias
With the exception of the Steyr AUG and the PP2000, those are all great looking weapons with tight compact functional frames. Most of the new automatics and long arms were to back heavy to be practical with way over sized trigger guards. I really liked the look of the t-983, other than the cluttered top rail, and the equalizer is growing on me, I can picture it firing and it seems realistic if a little odd, but the rest... the Jainshi don't have room for the bolt to move behind the clip(s). the chamber on the Xfactor III doesn't line up with the barrel. the Minotuar's rear grip is almost as long or longer than the front bi-pod and for some reason its the only weapon not to get a trigger guard. I wish the artist had had a better understanding of how firearms work. The detail on all the new guns was great and with a little more knowledge the designs could have been marvelous.
On a side note. While the Steyr AUG is not the most aesthetically pleasing weapon you have to love a firearm that can go from being a carbine to a LMG in the same amount of time it takes to clean most rifles. I would love to see a weapon turn up in shadowrun that you could do that with an armorer skill role.
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16,800¥ using a Meta Link case and custom innards.
Just like the good old days with the old Cyberdeck that's cracked open and everyone inside custom built, eh Bull?
Actually upgrading an matrix attribute is capped by base attribute + 2 (SR4A 222). So it's a Transys Avalon with Novatech Navi for 23500Y.
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I would love to see a weapon turn up in shadowrun that you could do that with an armorer skill role.
Umm, Steyr Aug is allready in the game, as is HK XM30, both of witch you can do that.
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16,800¥ using a Meta Link case and custom innards.
Just like the good old days with the old Cyberdeck that's cracked open and everyone inside custom built, eh Bull?
Actually upgrading an matrix attribute is capped by base attribute + 2 (SR4A 222). So it's a Transys Avalon with Novatech Navi for 23500Y.
Somehow missed that. ... Oh well, thanks for the heads up.
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Everyone makes that mistake. I did until someone pointed it out to me. It also causes weird things like you can't have Firewall 6, but that's another thread.
As for Gun Heaven itself, the guns are nifty conceptually. The problem with a book like this is that SR guns are all similar enough that it's quite easy to compare them. Thus it's often to end up with "best guns" for a given niche. While this is alright especially since honestly the difference between best and average is fairly small, it makes a product like Gun Heaven problematic. Either it's a book full of guns no one will use (or worst yet given to already weak NPCs for flavor) or it's full of new "best guns" and everyone puts down a few thousand nuyen for some lol power creep or a mix. Gun Heaven is a mix. A lot of the guns are merely meh versions of better firearms while there's a few that take the top slot (such as the MP9 for Machine Pistols).
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as a footnote on the Colt 1991/m1911 bit. Les Baer and Kimber are two modern manufs of that particular frame (high quality I am told), and might be a interesting bit of Fluff for background.
Also, While there might be titan ams companies, I've noticed that there are a lot of second string companies that do after market mods and making of weapons in small enough amounts that the big boys doesn't even notice. I see no reason Shadowrun can't do the same
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I even know of an in-game corp that does it.
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I even know of an in-game corp that does it.
Which? I need a corp like that for a game
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I've had a short fic character whose guns have been described as "Morissey-Kimber" (just stock Morissey guns, but with 'pimped' bought and acting like it came standard) for a while, now.
There's certainly plenty of room in Shadowrun for it, but I've always been a big fan of doing that sort of thing with cars, guns, etc, anyways. Just change the name of something, call it what you want to call it that you think is cooler, and call it a day.
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Which? I need a corp like that for a game
Cavalier Arms, currently a division of Reality, Inc.
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Which? I need a corp like that for a game
Cavalier Arms, currently a division of Reality, Inc.
Thanks!
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Which? I need a corp like that for a game
Cavalier Arms, currently a division of Reality, Inc.
Cavalier Arms...Cavalier Arms...hrm. What's the CEO's name, again? I don't remember. ;)
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Before or after the Old Man got himself shot dead in 2063?
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Before or after the Old Man got himself shot dead in 2063?
At least, that's the official coroner's report. I have a line on the original that makes things look much more... Suspicious. :P
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Hey, it's bad enough I...er, he...got blown away with his own guns in his own house. Now there's rumors flying that he wasn't shot up? You gotta tell me some of these one of these days....
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First off, the ballistics don't match up with the forensic evidence from the Gunpowder Residue found in various other parts of the room.
Secondly, the DNA strands show degeneration that can only be caused by exposure to X-Ray Radiation in excess of fifteen X-Rays a year for the person's entire life. Alternatively, it could be an example of "Flash-Clone" technology that has been considered obsolete due to rejection of the original host's body when used for organ transplant. This required extensive additional testing that wasn't available at the time of the official report, but was later discovered.
Thirdly, there were no breaks or signs of excessive high-powered firearms use in the wrists of the corpse, which is not consistent with the CEO's known shooting habits, or medical history.
PM me for the raw data feed. ;D
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Tragic soy processer accident? Shouldn't have sprung for the third hand Korean knock off. Torn to shreds.
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First off, the ballistics don't match up with the forensic evidence from the Gunpowder Residue found in various other parts of the room.
Secondly, the DNA strands show degeneration that can only be caused by exposure to X-Ray Radiation in excess of fifteen X-Rays a year for the person's entire life. Alternatively, it could be an example of "Flash-Clone" technology that has been considered obsolete due to rejection of the original host's body when used for organ transplant. This required extensive additional testing that wasn't available at the time of the official report, but was later discovered.
Thirdly, there were no breaks or signs of excessive high-powered firearms use in the wrists of the corpse, which is not consistent with the CEO's known shooting habits, or medical history.
PM me for the raw data feed. ;D
I've n idea if you're joking, home brewing or if this is a really interesting in bit of SR that i did not know
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I've often been asked by people if I'm serious or joking about what I know, how I know it, and the particulars.
My only answer has ever been: "Yes."
This scares some people. In others, it causes outright horror as they realize that I might actually be both at the same time. That said, they're still choosing to hide behind me when the apocalypse happens.
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Although, in this case, it was a matter of hyperactivity, boredom, overactive imagination, and the rudder of my mind ripping loose.
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Although, in this case, it was a matter of hyperactivity, boredom, overactive imagination, and the rudder of my mind ripping loose.
Ok =P
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That said... Who knows, maybe this will show up after all. ;D
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First off, the ballistics don't match up with the forensic evidence from the Gunpowder Residue found in various other parts of the room.
Secondly, the DNA strands show degeneration that can only be caused by exposure to X-Ray Radiation in excess of fifteen X-Rays a year for the person's entire life. Alternatively, it could be an example of "Flash-Clone" technology that has been considered obsolete due to rejection of the original host's body when used for organ transplant. This required extensive additional testing that wasn't available at the time of the official report, but was later discovered.
Thirdly, there were no breaks or signs of excessive high-powered firearms use in the wrists of the corpse, which is not consistent with the CEO's known shooting habits, or medical history.
PM me for the raw data feed. ;D
...aaaand cue radom "The Who" song for theme, and GO!
Gun Haven was pretty good, although I wonder why they used a (correct me if I'm wrong) Walther and called it a SIG and then used a SIG and called it an Enfield???
:o Just wondering.
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Wouldn't surprise me. The amount I had to train a few artists on firearms was quite amazing.
'Course, I was dealing with Urbanite Canucks. Might have been easier with some Rural Artists...
EDIT: Going to have to see if I can find that Sten-II Video again... Great way to show a SMG in use.
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Oh I can believe it. I still look at some SR guns and wonder exactly HOW they work. The Browning Ultra-power and Colt Manhunter for example: where exactly is the ejection ports for the shells? And where exactly IS the magazine (don't get me started on calling them 'clips') on the Colt L36? (OK, I'll forgive the L36 as it's a re-used design from somewhere else.)
And a lot of the rifles from Gun Haven looked really...uncomfortable to use from a shooter POV, not to mention seem a bit clumsy. *shrugs*. Nice stats though.
OK, Ill stop there. I feel a rant coming on.
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Caseless firearms don't need ejection ports, do they? 'Course, how do you do a "Brass Check", or whatever they'd call it on a caseless weapon?
Which, of course, brings us back to the "They come in cased and caseless versions" and blah blah blah, and a complete lack of named calibers... But that's getting gun nutty of me.
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Caseless firearms don't need ejection ports, do they? 'Course, how do you do a "Brass Check", or whatever they'd call it on a caseless weapon?
Which, of course, brings us back to the "They come in cased and caseless versions" and blah blah blah, and a complete lack of named calibers... But that's getting gun nutty of me.
This is the place for it. As for checking for "brass", I would use a RL example. My Springfield XD has a a "nub" along the top of the slide, just behind the ejection port. When a round is chambered, it pops up. That way, all you have to do us run your finger over the top and know (great for low to zero light conditions) if a round is chambered. Also, there is a small nub on the back of the slide (where the hammer for most other guns are) that sticks out to let you know the weapon has been properly charged. Something similar can be used in SR weapons, even with "caseless" ammo.
Of course in SR, your Smartlink would let you know such things. ;)
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See, that's the difference between practical experience and book learning, folks.
*Sighs* I can only get book learning...
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See, that's the difference between practical experience and book learning, folks.
*Sighs* I can only get book learning...
Yeah, but its much safer because paper dosen't shoot back. Getting shot at (in RL) is NEVER fun.
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I wouldn't want to belong to the military that would accept me as a soldier.
Hell, if they make me an officer, I'd be trying to get the hell out of the country! Possibly the continent.
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Reminds me of my first HS reunion. This is a direct quote from a guy who used to pick on me....a LOT
"So Rob, what do you do now?"
"I'm a cop."
:o (Imagine about 10x bigger)
"Ohhhh shi...They gave YOU a...gun?!?!?"
*evil grin*
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Oh I can believe it. I still look at some SR guns and wonder exactly HOW they work. The Browning Ultra-power and Colt Manhunter for example: where exactly is the ejection ports for the shells? And where exactly IS the magazine (don't get me started on calling them 'clips') on the Colt L36? (OK, I'll forgive the L36 as it's a re-used design from somewhere else.)
And a lot of the rifles from Gun Haven looked really...uncomfortable to use from a shooter POV, not to mention seem a bit clumsy. *shrugs*. Nice stats though.
OK, Ill stop there. I feel a rant coming on.
Actually, once I figured out what was going on I accepted the magazine vs clip label.
Magazine is a fixed magazine, like the tube magazine found on many lever action rifles or pump-action shotguns.
Clip is a removable magazine.
By using and "enforcing" the different label it actually reduces long-term confusion for most players. Annoying, sure, but it actually makes sense.
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By using and "enforcing" incorrect labels, it pisses off firearms enthusiasts.
That said, the average person calls them these things incorrectly all the time, and you aim at a broad audience, so, there you go.
Also, honestly, how many clip-fed weapons are left by the 2050s-2070s? Even I got to admit that it's not likely someone's going to get confused when shopping.
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As for checking for "brass", I would use a RL example. My Springfield XD has a a "nub" along the top of the slide, just behind the ejection port. When a round is chambered, it pops up. That way, all you have to do us run your finger over the top and know (great for low to zero light conditions) if a round is chambered. Also, there is a small nub on the back of the slide (where the hammer for most other guns are) that sticks out to let you know the weapon has been properly charged.
I remember a Ruger pistol that used a "loaded" indicator. When a round was inserted into the chamber, the back rim of the round would push a small block out of the way, making it stick out the side of the slide. It had a bright red dot on the rear of the block that would get exposed when it was sticking out so the user could see it without adjusting his grip. Worked well enough for standard centerfire rounds.
Unfortunately, someone at Ruger thought it would be a bright idea to put the indicator on some of their rimfire pistols.
Small firearms lesson: Bullets fire when their "primer" is struck, causing a small ignition point which sets off the rest of the propellant. In centerfire rounds, the most common, the primer is in a little divot in the center rear of the case. In a rimfire round, the primer is in a ring around the back rim of the case.
Yeah. A small movable metal block, resting against the rim primer. Imagine what happens if the weapon is dropped and lands on it's "loaded" indicator.
So I suppose even gun "experts" can be stupid about weapon design.
-k
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Probably someone's brother-in-law... >:(
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Oh I can believe it. I still look at some SR guns and wonder exactly HOW they work. The Browning Ultra-power and Colt Manhunter for example: where exactly is the ejection ports for the shells? And where exactly IS the magazine (don't get me started on calling them 'clips') on the Colt L36? (OK, I'll forgive the L36 as it's a re-used design from somewhere else.)
And a lot of the rifles from Gun Haven looked really...uncomfortable to use from a shooter POV, not to mention seem a bit clumsy. *shrugs*. Nice stats though.
OK, Ill stop there. I feel a rant coming on.
Actually, once I figured out what was going on I accepted the magazine vs clip label.
Magazine is a fixed magazine, like the tube magazine found on many lever action rifles or pump-action shotguns.
Clip is a removable magazine.
By using and "enforcing" the different label it actually reduces long-term confusion for most players. Annoying, sure, but it actually makes sense.
Hate to say it, but that's most definitely the wrong definition of "clip" vs "magazine"
A magazine is a device used to actively feed a firearm during firing. Whether it's the magazine of an AK-47 or a 9mm Beretta, it's a magazine.
A clip is a loading aid, used to assist in the loading of a guns fixed magazine or detachable magazine. For example, a Russian SKS assault rifle does not have a detachable magazine, but instead uses a 10-round stripper clip to feed ammo into the magazine directly.
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Thermo, you know that, I know that, the gun nuts here know that. The average person is going to watch a movie and go, "Oh, wow, does he look cool when he changes he clips like that!"
*Sighs* When marketing, aim at the lowest common denominator... :(
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people were talking about using the correct terminology in a thread specifically about firearms, seemed like as good a place as any to make the distinction :-\
not trying to be a smarty-pants or anything
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No problem Thermo, just been argued to hell and back too many times. We're right, but we're not going to win this fight. I just grumble about it every now and then and move on.
So, how about them Ares Predators? :P
Honestly, I'm hoping we get another nice gun porn book with an artist that's seen some firearms and can draw some nice futuristic-looking items that look like they won't break apart when firing a .22 Short. ;)
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I remeber my academy days when the firearms instructor came out with one of those huge black paper clips attached to a string and said in no un-certain terms: "THIS is a clip, and you load your weapons with a MAGAZINE. First person to call their magazine a 'clip;' will wear this around their neck for three days or until some other (CENSORED: Cant repeat here) says it!"
Needless to say, I knew exactly what to say. :-X
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If I get a regular game, I might do that. :P
*Sighs* No, I won't...
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If I get a regular game, I might do that. :P
*Sighs* No, I won't...
Do it, or get s regular game? ;)
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Some days, it feels like that would be a "Yes".
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as a footnote on the Colt 1991/m1911 bit. Les Baer and Kimber are two modern manufs of that particular frame (high quality I am told), and might be a interesting bit of Fluff for background.
Springfield Armory.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I've seen the clip/magazine thing pop up a LOT here and on Dumpshock and, usually, there's two types of people in the discussion. Those that want to make sure everyone understands the difference between a magazine and a clip, and how they are totally different and unique terms.
And those that really just don't care. ;)
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Oh I can believe it. I still look at some SR guns and wonder exactly HOW they work. The Browning Ultra-power and Colt Manhunter for example: where exactly is the ejection ports for the shells? And where exactly IS the magazine (don't get me started on calling them 'clips') on the Colt L36? (OK, I'll forgive the L36 as it's a re-used design from somewhere else.)
And a lot of the rifles from Gun Haven looked really...uncomfortable to use from a shooter POV, not to mention seem a bit clumsy. *shrugs*. Nice stats though.
OK, Ill stop there. I feel a rant coming on.
Actually, once I figured out what was going on I accepted the magazine vs clip label.
Magazine is a fixed magazine, like the tube magazine found on many lever action rifles or pump-action shotguns.
Clip is a removable magazine.
By using and "enforcing" the different label it actually reduces long-term confusion for most players. Annoying, sure, but it actually makes sense.
Hate to say it, but that's most definitely the wrong definition of "clip" vs "magazine"
A magazine is a device used to actively feed a firearm during firing. Whether it's the magazine of an AK-47 or a 9mm Beretta, it's a magazine.
A clip is a loading aid, used to assist in the loading of a guns fixed magazine or detachable magazine. For example, a Russian SKS assault rifle does not have a detachable magazine, but instead uses a 10-round stripper clip to feed ammo into the magazine directly.
Yes, in the real world, you're right. It doesn't, however, change what I said. It works for the shadowrun people to easily clarify whether the weapon has a fixed or detachable magazine. As I said, I know the difference, and it bothered me till I figured out what was going on. If it truly bothers you that much, be a pedant in your games.
Of course, over the years I've quit being as pedantic. The purpose of word use is communication, and insisting people use the head instead of the bathroom can lead to some nasty accidents.
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I've seen the clip/magazine thing pop up a LOT here and on Dumpshock and, usually, there's two types of people in the discussion. Those that want to make sure everyone understands the difference between a magazine and a clip, and how they are totally different and unique terms.
And those that really just don't care. ;)
Yes, being willfully ignorant is an inalienable right.
Way to go, apathetic benighted masses!
:P
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I don't think it's fair to apply 'wilful ignorance' and 'apathy' to technical terms.
If you work in the applicable industry, or have a high level of personal interest, it's important to know your terms. This applies to firearms, agriculture, vehicles, finance, manufacturing, service, IT, transportation, sanitation, etc.
I think the people Fastjack are referring to are simply those that aren't interested in or required to know these terms. And that is (or should be) totally fine. It probably won't affect the degree of success they have in life.
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Yeah, you say that now. Wait until the Zombies come and the difference can be life or death!
You use a Clip on a SMLE, you use a Magazine on a C7! :P
That said, you're willing to GM for me, so I'll shut up now.
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Haha! I almost included as a last line:
"And please don't use the 'preparedness for inevitable zombie apocalypse' as a counter argument."
If the zombies are coming over the barricade and I yell for another clip, please don't turn around and correct me. It's a high-stress situation and I haven't received any training.
Also, we're out of both magazines AND clips. Zombie apocalypse, duh.
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The problem with pedantry is it can be tripped.
Consider the Garand. You insert the en bloc clip into the (fixed) magazine. When the last bullet was fired the clip is ejected.
SOME clips - most of them today - are loading clips aka stripper clips. But some clips such as the en bloc clip behave remarkably like detachable magazines.
Second point. Languages change. English is particularly bad about this. Words get borrowed. Their meaning changes. (Awful used to mean awe-inspiring, not terrible.) The changes can happen in less than a decade. (Bad took about five years to pick up its slang meaning of awesome.)
The key, as already stated, is that language is a communication tool. To effectively communicate a word must mean the same to speaker and listener. For the shadowrun community as a whole, clip and magazine have a commonly understood meaning. That meaning is different from that as assigned by current pistol and rifle experts. For that matter, clip and magazine mean yet another thing when speaking to artillerymen or naval gunners.
So when you're talking to your fellow shooters at the range or in the field, feel free to be annoyed when one of them uses "clip" to refer to a magazine. Outside that community, however, FastJack had exactly the right attitude.
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The problem with pedantry is it can be tripped.
Consider the Garand. You insert the en bloc clip into the (fixed) magazine. When the last bullet was fired the clip is ejected.
SOME clips - most of them today - are loading clips aka stripper clips. But some clips such as the en bloc clip behave remarkably like detachable magazines.
Second point. Languages change. English is particularly bad about this. Words get borrowed. Their meaning changes. (Awful used to mean awe-inspiring, not terrible.) The changes can happen in less than a decade. (Bad took about five years to pick up its slang meaning of awesome.)
The key, as already stated, is that language is a communication tool. To effectively communicate a word must mean the same to speaker and listener. For the shadowrun community as a whole, clip and magazine have a commonly understood meaning. That meaning is different from that as assigned by current pistol and rifle experts. For that matter, clip and magazine mean yet another thing when speaking to artillerymen or naval gunners.
So when you're talking to your fellow shooters at the range or in the field, feel free to be annoyed when one of them uses "clip" to refer to a magazine. Outside that community, however, FastJack had exactly the right attitude.
Now who's being pedantic? ::)
An M1 uses a clip...whether it's an en bloc or a stripper clip or a half-moon, they're all clips and behave like clips. Clips load magazines.
The simple fact is that they used the wrong terms in the Shadowrun books, so that's what the community uses. If the books used the right term, the community would use the right terms. They got "katana" right in the books, and nobody says "Samurai sword" that I've seen, despite all of the Street Samurai running around.
Linguists may argue that "common usage" is just as valid as the correct usage of a word by an expert. Anyone other than a linguist generally accepts that there is a right and a wrong way to use a word, and the expert trumps the layman.
What I don't get is all of the pushback on this topic. If I were calling a fuel injector a carburetor, and someone explained the difference, I doubt it would be torch and pitchfork time...but correct someone on the difference between a magazine and a clip around here, and it's Holy War.
I don't think anyone (other than kirk :P) is arguing as to which usage is correct - the most basic research will quickly determine which is the proper usage. For some reason, though, there's a lot of discussion as to whether people should use the words correctly. I find that baffling.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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(shrug) went off because it looked like you did. Something about "apathetic" and "willfully ignorant", and annoyance that a magazine and a clip are different.
Having loaded and fired the garand a few times, from the user point of view (other than the banged up thumb and direction of load) there's no functional difference between its clip and the M-16's magazine.
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Just to give folks who might not be more than passingly familiar with things like hyperbole and auxesis a hand...
...if I use phrases like "apathetic benighted masses" I am probably engaging in a form of rhetoric involving exaggeration, rather than literal interpretation.
This is often accompanied with a colorful emoticon, as a notice to the unwary, such as this ":P" or " :o".
>:( :( ??? :o ;D :D ;) ( <- Simulated effects of hyberbole in a properly controlled environment (read left to right) )
I am also sleep deprived, so my hyberbolizer might be a few degrees off top dead-center.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Just to give folks who might not be more than passingly familiar with things like hyperbole and auxesis a hand...
...if I use phrases like "apathetic benighted masses" I am probably engaging in a form of rhetoric involving exaggeration, rather than literal interpretation.
This is often accompanied with a colorful emoticon, as a notice to the unwary, such as this ":P" or " :o".
>:( :( ??? :o ;D :D ;) ( <- Simulated effects of hyberbole in a properly controlled environment (read left to right) )
I am also sleep deprived, so my hyberbolizer might be a few degrees off top dead-center.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Hmm. Or perhaps i need to clean my glasses. :-[
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What did you like about Gun Heaven?
What I loved most about this product, after finally getting my hands (fig) on it, is that it's presentation style has gone back to the old 1st and 2nd edition style. Each piece has it's own page, with some game information on it and then the shadowtalk to help place the item in context. I think the last thing I saw that in was Fields of Fire.
For those who are curious as to how long I've been playing this game, I still have my copy Shadowbeat.
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Yes, I loves me my Gun Porn! ;D And Drone Porn. ;D And Boat Porn. ;D And Aircraft Porn. ;D
When we getting the Car Porn? ;D
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I really don't mind when people who honestly have no idea about weapons, other than what they see in movies on TV or watnot, make the mistakes. What does irritate me is either when said aforementioned people try and sound like experts and diss others who ARE. Ignorance I can forgive, stupidity, not so much.
Thank you, someone else can have the soapbox back now.
8)
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Ignorance can be cured, although ofttimes with significant effort. Supidity... well, we'll have to wait for Encephalons and Cerebral Boosters before we can really do anything about that.
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Ignorance can be cured, although ofttimes with significant effort. Supidity... well, we'll have to wait for Encephalons and Cerebral Boosters before we can really do anything about that.
Ignorance is nothing more than simply not knowing. Everyone is ignorant of something, at some point in their lives. For me arrogance is hand in hand with those who choose not to even try and become non-ignorant because they think they are right and flat out refuse to even consider they may in fact be ignorant of the subject. *shrugs*.
But anyway, has anyone used any of the new guns from GH in any of their games?
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The only modern clips I really see are moon clips for revolvers.
That said, clips and magazines serve the same function when you're trying to fire you gun (get the bullets in the gun to fire). There are mechanical differences, but if I yell for someone to toss me a "clip" for my Colt M-23 I'm pretty damn sure they'll know what I mean.
When the zombies come and I yell for a clip, you best toss me whatever I need for the gun I'm using. Otherwise, when you yell for a mag I'll toss you the tube I've ripped off the shotgun.
Its really only important to know the difference when designing the firearms (there has to be some way to feed the rounds). I know people that are top marksmen that don't difference (yay for growing up in arkansas) and it didn't keep them from being top marksmen.
I never will understand people's zeal for this subject. I don't feel the need to correct people every time the use brute force or exponential wrong, I just figure what they mean using the context and run with it.
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It's the Gun Control Crowd. The blaring ignorance they have, and use, is a weapon to criminalize legitimate and legal firearms.
That's how things like Airsoft Import Licenses in Canada are the same permits required to store Weapons-Grade Nuclear Material, as they "Look like real Firearms, and are thus dangerous.". Yes, that includes even the clear plastic ones.
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"I don't know what it's called...I just know the sound it makes when it takes a man's life."
-- John "Four Leaf" Tayback
You can be a great shot, and still be an amateur. I am not saying "amateur" in a derogatory sense, but simply as in "not a professional." Being a good shot doesn't imply that you know jack-all about weapons or the nomenclature associated with them. I'm a pretty good driver, even a trained one, but I'm not going to tell a mechanic what the doohickey linking the thingamabob to the whatsis should be called.
It's easy enough to ignore it the first few hundred times, but after awhile, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. Eventually, someone says "actually, it's a magazine, not a clip." Zeal ensues at this point for the reasons that Mystic states...invariably, someone who heard the word "clip" watching A-Team reruns starts arguing with trained professionals (military/LEOs/etc) about whether or not it's the right term.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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"Fully-automatic bolt-action sniper rifle." = SMLE in the Media, apparently.
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I realize I wasn't being constructive earlier. We all have our passions and wish everyone shared our depth of appreciation.
As a designer, I need to indicate what loading system the weapons in my game have to players know what reload action to use. When you read the list, most of them are distinct - cylinder (cy), muzzle-load (ml), etc.
I would see having magazine (m) and internal magazine (im) as an issue - these are quite similar and I would like them more distinct. I eventually choose to go with clip - a generally accepted (if not entirely accurate) term.
Those with a passion - what would alternative solutions be? How can we keep external magazines clearly separate from internal ones?
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Box Magazines (bm), Drum Magzines (dm), Pan Magazines if there are any left in the world (pm). Quite distinctive.
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It's the Gun Control Crowd...
Easy, Can. I'm right there with ya, but we don't want to get too political and wind up getting something locked down, y'know?
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*Deep Breath* OK. I'll be good.
Then I'll say it in another way that's also accurate: Firearms are a tool. You grow up in a rural community, you know that, you see them used as tools. They put meat on the table! (Good meat too.).
Urbanites, however, don't know much about them and are scared. After all, only criminals and police have firearms, right? Thus, gun nuts (like myself) and legitimate owners try our best to educate to get rid of those fears. Sometimes, it's so much of an uphill battle it turns into a knee-jerk reaction.
The "Clips"/"Magazine" thing is a prime example of that. The same way a computer tech gets upset whenever someone calls the computer case "The CPU", "The Hard Drive", or "The Thingie". Only people aren't trying to ban comput...
Stopped myself.
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This urbanite has fired machine guns, assault rifles, sniper rifles, squad automatic weapons, pistols, shotguns and grenade launchers. Expert qualification also. I've used them some of them in combat. I don't hunt.
Throwing out random, unsourced generalizations is the height of ignorance. I've found, in my anecdotal experience, that the "country boys" are a real pain in the ass to teach to shoot. They're used to hunting. So they may be accurate when you can sit in one spot with a stake and take your sweet ass time to aim, but that isn't how combat works. Shooting when you've been moving fast and flooded with adrenaline and your sphincter is so tight your pushing out diamonds...yeah. That's not an acquired skill out on the farm.
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Maybe it's a Canadian thing. With our military so small, there are a large number of families that don't have anyone in the military at all. Hell, the last person that served in my family was my Grandfather, who drove a lorry in WWII.
And I never said anything about military experience being required. Just an understanding that they're tools and can be abused just as much as any other tool can be. People don't villanize meat slicers, because they see them all the time being used properly, but used improperly those things are dangerous, if not deadly. I'd include cars in that, but Winnipeg has a very vocal bicycle community that does villanize all forms of automobiles (Save mass transit, and even then they don't say nice things.).
It's also how the drektastic firearms regist... Damnit, there I go again. Stopping now.
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All I'm saying is you can't make generalizations and denounce ignorance in the same breath. Fact is, most people are not trained in firearms. And by trained, I mean actually using the damn thing. I have found that even the most passionate gun owners aren't passionate enough to work up a sweat and do a stress shoot now and then. I tend to tell people they own a metal teddy bear.
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I've already been told how close I've gotten to the ToC, I'm shutting up now. As for making "Gerneralizations"... Well, I'll just correct myself and say "The majority of" to both of those groups rather than paint them all with the same brush. How's that?
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All I'm saying is you can't make generalizations and denounce ignorance in the same breath. Fact is, most people are not trained in firearms. And by trained, I mean actually using the damn thing. I have found that even the most passionate gun owners aren't passionate enough to work up a sweat and do a stress shoot now and then. I tend to tell people they own a metal teddy bear.
Some of us do. But, damn, does it suck doin' it here in the Texas heat. ;D
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He'll that should make it easy. You walk to your car and work up a sweat.
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OK, I see the issue that people are getting hung up on: Cultural Difference Hang-up (Took awhile, but I'm not having a very good day today.).
Civilian firearms ownership, to me (And a lot of Canadian firearms owners) involves the family hunting rifle and maybe a few other items. For hunting.
I'm not talking about The Wild West where every man needed to prove his virility and right to walk down the street by having a hogleg strapped to his hip (I'll leave that to the folks in Alberta. ;) ). Nor even CCW or automatic weapons or any type (Well, maybe Semi-Auto. Some moose can get really aggressive!).
I'm talking about rifles that have been in a family for a century or longer, or younger ones that serve the same purpose but are purpose-built for the job rather than being old military rifles brought home. Families that have owned and used firearms reliably and honestly for generations.
"Fully-automatic bolt-action sniper rifle." = SMLE
To quote myself. (SMLE for those that don't know is a Bolt-Action Rifle that's over a century old, and is one of the most common hunting rifles in Canada. It stopped being a "Military Rifle" during the Korean War, when it was already hopelessly obsolete.). This is honestly how a lot of people see any type of firearm, even muzzle-loaded black powder flintlocks. Murder Machines only.
I may have generalized a bit too much, but I've seen too much of it by too large a group of the same type of people, a lot of whom should even have known better, so put that down to knee-jerk reaction and a cynical world view. I should have typed better, but, as I said, I'm not having the best of days in a lot of ways.
I should point out that I'm not a firearms owner, and that my family firearms (Two rifles, one a single-shot Cap & Ball Conversion, and a double-barreled shotgun) were deactivated, and later destroyed. It's unlikely I'll ever own a firearm, for any reason at all. I'm not about to start hunting, and if I'm in any kind of situation that requires me to have a militant enough stance to get a firearm, "Ownership" has gone out the window anyhow, and it's become mere possession. I do, however, have family that does hunt, that does own firearms and use them responsibly. I also know people who have dog-wolf crossbreeds with no fear of mankind literally at their back fences, as well as bears, and other wildlife that don't have much use for things like personal property as well as the possibility of other wildlife issues (Rabies outbreaks anyone?).
...
Man have we gone off topic!
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Man have we gone off topic!
Yes, let's get back to the topic at hand before this thread get's shut down by a moderator, shall we?
As I said earlier, I had recently acquired Gun Heaven and liked the shadowtalk for each item, which helps place the item in context with the rest of the world. I've since gotten several of the other tech expansions and found them to have the same format, which I'm very happy about. But, I wasn't happy with how new guns where scattered throughout the old guns. My problem wasn't that they were in there at all, just that i would have preferred a clearer separation. Not everyone who's a Shadowrun gun-lover is a real world gun-lover, so they have to pay careful attention to the standard modifications least they select an outmoded, real-world gun without realizing it. Yes, there are arguments that the product is for the gun enthusiast, but not every who plays one is one in real life, nor do they necessarily have the inclination.
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???
Only gun enthusiasts can be bothered to read the list of standard mods on a weapon?
We have one of those in our group...we tell him how many dice to roll and point him toward the bad guys. ::)
Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.
Well thats probably mostly about the size of the weapon, after all the carbine version is closer in size to a SMG then full-size AR ,classifying it as an SMG makes it use the concealibility modifier for that and SMG specialization rather then AR specialization.,
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Being a "gun enthusiast" has nothing to do with it. Heck, Gun Haven listed the M4 as an SMG, then adds an asterisk to state that it uses rifle ammo. I love SR, I really do...but having real world firearms knowledge is NOT a requirement.
Well thats probably mostly about the size of the weapon, after all the carbine version is closer in size to a SMG then full-size AR ,classifying it as an SMG makes it use the concealibility modifier for that and SMG specialization rather then AR specialization.,
Allow me to preface this by stating that the reason I bring this up is Weldûn's assertion that Gun Haven is written in such a way that requires the reader to be a gun enthusiast. I am stating that this is not the case, as it is demonstrable that Gun Haven (and SR in general) was not written by/for people with a lot of real-world firearms knowledge.
With that out of the way...
The defining characteristic of a submachinegun is that it uses pistol ammunition. Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
The "game mechanic" thing had occurred to me, except that it still doesn't make any sense. The M4 uses rifle ammo, and therefore the combat stats are that of a rifle. Why classify it as an SMG then correct all of the combat stats? Why not just classify it as an AR and adjust the Concealment? It has a folding stock...which gives it the bonus to concealment. If they gave it the Reduced Barrel mod, it would round it out nicely (and realistically).
Having it use the SMG specialization rather than the AR specialization based on its size just reinforces the lack of research/knowledge that I'm talking about - an M4 is the carbine form of the M-16A2. Mechanically, it's the same weapon, just shorter. Someone who has focused their training on ARs (such as any relatives of the AR-15) are going to be much more familiar with the operation of an M-4 (which is functionally identical) than, say, someone who has primarily focused on SMGs (such as the MP5's cousins).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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It's not unique to Gun Haven, mind you, and the M16 family of weapons. The AKs have gotten similar treatment, and for more than on edition, now -- shortening the barrel makes one an assault rifle and one a submachinegun, and back in, say, SR3, that meant two whole separate skills (not just a different specialization)!
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Well, to be fair, the AKS-74U (The AK-97 Carbine, essentially) is just a large SMG in size, despite the light assault rifle cartridge (5.45mm Soviet.). The H&K HK53 is marketed as an SMG in the company catalog, despite being in 5.56mm NATO as well.
For most people, SMG requires a pistol cartridge, but not everyone agrees on that one. Just like a lot of firearms terminology, unfortunately.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
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One thing I saw that I liked in the SSC was that every firearm had it's own concealability rating. That way a short-barreled Browning Ultra-Power was easier to hide away than the monsterous Ares Predator or Ruger Super-Warhawk.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
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Well, to be fair, the AKS-74U (The AK-97 Carbine, essentially) is just a large SMG in size, despite the light assault rifle cartridge (5.45mm Soviet.). The H&K HK53 is marketed as an SMG in the company catalog, despite being in 5.56mm NATO as well.
For most people, SMG requires a pistol cartridge, but not everyone agrees on that one. Just like a lot of firearms terminology, unfortunately.
The HK53 Carbine (note the full name) was a 5.56 carbine...specifically an SBR. It was a variant of the HK33, with some influence from the MP5, designed to fill the role of an SMG while having the armor penetration of a rifle. As such, it may well have been marketed along with SMGs, but it was, indeed, a carbine.
Firearms terminology is very much NOT vague and spotty - it is much more specific than most lingo, because people tend to be specific when their lives depend on it. (As a side note, that is probably the reason that the military and law enforcement folks tend to rant about the abuse of these terms. It makes them...itchy...when people around them don't know their gear.)
The problem is that people spend all of their lives being saturated by Hollywood with misleading information about firearms, and they start to believe it. Most people spend more of their lives watching inaccurate stuff about weapons than they do on their entire education. Point out particular bit of bullcrap, and it's like blasphemy.
Blowback is a myth, people. Glocks don't have hammers, no matter how cool it is to cock it back when you enter the room. When you rack the last shell out of your shotgun for dramatic effect, you're left with an empty shotgun. You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
EDIT:
Clarification - By "blowback" I mean the whole hurl-someone-across-the-room-with-a-.45 effect, al la Last Man Standing, not the mechanism by which self-loading firearms operate.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to. You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it. Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?
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You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.
While I appreciate the overall sentiment and agree with most of your post, I've gotta take issue with these last two, because the exceptions to them are vaguely amusing.
Sometimes folks have had their weapons shot out of their hands (because generally when two guys are standing there aiming guns at each other, often it's the gun/hands/arms that are in the way!), albeit not necessarily on purpose. So you CAN shoot the weapon out of the other fella's hands, but normally it happens just because his weapon is between your gun and his brain or heart or lungs or something.
And sometimes, in some situations, people have shot to wound. Civilians during a self defense scenario? Absolutely not. Cops? Again, not likely. But for a while the Israelis had guys with tricked out Ruger 10/22s, for instance, whose job was "riot suppression" by plinking at the legs of troublemakers to take the fight out of 'em. It turned out to be too effective (in that the rioters ended up dying too often), as I understand it...but, hey, it's not quite a "never, ever," if someone as hardcore as the Israeli military's doing it. ;)
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Which just proves what should be an old saying: "Don't f*** with the IDF."
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to. You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it. Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?
::) Concerned scold is concerned.
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Concerned person is legitimately concerned.
And he called me on things when I was going too far. And was right to do so. I thanked him.
"Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." - The Sniper
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Allow me to preface this by stating that the reason I bring this up is Weldûn's assertion that Gun Haven is written in such a way that requires the reader to be a gun enthusiast.
That's not exactly what I said, but close. What I mean is, not everyone is going to know, off the top of their heads, that the M4 is a real world gun. Okay, you also don't have to be a gun enthusiast to know it either, but that's not the point. THE POINT, is that due to the layout, some people might get tripped up and buy a gun that's not all that good. Some might say that they deserve what they get, but in the end these are games and some players can only really spare the couple hours they spend playing the game, not researching every weapon and mod.
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The problem is that people spend all of their lives being saturated by Hollywood with misleading information about firearms, and they start to believe it. Most people spend more of their lives watching inaccurate stuff about weapons than they do on their entire education. Point out particular bit of bullcrap, and it's like blasphemy.
Blowback is a myth, people. Glocks don't have hammers, no matter how cool it is to cock it back when you enter the room. When you rack the last shell out of your shotgun for dramatic effect, you're left with an empty shotgun. You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.
I've had some firearms training, though I'm far from an expert, and I know the difference between myth and reality.
That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.
Which is one of the reasons I was really hoping this topic would die out, or return to what the thread started out about: the weapons in Gun Heaven. Not because I think guys like you or CanRay are wrong (from the pure technical standpoint, you're all absolutely correct), but because it's just a game and this sort of discussion, in the end, is utterly worthless. The game terminology is probably not going to change, nor should it, IMNSHO. All these discussions ever do is stir things up to no good end.
Which all a lot of words more than I ever wanted or planned to contribute to this part of the thread, but sometimes I feel like things force my hand.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to. You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it. Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?
::) Concerned scold is concerned.
Hey, it's your warning level, reputation, and pattern of behavior, buddy, not mine. I'm trying to let you know -- before a moderator does -- that you're coming off like a prick, that's all. You want to keep on pricking the place up, by being a prick to me while I try to let you know? That's on you. But don't go crying about heavy-handed moderation or whining about how your precious thread got locked, when the inevitable happens because of the chip on your shoulder, again. You've got no one to blame but yourself and the ToS you willingly signed to create an account, pal.
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Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
It wasn't the topic that got that thread locked, it was the attitude (like calling the guy a knucklehead, just now) that mostly did that trick.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
No, Cass, but it's your job to talk to people in a civil manner while you're on these forums, just like everyone else is supposed to. You're oh-for-two in these last couple posts, for instance, and you're a smart enough guy you should know it. Why don't you tone it down a little before the mods have to butt in again, and another thread gets locked?
::) Concerned scold is concerned.
Hey, it's your warning level, reputation, and pattern of behavior, buddy, not mine. I'm trying to let you know -- before a moderator does -- that you're coming off like a prick, that's all. You want to keep on pricking the place up, by being a prick to me while I try to let you know? That's on you. But don't go crying about heavy-handed moderation or whining about how your precious thread got locked, when the inevitable happens because of the chip on your shoulder, again. You've got no one to blame but yourself and the ToS you willingly signed to create an account, pal.
::) blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.
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That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.
OK man, sorry. Just something I have a passion for and sometimes it gets the better of me.
Wasn't there a movie that was entirely a wageslave's escape during his lunch break and was a killer-a action movie, and purposefully made mistakes about firearms and such? Wish I could remember it, I wanted to see it, but then...
SHINY!!!
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First, let's condense a series of responses:
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
::) Concerned scold is concerned.
::) blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.
Then, let's switch to red text:
From the TOS: "Rule 1. Play nice. When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect."
Those responses are not indicative of much respect. Cass100199, this is a warning. Please review the Terms of Service and follow them. Thanks!
Jason H.
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Thank you Jason.
Let's get back to the shooting of people in the face with these new firearms, shall we?
EDIT: For fiscal rewards, of course!
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First, let's condense a series of responses:
Good luck. Already started and had the thread locked on this topic. Some knucklehead kept insisting the SR books were right.
Truth hurts, but facts are facts. Some people learn and others cling to ignorance. Isn't my job to coddle their fee-fees.
::) Concerned scold is concerned.
::) blah, blah, blah....you weren't worth my original response.
Then, let's switch to red text:
From the TOS: "Rule 1. Play nice. When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect."
Those responses are not indicative of much respect. Cass100199, this is a warning. Please review the Terms of Service and follow them. Thanks!
Jason H.
No problem. And I'll admit, when Critias started threadjacking and got the vapors I should have asked him to go PM. I'll be more cognizant next time. :)
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The defining characteristic of a submachinegun is that it uses pistol ammunition. Stating that the M4 Carbine is an SMG that uses rifle ammo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what SMGs and carbines are.
I would say that it demonstrates that the writer clearly know it's not actully an SMG, witch gets as to your second poin
The "game mechanic" thing had occurred to me, except that it still doesn't make any sense. The M4 uses rifle ammo, and therefore the combat stats are that of a rifle. Why classify it as an SMG then correct all of the combat stats? Why not just classify it as an AR and adjust the Concealment? It has a folding stock...which gives it the bonus to concealment. If they gave it the Reduced Barrel mod, it would round it out nicely (and realistically).
Actually it has it's very own combat stats that are unique to it, so for that the SMG or AR makes no difference(except that SMG doing more damage then normal is easily explained by the note about using rifle ammo, where as AR having different AP because of shorter barrel doesn't really fit the system)
NAd classifying it as SMG is much simpler then giving it a concealment bonus, especially as carbines have always been classified aas SMG:S in the game
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They really should have just seperated them out as another class. And this goes back to where we were a few pages ago, why couldn't the writer and artists be bothered to do some research before churning things out?
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They really should have just seperated them out as another class. And this goes back to where we were a few pages ago, why couldn't the writer and artists be bothered to do some research before churning things out?
How on earth does the fact that they didn't want to add one more separate weapon class mean they didn't bother to do any research?
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That said, I stick with myth for this venue. You know why? It's a game, and the Hollywood image is a helluva lot more fun to put into a game than reality is. I get enough reality in...well, reality. I have a job I really, really dislike most of the time, I'm married with two kids and not enough money, and I'm going back to college. I don't need reality imposing itself overmuch in my escape from reality.
OK man, sorry. Just something I have a passion for and sometimes it gets the better of me.
No harm, no foul, Ray. I'm sure I do things of this nature in some other venue and people want me to shut the hell up (heights, weights, and body dimensions come to mind). And honestly, I usually just ignore it. Every now and then, though, I feel compelled to open my yap and say something and try to remind people that they're getting way too serious about a game.
Sometimes I even manage to remember that I do it too, so like I said...no harm, no foul.
Wasn't there a movie that was entirely a wageslave's escape during his lunch break and was a killer-a action movie, and purposefully made mistakes about firearms and such? Wish I could remember it, I wanted to see it, but then...
SHINY!!!
Sounds familiar, but I also can't recall a title, and largely for the same....SQUIRREL!!
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You can't shoot the weapon out of a bad guy's hands, and you never, ever shoot to wound.
While I appreciate the overall sentiment and agree with most of your post, I've gotta take issue with these last two, because the exceptions to them are vaguely amusing.
Sometimes folks have had their weapons shot out of their hands (because generally when two guys are standing there aiming guns at each other, often it's the gun/hands/arms that are in the way!), albeit not necessarily on purpose. So you CAN shoot the weapon out of the other fella's hands, but normally it happens just because his weapon is between your gun and his brain or heart or lungs or something.
And sometimes, in some situations, people have shot to wound. Civilians during a self defense scenario? Absolutely not. Cops? Again, not likely. But for a while the Israelis had guys with tricked out Ruger 10/22s, for instance, whose job was "riot suppression" by plinking at the legs of troublemakers to take the fight out of 'em. It turned out to be too effective (in that the rioters ended up dying too often), as I understand it...but, hey, it's not quite a "never, ever," if someone as hardcore as the Israeli military's doing it. ;)
While, indeed, amusing...you do realize that those "exceptions" are full of fail? :P I guess I could have worded my rant differently...you're welcome to do those things, but your results may be sub-optimal. ;D
Mäx:
As the defining characteristic of an SMG is the use of pistol ammunition, it makes a lot more sense to me to make the M4 a rifle (which it is) rather than an SMG (which it is not). In game terms, Damage is normalized across weapon classes. It makes a lot more sense to include the M4 in the AR class - because it's an AR that does AR damage - rather than shoehorn it into the SMG class and then change it back to AR damage with a footnote explaining why...even ignoring the fact that the explanation given for why it doesn't do the same Damage as other SMGs is because it's not an SMG.
That's precisely what "it uses rifle ammo" actually means.
Your interpretation is obviously different than mine if you think they knew what they were doing. I can agree to disagree - my GM is a nationally ranked 1000-yard shooter, so I am pretty sure I can convince him to fix the classifications in our game so that those Specializing in ARs don't get screwed over by carbines being in the wrong weapon class.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.
The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.
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Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.
The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.
But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements. For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.
The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.
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It also completely ignored old skool battle rifles.
...
Oh, no, wait, there they are. Under hunting rifles. Never mind.
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Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.
The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.
But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements. For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.
The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.
There's a difference between precision and accuracy.
Using the correct terminology and classifications, within the existing framework, doesn't increase complexity. They wouldn't need to add any tables or rules to call a magazine a magazine or classify a carbine as a rifle.
The system is abstract, not meant to be a simulation. Nor do I expect the authors to be retired SF Operators. Just noting that some basic definitions were not researched before they were applied. The size of the round has a lot more to do with weapon classification than the size of the weapon, and clips have been passé since the Korean War.
Note: I really like Gun Haven. Other rules get critiqued. Not intended as an indictment of the splatbook.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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So, what is needed is a Carbine rank of firearms, rather than jumping from SMG to Assault Rifles, eh?
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Really not even that. Just adjust carbines to AR damage and slightly better conceal ability. Maybe a point less of recoil comp since the buffers are smaller.
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A lot of the issue (size of weapon = damage) is part of traditional RPG game balancing factors, too, though. Along the same vein you've got stuff like (cost of weapon = damage) or, especially in Shadowrun, (rarity of weapon = damage) is a long-running feature that's not necessarily true in real life. Heck, you can pick up a cheap 12 gauge at Wally World for $150 or so, and a tricked out .22 for competition shooting can go for ten times that and a waiting list (not even counting antiques or collector pieces).
Sometimes it's not necessarily a lack of research, but a game balance conceit. Certainly not every time, mind you, but it's a bit of an RPG tradition by now.
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One of the old Final Fantasy games on the GameBoy (The original one, the brick!) had a "Glass Sword". Great damage, useable times: Once.
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A battle rifle is a full length rifle specifically designed for war... that is what it is. An assault rifle is a SELECT FIRE, SHORT BARRELED(relatively), INTERMEDIATE CALIBER rifle specifically designed for war.
M14 - Battle Rifle
Enfield - Battle Rifle
K98 - Battle Rifle
FN FAL(semi-auto only version) - Battle Rifle
M4/M16 - Assault Rifle.
AK-47/AKM/AK-74 - Assault Rifle
G36 - Assault Rifle
STG/MP44 - Assault Rifle
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In WWI: The Germans had the best sporting rifle. The Russians had the best hunting rifle. The British had the best battle rifle. And the Canadians... Had something that blew up in their faces and jammed if it got the least bit dirty, and came with a entrenching tool with a hole in the middle to rest the rifle in. :P
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A battle rifle is a full length rifle specifically designed for war... that is what it is. An assault rifle is a SELECT FIRE, SHORT BARRELED(relatively), INTERMEDIATE CALIBER rifle specifically designed for war.
M14 - Battle Rifle
Enfield - Battle Rifle
K98 - Battle Rifle
FN FAL(semi-auto only version) - Battle Rifle
M4/M16 - Assault Rifle.
AK-47/AKM/AK-74 - Assault Rifle
G36 - Assault Rifle
STG/MP44 - Assault Rifle
In real life, yes. In game, not so much. Some of them were out (and had been out for three editions) prior to the "Battle Rifle" class of weapons existing in Shadowrun. Others (like the Enfield and the K98) would likely be classed in-game as Sport Rifles, due to rate of fire stats.
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Rate of fire and type of ammo used. Civilian cased rounds, how 20th century!
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Let's see...AK47 is a 7.62. The SCAR and ACR can be chambered for 5.56 and 7.62. The AR15 family encompasses 5.56 and 7.62.the FN FAL can be found in 5.56. The Lee and Enfield fires a smaller round than an AK. The distinction between a "battle rifle" and "assault rifle" is shallow at best, especially when trying to draw distinctions based on size or caliber.
Inconsistecy aside, the examples of battle rifles in game don't follow your argued definition. A SCAR is under battle rifle, but not the AK. The weapons categorization was most definitely poorly researched and lazily put together.
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.303 British Service (The round for the Short-Magazine-Lee-Enfield) is 7.7X56mm (Rimmed). The M1 Garand uses the .30-06 Springfield, which is 7.62x63mm. The AK-47/AKM round is 7.62mm Soviet, 7.62x39mm. The 5.56mm NATO is 5.56x45mm while the 7.62mm NATO is 7.62x51mm.
Now, things get confusing as the differences in brass and powder used at different times gives different ballistics, as well as age and denaturing of old ammunition.
Finally, those are all Cased (Brass) ammunition. Shadowrun has Caseless as the standard for at least military firearms, which means there'd be new calibers, new changes in powder charge, and so on. A lack of named calibers means that we can't make any decisions based on the new firearms at all. Older ones, a bit more, but even then... What kind of quality of ammo is available in the 2050s-2070s? Old stuff that's getting older? New stuff that's made on the cheap? Handloaded brass from small cottage industries (Like the Reserve that makes ammo for the Sons of Anarchy amongst other things)?
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Secondly, by differentiating between a "battle rifle" and an "assault rifle" based on caliber size, the precedent is set to split two similar sized weapons into different groups based upon the ammo used. I realize this happened after the fact, but it wouldn't take long to issue a correction.
The meat of the problem, though is lack of knowledge. It doesn't take long to do some basic research. Hell, I've got 22 bookmarked sites of different gun manufacturers for my personal perusal. Not all guns are the same. Is a Beretta Neos (.22 LR) more powerful than a XD-M 40S&W compact just because it's bigger? Of course not. But the SR logic seems to run that size is more important than caliber. But instead of recognizing the lack of knowledge, it seems like sh*t was made up, flung into a fan, and then whatever made it onto paper was published.
But that same argument applies to armor and matrix and a host of other items as well. If I wanted to play Ice Crown's ShadowCharts, I can. But I don't want to check across half a dozen tables to cross-reference .22 magnum fmj against interceptor with medium ceramic reinforcements. For that matter I don't want to get mired in the fact that an axe, a dagger, a mace, and a chain each do different types of damage such that what will stop one won't stop another.
The handwave works for me, even though I know a little bit about these things; even though sometimes I have to blink at an occasional consequence of the handwave.
There's a difference between precision and accuracy.
Using the correct terminology and classifications, within the existing framework, doesn't increase complexity. They wouldn't need to add any tables or rules to call a magazine a magazine or classify a carbine as a rifle.
The system is abstract, not meant to be a simulation. Nor do I expect the authors to be retired SF Operators. Just noting that some basic definitions were not researched before they were applied. The size of the round has a lot more to do with weapon classification than the size of the weapon, and clips have been passé since the Korean War.
Note: I really like Gun Haven. Other rules get critiqued. Not intended as an indictment of the splatbook.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
And here we come to the crux of it. Yes, there will be inaccuracies, because the system used abstract rules to generalize events and their effects. My mantra when playing Shadowrun has always been "It's a cinematic system, it uses movie physics and logic, not the real-worlds". It's like when I'm running Mekton Zeta and a character falls 6 meters. They are "winded and loose one action". 6 meters. That's 20ft. No damage, just the wind knocked out of them and a loss of 5 seconds of activity. Why? Because it's an anime action RPG.
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I know, right?
Like, how can you claim a +12 Vorpal Hackmaster isn't keen unless you specifically put the Keen power on the sword? It's VORPAL. It automatically beheads creatures on a natural twenty! Are you telling me it doesn't have a better critical range than a regular +12 Hackmaster?
[/sarcasm]
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. IT IS A GAME. If you want to play ultra-realistic firearms, feel free to create the rules for them. Most people play the game and consider it two steps above pointing your finger at somebody and saying "BANG!" with the intention of that person playing dead.
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Sometimes I don't even consider it two steps....
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People will rant for 50 pages over an inconsistency in how Magic works, and no one bats an eye. Point out an issue with a firearm, and suddenly "it's just a game!"
Seriously, we are all here because it is a game we take fairly seriously, as games go. 'Jack, you've got 3600 posts...how many of those threads pertain to semantics over something make-believe? I am at least debating over actual terminology for actual things. If you want to play the "just a game" card, this might just be the most relevant thread on the whole board. :P (Again with the hyperbole, for those who may be skimming ;D )
I don't expect ultra-realism. That was the whole point of my last post. But classifying carbines as SMGs has an actual in-game impact - SMGs only do 5P damage (fixed for the M4, but not the AK97, for example), and it messes up carbines in terms of Specialization. You don't need specific calibers or headshots for the rules to be consistent or the terminology to be accurate.
It is hardly a game balance issue...you can take any AR and shorten the barrel and put a folding stock on it and...BAMF!...carbine. Just apply those mods to those weapons.
I don't expect everyon to know everything about firearms. I know many people who know a heck of a lot more about them than I do. But if I were writing a book specifically about in-game versions of real world firearms, I guess I would take a few minutes to check on the details. In defense of Gun Haven, I would wager the M4 classification was made simply because of the pre- existing error in carbine treatment.
In any case, this whole thing started because it was suggested that knowing things about actual weapons was pertinent to SR. I was merely pointing out that is not - be that because the writers didn't know much about weapons an didn't care to find out, or because they felt that the D6s rolled better if you called magazines "clips" and carbines "SMGs", in the end, real knowledge of weapons doesn't equate to SR knowledge of weapons.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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People will rant for 50 pages over an inconsistency in how Magic works, and no one bats an eye.
Actually, yes, I do. I think those discussions are just as senseless as this one, for much the same set of reasons.
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It is in fact possible to be a bit more accurate about weapons, without going overboard and statting out every last excruciating detail.
Suggesting a handful of tweaks that would bring firearms closer to their actual capabilities, isn't calling for a complete overhaul of the rules.
Seriously, why is it that every time someone suggests slightly more accurate rules, the inevitable response seems to be, "Well, you might as well re-write the whole system!"
-k
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People will rant for 50 pages over an inconsistency in how Magic works, and no one bats an eye.
Actually, yes, I do. I think those discussions are just as senseless as this one, for much the same set of reasons.
Same here. And the same goes for the new and similar Technomancer threads.
The game uses the rules it does to appease a larger group of gamers. I can pretty much guarantee if they try to make guns (or Magic, or Hacking) more realistic, sales will drop off and less people will play the game. You just have to look at the fact that not keeping track of ammo is such a common houserule to see that gamers, for the most part, will forsake realism for fun.
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All I suggested was the option for a new class of firearm. :-[
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All I suggested was the option for a new class of firearm. :-[
Yes, but the discussion on weapon realism goes back far longer. It's not your fault that your post opened up the (old) can of worms. ;)
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Well, if the group pans out, I promise not to be too gun nutty around them and snap whenever "Clip" is called out, or Carbines are classed as SMGs. :'( I just want to play.
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I just want to play.
Welcome to my world.
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I just want to play.
Welcome to my world.
Been there for 20-years.
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Seriously, why is it that every time someone suggests slightly more accurate rules, the inevitable response seems to be, "Well, you might as well re-write the whole system!"
Because that's inevitably what the discussion turns into. "Well, I just want these couple tweaks here. Oh, and while you're doing that, change this, this, this, and especially this. And once you do that, you'll want to add thus-and-such. Ooooh, and while you're there...."
I say the following not to belittle anyone else's experience in, or longevity in, this hobby. I know I'm not the only grognard here.
But I've been gaming for better than 30 years now, and I've been playing this game for...what, now, 22 of those years? I've been writing for games for most of that 30+ years. I've been designing, playtesting, and writing for SR on and off for the past 12 years. I've seen this discussion come up A LOT in all that time, and I've seen this specific discussion for this specific game come up A LOT in all that time, and in the past dozen years I've become acutely aware of it.
I've got this stupid pipe dream that the cycle will end here, even though I know it's never going to. My point, though, is to respond to the opening question in the quote up there. I've NEVER, in all these years, especially the last 12 spent working on this game, seen one of these discussions end in anything other than, "Hey, while you're in there, change all of this stuff, too...."
So yeah, when someone suggests some tweaks, it often goes to the "You might as well change the whole system" argument. It's become a shortcut.
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Inconsistecy aside, the examples of battle rifles in game don't follow your argued definition. A SCAR is under battle rifle, but not the AK. The weapons categorization was most definitely poorly researched and lazily put together.
Because the heavier version of the SCAR is actually a battle rifle and AK isn't, that SCAR fires 7,62 NATO rounds(7,62x51mm) witch are a lot bigger then the 7,62x39mm rounds fire by an AK47.
Not to mentioned that the AK in SR is more likely to fire 5,56 NATO rounds then those 7,62x39mm rounds.
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The AK-47/AKM or the AK-74? How about the AK-101?
All use different calibers. Who knows what ammunition the AK-97 eats.
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I just hope the that Steyr-AUG-CSL is better the the P.O.S. that the Steyr is right now. And don't tell me that it isn't. If you don't set your pin correctly (keeping the opening tool from the Aussie MRE is a good way to help do this), your magazine stands a good chance of falling out when you bring your weapon up to your shoulder.
Little wonder that today's Steyr didn't make into Gun Heaven. ;)
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AKM/47 uses 7.62x39 AK-74 uses 5.45x39 and the AK-101 uses 5.56x45. Why does the 74 uses 5.45? Because the Russians wanted to be "different". Though the 5.45 has proved to be just as if not MORE lethal than the 5.56 round. Was, and has been, called the poison pill because of how effective it is at murdering people. Anyway, I'm not complaining about any rules, though I wouldn't mind seeing proper firearms classifications. As in actually putting them in the same grouping as they SHOULD be rather than what was convenient.
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I'd be happy with damaged based on caliber and the use of the term magazine. :P
But, meh, it's done. This is what we have. Play nice children.
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I have never suggested more realism on the combat system. I have argued against it in several threads.
I simply wish they would get their basic vocabulary right. When I write, I fact check. *shrug*
I seriously doubt that calling a magazine a magazine, or classifying carbines as rifles, would drive anyone from the game. As was said by Fastjack awhile back - there's two kinds of people, those who know the difference, and those who don't care. Getting the basic terminology correct can really only help you, in that case.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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It's just laziness, really. If you're going to pay a premium for a product, then the obligation of well researched material is expected.
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Dead Horse, guys.
Anyone make good use of the Gun Haven Heaven guns in game yet? I kept my street sammie pinned down with the duel clip assault rifle on a drone.
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Wow, this thread got weird.
And yes, in my offline game (the only one) my GM spread around the use of the lower end pistols. My character got shot with one too, which is nice. Responded in kind, since he had run out of ammo by that time.
That was supposed to be my 'welcome back, we're playing downtime' game.
According to the Facebook/Twitter feed there's a second book already planned, and I hope for more shotguns in this one.
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Ogre Hammer does BAD things to people, drones, and lightly armored vehicles. As a man-portable weapon, not so good. In the hands of a troll, slightly better. Mounted on vehicle or drone.
Remember what I said about it doing bad things? I've had to severely restrict it in my games because now EVERYONE wants one.
The Colt 1991 is also been popular with a gunslinger adept player who comes and goes in my game. He likes the vintage stuff and it came in handy when the gun-bunny sammy (who loved to harp on him about his all vintage stuff) took a bad shot to the head and had all his headware scrambled, losing all of his targeting bonuses.
After seeing the vintage quality, I'm starting to think that having one basic gun that isn't able to be hacked and what not should be SOP for all runners should your 'link, net, etc ever become compromised.
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After seeing the vintage quality, I'm starting to think that having one basic gun that isn't able to be hacked and what not should be SOP for all runners should your 'link, net, etc ever become compromised.
I've said it a few times, datacable for a smartgun link works as a lanyard as well, and still gives the bonuses. :D
And everyone should love the M1911 and it's derivatives. ;D
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After seeing the vintage quality, I'm starting to think that having one basic gun that isn't able to be hacked and what not should be SOP for all runners should your 'link, net, etc ever become compromised.
I've said it a few times, datacable for a smartgun link works as a lanyard as well, and still gives the bonuses. :D
And everyone should love the M1911 and it's derivatives. ;D
There was a reason i named my old dog "Kimber"
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After seeing the vintage quality, I'm starting to think that having one basic gun that isn't able to be hacked and what not should be SOP for all runners should your 'link, net, etc ever become compromised.
I've said it a few times, datacable for a smartgun link works as a lanyard as well, and still gives the bonuses. :D
And everyone should love the M1911 and it's derivatives. ;D
There was a reason i named my old dog "Kimber"
[Insert "failure-to-feed" joke here, from some anti-1911 Glockophile like some folks I hang out with] ;D
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After seeing the vintage quality, I'm starting to think that having one basic gun that isn't able to be hacked and what not should be SOP for all runners should your 'link, net, etc ever become compromised.
I've said it a few times, datacable for a smartgun link works as a lanyard as well, and still gives the bonuses. :D
And everyone should love the M1911 and it's derivatives. ;D
There was a reason i named my old dog "Kimber"
[Insert "failure-to-feed" joke here, from some anti-1911 Glockophile like some folks I hang out with] ;D
Laughed for 5 min straight. Needed that. Some people swear by Glocks, me....I swear AT them.
Then again, maybe there IS a reason there are no Glocks listed in GH (other than legal issues from a real company).
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Me, I've just never gotten into the "Ford v. Chevy" mentality of it all. Brand rivalries don't make much sense to me. Shoot what you like, be a good, safe, shot with it, and let's all just get along, y'know?
I own a Glock, I've got my fair share of posts on Glocktalk.com, but I don't think more than a half dozen of them have been about Glocks. I'm not a "Glock guy," I'm just a guy that happens to have gotten a good deal on a Glock when I was shoppin' for a first handgun. I'm jonesing for a 1911 lately, and the way some people carry on, you'd think that if I let the two guns touch, the matter/anti-matter reaction would make the friggin' world explode.
I do what I can in Shadowrun to play up the "Ares Predator vs. Browning ___-Power" line wars, though. Because as brand loyal as some folks can be today, they really are brand wars -- literally! -- in the 2050s-2070s. I created, but unfortunately never got to run, a character that was a total Ares fanboy. A dangerous mamajama, lethal shooter, otherwise very professional, competent, skilled, you name it...but who had a minor Distinctive Style for being decked out, 24/7, in Ares gear. Ares this, Ares that, Ares-branded armor, all that sort of stuff. Vipers, Predators, Crusaders, Alphas, HVARs, and on and on and on...just always picking the Ares model from every list of guns (and if one didn't exist, creating one with the same stats as an existing piece, just for flavor).
Closest I ever got to getting to use him was with my Chase stories, but it's just not the same 'cause Chase is just a sell-out. This guy really meant it. Really believed in Ares stuff as superior. Ah well, he would'a been fun. 8)
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The Cola Wars were really nasty in the late 2060s-early 2070s. Many lives were lost...
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The Cola Wars were really nasty in the late 2060s-early 2070s. Many lives were lost...
WE DIDN'T START THE FI-RE!!!! It was alway's burnin' 'sence the world's been turnin'!! *hehehehehehe*
Sorry...*AHEM*
Me, I've just never gotten into the "Ford v. Chevy" mentality of it all. Brand rivalries don't make much sense to me. Shoot what you like, be a good, safe, shot with it, and let's all just get along, y'know?
I own a Glock, I've got my fair share of posts on Glocktalk.com, but I don't think more than a half dozen of them have been about Glocks. I'm not a "Glock guy," I'm just a guy that happens to have gotten a good deal on a Glock when I was shoppin' for a first handgun. I'm jonesing for a 1911 lately, and the way some people carry on, you'd think that if I let the two guns touch, the matter/anti-matter reaction would make the friggin' world explode.
I do what I can in Shadowrun to play up the "Ares Predator vs. Browning ___-Power" line wars, though. Because as brand loyal as some folks can be today, they really are brand wars -- literally! -- in the 2050s-2070s. I created, but unfortunately never got to run, a character that was a total Ares fanboy. A dangerous mamajama, lethal shooter, otherwise very professional, competent, skilled, you name it...but who had a minor Distinctive Style for being decked out, 24/7, in Ares gear. Ares this, Ares that, Ares-branded armor, all that sort of stuff. Vipers, Predators, Crusaders, Alphas, HVARs, and on and on and on...just always picking the Ares model from every list of guns (and if one didn't exist, creating one with the same stats as an existing piece, just for flavor).
Closest I ever got to getting to use him was with my Chase stories, but it's just not the same 'cause Chase is just a sell-out. This guy really meant it. Really believed in Ares stuff as superior. Ah well, he would'a been fun. 8)
Nice, knew a guy who did something similar in a Marvel game, he was the "first corporate sponsored super hero". Blasted costume looked like the hood of a NASCAR.
But me, I just like to poke fun at things, and Glock-fanboys are just SO DAMN EASY sometimes. I have a passion for my Springfield XD, so I can understand name brand loyalty (has an XD hat, multiple shirts, etc) I personally think that as long as the weapon performs as it should in your hand, good for you.
But as for the 1911/1991, I think that its a mystique thing because of the weapons history. We all like cool classic icons. Elvis, classic cars (insert type here), weapons, etc. Its like in Battletech (for those of you who know that game). Yeah, headcapping a 'mech with any other weapon is good and it gets the job done, but its just so much COOLER to do it with a Gauss Rifle. Specific weapons in SR have that mystique about them that can never be changed. Gun Haven tapped into that with the 1991.
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The Colt Peacemaker and Winchester '73. The Thompson (all models) and M1 Garand. The M1911 and Browning High Power (First of the Wonder Nines!). The AK-family. The MP-5. The Glock family. And so on. Iconic all of them.
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The Colt Peacemaker and Winchester '73. The Thompson (all models) and M1 Garand. The M1911 and Browning High Power (First of the Wonder Nines!). The AK-family. The MP-5. The Glock family. And so on. Iconic all of them.
*points to post with "TA-DA!" flourish*
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I want stats for a Peacemaker now.
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Meh. Just use stats from an existing revolver (but make sure the number of shots is right), and call it a day. Have Ares or someone doing a special anniversary edition throwback design, and voila. Game on!
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Colt still owns itself. :P
And the Peacemaker is still made today, after all. No reason to think it'd go out of production any time soon.
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Meh. Just use stats from an existing revolver (but make sure the number of shots is right), and call it a day. Have Ares or someone doing a special anniversary edition throwback design, and voila. Game on!
Looks like a Peacemaker, feels like a Peacemaker, shoots like a Peacemaker, but made of "modern" metals and materials.
"Legacy Series" anyone, by Ares Arms in conjunction with Colt Manufacturing. (or just BY Colt)
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Me, I've just never gotten into the "Ford v. Chevy" mentality of it all. Brand rivalries don't make much sense to me. Shoot what you like, be a good, safe, shot with it, and let's all just get along, y'know?
In SR2 I just generated a bunch of names, so that the Ares ABC was the same as the Browning ZYX was the same as the Colt 123, etc. Seemed to work okay, and gave the in-game gun characters something "new" to play with (with some of them I made some of the fluff-talk like SSC had).
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I have never suggested more realism on the combat system. I have argued against it in several threads.
I simply wish they would get their basic vocabulary right. When I write, I fact check. *shrug*
I seriously doubt that calling a magazine a magazine, or classifying carbines as rifles, would drive anyone from the game. As was said by Fastjack awhile back - there's two kinds of people, those who know the difference, and those who don't care. Getting the basic terminology correct can really only help you, in that case.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
And I'd like Hollywood to depict hacking as boring as it is, not a bunch of fashion-model teenagers with Flash-based hacking programs. My point earlier was that the common gamer really just doesn't care if it's called a magazine, a clip or Aunt Susie's petunias. 9 times out of 10, they are going to just say "I'm reloading!". And if they do say the wrong thing, and the GM spends even a minute correcting them on the fact that they said the wrong thing, the player begins to have less fun.
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Dead Horse, guys.
Anyone make good use of the Gun Haven Heaven guns in game yet? I kept my street sammie pinned down with the duel clip assault rifle on a drone.
You mean "dual magazine." ;)
I always considered the Colt Govt 2066 to be the new 1911.
The 1911 is a classic, a work of art. I love them. I used to think Glocks were ugly, utilitarian, and clunky by comparison. Then I was taught combat shooting vs target shooting, and watched 1911s malfunction in conditions where Glocks were happy as pigs in slop.
I still believe that every shooter should own a 1911...but I know a lot of guys who have some of the nicest tactical 1911s ever made that carry Glocks by choice...or S&W MPs, which are sort of like Glocks with fashion sense.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I have never suggested more realism on the combat system. I have argued against it in several threads.
I simply wish they would get their basic vocabulary right. When I write, I fact check. *shrug*
I seriously doubt that calling a magazine a magazine, or classifying carbines as rifles, would drive anyone from the game. As was said by Fastjack awhile back - there's two kinds of people, those who know the difference, and those who don't care. Getting the basic terminology correct can really only help you, in that case.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
And I'd like Hollywood to depict hacking as boring as it is, not a bunch of fashion-model teenagers with Flash-based hacking programs. My point earlier was that the common gamer really just doesn't care if it's called a magazine, a clip or Aunt Susie's petunias. 9 times out of 10, they are going to just say "I'm reloading!". And if they do say the wrong thing, and the GM spends even a minute correcting them on the fact that they said the wrong thing, the player begins to have less fun.
I guess I must just be the inquisitive sort. If I were calling it the wrong thing, I would want to be corrected. *shrug* If the book was using he right names, it would be a non-issue...
Then again, my group consists of former military, a couple competition shooters, a weapon smith, a MiB, etc. Some of our players might actually be more heavily armed than their characters. I think a couple of them might actually be Metahuman, now that I think about it... ??? I may have a slightly skewed perspective.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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There's glory for you!
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Meh. Just use stats from an existing revolver (but make sure the number of shots is right), and call it a day. Have Ares or someone doing a special anniversary edition throwback design, and voila. Game on!
Cavalier Arms does things like this one a regular basis. Now that they're free of NeoNET...well, it could get interesting.
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I always considered the Colt Govt 2066 to be the new 1911.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Yeah, a lot of my group is showering love all over it. Too bad I can't get a game going. For my characters, I add a integrated Silencer, Laser Sight, and a TacLight and have myself one fine piece of gunmetal!Cavalier Arms does things like this one a regular basis. Now that they're free of NeoNET...well, it could get interesting.
And you'd know this, how? You're dead, remember? Or... Are you? :o
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Cavalier Arms does things like this one a regular basis. Now that they're free of NeoNET...well, it could get interesting.
And you'd know this, how? You're dead, remember? Or... Are you? :o
That would be cheating, I think.
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If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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A guy's got to have room for his secret schemes and plans, right?
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You mean "dual magazine." ;)
You mean dual detachable box magazine?
When someone says "clip," you know what they mean.
It's slang, man.
Language evolves despite what every gun nut on the planet might do to stop it. :P
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Not going to stop us, and we've proven it. :P At least we're not at the insane extremist bomb throwing stages yet. (Just Internet Trolling. Mine is a physical adept with a cyberarm, horns, and subdurmal bony deposits.).
One of my players went through Gun Haven Heaven with me with it on the Big Screen (I have mine set up as a second monitor ;D). Despite his lack of gun nuttiness, even he's going, "That... Doesn't work." on a lot of the new firearm designs. Some of the RL firearms did make him look sideways at the screen, however. So take that as you will.
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It's slang, man.
It's ignorance and laziness. Unfortunately, this just contributes to the cliche of the gamer.
Btw, this sin't about the evolution of language. That's just plain silly. It isn't evolution when there is a perfectly good word, that's an industry/ hobbyist standard and it's simply ignored by those too lazy to educate themselves.
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Cass, you're getting offensive again. Watch it.
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You mean "dual magazine." ;)
You mean dual detachable box magazine?
When someone says "clip," you know what they mean.
It's slang, man.
Language evolves despite what every gun nut on the planet might do to stop it. :P
True, but I still have to give my friends and the like a hard time about it because...they're my friends. If you can rag on your chums, who can you? That and on a semi-personal note, I have to keep in practice of calling them mags. Not because I am some kind of gun nut, but my superior officers and other officers are. Professionals can forgive non-professionals, but professionals (as in with mine and many other departments) are merciless on other supposed professionals.
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You see, I don't get that. Example:, a family member of mine is a drummer and plays with his band pretty regularly. The other night he started talking about stacks and this kind of PA and that kind of speaker...I didn't ask him to dumb it down. I asked questions so that I could follow his conversation. I listened and engaged so that I could understand. This isn't hard. Anyone with half an IQ point can look something up and find a plethora of information within seconds. So to me, if someone is offended by the insinuation that they refused to educate themselves on a matter, then the simple way to rectify that is to look it up. Learn before you speak (generally, not specifically as an intended target). The onus of your fee-fees is yours.
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Not everyone can learn the jargon for everything, nor take the time out to learn it either. In addition, there's also the combination of terms that mean different things depending on what you're talking about. (Hint: If you're in HR and are talking about "Networking" to a bunch of IT guys, they're going to be thinking something TOTALLY DIFFERENT!).
Finally, people think they have the terms right due to "learning" them from TV and Movies, as well as proper media sources like the news which is always well researched and opinionated. ::) (OK, OK, I'll be good.).
Cass, we're not going to win this fight. Pick your battles carefully.
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And, I think this discussion has run its course since it just the same things being said over and over again. Time to lock the thread.