Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rockopolis on <05-07-11/0752:20>
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I've been designing a mentat character, and I'd like to play one, but I'm a little dry on things to do with them, or things I can do with them.
I think with Exceptional Attribute, Genetic Optimization, maxed Cerebral Booster, and a hit of Psyche, I can hit 12 Logic; plus all of the Logic linked skill Augmentations, like Qualia or an Encephalon.
But I don't think I even understand what 12 Logic means, let alone what I'd do with it.
EDIT: If I understand the rules correctly, and you can use Logic in place of the Hacking (the chart indicated it was defaultable) skill (with the one point penalty for defaulting, then it is to your advantage to not know Hacking. "I cherish my lack of preconceived notions.".
Though I'll have to check which dice pool Augmentations apply to what.
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... I can't really imagine that kind of intelligence, but probably the guy would be smart enough to become a bazillionaire without having to risk his life running the shadows, despite any drawbacks he might suffer.
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EDIT: If I understand the rules correctly, and you can use Logic in place of the Hacking (the chart indicated it was defaultable) skill (with the one point penalty for defaulting, then it is to your advantage to not know Hacking. "I cherish my lack of preconceived notions.".
Though I'll have to check which dice pool Augmentations apply to what.
not really. you would default on Program rating minus one. There is however an optional rule to use Hacking+logic instead of Hacking+program
I have a high logic built here (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=34752&view=findpost&p=1060993). An Adept gunslinger/medic
otherwise, what Xzylvador said
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Should note that intelligence doesn't automatically equate to education or knowledge (although, yes, you do get massive points for knowledge skills), so there are plenty of circumstances in which our intrepid 12 INT character would be a runner.
That being said... some entertainment examples of what such a character might be able to accomplish:
The Pretender (someone who is capable of not just talking the talk when talking on an infiltration role, but walking the walk as well with only a minimal time for familiarization)
MacGuyver, or rather the guy he wants to be when he grows up (consider the kind of improvisational skills someone with that mental capacity could have... who needs to bring gear, just use what's on-site)
Nathan Ford of Leverage (this is the guy with The Plan... knows the full plan, all contingencies all the way down the regular and cyryllic alphabets (in the pilot ep, he gets down to plan J on their first job alone) and knows them for everyone on the team)
Nathan Stark of Eureka (the guy created a fully sentient AI housed in a body that passed perfectly for human by accident, and was more than functionally familiar with every single project and experiment in the place... and when he didn't know, it didnt' take him a lot of time to catch up... this is the kind of guy Xzylvador is talking about as far as not needing to be a runner, but I kinda think he'd still want to be, just for the fun of it)
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MacGuyver, or rather the guy he wants to be when he grows up (consider the kind of improvisational skills someone with that mental capacity could have... who needs to bring gear, just use what's on-site)
just get Jurryrigger and every technical skill at one, so you don't need to default (some you can't). remember, skill 1 means "has done it at least once before". Your guy could have a cool attitude of "well, I have seen helicopter before..I'm sure I can fix that one , too..."
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Someone with a logic 12 is definitely trans-sane. When you have an amateur knowledge of a subject like Quantum Physics, if anyone speaks to you about it intelligently without simplifying the concepts you don't understand. Now, someone with logic 12 would be babbling about the sentience of AI and their rate of cognition while ignoring syntax and using words from any language they knew that best described what they were trying to say.
People think he is crazy and no one can understand him without someone who synthesizes the information that the logic 12 is spouting out with a sort of Chinese Room scenario.
The logic 12 character would be a great runner who is a planner or hacker, but there would have to be someway for the other characters to understand him.
Peter Watts's Blindsight handles this problem.
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Blindsight is a great example - the way the main character handles detachment from the human race because of his cognitive abilities is the best part of the book. And the character would be having problems with everyday life and people being stupid... Thus, it's a really good idea for a reality-impaired character...
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Go so completely batdrek crazy that Nikola Tesla will invent a time machine just so that he can go, "Hey, you're giving a bad name to scientists! Try acting more like a normal human being!"
It might take him a week to develop and build. :P
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I'm liking the ideas, and yeah, whether attribute progression is linear or exponential, I can't imagine that amount of intelligence. I mean, when they're strong or fast, that's easy, but when they're smarter than you could hope to be.
Someone with that much Logic isn't really a playable character? Or at least it seems to move into houserules and 'use your judgement' territory.
Blindsight and the Chinese Room, I'll have to look into those.
Although I think the optional rule is to limit the Logic+Hacking rule to the program limit, I like the idea that they're doing it without a program. "What? Of course emulating technomancy is impossible, for you. Ba-zinga!"
I think it's funny, although I need to add Cereberal Boosters and recalculate when I get to my computer, that Im using standard ware and still have three and change essence left.
Motivation is a bit of a problem; this seems more like the person to hire (or manipulate) Shadowrunners if they have something they want done. I can only really think of arrogance or strained circumstances to see them doing it themselves.
More jokingly, they're doing it because Shadowrunners gain karma faster than anyone but Prime Runners.
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Hmm...I suppose, if nothing else, you could make money renting out comp time on your brain.
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Remember that mental ability is split into four Attributes. A high logic means you have superior analytical, mechanical, and information processing skills. But charisma is used for manipulating or mentally dominating people; intuition is used for observation, picking up clues, and acting on instinct; and willpower is used for resolve, determination, and the gumption to get things done.
Someone with high Logic, but average or lower in other mental attributes, would be gifted, but not mentally superior in every way. A high logic character would shine at quickly understanding complex concepts, and anything to do with fiddling with or fixing things - biotech, explosives, chemicals, and so on. You are best off getting a smattering of a lot of skills, because many logic skills can not be defaulted on.
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Makkie touched on this, but I would like to emphasis that you can't default to Logic while hacking. FAQs clears that up.
Computers are just running too fast for the brain, even a brain with a Logic of 12.
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"Well, after I solved the minor problems of the UCAS debt and the easy solution to the HMHVV..." :P
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"Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they tell me to [insert menial task here] . . . call that job satisfaction, cos I don't . . ."
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Well, I've heard about a Mind Over Matter Adept power several times...
With 12 logic, you could probably analyze thousands of recorded firefights to determine the statistically most advantageous positions and actions.
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Your character would be the most capable RPG player in history! Understand the most obscure systems; creating and calculating characters in less than an hour in most of them!
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Your character would be the most capable RPG player in history! Understand the most obscure systems; creating and calculating characters in less than an hour in most of them!
Ya WOW a person that could GM Rolemaster Standard system from memory rather then looking up tables
<-- Brain explodes
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Your character would be the most capable RPG player in history! Understand the most obscure systems; creating and calculating characters in less than an hour in most of them!
Ya WOW a person that could GM Rolemaster Standard system from memory rather then looking up tables
<-- Brain explodes
I dunno... sounds a bit of a strech. ::)
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Remember that mental ability is split into four Attributes. A high logic means you have superior analytical, mechanical, and information processing skills. But charisma is used for manipulating or mentally dominating people; intuition is used for observation, picking up clues, and acting on instinct; and willpower is used for resolve, determination, and the gumption to get things done.
Someone with high Logic, but average or lower in other mental attributes, would be gifted, but not mentally superior in every way. A high logic character would shine at quickly understanding complex concepts, and anything to do with fiddling with or fixing things - biotech, explosives, chemicals, and so on. You are best off getting a smattering of a lot of skills, because many logic skills can not be defaulted on.
Regardless of this, the character would think differently than others because of his analytic and processing skills. He would have to process information in a way better than humans do and he would analyze information in a more efficient way. Perceiving the world in a radically different way than humans would give the character a drastically different input and output than everyone with 6 or below Logic. 6 Logic is the meat human maximum for empirical thought. Raising it to 12 would just make you beyond everything else.
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Doctor Manhattan, you mean?
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Or any other superhuman insufferable genius that can barely relate to the rest of humanity because they're too stupid.
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Or any other superhuman insufferable genius that can barely relate to the rest of humanity because they're too stupid.
So, it's Sheldon (of Big Bang theory).
Sen-frickin'-sational....
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Doctor Manhattan, you mean?
Kind of, Doc Manhattan is underplayed by Moore as an alien mind. His time-speak antics (Rorschach, I am speaking to Laurie in twelve seconds) plays with the idea.
Something you could play with though is a lack of free will. You'd have to choose the scope that the character cares about of course. This ties in with intuition and willpower and could be a good place for character development and karma. If you are an essentially logical person, how could you choose to do something illogical? Should BrainCase turn around and save his runner friend who is under fire? BrainCase knows that he could probably get to the runner and inject a stim that would help him ignore his pain and get out—but Case could, very likely, get shot and die and not complete the current mission. This could expand so that the character has contacts and plans in motion.
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The more I think about it, the more I know what I'd do with a 12 Logic character...have a headache. Man, thinking is hard.
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Or any other superhuman insufferable genius that can barely relate to the rest of humanity because they're too stupid.
So, it's Sheldon (of Big Bang theory).
Sen-frickin'-sational....
I've never heard of Autism being described as sensational.
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Or any other superhuman insufferable genius that can barely relate to the rest of humanity because they're too stupid.
So, it's Sheldon (of Big Bang theory).
Sen-frickin'-sational....
I've never heard of Autism being described as sensational.
I've never thought of Sheldon as autistic; he's more of a high-functioning ego-maniac ;)
In my experience autism sufferers are not PhD holding genii who belittle those around them (including other PhD-wielding academics) for being incompetent. Some have definitely been niche-specific higher-functioning individuals, but stereotypically confused by social interactions or emotion (leaving most very shy and quietly guarded).
Sheldon certainly doesn't fall any shy or quiet labels!
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Labels are for people who lack the intelligence or imagination to understand just how diverse and interesting the world really is.
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Labels will tell you what's in a can, but not how it tastes.
Maybe they are used dismissively at times, but we all use them.
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Whoa, I just noticed SURGE's Metagenic Improvement stacks with Genetic Optimization and Exceptional Attribute. If I wanted to be even cheesier, it looks like I could push logic to 13. Time to change the thread title.
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I've never thought of Sheldon as autistic; he's more of a high-functioning ego-maniac ;)
In my experience autism sufferers are not PhD holding genii who belittle those around them (including other PhD-wielding academics) for being incompetent. Some have definitely been niche-specific higher-functioning individuals, but stereotypically confused by social interactions or emotion (leaving most very shy and quietly guarded).
Sheldon certainly doesn't fall any shy or quiet labels!
You've never heard of Temple Grandin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin)
Most autistic individuals, particularly those with Asperger Syndrome, don't understand social interaction, but each individual's reaction to that is specific. Many I've known personally are neither shy nor reserved, but can dominate an entire evenings conversation without realizing others aren't interested. Others are incredibly quite and curt.
It's not that the Sheldon character doesn't want to understand people, he can't. What is and is not socially acceptable is explained and reiterated multiple times, but despite having an incredible cognitive ability, he just can't understand. That's autism.
That isn't a necessarily a bad thing. Dr. Grandin tells a great story(if you ever get to hear her speak, please do) about two autistic friends of hers whose ideal romantic evening is a dinner at their favorite restaurant and a night discussing physics. That's what they like and they wouldn't have it any other way. It's as valid as any other lifestyle. When she talks of her own life, she says avoiding romance was something she choose rather than something that was forced upon her.
That being said, growing up and living with autism provides a number of challenges and hardships I wouldn't want to have faced.
The way the normal human brain works, having a cognitive ability large enough detracts from other parts of the brain. You only have so many points to spend in mental attributes, as it were. That's why IQs at a certain level of curvature start to show a substantial increase of cases with autism.
In the future, with cyberware and what not, we might have found a way to circumvent this problem, but I think a Logic of 13 should be played with that in mind.
Maybe less Rainman and more Abed, though.
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Sheldon's never struck me as autistic. It's not that he can't understand the social aspects of the human race, it's that he doesn't want to understand them. A big difference. It's not a failure of comprehension of the rules and mores, but a total lack of interest in spending any time on them when he rather build robots and postulate theories.
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Why are we, as humans and as a society, so fascinated by building better robots?
Because we can't build better humans, that's why . .
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Thank you, Stahl. I couldn't agree with you more.
Except that we're making WORSE humans. :'(
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Really, FJ?
The character doesn't understand sarcasm, yet tries to understand sarcasm in multiple story lines, going so far as to ask when he did and did not get it right.
There are at least half a dozen episodes whose main plot is about Sheldon actively trying to understand why people are doing something, yet failing in this endeavor.
He doesn't understand that bullion cubes is not an acceptable substitute for tea when out of tea.
He throws out food he wants because Monday is not the day he eats that food.
When he insults someone, he is honestly baffled as to why they are insulted because, to him, he has said nothing wrong; only something factual.
He is asexual.
These are all pretty good indicators of autism.
If Sheldon was just a jerk, it wouldn't be funny. Then the show would be about the life and times of a narcissist. While there are moments of that, if Sheldon was completely self absorbed and rude while knowing what he was doing was unacceptable behavior, yet choosing to do it anyway, he would be completely unrelatable. A villain, like the guy with the lisp.
Instead, he as a blundering genius. An absent minded professor, childlike in his misunderstanding of human foibles. He often acts and is treated like a child by the other characters, and is forgiven of his megalomania as one would forgive a child.
He and Abed are also some of the few characters on TV that those with autism can relate to. I can't imagine watching television or films for decades and not seeing anyone like me or even a passing reference to me.
Then again, I'm a white, heterosexual, American, age 18-35. Everyone on TV is like me!
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Sorry, but what is Abed from?
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Really, FJ?
The character doesn't understand sarcasm, yet tries to understand sarcasm in multiple story lines, going so far as to ask when he did and did not get it right.
There are at least half a dozen episodes whose main plot is about Sheldon actively trying to understand why people are doing something, yet failing in this endeavor.
*snip*
If Sheldon was just a jerk, it wouldn't be funny. Then the show would be about the life and times of a narcissist. While there are moments of that, if Sheldon was completely self absorbed and rude while knowing what he was doing was unacceptable behavior, yet choosing to do it anyway, he would be completely unrelatable. A villain, like the guy with the lisp.
Instead, he as a blundering genius. An absent minded professor, childlike in his misunderstanding of human foibles. He often acts and is treated like a child by the other characters, and is forgiven of his megalomania as one would forgive a child.
We're devolving a bit from thread, but it's still interesting.
Sheldon really doesn't qualify as Autistic. OCD with social issues? Oh absolutely, to the nth degree (There are two diagnosed OCD cases in my family...and I'm pretty close to the line :P )
I did read about Temple Grandin as per your previous comment. Was a very good reference, so thank you for that education. Again, Sheldon doesn't qualify, and there are some big differences:
- Sensory overload. This is a regular indication of autism, requiring almost a shut-down and reboot (blocking ears, dissociation, hug machine etc). Sheldon enjoys Paintball, Halo and other exciting releases which are in direct conflict with autism symptoms.
- Competitiveness. Sheldon has to win, always, and prove he's the best. Austism sufferers do not normally relate to such egotistic influences (and when he realises he can't do something, like drive a car, he rationalises it's because he's 'too evolved'...)
Where there are similarities:
- Sheldon and temple both find socialising 'boring'. However, Sheldon is sometimes fascinated by people's responses. This however, is sociopathy, not autism (especially when he deliberately provokes emotional responses to see what would happen)
- Sheldon and Temple both enjoy science fiction (however Sheldon then emulates and roleplays such diversions, like his Flash costumes and antics). An autism sufferer would be incredibly unlikely to be so shameless and extroverted.
Sheldon is likely an Obsessive Compulsive Ego-Maniac with sociopathic tendencies. Some symptoms of these issues align with those of Autism, however Sheldon just isn't suffering from that condition.
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Autism sufferers do not all fall into one particular category of behavior. There is a spectrum and variance within that spectrum. Many are both competitive and enjoy physical activity.
While there are things he does that do not correspond with some autistic behaviors, there are far more things he does that do; which is often how the disease is diagnosed. It isn't "autistic people don't do A, subject does A, therefore the subject doesn't have autism." It is "autistic people do B, subject does B, therefore subject is displaying one aspect of autism." If the subject does enough of B, then that is traditionally how the subject is diagnosed.
Narcissism, OCPD and sociopathy are all behaviors associated with autism. It is extremely rare to have all three and not be diagnosed at some level of Autism scale.
I can go on about this all day, so I'll let some of the other theories about this sink in.
*The co-creator of the show, Bill Prady, says he didn't intend for the character to have Aspergers, but based him on a programmer he used to know and inserted this guy's quirks into the character. As to whether those quirks belong to someone who has autism, Prady claims he doesn't know. Prady has also stated that he isn't particularly familiar with the disease either.
*Jim Parson, the actor who plays him(native Texan, too!) has said that Sheldon couldn't display more facets of Aspergers. He claims that many of the aspects that affect the way he plays Sheldon come from a memoir about life with autism.
*The character has also been examined by doctors and other professionals that point out that while a sitcom can't diagnose a disease, he displays to many behavioral similarities to those suffering from autism that can't be ignored.
Now I understand why they can't just come out and say it on the show like Community did with Abed, because once you diagnose a character with a disease it dehumanizes the other guys when they rag on him about his quirks and then the show is less funny. It's often said that since his mother didn't have him diagnosed, neither do the writers.
However, on many blogs and forums about living with Autism, people fraggin' LOVE Sheldon. They completely identify him with themselves or their loved ones and couldn't be more pleased about seeing someone like them on television after decades of ignoring the disease.
So I shall take their word for it above all others.
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Autism sufferers do not all fall into one particular category of behavior. There is a spectrum and variance within that spectrum. Many are both competitive and enjoy physical activity.
I enjoyed reading your whole post, but it was too big to repost :)
Personally, I find the trend of labelling autism (and aspergers syndrome) to such a wide spectrum actually a really insulting concept.
The analytical process of: 'autistic people do B, subject does B, therefore subject is displaying one aspect of autism' is incredibly flawed.
This is exactly the same as: 'violent people breathe air, subject breathes air, therefore subject is displaying one aspect of violence.
Autism like any illness, has a checklist of symptoms, many of which are inter-related and graded accordingly to be listed on the afore-mentioned spectrum and variance. To simply pick and choose a couple and say 'Subject is demonstrating an aspect of autism' is especially devaluing to real autism sufferers.
Every high-intellect individual I've ever met has some quirk or fascination which they're passionate about. One engineer in particular is very much ADHD (and takes ultra-high caffeine doses to calm down...think about that). He most definitely does not suffer from any Autism/Aspergers syndrome, however he shares many, many traits with Sheldon.
The beauty of the Sheldon-character (for which he is both loved and awarded in his field) is that many, many people can relate to him. Even complete non-academics can empathise with the attitude of 'I'm right, and people should listen to me more. Everyone should just get out of my way now.
I love Sheldon. Autistic people love Sheldon. Am I now displaying an aspect of Autism?
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I applauded both of you because this is a terrific debate (even though it's very off-topic). Autism, like many psychological theories rely mostly in the eye of the beholder and the person being diagnosed. I look back on my growing up and realize that if many of today's ideas were in effect when I was younger, I would have been diagnosed with attention-deficiency (and a couple of other things) because I spent more time in my classes doing other things since I was "ahead" of my classmates.
The autism debate is also a very "hot-button" topic, on many different levels, so I'm hoping the "is he/isn't he" debate about Sheldon remains civil and we all agree that we can disagree on the issue. With that being said, I think we should let the topic get back on course. If you want, I can split this discussion off on its own to see where it goes, but I'm not sure we could explore the subject more than we have already done.
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Finally defeat Superman.
But seriously, 12 to 13 logic seems like a lot and to me someone with that much logic would be a Steven Hawking or something. Unless he had a severe thrill seeker mentality he would be a world changing scientist or something rather than a shadowrunner.
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I don't want to make the subject keep wandering to other valleys, but I must congratulate Charybdis and Fortinbras for the discussion. I'm a psychology student (almost graduated), and it's difficult to see this kind of open-minded discussion at university itself. It's was really nice to read all that.
Back to the Logic 12/13 character... Redwulfe comment reminded me about the Red Son comics... Think Luthor or Brainiac behavior in this particular story, and you have a interesting model...
And once again, back to the difficulties of being a super-intellect and having to deal with social situations, I have to disagree with social problems being that natural. Thinking about the division in Mental attributes in Shadowrun, I imagine that someone with an average Intuition can at least create a inner model of the values and concepts that someone uses to understand the world, so it would be strange if the character in question would have an incapability to deal with people. The question is, understanding is not approving, and he probably would find people boring and childish. But then, it's a matter of choice treating them in any way according to this judgements.
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this really hits the nail on the head. We are looking at the character from the standpoint of a single stat, not from the character as a whole withouth other attributes and qualities how can you really say "this is the way it would be played."
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What about Brainiac 5 from Legion of Super-Heroes? Good or Bad example?
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I don't want to make the subject keep wandering to other valleys, but I must congratulate Charybdis and Fortinbras for the discussion. I'm a psychology student (almost graduated), and it's difficult to see this kind of open-minded discussion at university itself. It's was really nice to read all that.
I applauded both of you because this is a terrific debate (even though it's very off-topic). Autism, like many psychological theories rely mostly in the eye of the beholder and the person being diagnosed. I look back on my growing up and realize that if many of today's ideas were in effect when I was younger, I would have been diagnosed with attention-deficiency (and a couple of other things) because I spent more time in my classes doing other things since I was "ahead" of my classmates.
The autism debate is also a very "hot-button" topic, on many different levels, so I'm hoping the "is he/isn't he" debate about Sheldon remains civil and we all agree that we can disagree on the issue. With that being said, I think we should let the topic get back on course. If you want, I can split this discussion off on its own to see where it goes, but I'm not sure we could explore the subject more than we have already done.
Glad you liked :)
I'm certain we can all keep it civil :P There's a history of mental illness in my family... (and yes, I find that actually very funny when people start looking at me curiously ;))
However I don't think Autism needs a new split topic for further discussion. I'm happy to get back to the OP thread :)
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There was a Star Trek:TNG episode where Reg was gifted with supernatural mental abilities.
While his intelligence (and equivalent Logic stat) went off the scale, that in itself wasn't enough.
His creativity (Intuition) was likewise enhanced, as well as his self-confidence (Willpower) and social interaction (Charisma)
In that episode, he performed amazing feats of engineering, invention and brought Dr.Krusher to tears with his acting ability (while making a very successful pass at Deanna Troy).
However, my point here is that his full-suite of mental faculties were enhanced. He couldn't have performed the engineering feats he did (Logic based) without the creativity to think of them (Intuition).
Without knowing what other stats this logic 12/13 PC may have at their disposal, it's hard to know what they'll be capable of...
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Umm...I'm actually shifting away from using the hardmaxed Mentat, but even then, I still had a four in Intuition and a three in Willpower and Charisma. And I think I accidentally included some Intuition Geneware in the original build.
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One of the things muddying the issue of how powerful a high Logic is, is that there are a lot of mental qualities (and adept powers) that don't really tie into the Logic rating. Someone with analytical mind, photographic memory, and linguist may seem more intelligent, even if his Logic is only 3 or 4. And adepts are even more so. Someone with eidetic sense memory, linguistics, and multi-tasking will seem like a super-genius; he has perfect recall, can watch several trideo programs simultaneously, and learns new languages almost instantly. And the annoying thing is, hard-maxing Logic means forgoing some of the other qualities that would fit a high Logic character.
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How well does Logic the stat translate to IQ the rating?
Also, it makes a difference what the player has the character CHOOSE to know about - science/arts/legal/street/etc . . . .
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One of the things muddying the issue of how powerful a high Logic is, is that there are a lot of mental qualities (and adept powers) that don't really tie into the Logic rating. Someone with analytical mind, photographic memory, and linguist may seem more intelligent, even if his Logic is only 3 or 4. And adepts are even more so. Someone with eidetic sense memory, linguistics, and multi-tasking will seem like a super-genius; he has perfect recall, can watch several trideo programs simultaneously, and learns new languages almost instantly. And the annoying thing is, hard-maxing Logic means forgoing some of the other qualities that would fit a high Logic character.
I understand what you're saying, and see why you'd think that, but depending on the GM this isn't necessarily so.
Eidetic sense memory, multitasking: The logic 12 character can probably just buy enough hits to remember anything worth remembering, solve any puzzle or automatically succeed any concentration threshold for multitasking. Let's say 13 logic (incl. bonus to logic based tests) and 3 willpower: 16 dice can buy 4 hits, rolling is average 5+.
Learning languages wouldn't have the magical super boost, but there too the high logic character has a dicepool 3 or 4 times higher than any "normal" person.
Of course a lot depends on the GM; but that's the case for most of those tests anyways.
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One big thing about having such a high logic is that you have an extremely large dice pool even when defaulting on knowledge skills. With a 13 logic, you're rolling 12 dice on any academic or professional knowledge skill. That's as good as a high logic PhD (6 logic + 6 skill). With some logic dice pool enhancers, you can buy the hits to know intricate knowledge of whatever topic.
While I don't believe you're some sort of superhuman intelligence, you are a omnidisciplinary master. You're more Reed Richards than Dr. Manhattan, crazy good and able to know whatever you need to know, but still recognizable to whatever experts in the field. You won't know anything about life on the street or languages since those are intuition based but whatever.
You also have an amazing resistance to mental addiction so have fun with BTLs. If you're a member of a logic tradition, you can easily have a good drain check so you can enjoy high drain spells and summon high force spirits. I'm playing a mind over matter base 11 logic 12 buffed gnome qabalah mystic adept right now and he's a blast to play.
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From a purely mechanical point of view, the thing to do with a super logic character would be to buy up most of the logic skills. With even a one or two in the skill you would still have a dicepool that would exceed most "experts". The one area that this would not work well would be matrix, as many hacking/online tasks end up being skill+program rather than skill+stat. Still, you could have a full suite of mechanical/science/medical/technical skills. You wouldn't be a hacker, but you would be able to build, repair, or patch up just about anything or anyone. How well this would work in over the table play is very campaign dependant. In combat/infultration heavy campaigns you are pretty much limited to opening the maglocks with Hardware and patching up the wounded. ButiIf you have a good GM that takes the characters into consideration and makes sure there are things your character can do to contribute it should be a viable build.
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Just skimming along the text, so maybe this has been mentioned, but if you look at history, you will see several examples of no matter how intelligent a person was (DaVinci and Tesla) the "technology interfaces and resources" of that time held many of these geniuses back from realizing their thoughts beyond diagrams and math--a mere shadow of the real thing.
How presumptuous would we be to think of the Shadowrun world as the absolute highest point in technology?
I think it would be fair to consider a character with a super-high logic to be limited in faculty likewise. Knowledge-based skills, and photographic memory not-with-standing, of course.
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Just skimming along the text, so maybe this has been mentioned, but if you look at history, you will see several examples of no matter how intelligent a person was (DaVinci and Tesla) the "technology interfaces and resources" of that time held many of these geniuses back from realizing their thoughts beyond diagrams and math--a mere shadow of the real thing.
How presumptuous would we be to think of the Shadowrun world as the absolute highest point in technology?
I think it would be fair to consider a character with a super-high logic to be limited in faculty likewise. Knowledge-based skills, and photographic memory not-with-standing, of course.
A) You're absolutely right. Even in the world of shadowrun, there will be technological limitations. However, as with these geniuses in the past, this Logic 12'ish PC could be the one to make the technological leaps forward. Seriously, such a PC is likely to be headhunted if word got out just how clever they were.
B) I disagree that a super-high logic PC needs to be in any way limited by faculty. From a PC-Balance perspective, you just can't get 10's in all your mental attributes, so while other mental abilities will be diminshed by comparison, they can still be well above average (4-5's). So I wouldn't call these limited at all...
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However, as with these geniuses in the past, this Logic 12'ish PC could be the one to make the technological leaps forward.
Ah, yes, but WHO has the TIME? ...or the inclination! ;)
Thanks for the constructive feedback!
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Good points.
On the other hand, knowsofts and datasofts are affordable, and if I can get my hands on some desktop forges or nanoforges, I can create the technology interfaces and resources needed. I can build things for which the science to develop them does not yet exist...
Perhaps this thread would have been better titled "What Couldn't You do with 13 Logic?"
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Good points.
On the other hand, knowsofts and datasofts are affordable, and if I can get my hands on some desktop forges or nanoforges, I can create the technology interfaces and resources needed. I can build things for which the science to develop them does not yet exist...
Perhaps this thread would have been better titled "What Couldn't You do with 13 Logic?"
I don't have my books handy, but can you tell me if Skillwires can give technical skills?
If so, imagine an absolute genius with a bank of Technical Skillsofts.... seriously, any Corp would kill to get this guy.... Instant genius for any R&D project....
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Yeah, Active Skillsofts (with Skillwires) do give technical skills. It does seem odd that your own (giga-genius) Logic would be added to that, though. Maybe you're patching it on the fly?
A Knowsoft doesn't require 'wires, but it's still preprogrammed.
This character might just do best with Datasofts?
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You could chop someone into ribbons. With your Mind! And a sword.
The Really Sharp Sword, a Rank II Weapon Focus Monofilament Sword deals (STR/2 +3)P damage. It has -3 AP and a reach of one.
I believe I'm rolling...11(AgilityLogic)+1(Personalized Grip)+2(Weapon Focus)=13 Dice+(1Reach)+1(Psyche)=15 Dice. On my character it's only 4P base damage.
:oThe Really Sharp Sword indeed. Still, I believe if you need to use it, you probably screwed up really really badly somewhere along the way. Speaking of screwing up badly, I think I roll 12 Dice on a full defense, which doesn't seem too shabby.
I guess the style would be...what, poking them in that glaringly obvious hole in their defenses? Stabbing them in the pressure point that makes their head explode?
By the way, I bet with 13 Logic you could think of a better, hopefully punny name for the sword, like Razor Wit or something.
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Okay, now it's getting to be seriously crazy, but fazzamar pointed out I could hit 15 as a Pixie.
Dunklezhan's ghostly corpse, pixies are a far greater threat than I'd thought! I've got to
Pixies are harmless and friendly. The Red Cap Killer is just an urban legend tying together a string of unrelated unfortunate accidents.
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but you need Deltaware Cerebralboosters for Critters...Have a look at Vampires and Nosferatu. They should be about the same.
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So the Red Cap Killer is a Pixie Cyberzombie? Frakking terrifying.
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but you need Deltaware Cerebralboosters for Critters...Have a look at Vampires and Nosferatu. They should be about the same.
I thought the Deltaware requirement was only for Critters with 'Regeneration'?
I know very little about pixies, but I'm pretty sure they're not THAT cheesy :P
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All Sapient Critters need Deltaware too.
Take it one step further. Boost ALL the pixie's mental stats as much as you can, and shove it into a custom rigger cocoon shaped like a CCU, and install into a Tomino*.
See if it makes your players pee their pants.
-k
* - Yes, I have a slight obsession with this concept
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You sir, are mad. I like it.
It's Tinkerbell! For whom does the bell toll? It's tolls for thee, chummer!
Hmm...too bad Logic (System) doesn't do much for Technomancers. In game mechanic terms, at least. Especially since they'd need an equally absurd amount of Intuition (Response).