Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Arkangel on <05-05-11/1021:46>
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Since it is VERY difficult (for me, both financially and practically) to get my hands on any Shadowrun minis - or cyberpunk related ones - I was going to use sticky-backed magnet sheets and paste pictures of shadowrunners to it in lieu of using miniatures.
The issue is that I really don't want to sift through images one at a time saving and cropping the ones I want (I'll do it, but I would rather avoid it if possible). Does anyone know of a place where I could get some decent quality pics for this kind of use?
Many Thanks,
Arkangel
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I've used these (http://shadowrun.colugo.org/images/) for our game's website.
I also recommend a google image search for <what you want> + shadowrun and a similar search at deviantart.com. Deviant Art is less likely to "shadowrun" in any given search, but if you do a straight search for the word you get a lot of hits from a lot of good artists.
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I would have to second the Deviantart.com recommendation. You might not find something under Shdowrun, but if you start playing around with different serches, you will likely find what you are looking for.
Of course...that won't stop the need for cropping...but you'll find some good stuff.
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I know I've been a broken record on this lately, but have you considered not using miniatures?
Miniatures came to the forefront as the borders between war gaming and role playing games was much more blurred than they are now. So much so that the most recent edition of DnD makes playing without miniatures impossible. But what miniatures do is give your players and you a perfect sense of what is happening in every inch of the map at all times. It helps calculate range penalties and keep track of who has taken the most hits. It has it's uses, but do you really need it in a game like Shadowrun?
Even in combat, the player doesn't know where everything is on the board. It's the fog of war which causes them to forget who took a hit how many bullets last go. They forget who is 15 meters away and who is 14 meters away. It reduces the role of the player to a soldier and not a general, something miniatures were supposed to emulate. To give every player complete mastery over the field of combat turns Shadowrun into a game of tactics and dice, something it was never meant to be.
Foregoing miniatures also keeps the player engaged. With a board and pewter, inbetween turns the player can mess around on their phone, look up stats in a book, go get something to eat, etc. When their turn comes around, a few minor questions brings them up to speed on all they need to know, the numbers. This is how a general conducts a war, not how a soldier fights it. While this can not only be frustrating to a GM who spent hours developing this world, it mean your player reduces his character to resources to be spent, rather than a flesh and blood metahuman in a fight for his life. When he is shot, he acts as if he has lost a resources, X number of Health boxes. The same reaction as if he lost a certain amount of ammo or a Spirit service, rather than behaving as if he were fraggin' shot.
To go without miniatures forces the player to pay attention to the world you created, knowing that missing a detail is missing an edge in combat. Again, how a soldier fights. Relying on only himself and his squad to convey info. This makes for a more memorable and engaging conflict that will be remembered as "That time we fought for our lives..." rather than "That time we beat the mission."
I could go on all day about the mechanical and associative disconnect created by miniatures, but ask why they are even necessary before bogging yourself down financially with them. Try a few games with nothing more than a rough pencil sketch of the area. I think you'll find that in a system like Shadowrun, working without miniatures isn't just applicable, it turns the whole game around.
Save your money.
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Deviant Art!!! The place has some of the baddest shadowrun shit!!!
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I know I've been a broken record on this lately, but have you considered not using miniatures?
Agreed. In my RPG career (can it be called a career?) I've never used minis. They detract from what is going on. We may have a map on graphpaper or a floor plan with squiggles to represent runners and goons, but the abstract nature of it warrants that the PCs pay attention and get into the role of a runner: using their instincts.
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I agree, i think minis really mess with your imagination. I mean a really cool looking mini is great to show people what you feel your char looks like, but playing with them as marker on a board i think can detract. The best thing I like having is that perfect picture/artwork that paints a scene or person with just the texture and feel i'm looking for. The best moments in rpg's are very similar to the best moments when you're playing with a band.....that moment when everybody is on the same page....everyone is contributing to the same texture...that same feel that everyone is digging. That's the best feeling on earth.
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I think miniatures are great for games that are designed for them, and with both me and my gaming group having a wargaming background, we appreciate taking the time to find the right figure and get it painted up.
That said, I've really not gotten the feel that Shadowrun is the same way. I ran a demo game with them with a simple board and map, but I think I would like to move away from that and into a more abstract system, break any reliance that might be developing.
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Thanks for the site suggestions.
As for the topic of using minis or not using minis, I think it comes down to personal taste. Also, let's not make the use of figs an absolute either. For example, you may use figs for combat, but maybe not vehicle chases or vehicle combat (where the need to be abstract adds to the fun). SR4 lends itself well to either style of play. As a freelance RPG writer, I have seen (and written) many systems where miniature use is built into the system from the ground up, or put in ad-hoc. Old time Shadowrun players may recall the boxed set, DMZ: Downtown Militarized Zone. That was FASA's version of the Shadowrun miniatures game. With some adaptation you could turn the dots on the map to inches (or centimeters) and build terrain and so forth. It was a bust in that regard because Shadowrun isn't a wargame.
I went for sometime without using miniatures (mainly because there weren't any for a while until Grenadier came out with theirs and then Ral Partha took over). SR1 and SR2 combat took forever...making fig use relatively moot. Then came SR3 with a more streamlined system, but by that point the die was cast and minis were used in all of our games. Now, if you don't have room or maybe you're thinking you can't paint, you can always use sticky-backed magnet sheets and stick pictures to them. If it works for you to not use figs, I seriously doubt anyone is going to kick in your door and demand you use them. :o
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Ok, gonna state this now... if someone comes on asking about minis, it is not your job to threadcrap and go on about not using minis. Especially if you already think you've gotten repetitive about it. If you want your own thread about not using minis, please feel free. Otherwise, let people play the game the way they want, they'll come visit your opinion without you having to give it if they want, if you have your own thread
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So far, I have two minis, neither of which has seen use yet... One is a fan piece done of Nas from my Fan Fiction. The other I was using as a visual aid as to what a Lone Star SWAT Team Member looks like.
If any of my game prospects come available, I might get more made up. I already found the Minis for them, just need to commission them to be bought and painted.
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The fig you picked out for the accountant, CanRay, is awesome! I hope to give you a chance to use it in June... even if there aren't any maps on the table. We all love our miniatures.
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I hope I get to game, period.
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...I think it comes down to personal taste.
I used minis from time to time. first my players got "their" character mini (choosen and painted by their own), which got them a better connection to the PC
second, minis helped my group to get better organized in special situations like ambushes, street fights, ect. I never startet pulling out a map and put the minis on, so my players got the idea "hey, itīs getting serious"... no I normally waited until they asked me to sketch the situation.
I always just told/showed them what the see/saw and this was good. If they had a survillance drone or something I always used google maps print outs for an additional overview map of the surrounding.
some of the minis are still available and not too expensive (check ebay for ral partha, grenadier SR minis) or http://ironwindmetals.com/store/index.php?cPath=15
picture search is allways difficult. I use google pics with keywords like: fighter, cyborg, mage, wizard, dragon,... ect, ect.
the pics form the contacts supplement(s) are pretty useful as well
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As a GM I like minis and even 3D terrain because it creates an accepted reference. I was an admin on the Detroit MUX (a text based multi user SR site) and I would say that at least 40% of my energy was consumed by trying to get everyone on the same page. People tended to skim the description or interpret it (normally for their benefit) resulting in a lot of confusion that could have been avoided if there had been a method to 'see' the situation. If a picture is worth a thousand words then minis and a map/terrain are worth a thousand words multiplied by the number of players sitting around the table.
Minis and maps are yet another tool available to the GM that can be used to streamline a game.
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I agree that especially with AOE effects, SR really does NEED a map to determine damage and prevent arguing. I was just saying that I like keeping the map as an abstract thing....as if it were an ARO or something and then I use images and pictures that I scour the internet for (cuz i can't draw) to really set the stage. So what ends up happening is that I usually need to mold my maps to fit the picture i've presented. Hence my maps have to be pretty sketched out on a grid to keep distances exact.
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Minis, maps, and terrain have limitations. If I put in a lot of time on some scenery for a climatic battle and then the players skirt around that...I have to fight the urge to lead them back to that location. It is the 'I built this damn thing and by all the powers that be you will go there so I can set it out on the table' factor. As GM's it is easy to fall in love with a NPC, miniature, map, trap, or any number of items that you feel the compulsion to bring it into play...in spite of the player's actions.
Back on topic though, if an abstract map works for you then so be it. There are some people, like myself, that collect, covert, and paint miniatures which serves to add another level of enjoyment to the process. Scenery that I build for Shadowrun will often end up being recycled for near future/modern wargames (which is why I stick with 28mm scale these days) and when my shelves are full, sold off on eBay. Others, not so much, which is equally fine by me. 8-)
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Since it is VERY difficult (for me, both financially and practically) to get my hands on any Shadowrun minis - or cyberpunk related ones - I was going to use sticky-backed magnet sheets and paste pictures of shadowrunners to it in lieu of using miniatures.
The issue is that I really don't want to sift through images one at a time saving and cropping the ones I want (I'll do it, but I would rather avoid it if possible). Does anyone know of a place where I could get some decent quality pics for this kind of use?
Many Thanks,
Arkangel
Are you GMing or running as a player? As a player, yeah, I'd want the best possible image to use in going your route and the previous suggestions for online images are good. As a GM though, I want fast and easy (which is why I try to always get some modern-style mini's when I make it to the game stores). So instead of looking for "images," I'd go with "icons," on cardstock. Like modifying military icons (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/unitsymbols.jpg (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/unitsymbols.jpg)), and you can personalize specific pieces with images you find (of course, it kind of gives away the named NPCs vs. grunts that way). The only issue is the time it takes to cut them out. Which tends to annoy me.
Other quick and easy options:
coins, chess/checker pieces, (and many people's favorite) Legos. One of my personal favorites is non-sticky/non-messy modeling clay as I can quickly make something to scale that resembles the basic shape needed while spilling out some flavor text or I can take a day, sculpt it, cook it, and have it mostly-forever (made a Ford-Canadian Bison (no image...it broke :( ) once and a wagon cart that my wizard always tended to hide under http://www.fizzygoo.com/Minis/cart_right.jpg (http://www.fizzygoo.com/Minis/cart_right.jpg)). Not to mention you can quickly poke it (un-cooked) with a toothpick to represent every bullet it's taking :D.
Like John Schmidt points out, there's always the chance that the player's won't interact with the set and/or NPCs...which is why I prefer the quick and easy route. But that also has it's limitations as for years I had to put up with players commenting on my draw the map fast style as "hey, look, the Drunken-architect designed this building too." I would love to have each run with custom terrain, minis, etc. But time, time, time...le ug.
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Here's the cheap-ass route I take.
- Tools: If you're wanting your standard one-inch-wide minis, my first recommendation is going to a hobby store and buying a one-inch-wide punch, the type used for scrapbooking. One of these punches will probably run you about $7, and allow you to punch out a circular chunk of paper or cardstock quickly. If you're making more than about five or six 'budget minis' at a go, this will be your best investment.
- Material: I've found that heavy cardstock tends to work best for the somewhat disposable route, or the things that you want to mass-produce without a large investment. Don't go to office-supply stores to buy the stuff, though -- they charge about twice what you'd pay at a big-outlet chain, like Wal-Mart. (I can buy a full pack of 110-weight paper, 150 sheets, for about $4 at WM; the same would probably cost me $7-8 at an office store.) If you're wanting something heavier, go with poster-board, but I'd only recommend that for pieces that are going to see a lot of use.
- Images: This is a case of personal preference. Do Google image searches for whatever you're looking for -- don't include the word "Shadowrun" unless a regular search isn't turning up what you want. (For example, you may have to use it when searching for trolls, 'cause SR trolls have a unique look.) Run these pictures through TokenTool (http://www.rptools.net/index.php?page=tokentool) to turn them into nice little circles, possibly with a colored border.
- Printing: Fire up Word (or the equivalent in OpenOffice). You'll be using this to put all your tokens on one page. Bring the page margins down to about half an inch, so you have more room for figs. Create a one-inch circle, then edit it. One of the options will be to put an image inside this circle; pick that, and put in the picture you saved. Repeat with all the tokens you want to make. (You can also make bigger circles, if you want bigger critters; there's no real guideline on this, though. I'd recommend making troll tokens 1.5-2" wide, to emphasize how big they are.)
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Hey there.
As far as minis go... Yeah, having a decent collection will probably cost several hundred dollars. If you really want one, the only suggestion I can offer up is buying some old Star Wars mini collection / bundle on ebay. I got mine for a little under 100$ CAN (this was about six years ago), and i have several hundred minis to choose from. Granted, there will be a short while in which every player will want to wield a lightsaber. But other then that, there are enough alien species to fill up a bar scene, and you always use the stormtroopers as rent-a-cop / corpsec units.
And a good foldable battle mat is around 15$. Add a dozen bucks for different colored markers (make sure that they are WASHABLE), and you'll be able to doodle anything on your map on the spot, and then wipe it off afterwards. Just make sure not to press down on the markers too hard, or it'll leave a permanent stain.
Trust me. -_-
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As far as minis go... Yeah, having a decent collection will probably cost several hundred dollars. If you really want one, the only suggestion I can offer up is buying some old Star Wars mini collection / bundle on ebay. I got mine for a little under 100$ CAN (this was about six years ago), and i have several hundred minis to choose from. Granted, there will be a short while in which every player will want to wield a lightsaber. But other then that, there are enough alien species to fill up a bar scene, and you always use the stormtroopers as rent-a-cop / corpsec units.
We use the star wars minis for the most part. The clone and storm troopers are great for all sorts of grunts. And Jar Jar makes an awesome mini for a toxic spirit of man. :D
And a good foldable battle mat is around 15$. Add a dozen bucks for different colored markers (make sure that they are WASHABLE), and you'll be able to doodle anything on your map on the spot, and then wipe it off afterwards. Just make sure not to press down on the markers too hard, or it'll leave a permanent stain.
Also, depending on the quality of the matt and the markers, you'll probably want to make sure you don't put the mat away without washing it. Some of them will stain if left for too long, especially if you're using red or purple.
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We use the star wars minis for the most part. The clone and storm troopers are great for all sorts of grunts. And Jar Jar makes an awesome mini for a toxic spirit of man. :D
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LMOA, good ol' Jar Jar. I needed that laugh.