Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: Robert on <08-25-20/1558:38>

Title: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Robert on <08-25-20/1558:38>
While trying to integrate "No Future 2019" into Genesis, I stumbled upon several unclear items.
Can anybody comment?
Thanks!

A) All availabilities seem to be SR5 style. To convert them to SR6 I would switch R -> L (license needed) and F -> I (illegal) and halve the availability rating (e.g. 12F -> 6I)

B) Cost for internal synth link are shown as "x2" without mentioning what is duplicated. I assume it is the cost of the external synth link, thus cost is 4.000 Nuyen.

C) How many modification slots do the new weapons have (Yo-Yo, Skate Boards, Roller Skates, Torch, Pitchfork, Molotov)? I would assume 2 (exotic or close combat weapons).

D) Which skills are used for those weapons?E) How can ProCams be mounted into drones? Do they need to be mounted into a weapon mount (so they can be pointing in directions different to drone travel)? If the latter, which size (standard or heavy weapon mount)?

F) Is the cost of an "internal SmartCam" really "camera x2"? This would mean for a ProCam 12 another 3.000 Nuyen for the "internal SmartCam", when an "external SmartCam" is only 200 Nuyen. Would'nt it make more sense to use "external SmartCam x2" = 400 Nuyen?

G) Which name to use for the cyberware: Autovoice or Audiotune?

H) Autovoice/Audiotune "replaces  the  userís  own  limit  for singing performances with its rating". This concept does not exist in SR6. The matching SR6 concept would be to gice bonus dice. However 6 bonus dice would be unbalancing. Thus I would propose only 3 ratings with double costI) Vocal expansion "raises the userís natural limit for Leadership tests using Influence and Performance (singing) tests using Con by its rating". Again, this concept does not exist in SR6. The matching SR6 concept would be to gice bonus dice. I would propose 1 dice per rating.

J) Cybereyes rating 5 already exist in Core rule book, with lower capacity than the one shown as rating 5 in No Future. I propose to simply rename the new ones 5->6 and 6->7

K) Cyberears rating 5 already exist in Core rule book, with lower capacity than the one shown as rating 5 in No Future. I propose to simply rename the new ones 5->6 and 6->7

L) In SR6 vision enhancement does not have levels. It just gives one bonus dice. Jumping to 4-6 bonus dice would be unbalancing. Thus I propose to half the ratings, to go from 2-3 only.

M) "Stolen gear" states "possible additional funds to 150,000", however table shows 1-20 Karma at 10.000 per Karma thus max. 200.000. What is correct?
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-25-20/1637:09>
A) A decent idea.

B & C) I'll have to look into it to comment, but your guess sounds reasonable.

D) specializations are by their nature not firmly defined.  Believe me, as a member of the errata team I can imagine your pain trying to codify these sorts of things into a program.  IMO your assumptions are fair.  Only one I'd quibble with is calling Skate Boards Exotic instead of Close Combat.

E) this isn't going to be definitively answerable until the Rigger book is published (and vehicle/drone modding rules are implemented).  I'd suggest for Genesis' purposes: allow it to be added in a slot-less manner (like autosofts)
EDIT: Ooh, and hey, if you're a person who can make it happen, how about allowing autosofts to be loaded on vehicles while you're at it? ;D

F) Until such time prices can be errata'd, the prices are what they are. (sigh.  I still look at ultrasound sensors vs ultrasound cyberware and cry inside)

G) I'd go with Autovoice as the more correct name, since Audiotune was only mentioned once.

H) This is awaiting approval for errata. Obviously it can't modify your limit.  There are two possible mechanics submitted to replace this.  Remains to be seen which will be approved for formal errata.  My advice in your case? Just make it a purchaseable item and the exact mechanics can be left as a "see pg. 160, No Future).  That way you're future proofed for whichever way it gets ruled to work.

I) See H.

J,K,L) Ugh.  Noone caught that.  I suppose the only thing to do, assuming you want to stick to official rules, is differentiate between Cybereyes Rating 5 and Cybereyes Rating 5 (No Future).  I have some homework to do now to add these to the pile.

M) this is an ugly issue. My understanding, as the wording stands:
The quality works like 6e's In Debt, and not like 5e's In Debt.  That is: you gain X karma as a bonus for taking the negative quality, and you gain 0 resources.  Instead what happens is the CRB rate of karma conversion is altered from 1:2000 to 1:10000 (or from 1:2000 to 1:5000 in the case of In Debt).  The cap of +150,000 nuyen exists to keep you from spending, say, 70 karma on resources. (+20 for the quality, and 50 starting karma)

I shouldn't talk about behind the scenes goings on, but if I don't say this part myself it'll come out anyway ;D  There's not unanimous agreement that my reading is the way it is/should be.  A counter view is that Stolen Gear works like In Debt from 5e: you gain the karma AND the resources per karma point, without having to spend any karma on resources.

Either way, it's a broken-good quality that is awaiting errata.  Of course, if you were to code it before waiting for official errata (because who knows how long that'll be), I'd suggest "my way".  At least you have to suffer getting gear for free, rather than "paying" for gear by taking more karma to get it :P

Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-25-20/1705:54>

I shouldn't talk about behind the scenes goings on, but if I don't say this part myself it'll come out anyway ;D  There's not unanimous agreement that my reading is the way it is/should be.  A counter view is that Stolen Gear works like In Debt from 5e: you gain the karma AND the resources per karma point, without having to spend any karma on resources.

Either way, it's a broken-good quality that is awaiting errata.  Of course, if you were to code it before waiting for official errata (because who knows how long that'll be), I'd suggest "my way".  At least you have to suffer getting gear for free, rather than "paying" for gear by taking more karma to get it :P

If you include the buy off cost, your way of reading is far lower cost overall and way more exploitable.   :P ;D :D

But, yes as written Stolen Goods apparently contradicts itself and needs Errata.  SSDR's suggestion is as good as any until the Errata is approved and published. 
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-25-20/1706:50>

I shouldn't talk about behind the scenes goings on, but if I don't say this part myself it'll come out anyway ;D  There's not unanimous agreement that my reading is the way it is/should be.  A counter view is that Stolen Gear works like In Debt from 5e: you gain the karma AND the resources per karma point, without having to spend any karma on resources.

Either way, it's a broken-good quality that is awaiting errata.  Of course, if you were to code it before waiting for official errata (because who knows how long that'll be), I'd suggest "my way".  At least you have to suffer getting gear for free, rather than "paying" for gear by taking more karma to get it :P

If you include the buy off cost, your way of reading is far lower cost overall and way more exploitable.   :P ;D :D

But, yes as written Stolen Goods apparently contradicts itself and needs Errata.  SSDR's suggestion is as good as any until the Errata is approved and published.

Indeed.  no matter how you slice it, there are things that don't work.  Even before balance issues.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Lormyr on <08-25-20/1746:41>
A counter view is that Stolen Gear works like In Debt from 5e: you gain the karma AND the resources per karma point, without having to spend any karma on resources.

Unfortunately, the phrasing is poorly constructed that when combined with the flatly contradictory mechanics I can see how someone could walk away with that understanding. Using it that way would be well and truly busted though.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-25-20/1947:06>
wait...so stolen gear:
1) Gives you karma
2) allows you to spend upto 15 karma to get 150k worth of gear
3) Taking all 20 points of karma nets you 150k Nguyen gear + 5karma to spend?

Is that correct?

What does that do to normal karma to nuyen conversion after that 15? is it 1 to 2k or 1 to 5k?

God that quality is a mess...
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-25-20/2029:02>
wait...so stolen gear:
1) Gives you karma
2) allows you to spend upto 15 karma to get 150k worth of gear
3) Taking all 20 points of karma nets you 150k Nguyen gear + 5karma to spend?

Is that correct?

By my understanding, yes.  As explained above, my understanding is hardly the only way to interpret the rules as-is.  It's still an imperfect interpretation, because under that reading, it's impossible to spend 16-20 karma and qualify for the last category of bounty hunting victimhood.  So clearly something is off.

Quote
What does that do to normal karma to nuyen conversion after that 15? is it 1 to 2k or 1 to 5k?

By my understanding, the existence of the cap means there is no more karma to nuyen conversion after 150,000.

Quote
God that quality is a mess...

Agreed.  It needs something to fix it, whether you read it my way or any other way.  Balance-wise, I have my hopes that the karma imbalance between this and In Debt (which gives 0 karma...) can also be addressed.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-25-20/2233:09>

Short Term:
I get the math and how it looks broke.  However, if you use Markelphoenix post that SSDR just referenced. 

Long Term:
Every other game the player would have a Hunted Event.  I don't know about you, but I would assume for 100k (Typical bounty per Stolen Gear Table) you are going to get a series team/group to come after the player.  I would also expect a team of that level not to do it when they are fully healed, but maybe after another big fight.... or during. 

If that were the case, that 150k in gear may not be worth fighting or the team may decided the player isn't worth the extra heat.

To buy it down the player would also have to pay 2x original Karma. Assuming 5 Karma a game, that is going to take 6 games AND 3 Hunter Events.  Additionally, that Character is now 30 Karma behind other players. 

Just my thoughts,
SL
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Robert on <08-26-20/0115:41>
Thank you for all the comments and explanations. I will adjust Genesis to relect them as far as possible (or ask Taranion to do those things I cannot achieve  :) )

On D) I propose Skate Boards to be Close Combat, not Exotic  ;)

On E) Are Autosofts supposed to be addable to vehicles? The rule book only talks about Autosoft in the context of drones. If they can be added to vehicles, is that possible to any vehicle (even without pilot rating like the "Berlin 2080" cars) or does it need minimum Pilot 1 or does that vehicle have to have rigger interface installed first?

And one additional question: What is the blast range of a Molotov Cocktail? 6 Meter?

Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-26-20/0130:38>
...
On E) Are Autosofts supposed to be addable to vehicles? The rule book only talks about Autosoft in the context of drones. If they can be added to vehicles, is that possible to any vehicle (even without pilot rating like the "Berlin 2080" cars) or does it need minimum Pilot 1 or does that vehicle have to have rigger interface installed first?

Drones and Vehicles have all the same rules with the following exceptions:

Drones don't (can't!) have passengers
Drones always come with rigger adaptation for free.

Other than that... drones = vehicles, as far as the rules are concerned.  An unmanned vehicle remotely controlled or jumped in is just a big drone.

Quote
And one additional question: What is the blast range of a Molotov Cocktail? 6 Meter?

In all probability, the absence of a Blast range is due to the writers not having access to the final/full 6WE rulebook when they made No Future.

That being said, I don't see a reason it really HAS to have a blast range. It's not a commercially made explosive afterall... in my opinion it works to say the absence of a Blast range works for these weapons. A 5 meter radius is already pretty generous for a bottle full of gasoline. If >5m distance renders you immune to a molotov cocktail, it wouldn't be a bad thing for game design...
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Robert on <08-27-20/1655:56>
Coming back to the topic of "stolen gear"... I think a "stolen gear" 20 would be impossible to play. Basically the game master would need to attack the charakter with the negative quality every gaming session, with a capable bounty hunter team. This may result in the death of some charakters, but it definitively will take away 2-3 hours of playing time, thus the players may not have enought time left for the run at hand. Also, as this is EVERY game session, it will be quite boring and/or deadly soon.

There is a proposal in the FAQ of Shadowrun Missions, which moves those attacks into the "off time" and deals out damage as a result:
Quote
However, every X SRM (where X is the number of game sessions listed in the Hunted Frequency column) that you play, you will start the Mission with 1 box of Physical Damage per threshold of the quality. This damage can only be healed naturally. You also start with a box of Stun for every Karma point above the minimum Karma for that threshold. This damage represents being attacked by a bounty hunter and escaping just before the Mission, and is what remains after applying triage healing methods (such as first aid or magical healing).
Examples: At 1 Karma, you start every 4 th  SRM you play with 1 Physical Damage filled in. At 7 Karma, you start every 3 rd  SRM you play with 2 Physical Damage and 1 (7-6) Stun Damage. At 14 Karma, you start every other SRM you play with 3 Physical Damage and 3 (14-11) Stun Damage. At 20 Karma, you start EVERY SRM with 4 Physical Damage and 4 (20-16) Stun Damage.

This may be better than killing the play time, however a Level 10 "Stolen Gear" would deliver every 3rd game session 2 physical damage (one nights sleep) and 4 stun damage (one hour rest). Combine this with pain tolerance (bio, cyber or adept) and you gain 100.000 Nuyen basically for free.

In my view this quality is completely breaking the balancing of the priority system.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-27-20/1711:37>
Some SRMs take place in a single day, so resting off the physical damage isn't possible in those. It's risky. But it's still real cheap.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-27-20/1736:26>
In my view this quality is completely breaking the balancing of the priority system.

I hear ya, and I completely agree.

Errata takes time to go official though.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-27-20/1823:48>

Short Term:
I get the math and how it looks broke.  However, if you use Markelphoenix post that SSDR just referenced. 

Long Term:
Every other game the player would have a Hunted Event.  I don't know about you, but I would assume for 100k (Typical bounty per Stolen Gear Table) you are going to get a series team/group to come after the player.  I would also expect a team of that level not to do it when they are fully healed, but maybe after another big fight.... or during. 

If that were the case, that 150k in gear may not be worth fighting or the team may decided the player isn't worth the extra heat.

To buy it down the player would also have to pay 2x original Karma. Assuming 5 Karma a game, that is going to take 6 games AND 3 Hunter Events.  Additionally, that Character is now 30 Karma behind other players. 

Just my thoughts,
SL

My favorite meta game thought exercise was to have Players coordinate Bounty characters and Bounty Hunter characters and have 1 or more team members turned in by the rest of the team for the bounty.  No sane GM would let it happen, but it gave me a chuckle. 

SSDR / Market Phoenix have the correct reading, near as I can tell, and that's what I would recommend for Genesis.  That's how Missions is going to do it until Errata hits.

Personally I would suggest banning or at house ruling it to something that works for the table for home games.

Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-27-20/2035:00>
Hobbes,

Agree RAW is what SSDR/MP have stated.

In the discussion, I hadn't thought about player A ratting out player B for part of a bounty.  That is kind of funny.

Regards,
SL
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Robert on <08-28-20/0111:13>
To be really honest... many Shadowrunners are doing the runs because they have to, to pay for their life style.
Consider someone with low life style (2k per month).
That team mate with the stolen gear is worth 5 years of free living.

If you "role play" your charakter, you HAVE to turn that guy in, to get the bounty.  ;)
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-28-20/0313:20>
Only if your character is willing to backstab for it, otherwise it's just lousy 'but that's what my character would do!'. Would you give the Decker a neckshot to fence their deck? Kill the Streetsam to fence their cyberware? Kill the mage to sell their Foci?
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Robert on <08-28-20/1418:57>
Of course that would be lousy, that is why I put a winking Smiley behind the comment.

But it IS a difference if you get 200.000 bounty as cash or have to fence 450k worth of kit getting 10-15% of the value (according to rule book), thus 45-70k.

Or said the other way round. If one charakter in the group takes the "stolen gear 20" it probably would be good to align that upfront not only with the game master, but also with the other players in the group.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-28-20/1425:09>
Yep, its a chuckle worthy thought exercise.  No GM would let it happen, or if they did they were planning on making it rain anyway.   
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: 0B on <08-28-20/2103:51>
If you've got a mature enough group that's RP or narrative-focused, that sort of thing might not be bad. So long as all players are in on it.
Title: Re: {SR6] No Future
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-28-20/2117:13>
It would be pretty lame out of the gate, but I could see it happen if after the 4th time repo man showed up and in the fight trashed the deckers gear the decker said fine I'm spiking this jerks drink and collecting the bounty myself.

I have a serious distaste for negative qualities like hunted because far too often its really the teams disadvantage.