Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: CanRay on <08-16-20/1251:53>

Title: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-16-20/1251:53>
Who has it?

Who has used it?

What did you think of the weapons?  Gameplay examples?

Has anyone even used any of the vehicles yet?
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-16-20/1305:13>
I have it, I like it, but I don't have a current campaign so can't use them yet... ;_;
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-19-20/1104:04>
Don't know what I expected, but...   :'(
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-19-20/1132:00>
The forum is more dead than the sheep. :-\
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-20-20/2155:38>
I got it,

I thought it was alright.  However the Gunner/Rigger, lost his mind on a couple things.  Louder and ammo mainly.  I would be interested to hear what others like or dislike.

Best,
SL
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: 0B on <08-20-20/2203:54>
I liked the tone of it a lot! I haven't used any of the stats yet.

I am greatly considering just attaching the loudener to every weapon I have in 6E, sheerly for the sake of mohawk.

Are you looking for specific feedback on pacing, word choice, etc, or just getting a feel of how it's going?
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-20-20/2236:59>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WKM9GDuX0Y
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-21-20/2121:40>
Are you looking for specific feedback on pacing, word choice, etc, or just getting a feel of how it's going?
Mostly just a "like", "hate", "meh", and experiences using the gear, especially ones with special rules like the Calliope/Carpet or the Wageslave.

Too many of the comments I saw when it first came out were, well, pretty much attacks on it.   :'(
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Lormyr on <08-23-20/0659:21>
Mostly just a "like", "hate", "meh", and experiences using the gear, especially ones with special rules like the Calliope/Carpet or the Wageslave.

Too many of the comments I saw when it first came out were, well, pretty much attacks on it.   :'(

Since you never did follow up with a response to that thread I am left to wonder if you actually do want genuine feedback, or just want to hear what people like about your work?

Being sensitive to feedback to your work is totally fine, but calling criticism about how grenades are just mechanically unbalanced "attacks" is a weak sentiment. Attacks are calling you, the author, names or being derogatory towards you personally. Saying that two elements of your whole piece of work are grossly unbalanced, with an explanation of why, is feedback to your work. I would advise that anyone sensitive to others commenting on their work be careful about asking for feedback from the community, because they just might get it.

That said, here are some positives for you:

The flavor of the book, the NPC quotes, and the fluff were quite solid.

With the exception of the absurd multiple explosive weapons and the heat slugs, the power creep of the other weapons is minimal, which is a good thing.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-23-20/1015:47>
Having played a game using Krime Carpet, can say the results were spectacular and fun was had. We dubbed it a very Michael Bay moment.

So, here's one guy that greatly appreciates the multi explosive weapons.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-23-20/1017:10>
So Lormyr, you're excusing attacking a freelancer with that you just dislike SR6 grenades? Even you should know that's far from nice and constructive. Then again, you already threatened to bring grenade monsters into SRMs and deliberately ruin the game for other players just to prove your point, so I'm not surprised. Still, at the very least you shouldn't harass the freelancers for decisions they're not responsible for.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: penllawen on <08-23-20/1032:17>
Then again, you already threatened to bring grenade monsters into SRMs and deliberately ruin the game for other players just to prove your point, so I'm not surprised.
"Player who is openly in love with building optimised characters gravitates towards blatantly overpowered game option. Shocking video at 11."

Lormyr is the bug report, not the bug.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: 0B on <08-23-20/1202:28>
Now hold on a second-

It's true that unsolicited feedback is rarely helpful. It's not a matter of sensitivity or whatever, it's just that nobody owes you their time/attention, and there's nothing stopping you from giving your review or criticism elsewhere.

The author, in this case, specifically stated he's looking for feedback. So the above is not the case.

I think Lormyr might be off the mark: this isn't the only place where people talk about shadowrun, so I think it's a bit hasty to assume that he's singling you out. There were two posts on reddit about it, one with 0 points (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/ho7785/two_new_shadowrun_books_now_extra_insensitivity/) talking about using the word "confederate" for a weapon as insensitive (And with a 20 point comment describing how the poster completely misinterpreted that section), and one about the t-shirt cannon (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/i3wrv2/finally_the_ultimate_weapon/) with discussion about the book itself in the comments. There were also some negative reviews on DTRPG.

It's also true that if you are criticizing a work, you do need to separate the work itself from the author. This isn't just because of the meme about CGL and editing (Or who's responsible for what), but also because you can't actually define someone's skills or character based off of one of their works. It's irresponsible to try and do otherwise.

The inverse is also true- criticizing the work itself is NOT a criticism of the author. You aren't attacking anyone or singling anyone out by talking about a book. I would also go back to my point about how you can't take any single work as defining about an author's skills or who they are as a person. (If you could, I would certainly have to tone down what I post on AO3...)

This is also a rare case- usually, with game books, you only know who wrote what section if the author comes out and says it. However, Krime only has one author on it, and if I'm not wrong, the author either paid for editing himself or got some friends to do it for free. So it's not as much of a "group effort" as other game books are, but all the above about criticizing work vs author still applies.

However, I don't have the context here, so apologies if I'm talking over Lormyr or CanRay about this and bringing up something neither of them intended.

Back on topic...

I'd say it's definitely a pink mohawk-y book, and players using that style will like it more.

I read it mostly for the fluff, so I don't have a strong opinion on the mechanics. The game I've been running is Shadowrun in the Sprawl, so anything from here that I use is going to get re-statted anyways. I do want to try out 6e again, now that there's been two rounds of errata, and that Firing Squad has smoothed over some of the more jarring details of combat.

I do know that grenades in 6e are OP: I don't mind the increased lethality, or forcing players to rely on cover, but I don't think that's represented across the board with all weapons. A bullet to the head can be just as lethal, if not more so, than a grenade, and I don't think that's represented.

From a "gamey" standpoint, grenades do not rely on line of sight, and they are AoE, which gives them two advantages over other weapons. If they're also a significantly better choice in terms of damage, then there is a mechanical problem: either the table bans or limits them, or every character starts carrying a lot of grenades to even the playing field. There's been OP weapons in the past in SR, but it's tricky when it's all weapons in a certain category are OP. If this were a case where frag grenades had a ridiculous DV and the rest were fine, that'd be a different scenario. This is all general, though, I don't have the context of what you're talking about and I'm not sure if I care to know who did what in a SRM game or why that has anything to do with the book

The characterization of Krime is very "hammy" or "chewing the scenery," in a way that I absolutely adore. There is a very good sense of rhythm and pacing in the text. You can map out the high points and low points to show that the sentences are structured in such a way to appear authentic, engage the reader, and express what the narrator "sounds" like. This is something I find difficult, I tend to use a lot of long sentences that veer dangerously towards "run-on" sentences. Even if the personality of Krime comes off as "too much" for a reader, the structure of the sentences and word choice used will ensure that the reader is engaged with the text regardless (Not every character has to be "likable" to be "enjoyable.")

I like some of the "tongue-in-cheek" ways of handling exposition. A lot of times in SR books, jackpointers seem like they just copypasta'ed a wikipedia article into chat, but Krime never sounds like that.

Krime Power Rounds increases the muzzle flare and acoustic report (that means “sound of a gunshot”—we learned something today!) one level higher!

That just cracks me up. The ongoing "story" about Krime trying and failing to tank their vehicle sales is also funny
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Lormyr on <08-23-20/1209:20>
So Lormyr, you're excusing attacking a freelancer with that you just dislike SR6 grenades? Even you should know that's far from nice and constructive.

No no Mikey, let me help you out.

What I said in the explosives discussion about the calliope and the karpet was constructive criticism. I stated why it was unbalanced (and poorly worded too), I offered alternate suggestions for those unbalanced mechanics, and made absolutely no mention of any kind about Ray personally. That is how constructive criticism works.

Now, an attack would look completely different. An attack would be something like saying something offense about the actual person, without offering any insight or constructive feedback about why a particular element of their work was good, bad, balanced, or not.

Like if I was to say something like "Hey Mikey, you are little better than a sniveling twerp so sensitive that I legitimately have no idea how you manage to make it through your life without hiding behind your blanky.", then something like that would certainly be what most normal people consider an attack. Fortunately for you I have more class than that though, and don't need to resort to that sort of thing outside of examples to highlight how assertive criticism is not an attack.

Even you should be capable of understanding the difference. I won't hold my breath though. Just in case. :p

Then again, you already threatened to bring grenade monsters into SRMs and deliberately ruin the game for other players just to prove your point

It's called satire homey, google it. :) I mean, I have clearly followed through on that "threat!". Ruined SRM for everyone I did!
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Lormyr on <08-23-20/1217:37>
Player who is openly in love with building optimised characters gravitates towards blatantly overpowered game option. Shocking video at 11."

Lormyr is the bug report, not the bug.

Right? Hell the only character I made for play with them doesn't even have that many dice for their use. Fat Larry is likely to blow himself up some too.

An abuse build would be all ware with wired reflexes 4 to make damn sure he went first and could throw 2 per round, and 20+ dice to hit.

I think Lormyr might be off the mark: this isn't the only place where people talk about shadowrun, so I think it's a bit hasty to assume that he's singling you out. There were two posts on reddit about it,

That is a totally legit point my man. I just don't frequent anywhere but here other than in passing, so responded based off my previous interaction.

However, I don't have the context here, so apologies if I'm talking over Lormyr or CanRay about this and bringing up something neither of them intended.

No man you are fine. You summed out how I look at it pretty clearly, so thanks for that.

I mean, once again, I don't know Ray at all. I have absolutely no issue with the man, and I liked most of his book too. All I am saying is that the last thing explosives need is buffing, and that is exactly what two of the weapons he designed did, which makes them poorly balanced, for reasons I have highlighted numerous times elsewhere.

If there are some people that legitimately consider that an attack, then my only available response is to not concern myself with that sort of logic. I leave it to them as a personal problem at that level.

Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-23-20/1444:56>
Due to NDA (as I understand it), I cannot comment on what's going on with the Carpet/Calliope.  But there are changes to it coming.

I tried to find the original post about this, but couldn't for whatever reason.  Sorry about that.

Thank you all for taking time to post about the book!   ;D
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Lormyr on <08-23-20/1455:14>
Due to NDA (as I understand it), I cannot comment on what's going on with the Carpet/Calliope.  But there are changes to it coming.

I tried to find the original post about this, but couldn't for whatever reason.  Sorry about that.

Thank you all for taking time to post about the book!   ;D

No need to apologize man. I'll be interested to see the changes when they come out.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-23-20/1531:10>
Due to NDA (as I understand it), I cannot comment on what's going on with the Carpet/Calliope.  But there are changes to it coming.

I tried to find the original post about this, but couldn't for whatever reason.  Sorry about that.

Thank you all for taking time to post about the book!   ;D

Personal feedback from being in a game where Carpet was used by a player,
was fun. Balanced? Probably not. Fun? Absolutely!

Glad it got added. Created a neat scenario that neutralized a large portion of a threat, but also destroyed part of our retrieval target, reducing our payday. Personally glad it's a thing.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: 0B on <08-25-20/1345:09>
Based on estimated costs of art and the wordcount, Krime Katalog currently has the most "bang for its buck" in digital sales among all Shadowrun products, and is only beat out by House Arano among all CGL products. Only counting DTRPG sales, of course, physical books may beat out Krime Katalog and I don't have a lot of data on Battletech books. Columns R-S (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kyRPZn2kGyhtNqdt7MwBpoeUqhSDqMDx5yFs82ybF-M/edit?usp=sharing) detail the best case and worst case estimates.

Krime Katalog makes between $65 - $220 per thousand words with moderate (?) confidence. Next highest "bang for buck" SR product is Free Seattle, making between $30 - $130 per thousand words.

Formula: (Estimated sales - Estimated costs / word count * 1000).

Assumptions: Pay was between 0.005 and 0.03 cents per word. If CanRay got something closet to 0.07 - 0.10 cents per word, this is adjusted. Cost of art was between $10 - $25 each.

This does not include editing/layout, since I am unsure if that's salaried or freelance at CGL. Even if my estimates are off (Suppose CGL does a standard rate of 0.05 cents per word, or does freelance layout at $X per page), the adjustments will be consistent across the board.

So from a cold, money-based standpoint, Krime Katalog is very successful. Also, I'm guessing you can't say, but if you seriously got paid 0.005 cents per word for that you should ask for higher pay next time, your writing is worth a lot more than that.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-25-20/1403:14>
When you say 0.005 cents per word, do you mean 0.005 $ = 0.5 cents? Otherwise we're talking 20.000 words for 1 dollar.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-25-20/1429:01>
It's not about the money for me.  I know I seem to beg for positive reviews and the like, but that's my mental health eating away at me, and I really shouldn't be near the Internet at those times.  I'm amazed at every paycheque I get.  And worry that I'd get paid TOO MUCH because I'm on Disability and they get pissy if I deposit too much in my bank account, or cash a cheque that's too big.

And, before you suggest other options, not declaring the money is a way to instantly get kicked off of Disability and landing me on the street.  I also have to explain what "Freelance Contract Work" means to every new worker I get (which sometimes can be up to three or four a year!), as they just can't savvy the fact that I don't get a monthly amount for some strange reason.  Or even a yearly amount.

*Cue People Complaining About Me Being A Leach To The Economic System Here*   :'(
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Lormyr on <08-25-20/1441:30>
*Cue People Complaining About Me Being A Leach To The Economic System Here*   :'(

Shit dude, you're not even a blip on the economic radar. Jeff Bezos not paying taxes for his multi-billion dollar corp and other horseshit like that are the economic problems.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: penllawen on <08-25-20/1452:03>
*Cue People Complaining About Me Being A Leach To The Economic System Here*   :'(
Fuck that. I’m from Europe, where we value social safety nets for the vulnerable. You’re not doing anything wrong.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-25-20/1545:21>
Thanks folks.  Wish other places I end up were as supportive.

Back to Krime, however...  How about this, what do you think Kane and Many-Name's "Cop Eater" cars have had added to them to be the horror of Security Forces everywhere?
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: Hobbes on <08-25-20/1551:59>
*Cue People Complaining About Me Being A Leach To The Economic System Here*   :'(

Shit dude, you're not even a blip on the economic radar. Jeff Bezos not paying taxes for his multi-billion dollar corp and other horseshit like that are the economic problems.

Yeah, for every millionaire complaining about taxes there are dozen accountants working to make sure they don't actually pay any taxes. 

We didn't crawl out of the caves and into a civilized society by leaving everyone to fend for themselves.  Kind of the whole point of civilization is civility.     
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: 0B on <08-25-20/1616:56>
When you say 0.005 cents per word, do you mean 0.005 $ = 0.5 cents? Otherwise we're talking 20.000 words for 1 dollar.

Half a cent per word, or $0.005 USD. This (https://www.enworld.org/threads/whats-a-freelance-rpg-writer-worth.662811/) is a representation across companies. There's not a lot of hard data on it. Anecdotally, I've heard a freelancer for CGL say they made $0.03 per word, and a freelancer for modern FASA say they made $0.005 per word.

It's not about the money for me.  I know I seem to beg for positive reviews and the like, but that's my mental health eating away at me, and I really shouldn't be near the Internet at those times.  I'm amazed at every paycheque I get.  And worry that I'd get paid TOO MUCH because I'm on Disability and they get pissy if I deposit too much in my bank account, or cash a cheque that's too big.

And, before you suggest other options, not declaring the money is a way to instantly get kicked off of Disability and landing me on the street.  I also have to explain what "Freelance Contract Work" means to every new worker I get (which sometimes can be up to three or four a year!), as they just can't savvy the fact that I don't get a monthly amount for some strange reason.  Or even a yearly amount.

*Cue People Complaining About Me Being A Leach To The Economic System Here*   :'(

Hey, no worries! My point is just that you should be proud of your work because it's one of the best things published by CGL at the moment.

Thanks folks.  Wish other places I end up were as supportive.

Back to Krime, however...  How about this, what do you think Kane and Many-Name's "Cop Eater" cars have had added to them to be the horror of Security Forces everywhere?

I pictured them like this (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hasbro-Hungry-Hungry-Hippos-3-in-1-Scoot-and-Ride-On-Toy-by-Kid-Trax-Toddler/419850355), but bigger. I never pictured MoMN as a car dude, but I would get one like that...
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-26-20/1351:08>
The Prowler cop car is a full-sized, troll-sized sedan that starts out with a bulldozer blade on the front at the very least.

As for Many-Names turning into a car guy, maybe he was just waiting for the right car?   ;D  Also, I like the idea that the characters are less than the two-dimensional people they sometimes come to be.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: 0B on <08-26-20/1442:57>
The Prowler cop car is a full-sized, troll-sized sedan that starts out with a bulldozer blade on the front at the very least.

As for Many-Names turning into a car guy, maybe he was just waiting for the right car?   ;D  Also, I like the idea that the characters are less than the two-dimensional people they sometimes come to be.

Spot on. Sometimes, the jackpointers start to feel like they're writing a book report, rather than posting on a chat board.
Title: Re: The Krime Katalog
Post by: CanRay on <08-26-20/1820:29>
Spot on. Sometimes, the jackpointers start to feel like they're writing a book report, rather than posting on a chat board.
My first book, Safehouses, was /dev/grrl being given a homework assignment by FastJack.

He made her go out and tag transit vehicles (or, alternatively, write lines) when her penmanship wasn't up to snuff for his old man cybereyes.   ;D