Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mystic on <01-17-20/2203:05>
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Cutting Black PDF is now available for sale with a street date of 02/12/2020!
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/300822/Shadowrun-Cutting-Black-Plot-Sourcebook?src=newest_recent
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Already enjoying the changes I am seeing to the universe. Now to figure out how to use it going forward!
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*thread watching intensifies*
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN VOGEL AND KNIGHT <CENSORED>?!?! O____O HOLY FRAGFACE!
Sea Dragon needs to die. -_- Not because of her politics, but because of what she pulled in Free Seattle (the adventure).
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN VOGEL AND KNIGHT <CENSORED>?!?! O____O HOLY FRAGFACE!
Sea Dragon needs to die. -_- Not because of her politics, but because of what she pulled in Free Seattle (the adventure).
Indeed! Well all dragons need to die as far as one of my groups believe with Ghostwalker on the top of that list. Regardless of what the computer game Dragonfall tries to insinuate...
That said, have you got to the part where Ellis gives the big reveal?
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Nope, been too busy to read much. Holy frag. O_O
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I don't know what any of it means yet, but ... my complaint about Market Panic was that it was too static feeling, and too hard to roll into runs. I have to say that is VERY much not the case here!
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Yeah, this is the bridge that finishes off 5th edition and rolls us into 6th, setting up things for years to come.
There are some bigtime shake-ups in here.
…
Dangit, no it's in my head.
Shake shake shake, Senora!
Shake your body line
Shake shake shake Senora!
Shake it all the time
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Quick question, two data havens participate in discussions in Cutting Black that I'm not familiar with: Asgard (listed in the English wiki as defunct), and Frozen Shadows (not listed in the wiki).
Anyone know where these are based, and where I might find out more about them?
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Not certain. Liberty Belle's board in Philly I've used before, and I know at least one of the others is from Canada, but after that, I'm not certain. Since stuff was happening all over and reports were flooding in, we were using tons of Shadowland and similar posts instead of just JackPoint. I'd have to ask around, see who pulled in what beyond that. It was nice seeing the style again tho!
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One of the frozen shadows people mentioned Detroit being uncomfortably close, so my guess for them would be Toronto, which seemed like it could be interesting come 30 Nights... but would love confirmation.
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I wasn't impressed from the preview, but from what I head on other boards its not quite as world shaking as it first makes you believe.
So whats the verdict for now?
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I wasn't impressed from the preview, but from what I head on other boards its not quite as world shaking as it first makes you believe.
So whats the verdict for now?
I am enjoying it and looking forward to incorporating it into my campaigns and playing through it in others. Yes some cities get hit really hard but it's not difficult to prevent PCs from being impacted unless the player is willing to play along with it and while those cities face issues, there are things that mitigate it. In many ways Boston was far worse for far longer.
At the end of the day, it comes down to preferences and whether the GM and the players are willing to do some prep work in the case of the former and possible discussion in the case of the latter if they are interested in being affected by the events. Which likely would take less than a half hour to figure out in total for both.
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I would say that Cutting Black could be a disruptive for those with ongoing campaigns that ar attached to particular settings and playstyles, as it does do a bit of a yank the tablecloth off the table sort of scene change. On the other hand a new campaign set afterwards would have a lot of new material to work with, and ongoing campaigns that are happy to change things up have some interesting options here.
For myself, it is a breath of 'fresh' air (for some value of fresh that comes laced with traces of gunpowder and formic acid)
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I wasn't impressed from the preview, but from what I head on other boards its not quite as world shaking as it first makes you believe.
So whats the verdict for now?
I am enjoying it and looking forward to incorporating it into my campaigns and playing through it in others. Yes some cities get hit really hard but it's not difficult to prevent PCs from being impacted unless the player is willing to play along with it and while those cities face issues, there are things that mitigate it. In many ways Boston was far worse for far longer.
At the end of the day, it comes down to preferences and whether the GM and the players are willing to do some prep work in the case of the former and possible discussion in the case of the latter if they are interested in being affected by the events. Which likely would take less than a half hour to figure out in total for both.
My main "wtf" from reading the preview and review was the repeal of the Business Recognition Accord as corporates being able to do what they want with nations playing second fiddle is for me a core concept of cyberpunk settings. But from what I read that gets "resolved" in the book.
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My main "wtf" from reading the preview and review was the repeal of the Business Recognition Accord as corporates being able to do what they want with nations playing second fiddle is for me a core concept of cyberpunk settings. But from what I read that gets "resolved" in the book.
In summary:
- UCAS drops out of BRA
- UCAS goes through hell and then some*
- UCAS signs back up to BRA and things stop getting worse.
* No proof that all the problems were caused by the Megas ... but they also didn't make even a pretense of being helpful.
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My main "wtf" from reading the preview and review was the repeal of the Business Recognition Accord as corporates being able to do what they want with nations playing second fiddle is for me a core concept of cyberpunk settings. But from what I read that gets "resolved" in the book.
In summary:
- UCAS drops out of BRA
- UCAS goes through hell and then some
- UCAS signs back up to BRA and things stop getting worse.
FYI:
- UCAS re-signs BRA with even more power given over to the corps.
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Would it be possible for someone to show me an updated map of UCAS / North America with the changes? Unofficial sources 100% accepted.
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well, things are kind of in a state of flux as of the end of the book.
besides: there's occupied territory, sure. it doesn't mean the borders have fundamentally changed, though.
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Would it be possible for someone to show me an updated map of UCAS / North America with the changes? Unofficial sources 100% accepted.
Sioux border moves east to annex what used to be North Dakota, South Dakota, and Nebraska.
CAS border moves north to annex what used to be Kansas, Missouri, and Kentucky.
CAS also takes back the south end of Florida from the Caribbean League.
Seattle and St. Louis are now independent city-states.
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Wait, where did it talk about the south florida bit? (I'm sure you are right, I'm just wondering where I wasn't paying attention)
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Wait, where did it talk about the south florida bit? (I'm sure you are right, I'm just wondering where I wasn't paying attention)
Not sure if they took it back, but right at the beginning of the Atlanta section, it talks about "CAS making moves into Florida".
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Wait, where did it talk about the south florida bit? (I'm sure you are right, I'm just wondering where I wasn't paying attention)
Not sure if they took it back, but right at the beginning of the Atlanta section, it talks about "CAS making moves into Florida".
Thanks, I'll have to go re-read, I think I did get kind of skimmy by there.
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It's also mentioned in Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia ("CAS," p.41; "Miami, Florida," p.85).
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It's also mentioned in Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia ("CAS," p.41; "Miami, Florida," p.85).
Forgot about that! Thanks, Sphinx!
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Request to writers:
1) please keep Knight dead.
2) please offer some explanations to your new super weapons
3) prepare and print maps
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1) Noted!
2) Eventually, details will come out. Likely due to Shadowrunner activities!
3) YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I WANT THAT ahem.
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Whoever statted insect spirits made them astral-only with no way to engage with the material world.
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Makes sense, since unless they are using a Host, they cannot. I am surprised they didn't put some Inhabitation note there though.
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Ridiculous. An Alpha Merge shouldn't have Astral Form at all, it'd be meaningless because they can't leave the body, and die with the physical form. Something called a Merge is by definition already inhabited.
Soldier and Worker listed here on the other hand... its totally unclear to me whether these are supposed to represent merges or true form spirits or what. There's no other listing for merges.
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The "emp" probably bad matrix code literally bricking everything
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The "emp" probably bad matrix code literally bricking everything
So (possibly) unrelated to the corps and instead a test run for the NULL to take over (or more scary evidence that the corps and NULL have some form of agreement)?
But wasn't there a bright flash also?
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But wasn't there a bright flash also?
"Hey buddy, did you see a real bright light?" (https://youtu.be/64U0_QtxJMs)
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2) please offer some explanations to your new super weapons
Ran across something that may point to the potential cause, but not wanting to spoil anything. Anywhere this is being discussed? I haven't seen anything in Gamemaster or The Secret History---appropriate to post over there? Or hold off...
I personally get really bummed out when stuff gets spoiled...which is at odds for the conspiracy type personality I have... ::)
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But wasn't there a bright flash also?
"Hey buddy, did you see a real bright light?" (https://youtu.be/64U0_QtxJMs)
Hmm, which corp would be most likely to make a Cyberdyne/Skynet scenario? Renraku, again? Place your bets! ;D
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I personally get really bummed out when stuff gets spoiled...which is at odds for the conspiracy type personality I have... ::)
Personally, I find these "plot books" that tell the storyguides that they aren't worthy to know what's going on either to be very frustrating. Just like with CFD and some of these other plots, its all "stuff you can't really use because you have no idea what's going on, so its just flavor text for "Somewhere else". The end result is that its something interesting to read, but that never gets used. Which, since Catalyst got my money, probably doesn't bother them at all.
The reality is that I am looking for material to help *MY* campaign and "Unexplained weird stuff happening" is not doing that. Maybe in a year or two if they ever explain what's what, I might get some use out of it. Right now, nope.
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My campaigns tend to be a few years behind the actual lore, so I can easily fit conclusions in after they come out, while still exploring what might be based on the dropped hints. How things were done, only really happens if you want to let it happen again (or have runners prevent another time), it doesn't really matter much for the main timeline.
In other news, I did an Open Event on saturday where the runners were in a Faraday'd clean room when the Baltimore blackout hit. This was fun to pull! Did not expect them to turn into heroes though: they helped evacuate the building and even doused several fires. All without breaking their cover of being FDA inspector + invisible bodyguards. Later on they traded a working gun for a bunch of bicycles, to more easily get around.
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I just finished reading it, and I'm curious: Is Detroit being set up to be the new Seattle? As I understand it, outside of specific books for specific events (Boston for CFD, Toronto for the upcoming book), Seattle has always been the primary scene for Shadowrun. However after reading it, the tone seemed to imply that Detroit may be taking that spot now? Am I wrong?
Also, in regards to the Army Corps, was the thing described actually something that exists and is powerful enough to do that?
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The next SRM seasons will be in Seattle so...
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I just finished reading it, and I'm curious: Is Detroit being set up to be the new Seattle? As I understand it, outside of specific books for specific events (Boston for CFD, Toronto for the upcoming book), Seattle has always been the primary scene for Shadowrun. However after reading it, the tone seemed to imply that Detroit may be taking that spot now? Am I wrong?
Nah, just fleshing out another locale. Seattle will remain the default setting because it has a bit of everything. Detroit is basically a one-company town, and that company just picked up and left. Not great for a default setting.
Also, in regards to the Army Corps, was the thing described actually something that exists and is powerful enough to do that?
It's the new magical terror, as far as I know.
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I personally get really bummed out when stuff gets spoiled...which is at odds for the conspiracy type personality I have... ::)
Personally, I find these "plot books" that tell the storyguides that they aren't worthy to know what's going on either to be very frustrating. Just like with CFD and some of these other plots, its all "stuff you can't really use because you have no idea what's going on, so its just flavor text for "Somewhere else". The end result is that its something interesting to read, but that never gets used. Which, since Catalyst got my money, probably doesn't bother them at all.
The reality is that I am looking for material to help *MY* campaign and "Unexplained weird stuff happening" is not doing that. Maybe in a year or two if they ever explain what's what, I might get some use out of it. Right now, nope.
Ditto. These books are like the guy on a project that just wants to be "the ideas guy".
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Ditto. These books are like the guy on a project that just wants to be "the ideas guy".
Same. Example: from what I read in a review, these mysterious deus ex machina EMPs (that aren't EMPs and don’t work like EMPs) aren’t expanded upon at all. Sooooo as a GM, if I want to put my PCs through that, how do I use them? If I fill in the blanks, what do I do when Catalyst go in a different direction? I’ve seen this happen numerous times with 5e stuff and it’s kinda tiring.
You can’t run RPG sourcebooks like novella lines with cliffhanger endings. GMs need to know what’s going on. Or you need to be honest about the fact that books like Cutting Black are just preludes to SR Missions, and if you’re not running SRM they’re not designed to be useful to you.
Portfolio of a Dragon did this well. 200+ ideas and hooks, all open ended, with a formal promise in the preface that only “around ten” were planned to be used by FASA in the future. So GMs knew they had a pretty free hand for how to use the material.
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If I fill in the blanks, what do I do when Catalyst go in a different direction? I’ve seen this happen numerous times with 5e stuff and it’s kinda tiring.
You can’t run RPG sourcebooks like novella lines with cliffhanger endings. GMs need to know what’s going on.
Yep, better said.
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If I fill in the blanks, what do I do when Catalyst go in a different direction?
The same thing you would do with the hundreds of other plot ideas Shadowrun has had over the years that weren't immediately explained fully. To name a few:
--Church of the Dragon
--Dunkelzahn's death
--Anything to do with Nadja Daviar...basically ever
--The Hestaby/Lofwyr Tir Tairngire situation
--The Watergate Rift
--Aztechnology being secretly super evil
--Dragon egg clutches
--Elves and reincarnation
--Drakes
--the nature of spirits
Information on all of these were presented in sourcebooks first as teases, rumors, conflicting reports, etc., back in the good old days. If your group used them and later on printed material went in a different direction with it, you just used what you wanted and ignored the rest, or else you left it alone and gave it time to develop in official source material. This might be different somehow, but I don't see it.
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Personal I prefer getting the answers since I feel in many cases it comes off as “I know something you don’t”-bullying cliffhanging attitude.
As a GM by having the (an) official reason I can choose to ignore it or tailor it to my own story needs for all the major plots. The minor ones can be left hanging, but there needs to be answers for all the major events.
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If I fill in the blanks, what do I do when Catalyst go in a different direction?
The same thing you would do with the hundreds of other plot ideas Shadowrun has had over the years that weren't immediately explained fully. To name a few:
--Church of the Dragon
--Dunkelzahn's death
--Anything to do with Nadja Daviar...basically ever
--The Hestaby/Lofwyr Tir Tairngire situation
--The Watergate Rift
--Aztechnology being secretly super evil
--Dragon egg clutches
--Elves and reincarnation
--Drakes
--the nature of spirits
Firstly, I think hardly any of these are on remotely the same scale, in terms of their impact on the world and the PCs within it, as a mysterious attack by an overwhelming force that has turned the entire UCAS inside-out. We've had 30 years of SR play without knowing if spirits are created or summoned and we're doing OK. "What's up with Nadja Daviar" is really, really narrow and I can't imagine many tables have ever relied on it as a plot hook.
Even the ones that are bigger were explained in pretty good time. Take Dunkelzahn's death, for instance. It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say. And if you did care how the big D bought it: well, the Dragonheart novels explained all the backstory, and the first of those was published (IIRC) just a few months after the sourcebook.
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Personal I prefer getting the answers since I feel in many cases it comes off as “I know something you don’t”-bullying cliffhanging attitude.
As a GM by having the (an) official reason I can choose to ignore it or tailor it to my own story needs for all the major plots. The minor ones can be left hanging, but there needs to be answers for all the major events.
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...
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Personal I prefer getting the answers since I feel in many cases it comes off as “I know something you don’t”-bullying cliffhanging attitude.
As a GM by having the (an) official reason I can choose to ignore it or tailor it to my own story needs for all the major plots. The minor ones can be left hanging, but there needs to be answers for all the major events.
Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...
I really don’t buy that approach. In essence it says that Tables can’t be trusted with access to full information, presumably because either (or both) of:
a) Players will somehow break things by metagaming too much
b) GMs can’t be expected to build tension through the stories in their game, if people have meta-knowledge.
To both I’d say to Catalyst: trust your customers to find fun in their games, and please give them the complete playground to find that fun in.
It would be a bit different if there were updates coming out every 4-6 months that updated the whole meta-plot in a reliable and accessible way, but that certainly has not been the case in recent years.
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Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say.
I don't think so.
Placing the PCs inside the cities as the EMP goes off is a bad idea (for various reasons) but you can still use the after effects in the game without knowing the cause.
Higher demand for warez leading to increased smuggling, gang/organized crime violence as knocking out cyberware shifted the balance of power, spontaneous raids or runs within a short window before security systems get replaced, rumors of one lab or item not being affected which becomes the target of several runs at the same time, etc.
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Even the ones that are bigger were explained in pretty good time. Take Dunkelzahn's death, for instance. It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say. And if you did care how the big D bought it: well, the Dragonheart novels explained all the backstory, and the first of those was published (IIRC) just a few months after the sourcebook.
...I'm not sure any sourcebook actually clearly explains Dunkelzahn's death, but there certainly wasn't one within years of his death occurring. Within years. Literally the biggest event in UCAS history, and they only gave players hints and contradicting rumors about what happened. I don't really care if it was explained in a (pretty crappy) trilogy of novels. Shadowrun novels are not sourcebooks. Neither do I recall FASA advertising "hey, if you want the definitive explanation, read this". I didn't personally find out for about a decade that's what the Dragonheart Saga was about.
It didn't matter exactly how he died to use any of the game ideas in Portfolio of a Dragon. Whereas (say) not understanding what the "EMPs" are in Cutting Black absolutely does put a crimp in most GM's abilities to use the material, I would say.
First, I'd like to point out that comparing your difficulties with actively using a major event in your campaign (EMPs) is different from using the fallout of a major event (Dunkelzahn's will). The proper comparison would either be trying to using Dunkelzahn's assassination, which was presented with a comparable amount of questions, or comparing the fallout of Cutting Black with D's Will. The Big D biting it left a giant rift between the physical and astral planes right in the middle of DC...why? What was it? Where did it come from? What could it do? Was it going to grow? Could things come out of it? What are the consequences of its existence? And of course, who killed him anyway?
That said, Portfolio of a Dragon is one of my very favorite gaming supplements ever, just under The Book of Exalted Deeds. However, I think you're willfully ignoring some pretty major things mentioned in it, that certainly weren't addressed quickly thereafter that seemed like pretty major plot threads. What are the Keys of Power? That sounds pretty important, especially after finding out the particulars of Dunkelzahn's death. Why was he concerned with the leaders of the Tir governments revealing their real identities? Who are they, and what is the reason for their animosity towards each other? Here's something that goes pretty much completely unanswered as far as I can tell: what is the 7 year plan Dunkelzahn leaves Nadja Daviar? How specific and extensive is it, anyway? How much did it shape the future of the game world? How much of what she does going forward is from him, and how much is her idea? How are you supposed to use any of the major corporate shakeups (Draco Foundation, Miles Lanier, Arthur Vogel, Nadja Daviar) from D's will without knowing where FASA was planning on going with them? What about the fact D used a human will instead of following dragon tradition? That seemed kind of important (as does the Jewel of Memory he leaves Lofwyr), but it was several years before the developers picked that up. And obviously, the most important...
WHO KILLED DUNKELZAHN?!
Shadowrun has a long history of throwing a lot of plot threads out there and weaving some of them together over a long period of time...if they get expanded upon at all. So, I say again: use the EMPs in Cutting Black how you want and account for differences with future supplements as it happens, or wait for more explanation, the same way it's always been. I just don't see why you think the EMP thing is somehow different from any of the others.
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Whatever information my players discover about the 'EMPs' if their characters pursue that path when we get there can later be discovered to be inaccurate and that is just the path that the data was going in while whoever they liberated it from tried to figure out what happened.
Or if it turns out that Corporation or entity was behind it, deliberate misinformation to obfuscate the truth.
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I don't really care if it was explained in a (pretty crappy) trilogy of novels. Shadowrun novels are not sourcebooks. Neither do I recall FASA advertising "hey, if you want the definitive explanation, read this". I didn't personally find out for about a decade that's what the Dragonheart Saga was about.
shrug
I don't know what to tell you. I don't much care for the novels either, but they are canon, and I simply don't think that was an unreasonable way to explain what happened when the big D bought it. I just read a plot summary (probably on dumpshock) around when they were released and got on with my campaign.
First, I'd like to point out that comparing your difficulties with actively using a major event in your campaign (EMPs) is different from using the fallout of a major event (Dunkelzahn's will).
Not my difficulties, incidentally; I have no plans to buy Cutting Black.
That said, Portfolio of a Dragon is one of my very favorite gaming supplements ever, just under The Book of Exalted Deeds. However, I think you're willfully ignoring some pretty major things mentioned in it, that certainly weren't addressed quickly thereafter that seemed like pretty major plot threads. What are the Keys of Power? That sounds pretty important, especially after finding out the particulars of Dunkelzahn's death. Why was he concerned with the leaders of the Tir governments revealing their real identities? Who are they, and what is the reason for their animosity towards each other? Here's something that goes pretty much completely unanswered as far as I can tell: what is the 7 year plan Dunkelzahn leaves Nadja Daviar? How specific and extensive is it, anyway? How much did it shape the future of the game world? How much of what she does going forward is from him, and how much is her idea? How are you supposed to use any of the major corporate shakeups (Draco Foundation, Miles Lanier, Arthur Vogel, Nadja Daviar) from D's will without knowing where FASA was planning on going with them? What about the fact D used a human will instead of following dragon tradition? That seemed kind of important (as does the Jewel of Memory he leaves Lofwyr), but it was several years before the developers picked that up.
Hang on. Page 9 of Portfolio of a Dragon (which is sitting next to me as I write this) says:
"Of the 200-plus items, groups, individuals, and events mentioned in the will, FASA currently plans to use only ten or so in future products, although we cannot guarantee that we won't someday use something in the will differently than your campaign, the sheer number of items and the potential for variations on similar themes makes such an outcome unlikely."
So complaining about "this book leaves loose ends lying around" when that's explicitly the point of the book seems a little churlish, no?
So, I say again: use the EMPs in Cutting Black how you want and account for differences with future supplements as it happens, or wait for more explanation, the same way it's always been. I just don't see why you think the EMP thing is somehow different from any of the others.
It's not specifically the EMPs themselves, that's just an example that I had in my mind from reading reviews. My understand is that Cutting Black doesn't give GMs any information at all about why these massive upheavals have happened. Seems problematic, to me.
But like I said, I have no interest in buying or reading it.
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Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...
By that logic, my late Stepfather is invincible in the Deadlands universe.
Considering that I made the author cry when I explained why I wanted to put him into the game rather than myself (Kickstarter Bonuses are awesome sometimes!), well...
Anyhow, back to Shadowrun!
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Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"
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The same thing you would do with the hundreds of other plot ideas Shadowrun has had over the years that weren't immediately explained fully. To name a few:
--Church of the Dragon
--Dunkelzahn's death
--Anything to do with Nadja Daviar...basically ever
--The Hestaby/Lofwyr Tir Tairngire situation
--The Watergate Rift
--Aztechnology being secretly super evil
--Dragon egg clutches
--Elves and reincarnation
--Drakes
--the nature of spirits
Information on all of these were presented in sourcebooks first as teases, rumors, conflicting reports, etc., back in the good old days. If your group used them and later on printed material went in a different direction with it, you just used what you wanted and ignored the rest, or else you left it alone and gave it time to develop in official source material. This might be different somehow, but I don't see it.
Its not really different. This is just part and parcel of how Catalyst runs the line. But this it their first story release for the new edition. I don't expect them to change their spots, but it would be nice if stopped doing it this way. I've never liked it. I end up not using any of it unless its years (real time) later. If I use it at all, which has been increasingly less likely as they get more and more grandiose and world shaking.
The cool part of shadowrun is being cyberpunk urban fantasy and the campaign world is a big part of that. But, as I said before, I want them to publish things that help me run *MY* game. But that's not how they approach these kinds of source books, unfortunately.
I don't recall anything from FASA that worked that way, but its been a few years since they were in charge, so I could be misremembering. :P
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Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"
Did I just hear a squish???? Splorch!
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Street Sams that are way too arrogant against Lofwyr or Harlequin: "Do you bleed?"
Did I just hear a squish???? Splorch!
*sigh* I'll grab the spatula....
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Ah, but once it is written, then the players have that meta-information. No one tried killing gods in D&D before they had stats...
This is true, but dnd has also had stats for deities since very near the beginning. I remember my fighter killing Lolth in one hit with a hammer of thunderbolts at the end of the against the giants/into the demonweb chain in 1st edition. Man that makes me feel old.
But giving stats to creatures is also significantly different than a company fully drawing out a plotline they have released to the public as an important plotline.