Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: DigitalZombie on <09-14-19/0417:28>

Title: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-14-19/0417:28>
Im looking into making some houserules to the character generation rules.
In that regard I wanted to see if it was possible to create a character ( no matter how niche he would be) using the more extreme priority choices.

... and I kinda failed.
So, my challenge to you chummers is as following:
Create a character with Priority E (2) attributes.
Naturally he/she doesnt need to be a powerhouse, " meh okayish" would be good enough. Futhermore no other priority selection should be objectively better. Eg. E attributes, but A adjustment points- and put all those adjustment points into attributes. As the objectively better choice in that regard would be to switch those 2 priority choices.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: AJCarrington on <09-14-19/0854:43>
What do you want the character to "do"...face...sam...mage...hacker...etc?
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-14-19/0934:14>
What do you want the character to "do"...face...sam...mage...hacker...etc?

Yes ;)
Actually Im wondering if ANY character type is doable with E attributes

For instance in 5th ed. Attributes E was very rough, but it was doable with troll adept deckers, or some troll mage builds.

So whatever is "easiest"
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <09-14-19/0954:55>
What do you want the character to "do"...face...sam...mage...hacker...etc?

Yes ;)
Actually Im wondering if ANY character type is doable with E attributes

For instance in 5th ed. Attributes E was very rough, but it was doable with troll adept deckers, or some troll mage builds.

So whatever is "easiest"

Define doable.

With enough ware and a high racial you can get passable attributes for decent pools. Youíll lack depth, your advancement will be stunted, people with a ounce of optimism will out class you but you can probably get by for a couple runs.

Take elf c 9 attribute points put 6 into agility the remaining into edge. Your 2 points out into body. Get ware for +4 soak, + 4 strength/agility/reaction(comes with initiative dice most likely) ware for +x logic so you arenít terrible.  Buy up intuition to 3 with karma. Skills firearms 6 and you are a decent shooter.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-14-19/1543:48>

Define doable.


That would be a score of at least " meh okayish" on the universal player character power and usability scale.

What?! Are you implying that wasnt useful at all?
Ok, If a GM was handing out some premade characters to you and your group, the majority got the premades from CRB, and you were stuck with an attribute E character he made himself.
If you then think something along the lines of " what the... that $%+# GM hates me!" Then the character has failed.
If you at least think " what the... hhm interesting maybe I can make this work"
Then the character has succeeded.
FURTHERMORE if its possible to make a variant of the character, with atleast equal or better scores in everything, the character has also failed.
For instance:
Jimmy maybe has C in adjustment and E in attributes. He used all his C adjustment points on increasing his dwarven willpower and body to respectable levels.
That character would fail. because it would be objectively better to switch attributes E with adjustment points C. As jimmy maybe would gain 3 attribute points to distribute, without loosing anything


Now, on to your elven shooter.
Remember with  E attributes you would also be either awakened or emerged. Now as the current rules might be lacking a bit on the essence and magic interaction side. We must make some assumptions ourselves here, I guess.
I think your elven shooter has burned out, which begs the question of wouldnt he had been better of with Special at E? And thus be objectively better with a higher attribute choice?
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <09-14-19/1616:00>
Burnout adept has been one of the more powerful options for a couple editions now.  If you keep the essence loss 5 or below you still get your 1 magic from D. +1 in firearms.

Now your furthermore addendum. I seriously doubt will ever let E attributes be doable.  There will probably always be a better way to get there both short and long term views of the character. I'd say generally you can make one functional enough for a one shot. Outside that unless you are in a group of people who actively rail against optimization, I don't see it happening and working in the long run.  And even the one shot, you'd probably look weak but still be bale to get by.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Kirklins on <09-14-19/1625:28>
I see what you're saying re the dwarf, but I think you're adding an unnecessary tier of rejection. If he's using the adjustment to raise attributes he's sacrificing edge or magic for the compensation.

Narratively, I'm picturing the attribute E as severely disad antaged. Grew up in deep sprawl, malnourished and without formal education, maybe the 'wrong' meta for the area. Maybe despite this he's a dwarf with Will and body, but he's a scrawny stick of a dwarf.

I'll play with your challenge later but thought I'd raise that point now.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-15-19/1043:55>
 
I see what you're saying re the dwarf, but I think you're adding an unnecessary tier of rejection. If he's using the adjustment to raise attributes he's sacrificing edge or magic for the compensation.

Oh dont get me wrong, I think its totally fine to use some adjustment  points on attributes.
But as ypu only get around half as many adjustment points as attribute points, its often better to prioritise the attribute column.
Take our elven shootet here as an example, 6 adjustment points into agility, and buying intuition up to 3.
If you instead had switched the adjustment points column and the attribute column around, you would have had enough attribute points for the same stats, (+2 to be put somewhere else).
You could then have used karma to upgrade your edge from 2 to 4.
 Creating near identical characters, although the latter would (subjectively ) be somewhat ahead.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-15-19/2205:26>
Attributes E... obviously most things you can do with that selection you could have done better by putting something else in E.

But that's the catch.  As already mentioned upthread, we're necessarily talking about a Magician or a Technomancer since Magic must be D or higher.  By extension, we're also talking about a character idea that absolutely requires resources D or higher.  And I'm not sure that there really are all that many.. if ANY.. character ideas that's describing.  What mages or technomancers simply MUST have a decent amount of resources?  Only thing that's potentially coming to mind is a dwarven TM who wants to control lots of drones.  Especially a frail one who gets around in a drone wheelchair or something and intends on spending as much time in VR as possible thereby rendering physical stats all more or less moot anyway...

So am I saying noone will be picking Attributes E anyway?  Sort of.  It's looking to me to be primarily relevant in a future-minded kind of way when presumably a Sum-to-Ten priority option is reintroduced.  Or, now, if you're playing a street scum campaign.  And 2 points to spread around isn't THAT bad, when you're talking about street scum... remember 2s are now "average". The only way to have a sub-average stat in 6we is to put no points in it at all, leaving it at 1.  There's little problem with street scum being potentially sub-standard in a lot of attributes... ESPECIALLY if you refuse to pick higher than E for your attributes!
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: ChromeVole on <09-20-19/1256:46>
Well, this is one of those things that sat like a splinter in my mind until I was forced to make an account and post a character.

Sam Wendel is a dwarf, the son of two Ares wage slaves. He awakened early, but it was a rough awakening and he suffered a massive brain bleed. His parents went deep into debt providing him with all the care he needed, and eventually he regained consciousness and started the long rehabilitation process. He managed to learn to call out to and spend time with spirits, eventually feeling a connection with his mentor. Now with dreams of snakes drifting into his head and a family too deep in debt to ever escape, he takes on the name Minima and tries to run the shadows.

Minima
Priorities:
A Magic (mystic adept, 4 power points)
B Resources
C Metatype (Dwarf)
D Skills
E Attributes

Body - 2[3]      
Agility - 1[2]      
Reaction - 2[3](10 karma spent)
Strength - 2[3]      
Willpower  3      
Logic - 3      
Intuition - 2(10 karma spent)
Charisma - 1
Edge    - 4      
Magic - 5      
Essence - 5.04      
Initiative - 4+1D6      

Qualities
Mentor Spirit (snake) (10)

Dependants 2 (parents) (-8)
Simsense Vertigo (-6)
SINer (-8)
Unsteady Hands (-4)

Skills
Astral - 3 - (30 karma)
Biotech - 1 - (5 karma)
Conjuring  - 6 - Spec summoning (5 karma for the specialization)
Perception - 6 - Spec hearing (5 karma for the specialization)
Stealth - 4

Knowledge skills
English
Theraputic medications
Puzzles
News trids
Arcana
Paracritters

Cyber/bioware
Platelet factories (Delta) - 0.1
Suprathyroid gland (Alpha) - 0.56
Symbiotes 3 (Delta) - 0.3

Adept powers (built assuming that as long as magic is above 4 one can keep all 4 character creation power points)
Kinesics - mentor
Astral Perception - 1
Combat Sense - 0.5
Danger Sense - 0.5
Perception   1 - 0.5
Stealth   2 - 1
Traceless Walk - 0.5

Contacts
Ed Nelwin [Street doc] Connection: 3 Loyalty: 3 (helps keep himself supplied with symbiote nutrients)

Gear
Armor clothing
-Chemical protection
-Electricity resistance
Renraku Sensei [R3, D/F 2/0, P1]
Glasses 2
-Image link
-Flare compensation
Earbuds 2
-Sound Link
-Audio Enhancement
Subvocal mic
Standard credsticks x 5
Silver credstick (800 nuyen)
Fake SIN 4 (Dan Dower)
Fake Lincense 4 (magic)
Ford Americar
Lifestyle Middle (6850 nuyen per month, +685 in taxes, only one month paid)

1 leftover Karma

Minima can at least summon spirits (13 dice pool, but only 6 to soak), avoid getting caught/ambushed(perception+combat sense+danger sense might help that low intuition, stealth+traceless walk might help with low agility), and can probably heal from your encounters if you survive.
Admittedly, this isn't exactly an optimal build, but has some roleplay hooks and a lot of growth potential. The quest to meet a fixer, find a talismonger, learn to cast spells, make a second friend, all that good stuff...
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-20-19/1421:23>
I could see using that priority array to build a Dwarf TM Paparazzo.  Maybe swap metatype and resources, depending on how all-in I wanted to go with cyber rather than drones.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-20-19/1646:08>
[...]
Charisma - 1
[...]
Contacts
Ed Nelwin [Street doc] Connection: 3 Loyalty: 3 (helps keep himself supplied with symbiote nutrients)
Both Connection and Loyalty Rating cant be higher than Charisma (p.67 as well ^^)

Despite those minor errors, I like your concept and i thought about this challenge as well. In general you can produce either a one hit pony with maxed 1 stat or a cool char like yours with a "soul". But in the end the thread starter is right, "A" on Attributes is kind of a no brainer ...




Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-20-19/1731:08>
I actually found a way now to make the E Attributes matter. On Page 111-112 is described how to build Prime Runners. And the Inferior Prime Runner has B, C, D, E, E.

So an Inferior Prime Runner Bongo ;) looks like this:

Bongo the one Hitter
B Ressources 275.000 Nuyen
Alphaware Troll Muscle Augmentation IV 163.680 Nuyen 0,64 Essence
Troll Bone Lacing I 5500 Nuyen 0,3 Essence
3x Troll Size Qi Focus 4 39.600 Nuyen -24 Karma

C Magic  2 (Raise to 4 with 35 Karma)

Body 1(2*)  Agility 1 Reaction1  Strength4( 8 ) Willpower1 Logic 1 Intuition 1 Charisma 1 Magic 4(3) Edge 1

Qualities
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird) (-10 Karma)
+Troll qualities
Impaired Attribute Logic III +24 Karma

D Skills (16)
Close Combat 6 (Unarmed)
Perception 1
Influence (Intimidation) 1
Stealth (Sneaking) 5

E Race Troll (1) (Str)

E Attributes (2) (Str)
Adept Powers
Critical Strike 8 (4 from Powerpoints; 3 from 12 Qi; 1 free from Mentor Spirit)

 his unarmed DV of:
8/2 Str  +1 from Troll +1 from Bone Lacing , +8 from Critical Strike = 14 DV


Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Macbrea on <09-21-19/1024:11>
This is what happens when your parents put you in the wrong program.


Name/Primary Alias: Whiskey Sour
Metatype: Elf
Ethnicity: Japanese Eurasian
Age: 23   Sex: Male  Height: 1.85m  Weight 80 kg
Reputation: 0                    Heat: 0
Karma: 0   Total Karma: 50  Misc: : 50 spent
Archetype: Decker/Mage

ATTRIBUTES (2 Attributes + 9 Metahuman (ACME), Magic 5)
Body:      2(10 Karma)                Essence: 3
Agility:   4                            Magic: 6 (3)
Reaction:  2(10 Karma)             Initiative: 4+1d6
Strength:  1                Matrix Initiative: 4+1d6
Willpower: 3                Astral Initiative: N/A
Logic:     2(10 Karma)              Composure: 6
Intuition: 2(10 Karma)       Judge Intentions: 4
Charisma:  4                           Memory: 4
Edge:      3                       Lift/Carry: 4 (40kg)
Edge Points:@@@OOOO                  Movement: 10
Unarmed AR: 4                  Defense Rating: 5

Physical: 10 (3/3/3/1)
Stun: 10  (3/3/3/1)

QUALITIES: 9 Karma Cost
Low Light Vision (Elf replaced by cybereyes)
Analytical Mind (3 Karma)
Focused Concentration 2 (24 Karma)
Honorbound (Code of Bushido) (-10 Karma)
Sinner (Johnny Von, Citizen: Renraku Corporation, -8 Karma)


SKILLS (16 Skills)
Cracking 3
Electronics 3
Engineering 2
Firearms 2
Perception 2
Sorcery 4
Stealth 2

KNOWLEDGE/LANGUAGE SKILLS
Japanese (N)
English
Hacker Groups
Security Systems

SPELLS Unaltered Magic x 2
Lightning Bolt, Lightning Ball, Mana Bolt, Mana Ball, Analyze Device
Combat Sense, Cleansing Heal, Heal, Increase Reflexes, Increase Attribute

CYBERNETICS/AUGMENTATIONS: 3.0 ESS (240,000Y)
Cyberjack Rating 4 (D/F: 7/6, MatInit: +2, ESS 2.3)
Headware: Cyberdeck: Renraku Kitsune (DR:4, Attr:7/6 APS:8 CAP: 4 Ess: 0.4)
--PROGRAMS: armor, browse, configurator, edit, exploit, overclock, signal scrubber, stealth, toolbox, trace
Headware: Delta Grade Cybereyes Rating 3 (ESS: .15, CAP: 8 )
--Cybereyes: Delta Grade on ALL: Smartlink (ESS: .1, CAP: [3] ), Low Light Vision (ESS:.05, CAP: [2] )   

CONTACTS (16 points)
Yakuza Mob Boss (Eddy Yang, Connection 4, Loyalty 4)
Yakuza Decker Girl (Jenny Soy, Connections 4, Loyalty 4)

IDS / LIFESTYLES / CURRENCY
Primary Lifestyle: Medium (1 Month)
Nuyen:  5,000Y                                 
Licenses:
Fake IDs/Related Lifestyles/ Funds / licenses (10K)
Hero Protagonist, Rating 4, Medium Lifestyle (Shipping Container storage), Ares Predator (Rating 4)


EQUIPMENT (1620Y)
Ares Predator VI  (DV 3P, Modes: SA/BF, AR 10(12)/10(12)/8(10)/-/-, Ammo 15(c)) 
-- Smartgun Operation, Variable Ammo Feed
-- 4 Clips 15(c) (caseless Ammunition)
Armored Vest DR+3 Capacity 6   
Erika Elite Commlink (DR 4, D/F 2/1, APS 2)
-- Running Hero Protagonist, Fake SIN Rating 4

Priorities:
Magic A (Apected: 5 Magic)
Resources B (275,000Y)
Metahuman E (Elf [9])
Skills D (16)
Atrribute E (2)



Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-21-19/1641:56>
ATTRIBUTES (2 Attributes + 9 Metahuman (ACME), Magic 5)
Body:      2(10 Karma)             
Agility:   4                           
Reaction:  2(10 Karma)             I
Strength:  1               
Willpower: 3               
Logic:     2(10 Karma)             
Intuition: 2(10 Karma)     
Charisma:  4                           
Edge:      3                       

Metahuman C (Elf [9])


Pretty cool :)

If you go Dwarf instead of Elf you can take 7 Willpower; 3 Body. Raise Charisma to 2 with 10 Karma (instead of Body). Raises the cost for the gear, but Willpower helps as Decker running silent and helps the drain of the aspected sorcerer side ^^

But maybe thats some kind of "themed char" so needs beeing an elf ?
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-22-19/1529:37>
Well, this is one of those things that sat like a splinter in my mind until I was forced to make an account and post a character.
Well, Im glad to have placed that splinter, welcome onboard :)

Well, this is one of those things that sat like a splinter in my mind until I was forced to make an account and post a character.


Minima
Priorities:
A Magic (mystic adept, 4 power points)
B Resources
C Metatype (Dwarf)
D Skills
E Attributes

Body - 2[3]      
Agility - 1[2]      
Reaction - 2[3](10 karma spent)
Strength - 2[3]      
Willpower  3      
Logic - 3      
Intuition - 2(10 karma spent)
Charisma - 1
Edge    - 4      
Magic - 5      
Essence - 5.04      
Initiative - 4+1D6      


Minima can at least summon spirits (13 dice pool, but only 6 to soak), avoid getting caught/ambushed(perception+combat sense+danger sense might help that low intuition, stealth+traceless walk might help with low agility), and can probably heal from your encounters if you survive.
Admittedly, this isn't exactly an optimal build, but has some roleplay hooks and a lot of growth potential. The quest to meet a fixer, find a talismonger, learn to cast spells, make a second friend, all that good stuff...

Nice, it doesnt seem like I can rebuild him with higher attrinutes without loosing some skills or edge- so that part is good.

Even though he has subpar attributes, you managed to only have a single dumpstat,  I like that bioware, it really gives him that needed boost. I think he passed the test.

 
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-22-19/1555:21>
Heres my 2 cent, should be RAW:

Bongo the one Hitter
A Magic 4
B Ressources

Body 3(4*)  Agility 1 Reaction1  Strength9(13) Willpower1 Logic 1 Intuition 1 Charisma 1 Magic 5(4) Edge 1

C Race Troll (9) ( 8 Strength; 1 Magic)

D Skills (16)

E Attributes


Yikes thats some nasty dmg, I havent read much up on qi focus in 6th ed. But that sure seems super crazy... he can make people into chunky salsa, just with his 2 fists.
So I think that part is good, but theres a problem :) if we switch race and attributes with eachother, then he wouldnt loose anything, but actually end up with 4 more attribute points, which he cpuld use on body or agility for instance.

So sadly Bongo the one hitter can be made objectively better by switching adjustment points and attributes.

Regarding Whiskey sour...
Hmm he is a bit more tricky.
But I think if you also switched adjustment priority with attributes you would come out ahead.
Use your 1 adjustment point from E on magic. Buy edge up from 1 to 3 for 25 karma.
Use your 12 attribute poonts from C and you would actually have the same scores as now, but saving the 4◊10 karma ( -25 from edge).

I tried to build one similar to yours. I thought to myself what type of character would end up with that low attribute choice? The kind of character that wanted to do too much - a mystic adept hacker. He needs cash, a magic score, hackimg and magicak skills and some more magic points- leaving attributes in the dust.
But I think your character came a lot closer to the finish line than mine :/

Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-22-19/1601:07>
So sadly Bongo the one hitter can be made objectively better by switching adjustment points and attributes.

Hehe you are right, to be honest i thought magic could only be raised using the Racial points :) but its true i see it now
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <09-22-19/1813:46>
This kind of points out for me how asinine the magic column is for the setting. Itís supposed to be super rare but you have to almost fight not to be magically active.
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-22-19/1906:58>
I guess i found a way now using Inferior Prime Runner rules. Modified the previous post by accident instead of quoting ^^
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-24-19/1538:09>
This kind of points out for me how asinine the magic column is for the setting. Itís supposed to be super rare but you have to almost fight not to be magically active.

I must admit, I dont understand why full mages suddenly can start with a D on the priority chart. C or higher would have worked just fine.


I actually found a way now to make the E Attributes matter. On Page 111-112 is described how to build Prime Runners. And the Inferior Prime Runner has B, C, D, E, E.

Hey man, thats #$%*#  cheating! - 10 karma... But + 11 for ingenuity.  ;)
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: DigitalZombie on <09-24-19/1548:10>
I actually have another Challenge as well.
Its its Linda like the attributes E, just reversed a bit.
Adjustment points A?

With adjustment points A, you can have max Edge and magic/resonance, but you are also "forced" to out some points into your regular metatypes attributes. (Body, strenght or willpower depending on metatypes).
But wouldnt you often (99%+) of the time be Better of with having Adjustment points lower and attributes higher? Thats my stance anyway, prove me wrong ;)
Title: Re: Character creation challenge
Post by: CigarSmoker on <09-25-19/0323:54>
But wouldnt you often (99%+) of the time be Better of with having Adjustment points lower and attributes higher? Thats my stance anyway, prove me wrong ;)

It is 100% I think.

It makes only sense if some future Advanced Rules bring more Race options that require A Priority.