Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Moonrunner on (09:30:57/09-11-19)

Title: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (09:30:57/09-11-19)
One of the most consistent criticisms I keep seeing with SR6 is that people do not like that armor does not seem to add to soak rolls at all and only to Defense.  I thought I had seen some armor in the game that adds to Body for soak rolls as well.

Am I correct or missing something?
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:39:16/09-11-19)
You might be thinking of the QSR armor spell (which likely is wrong) or augmentations boosting both at the same time. In 6w only Hardened Armor boosts DR and soak, we suspect Milspec will have that.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (14:31:28/09-11-19)
So, the +1 level of Natural Armor that Dermal Deposits adds is only to your DR? It does not get added to your Body also, for Soak rolls?

What about the +4 Damage Resist you get from 4 levels of Bone Density?
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (16:30:01/09-11-19)
Quote from: p291
You gain its rating as extra Body when resisting physical damage.

Bone density explicitly augments your body rating during soak rolls.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (17:19:03/09-11-19)
I am asking because on my Physical Adept character currently I have my Soak roll set at 11.  Body (3) + Armored Vest (3) + Bone Density lvl 4 (4) + Dermal Deposits (1) = 11 total soak.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (17:27:16/09-11-19)
It should be 7 (3 body + 4 from bone density) against physical damage and just 3 against stun damage (if I'm reading bone density right)

Dermal Deposits gives natural armor which works like normal armor (provides defense rating, not soak)
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:06:18/09-11-19)
"Your Body attribute is increased by the bone density rating for the purpose of Damage Resistance tests."

Stun damage is still resisted with a Damage Resistance test, so I don't see why it wouldn't work against stun.

The adept has 3+3+1=7 Defense Rating, and 3+4=7 soak.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (18:14:46/09-11-19)
"Your Body attribute is increased by the bone density rating for the purpose of Damage Resistance tests."

Where is that from? Above I quoted the text from the bone density augmentation section and it specifically mentions physical damage
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (18:17:07/09-11-19)
Oh, bone density was extensively errataed, I'm looking at the pdf which has the updates baked in.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:19:39/09-11-19)
Ah, it seems they errata'd that. However, note it says "physical damage", not "Physical damage". What that simply would mean is the damage itself must be physical in nature, so it won't help with astral/matrix/non-physical-damage combat spells at all.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:27:53/09-11-19)
Ah, it seems they errata'd that. However, note it says "physical damage", not "Physical damage". What that simply would mean is the damage itself must be physical in nature, so it won't help with astral/matrix/non-physical-damage combat spells at all.

This is how I read it too.  Works against both Physical and Stun, but only so long as the damage isn't from Astral Combat, Drain, Matrix Biofeedback, Drugs/Toxins, etc. 
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (18:36:05/09-11-19)
That I can agree with (even if I hate having to distinguish based on capitalization).

I would assume weapons tagged with elemental damage are also not physical damage? I'm not sure the book defines lower case physical damage anywhere.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:45:57/09-11-19)
That I can agree with (even if I hate having to distinguish based on capitalization).

I would assume weapons tagged with elemental damage are also not physical damage? I'm not sure the book defines lower case physical damage anywhere.

I'd say it's more GM call.  Stick-n-Shock electrical damage bullets? Probably get the bonus from enhanced bones.   A flamethrower? If I were GM, I'd say no.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (20:03:43/09-11-19)
This game is mystifying as hell to me.  Can anyone tell me if my pools are correct?

AR (Unarmed) - Reaction (8 eight ) + Strength (9) + Bone Density (2) = 19  [not sure about Bone Density here because per the errata it says I would get +2 damage resist....so it makes it seem like this would be for soak]

DR - Body (3) + Armor Vest (3) + Bone Density lvl 4 (4) + Dermal Deposits (1) = 11 [I think Body might not get added here since it is for soak and I also think that the +1 from Dermal Deposits would be for soak as well because the description says (1 lvl of natural armor) or does armor always make you harder to hit and never makes you able to soak damage better?

DV (Unarmed) - 1/2 Str rounded up is (5) + Dermal Deposits (1) + Bone Density (2) + Critical Strike (2) levels...1 from Mentor Spirit: Thunderbird and the other is from buying 1 level of Critical Strike) = 10

Soak - Body (3) + Bone Density (4) = 7

I'm a tad confused now.  I know when I dodge an incoming attack it is my Reaction (8) + Intuition (5) = 13.  I don't think any of m bioware adds to me being harder to hit when I am actually rolling to dodge.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (20:15:50/09-11-19)
AR: actually it's 20, Bone Density 4 is +3 AR not +2
DR: only Body+Armor+Dermal Deposits, Bone Density does not provide Defence Rating from my reading (although I wish they used "soaking" instead of "resisting", resisting damage is not a thing in the rules)
DV: correct
Soak: correct (for physical damage, just 3 for other damage)

(the errata talks about changing the DV values for bone density not "damage resist")
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (20:38:21/09-11-19)
AR: actually it's 20, Bone Density 4 is +3 AR not +2
DR: only Body+Armor+Dermal Deposits, Bone Density does not provide Defence Rating from my reading (although I wish they used "soaking" instead of "resisting", resisting damage is not a thing in the rules)
DV: correct
Soak: correct (for physical damage, just 3 for other damage)

(the errata talks about changing the DV values for bone density not "damage resist")

Bone Density 4 got errated to +2 DV.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (20:57:17/09-11-19)
Yes, +2DV, the AR bonus is +3

The table from the pdf with that errata baked in it
Code: [Select]
bone density ratings
RATING DV AR
1     +1 +1
2     +1 +2
3     +2 +2
4     +2 +3
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (21:15:29/09-11-19)
So given it takes a strength of 3 to match a katanas damage and strength+reaction+3 will get past 10 fast the dream of the Katana wielding street sam isnt alive here as well.


Edit to clarify this was in response to the bone density comments and was assuming a sam has that for the 3 strength calculations
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (22:39:35/09-11-19)
Without augmentations of some form it takes a str of 7 to get unarmed DV of 4, a troll will do it with str 5 thanks to the dermal deposits
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (22:43:01/09-11-19)
Can you all please help me to calculate my final dice pools? I just want to ensure I am correct.

ATTRIBUTES:

BODY: 3
AGILITY: 7 (11)
REACTION: 5 (8)
STRENGTH: 5 (9)
WILLPOWER: 3
LOGIC: 2
INTUITION: 5
CHARISMA: 2
EDGE: 2
ESSENCE: 0.31
MAGIC: 1 (2)

CLOSE COMBAT: 6 (UNARMED) (8*)

DICE POOLS

ATTACK RATING (AR) [UNARMED] REACTION (8) + STRENGTH (9) + BONE DENSITY (3) = 20
DEFENSE RATING (DR) BODY (3) + ARMOR VEST (3) + DERMAL DEPOSITS (1) = 7
DAMAGE VALUE (DV) [UNARMED] STRENGTH <rounded up> (5) + DERMAL DEPOSITS (1) + BONE DENSITY (2) + 2 levels of CRITICAL STRIKE (2) = 10
SOAK ROLL BODY (3) + BONE DENSITY (4) = 7
ATTACK ROLL [UNARMED] CLOSE COMBAT (UNARMED) (8) + AGILITY (11) = 19
DEFENSE ROLL REACTION (8) + INTUITION (5) = 13

Note: All the smile emojis ae actually the number eight.  I am trying to see where to turn this option off.

Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (23:02:55/09-11-19)
So breaking it down you have:
Attributes A for 32 points
Skills ?
Resources ?
Magic D
Metatype C? for Elf and 9 points?

Dermal Deposits bought as a quality?

Some things that stand out:
- I'm not sure if you have spent all your adjustment points (I see 2 spent? 1 for edge 2 and 1 for magic 2)
- You have magic 2 but also an essence of 0.31, getting essence that low would have reduced your magic by 6... (I know the rules don't say your magic cap drops when you lose essence, but have you checked with your gm? And then are you spending your adjustment points to raise magic after getting cybered up? Again check it's going to fly with your gm)
- You need at least magic priority C to get Critical Strike 2, buying up magic with adjustment points does not give you power points

You pool calculations look right though

I have to ask though: why are you making an adept? with the amount of Bioware you are throwing in I'm not sure it's worth going for the magic side of things
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (00:11:56/09-12-19)
Without augmentations of some form it takes a str of 7 to get unarmed DV of 4, a troll will do it with str 5 thanks to the dermal deposits

Yeah.  But I cant conceive of a street sam not taking bone density style ware. Its the only way to get more soak. Maybe at char gen they might pass because delta is pretty affordable just availability 7 so out of char gen limits.

I never got any bone enhancements increasing the damage like they do. Its been weird since they showed up. They are just built in brass knucks. Though no idea why they help you soak vs bullets but hey its tradition.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (00:44:11/09-12-19)
So breaking it down you have:
Attributes A for 32 points
Skills ?
Resources ?
Magic D
Metatype C? for Elf and 9 points?

Dermal Deposits bought as a quality?

Some things that stand out:
- I'm not sure if you have spent all your adjustment points (I see 2 spent? 1 for edge 2 and 1 for magic 2)
- You have magic 2 but also an essence of 0.31, getting essence that low would have reduced your magic by 6... (I know the rules don't say your magic cap drops when you lose essence, but have you checked with your gm? And then are you spending your adjustment points to raise magic after getting cybered up? Again check it's going to fly with your gm)
- You need at least magic priority C to get Critical Strike 2, buying up magic with adjustment points does not give you power points

You pool calculations look right though

I have to ask though: why are you making an adept? with the amount of Bioware you are throwing in I'm not sure it's worth going for the magic side of things


Hobbes created the character for me.  Here is what he wrote for it:

"
Metatype   E
Attributes   A
Skills   C
Magic   D
Resources   B

   
S   5 (9)
A   7 (11)
R   5 (8  )
B   3  (+4 to Soak)
I   5
L   2
C   2
W   3
Magic 1
Essence 0.31
Edge 2

                     Karma
Close Combat   6   
Stealth          4   
Perception          5   
Athletics           5   
Engineering   1    5
Con                   1    5
Influence           1    5
Outdoors           1    5
     
Specializations     
Archery               5
Acting               5
Unarmed               5
Visual               5

Other Karma spends
Magic +1               5
Qualities               4
Nuyen               1
   Total:                50


Qualities
Dermal Deposits      12
Mentor Spirit, Thunderbird      10
Impaired Logic  2      -16
Addiction 1 Week      -2

Adept Powers   
Critical Strike   Thunderbird
Critical Strike   1 PP

Augment   
Bone Density   4  alpha
Muscle Replace   4  Used
Synap   3  Used

50,500 Nuyen remaining.  2 Knowledge skills remain.

7 DV Unarmed Damage, with 19 Dice.  Should be one-shotting most stuff.  Could pick up 2 more Karma from Negative Qualities if you want.

For a Katana user dump Str and Dermal Deposits, put the attribute points into Body and Charisma.  You lose a point of DV, but you're still scary."
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (01:40:22/09-12-19)
Aaaah, I see.. the full numbers make sense

Strictly legal by RAW, but I'm pretty sure there's a couple of things that are not quite in the spirit.
Specifically under RAW the following things happen:
Pick magic D, this gives you 1 magic and 1 power point.
Drop essence to 0.31, this causes you to lose 6 magic, however the adept section can be interpreted as you not losing the power point. Also in previous editions this would have dropped your magic cap to 0, it's unclear if the fact this is not mentioned in sr6 is an oversight or deliberate
Buy Magic 1 with karma, it's unclear if this actually gives you a power point during character creation...

The stats you posted above are correct, other than the magic score which should be 1 not 2. I would really check this character with your gm before playing though

Or your could drop the magic part completely, and find yourself with some extra attribute points. All you lose is the 2 points of DV from Critical Strike (but you are still hitting as hard as panther xxl)
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (02:28:01/09-12-19)
Note that Hobbes is following 'if step 3 impacts step 4, and you can take a quality to make your attribute point or skill point expense legal, then obviously you can do chargen in any random order'.

Which I do not follow and not many GMs will. So even if we do not get burnout rules for Adepts, chargen order is FIRST karma, THEN Gear. So your adept would have to buy magic back in-game, again using the lack of burnout rules. You cannot buy the point back in chargen.

(Heck, under the 'any order' rule you could spend karma on a skill or attribute then points. Good luck trying to convince your GM of that.)
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Moonrunner on (02:39:47/09-12-19)
Note that Hobbes is following 'if step 3 impacts step 4, and you can take a quality to make your attribute point or skill point expense legal, then obviously you can do chargen in any random order'.

Which I do not follow and not many GMs will. So even if we do not get burnout rules for Adepts, chargen order is FIRST karma, THEN Gear. So your adept would have to buy magic back in-game, again using the lack of burnout rules. You cannot buy the point back in chargen.

(Heck, under the 'any order' rule you could spend karma on a skill or attribute then points. Good luck trying to convince your GM of that.)

I am not sure I'm following all you are saying here.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: sigfriedmcwild on (02:44:52/09-12-19)
He's saying that the karma spend used to buy magic up from 0 to 1 by RAW happens before the bioware is bought. But before bioware is bought you already have 1 magic so you can't buy 1 point for 5 karma and even if you did, you would lose it as soon as you start buying all the bioware.

Which circles back to: it's probably not worth it to invest in magic at all, if you drop that the character is perfectly fine and legal under any reading of the rules.
Title: Re: Does some armor also help with soak?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (03:45:53/09-12-19)
That yes. You're better off just playing a Street Sam.