Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Antique on <09-04-19/1636:47>

Title: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Antique on <09-04-19/1636:47>
PC1 is walking down main street with a trenchcoat and hidden on him are 5 grenades, 1 ingram and an ares predator. His comlink is rating 6. Every WIRELESS devices is turned on. Grenades and ingram are linked to his comlink PAN.
So what does Gruff the cop sees when he looks at PC1?
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-04-19/1652:05>
It depends on whether the observer is currently using AR or is not using any Matrix User Mode at all.

Anyone with a commlink and image link can see AROs, but that's not the same thing as being in AR.  At least not in 6we, at least.  (My understanding in 5e was that the trinay condition everyone was in at all times was "No Commlink/Commlink is shut off, AR, and VR. Whether I grokked that correctly or not for 5e, that's not how it is in 6we....)

So if the cop is just "hanging out" all normal like, he'll only see the guns and grenades if he passes a perception test as described in the concealing gear rules (pg 246).  However, PC1 could still be broadcasting AROs that are evident to everyone nearby with a commlink and imagelink.  So if a hacker makes PC1 broadcast a holographic red arrow that flashes "GUN HIDDEN HERE" the cop will still see that.

OTOH if the cop is actively using AR, a matrix perception test against his PAN is what's called for (see pg. 182-183).  Now if the guns and grenades aren't running silent, there's no need to spot them. They're just automagically visible to anyone who bothers to perform a matrix perception check, although a matrix perception check still could get specific details at GM discretion, like how long the user has owned it, what specific make/model gun, etc.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Hobbes on <09-04-19/1727:00>
6E Matrix Perception tests have a one minute base time unless you've got a Cyberbeck or Resonance Attribute.  So if Guy with lots of bombs is is running silent he is fine until a dedicated Matrix Security person checks him out in AR.

5E Matrix Perception is a Complex Action (normally) so even if Guy with Lots of Bombs is running silent anyone that takes a tick to check out his PAN will likely spot the Icons unless G.w.L.o.B. has a really fancy Commlink with some Sleaze.  Then it's an opposed test.

If G.w.L.o.B. isn't running silent the AR Icons would be obvious to anyone in AR (or VR), 5th Edition would be everyone within 100m.  6th Edition it's unspecified and the GM can make the call.   

Edit: Sorry, or the Wrapper program needs to be running.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: CanRay on <09-04-19/2138:44>
It also depends on how cranked up the person has their AR settings.

The recent No Future book with it's slipcover provides an excellent example of just how little you can see, and how much it can twist a world view.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Banshee on <09-05-19/0813:45>
If all devices are linked to his Commlink PAN then all the cop would see is the PAN as a casual observer, but if the cop then makes a matrix perception check then he will see all active wireless devices unless the guy is actively hiding them and then it becomes an opposed test
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-05-19/0855:39>
If all devices are linked to his Commlink PAN then all the cop would see is the PAN as a casual observer, but if the cop then makes a matrix perception check then he will see all active wireless devices unless the guy is actively hiding them and then it becomes an opposed test
How often are, say, beat cops on patrol doing Matrix Perception checks? How often would lobby security guards in a moderately secure building do so? I just realised I have no real feel for how often players should face this.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Hobbes on <09-05-19/0946:13>
In 5E Matrix Perception is a single complex action, so it's probably routinely done.  6E Matrix Perception is a Minute so, almost never done by anything other than a Matrix Specialist.  And odds are slim the guy with the 60K Nuyen Cyberdeck is just watching people come through the Lobby. 

For 6E I would say a Matrix Perception check would be part of an escalation if the PCs have done something to raise suspicion.  Guard or beat cop calls in the Matrix support if they suspect something, or takes the full Minute to scrutinize the PAN Icons. 
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Banshee on <09-05-19/0949:42>
Well when I run things, street cops usually don't bother with checking you out unless there is something obvious that draws attention and therefore triggers further investigation.

Security guards are a different matter, but much the same thing if you are in a "public" area ... but if you have to get past them into a secure area they will do a detailed check at a minimum unless you have some good method of making them think otherwise.

In other words ... if you are in a public area don't be wearing obvious armor and packing any kind of heat unless it is easily concealable, don't be doing any suspicious behavior, and don't cause any trouble ... look like you belong there. Most importantly do not run SILENT!!!! Number one give away in a situation like that is to stand out in a crowd of nice legal wage slaves by hiding something you would normally leave wide open. Even if it just a simple burner commlink ... make sure you have a reliable fake SIN on it and run it public!
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-05-19/1004:28>
*Random Matrix Perception* 2 Concealed weapons, Firearms and Concealed Carry license, idgaf
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-05-19/1018:45>
In 5E Matrix Perception is a single complex action, so it's probably routinely done.  6E Matrix Perception is a Minute so, almost never done by anything other than a Matrix Specialist.  And odds are slim the guy with the 60K Nuyen Cyberdeck is just watching people come through the Lobby. 
Right, this is the right sort of tone I want to strike for my table. And I like that chance in Matrix Perception time from 5->6e, it supports what I want: hostile Matrix Perception is a thing, but not a thing you have to think about constantly.

In other words ... if you are in a public area don't be wearing obvious armor and packing any kind of heat unless it is easily concealable, don't be doing any suspicious behavior, and don't cause any trouble ... look like you belong there. Most importantly do not run SILENT!!!! Number one give away in a situation like that is to stand out in a crowd of nice legal wage slaves by hiding something you would normally leave wide open. Even if it just a simple burner commlink ... make sure you have a reliable fake SIN on it and run it public!
Also good advice / a petard to hoist my players upon (delete as appropriate) :)

*Random Matrix Perception* 2 Concealed weapons, Firearms and Concealed Carry license, idgaf
Eh, doesn't work as soon as you have any illegal devices in there, like cyberdecks, say. Plus at this point you need to start thinking about fake SIN and licence ratings, which is a lot of dice / maths for a "walking past a cop in the street" scenario. I favour a lighter-weight approach, saving the "now they're checking your SIN and stuff" for a little further down the escalation path.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Xenon on <09-07-19/0620:05>
PC1 is walking down main street with a trenchcoat and hidden on him are 5 grenades, 1 ingram and an ares predator. His comlink is rating 6. Every WIRELESS devices is turned on. Grenades and ingram are linked to his comlink PAN.
So what does Gruff the cop sees when he looks at PC1?
In SR5 Gruff the cop would see PC1's PAN Icon and his more dangerous icons such as Grenades and the Ingram would stick out as Icons on their own, unless PC1 is trying to hide them (by running them silent) in which case Gruff the cop will not see them at all and he would just see PC1's PAN Icon.

Gruff the cop would also automatically see the fake SIN and fake licenses that PC1 choose to not protect. If Gruff the cop use his SIN verification software on the system identification number he would learn 4 things about PC1.
(but there are no photos etc)

If PC1's commlink is also running silent then Gruff the cop would not even see PC1's PAN Icon (nor his fake SIN) and that would probably make him suspicious enough to start looking for it....

If Gruff the cop for some reason decide to filter out his AR vision to only show silent running icons then he can do that. Silent running icons are not really very hidden at all. To get a 'list' of all silent running icons in the vicinity is actually as obvious as noticing a neon sign or a running crowd for normal perception (it only require a single hit on a Simple Matrix Perception Test which is a Complex Action that is resolved with Computer + Intuition [Data Processing]).

Gruff the cop is now 'aware' of all silent icons in the vicinity. Since he in this case don't know what he is specifically looking for he get to spot them one by one at random. This is resolved with an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test (when it comes to PC1's devices he doesn't have a Sleaze rating so he will just defend against the test by rolling Logic as a dice pool of its own, since firewall is not part of the equation PC1 also doesn't really benefit from having a high rated commlink in this case).

If Gruff the cop for some reason would already be 'aware' of any of PC1's hidden devices (perhaps PC1 is holding one of the wireless enabled silent running grenades in his hand or perhaps PC1's commlink is running silent and Gruff the cop want to spot his PAN Icon) then Gruff the cop would already be 'aware' that the Icon is out there and could just take an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test to spot it directly.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-07-19/1316:25>
That's... A heck of a lot. Does your table actually do all that every time the PCs walk past a cop on the street?
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: BeCareful on <09-07-19/1927:35>
It's more a list of hypothetical possibilities. There's an unintended one missing: if Gruff doesn't have AR on, he'll look at PC1 and see someone in a trenchcoat, possibly with something bulky stuck beneath it.

Or, if the guns had a use of the Wrapper program to look to all of AR as if they're a set of marital aids, (with matching intimacy enhancer for a concealed quick-draw holster) then hopefully nobody's going to bother looking any closer.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Xenon on <09-08-19/0403:41>
It's more a list of hypothetical possibilities.
This :)

If PC1 is running his dangerous icons in silent mode (typical case) or even wireless disabled then all Gruff the cop sees is the PAN Icon (and the fake SIN) of PC1. All is well. Really no reason to investigate any further. You are blending in.

There are a few basic situations you would want to avoid if you wish to not attract unwanted attention;


There's an unintended one missing: if Gruff doesn't have AR on, he'll look at PC1 and see someone in a trenchcoat, possibly with something bulky stuck beneath it.
Yes, of course. I missed that one. Thank you.

There is one more beyond that one as well;
PC1 may be running everything wireless disabled. In that case Gruff the cop will not see the PAN Icon of PC1 which might raise suspicion, but in this case no matter how much he look he will not be able to spot the icons of PC1's devices.


Or, if the guns had a use of the Wrapper program to look to all of AR as if they're a set of marital aids, (with matching intimacy enhancer for a concealed quick-draw holster) then hopefully nobody's going to bother looking any closer.
Note that you need a device capable of running a cyberprogram (such as a cyberdeck) if you wish to run Wrapper.

Also, if I wish to spot the Icon of your wielded smartgun then I would spot the Icon of your smartgun even if it's Matrix Icon currently look like a medkit.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: BeCareful on <09-08-19/1333:09>
Yep, that's why "hopefully nobody's going to bother to look any closer." Once someone actually makes that Matrix Perception test and notices that your "Medkit" actually isn't one, then that's some probable cause right there. I figure using it to disguise your cyberdeck as something unobtrusive means nobody will bother with more than a cursory glance, and you can have it on and not silent. (Unless you're going somewhere where you'll get more than that cursory glance, in which case it'd be better to put it in silent or off completely)
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Xenon on <09-08-19/1402:34>
Since cyberdecks are not illegal anymore it might be better to just have your fake cyberdeck license in order rather than running silent or use wrapper...

...alternative temporarily form your PAN around your commlink while your internal cyberdeck (or your living persona in case of technomancer) is temporarily turned off. And then you reboot your commlink as you move your matrix persona over to your cyberdeck (or your living persona) later when you actually need it.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-08-19/1430:45>
Since cyberdecks are not illegal anymore it might be better to just have your fake cyberdeck license in order rather than running silent or use wrapper...
When decks where illegal, what did spiders use?

Quote
...alternative temporarily form your PAN around your commlink while your internal cyberdeck (or your living persona in case of technomancer) is temporarily turned off. And then you reboot your commlink as you move your matrix persona over to your cyberdeck (or your living persona) later when you actually need it.
Why canít you carry a burner commlink, powered up, broadcasting a fake SIN but not in AR - and also a cyberdeck set to running silent? With the latter being the PAN that contains your illegal stuff. Obviously the rules donít support this, but itís not obvious why you canít.

Edit - formatting
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: CanRay on <09-08-19/1456:37>
Since cyberdecks are not illegal anymore it might be better to just have your fake cyberdeck license in order rather than running silent or use wrapper...
When decks where illegal, what did spiders use?
Corporate/Security Company Licensed Cyberdecks that never left the property.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-08-19/1613:29>
Corporate/Security Company Licensed Cyberdecks that never left the property.
So how did they get there - are they made on site? On every site? Does each mega make their own? Why do megas like Sony even make cyberdecks? Why do they have prices of they can't be sold?

(I suspect the answer is "they're 'forbidden' in game terms but they can legally exist under some form of licencing that is beyond the usual terms for 'licenced' items.")
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: FastJack on <09-08-19/1751:28>
Corporate/Security Company Licensed Cyberdecks that never left the property.
So how did they get there - are they made on site? On every site? Does each mega make their own? Why do megas like Sony even make cyberdecks? Why do they have prices of they can't be sold?

(I suspect the answer is "they're 'forbidden' in game terms but they can legally exist under some form of licencing that is beyond the usual terms for 'licenced' items.")
Look up the Company Store (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store). Ever since the olden times, companies would make the equipment for their employees, then make the employees have to purchase the equipment required to do their jobs. This started back in mining towns.

Sony makes the decks for their employees to use, but make sure their employees have to purchase the deck. It's legal for the employees to purchase them, but anyone outside the company is forbidden to have them.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-09-19/1125:19>
Since cyberdecks are not illegal anymore it might be better to just have your fake cyberdeck license in order rather than running silent or use wrapper...
When decks where illegal, what did spiders use?

Also remember that the rules are written to represent the Sixth World from a shadowrunning perspective.  Drek that's so Illegal you can't even get a FAKE license isn't necessarily that way for certain NPCs.  Remember: what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.  It's how it is chummer, suck it up.


Also: The Wrapper cyberprogram didn't make it into the 6we CRB.  It may be re-introduced in the Decker book, but for now there's no way to make an icon look like a different type of icon.

Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Xenon on <09-09-19/1312:29>
Also remember that the rules are written to represent the Sixth World from a shadowrunning perspective.  Drek that's so Illegal you can't even get a FAKE license isn't necessarily that way for certain NPCs.
Precisely. Military hardware were also Forbidden for a Shadowrunner, but of course the military were still allowed to use them...
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-09-19/1400:15>
Quote
items that are illegal for private ownership in most places, which means they are only allowed in the possession of security, megacorporate, or government entities.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-09-19/1542:56>
Drek that's so Illegal you can't even get a FAKE license isn't necessarily that way for certain NPCs.  Remember: what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.  It's how it is chummer, suck it up.
Sure. I mean, I said as much myself, two posts above you.
(I suspect the answer is "they're 'forbidden' in game terms but they can legally exist under some form of licencing that is beyond the usual terms for 'licenced' items.")
Another equally valid explanation would be that the corps make decks that are perfectly functional and legal, but locked down in some way that makes them useless to deckers (eg broadcast to GOD constantly); before deckers get them they are illicitly modded to remove this restriction and this renders them illegal.

This is all a very tiny point, but for me it's a small example of a broader issue I have struggled with with the Matrix rules in modern Shadowrun. I don't understand how it works, in-world, well enough to reason about it; and when I have to make a rules call on the fly, I don't feel like I have a grasp on it well enough to invent something without worrying it's inconsistent with something else. For, say, shooting someone, or driving a car, I have real-world experience I can fall back on. But SR's Matrix isn't like anything in the real world, so I can't do that.

I don't know how many citizens walk around in AR, and I don't know how that number changes across different parts of the city. I don't know if someone with AR on is seeing 100%, 50% or 10% of active AROs. I don't know how they choose which AROs they see. I don't know why Shadowrunners can't seem to carry a second dummy commlink with just a fake SIN to hide the real one that's running silent, as that appears to be the safest infosec against casual inspection. I don't know if a commlink is "online" when it's not actively running someone's persona. Can it still receive calls?

I don't know what a Host is. Kill Code says most hosts are Foundation hosts, which are "grown" and that that is a perilous and expensive process; and Foundation hosts can be accessed from anywhere on the Matrix, via an unexplained mechanism. But the CRB says that your local Stuffer Shack has a Host, and that Host is down at "ground level", located at the same place in the Matrix as it is in the real world. Is that a Foundation Host? Why does Stuffer Shack use an expensive Foundation Host for every outlet? If it's not a Foundation host, how are non-Foundation hosts as rare as Kill Code says they are?

I don't know the granularity of Hosts. I don't know if a small corporate facility would have its own, or have multiple hosts, or share one big Host with nearby premises.

I don't know what it's like to use P2.1 in Shadowrun. In AR, is it just a window you overlay over your vision? Do most people use AR or VR? In VR, do I fly up to and enter a P2.1 Host, or is it a Horizon mega-host with a P2.1 section inside it? Do wageslaves have an AR window on P2.1 open while working, or is their comms monitored to prohibit that? If I'm jacked into my corp network in VR, can I overlay an AR window with my P2.1 feed in onto my sensorium? Can I use P2.1 on my commlink's screen, not in AR or VR? Why would anyone do that?

I don't know if normal corp workers typically work in AR or VR, and therefore what an office looks like. Does it have desks and water coolers? Or do people spend 90% of the day jacked in, in which case it just needs couches? How do I describe it to my runners when they break in? What do they see in the middle of the workday -- can they just sneak through a load of jacked-in quiescent bodies?

I don't understand what a Google search is in the Matrix. There are Hosts and the Hosts contain files that contain data, some of which are public. How do I look something up? Do I go to a public library Host? Do I go to a sort of meta-indexer Host that searches information on other Hosts? Do I write a bot that goes off to loads of Hosts for me and searches each in turn? How do I describe what happens when my players say "look this guy up online and see what we can find"?

I could go on but you get the idea. Any one of these is fairly easily resolved one way or another; probably some of them aren't really ambiguous and I've missed something. But taken in aggregate, I find they make understanding how the Matrix actually works, for its users, in SR5e very slippery and nebulous. And that means I have no mental framework to slot the rules into, which in turn makes the mechanics side of things feel awkward and arbitrary.

Maybe it's just me. I doubt it, though.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: mcv on <09-09-19/1642:44>
Is it actually possible for random items like weapons to run silent? My impression from the 5e rules is that you need a Sleaze attribute for that, which would mean only cyber decks can do it. Do I have that wrong?

In general, everything having wifi seems like a rather large liability, particularly for shadowrunners.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-09-19/1651:58>
In 5e you could run silent but without Sleaze your dicepool would be crap, iirc.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-09-19/1916:19>
Yeah, in both editions Sleaze is one of the attributes you roll to remain hidden when you're running silent.

With 0 Sleaze (or in 5e, - Sleaze) you'll likely fail the opposed roll by tying one hand behind your back.  But still, unless/until someone DOES try to spot silent running icons, your icons aren't immediately obvious.  So it's not pointless to try to run silent.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: Hobbes on <09-10-19/1807:50>
Why canít you carry a burner commlink, powered up, broadcasting a fake SIN but not in AR - and also a cyberdeck set to running silent? With the latter being the PAN that contains your illegal stuff. Obviously the rules donít support this, but itís not obvious why you canít.

Edit - formatting

You can only have one Persona formed at a time would be the limitation.  You could have devices not in your PAN running silent or just wireless off. 

I suppose you could hack your own unattended PAN or some similar shenanigans to have access to those devices.

Or just have your naughty stuff wireless off until you need it.  Turn it on for the 30 seconds you need to do stuff with it, then turn it back off.  Works for most things.
Title: Re: what is visible in AR?
Post by: penllawen on <09-12-19/0616:44>
Why canít you carry a burner commlink, powered up, broadcasting a fake SIN but not in AR - and also a cyberdeck set to running silent? With the latter being the PAN that contains your illegal stuff. Obviously the rules donít support this, but itís not obvious why you canít.
You can only have one Persona formed at a time would be the limitation. 
Can a commlink that isn't running a persona not broadcast a SIN? Does that mean if you're not walking around with trodes or a datajack, to keep the persona going, you can't broadcast a SIN? Or can you form a persona with DNI?