Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0754:54>

Title: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0754:54>
I had a pass at a character using/exploiting (delete as appropriate to your taste) the Anticipation mechanism: Anticipatory Alan (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQTz_EzPSmFt43L7lep3yVhE6M4V6GLmn9CGo46X6FBBlwJl4PnwEvZ6_Md7kB2HDt4c3tIjKnwMSw2/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true).

If my maths is right, for Alan, the first round of any combat looks like:


That's an even 100 dice hitting the table during Alan's first turn.

Kudos to Lormyr for posting Collateral's char sheet; I borrowed numerous ideas from there.

Edit - kudos also to Jimmy_Pvish who inspired me to do this with this post:
I'm surprise that no-one in your group choose to go "Anticipation of Doom" build.
When I read that option, I convince myself that this is THE option for non-mage combat build.

Edit - I also made a decker using some of the same techniques (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30005.msg524414#msg524414), which was pretty fun.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0828:46>
Anticipatory Alan vs 5x DocWagon HTR Officers (professional rating 6). All dice rolls replaced by buying hits.

Alan rolls init: average of 27
DocWagon HTR rolls init: average of 20 (round up)

Alan goes first.

1 attack against 1 DocWagon HTR:
* AR (assuming Short range): 14, Defence Rating = 14; no Edge
* Attack test: 20 dice = 5 hits
* Defence test: 11 dice = 3 hits
* Net damage = 8P
* Soaking 8P DV w/ 4 dice = 7P damage (out of 10 boxes)
Repeat this 4x times.

1 final BF attack against last HTR:
* AR (assuming Short range): 12, Defence Rating = 14; no Edge
* Attack test: 20 dice = 5 hits
* Defence test: 11 dice = 3 hits
* Net damage = 10P
* Soaking 10P DV w/ 4 dice = 9P damage

Each opponent has now taken more net hits than their Professional rating, so HTRs each have to roll Composure test; 8 dice is 2 net hits. Unclear if that means if they bolt or not, no threshold is given for the test. Any that stay and fight are on -2 dice to all actions.

Assume they all stay.

5x grunts fire at Alan with Ares Alpha ARs in BF mode using the grunt rules:

* AR: 10, -4 for BF, +5 for grunt = 11; Defence Rating = 12; no Edge
* Attack test: 11, +2 dice for 5 grunts, -2 dice for injury = 11 dice = 2 hits
* Defence test: 13 dice = 3 hits
* Miss

From here, Alan can easily kill at least 2 HTR officers on his next turn. If he wants to push the schedule, he can gamble on killing 3 by doing a second Multiple Attack to split his 20 dice between two targets, and he has 1 point of remaining Edge to help with that.

Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/0831:22>
Anticipate requires the Multiple Attacks option. 

With a Single weapon you need to use Burst Fire (BF) mode:
p. 109
"...or make a wide burst and
split your dice pool between two targets and count
each as a SA-mode shot."

SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.

If you're dual wielding, (Off Hand Attacks p. 110), you can use the Multiple Attacks option and use SS, SA or a Narrow Burst on 2 Targets, SA and BF mode would increase DV.  Or use Dual Wide Bursts on BF mode to hit 4 Targets at Base DV.

FA mode does not use the Multiple Attacks action so you shouldn't be able to use Anticipate with it.  But someone could argue Dual Wielding FA weapons would use the Multiple Attack action so you could use the Anticipate Edge Action and make a Base DV attack vs. p. 109 ".... any
valid targets in range."  or even try to argue stacking multiple attacks on the same target.  These are absolutely arguments you could make, how far you get with them is on the GM   ;D


Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0838:45>
Or use Dual Wide Bursts on BF mode to hit 4 Targets at Base DV.
Yes, that's what Alan does for his 4x attacks under Anticipation. Weapon base damage is 4P, plus 1P for exploding ammo, plus 1P for an effective SA attack per target, plus 2P from his net hits on the attack test.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0847:38>
SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.
No. SS mode is base weapon damage. SA mode is +1 DV, -2 AR (see page 109.) Alan's SMG's gas-vent system make that +1 DV with no change to AR.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/0911:03>
You should also tack on Call a Shot Minor Action for -4 Dice, +2 DV.

4 Base, +1 SA, +1 Explosive, +2 DV Called Shot, plus net hits for 2 Minors and a Major.  Presuming another Major action (Wired 4 or similar) Burst Fire at two Targets to finish off whoever you rolled bad on.  Good rolls should actually drop some on the opening Anticipate action, Wide Burst for whoever is left.

Should be able to drop 3 or 4 in an opening round pretty regularly if this is what you're building to. 

Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/0913:53>
SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.
No. SS mode is base weapon damage. SA mode is +1 DV, -2 AR (see page 109.) Alan's SMG's gas-vent system make that +1 DV with no change to AR.

Correct on the DV.  Little early for this many Acronyms. 
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0916:16>
You should also tack on Call a Shot Minor Action for -4 Dice, +2 DV.
Gooooood call, except:

Quote
2 Minors and a Major.  Presuming another Major action
I know it's being debated but current RAW is "no more than 5 Minor actions", right? So Alan is 1 Minor short to pull this off.

Quote
Should be able to drop 3 or 4 in an opening round pretty regularly if this is what you're building to.
I mean, I'm just fooling around, really; a good way to explore a system is to poke its extremes, I think. I'd imagine any sensible GM presented with this would either scream NOOOO in my face or find a dozen ways to drop anvils on poor Alan's head.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/0917:31>
Correct on the DV.  Little early for this many Acronyms.
No worries  ;) SA not doing the base weapon stats is a bit jarring coming from SR5, and easy to forget (I had to write it down in my crib notes or I'd have gotten it wrong somewhere I'm sure.)

Plus it's 2pm here so I got that going for me.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-31-19/1000:53>
This is one of the reasons why I donít like the edge system. I actually donít mind you shooting to 4 or 5 people in your turn. But that should be a function of you investing in ware not having 4 edge. As while you are street sam anticipatory Alan. Street slow as a slug decker with 4 edge can do the same thing just not with the 2nd major to finish off some poor idiot.

Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/1017:48>
No more than 5 Minor Actions at the start of your turn.  Wired 4 (or whatever) puts you at 1 Major 6 Minor, presumably you'd be allowed to convert 4 Minor to a Major "Before" your turn, otherwise Return on Initiative investment (Minor actions anyway) would be capped at one level lower than what most of them go up to.  2 Major, 2 Minor should be able to pull it off. 

And if your GM says "No", just pull out Indirect Iggy.  Just a guy.  In normal clothes.  Totally just standing there.  With Focused Concentration 3 sustaining 2 Increase Attributes and Increased Reflexes with 3 net hits.  Toss an Amped up Blast Spell (Base Drain 4, Amp up Damage, Increase Radius by 4, total Drain 8, Base Damage to target 4 plus Net Hits).  Then do it again with your second Major Action.  And stand there and see if anyone makes the Perception Threshold 6 test to notice you cast two spells.   "Windy today ain't it fellas?"  Mage will likely take 4 ish stun damage.  Magic 6, Spellcasting (Combat) 6, so 14 Dice vs Reaction plus Willpower to everything in a 6 Meter Radius.  If the Mage is Hermetic they'll have picked up their 2 Edge for the turn with Analytical Mind.

The Mages damage potential will increase more than the Samurai once play starts.  Bond a Foci for 4 more dice with Combat Spells, potentially increase Magic to 7 down the road for another +1 DV.  The Mage and the Samurai can both pick up one more dice on the Attack with Expertise.  Also possible to pick up another Dice initially with Aptitude (Skill) Quality. 

Doing a Drekton of damage to multiple targets at the top of the round is a pretty minor investment for a mage.  To the point where it's just arguably a just side effect of normal optimization.  A Samurai has to build their entire character around it, and it's pretty much their bit. 

Edit: Oh, yeah and the Mage can just do it again next turn.  Although you'll really need a nap if you keep Amping up the damage.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-31-19/1038:30>
Well in the case of blast as a indirect combat spell I’d say it’s instantly visible as some energy ball flew from you to blow crap up. You might not see the spell cast but you see the spell.

I assume that’s getting changed. Spell casting harder to spot then a needle in a haystack, im guessing wasn’t the plan.

Still yes 2 blasts.


As an aside. I wish they’d rewrite multiple attack to multiple action let it include things like you are out of minors but still want to move and shoot so you 1/2 you shoot pool and move.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/1202:35>
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.

If that is the case switch to Stunball or Manaball and lower the base damage but no Soak and change the opposed test to Intuition + Willpower.  The Stunball/Manaball has the added benefit of minimal collateral damage.  Any Indirect AoE spell is going to wreck stuff and make noise, folks nearby will know something just happened.  Manaball/Stunball will just drop the inconvenient fleshy bits with a minimum of fuss and bother. 

Or waive your hands in the air like you just don't care and Blast them into next week anyway because you're probably going to drop them all.  Especially if your team is well prepared and has both an Alpha Strike Samurai and a Mop up Mage.

I mean its a team game, no reason not to have two or three of these on every Shadowrun team. 
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-31-19/1210:52>
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.

I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.

You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.

Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/1214:49>
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.
I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.
I'm with you on this. Indirect magic spells are surely hella obvious.

Quote
You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.
Wait, what about...

Quote
Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
...yes, this. What about this?

I'd silently assumed it was only the latter - the person is noticing spellcasting, the action, not noticing active magic. But I'd given it zero thought and now I am I'm not at all sure. I assume this is a well-worn topic around these parts?
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Hobbes on <08-31-19/1222:41>
Previous editions specify that Indirect Spells are thrown/fired/projected from a Mage on the physical plane and are obvious.  I didn't see that stated in any likely spots in 6th edition.

Could be change blindness.  Could be intentional.  Could be hidden somewhere and I missed it.  FWIW I suspect its either change blindness or I missed it. 

Not that it changes much, 2 Stunballs per turn will clean up a lot of chaff.  Teams with a second mage or some other Alpha Strike build will simply wipe a bunch of tokens off the map at the start of combat.  I personally think that's fine, if an NPC is important give them a name and chance.  I have little sympathy for Red chip #2, it's purpose is to make the PCs look good.  YMMV. 

And... totally derailed.  Sorry Penllawen.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-31-19/1224:30>
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.
I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.
I'm with you on this. Indirect magic spells are surely hella obvious.

Quote
You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.
Wait, what about...

Quote
Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
...yes, this. What about this?

I'd silently assumed it was only the latter - the person is noticing spellcasting, the action, not noticing active magic. But I'd given it zero thought and now I am I'm not at all sure. I assume this is a well-worn topic around these parts?

There's a thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27292.0) discussing this very thing for the 5e context.  Looks like the conundrum is essentially the same in 6we, although what's new is at this point the previous edition left it ambiguous, rather than there being a firm precedent to continue.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/1227:26>
And... totally derailed.  Sorry Penllawen.
Hah, no worries, I think it's a perfectly croumulant discussion.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: tequila on <08-31-19/1318:39>
Thanks for posting this penllawen! Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/1425:10>
Thanks for posting this penllawen! Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
No worries! If you take a pass at it, Iíd like to see what you come up with. Iím sure thereís ways to improve.

Trying to cram Wired Reflexes IV in is interesting, for example, and could be compelling if the rules change around how many actions it gives you. Iíd like to see Alan get more ways to rebuild Edge, too, but I couldnít find any; perhaps a super-high-AR secondary weapon?
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/1430:44>
No more than 5 Minor Actions at the start of your turn.  Wired 4 (or whatever) puts you at 1 Major 6 Minor, presumably you'd be allowed to convert 4 Minor to a Major "Before" your turn...
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/81e040d399ef8657990958bf4e43c790/tumblr_n4kd45xxkb1tohkrvo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Finstersang on <08-31-19/1522:03>
Iīve heard some rumors that behind the veil of NDA, thereīs already some talk about Anticipate. My guess would be that there will be some kind of target limit (like 2 or 3), a word on the interaction (or non-interaction) with FA-Attacks, and maybe a word on the question if BF multiattacks and dual-wielding Multiattacks can be combined in the first place.

Apart from that: I find it bit bipolar how everyone was like "Being a Sammie isnīt worth it anymore!" and "Pink Mohawk is dead!" and then penllawen comes up with this prime pink-mohawk example of a dedicated dual-wield streetsam with two readied SMGs laying waste to group of grunts[1] by using Anticipation to its fullest potential, and suddenly, thatīs the new proof that SR6 suxxx omg. Iīve seen crazier things than this. At least Alan is having fun ::)

[1]Who all happen to stand around at just the right spot, with everyone rolling averages and, most importantly, no one using Edge or Defense Actions to defend themselfes. As long as they are not surprised, everyone in this team could use 1 Minor to Dodge (Athletics 4) and another Minor to Hit the dirt (another +2) if thatīs not enough.

This is one of the reasons why I donít like the edge system. I actually donít mind you shooting to 4 or 5 people in your turn. But that should be a function of you investing in ware not having 4 edge. As while you are street sam anticipatory Alan. Street slow as a slug decker with 4 edge can do the same thing just not with the 2nd major to finish off some poor idiot.

Provided that said decker has two readied SMGs and a dice pool similar to that of a dedicated Streetsam. Without the latter, he will deal less damage and have a higher chance to miss some of those targets entirely, especially if they play their cards right and have some actions and Edge left for themselfes. And then you just stand there, with two smoking SMGs in your hands, (likely) without cover, 4 less Edge and 1-0 minor actions left. Not the smartest move.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <08-31-19/1554:10>
Iīve heard some rumors that behind the veil of NDA, thereīs already some talk about Anticipate. My guess would be that there will be some kind of target limit (like 2 or 3), a word on the interaction (or non-interaction) with FA-Attacks, and maybe a word on the question if BF multiattacks and dual-wielding Multiattacks can be combined in the first place.
Having paged back and forth many times to get my head around it, I certainly think the whole fire modes / multiple attacks / Anticipate / dual wielding are would benefit from a much clearer writeup that also makes the interaction between these rules explicit instead of implicit. And I donít think thereíll be any GMs crying into their soyweisser if Anticipate gets nerfed fairly seriously in some way. Poor old Alanís one-trick pony is a bit too tricksy.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-31-19/1614:47>

Provided that said decker has two readied SMGs and a dice pool similar to that of a dedicated Streetsam. Without the latter, he will deal less damage and have a higher chance to miss some of those targets entirely, especially if they play their cards right and have some actions and Edge left for themselfes. And then you just stand there, with two smoking SMGs in your hands, (likely) without cover, 4 less Edge and 1-0 minor actions left. Not the smartest move.

Yeah but that's just one skill and a good agility and I guess ambidexterity if you really want this, edge as well but that is something valuable to deckers on its own not just for this build.  Might not match the SAM but they can get damn close as they probably wont have a 10 agility.(though maybe I expect resources will be high for deckers like SAMS.)

And so yeah this does not seem to be a look Sammies are good idea, more a look edge which everyone has is good post. Since I suspect using minors will come up here and there, I don't expect too many two majors happening so attacking multiple times will more be through this move than having a second major. Maybe people will go all into offense, but don't be surprised when your GM then has people focus fire you since you used up all your minors on offense leaving nothing for defense.  Also I feel the complaint was this system was only pink mohawk not could not be. Bikini bandits and all.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Xenon on <08-31-19/1842:07>
Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
Note that his listed Praetor Attack Ratings are too high, Laser sight and Smartgun system does not stack (he also don't seem to have a smartlink).

You should also note that this is not really a fully functional character. It is mostly a one-trick-pony character created just to prove the point that anticipation might be useful when the situation is right.

For example Alan don't have any fake SIN (which mean he can't use public transportation). Adding on top of that he don't even have a single point in piloting and he don't own any transportation. So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet?? Police are bound to stop him a few times before he reach his destination. But then he also don't have any social skills at all and charisma of 1 (which mean he can't even default when telling a lie). Alan also don't have any fake licences for his weapon arsenal. Alan also don't have any less than lethal options, no points at all in close combat, no silent ways of neutralizing opponents (no silencers and only explosive ammo) and no attack options at all at distances beyond medium range (only shotguns and SMGs).

A key ingredient in this build is the ambidextrous quality. Without it he would have to split the dice pool when making attacks with off-hand (even if using anticipation).
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/0250:00>
Note that his listed Praetor Attack Ratings are too high, Laser sight and Smartgun system does not stack (he also don't seem to have a smartlink).
My mistake, I missed both those things. He has leftover money and essence to get the smartgun link.

Quote
You should also note that this is not really a fully functional character. It is mostly a one-trick-pony character created just to prove the point that anticipation might be useful when the situation is right.
When is the situation not right to bust out 4x attacks in a turn?

Quote
For example Alan don't have any fake SIN (which mean he can't use public transportation). Adding on top of that he don't even have a single point in piloting and he don't own any transportation. So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet?? Police are bound to stop him a few times before he reach his destination. But then he also don't have any social skills at all and charisma of 1 (which mean he can't even default when telling a lie). Alan also don't have any fake licences for his weapon arsenal. Alan also don't have any less than lethal options, no points at all in close combat, no silent ways of neutralizing opponents (no silencers and only explosive ammo) and no attack options at all at distances beyond medium range (only shotguns and SMGs).
Alan has 35,000 nuyen and 20 karma left to finish chargen with, which is enough to fix these issues; I didn't think I needed to create a laundry list of normal runner gear on his char sheet and account for every nuyen to evaluate his combat effectiveness. And I thought most people would take it as read that he'd buy that stuff if he was a real character. Obviously he should have fake SINs and licences, some different weapons, some S'n'S ammo, a lifestyle, etc etc. He also needs some of SR6's amazingly powerful grenades of course -- no 2080 street sam is fully dressed without them!

And sure, his skill list is a bit focused. But thanks to SR6's much wider skills, he's not as terrible as he looks at first glance. Let's convert his skills back to SR5 for a moment; he has the equivalent of

Longarms, Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns - all at dice pool 18
Automatics at dice pool 20
Archery, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming, Throwing Weapons - all at dice pool 15
Disguise, Palming - all at dice pool 17
Sneaking at dice pool 19
Perception at 10 (visual at 12)

That's not bad!

If you really feel he needs some social skills (and I don't disagree), it wouldn't hurt to drop a rank off Perception and a few off Sneaking, drop the Impaired Attribute (Cha) to 2 levels, drop a few ranks in Built Tough to balance the quality karma, drop Wil and Int a point each, put Cha up to 3, and take a few ranks in Con. He'd still have a tiny dice pool and have to Edge any important Con rolls but he could do it. Hell, if you end up losing a few ranks off the gun skills to put Con up some more, it still wouldn't matter much I don't think. "Oh no I only put 80 dice down instead of 100 when using Anticipate," said no combat monster ever.

Quote
A key ingredient in this build is the ambidextrous quality. Without it he would have to split the dice pool when making attacks with off-hand (even if using anticipation).
Indeed. At 4 karma points, I think it's a steal that every character should have, because any character that can point a gun can get some utility out of Anticipate.
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1250:26>
So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet??
This got me thinking...

Alan's DR is: 7 points of body, +1 from his bone lacing, +4 from his armour jacket, +1 from his helmet for a total of 13. So if he leaves the helmet at home, that will only matter if he's shot at with a gun with an Attack Rating of exactly 16. (Any more, the attacker would gain Edge regardless; any less, Alan denies the attacker any Edge without the helmet.)

Here's all the ways I could find to make AR 16 with the core rulebook:


(The above list assumes that RAI is that SA guns can choose to fire in SS. If not, the AR penalty for firing in SA mode messes up the maths, most of these guns don't list SS as a fire mode. If we strictly abide by RAW, then the list gets a lot shorter.)

I might have missed a few combinations when I was paging back and forth but I think I got most of them. This list isn't nothing, but it is a very specific list of particular guns, mods, and ranges. Outside of these exact combinations, the helmet does nothing for Alan. So on balance, I think Alan can risk leaving the helmet at home, and in return be less conspicuous.

(This, I think, is exactly the kind of thing people are talking about when they say they don't like how armour feels underpowered in SR6.)

Edit - minor typos[/list]
Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-19/1306:06>
    So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet??
    This got me thinking...

    Alan's DR is: 7 points of body, +1 from his bone lacing, +4 from his armour jacket, +1 from his helmet for a total of 13. So if he leaves the helmet at home, that will only matter if he's shot at with a gun with an Attack Rating of exactly 16. (Any more, the attacker would gain Edge regardless; any less, Alan denies the attacker any Edge without the helmet.)

    Here's all the ways I could find to make AR 16 with the core rulebook:

    • Barret Model 121 anti-materiel rifle, SS, at Far range (but without using a smartgun system, APDS ammo, or bipod)
    • Ares Alpha, Stoner-Ares M202, or RPK HMG at Near range, SS, with APDS ammo, a bipod, and a smartgun system
    • FN-HAR, Remington 900, or Ruger 101 as above but at Medium range
    • Ares Desert Strike, as above but at all ranges except Close
    • Walther Palm Pistol, at Close range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • FN P93 Praetor or PJSS Model 55 at Near range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • Ranger Arms SM-5, at Extreme range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • RPK HMG, at Far range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod

    (The above list assumes that RAI is that SA guns can choose to fire in SS. If not, the AR penalty for firing in SA mode messes up the maths, most of these guns don't list SS as a fire mode. If we strictly abide by RAW, then the list gets a lot shorter.)

    I might have missed a few combinations when I was paging back and forth but I think I got most of them. This list isn't nothing, but it is a very specific list of particular guns, mods, and ranges. Outside of these exact combinations, the helmet does nothing for Alan. So on balance, I think Alan can risk leaving the helmet at home, and being less conspicuous.

    (This, I think, is exactly the kind of thing people are talking about when they say they don't like how armour feels underpowered in SR6.)[/list]

    On the other hand, you could look at the helmet's +1 DR as having haved 35 karma that wasn't necessary to go from 6 to 7 Body.

    Edit: That's actually a potential 47 karma if he's Human.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1308:28>
    a) Alanís body is 5(7), so itís 25 points of karma if you want to look at it this way.

    b) Thatís only true if you ignore that the Body stat has value beyond its contribution to the Defence Rating, not least of which is the soak roll.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-19/1311:15>
    And of course it also matters if he got there via karma or attribute points.

    Either way, the +1 DR means a whole lot more than "the list of exactly AR16 attacks is short".
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1322:28>
    Either way, the +1 DR means a whole lot more than "the list of exactly AR16 attacks is short".
    ...like what? Genuine question, I canít see what youíre getting at.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-19/1335:26>
    Either way, the +1 DR means a whole lot more than "the list of exactly AR16 attacks is short".
    ...like what? Genuine question, I canít see what youíre getting at.

    Ok, going back to what I was responding to... you said:
    This got me thinking...

    Alan's DR is: 7 points of body, +1 from his bone lacing, +4 from his armour jacket, +1 from his helmet for a total of 13. So if he leaves the helmet at home, that will only matter if he's shot at with a gun with an Attack Rating of exactly 16. (Any more, the attacker would gain Edge regardless; any less, Alan denies the attacker any Edge without the helmet.)
    ous.

    Which was then followed by examples of how short and contrived the examples are that would hit AR 16 exactly, summed up by the following thought:

    Quote
    (This, I think, is exactly the kind of thing people are talking about when they say they don't like how armour feels underpowered in SR6.)[/list]

    In other words: 7+1+4+1 has little advantage over 7+1+4, and that's an example of why people think armor feels underpowered.

    To which I rebutted:

    ok, but that last +1 means you could have instead gone 6+1+4+1. That helmet giving you the final +1 means you don't have to spend whatever costs it took to go from 6 to 7.  And those costs can be steep, compared to the cost of buying a helmet.  Ergo, the helmet is actually giving quite a strong effect.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1342:49>
    ok, but that last +1 means you could have instead gone 6+1+4+1. That helmet giving you the final +1 means you don't have to spend whatever costs it took to go from 6 to 7.  And those costs can be steep, compared to the cost of buying a helmet.  Ergo, the helmet is actually giving quite a strong effect.
    Ok, I understand that bit. What Iím struggling with: youíre suggesting (if I follow you) there are two scenarios:

    1) Alan wears a helmet, reduces his Body by 1, has the same DR, now has a spare Attribute point or karma to spend elsewhere
    2) Alan skips the helmet, now he has to have Body 5(7) to hit the same DR, now he doesnít have an Attribute point to spend

    And therefore we can, in some sense, suggest the helmet is worth one Attribute point. Which is super valuable. Is that what youíre saying?

    Edit - formatting.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-19/1345:22>
    ...
    And therefore we can, in some sense, suggest the helmet is worth one Attribute point. Which is super valuable. Is that what youíre saying?

    Yes. 1 DR from a point of Body Attribute is mechanically identical to 1 DR from a helmet.  But not only is +1 DR cheaper from a helmet than from adding a point of body, it's available even after you max out body.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1403:59>
    Gotcha. But...
    Yes. 1 DR from a point of Body Attribute is mechanically identical to 1 DR from a helmet. 
    That's true as far as DR goes, but aren't you ignoring the other things Body does, though? To go back to this:

    1) Alan wears a helmet, reduces his Body by 1, has the same DR, now has a spare Attribute point or karma to spend elsewhere
    2) Alan skips the helmet, now he has to have Body 5(7) to hit the same DR, now he doesnít have an Attribute point to spend
    Compared to (2), in scenario (1) Alan has:

    ...and so on.

    A helmet only contributes to DR. A point of Body contributes to many things, including DR. I don't think they're comparable at all, and I don't think the idea that "Alan can wear his helmet, save a point on his Body, and come out ahead" is true.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1503:06>
    You should also note that this is not really a fully functional character. It is mostly a one-trick-pony character created just to prove the point that anticipation might be useful when the situation is right.
    I had the same thought, so I present: Prescient Patty (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQTz_EzPSmFt43L7lep3yVhE6M4V6GLmn9CGo46X6FBBlwJl4PnwEvZ6_Md7kB2HDt4c3tIjKnwMSw2/pubhtml?gid=793272131&single=true), Alan's sister. Unlike Alan, Patty stayed in school, and learned all about computers.

    She has a deck and a cyberjack and ASDF of 7/6/9/8. She rolls 15 dice in Cybercombat and 13 in Computer, which covers most of the main Matrix stuff; she has -2 on those dice pools for other Matrix actions.

    She rolls 11+2d6 for initiative and just like Alan has Edge of 5 and dual SMGs, so she can bust out Anticipation on her first move. When she does, she'll lay down 4x attacks, each with 12 dice, DV 5P, AR 10/13/10/-/-.

    Unlike Alan, she has some options for quickly regaining Edge by carrying out 1 Data Spike. This is guaranteed to generate 1 Edge due to Analytical Mind, and as long as she picks the weakest device or commlink she can see, will be quite likely to generate a second Edge due to her deck's pretty reasonable Attack+Sleaze stats of 13. It doesn't matter one bit if the hack attempt succeeds or not.

    This means if she can beg 1 point of Edge from a team-mate, she can hope to use Anticipate on the third combat round as well as the first.

    She also has 1 Major and 3 Minor actions per turn, which means she can keep 1 Minor in reserve at all times for defence. This raises her Defence Test from 11 to 18 dice so is well worth the investment.

    But there's a better trick that I just thought of. She pops by the Suffer Shack and buys a load of Rating 0 commlinks for a few nuyen. First round, she can use 1 Major + 1 Minor for Anticipate / Multiple Attacks.  She can then use her remaining two Minor actions to turn the wireless functionality of two of the commlinks off again. Each of these is a Electronics + Logic (1) test, so each garners a point of Edge, as per Analytical Mind.

    She now enters the second combat turn with 3 points of Edge. She uses her first Minor action to repeat this trick, giving her the 4 she needs for Anticipate, and then she can do 1 Major + 1 Minor to put another 48 attack dice down on the table.

    (I've done this one in a bit of a rush so I may have made some small slips, although I don't think so. In any event I think the general principle holds.)
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: GuardDuty on <09-01-19/1506:43>
    What does it sound like for one team mate to "beg" a point of Edge from another?
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-19/1510:35>
    What does it sound like for one team mate to "beg" a point of Edge from another?

    That's already covered. You can spend 2 to give 1 away to someone else.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: GuardDuty on <09-01-19/1516:35>
    I don't mean how does it work.  I mean, what does it sound like?  What does your character say to try and "beg" Edge from someone?
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-01-19/1522:20>
    ďYo, little help?Ē

    Depends what fiction your GM/table wants to use. Admittedly itís a bit strained if, say, a samurai gives Edge to a mage who used it in Astral Combat while projecting, or to a decker who uses it whole hacking. Iíve... actually Iíve no idea how you do that.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-01-19/2117:43>
    Thanks for posting this penllawen! Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
    No worries! If you take a pass at it, Iíd like to see what you come up with. Iím sure thereís ways to improve.

    Will do. My plan was to make my namesake which was a dual pistol (and Panther) wielding Phys Ad from 4e.  I think it's going to be tricky to make him in 6e as a Phys Ad, so I think I'll make him as Street Sam first.  Hopefully that will help me wrap my brain around character generation a little better before I try a Phys Ad.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-02-19/2051:11>
    Ok.  Below is a link to a copy of the spreadsheet I use to make characters.  Sorry if it's a little scattered, but it works for my scattered brain. :D

    One note: I'm running with 20 earned karma as the max allowed to be earned from Negative Qualities rather than the 20 net karma as written.  I'd rather have to add things to the character than have to figure out what to remove if this gets errata.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K8SYnECdG5Q4Wss4LQ8vda9h3WRTR7PvLqabsUP4VVw/edit?usp=sharing

    Dicepools:

    Firearms (Automatics): 16 (19; 20 with wireless Smartgun)
    Athletics: 13
    Stealth: 13
    Perception (Visual): 8 (10)
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: markelphoenix on <09-02-19/2208:21>
    Ok.  Below is a link to a copy of the spreadsheet I use to make characters.  Sorry if it's a little scattered, but it works for my scattered brain. :D

    One note: I'm running with 20 earned karma as the max allowed to be earned from Negative Qualities rather than the 20 net karma as written.  I'd rather have to add things to the character than have to figure out what to remove if this gets errata.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K8SYnECdG5Q4Wss4LQ8vda9h3WRTR7PvLqabsUP4VVw/edit?usp=sharing

    Dicepools:

    Firearms (Automatics): 16 (19; 20 with wireless Smartgun)
    Athletics: 13
    Stealth: 13
    Perception (Visual): 8 (10)

    First thing I noticed is a lot of wasted skill points. Makes much more karma economic sense to spend skill points to boost/buy the higher level skills you're spending karma on, then spend only 5 karma to raised those level 1 skills you wasted skill points on. Same with specialization. Take Perception to 3 with skill points, then spend 5 karma to specialize in visual.

    Also, only one specialization allowed during character generation.

    Also, Aria made a pretty wiz Excel char generator for 6e with formulas and everything, pretty fragin' sweet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HgUQPBL9C4PuZbDv7Kc9F_jvt11hQ25p/view
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-03-19/1136:05>
    Ok.  Below is a link to a copy of the spreadsheet I use to make characters.  Sorry if it's a little scattered, but it works for my scattered brain. :D
    Nice! Thanks for sharing.

    Quote
    One note: I'm running with 20 earned karma as the max allowed to be earned from Negative Qualities rather than the 20 net karma as written.  I'd rather have to add things to the character than have to figure out what to remove if this gets errata.
    This is probably wise, although I guess we've no idea how it's going to get errata-ed so you may need to brace for changes regardless.

    First thing I noticed is a lot of wasted skill points. Makes much more karma economic sense to spend skill points to boost/buy the higher level skills you're spending karma on, then spend only 5 karma to raised those level 1 skills you wasted skill points on. Same with specialization. Take Perception to 3 with skill points, then spend 5 karma to specialize in visual.
    +1 to that

    No cybereyes seems surprising?

    Platelet Factories are well worth trying to sneak in, if you can manage it.

    Maybe consider APDS ammo, at least in a few spare magazines. The +2AR, while on the face of it not as useful as the net +2DV on explosive ammo, might help contribute towards rapid Edge rebuild and getting to use Anticipate more often.

    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-03-19/1208:54>
    Thanks for the feedback!

    That's a good point about the skill points. I'll take a look at tweaking the skills later.

    I somehow missed that character generator. That's really impressive!

    I actually had cybereyes in the build initially, but wanted to try some other ware (like damage comp), and cybereyes get pricey compared to contacts+glasses. Might rethink that, but in my head I like the idea of High Pain Tolerance and Damage compensators pushing the -1 penalty down to the end of the second row (if I'm understanding damage compensators correctly).

    I was wondering whether APDS would be better for the Edge building but decided to go with Explosive ammo since APDS is all I would buy in 4e & 5e.  I should probably try to squeeze a couple APDS clips in the build.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: penllawen on <09-03-19/1249:15>
    That's a cute idea about stacking High Pain Tolerance and Damage Compensators, I might make a note of that one.

    If you're really gaming the system, I guess you'd start combat with explosive, figure out the opposition DRs, do the maths, and decide whether or not to switch to APDS there and then... I feel a bit tawdry suggesting this though.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Hobbes on <09-03-19/1911:39>


    I actually had cybereyes in the build initially, but wanted to try some other ware (like damage comp), and cybereyes get pricey compared to contacts+glasses. Might rethink that, but in my head I like the idea of High Pain Tolerance and Damage compensators pushing the -1 penalty down to the end of the second row (if I'm understanding damage compensators correctly).


    Toss in Built Tough (you did!).  Also, Adrenaline Pump, Kamikaze, and Pain Editor let you totally ignore condition modifiers if Damage Compensators aren't doin' it for you. 

    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-03-19/2100:14>
    Updated the spreadsheet with a bunch of the suggestions above.

    Omg, Hobbes, that sounds like the user and everyone around him/her would die. :D

    How about Pain Editor+Psyche? All the benefits of the a Pain Editor, no loss of Intuition.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: markelphoenix on <09-03-19/2206:34>
    It's moments like this that I like our community.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: Hobbes on <09-03-19/2226:31>
    Updated the spreadsheet with a bunch of the suggestions above.

    Omg, Hobbes, that sounds like the user and everyone around him/her would die. :D

    How about Pain Editor+Psyche? All the benefits of the a Pain Editor, no loss of Intuition.

    Well I meant, like, pick one....  But yes Pain Editor and Psyche are solid. 
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-04-19/0743:32>
    Updated the spreadsheet with a bunch of the suggestions above.

    Omg, Hobbes, that sounds like the user and everyone around him/her would die. :D

    How about Pain Editor+Psyche? All the benefits of the a Pain Editor, no loss of Intuition.

    Well I meant, like, pick one....  But yes Pain Editor and Psyche are solid.

     ??? Ummm....I knew that? :D

    This does make me want to play around with a build that uses the Adrenaline Pump now.
    Title: Re: Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future
    Post by: tequila on <09-08-19/2036:36>
    Not sure I'm happy with him, but here's my Adept version:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QiqT5AzSh7eunhElDha3O4RNiyl1_bNNXld44vNl-js/edit?usp=sharing