Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: penllawen on (08:23:35/08-05-19)

Title: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: penllawen on (08:23:35/08-05-19)
(Cribbed from Reddit and a friend, I don't have the book.)

In SR6e, it seems that:


I'm trying not to knee-jerk here but I can't understand this at all from either a game mechanics standpoint nor a world building one. How can the majority of the world's guns-and-ammo manufacturing change so quickly? Wouldn't the tags make ammo significantly more expensive? Won't PCs just wipe all their tags anyway, making this a no-op change? Why are we making PCs spend time rolling dice to sanitise their ammo? Or why wouldn't every backroom arms dealer in the world have a few 10-nuyen-per-day squatters just zapping ammo with tag erasers?

Can anyone explain this to me?
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (08:41:17/08-05-19)
The book describes the corps want cased ammo because they want to know who's firing at them. So they do actually cover why and how from Ingame perspective. As a result of the crackdown, caseless ammo is harder to get, while half the cased ammo has tags in it. Guns are either cased or caseless, not both.

As for tags: I think they were 10 for a nuyen in SR5 and that is for players. For corps they're far cheaper.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (08:53:54/08-05-19)
As for the logistics of switching between caseless and cased ammo... I view it as a minor retcon as of the new edition rather than suddenly arms manufacturers are all of the sudden only building guns that only fire cased ammo.

Guns just NEVER had a caseless "phase", just like aspected mages didn't suddenly gain the ability to project... as of 6we they "always have been able to". So as of 6we, caseless ammo has always been the rare exception.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: penllawen on (09:25:00/08-05-19)
As for tags: I think they were 10 for a nuyen in SR5 and that is for players. For corps they're far cheaper.
In SR5: standard tags are 10 for a nuyen, but stealth tags are 1 nuyen each. Wouldn't these ammo tracker tags have to be stealthed? Otherwise they're trivial to spot via a Matrix glance. Meanwhile, still in SR5, base ammo is 20 nuyen for 10 rounds. So even basic tags represent a 5% rise in cost to make the ammo, and a stealth tag is +50%. That's quite a lot to handwave away, surely?

But the fluff I could deal with, if I understood why this was a good thing for the game mechanics. It seems to me to do nothing but add busywork for PCs to do every time they go shopping.

The only way I can see to use this for anything is to invoke GM fiat and say "aha, turns out your tag erased missed one, so now that casing you left behind is being tracked to you!" which feels like a violation of player agency.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: KatoHearts on (09:54:55/08-05-19)
It's idiotic busy work, ignore it. It's not like you'll be buying ammo from legitimate retailers. Instead you'll be buying from criminals and smugglers who have a vested interest in killing tags that report directly to law enforcement.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (10:00:32/08-05-19)
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: KatoHearts on (10:25:37/08-05-19)
Further, it's not clear if Caseless is a type or a modifier. Specifically, It's not clear if you can have caseless apds or caseless sns rounds.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (10:29:41/08-05-19)
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.

This is a pretty clear example the Oberoni Fallacy, or at least a variant of it I can't remember the name of. From what I hear the actual rules for RFID ammo are so vague and weird that it pretty clearly is the system failing and forcing the GM to intervene to fix it, which is a clear indication of bad design.

I don't even mind the implication that RFID ammo is now the norm among normal people, even though the idea of corps forcing that through between editions is literally bonkers, because edition changes are a good place to just change the lore and mechanics backing the lore without justification, it kinda is the point after all that it is a good spot to change how things work. But from what I have heard it definitely doesn't read like 'runners don't need to bother with this' so if its intended that runners can just get caseless ammo whenever they want that probably should be errata'd in, because it seems like the implication is that you can't easily get caseless and there is no information on how you go about it, and that isn't a remotely insignificant detail.

Like... the ability of gun using PCs to realistically participate in anonymous violent crime, AKA shadowruns, without having to pass tests to tag erase bullets is kinda a big deal... Like maybe this is people getting up in arms over nothing but it sounds like there is a serious conveyance issue combined with an attempt to ICly justify a change that probably should have just been a retacon.

That said, the idea is cool. It sorta adds to the 'superpower' of being SINless, the concept that the cops are dependent on bullets telling them who shot them and helps cement the idea that runners using black market high end gear are crazy hard to trace. Reminds me of how much Android Netrunner helped build the lore just by putting "Unregistered" in front of the only firearm card in the game to impress upon you that the power of that card didn't come from the fact it was a (rather weak) pistol but from the fact it absolutely couldn't be traced to you so you could kill sys-ops and execs with it after finding their adress from corp HQ with literally no heat on yourself. It kinda pushes the idea that SINlessness and being outside the system is kinda a mystical protection runners have in a sense.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: KatoHearts on (10:33:21/08-05-19)
Specifically half of all cased ammo has the tags in. Honestly it makes less sense that way.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (10:42:29/08-05-19)
Specifically half of all cased ammo has the tags in. Honestly it makes less sense that way.

That doesn't make sense. Also doesn't make sense the fine folks at Crime Mall, the thing that 100% canonically exists to showcase how vast and powerful the black market is in setting to the point it has the economies of scale to directly compete on price and convenience with the regular market, would sell ammo made in illegal barrens factory complexes off of corporate blueprints they stole with legit tracking RFIDs or wouldn't clean ammo they stole or that was pushed to the black market through official corporate channels.

This feels like it shouldn't have been presented as a mechanic at all, because runners by all rights should never actually need to care. It feels more like having a legally licensed gun in 5e where there are no rules for worrying about that because you never would need to do that unless you actively sought it out. It would probably have been better just to say "most ammo is tracked, but runner ammo isn't, which makes runners extra spoopy and mysterious' rather than presenting some weird test to clean 50% of your ammo.

Its neat LORE, again ignoring the fact that any attempt to make cased ammo standard would fail just as hard as any attempt by corps to force people back to using cap and ball ammo due to the fact that caseless ammo has so many technical and logistical advantages over cased ammo outside of tractability that you would pretty much fail to actually get anyone to comply, ignoring the timescales and the fact that firearms tend to be supported for decades and decades after the are no longer made. I super like the idea that most chumps are using dumb tracable ammo cuz they are chumps and my elite criminal totally outside THE SYSTEM and invisible to THE MAN has this neat edge that probably would make two hardboiled detectives examining the crimescene I left banter about how I was a freakin ghost and even my bullets didn't have ID markers on them. It just seems to have been implemented really poorly as a pseudo-mechanic that only added more admin to an edition nominally about removing it.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: KatoHearts on (10:46:00/08-05-19)
On the other hand I suppose it doesn't matter what you do if the opfor is using tagged ammo.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (10:47:10/08-05-19)
On the other hand I suppose it doesn't matter what you do if the opfor is using tagged ammo.

Wait, are all bullets tracer rounds now? RFID tags don't generally work that way, you can't trade an RFID you don't own and if you owned the tags on your ammo you could just turn em off and wipe them.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: KatoHearts on (10:55:43/08-05-19)
Wait, are all bullets tracer rounds now? RFID tags don't generally work that way, you can't trade an RFID you don't own and if you owned the tags on your ammo you could just turn em off and wipe them.

Pretty clear these bullets are playing by their own rules, but I'd laugh if you could just turn them off.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: duckman on (11:24:47/08-05-19)
Pretty clear these bullets are playing by their own rules, but I'd laugh if you could just turn them off.
By the first rule (i.e. that Shadowrunners exist) you can throw this rule out.  There is no mechanic where RFID tags exist and work where they don't end the existence of Runners.  Just as a hint from 60 seconds thinking about it... RFID tags have been used in shoplifting prevention, all it takes is a sensor on the door that reads ammo coming into a building or area followed by armed response and Runners no longer exist.  By logical extension, that means that anyone who manufactures ammo must also share the RFID tag so that the other guys can look up the tag and track it but since runners take inter-corp jobs all the time that means that corps have a vested interest in not sharing RFIDs with their targets.  There is no world in which RFID works and runners exist.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Marcus on (11:59:23/08-05-19)
This is just dumb. So now characters have to cook all ammo ahead of time. This is just the sort typical bad for player nonsense I have come to expect from 6e. Apparently they don't want you using ammo you take from Oppfor? Other then this just being another silly gotcha ya mechanic this is a waste of the space it took to print this text to the CRB. If 6e is about simplification this is yet another step in the wrong direction.

 
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (13:36:18/08-05-19)
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

Fixer hires 2 squatters and gives them basic training on a hand rfid destroyer. They sweat shop Labor it and clean 600 rounds a hour each. And thatís assuming he doesnít own some big machine that automated it or a drone with a autosoft and enough dice to buy the hits. Pick the choice that fits your dystopia.

NCIS Seattle, can you trace the bullets tech nerd. No they cleaned them, they must be pros.  Music sound effect.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:50:05/08-05-19)
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: penllawen on (14:35:22/08-05-19)
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.
Exactly my thinking, yes.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (15:00:36/08-05-19)
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.

On that Iíd agree. And normally itís not a issue but if they are trying to stay under 300 pages and waste word bluntness on this and argle bargle, fo fum it is a issue.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Xenon on (15:04:07/08-05-19)
Removing the tag from 10 cased bullets just require a tag eraser and an Electronics + Logic (2, 1 minute) test. As long as your team have a decker (or rigger?) then you basically just hand-wave this. Its more or less just a narrative thing rather than an actual game mechanic thing.

Also, APDS is rarely made caseless (because the sabot shells are left lying around anyway). And since APDS decrease DV (if I understand it correctly game-mechanic-wise they are now basically just Flechette+) I'm not sure it will be so useful going forward anyway...
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Duellist_D on (15:37:17/08-05-19)
I'm honestly curious about who wrote this rule and what his/her reasoning behind it was.
Probably won't get an answer though...
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (16:54:37/08-05-19)
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (18:38:20/08-05-19)
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.
Exactly. Even if the GM agrees that your illegal source will wipe the tags (so they are NEVER traced back to them!), the legal bullets you encounter have this stuff! And if you just buy in a shop with a fake SIN, you're risking a paper trail unless you pay extra for caseless and have a caseless gun.

Players can go 'we'll just get caseless', or they can go 'my cop source is smart enough to wipe it so my usage doesn't get him fired' or say 'I'll go cased, but tag eraser and let the decker check if we missed anything and if so hack and format + reboot device', and honestly a GM should consider that plenty because of the following:
- The GM is the final referee, but should act wisely (p231)
- The GM should use, not abuse, authority (p231)
- The GM should establish what elements the players like and what they're comfortable with, to create a game they can enjoy (p232)

The GM is NOT the players' enemy. Any GM that disagrees with that statement needs a rather severe tongue-lashing.

But it does open up plot opportunities, so as long as the GM is fair with the players, I don't see the problem with this new system. The corps wisened up, just like they did with the Matrix, and we have to deal with them making our job harder... "For years, the streets managed to snag and use caseless rounds in order to stay clear of the law tracking them, but ..."
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Aria on (19:06:07/08-05-19)
And donít get caught with erased bullets... thatís bound to be a felony! So handwaive the rules but itís another thing to consider when running through Bellevue on a fakeSIN... the black trench coat part of me thinks this sounds ok...
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (19:45:48/08-05-19)
And donít get caught with erased bullets... thatís bound to be a felony! So handwaive the rules but itís another thing to consider when running through Bellevue on a fakeSIN... the black trench coat part of me thinks this sounds ok...

I donít have a problem with the rule and actually like it, but with a 300 page count limit itís something Iíd of cut for a supplement. Making the core rules clearer would have been a bigger priority, fluff like this not so much. Though I think a page count limit was silly. A page count limit on the rules section and Iíd be for it. Be clear and concise enough to get the rules down to 20 pages. Hey great. Limit the history, gear, spells, powers, creatures, stories etc as well just seems stupid.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Marcus on (20:21:15/08-05-19)
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.

This holds no water. What folks object to is the bullets telling the cops when/where the shots were fired and the crime was committed.  The brand of ammo has no meaning. What your gonna say oh they were working for Ares cause they have Ares bullets? Yeah right. How many bullets you think Ares sells? Tagged bullets is just going to get you heat and make the runners look stupid. You think any professional runner is gonna be dumb enough to use bullet a Johnson gave them without tag clearing it? It's design is first and form most to screw players, and mainly going to effect newbs which makes it even worse.

No professional  is going trust any bullet until they have tag cleared it themselves.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: duckman on (20:54:50/08-05-19)
I still have problems thinking that this passes muster with the First Rule.  If this kind of stuff ever works then it works too well and Shadowrunning doesn't exist.  To make this work every manufacturer of bullets has to agree to a standard and possibly a database of product.  What is the benefit of "This is an Ares Predator round"?  Nobody is going to pay to implement that...  Ballistics already knows that.  So it contains more...  Who sold it?  What batch it came from?  Now it is either enough to shut down runners (either by killing their suppliers or by giving them away directly) or it is so poor a system that it never works (and then like the anti-copy band on a CD that could be defeated by a magic marker, it will stop being used within a year).

Never mind that what they want is really more easily accomplished either with a well-arranged set of directional microphones or a ritual that sets up a spirit-net to watch for guns being fired.


This is not about how a runner can beat the system...  it's about who cannot beat the system and does it still provide any benefit to the corps that are putting the "RFID chips" out there.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (21:07:05/08-05-19)
I still have problems thinking that this passes muster with the First Rule.  If this kind of stuff ever works then it works too well and Shadowrunning doesn't exist.  To make this work every manufacturer of bullets has to agree to a standard and possibly a database of product.  What is the benefit of "This is an Ares Predator round"?  Nobody is going to pay to implement that...  Ballistics already knows that.  So it contains more...  Who sold it?  What batch it came from?  Now it is either enough to shut down runners (either by killing their suppliers or by giving them away directly) or it is so poor a system that it never works (and then like the anti-copy band on a CD that could be defeated by a magic marker, it will stop being used within a year).

Never mind that what they want is really more easily accomplished either with a well-arranged set of directional microphones or a ritual that sets up a spirit-net to watch for guns being fired.


This is not about how a runner can beat the system...  it's about who cannot beat the system and does it still provide any benefit to the corps that are putting the "RFID chips" out there.

Honestly the biggest thing that would probably defeat such a system, even if working fully like intended (and I can't see cooperation between groups like Lone Star and the Pawns), would be a combination of lazy admins who either don't want to be bothered to send someone to check it out (ugh, paperwork), or just ignores it cause 'crime ridden area'. A lot of crimes never get solved because of just that sort of thing. Then factor in the noise of a few hundred to a thousand other signals and icons that they could just be lost in the jungle that is the Matrix. Even then (I haven't read up on them fully yet, so grain of salt) I really doubt they're very high powered signal wise or long lasting. Even if one puts out a ping there may be no cop who can pick it up in range in the time it's active.

Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.
You think any professional runner is gonna be dumb enough to use bullet a Johnson gave them without tag clearing it?

Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Sendaz on (21:23:17/08-05-19)
Just be glad they didn't try adding the next logical step.

No RIFD handshake from the bullet, no firing by the weapon.

How many companies would love to slip that into their weapon's so you have to buy and use aboveboard ammo, hell some would probably even make it go a step further and require the tags to match the brand of weapon, so Ares guns only fire legit Ares-brand ammo.

So then Runners would not only have to strip tags from the ammo, but also strip back any weapons to throwback levels to let them use untagged ammo.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (23:25:06/08-05-19)

Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.

That sounds like totally hot garbage. It literally creating a mechanic to enshrine 'Gotcha' GMing, which is Bulldrek.

This was meant to be the edition where you needed to track less drek and not worry about fiddly garbage as much. The idea that this exists to, essentially, get new players who don't know about this fiddly garbage killed is so disgusting a design I actually refuse to believe it is real or at the very least intended. The idea of introducing administrative nonsense that purely exists to hurt players who aren't aware it exists, forget it exists, or don't have a decker on team is like... agressively one of the worst RPG design concepts I have ever heard, and I read Cthulhupunk through.

I could literally see that be someone's first experience with RPGs. They have fun, they go on a run. Their GM handed them a street samurai, they got fancy ammo and protected their team, had great banter, fell in love with their character. And then the GM tells them they got arrested and killed and the fun character they enjoyed doesn't exist anymore because they made a mistake not knowing about this stupid admin rule, and they quit RPGs and never play again.

Like... Ugh. I can't express how much I despise this interpretation of this rule. It actively makes my skin crawl.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Marcus on (00:35:30/08-06-19)

Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.

That sounds like totally hot garbage. It literally creating a mechanic to enshrine 'Gotcha' GMing, which is Bulldrek.

This was meant to be the edition where you needed to track less drek and not worry about fiddly garbage as much. The idea that this exists to, essentially, get new players who don't know about this fiddly garbage killed is so disgusting a design I actually refuse to believe it is real or at the very least intended. The idea of introducing administrative nonsense that purely exists to hurt players who aren't aware it exists, forget it exists, or don't have a decker on team is like... agressively one of the worst RPG design concepts I have ever heard, and I read Cthulhupunk through.

I could literally see that be someone's first experience with RPGs. They have fun, they go on a run. Their GM handed them a street samurai, they got fancy ammo and protected their team, had great banter, fell in love with their character. And then the GM tells them they got arrested and killed and the fun character they enjoyed doesn't exist anymore because they made a mistake not knowing about this stupid admin rule, and they quit RPGs and never play again.

Like... Ugh. I can't express how much I despise this interpretation of this rule. It actively makes my skin crawl.
Yup. I feel the same way.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (01:50:08/08-06-19)
I should point out there is a gun where you can change ownership in a Minor. Combined with this it's the perfect way to frame someone.

Anyway this is another rule you can easily ignore at your table but can also be used to awesome results. So I rather like it. If you don't, just ignore it. Nobody's going to ban you for it.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: BeCareful on (03:16:30/08-06-19)
My first reaction to this: "So every gun & bullet-producing corp in the world agreed to take a big step backwards, and include tiny bits of hardware in these bullet casings (that can survive the heat & pressure of discharge) in order to what? Catch the runners they hired? Data mine anyone who fires any of their bullets? Won't this just make Arms Laundering an extra step nobody had to do before?"

Then later, reading counterpoints: "Oh, then this probably would've worked better as a bit of background info: SINers use tracked bullets so you can't just steal theirs, but runners use laundered/caseless ones so you don't have to worry about that."

Now, my idea is: "Before going on the run, I call up my contact and give him my TMP with three clips/mags of Ares SlugsTM. The gun's his if he heads out into the middle of nowhere and uses up all the ammo. That should distract KE long enough."
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (05:38:15/08-06-19)
My first reaction to this: "So every gun & bullet-producing corp in the world agreed to take a big step backwards, and include tiny bits of hardware in these bullet casings (that can survive the heat & pressure of discharge) in order to what? Catch the runners they hired? Data mine anyone who fires any of their bullets? Won't this just make Arms Laundering an extra step nobody had to do before?"

Then later, reading counterpoints: "Oh, then this probably would've worked better as a bit of background info: SINers use tracked bullets so you can't just steal theirs, but runners use laundered/caseless ones so you don't have to worry about that."

Considering the sidebar that comments on this tech existing has no real rules other then the TN to wipe them, thatís exactly what it seems like to me. Guns with wireless have been registered to their owners for several editions now and stealth tags have been commented to be used in high value items or as ways for corps to track people and things. They just figured out how to put them in bullets now. Hell, itís even been commented the cloths have tags in them that send messages to your com when they are in need of a wash. Itís just a part of the background whoís relevance will vary from table to table.

Also, guns themselves already had linked owners unless they were throwback weapons, so erasing the tags and ownership files was just another aspect of taking a file to the serial numbers.


Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.

That sounds like totally hot garbage. It literally creating a mechanic to enshrine 'Gotcha' GMing, which is Bulldrek.

This was meant to be the edition where you needed to track less drek and not worry about fiddly garbage as much. The idea that this exists to, essentially, get new players who don't know about this fiddly garbage killed is so disgusting a design I actually refuse to believe it is real or at the very least intended. The idea of introducing administrative nonsense that purely exists to hurt players who aren't aware it exists, forget it exists, or don't have a decker on team is like... agressively one of the worst RPG design concepts I have ever heard, and I read Cthulhupunk through.

I could literally see that be someone's first experience with RPGs. They have fun, they go on a run. Their GM handed them a street samurai, they got fancy ammo and protected their team, had great banter, fell in love with their character. And then the GM tells them they got arrested and killed and the fun character they enjoyed doesn't exist anymore because they made a mistake not knowing about this stupid admin rule, and they quit RPGs and never play again.

Like... Ugh. I can't express how much I despise this interpretation of this rule. It actively makes my skin crawl.

This has been able to be done for quite some time now via whoever the gun itself is registered from, or stealth tattletale tags fit to literally anything else you were given. The tags have been a part of the game since 4th, more then a literal decade now.

If a GM pulls this kind of stunt that isnít a rules problem, thatís an asshole GM problem. If this sidebar comment didnít exist there are tons of ways to screw over players in the exact same manor. I was more surprised to see the sidebar because with the ubiquitous nature of everything, even down to your socks and underwear, having tags built into them I figured this was already a thing.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Marcus on (11:13:25/08-06-19)
Sure having training times as an optional rule is annoying and at best lazy game design but whatever. This is different, this isn't under optional rules; use if it fits your game. Sure a GM can always ignore a rule, but this is intended to be used. Which means it will be live in official play. It also was never mentioned in any live play example I saw, which means this is something was that was purposely hidden under NDA. Clearly folks knew this was not going to be well received. Further the facts that it's being defended is just insane to me. I'm done with this nonsense. So I'm out. Continue to add input on this forum is useless. Several of you aren't interested in making change to improve 6e, only in justifying the nonsense that is 6e. This edition isn't about SR as I know it. It's about petty gotcha game design.

Best of luck to those whom are remain.


Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:43:56/08-06-19)
Anyway this is another rule you can easily ignore at your table but can also be used to awesome results. So I rather like it. If you don't, just ignore it. Nobody's going to ban you for it.

More enabling of lazy game design....

"If you don't like it, ignore it!"

I bet you're hoping that people don't take that to heart for the entire edition, aren't you?

More directly, this is the best defense you can muster?
The mere addition of this rule violates two proscribed goals of Sixth World.

And that cuts to the heart of the matter.  Customers are tired of CGL handling Shadowrun.  Part of that is that they never seem to have a clear vision for what they want from the game.  As this shows, even when they do - they frag it for the lulz.

Well played.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: incrdbil on (18:46:09/08-06-19)

I could literally see that be someone's first experience with RPGs. They have fun, they go on a run. Their GM handed them a street samurai, they got fancy ammo and protected their team, had great banter, fell in love with their character. And then the GM tells them they got arrested and killed and the fun character they enjoyed doesn't exist anymore because they made a mistake not knowing about this stupid admin rule, and they quit RPGs and never play again.

Like... Ugh. I can't express how much I despise this interpretation of this rule. It actively makes my skin crawl.

I want blame the rule for that. a GM who would  do that is a dirtbag GM, and they are going to screw players and make a game miserable whatever the rules are.

The rule, as wirrten, is sort of a waste of space. it makes a sort of cool background thing. But it seems better expressed as "Normal ammo costs are X. But Runners pay X*(insert percentage) more for all ammo because they have to acquires illegal, scrubbed ammo.

the rule works best as a "you are out of ammo, and all you have left is ammo stolen from a guard, and you cant risk firing it until you scrub it--and this is how you do it."

Of course, screwing over someone else's team by sneaking tagged ammo into their 'scrubbed' stock could be a mission of its own.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (19:27:55/08-06-19)
I think anyone who wants to think on any remotely deep level about RPG game design, they should really become aware of the Oberoni Fallacy (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy) (Yes, its a 1d4chan link, and it sucks that that is the only place that hosts a detailed rundown of the concept, but its so important you should power through).

"A GM who wants to ruin the game can use any rule" and "If you don't like it you can ignore it" are BOTH invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. Good rulesets can be abused by bad GMs and bad rulesets fixed, but there is an objective quality to rulesets and systems.  You can't imagine a hypothetical terrible GM or a good GM, you imagine what kind of GM behavior will naturally occur with the system.

This system naturally seems to create abusive Gm behavior because it encourages your Gms to try to catch out runners who forget admin details by pushing those rules to the forefront and creating a mechanized system to avoid them. Compare to 4e and 5e, which outright said 'runners just tag errase everything or own their tags' and DIDN'T push the idea that this would catch anyone. One of those 'naturally' creates bad behavior, one does not.

This, combined with the fact apparently HTR is now a 'deniable asset' and that 'a single drop of blood can catch runners out when the cops have a mage on the payroll' tells me quite strongly this game encourages "gotcha" GMing: There is a focus on having the GM look for ways for the runners to be screwed in the course of normal play, which... sucks. Like maybe those passages aren't real but I don't think the people who told me about em would lie.
 
Doesn't matter that a good GM will just realize this isn't good and will ignore that, because that indicates to a good GM the system sucks.

Doesn't matter a bad GM will do that anyway, because the system in this scenario TRAINS GMs to be abusive.

The reason this fallacy is dangerous is because it basically posits the entire concept of RPG design doesn't exist; like many fallacies it doesn't depend on the actual quality of the argument, it instead recontextualizes the discussion to make it so that there is no ability to come to any truth, and thus the fallacy can apply to literally any RPG system regardless of how good or bad it is. Ex: "Yeah, FATAL is a mess of design but bad GMs who want to be misogynistic creeps would be anyway and good GMs can just fix all the problems."

And yet it is very obvious that FATAL is a terrible RPG. This isn't to say this rule is on par with FATAL, but the exact same argument applies to FATAL's rules that encourage abusive behavior as this rule. If you accept this logic as true for SR, you have to accept it as true for FATAL, which is why this is a fallacy. It also is circular: It posits a problem isn't a problem because one will by default fix the problem, which in reality admits the problem exists while attempting to deny the problem exists. Obviously that is nonsense, a rule or mechanic is still broken even if the patch is easy.

You can argue how much something encourages bad GMing, or if it does or doesn't, but you can't just say 'the GM overrides my design anyway.' Which is the main defense that seems to be in play here: People aren't talking about how likely it is to encourage bad GMing, they are just saying bad GMs are going to be bad GMs and the design is independent of that.

I think the concept is fine, again, the idea that runners are unique in being untracable is cool. But the fact that the rules and some people in the thread pushed it as a way to 'catch' players out kinda indicates that it isn't meant for that, which is sorta why its getting dragged. Good ideas can have bad implementation.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Typhus on (19:47:19/08-06-19)
Shadowrun has a history of training GMs to be abusive.  Tailchaser missions, and other such unsatisfying endings were a big part of 1E and 2E.  The life of a shadowrunner was expected to be imperfect and reflect an abusive society (and also to feel more like Cyberpunk, I expect).  It had the unintended effect of teaching GMs bad habits, and I shudder to think how many good "big" moments I failed to deliver as a rookie GM back in the day trying to meet that standard and not script in a satisfying ending.

I also used to let players fail through lack of understanding of their game world.  They make errors most often because they aren't immersed enough in the world to realize what they are up against.  I used to let my world beat on them for that, instead of saying "as an experienced shadowrunner, you would know..." and then letting them make an informed choice.

Hopefully gaming has evolved to aim at letting a good story take the place of rules and advice that wreck the experience for players. 
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: dezmont on (20:14:24/08-06-19)
I also used to let players fail through lack of understanding of their game world.  They make errors most often because they aren't immersed enough in the world to realize what they are up against.  I used to let my world beat on them for that, instead of saying "as an experienced shadowrunner, you would know..." and then letting them make an informed choice.

I find that just flatly telling players things they 'should' know or that you think are 'obvious' is the best practice. In reality punishing players for 'obvious' mistakes is kinda weird and mean because like... it is a fictional world you are imagining and your really just punishing a fellow human being trying to engage with your world in their own imagination for not imagining things exactly the same as you.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (21:40:34/08-06-19)
The default assumption is that chargen PCs are in actuality experienced and established shadowrunners, which makes giving "you know THIS" and "you know THAT is a bad idea" tips very reasonable... borderline UN-reasonable if you fail to do so.

OTOH, in a street-scum campaign? Full-bore Paranoia RPG GM shenanigans are called for, imo :D
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (21:44:22/08-06-19)
Every GM started out as a rookie at some point. Rules should ideally be written to guide them to success not failure.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Hobbes on (21:46:15/08-06-19)
Every GM started out as a rookie at some point. Rules should ideally be written to guide them to success not failure.

+1
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Midnight_Creeper on (23:01:47/08-06-19)
Pretty clear these bullets are playing by their own rules, but I'd laugh if you could just turn them off.
By the first rule (i.e. that Shadowrunners exist) you can throw this rule out.  There is no mechanic where RFID tags exist and work where they don't end the existence of Runners.  Just as a hint from 60 seconds thinking about it... RFID tags have been used in shoplifting prevention, all it takes is a sensor on the door that reads ammo coming into a building or area followed by armed response and Runners no longer exist.  By logical extension, that means that anyone who manufactures ammo must also share the RFID tag so that the other guys can look up the tag and track it but since runners take inter-corp jobs all the time that means that corps have a vested interest in not sharing RFIDs with their targets.  There is no world in which RFID works and runners exist.

Midnight Creeper and his crew are planning a run against a local Mitsuhama R&D lab. They have sourced Mitsuhama security outfits, proper Mitsuhama security equipment, and ammo. Creeper rewrites the RFIDs embedded in the various items based on Mitsuhama RFIDs he gleaned from the Matrix. When the time comes, the runners slip in, the door sensors registering the arrival of an expected Mitsuhama security detail (thanks to some tinkering Creeper did to the R&D labs schedule via the Matrix).

I think assuming that the corps would use off-the-shelf RFIDed ammo is shortsighted, I could totally see them RFIDing every round they purchase and using a custom internal ID, not only will that allow them to ID their own spent shells from intruders, it also makes inventory keeping easy. I mean, many if not all the corps keep track of their employees via the RFID in their clothing, thanks to dress codes. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same to even minor office supplies ("whoa, Tim, I'm going to have to ask you to leave that stylus in your pocket at the desk before you leave the building, it's corp property").
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Typhus on (23:20:05/08-06-19)
The default assumption is that chargen PCs are in actuality experienced and established shadowrunners, which makes giving "you know THIS" and "you know THAT is a bad idea" tips very reasonable... borderline UN-reasonable if you fail to do so.

Absolutely.  It's my default now in any game.  There's a lot of "grab and go" type game play now, so it's pretty mandatory anyway.  Plus its so fragging cool to see them really start to get it, and get more into it.  They always find some way to surprise me.  Then it's like I get to play too.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (03:38:22/08-07-19)
Pretty clear these bullets are playing by their own rules, but I'd laugh if you could just turn them off.
By the first rule (i.e. that Shadowrunners exist) you can throw this rule out.  There is no mechanic where RFID tags exist and work where they don't end the existence of Runners.  Just as a hint from 60 seconds thinking about it... RFID tags have been used in shoplifting prevention, all it takes is a sensor on the door that reads ammo coming into a building or area followed by armed response and Runners no longer exist.  By logical extension, that means that anyone who manufactures ammo must also share the RFID tag so that the other guys can look up the tag and track it but since runners take inter-corp jobs all the time that means that corps have a vested interest in not sharing RFIDs with their targets.  There is no world in which RFID works and runners exist.

Midnight Creeper and his crew are planning a run against a local Mitsuhama R&D lab. They have sourced Mitsuhama security outfits, proper Mitsuhama security equipment, and ammo. Creeper rewrites the RFIDs embedded in the various items based on Mitsuhama RFIDs he gleaned from the Matrix. When the time comes, the runners slip in, the door sensors registering the arrival of an expected Mitsuhama security detail (thanks to some tinkering Creeper did to the R&D labs schedule via the Matrix).

I think assuming that the corps would use off-the-shelf RFIDed ammo is shortsighted, I could totally see them RFIDing every round they purchase and using a custom internal ID, not only will that allow them to ID their own spent shells from intruders, it also makes inventory keeping easy. I mean, many if not all the corps keep track of their employees via the RFID in their clothing, thanks to dress codes. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same to even minor office supplies ("whoa, Tim, I'm going to have to ask you to leave that stylus in your pocket at the desk before you leave the building, it's corp property").
That's why you hack first to get your hands on the right IDs. Think "Yes, and...".
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: penllawen on (05:00:21/08-07-19)
Every GM started out as a rookie at some point. Rules should ideally be written to guide them to success not failure.
Totally agree.

And even one instance of a specific rule that violate this principle (like the RFID ammo topic at hand) has an effect that is magnified beyond those circumstances. Because if the rookie GM absorbs the philosophy behind it ("the players are walking a tightrope, and when they slip, I should punish them for it") then it'll blight the whole game, not just times when the runners buy ammo.

I dread to think how many times I fell into this trap as a novice GM myself. It feels like a very regressive, '80s/'90s bit of RPG game design.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:29:51/08-07-19)
It's a public rule. Not a hidden DMG that by secrecy suggests to a GM that they should be sneaky, but a public rule explaining consequences that can exist. The players will be aware of the rule and can decide with the GM how they're going to play it out. If you don't trust GMs, honestly, given how it's Shadowrun? You might as well throw out the entire book and walk away from the entire setting altogether. From 'Johnsons may betray runners', to 'the enemy you kill may have allies that get pissed at you in return', if you're worried a GM will not be able to handle it, then the entire Shadowrun setting is nothing but a trap. This individual rule is nothing but a blip, a mere molehill, not the mountain you're treating it as.

Bad GMs are universal. But a book explaining to both players and GMs what the consequences can be, is not something sinister that pollutes GM minds, it's a proper guide explaining that treason exists. The GM that unfairly throws that around is the problem, not the system that offers guidelines. Or is D&D broken for having traps, which GMs can use to completely wipe players? Is Vampire broken because a Mage can butcher an entire party? Nobody's shouting at D&D for Tomb of Horrors existing, so nobody should shout at Shadowrun for making clear to players and GMs alike that cased ammo is a liability.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Sendaz on (05:42:30/08-07-19)
I really don't see a prob with tagged ammo.  In previous edition they warned you of rid tags in your fragging candy bar after all. ;)

I admit this one is a bit sneakier as they don't broadcast until fired, but that's just something for the cops to help backtrack a crime when they get to a crime scene.

For regular joes on the street its a fact of life, Runners get to cheat and scrub stuff.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:45:14/08-07-19)
Incidentally: Page 231 is very clear on how GMs should not screw over players. Especially this part bears significance in this debate:

"Additionally, a GM is responsible for guiding the PCs through the game—not just with regard to the game plot or narrative, but also when it comes to game rules and concepts. [...] Or they may have forgotten an important rule that could have serious repercussions for them, their team, or even the adventure as a whole."
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (09:00:57/08-07-19)
Also, APDS is rarely made caseless (because the sabot shells are left lying around anyway). And since APDS decrease DV (if I understand it correctly game-mechanic-wise they are now basically just Flechette+) I'm not sure it will be so useful going forward anyway...
Everyone, hold the phone. APDS reduces damage now?
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Finstersang on (09:02:54/08-07-19)
I suspect Xenon meant the Defense Value (of the target), not them Damage Value.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (09:39:25/08-07-19)
Actually: Yes, APDS raises AR but decreases DV, just like Flechette Rounds and Stick-n-Shock.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Hobbes on (10:33:07/08-07-19)
Yes, the new "Standard load out" is Explosive Ammo as it raises DV. 
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (10:44:10/08-07-19)
Actually: Yes, APDS raises AR but decreases DV, just like Flechette Rounds and Stick-n-Shock.

So no one will use them.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (10:47:21/08-07-19)
I question the veracity of that statement.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: duckman on (11:33:04/08-07-19)
Midnight Creeper and his crew are planning a run against a local Mitsuhama R&D lab. They have sourced Mitsuhama security outfits, proper Mitsuhama security equipment, and ammo. Creeper rewrites the RFIDs embedded in the various items based on Mitsuhama RFIDs he gleaned from the Matrix. When the time comes, the runners slip in, the door sensors registering the arrival of an expected Mitsuhama security detail (thanks to some tinkering Creeper did to the R&D labs schedule via the Matrix).

I think assuming that the corps would use off-the-shelf RFIDed ammo is shortsighted, I could totally see them RFIDing every round they purchase and using a custom internal ID, not only will that allow them to ID their own spent shells from intruders, it also makes inventory keeping easy. I mean, many if not all the corps keep track of their employees via the RFID in their clothing, thanks to dress codes. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same to even minor office supplies ("whoa, Tim, I'm going to have to ask you to leave that stylus in your pocket at the desk before you leave the building, it's corp property").

Ok, so here's the problem with this scenario...  Why does Mitsuhama want to know about every bullet in use by every security guard in its employ?  I'm not asking about the rule mechanics or whether or not runners can deal with it.  Why the heck does Mitsuhama care?  In theory, the rules suggest that the goal is to know when a gun is fired (and this is actually totally bogus as a means of doing that when there are better tech and magic options for doing it in the SR setting anyway) but does this tell them that a gun was fired or does it tell them more and if it tells them more, then what can they learn from it (manufacturer, original owner, current owner?).  If circumventing this is so trivial that every go-ganger and flunky in the sprawl can do it then was it ever successful and why is it still in use?  Does knowing this stuff only for LoneStar and CorpSec guns matter and is it worth it?

Why are we wasting space on this in the rulebook?  Why are we simplifying the system by not only making ammo counting matter but by creating a new category of "whose tag is on the ammo" to count?

And finally, if it really works and works well and makes life hard for criminals and runners then it should be able to shut them down completely (it is, after all pretty omnipotent information) and if it doesn't work well to begin with why would any corp still be wasting money on it?  As a GM if you want it as a mechanic to use for deus ex machina then you don't care if it is in the rules in the first place.  There is just no situation in which this makes sense in the rules when viewed as a whole.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (11:46:09/08-07-19)
Ok, so here's the problem with this scenario...  Why does Mitsuhama want to know about every bullet in use by every security guard in its employ?  I'm not asking about the rule mechanics or whether or not runners can deal with it.  Why the heck does Mitsuhama care?

I can think of all kinds of reasons why it matters to RFID tag your guards' ammo.

Not only do you want to RFID tag each and every last thing the company owns in the event of it being stolen or lost, you also don't want guards getting any ideas about thinking they can get away with pilfering rounds out of their company-issued guns.

But since we're talking about ammo here, there's also the issue of after-action investigations. Knowing which casings are the ones left behind by your own guards helps immensely, especially if the guards died in the shootout and didn't have the good graces to file the paperwork prior to expiring.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: duckman on (11:58:17/08-07-19)
I can think of all kinds of reasons why it matters to RFID tag your guards' ammo.

Not only do you want to RFID tag each and every last thing the company owns in the event of it being stolen or lost, you also don't want guards getting any ideas about thinking they can get away with pilfering rounds out of their company-issued guns.

But since we're talking about ammo here, there's also the issue of after-action investigations. Knowing which casings are the ones left behind by your own guards helps immensely, especially if the guards died in the shootout and didn't have the good graces to file the paperwork prior to expiring.

Ok, as I understand it, that's actually not covered by the rules they wrote.  It would make sense but it is not covered (why is this wasting space in the rulebook).  And when did this game become about the GM managing inventory for CorpSec (this doesn't have anything to do with the runners so why is this in the rulebook again)?  And if you wanted to have the corp actually do good forensic analysis for your storyline isn't easier to just have an offline set of cameras?  Making use of tags in spent casings is actually easier to beat than simple security measures like offline cameras so we're back to why do we need this rule in a rulebook?

I'm not saying that I can't figure out ways to use this but I don't see it ever mattering to my players in a way that *they* need to have read it.  I mean...  I'm not going into how Dunkelzahn passes waste...  It has to be there but nobody cares.  Why is there a rule for this?
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:07:35/08-07-19)
Because if you take the MCT corpsec guard's ammo, both GM and Player are aware that all those rounds are traced. Unless/until the PC takes the time to sanitize them.  (which may, of course, complicate the progress of the shadowrun that ended up putting the PC in proximity with MCT corpsec in the first place)
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (12:08:22/08-07-19)
The only rule involved in the rfid bullets, is that itís a threshold 2 to wipe them. Thatís it. Otherwise itís a small paragraph in a sidebar about yet one more way the corps try to control and own every single little thing, no matter how small or insignificant.

There is not rule in how much info it broadcasts, the signal strength, how to tell if someone is listening for it, nothing. It reads like a small fluff ammo-related fluff piece with a single stat for the inevitable question that will come up if mentioned in game.

 Also, we already had RFID tagged gear, and matrix ownership link to equipment since fourth edition. This issue isnít new, itís just showed up in a new place.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: jtnlange on (12:28:55/08-07-19)
I'll be honest. Kinda figured that the Corps were doing this already, so not really a big deal to me. Just handwave the wiping unless there is a specific reason why it may not have happened.

Trevor L.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: PiXeL01 on (12:31:48/08-07-19)
All ammo on the black market would be wiped anyway. So would all gear used by shadowrunners by default (and that should be mentioned somewhere)
Itís just another reason why not to knock over arms transports.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (14:54:32/08-07-19)
I question the veracity of that statement.
Why would anyone ever armor-piercing ammo that reduces DV when armor does nothing? Even if the armor piercing is a bigger number than the damage reduction, big whoop, sometimes I get edge on an attack when I wouldn't have with normal ammo. My damage went down by a significant percentage and my target's soak pool, to which that damage was balanced, hasn't gotten any smaller.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:47:12/08-07-19)
What are you saying Ghost Rigger?

Are you thinking that in a system that limits the number of Edge points gained in one round to 2, and a system that it sounds like it will be relatively easy to ensure a character gains at least 3 Edge a round (via Qualities and Gear / Augs) without counting on tactical choices, that no one would be willing to reduce their damage output just to gain another Edge point they probably can't use or keep?

Ppee-sshaaww!!!

;)
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Hephaestus on (22:04:06/08-07-19)
I just re-read that section in CRB6, and the "inventory tracking" argument is incorrect. It says the tags don't activate until fired, so they wouldn't be able to read them until they were fired. It also says it alerts the authorities, so they project their signal quite a bit.

Those things in mind, I can think of a lot of useful/infuriating things for Runners to do.
- As mentioned, spoofing the gun ownership can make it really easy to frame someone.
   - Also, stealing a group's specific ammo to attack that same group with to make it look like an inside job.
- Tracking an injured mark with your own RFID scanner.
- Spraying randomly in all directions over a large area to force "the local authorities" to have to comb over blocks and blocks of urban sprawl to figure out where all the fragging signals are coming from. Collateral damage aside, this sounds like it would also create noise issues for matrix users.
- Setting up single-shot weapons to fire on timers to make a breadcrumb trail for someone to follow.

More likely though, my group will just get out the magic marker and make the rule go away.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: duckman on (22:22:51/08-07-19)
The problem, Hephaestus, is that what you are saying is not accurate for what they have written or not accurate for what the words they wrote mean (i.e. they wrote something stupid).

RFID *is* always on.  What they described in the rules is not RFID in the real world or in any prior ruleset I am aware of.  I think the use of the term RFID is a poor choice here but then I would say the same thing about half the rulebook.
The tag they describe is in the shell casing (not the actual bullet) and I believe that guns were already tagged so this is only saying tagged bullets are new.  It means that you don't have a tag-round (although, again, I believe that already exists in the system).
The rules don't actually say anything about tags showing ownership (although it would be hard for me not to imagine it including that information).

What they want is a bullet that self-reports down to the CSI office/LoneStar.  That's better done by invoking other tech (like acoustics) or magic (since I can imagine a simple ritual that could be built out over time).

Your ideas are not bad ones but they are equally easy to accomplish without tagged bullets...  There are plenty of other computer tags including simply spoofing a SIN or clothing or what have you.  The tag-round already exists.  A rampaging spirit would require just as much investigation and an armed response as well.  Why write something so bad to accomplish something that could be done much more easily within the system to begin with?
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: BeCareful on (23:19:08/08-07-19)
A thought occurs: has stealing ammo from corpsec/civilians been a major thing? Because that sounds like a thing that this would fix. My presumption was that everyone has tags in their clips/mags registered to their SINs, and that the actions to remove empty ones involved putting them back in pockets or something, so scrounging ammo off of dead people wouldn't really be necessary unless you didn't actually conserve ammo.

Also, I'm aware that caseless ammo, in real life, has problems that make them less reliable. I just figured that there was an unstated presumption that the future would have advances in them that rendered them a GM hand-wave.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Cabral on (21:09:45/08-12-19)
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.
Michael Chandra,
You seem to stretching to support every argument in defense of the 6e rules, at least in this thread. I have always gotten the impression of you through the forums as a level headed and even person so I hope that I am not mischaracterizing your responses.

However, I have to call out this post. If there is a piece of gear, a build option, or other decision point that everyone will choose, that points to a clear flaw in the design of the choices. This rule has no place in a core rulebook aiming to streamline the experience. At best, this belongs as an optional rule in the gun book.

I don't have the rulebook yet so I will have to rely on others to determine how likely players are to miss the rule.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (21:36:38/08-12-19)
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.
Michael Chandra,
You seem to stretching to support every argument in defense of the 6e rules, at least in this thread. I have always gotten the impression of you through the forums as a level headed and even person so I hope that I am not mischaracterizing your responses.

However, I have to call out this post. If there is a piece of gear, a build option, or other decision point that everyone will choose, that points to a clear flaw in the design of the choices. This rule has no place in a core rulebook aiming to streamline the experience. At best, this belongs as an optional rule in the gun book.

I don't have the rulebook yet so I will have to rely on others to determine how likely players are to miss the rule.

There is mention of it at the start of the Firearms section, and a small sidebar in the ammo section. The only hard rule mentioned in all of it is that erasing the micro-RFID in bullets is a 1 minute interval extended Electronics roll with a threshold of 2 per 10 rounds. All else is fluff and mentions that the RFID activates when fired and seems to either (in the sidebar) send up a ping to a local law enforcement (whatever your definition of local is), or (in the Firearms section opening) simply records location and gun information from when it was fired.

As GM you can utilize either of these options, or both, as you need/want to throw a monkey wrench into the runners careful plans or as setup to a Johnson betraying them. Something for the more Trench-coat style games were such things would be more commonplace.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: skalchemist on (15:58:35/08-26-19)
This is a pretty clear example the Oberoni Fallacy, or at least a variant of it I can't remember the name of.
If I only learned one thing from this thread, it was there was a name for a thing I had always known about but didn't know had a name, the "Oberoni Fallacy".  Thanks for that, Dezmont, that's a useful thing!
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Basic on (15:57:26/08-30-19)
Personally after reading it. I feel like this idea that Corps are using RFID's to know who is shooting at them is asking for trouble.

Guys don't erase the tags hack them and make them say someone else is shooting them maybe the cops to make them kill each other.

Remember every point of control is a point of manipulation you can employ
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Giabralter on (22:40:45/08-30-19)
It almost sounds like my character's modified panther cannon. If it gets used, it dials 911. Because if I resort to using it, somebody is going to need help.  ;D
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (16:19:53/08-31-19)
It almost sounds like my character's modified panther cannon. If it gets used, it dials 911. Because if I resort to using it, somebody is going to need help.  ;D

Hello, DocWaggon? Yíall might want to get over here cause this guy pissed me off and then had a REALLY bad day.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (09:03:03/09-01-19)
Personally after reading it. I feel like this idea that Corps are using RFID's to know who is shooting at them is asking for trouble.

Guys don't erase the tags hack them and make them say someone else is shooting them maybe the cops to make them kill each other.

Remember every point of control is a point of manipulation you can employ
"Why commit a perfect crime when you could frame someone instead?" Yeah, I see no possible way this could backfire horribly.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (09:58:56/09-01-19)
About the only reason I can think to not erase it is in a very black trench coat campaign where you are disguised as security and you need to make sure even your ammos rfid tags match your disguise because they do check to that level of detail.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: penllawen on (10:03:32/09-01-19)
I also like the idea of using it as a plot point (ďyour mission is to steal ammo from Corp X and then use it to do <something> so we can obfuscate who did itĒ).
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: BeCareful on (00:39:36/09-02-19)
This bit also makes me wonder if looting ammo was ever an endemic problem. It could certainly stop people from pausing their violent exfiltration in order to go through corpsec's pockets, but I don't know if that happened often in Missions play or something.
Title: Re: SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing
Post by: Michael Chandra on (02:07:59/09-02-19)
I know I once stole armor and had its ownership changed in SRM. Because chemical-sealed FBA was impossible to get at that time. But I never saw the need to steal ammo, especially since I used sniper rifles, not automatics.