Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:45:32/07-10-19)

Title: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:45:32/07-10-19)
Ask ten different people what the role, purpose, or “shtick” of a Rigger is, and you’ll get at least two different answers.  It is likely, you will get about four or five.  The two primary ones though, will be “wheelman” or team pilot, and “drone bunny.”

As of this writing, I am only privy to the 5e rules.  From the little revealed to date, it looks like this will carry over to Sixth World (6e) as well, but I can not be certain of that.

There are three primary pillars of Shadowrun game play.  Naturally, game play is not limited to these pillars, but excursions beyond them are novelties at best.  The three pillars are:  Combat, Legwork, and Negotiations.  For the purposes of this post, recon falls under Legwork, and any social interaction falls under Negotiation.


Let’s start with the “wheelman.”  There are three main modes of piloting in Shadowrun, manual or “meatspace,” remote, and Jumped In.

Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger
   In earlier editions, there was no remote or Jumped In piloting.  In those editions the Rigger’s Control Rig gave mechanical bonuses to meatspace piloting.  When the editions changed Rigging to a Matrix offshoot, all meatspace bonuses were taken away.  Now, any bonuses are only Matrix based.
   That means that any Initiative based character (typically Street Sams and Adepts, though Mages can be as well) can out pilot a Rigger when only comparing meatspace abilities.
   What is worse, those bonuses the Initiative based character gets carry over into combat.
Remote PilotingWash
   For this discussion, Jumped In does not count as Remote Piloting.
   The Rigger doesn’t gain anything in Remote Piloting that others do not.  What is worse, is the Initiative based characters mentioned earlier can use that same initiative in AR to match a Rigger in Remote Piloting.
Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   This is the only area where the Rigger shines.  Not because they are better than any other character in this regard, simply because no other character can even entertain the notion of Jumped In Piloting.
   In 5e, the primary benefit of being Jumped In is reduced Thresholds for Piloting tests.  These are nice, but had the backhanded effect of reducing the usefulness of large piloting pools for Riggers.  In 5e, there are no opposed Piloting rolls (other than whatever the GM makes up), and you are only rolling against the environment.  That makes sense from a simulationist point of view.  When combined with the fact that the Pilot usually chooses the environment they want to be in, that means that most of the time the Rigger gets to set the Threshold.
   Outside of chases and vehicle combat, there isn’t a need for more than 1 net hit on a piloting roll.
   Inside chases and vehicle combat the effects of rolls are restricted by the vehicles Acceleration.  This isn’t a proper Limit, so the Control Rig doesn’t modify it at all.  It also means that there is very rarely any need for more than 3 or 4 net hits, making Piloting pools above 9 or 12 dice less than ideal.

For the wheelman, their abilities only come into play when the GM deems it possible.  Vehicle combats are fairly rare, as they fall outside the “typical” idea of a Shadowrun – slip into some building/facility, and do your nefarious deed, and slip out unnoticed.  Piloting doesn’t add to Negotiations at all.  Its usefulness in Legwork is typically limited to drivebys and then it takes a back seat to Perception and other rolls.  And it isn’t intrinsic to the Combat Pillar, unless the GM (or more likely Rigger player) force the issue in some way.


Now for the “drone bunny.”  For reference, the drone bunny role is someone that has an over abundance of drones, and looks to use them for every obstacle.

Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger
   In 5e Drones can accept voice commands.  As with the wheelman role, Initiative based characters excel at issuing commands to drones at a faster rate than the Rigger.
Remote PilotingWash
   Just like in the wheelman role, there is no advantage to a Rigger remote piloting over any other character, and loses out in AR to Initiative based characters.
Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   Also like the wheelman role, Riggers are the only ones capable of Jumping In to a vehicle.  In 5e, this is where the Rigger really stands out.  Not from the mechanical benefits of a Control Rig, no.  Simply by nature of the fact that they can use their own skills through a drone when Jumped In.  That makes them kind of useful in the Legwork Pillar, however given their built-in fragility and the ghastly repair costs in 5e it kind of removes their usefulness in the Combat Pillar.  I mean, is there any other Archetype that has to pay a months rent (or more) per box of damage repaired?

It is easier to bring the Rigger abilities into play as a drone bunny.  However, how rewarding those uses are is highly dependent on the table you play at.  Noise can ruin any drone use, how much it is used is at the sole discretion of the GM.  From a utility standpoint, drone bunnies can shine in the Legwork Pillar.  They are useless in the Negotiation Pillar, and their usefulness in the Combat Pillar is dubious at best.  That is because the drone bunny Rigger can’t bring anything to Combat that a character otherwise designed for combat can, and the other characters will have better heal/repair costs.  It should be noted that this disparity is claimed to have been addressed in Sixth World (6e).
In fact, with the exception of Jumped In drone piloting, it is better for just about any other character who is willing to spend the money and skill points to be the drone bunny.  Unlike with the Rigger, the other Archetypes can do their normal stuff on top of supplementing with drones where the Rigger only really has the drones.  ((Example:  Spirit Army Mage with an RCC and swarm of combat drones.  On top of all that, they can sling spells as well.))

In conclusion, the other Archetypes are defined by where they shine.  Riggers are defined by where they suck.  They have some tiny slices of the game they shine in, however those slices are not intrinsic to the stock Shadowrun play.  This leaves them uniquely at the mercy of the GM as to if they even bring anything to the table.  The rest of the time, Riggers are mediocre at best, and suboptimal usually.

I await the Shadowrun edition that has someone who cares about Riggers doing some writing.  Then maybe this Archetype can get some decent play.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Beta on (16:02:43/07-10-19)
Or maybe Rigger, as an archetype, is just a poor fit for traditional ShadowRun games?  Perhaps it would be better to make driving and drone activities more available as sidelines for other types, similar to how hacking went in fourth edition?

Although as a general rule I don't need any more 'pets' in combat, there is enough rolling as it is.  Maybe I'll warm up to drones more under 6th edition rules if they really do streamline things.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (17:06:02/07-10-19)
If your Rigger is "Losing" even while Manually piloting to someone who isn't a Rigger you're doing it wrong.

Rigger's should have higher Piloting skills, and maxed out Reaction.  They'll win Chase tests and vehicle tests by miles over other characters.  And there isn't any mechanical reason for Riggers to have low initiative.  Unless the GM has taken away the Rigger's vehicles and stuck them in some kind of Throw Back Vehicle, they should be right up there with the Samurai in initiative. 

And before you say "Hacker", I give you the Internal Router and just plug into your Wireless off vehicle.  And say "hello" to the cheap ass +5 Sleaze from Smoke and Mirrors, along with 3 source books of Matrix upgrades that should make your RCC and Drones essentially invisible on the Matrix.

Now, are Vehicle Riggers utilized fully on every run?  No.  Very difficult to set that up for most GMs.  Most of the time a Rigger is a Drone handler and bus driver, in that order.  Vehicles are overcosted for what value they offer in most runs.  You'll spend 75K on a fancy car, and use it every 5th run if you're lucky.  That is really the Rigger's problem.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (17:13:26/07-10-19)
Spirits are OP.

Any magician able to summon spirits beats a Rigger at the Driving game and the Pet Class game simultaneously.

And of course unique to 5e is the Edgelord, who beats Riggers at driving unless the chase is artificially extended by GM fiat.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Marcus on (17:28:47/07-10-19)
I get the pet class for sure but why driving? Some kind of travel based spirit power?

Part of being the rigger is having the vehicle, lets also keep in mind, that doesn't necessarily translate to sports car. The decker stays in the Van. It's was a van for a reason.   I agree that expectation hasn't translated forward across 4th and 5th edition.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (17:36:06/07-10-19)
Yeah the Movement power from a high force spirit not only wins chase tests, it renders vehicles unnecessary in the first place.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (17:57:57/07-10-19)
Well, yeah, the Movement Power is broken as are Spirits in general.  I'm not sure any Shadowrun balance discussion goes by without "Well Spirits can...."   

And Riggers can Edge too, but they should rarely need to on vehicle tests.  And you can argue that the 7 Edge Human build can out do any other mundane character.  7 times per run anyway.    :P

From a Metagame perspective I could see a team going with a Edgelord and a couple ranks in piloting as the wheelman since chases and vehicle tests come up rarely. 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (18:51:40/07-10-19)
You know Hobbes, every time you post about Riggers in Shadowrun you prove, time and time again, that you have never, ever, eeevvveeerrrrrr played a Rigger in Shadowrun.  At least not without some house rules that fix Riggers pretty handily.

Let me address a couple of your points.

Riggers shouldn't have lower initiatives when piloting.
    I take it that was in response to my comparison of Riggers versus other characters in meatspace piloting?  Then how do you explain Riggers even coming close to Street Sams / Adepts / sometimes Mages with Reaction + Intuition + 1D6?  Do you suggest the character spend resources not on vehicles or drones, but on low level Wired Reflexes to squeeze in next to their Control Rig?  Or are you suggesting the Rigger is in VR, in which case said Rigger can't be meatspace piloting, can she?

Riggers should drive donuts around others in vehicle chases / combat.
    That is the lie of someone who hasn't grasped the rules for vehicle chases / combats.  Lets take one Bad Ass Rigger (BAR for short) with a dice pool of over 9000!!!!  And pit BAR up against Gutter Punk (GP for short).  For this example we will give BAR a Control Rig 3, and GP is a Street Sam with Wired Reflexes 2.  Let us also say that GP either aspires to be in a go-gang, or is already a part of one.  Reaction 8 (with WR) and a Piloting with specialization of 7 to give a pool of 15.
    Now, let's put them in a chase.  It doesn't matter who is chasing who...  Hell, we will call it a race, with whoever pulls away first is the winner.  In that case, the environment is almost certainly a Speed environment.  We will put BAR in a "classic" rigger vehicle of a Bulldog Step Van with a stock Acceleration (don't worry, we will fix that later).  GP with be on a Yamaha Rapier.
    If you are right, BAR with a dice pool of over 9000!!!! should be able to win this race handily, yes?
    Each of them make their piloting rolls and cap them at Speed (+3 for BAR) and then.....  Only move a number of Range Bands up to their vehicles Acceleration.
    BAR only moves 1 Range Band.  GP moves, well assuming average roll with a Threshold of one or two, 3 Range Bands.
    Each and every IP, save 1 for a control test.  Even with the extra die for BAR, losing on average 2 Range Bands per IP and only making up one or two by the end of the round means BAR gets smoked.

Lets upgrade the Bulldog Step Van to max Acceleration now.  3.  Three is the max, so the max shall be three.

    Even in this case, BAR doesn't drive donuts around GP.  Through attrition, if the race is long enough, BAR squeaks out a victory.

    Alright, how about if we bump BAR up to something more serious?  I am going from memory, but I am pretty sure no ground vehicle has a stock Acceleration of over 3.  Max'ed out it would be 5.
    In this case, BAR would certainly win.  Even so, it won't be so obvious as to be like driving donuts around GP.  It would be a definetive victory, however.

And to be clear, the restriction of Acceleration isn't a proper Limit, so not only can the Control Rig not modify it - Edge can't push it either.


Or maybe Rigger, as an archetype, is just a poor fit for traditional ShadowRun games?  Perhaps it would be better to make driving and drone activities more available as sidelines for other types, similar to how hacking went in fourth edition?

Although as a general rule I don't need any more 'pets' in combat, there is enough rolling as it is.  Maybe I'll warm up to drones more under 6th edition rules if they really do streamline things.

At this point I would not cry if Riggers were just completely removed.  And this is coming from a player who routinely plays Riggers.  I keep waiting for them to be shown the love they deserve, and they keep getting  put in the corner.  Sometimes with Dunce caps on.  ;)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (22:15:17/07-10-19)
Riggers can pump Reaction / Intuition the same way everyone else can.  Riggers should also be in AR or VR for the Bonus dice.  Should be hitting 21+ for 3 Actions just like every other character.  Why would a Rigger be in Meat Space, simply no reason.  It's like saying a Decker without the Matrix ain't that great.  Well duh. 

And Bulldog v Rapier?  Maybe, don't bring a Van to a Bike Race?  Just a thought. 

Does a Rigger's investment in Vehicles and Driving skills pay off like a Samurai's combat or a Mages Spell slinging?  Not at any table I've played at because vehicle tests are uncommon at best.  I don't think anyone would dispute that.  But to say anyone can out drive a Rigger is silly. 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (00:23:36/07-11-19)
Since my point is still not finding purchase, let me spell it out.

Unless you, as a player, know your table and / or know your GM, and know, really know that there will be any rewarding activity as a Rigger...

You are much better off making another character Archetype and invest points into Piloting or Nuyen into drones and an RCC.

That way you get nearly all of the benifits of a Rigger (look ma!  I can drive!) without any of the drawbacks (your character will have other areas they are innately good at with their "primary" Archetype).

I strongly recommend you actually try playing Riggers for a campaign (at least 20 sessions) with RAW before you make any ignorant claims that what others say is silly.  It will serve you well Hobbes.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: mcv on (07:08:53/07-11-19)
The real question isn't how a rigger in meatspace performs against a street sam in meatspace, or how they both perform jumped in, but it's how a jumped-in rigger performs against a vehicle-oriented street sam in meatspace. Does being jumped-in provide meaningful bonuses? Because if a wired street sam can still keep up with a rigger there, then rigging is pointless.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (07:13:32/07-11-19)
I'm sincerely sorry that your GM doesn't make your Rigger feel valued.  That's terrible.  As a GM Riggers are the most difficult AT to work in to a run in a meaningful way, even if you're creating your own runs.  Spotlight moments for a Rigger are few and far between, and many of those moments are simply "Did someone bring a vehicle with X feature?" 

I can tell you the challenge to the GM has been the same for all 5 (now 6) editions.  The Rigger PC has a very expensive, very fragile, and totally essential part of their character that is risked every time the GM puts a challenge up for the Rigger.  The repair rules have either been punitive, or non-existant, depending on where you are in an editions life-cycle.  Handing out free disposable sports cars and killer robot armies to the Rigger player risks alienating the other players.  And Car Wars arenas and chase scenes often leave other players sidelined, and can be insta-won by Spirits and Hackers anyway.  It's an extremely tricky mark to hit as a GM. 

Talk with your GM and other players about your expectations.  That's really all you can do. 

As an aside, the best Rigger concept I've seen work for a Shadowrun was a car thief.  Steal a car, trash a car, leave a car, repeat.  Doesn't scratch that Car Wars itch though. 

Best of luck!

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (07:25:27/07-11-19)
The real question isn't how a rigger in meatspace performs against a street sam in meatspace, or how they both perform jumped in, but it's how a jumped-in rigger performs against a vehicle-oriented street sam in meatspace. Does being jumped-in provide meaningful bonuses? Because if a wired street sam can still keep up with a rigger there, then rigging is pointless.


A racing bike beats a mini-van in a drag race.  A mage on a Skateboard beats them both.  Who wins a drag race isn't really the important question because Shadowrunners don't have drag Races.  What capabilities does a Rigger bring to the team that another character doesn't, how much does it cost a Rigger, what are the risk/reward factors that a Rigger PC faces...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (08:59:35/07-11-19)
The real question isn't how a rigger in meatspace performs against a street sam in meatspace, or how they both perform jumped in, but it's how a jumped-in rigger performs against a vehicle-oriented street sam in meatspace. Does being jumped-in provide meaningful bonuses? Because if a wired street sam can still keep up with a rigger there, then rigging is pointless.
(Emphasis is mine alone.)

As my contrived race example above shows, the Rigger isn't allowed to be be better because of the vehicle rules.  The benefits of the Control Rig simply allow the Rigger to max out the use of net hits easier than someone else in the same situation (assuming they can roll enough net hits to also max out their use).

Let me reword things a bit.

The typical "classic" Rigger vehicles, such as the Bulldog and the Roadmaster, all have a stock Acceleration of 1.  I'm picking these vehicles as they are the ones that are large enough to tote a team and their gear (Unless we are talking about an "undersized" group of three or less runners).

In that case, if a Rigger's Pilot pool is greater than about 6 dice, that is a waste of resources.  That is Attribute and Skill points that would be better served being put somewhere else.  If the Rigger spent nuyen on Reaction Enhancers?  They were a sucker and could have used that cash on something else.

In short, if your Piloting pool is greater than ((Threshold + Acceleration) * 3) that is "wasted" dice.

A Control Rig reduces the Threshold by an amount equal to it's rating, making rolls easier for the Rigger.  It has the added "benefit" of reducing the amount of dice that can be used effectively.



On top of that, all security vehicles designed to intercept and overcome in a pursuit have a stock Acceleration of 3.  That means it is almost impossible* to out run them if your team has the "soccer van" no matter who is driving.

Even if the "soccer van" has it's Acceleration maxed out - by the way, it still isn't clear if you must purchase the Level 1 Increase and then the Level 2 increase, or if you can skip Level 1 and just install the Level 2... - that will bring the vehicle chase down to who has the better Initiative (number of IP).  It also relies on the the Security Interceptor not having its Acceleration modded as well.
As long as the Wired Up Street Sam has a similar Initiative to the Rigger and has enough of a die pool to roll Threshold + 3 Net Hits reliably, they are just as good as a Rigger in that regard, no matter what the Rigger has as a Piloting Pool.
And they get to carry their Archetype bonus into combat, which a Rigger can't really do.

*The only way a stock "soccer van" can outrun a Security Interceptor is if the Security driver can't roll enough (3) Net Hits reliably, and / or can't get more than one IP per turn.  In other words, the Security driver can't drive...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Banshee on (09:17:12/07-11-19)
seems to me that you actually think the issue is the vehicle rules and not riggers themselves. every scenario and example you have provided has shown that riggers are the hands down the masters of their domain (which is jumped in control) ... so the problem is the limits of what the vehicle rules put on things

on that note my personal experience from 30 years of GM'ing SR is that I have had less than probably a dozen scenes where vehicles were the primary limiting factor, it chase scene is more often limited by the environment where piloting check to avoid crashing and positioning is WAY more important than simple acceleration checks ... and nobody can do that better than a jumped in rigger
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (09:23:11/07-11-19)
seems to me that you actually think the issue is the vehicle rules and not riggers themselves. every scenario and example you have provided has shown that riggers are the hands down the masters of their domain (which is jumped in control) ... so the problem is the limits of what the vehicle rules put on things

A Rigger is only as good as the vehicle rules allow them to be.


on that note my personal experience from 30 years of GM'ing SR is that I have had less than probably a dozen scenes where vehicles were the primary limiting factor, it chase scene is more often limited by the environment where piloting check to avoid crashing and positioning is WAY more important than simple acceleration checks ... and nobody can do that better than a jumped in rigger

Then you may very well be a Good GM.  Too bad that can't be guaranteed for every other player in the world...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Wakshaani on (11:30:28/07-11-19)
Interesting stuff thusfar.

SO, questions …

1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?

5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?

6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?

9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

(I might be the biggest Rigger fan on the team, currently, but I know there are tons more out there. Talk to me! I'm more than happy to listen in. Keep in mind, I'm more interested in direction than pure mechanics as the switch from 5E to 6E is going to turn things sideways here or there and some older examples might not hold up.)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:44:05/07-11-19)
SO, questions …

I can give you some answers.  In case it isn't clear, I do not pretend these answers apply to everyone.  Just myself.

1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

The single most needed improvement is to give the Rigger a clearly defined role.  This is mostly to allow rules authors to know how to apply rules to advance that role.
I admit, I am an "old school" Rigger.  I prefer the wheelman role because that is all there was.  I also do not like the Rigger being shoe horned into drone bunny.
All of that is irrelevant if the Rigger has a clear role for the game, even if it is to be drone bunny.  Let me, as well as the authors, know that the Rigger should be focused on "X" and in the end it doesn't really matter what "X" is.

I haven't read the rest of your questions in depth yet, but each of the ones I skimmed will revolve around this.

2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Tough question to answer, as this is really a per-table basis.  From my experience vehicle chases are practically non-existent.  This was true even in the earlier editions before drone bunnies.
I am pretty sure that is because of two things:  1)  Vehicle chases don't fit into the "typical" idea of a shadowrun.  The only time they might matter is when the team screws up.  And then... 2)  All of the GMs I have run under assume the Rigger is king of the road and pretty much handwave everything.

Pretty much turning the Rigger into a piece of gear.  Have one?  Great!  We move on.  Don't have one?  Better tune up your combat monsters, your getting even more play time!

I honestly can't see how to increase the occurence of vehicle chases without torquing off GMs everywhere.  "What do you mean I am supposed to have the team make a Piloting check to get to the meet?!?"

My best answer is to not rely on vehicle chases at all.  And I am well aware that takes the Rigger out of my preferred role and pretty much shoe horns them into drone bunnies...

3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

As of 5e, drones are not strong at all.  Using sensors is just a Perception test where the rolling character has the choice of using the Sensor Rating as a Limit, and can use Electronic Warfare instead of Perception.
Most of my Riggers end up with a Mental Limit of 9, so "using sensors" doesn't benefit them at all.

Drones are weak in nearly every area.  They are too expensive to be disposable, and yet too difficult to make tough enough to really survive combat.  (I am in a current game where the GM insists on using the vehicle modding rules instead of the drone rules.  That means tiny armor values...)
Other than maneuverability, which isn't accounted for in the rules anywhere, drones do not bring anything to the table really that any other prepared character can.  I know that people will bring up size, and ability to traverse ducts and such.  Between that requiring that the technologically advanced future can not have appropriate sensors to detect that, and that they still can't access anything a well prepared infiltrator can't, they do not have any real strengths.

I take that back.  They do provide one strength:  The ability to provide eyes "on the fly."  Even though the rules do not really reflect that, drones are capable of moving a camera-analog to where they can be used the most.
This can be done by a Hacker as well, depending on the security setup and how dedicated the Hacker player is to massaging the Matrix rules and / or how much the GM handwaves said rules.
It does bring up how lacking info-sharing rules work.  I mean, as presented, 5e almost reads as if PiTac is required to share info...

4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?

I answered this earlier, but I'll reiterate.  I prefer a focus on vehicles, due almost entirely on nostalgia.  I acknowledge that they should probably focus on drones instead.  There is more chance of being useful in most games that way.

5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?

Another nostalgia laced answer from me.  For me, it would be meatspace.  Hands down.

I also acknowledge that particular toothpaste isn't getting back in the tube.  With Riggers being Matrix "born" now, they need better Matrix rules.
From what some have said, that could be addressed in 6e.  I am hopeful that they are no longer the blind, crippled sheep in a world of wolves (hackers).

6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

A very good, and personal question.  I don't mean that as in "off limits," but as in "I doubt any two people could ever have the same answer."

For me, it resonates with my personality.  I am a tinkerer, a hacker (not as in Black Hat / White Hat, but as in I will mod my devices to do what I want them to), a technophile.  I am also talented at driving.  I can't claim racing qualifications, but I am a machine operator (forktrucks, back hoes, cranes and such).

There is no other Archetype that even comes close to matching that in Shadowrun...  Well, maybe the Deckmeister.  However they have usually been relegated to NPCs.

7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

For me, is never really getting a chance to shine.  I'm not egotistical.  I have had, on more than one occasion, in-character questions of "what do you do again?" posed to my Riggers.  I have to go out of my way to build my Riggers to be able to be passable in every area - just to get "table time" - and as a result there is always a character that out performs the Rigger in every situation.

Most of that is douchebag players, I admit.  I don't take it personally myself.  It does have me wondering how do other Rigger players handle it though?  How long does it take someone else to say "why am I playing a character that I have to fight hard to make mediocre in every aspect, when I can much more easily make a character that shines in one?"

8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?

Short answer?  Either, not the worst of both that it is now.

Longer answer:  For my ideal "tinkerer" Rigger, it would be expensive and durable.  If we need cheap and disposable, we have things like tags for that.

9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

For the most part, they cost too much for how often they play a role.  Technically, they are used all the time - just "off camera."  Investing 50K+ nuyen for words on a page stings more than a little.

Repair costs also make players less inclined to use them.  I have to reiterate that it has been claimed that 6e addresses this.

And in spite of Hobbes saying "steal a car," that is insanely very far outside of a Riggers Archetype in 5e.

10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

If they can't outshine other characters in a regular part of game play, then they require something unique about what they do.  It doesn't have to OMGPowerfull, just something that isn't a different word to describe what other characters do.

As an example, even though you stipulated that mechanics are not what you are looking for:

If the Control Rig (in 5e, for clarification) had an added benefit of giving the Rigger "phantom" ranks in Piloting equal to its rating.  This would save the Rigger some points being spread out and give the cybered pilot the "That?  Yeah, I can pilot that" vibe that no one else really has.
If it also counted as Reception Enhancers to reflect the fact that the Rigger is adept and instinctively processing multiple streams of data all at the same time from their experience being the machine.

It wouldn't hurt if the Control Rig did something when not Jumped In so that the Rigger wasn't Joe Public, Wageslave when not attached to a machine.  I'm not expecting Street Sam level, of course.  Just...  Anything so that Rigger players do not feel like bystanders when their shtick isn't deliberately incorporated into the game so they can feel "useful" to the table.

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (13:16:29/07-11-19)
I'm not the OP, but I've got certain philosophically compatible viewpoints.

Interesting stuff thusfar.

SO, questions …

1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

Being able to effectively use the matrix in ways beyond Jumping In. They don't have to poach on Deckers' turf (they've already got TMs for that) but they're the natural candidate for who should be breaking into cars, hacking traffic lights, etc.


But still... I don't agree that "other than nerfing mages" is ever going to fix the problem.  Nerfing spirits is absolutely necessary if riggers are EVER going to be relevant.  Not unless drones are ever going to be as powerful as spirits.  And that's also probably no good for the game.

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2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Over the past 2 years, the entirety of my exposure to SR play has been CMPs and SRMs. It's a small pond of regulars, and I'm one of 2 gms for that circle.  Which means I always have the same GM.  Who's not at all comfortable with the vehicle rules.  So... basically there never are vehicle chases.  Not unless it's SRM 9-04 where one is literally written in as the climax of the run and you'd have to go way off the rails to NOT have the chase.

But TBH I don't think it's a GM issue.  The issue with chase scenes is winning one with a rigger is essentially doing it the hard way.  Chases are always resolved by someone putting a spirit in the other car and killing everyone inside.  Or the hacker bricking the other car.  Or the sammie blowing the other car up.

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3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

Strong: Recon.  But completely outclassed by spirits just floating around in astral.
Weak: Combat. And that's terrible because fire support is supposed to be a big plus.  Why are they weak? They have all the glass and none of the cannon of "Glass Cannon".  Unless the rigger is jumped in, a drone's dice pool is bunk compared to a min/max'd sammie/gun bunny.  Using rockets/grenades is all drones can compete in, and that's because you're shooting against a static threshhold of 3 and it doesn't matter anymore if your dice pool is only 12-14.

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4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
I like that there's two available fields of specialization, which also gives a third "hybrid focus" option as well.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
Ever since 1e's Shadowbeat, I've always wanted Rigging to work while you're swinging around a melee weapon from the back of a motorcycle, but that ship has long since sailed.  I'm comfortable with Riggers being matrix specialists.  Physical driving can be what non-riggers do to try to compete.  Hopefully, only TRY to compete.

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?
The gear porn. The customization.
Plus, a transporter simply SHOULD be a niche that's as useful (read: necessary) as a hacker to have around in a cyberpunk kind of game.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?
Everything a Rigger does is either moot, or done better by a non-rigger.

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8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
Why not have both options available?  In 5e, my Riggers (I have two.. one for Chicago and one for Neo-Tokyo) both use swarms of cheap drones rather than investing in mega-expensive juggernauts.  A) Mega-expensive juggernauts are still pure junk statwise (Unless they're vehicles) and B) why put all eggs in one basket

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?
It's completely inappropriate that Riggers pay for parts when fixing their toys when sammies and deckers do not.

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10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

(I might be the biggest Rigger fan on the team, currently, but I know there are tons more out there. Talk to me! I'm more than happy to listen in. Keep in mind, I'm more interested in direction than pure mechanics as the switch from 5E to 6E is going to turn things sideways here or there and some older examples might not hold up.)

I think a mature archetype doesn't have an ideal form.  What's the ideal mage look like?  The ideal sammie?

What I tend to do is have multiple vehicles, only one of which is expensive.  (My Chicago pirate has a wrecking ball of a Roadmaster yrzed out as a Pirate Ship, my NT street racer has his sports car decked out as a WWII fighter plane colors in homage to his other favorite pastimes: playing matrix MMOs). Then there's very lightly modded Americars or Gophers for when you want to move runners around in subtle manner. 

I use lots of drones rather than big expensive drones because it's cheaper to replace cheap than pay to repair expensive, and duplicate models of the same drone can share relevant autosofts anyway via the RCC.  AND ignore the pilot value cap on autosoft ratings... since not upgrading pilot is a key feature of staying cheap.  Pirate uses a swarm of rotodrones with grenade launchers (only ever need 3 hits to hit!) and drone arms (a bunch of rotodrones working together has a good bit of lifting power, plus a working arm lets the rigger jump in and use miscellaneous skills).  Street racer has a pack of Duellist drones equipped with gecko tips.  Slap armored jackets on them and they're reasonably durable AND still dirt cheap.  Not super effective offensively, but they're great for distractions and scouting.  And in a pinch, a whole bunch of melee attacks will erode big dodge pools so the true close combat characters can get easier targets.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (21:49:30/07-11-19)
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1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

As stated by others, they need a defined role that can't easily be outdone by the other archetypes. And that role should be driving/piloting... everything.

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2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

I have done a total of two chases in the campaign I am currently in. They were okay, but not the crux of my SR experience. I will say that our GM has made many opportunities where I get to test against the world, which is waaaaay more fun (jumping a truck over a car hauler to get past an accident a la Gone in 60 Seconds, two-wheeling a Gladius through traffic to get to a location before the mark, faking "possession" of car to scare information out of wage slave who thought he was just driving home, etc.).

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3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

Strong: Recon. Tiny/Small drones are great at getting into places and scouting intel.
Weak: Combat. Unless your dropping serious nuyen, they have pretty mediocre dice pools compared to starting characters.
Weak: Resilience. Drones have pathetic wound pools, even compared to vehicles. While this might make sense for a Fly-Spy, but not for a Steel Lynx.
Weak: Customization. The cost of upgrades, weapons (and mounts), pilot programs, and repairs makes being a Drone Bunny a pain in the fraggin hoop. And I'm not going to dive into the hole of how you can just throw body armor on anthrodrones...

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4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?

It should be both. The Rigger should be a master of anything with a motor.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?

Since the rigger interface operates through the matrix, they should have more of a matrix focus. But they should still have options that help with meatspace piloting as well (or passively help piloting in general).

Also, since being jumped in is supposed to be the end-all-be-all of piloting, it should give bonuses to matrix defense against people trying to hack your ride.

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

I like being the wheelman when it matters (which admittedly is not that often), and I also like being able to jump from drone to drone in combat to boost support where it's needed most.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

Having players with almost every other archetype being able to do things better than me. Anyone can slave drones to an RCC, and that just leaves jumping in (which is a situational bonus vs. the penalty of not only being in hot-sim, but having psychosomatic responses to the bad things happening to you).

Also, as anyone who's played a Rigger can attest to, its fragging EXPENSIVE! If our team gets into combat, I can guarantee I'm losing a few thousand nuyen in repairs or replacement drones after the run.

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8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?

Yes to both. There should be options for both, and the stats should reflect what you're paying for. A Fly-Spy should be cheap as drek, because it has one job (recon), and dies to a stiff breeze. An Ares KN-Y series should be able to take a real beating and keep going, because its a fragging tank (at current it gets 24 soak dice and 9, count 'em, 9 HP).

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

Its a mixed bag. Some vehicles are good for their money, while others seem ludicrously expensive/restrictive for what they offer (and how quickly they will be picked out by security forces).

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10) Fill in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where (what?) they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

My perfect Sunday... I mean, my ideal Rigger is...

...a monster behind the wheel. Whether its commanding a car, a plane, or a swarm of drones, they should be the ones that people look at in awe when they pull off impossible stunts.

...a true support class. The Rigger doesn't need to outshine other archetypes in combat or matrix ability, but should be a force multiplier for those party members that are combat- or matrix- focused. And in the matrix, they should be able to hack vehicles and drones with some proficiency.

...a tinkerer. One of the things that makes a type-punk setting is that everybody makes things their own, and Riggers should be able to mod up vehicles and drones to make them unique while still being functional (And without breaking the bank (unless that's what they're built to do)). And over time, that latent ability to create and repair may extend into other fields (weapons, armor, electronics, etc.).

...a multi-tasker. A Rigger is supposed to be able to split their attention across multiple drone/vehicle feeds all the time, so they should be more proficient at remote piloting than other archetypes.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: RiggerBob on (02:20:34/07-12-19)
I don't think that a clear and defined role in which to shine is strictly necessary. It can be completely fine to be the supporting techguy in many fields at the same time. Let's be honest... How many times have you played in a group with 2 mages or 2 streetsams? Or with a cybered streetsam besides a physical adept with about 90%+ overlap in "their" field of competence. That's completely ok, when they play side by side. When is fighting for the spotlight ever a character-problem, instead of a player-problem? It only gets problematic when the balancing is so bad that one guy can outdo multiple specialists (certain magician builds say hello) or is constantly low-impact in anything he does...

I played a rigger in 4th edition for a long time (or more accurately the vehicle/drone guy as real rigging -as in jumping into vehicles- wasn't handled that well in 4th) in a group of 5 with a stealthy adept, hacker, cybered ranged/heavy weapons specialist and a hermetic mage. No, we didn't do much vehicle fights and chases...so i was never the one guy dominating a scene. Which was completely ok, because i was the most versatile instead, always involved and useful.

The adept infiltrated some corporate compound and i provided the eye in the sky with a flying drone with tricked out sensors catching patrols early while simultaneously having a couple of very small and stealthy drones to scout ahead and map out the area. I could have never replaced a specialised infiltrator because those drones sucked at everything physical (like stealing stuff, planting explosives or even silently neutralizing some security guy) and drones who could do that would be anything but stealthy... but still i provided some unique skills that made the task easier.

I dabbled in hacking too (something that was much too easy in 4th, more about that later...) with low-ish skills but specialising in drones and spoofing, so i would not interfere with any primary hacker job but could compete where our fields overlapped (hacking drones) and if needed i could handle some cameras while the hacker was occupied with a difficult node/host.

And my heavy combat drone was on a par with any specialised combat character. But it was big, loud and obvious (and a bit slow) which restricted it's use. So it never competed with an actual combat-heavy character (although -as said above- having more then one combat specialist side by side is rarely a problem anyway), but was an emergency backup. And i remember my gm once talking about how much he liked that setup: It can be quite a balance between not challenging the specialised combat characters at all and accidently killing everyone else. And i have seen more than one pregen mission/adventure which could be completely aced by a smart and stealthy team... up to the open end fight. So having some "heavy artillery" backup (that's of no real use most of the time) for when the shit has already hit the fan can be a huge boon without overshadowing other combat characters.

All in all that support tech guy (and yes, often working as the soccer mom too^^) worked very well then. There was never someone who had any reason to question his/her own character's use and never the question what the rigger was actually bringing to the team.



And then 5th edition happened and they completely dropped the ball... escalating existing problems while adding new ones:

1) Resources and the priority system:
I understand including priorities as the default character-generating system made sense with that "everything has it's price" motto. I can even understand (to a certain degree) how they increased the possible money you start with (and adjusted equipment costs accordingly) to separate the high attribute or skills guy from the fully-cybered guy and the magic user. But for riggers that's just bad: The magician with magic A gets access to magic and a high magic rating, which he will never lose (short of small magic decreases through essence loss). The high attribute or skills guy gets permanent points. The cyber-sam gets ware for all the ¥ and keeps it, because there are basically no rules for physical damage to cyberware. The decker can buy it's expensive deck, which could actually just be shot to pieces... but there are no rules regarding a physical condition monitor or armor of such a device, implying that it's meant to be hand-waved or more accurately not to happen at all except for story purposes. Which makes sense because he spend a high char-gen priority on getting that deck instead of attributes, skills or whatever...

And then there's the rigger, who buys vehicles and drones. Drones that are supposed to be used in combat and get a complete set of rules for damaging and destroying them. Is there any other kind of character that can possibly lose most of what get got from a priority A selection in the first occuring combat?

This problem theoretically existed in earlier editions. But it was never remotely that bad when you could either modify "combat drones/verhicles" to a point where they were expensive but sturdy enough to survive actual combat or use disposable ones... cheap drones without any mods (that either aren't cheap anymore because of prizes raised to fit the new priority A max. ¥ or are still cheap but come with stats so low they are useless without modding) or stolen ones (yes, there was a time when stealing cars and other equipment was possible...^^).
And to put gasoline into the fire the rules not only tell us our drones are supposed to be fragile by reducing condition monitors and armor (and limiting adding armor), they add vehicle repair costs too. Costs so high it doesn't even matter if your damaged vehicle survives. Better torch it by the roadside and get a cheaper new one, because you might be allowed to buy a tricked out van at character generation but don't think you will ever get enough money to repair moderate damage to it.

2) Welcome to the matrix:
For 3 editons riggers were the grease and oil, cogs and screws and metal parts guys that tinkered with their vehicles and customized them. They got remote-controlled drones later (was it in late 2nd or in 3rd ediiton?), which they could customize too. But it was always about the hardware. Then the wireless matrix happened and suddenly: Congratulations, you are now a matrix character! Doesn't matter that all your vehicle, mechanics, gunnery or hardware skills (which you still need for your job too) actually don't do anything in the matrix. Just broaden your horizon and get an additional set of skills...

Yes, that problem existed in 4th edition. But it was mitigated by the other big flaw of 4th edition: hacking was too easy. You didn't need many additional skills to hack, just a solid commlink with programs (cheap compared to 5th edition), and nearly no attributes at all, because everything could be handled by rolling program+skill...
It was okay for riggers, because they already had a good commlink and programs for controlling their drones anyway. And they could save points for additional software, hackings skills and more programs by lowering attributes that weren't needed that much anymore, because you now used your mental stats in VR, especially logic (the attribute already linked to all their mechanic/hardware stuff) for agility.

But it was bad for hackers (as an archetype) when every script kiddie could grab a commlink with some pirated hacking software (yes, 4th edition had rules for hacked software which degraded over time because it lacked frequent updates but was really cheap (i think to remember 10% of the regular ones)) and be a hacker. So most hacker characters were actually hacker+X, with X ranging from combat chars and riggers to even logic-based magicians...

So i totally get the changes in 5th edition, the return of specialised and expensive hacking hardware (decks), multiple skills needed to cover most matrix actions and the spread of these skills over different mental attributes. Sadly they again forgot about riggers and the problems that were already there just covered up by the lacking matrix design.

So now we got riggers, who still need physical attributes and different vehicles skills, mechanics, hardware and gunnery for their vehicle actions but mental attributes too, because now they are matrix characters. And even if they don't do anything else but controlling vehicles through the matrix they still can't avoid defense tests using logic, intuition and willpower. Oh, and of course they need matrix skills too, wireless warfare and computer at least.

But while it may be necessary to have a high wireless warfare skill to use and counter jamming and a high computer skill for spotting marks put on them/their drones via matrix perception that of course doesn't mean they are allowed to do anything else with these skills as nearly all other matrix actions require marks first (which they can't get without hacking) or are considered hacking (which they can't do without a deck).

And besides (hopefully) high mental attributes that "matrix character" has the same defense against matrix attacks as joe wageslave: rebooting if he gets lucky and spots marks in time. At least he can keep control of one single drone being hacked by jumping into it (at least for a few seconds... see point 3)

And while different later books added more software and hardware to gain access to the full range of matrix actions or defend better against getting your stuff hacked, most of these are either worded badly so you have to endure endless discussions if they are even allowed to be used by riggers (beginning with the not-so-clear corebook statement about which programs can be used (on a rrc or drone^^)) or are explicitly restricted to commlink only.

3) Jumping in...or not:
At the beginning there was this piece of cyberware called a control-rig. It basically gave the rigger his name and allowed him the unique ability to become their verhicle, to feel it and to control it intuitively and gracefully as if it was his own body. Mechanically it gave the rigger a unique vehicle control dice pool to help with every driving related test. It went downhill from there...

With the release of the wireless matrix in 4th edition, everyone using the matrix all the time and nearly anybody being able to go full VR that character-defining "being the machine" got lost. Everybody using VR could jump into a drone (or vehicle with a rigging adaption) to see how it feels to be the vehicle. And the control-rig got downgraded to a piece of cheap, low essence headware that gives a bonus when jumped in. (And it was mechanically a completely useless piece of trash for characters because jumping-in changed the mechanics for controlling vehicles from (cheap) program + skill to attribute + skill... but not your attributes, you used the matrix attributes of the vehicle. So you had to upgrade every single drone to near-milspec hardware-standards to get the same dicepools you had when just controlling it remotely.)

So when they reverted that change in 5th and the expensive high essence control-rig returned and was again required for jumping into vehicles it looked like a good day for riggers. Until you read all the other rules...

Jumped in all vehicle actions count as matrix actions, so you get a +2 hot-sim bonus. But someone using the control device matrix action to remotely control said vehicle gets the same +2 in hot-sim...
Jumping in gives you another +1 dice for all vehicle, gunnery and sersor perception tests. But then there's the codeslinger quality for +2 on a single type of matrix action...say control device for example. So it's either +1 to all tests for jumping in or +2 on all tests excluding sensor perception...
Jumping into a vehicle reduces vehicle test tresholds by the control-rigs rating. At least a real unique bonus... but -as mentioned before in this thread- tresholds are rarely high (and the one control vehicle action you need to do in combat once per turn doesn't even need a test...)

And all these tremendous advantages only come at the cost of taking physical damage (in hot-sim VR) from bio-feedback when your ride gets damaged. Which plays very well with the reduced vehicle armor and increased weapon's damage of 5th edition...

But wait... i forgot something... jumping into a vehicle makes it immune to being remote-controlled by a hacker. After my talk about lacking matrix defense this has to be a huge advantage. Until you realize it's the same edition that introduced us to data spikes and now you only have to decide between rebooting a drone that is about to get hacked or jumping into it to keep control for another 5 to 10 seconds before you get data-spiked, bricked and dumpshocked into unconsciousness (or death considering bio-feedback damage you might have taken before).


5th edition did one thing right in bringing the actual "rigger" back... and then they screwed up the rules so hard the only riggers left playing do so out of nostalgia.

PS: But to answer the first question that started this thread... my group(s) would probably answer: "tech/gear support in all situations"  :D
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (08:04:09/07-12-19)
I want to take a moment to post a difference of opinion to some of the other question takers.
These are not meant to challenge their perspective, simply express the difference.

Street racer has a pack of Duellist drones equipped with gecko tips.  Slap armored jackets on them and they're reasonably durable AND still dirt cheap.

You consider 4050 nuyen base, and before any add-ons such as the fore mentioned armored jacket with a 10% reduction, as dirt cheap?
The core rulebook has runs maxing out at around 36000 nuyen per run.  That is with every single bonus possible and having a 24 dice pool as the largest opposition.  I will grant you that technically the die pool bonus is open ended, so it could go higher.
That makes each Duelist about 12% of your Riggers paycheck.  Even if we go conservative to give you the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't call 10% of a paycheck as dirt cheap.
Would you consider a Starbucks Latte dirt cheap if it cost 10% of your paycheck?

I don't think that a clear and defined role in which to shine is strictly necessary. It can be completely fine to be the supporting techguy in many fields at the same time.

Here is the thing.

Every archetype can be built as supporting.  Some need it more than others.
Making that the Riggers "only thing," is a waste.

At that point just remove them from the game.  Cut that anchor loose from the Shadowrun ship and use the freed up page count to improve the rest of  the game.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (12:36:09/07-12-19)
1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?
Bring down repair costs for one. As an archetype that relies on both karma and nuyen, I live in constant fear of drones or vehicles taking damage. Other than that, drones could be made to be a lot more sturdy.

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2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?
Twice so far in 10 runs, and one of those times was just messing with some local gangers, not an actual part of the run. It would be nice if they could be a staple of certain run types, but I can appreciate that they're difficult if not impossible to work into every run.

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3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
Customization is pretty good. It's difficult to get armor and a large soak pool on drones, not that it's going to matter in 6e.

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4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
I think it should be an individual choice. Realistically, any rigger on a shadowrun team is going to have to do drones to some degree, but how much they want to go into drones versus vehicles should be up to them.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
Meatspace for sure, but Electronic Warfare should still be relevant.

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?
I have gotten some very good recon done with my Flyspy, not just because of its size but also because every drone comes with an array of sensors. I've also enjoyed using the wide variety of mods installed in my Roadmaster, from the winches to the valkyrie module to the good old ramming plate.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?
I've found myself with nothing to do in combat, but I think that's my fault for waiting so long to purchase a combat drone.

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8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
Having both available would be best. Currently the fragile drones are overcosted and the expensive drones need to be tougher.

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?
Vehicle costs are appropriate, if you run with one vehicle.

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10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.
As a previous said, a mature archetype doesn't really have an ideal form. That said, the people writing the books seem to have this ridiculous idea that the average rigger is going to have several vehicles, and they should disabuse themselves of that notion. The smuggler in CRB gets a bit of a pass because one of his vehicles is a helicopter, but the street racer from RF is ludicrous. A car, a van and two different bikes? Is she treating them like drones? I have two vehicles myself, but I only picked up the janky Jackrabbit because I needed a vehicles that gangers would actually dare shoot at and chase after. I have also used it when we needed to look inconspicuous in a relatively nice neighborhood, but now that I have chameleon coating on my Roadmaster I don't need to use it for that anymore.

Speaking of archetypes, there should be a distinction made between van riggers who use Bulldogs and van riggers who use Roadmasters. One chooses to be inconspicuous while the other chooses to be suspicious but excusable in exchange for near-indestructibility.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:44:38/07-12-19)
Street racer has a pack of Duellist drones equipped with gecko tips.  Slap armored jackets on them and they're reasonably durable AND still dirt cheap.

You consider 4050 nuyen base, and before any add-ons such as the fore mentioned armored jacket with a 10% reduction, as dirt cheap?
The core rulebook has runs maxing out at around 36000 nuyen per run.  That is with every single bonus possible and having a 24 dice pool as the largest opposition.  I will grant you that technically the die pool bonus is open ended, so it could go higher.
That makes each Duelist about 12% of your Riggers paycheck.  Even if we go conservative to give you the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't call 10% of a paycheck as dirt cheap.
Would you consider a Starbucks Latte dirt cheap if it cost 10% of your paycheck?


Surely you understand that when the idiom "dirt cheap", or a variant thereof, is used it's inherent exaggeration?  No, something that's "cheap as dirt" isn't literally as expensive as some mass of dirt.

No, Duellist drones are not literally as cheap as dirt. But they are significantly cheaper than say a Steel Lynx drone, which begins at 25,000 nuyen.  And it's price only goes up when you trick it out for combat, because that's what you're going to do if you're going to the bother of acquiring a Steel Lynx in the first place.  Push its Pilot and Armor ratings as far as you can, slap on some expensive weapons because let's face it, you're not going to go to all this expense just to build an Assault Rifle firing platform, and you'll easilly end up in the 50,000 to 60,000 neighborhood.  For a drone.  Yes, a 5,0000 nuyen option is in comparison so much cheaper that in an exaggeration you might say that they're closer to the cost of dirt than a tricked out combat drone.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (16:41:09/07-12-19)
Surely you understand that when the idiom "dirt cheap", or a variant thereof, is used it's inherent exaggeration?  No, something that's "cheap as dirt" isn't literally as expensive as some mass of dirt.

I am well aware of the idiom.

What I was referring to was how much a Duelist costs to replace since the paradigm that Wakshaani posed was cheap and disposable versus expensive and durable.

If the Duelist only costs 10% of a runs pay to replace, that isn't very cheap.  The fact that it will more likely cost 33% of the runs pay that is was lost in takes it well out of the realm of cheap*.  In your particular Duelist(s) case, it is at least more durable than most drones.  It still doesn't make it cheap.

*If we apply the real world budgeting advice of no more that 75% of your pay going to Lifestyle (rent, bills, food, etc.), then losing a single Duelist is likely cutting into food money.  "Cheap as dirt" should be used only on things that end up being 1% of the pay, as that approaches the impulse buy realm.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (16:57:30/07-12-19)
Then we're getting hung up over the word "disposable" then, I suppose.

Even the little bug drones that cost 1000 nuyen are hardly disposable in the sense that you can afford to replace them every run.

But when it comes to comparing cheap, lightly modded drones to expensive, massively invested drones, the cheap ones are indeed comparatively disposable.  My riggers don't want to see a rotodrone or a duellist get destroyed, but if it happens it's far less of a big deal than being out a 50,000 nuyen Steel Lynx.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Wakshaani on (17:00:47/07-12-19)
For the record, I'm taking notes on all this, so, by all means, keep tossing thoughts out.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (17:20:42/07-12-19)
Your disposable recon drones should run 50 to 100 Nuyen at most.  Spirits are free and do it better in many cases. 

Combat drones should be expensive, effective, and have overflow boxes so they stop functioning, but are still repairable.  Same with Vehicles.  And even if they fill the overflow boxes some salvage value should be retained.  Combat loss is not a total loss.

Repair rules should be you need a toolkit, parts (aka Nuyen), and time.  And they should be automatic or low threshold tests.  IRL there are very few car repairs you can't do in your driveway with hand tools.  Shops should be a bonus.  Fabrication should be NPCs, but if you have one, you no longer need to buy parts.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Beta on (17:23:06/07-12-19)
I make no claim that my answers would please any existing Rigger players.  This is purely what I'd like to see:

1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?
 That they are dependent on fairly fixed props for most of what they do.  Props can't be brought into all situation, and the fairly inflexible nature of Rigger props means they have a high risk of not having the right tool (vehicle, drone) for the job until/unless they become so wealthy that you have to wonder why they are still running the shadows. 

2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?
 Over several years of running a one player game I've run a a few races and a couple of prolonged chases and had the occasional stunt driving or control type situation.  I try to slide something in every few adventures.  And this is without a Rigger PC.   

3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
 Others have answered this is a fair bit of detail, but I'll add rigidity.  Yes you can modify them to an extent, but it tends to be time consuming and expensive.

4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
 This is where I probably really diverge from Rigger players.  I think the role should be something more like 'mechanic' or 'McGyver' which is frequently expressed in tricked out vehicles and drones and mastery in using them.  But could equally well be expressed in quick adjustments of gear to the situation, messing with systems in target facilities, and so on.

5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
 Meatspace.  It is where most of the action is.  I'd go farther and say that Riggers should be the archetype who is most at home in AR.  It is that boundary of real space and technology where they thrive.  Deckers=VR, Riggers=AR

6) What do you like about being a Rigger?
 I've never played a rigger as a player.  One of the usual supporting NPC in my one player games is a rigger, and frankly I hand wave a lot of what he does because of all the issues with Riggers that others have identified.

That said, with every character type what I love is doing 'impossible' things (or at least surprising things), that is things that other PC couldn't do (probably), but most importantly that NPC didn't expect.  Like how most people are not ready for the sheer speed, toughness,  and offensive power of a street samurai, or how a well timed illusion can completely change how a run is going, or when a hacker does something simple like spoof a message that messes up the opposition.  With riggers I want to lose pursuers by morphing my car when I break line of site.  I want to penetrate their security using a pizza delivery drone.  I want to identify the weak spot in their defenses and whip up a drone modification to do just the right thing at the right place at the right time to exploit that.

7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?
 First of all, to me the mechanical build of the Rigger just goes about it the wrong way.  It was like it was decided that the defining feature of a Rigger should be their control implant, so it was made costly enough to avoid dabblers, then bonuses were piled on to it to justify the cost, and then things were built out from there.

To me Riggers should be closer to Street Samurai where lots of people may dabble (drive and use drones on the one hand, fight and reflexes in the other), but it is the culmination of various qualities and ware and gear that really makes the role. 

On top of that they are so tied into expensive and inflexible gear (vehicles and drones) that it doesn't give them a lot of slack for creative builds.

8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
 As others have said: both!  A 300nY basic quad copter on station waiting to see if the mark returns to the motel.  A Steel Lynx that is designed to take punishment and to be easily and quickly repaired.

9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?
 As I said before, I'd make vehicles less central to the role, and then this becomes a more niche question.  All of that said, the cost of higher performance vehicles is possibly realistic, but it takes them out of reach for too long.  It will be the rare rigger PC who actually gets to play with the fun toys regularly. 

10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

I don't have this very well thought out, so this is sort of from the seat of my pants:
-Upon finding out that the mark doesn't know which storage tank has the new FAB slurry, the hacks up fly-spy with ultrasound to determine the density of the tank contents. 
-Motorizes an armored briefcase and adds pop-out wheels as a McGuffin delivery device
-When they get close to the processing area they realize that there is a guard they didn't know about, rigger attaches a jammer to a skimmer and gives it a route to sneak up towards that guard, so that neither guard nor biomonitor can call for help instantly, giving the team time to take him out and hack his biomonitor. 
-Figures out the production line and how to re-program it to build faulty products
-Gets hired as a fork-lift operator as part of the infiltration plan
-Of course the gate has been shut, but that was expected so for this mission he's equipped the van with a ram plate in order to bash through it safely enough. 
-Sends the marks car to a black-market wrecker which can quickly fry all the tracking and then break it down for parts, so that nobody will ever know where it went.
-When the team breaks out of the fire exit their path is clear, because the rigger had sent his steel lynx back there to clear out the guards.  It rolls along as their escort until they reach the van.
-Teaches his 'mechanics third hand' drone how to shoot a pistol
 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (17:26:44/07-12-19)
+1 @ Hobbes.

Like it or not, spirits are the standard by which drones are measured. Be it recon, combat, or utility.  And drones come up short in economy, survivability, AND effectiveness.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: adzling on (17:57:02/07-12-19)
Your disposable recon drones should run 50 to 100 Nuyen at most.  Spirits are free and do it better in many cases. 

Combat drones should be expensive, effective, and have overflow boxes so they stop functioning, but are still repairable.  Same with Vehicles.  And even if they fill the overflow boxes some salvage value should be retained.  Combat loss is not a total loss.

Repair rules should be you need a toolkit, parts (aka Nuyen), and time.  And they should be automatic or low threshold tests.  IRL there are very few car repairs you can't do in your driveway with hand tools.  Shops should be a bonus.  Fabrication should be NPCs, but if you have one, you no longer need to buy parts.

xclnt post hobbes +2 from me!
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (18:24:51/07-12-19)
Thanks!  People like to tell me I really get Riggers.  Especially Snake people   ;) ;D :P
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:09:41/07-14-19)
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Wakshaani on (11:41:20/07-14-19)
It's early yet! :D And this isn't the heaviest board for Shadowrun-related stuff. I'll need to expand things elsewhere and put together a more detailed questionnaire possibly.

BUT!

The general thrust is there. Once we get problems identified then we can work on solutions. I already have a few popping around inside my noggin but it'll take a while to get things in place.

Still, a good start, and thanks to everyone who's joined in thusfar and to those who have yet to follow up.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Singularity on (11:43:37/07-14-19)
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Michael Chandra on (12:15:49/07-14-19)
I GM, and my wife refuses to touch the forum with an 11-foot carbon pole. So alas, neither of us can share here.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (15:45:25/07-14-19)
Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.

That is a very valid point.  It is one we are all - well those of us who don't have access to the 6e CRB - waiting on.

From what has been said, 6e will address some of the issues brought up in this thread.
On the flip side, based on the Rigger QSR Dossier the majority of the Control Rig bonus has been reduced to generating 1 Edge.

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Singularity on (16:57:14/07-14-19)

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.

Actually, from my experience it fairly typical for beginner's boxed set rules to differ at least somewhat from the full rules. Not too much, as it then defeats the purpose of giving people an idea of what your game is about, but enough so that it's noticeable (especially when creating characters using the full rules). I have the Shadowrun boxed set, but not having played it before I have no frame of reference until I can get the main rule book in my hands.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: BeCareful on (23:06:36/07-14-19)
I've never played as one, but I'd like to. So, here's what I think:

1) "Where does Rigging need improvement?" I honestly don't know. I do think seperate skills for piloting and mechanic-related tinkering for different classes of vehicle would help, especially if Jumping In let you substitute something for each of those skills. Getting an intuitive brain-computer-interface with your drone/vehicle should certainly help in driving whatever it is, but getting an understanding of how to modify it.

2) "How often does vehicular action turn up?" Since I've had groups that have fallen to bits after the first few runs, about half of them? That still isn't very many. Still, none of them have been the "try to outrun racing bikes in a van" scenario, usually since every runner I've been with has had their own sort of transportation. The decker incites crashes, the magician does magic, whoever's Rigging attracts attention/sideswipes anyone in those flimsy bikes, and everyone else uses guns.

3) "Strength/weaknesses of drones:" While they do mean you don't have to risk yourself, the situational irony is that it's faster and easier for the Rigger to recover than any of their drones. Having overflow would certainly help, maybe with another rule that broken-but-not-totalled drones could still be able to limp away. Making them less expensive would result in more people buying them even if they didn't have a Control Rig, but they could still invite Rigger Access to them, letting the whole team help 'em out! Also, with the repair rules in 5th, GMs may have to be nice by giving them parts to scavenge, either off of trash mob drones they find, or contacts.

4) "Drone/Vehicle Preference?" I go both ways. Sort of like (incoming tangent) how I wish Mystic Adepts could either be Adepts With A Couple Spells or Spellcasters With A Little Qi, without being either bad at both or too good at both. Though this also depends on the setting. We're going to be spending time away from any metroplex? The Rigger wants an armoured van that's bristling with weaponry? That works! We're going to be infiltrating a big, well-ventilated office building? Break out the Kanmushi & Fly-Spies!

5) "Meatspace or Matrix?" Either? Would it be a good idea to have a Control Rig help out even when you aren't Jumped In? Aren't RCCs able to get around Pilot limitations anyway? I don't really mind drone dicepools always being lower than most people's, since drones are supposed to be more replaceable than characters.

6) "What Do I Like About It?" Other than the idea of Being Your Car, or putting a cowboy hat & trenchcoat on your Duelist and pretending it's you, the idea of having a bunch of little robots that people will underestimate until you jump into them and use your dicepools for stuff. Or having a customized vehicle that I'd get to show off, instead of having to leave it in the garage when the Mission text reads, "You all show up on time to the meet, and Mr. Johnson says you'll all have to get smuggled across the border in this shipping container."

7) "Worst Aspects?" As usual, when your precious, expensive baby explodes, or falls into the ocean, or can't be salvaged in some other way. Then the Force Large spirit that hit it with a Lightning Bolt gets fought by a spirit called in by your mage, and they resort to Astral Combat so you can't even see it go down.

Cool Shades Face) "Cheap & Disposable vs. Expensive & Durable?" While there should be options for both, I'd probably rather start out with one or two sturdy drones I can modify more later, and pick up a cheap infiltration-based one or two later. Or equip one of those robot baby drones with a self-destruct system. To trick the target into picking up; I don't want to be known as the runner who throws exploding babies at people. Oh, and as for cars, I'd prefer stealth systems like spoof chips & electrochromic coatings so I won't have to ditch them for new ones every so often.

9) "Vehicle Costs:" I think they're about okay where they are? Maybe a bit less, because of repair costs, and if they don't get used enough.

10) "Fill In The Blanks!" Right now, I see Rigging as support work: they can help infiltrate, place a mobile bug somewhere, assisst with an extra hail of bullets, watch everyone's backs, and effect a "NOW NOW NOW!" kind of escape. Really, all I hope for are cheaper drone costs, cheaper repairs (one might lead to the other), Control Rigs that provide some benefit even without Jumping In, and, if possible, spirits having a harder time noticing/affecting drones. Making drones a weakness for spirits might help be a balancing factor, preferably if the drones don't have to be loaded with sniper rifles doing Focused Bursts with APDS or spraying Blight on them.

Also: I don't mind if drones are made more accessible. As I mentioned before, it wouldn't water down the Rigging role so much as help with the "Nobody Can Do That Better Than I Can" comparison. More so if you let the Rigger Rig with your drone as well. If the other characters even invest in a drone in the first place.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Beta on (09:32:56/07-15-19)
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

I think one factor too could be that the forums of late have been almost nothing but arguing about 6th edition in various ways, with most threads, whatever their original intent, eventually arriving at variations on why people already hate 6th edition, what it should have been, and whether Catalyst is ignorant or actively hates ShadowRun (maybe a slight bit of exaggeration here, but it is certainly how it has been feeling to me).  Which, IMO,  makes the place pretty unpleasant for anyone who isn't invested in such arguments. 

I suspect that a lot of people have given up checking in here, or assumed that this thread would have just turned into 'how 6th edition has killed Riggers', or something like that.  (This thread has remained remarkably constructive, which honestly has amazed me a bit given the overall environment around here lately). 

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: BeCareful on (13:43:59/07-15-19)
Yeah, I originally thought I wouldn't be able to add much, until I realized I had something to offer that's in short supply right now: positivity!

Plus, from what it sounds, Rigging has been tough in most editions, and 6th is looking to make it both easier and more fun. So there's hopefully that.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: mcv on (11:25:02/07-29-19)
2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Depends on the story. Not every run needs a vehicle chase, so a dedicated driver is always going to be wasted on some missions. Being the designated driver should be a side job next to other responsibilities.

Quote
3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
They're strong at scouting and observation. You can be in multiple places at once.

They're weak in combat because they're expensive and fragile.

Quote
4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
Both. A dedicated driver is going to be a waste on a lot of missions. A rigger should be able to do both. Especially as long as combat is too expensive for a rigger, there's nothing wrong with a rigger being able to shine everywhere else.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
I think this should be a choice. There is some natural synergy between deckers and riggers, so it'd be nice if you could combine them so some extent. Maybe give up either vehicles or drones in order to be better in the Matrix. On the other hand it'd also be nice if a rigger could afford to kick ass in combat. But excelling at combat and matrix and scouting and chases is too much. There should still be trade-offs

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?
Being able to control multiple drones, and use them as extensions of yourself. And the gear porn of course.

At least, that's what attracts me about riggers. I've never played one because I'm currently the GM of my group. I'd love to recommend playing a rigger to my players, but the extra the rules seem like a steep hurdle, and they seem to be about the hardest archetype to play effectively.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?
Yet another rule system to deal with. That, and the expensive fragile toys that you can't afford to risk.

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8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
Both. Cheap and disposable has its uses, but it'd be nice if you could also get a real tank that had some staying power in combat without costing more than your pay to fix it.

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?
I think vehicle prices are fine. I don't know if they're too tough or too fragile, but a basic van is quite affordable. Though from what I understand, the vehicle rules don't really allow riggers to show off with one. Of course a van is never going to be as fast as a bike, no matter how good a rigger is, but there are other subtleties about a chase where being the vehicle, rather than merely driving it, should really help.

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10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.
Support mostly. Eyes in the sky, backup firepower, scouting, driving the car. But no drone should outshine the street sam in combat. A drone that's as fast as a street sam should be more vulnerable, a drone that's tougher than a street sam should be slower. A heavily armored drone runs slowly on tracks.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (14:44:38/07-30-19)
Sorry for formatting. On phone.

Control Rig is super powerful when it comes to controlling a vehicle and its mounted weapons. Piloting or Gunnery without one does not even compare.

RCC is very useful when controlling swarm of drones. Use of a commlink or cyberdeck does not compare.


Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger
...    That means that any Initiative based character (typically Street Sams and Adepts, though Mages can be as well) can out pilot a Rigger when only comparing meatspace abilities.


Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills. But yes, others might have better physical initiative.


Remote PilotingWash
   The Rigger doesn’t gain anything in Remote Piloting that others do not.


On the fly noise reduction using Electronic Warfare.
Noise reduction by reducing sharing.
Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills.
... But yes, others might have higher physical initiative, but remote control can also be done via VR (this give you situational modifiers) and VR will also use your VR imitative rather than your physical initiative.


Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   In 5e, the primary benefit of being Jumped In is reduced Thresholds for Piloting tests.


This is where they shine and totally outclass other drivers or gunners in anything vehicle related.

Control Rig also increase Speed, Handing, Accuracy and Sensor(!)


In 5e, there are no opposed Piloting rolls (other than whatever the GM makes up), and you are only rolling against the environment.


Using your vehicle to stalk/follow someone.
Using vehicle mounted weapons to fire at someone.
Using your vehicle to ram someone.
Using your vehicle to catch up or break away from someone.
Etc.


 
slip into some building/facility, and do your nefarious deed, and slip out unnoticed. 

By that point of view you don't need muscle, either.

Combat happens (otherwise known as 'The Shit Hits The Fan"-phase)
As a result you will have an exfil phase under time pressure (because HTR team is entering the facility or whatever)
Which is followed by the car chase scene (unless maybe the team don't have a dedicated wheelman, same as if the team don't have a way to deal with magical threats then they will probably not run into magical threats...)

Watch any random action movie. Car chasing happens.


Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger

Manual piloting is not a thing for drones. But you can instruct the autopilot to take an action on its own, using its own ratings.

With an RCC you get to instruct multiple drones with one simple action.
With RCC you get to share autosofts that have higher rating than the drone can run

If you use a rigger 5 then:
With RCC you can run drone swarms


Remote PilotingWash
   Just like in the wheelman role, there is no advantage to a Rigger remote piloting over any other character...


On the fly noise reduction using Electronic Warfare.
Noise reduction by reducing sharing.
Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills.
... But yes, others might have higher physical initiative, but remote control can also be done via VR (this give you situational modifiers) and VR will also use your VR imitative rather than your physical initiative.


Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   Also like the wheelman role, Riggers are the only ones...


In addition to all the advantages that wheelman enjoyed (reduced thresholds, increased dice pool, increase Speed, Handing, Accuracy and Sensor) you also get to:

Jump between drones as a simple action
Reduce noise on the fly
Reduce noise by reducing sharing

If you use a rigger 5 then:
While jumped in you can take the swarm action (which is different from the swarm program)




Typical roles in Shadowrun :

* Muscle (Combat and physical infiltration)
* Face (Contact networking, negotiating, social infiltration)
* Hacker (Matrix legwork & stealing blueprints, control cameras, elevators, sensors & alarms during infiltration and exfiltration, electrician)
* Rigger (Wheelman, transportation, physical surveillance & physical overwatch, combat support, mechanic, get-away-driver)
* Magician (Utility spells, astral surveillance & astral overwatch, deal with astral threats such as spirits, combat support)


Edit. Making my way through the thread...



Riggers should drive donuts around others in vehicle chases / combat.
    That is the lie of someone who hasn't grasped the rules for vehicle chases / combats.  Lets take one Bad Ass Rigger (BAR for short) with a dice pool of...


You almost never have a speed environment. Not even during a street race. In my experience it will be handing and higher thresholds that will be the limiting factor. Prevent crashing, performing impossible stunts and racing in tight terrain. This is something a jumped in driver excel at.




1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

They need cheaper infiltration / surveillance drones and it need to be cheaper to repair their more expansive combat drones and vehicles.

IMO this is what a rigger do: Wheelman, transportation, physical surveillance & physical overwatch, combat support, mechanic, get-away-driver.


2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Quite often if we have a wheelman.
Not very often if we don't

Same as if we quite often have Astral threats (or matrix threats) if have someone that can deal with them
Not often if we don't.

3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

Strong at long range support. Long range sniper shots at unaware targets. 600-800m layered suppressive fire from machine guns. Surveillance. Jumped in infiltration.

Drones are fragile and expensive. Can't handle direct combat that well. But it is also important that they don't take spotlight from muscle....


4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?

Driven vehicles.


5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?

They should impact the physical world, but also anything signal related (ECM, ECCM, lock on, jamming, bug scanning, intercept signals)

Also [temporary] stealing cars (!)

But not really hacking or cybercombat.


6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

In theory? The gone in 60 seconds or the fast n the furious feeling. Also Top Gun or that crazy pilot in the A Team.

Currently hard to translate that into actual Shadowrun game play :/


7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

The disconnect from the rest of the team.
Remote hackers have a similar issue, although AR hacking and direct connection backdoor is a step in the right direction.

Also many drones in combat slow down the flow of combat. Swarm rules is a step in the right direction (saw there are similar rules for mooks in SR6, which is good).


8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?

Both.
Cheap and disposable surveillance and infiltration drones.
Expansive and durable rigger alter ego that will represent the rigger on site and in combat  (exoskeleton or some sort of light battle mech that you ride inside??)

9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

Riggers are pretty resource intensive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Repair cost and upkeep are bigger issues I think.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (17:43:44/07-30-19)
Disclaimer: I'm chiming in here more to present a fantasy land of what the rigger could be.  Please don't misconstrue as an critique of prior editions.  Talking about what doesn't work well, or what would be even more fun is the only way something gets better.  No hate!

I think for me the real question of designing and presenting a rigger is in first working out the feel you want them to have in game.  For me, car chases are exciting things, and the BAR should be able to deliver the Fast And Furious experience, if that's how they want to build.  Similarly, with drones, they should be able to deliver the cyber-cavalry experience, or the cyberswarm experience, or the remote controlled battle bot companion experience, etc.  The most disappointing aspect of riggers is the simulationist angle which I haven't found works well in most RPGs. The rules are concerned more with modifiers at certain speeds, measuring terrain and distance per combat turns, etc.  Rigging should be a thrill-ride for the the player and the people in the back too.  I don't feel like just having more dice or better stats necessarily conveys that feel because it leaves the impact up to the narrative, which may or may not be present at the table.  I feel like there's an opportunity to specialize and thus add some better options to differentiate one type of rigger from another, but also use those to deliver some more punch to the role.

In the case of the "role of the rigger" question, it has a few directions it can go, so people have different answers, which is fine.  I'm simplifying to a few specific cases to get at how to create that BAR feeling for a rigger player outside of dice bonuses -- which is by unlocking new abilities no one else can match. 

"The Bus Driver"
I think the title alone suggests the lost opportunities here.  I would instead suggest "Mobile Command Center Pilot" as the archetype to aim at if this is the role the player wants to fill.  Here the role is defined by the character being at their most powerful while in the driver's seat of a vehicle that can (usually) carry the whole team and possibly one or more support vehicles like drone or another character's bike.  Their power comes in providing a mobile safehouse, a battle wagon and most helpfully a nexus to operate from that isn't bound by other considerations.  To amp up how this works, make sure that the Command Center really is useful.  Extend the range of wireless devices, make it a powerful WAN hub, get all the drone feeds sending in data and using onboard sensors to scan buildings and other vehicles for signs of threats.  While I think most editions allow the mechanics, they don't necessarily add a lot of gestalt to these abilities (that I've seen, full disclaimer I passed on 5E).  What makes the rigger special here vs any jamoke in a van?  What could make them more special?  What could a vehicle rig do with all this information that a regular person who still has a normal nervous system?  I think the answer lie sin the simsense.  If the rigger has all these data feeds, why can't they "feel" the area they are scanning and not just the road.  What if they could make the drones and extension of themselves and not a thing they need to jump in or out of.  They become the fingers of the hand.  The more devices and team members you link in, the wider the hand extends.  The Busdriver becomes the Mastermind or a Mother Hen guarding the Nest, virtually feeling the landscape for the rough spots, and sensing the terrain remotely through the drones.  Minor anomalies in the data they pick up become the "bumps" and "hotspots" you need to examine more closely.  This is similar to the "building spider" idea, but applied outdoors.  What it lacks are any definitive mechanics for how this would play out or what special abilities the mastermind now has with all these opportunities available.  Maybe this should be part of the Rigger Cocoon idea?  Have this specific mod be tied to the rigger's ability to spread a net  over the area.  Maybe they learn to hit a point of zen in this cocoon where they can sense and act reflexively without the need to consciously recognize certain patterns.  A gestalt effect between human an the machine that only this version of rigger can achieve.  It's range would be limited, but it's power is upped.

Cyber Cavalry
This version of a rigger I would define as the character who like to send in the drones for fire support.  Just one flavor of drone junkie out of several types of builds.  They buy the combat drones mostly and arm and armor them up.  By nature they probably want drones that can stand up to a fight.  My philosophy on drones would be that combat ones should be able to do so, but they should be crazy expensive as the offset.  They would be a breed apart from typical drone rules.  I think drones need a little bit more separation in types.  So, perhaps start with a "frame" for a drone defined by it's purpose, rather than by how it locomotes or what size it is.  So instead of "small wheeled drone" you would define it as a small wheeled COMBAT drone.  This means it's inherently able to take more punishment (ie not just defined by Body and Armor traits, but using special rules like "combat drones also reduce all incoming damage by 1, and gain +1 on attack rolls").  Trade this off by having each combat drone eat up two "slots" on the riggers control deck due to all the extra data being coordinated and analyzed.  Give these drones unique options other drones can't have, or work better (or worse) on the wrong frames.  Make these feel special and rewarding to have invested in, as opposed to the "same as other drones but with more hardpoints/better armor".  Similarly, a recon drone frame would have -1 on attack rolls, but +1 on sensor rolls, for example.  Carrier drones would move slower but be able to carry more weight than if you slapped the same cargo capacity on a combat drone.  Stuff like that.  Here the player (probably) wants the drones to be the source of the game impact.  They vicariously enjoy the robot doing the work and being able to guide a small strike team of their own that supports the team and the mission.  When its time for the cavalry to lay in on the enemy, it should feel like a "yeehah" moment more than an "activate tailgun drone" moment.  When they activate Brutus, and the metal feet start clanking down the hall to save the team, with security guards fleeing before his flamethrower arm and shoulder mounted grenade launcher, it should be a "woo hoo" moment.  Unleash the battle bot!  When jumped into the Battle Bot, this type of rigger gets a new bonus.  The adrenaline, the flow of it all, the custom interface, all that means I'm shrugging off a little damage from each hit, I'm making deadlier strikes, I'm compensating for short circuits from damage and ignoring some penalties anyone else would be taking, etc etc. "You scratched my paint!  Y'all in trouble now!"  Brutus costs as much as a mansion, and his parts cost double because he's so customized, but he's worth every nuyen.  I'm also likely to get a bounty on my head as corps decide they want my tech.  Now I'm hunted.  Deploying him will usually (eventually) result in a Brutus Sighting ending up online somewhere.  Or whatever.  Offset Brutuses however you like. Meanwhile, Brutus' player thrills every time he can deploy Brutus.  Is Brutus game breaking?  No.  Brutus is slow and stompy, and can't really "run".  Get him too far from his carrier and you risk needing to leave him behind, which would be Oh So Bad.  Brutus is also a major liability.

Stunt driver
The stunt driver archetype is the one that fills the Go Fast and Do Cool Stuff with the car.  If this character can't do Fast & Furious level stunts in game, they lose much of the point of buying into that Eurocar Westwind.  Yes they can out-accelerate and outmaneuver other drivers, but where's the "woo hoo" factor in doing that mechanically?  I recall seeing some rules defining "doing stunts" as a thing, but that's left very free form, and up to the table what that means.  Fair enough.  I would define some of those stunts into categories and then develop bonuses for how this type of rigger can execute them better than anyone else.  I am reminded of Chase Cards from some games where there's a deck of random challenges, and each participant in the chase has to roll to do the thing.  Make speed riggers better at these things.  Give them bonuses to doing stunt challenges, and let them reduce damage to the vehicle from failed attempts (maybe special Edge spends?).  Chases aren't just "let's judge some distance and terrain and maybe make attacks", it's "Oh crap, bridge is out.  I guess we're gonna have to jump this one guys!  Hang on!"

Example: Challenge card is "Low Bridge".  Picture on the card: a semi truck is crossing the road ahead.  Choice A: Slip under (requires a Pilot check with a Threshhold of X).  If you succeed you continue at speed, but the vehicle takes 1 damage, 3 on a fail and reduce speed by half (only speed riggers can spend edge to reduce these penalties--now they are special by comparison to anyone else). Choice B: Hard Turn.  You lose speed but risk no damage (the option for non-speed riggers), unless you fail, then you sideswipe it instead and take 3 damage. 

Meanwhile, behind you, the half the Ares goons fail the challenge and take damage or you see who their speed rigger is by how well they took that challenge.  Now we have a real challenge.  Cue that Vin Diesel smirk.

Drone Swarm
This rigger gets bonuses for running swarms specifically.  Drone swarms should feel special and dangerous.  Death of a thousand cuts if used offensively, but cheap and replaceable ultimately.  This kind of rigger would get bonuses for using swarm rules, and optimizing for that use with their deck.  Optimizing the RCC deck would be nice, but also limiting.  Built for swarms, it's even harder to control regular drones with now.  Penalize that option as an offset.  At the rigger level, make them used to the feel of the cloud of drones as they swarm towards a target, able to make the drone cloud form shapes and flow through tight spaces with no loss of speed.  Tricks only they can do.  The swarm gets meta stats so they can act like a single character, and even split into parts, and merge back again.  Think of the Stark drone swarm from the new Spider Man movie.  The swarm self-coordinates when given instructions and maybe even has it's own gestalt hive-mind effect where the collective Pilot rating is improved by the size of the swarm.  My point is, amp up the overall effect, and don't just let it be "swarm rules for any type of drone".   (Again, I'm super ignorant of how 5E does this, forgive me if this is already a thing.)

New Stuff
Why not let riggers actually be a version of Tony Stark?  Why not let them rig some battle armor?  Make the tech unable to be used without the rig (or at least be really clumsy), and then reward the suit rigger for specializing in suit rigging.  It doesn't need to fly in Shadowrun, but at least give it some Jump Jets to not crash land or to hop up a story or two.  It weighs too much for levitate to do much with, and it is counts as a super techie object when you target it with buff spells, so it's harder to augment, cloak, etc.  You can't just slap a fellow runner in one, as it loses many benefits unless you are wearing it directly (it doesn't fit right, they aren't interfaced, they may be accidentally fighting it as it moves, reduce the agility and mobility even if you are remote controlling it with a team member inside it). You can also apply the Brutus logic, or even just the fact of having to wear a power source  around limits it's range/capacity quite a bit.  Heavy hitter: Hell yes.  That's the fun part.  Short Range, limited duration, yes.  Weak spot: Power source.  EMP the thing and you are wearing a dumpster.  Have fun with that.

That's all I have at the moment, but I think that gets the idea across.  Dream big.

I think as far as getting from current state to this kind of model goes, these rigger types could be defined as Qualities that grant bonuses to these kinds of operations.  You could even gate them in tiers so that the Cocoon Rigger has to have "Master of the Web" as a quality in order to get the "Zen Response" quality that grants a perception boost and fast reaction to new events.

I'm not super-convinced the current rules structure of SR allows for the kind of high octane, remote mayhem, fly spy shenanigans you could attain with the rigger concepts in general, but I think there's room to write in some extras like these. 

Once again, sorry if 5E already did all this in some way and I'm the ignorant one.  Just couldn't get into that edition, so maybe it's already close and just needs some nudges.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (17:49:50/07-30-19)
One thing that'd potentially make having a driver rather useful would be VTOLS that are reasonably cheap enough to get in chargen.

Having a Rigger drop the team off on the roof via chopper, then swing back and participate in the rest of the run via drones would be useful so very often.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (18:58:38/07-30-19)
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Having a Rigger drop the team off on the roof via chopper, then swing back and participate in the rest of the run via drones would be useful so very often.

Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means). 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Sphinx on (21:15:29/07-30-19)
Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (22:42:56/07-30-19)
There you go!  I think what makes it harder to script in things like chases is that you (a) can't guarantee the group will have a rigger (B) that the player building the rigger has a chase-worthy vehicle.  Yay, there's a rigger, but oops, she's a Bulldog runner. 

With a Motor Pool feature/contact, they can pick what fits the mission profile.  Seems to allow the rigger and the GM more freedom.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (23:27:42/07-30-19)
I thought I should answer these also.

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1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

I can't speak to 5E, but I think riggers could stand be made to feel a little more special. Make it potent that they are on the team, not just an augment.  I think if they had some options to get out of the car, that could be good too.

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2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Hard to script these in without a consistent character with a fast vehicle.  As mentioned earlier, expanding the pool of options lets the rigger fit the profile better, and unlocks more options for the GM too.

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3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
Can't speak to 5E, but I think drones should excel at their design purpose in other ways than just a variation on the stat array.

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4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
Neither.  I would say they should be allowed to decide which focus they want.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
I would actually get the rigger almost entirely out of the Matrix.  I'm not down with the notion you have to go thru the matrix to run your drones.  This also extracts the rigger from the decker overlap, which would go some way towards keeping roles distinct.  It has some challenges I can foresee.  Here's some thoughts on that:
(A) Riggers need range using their own type of drone network, based around a transmitter that's based in their vehicle.  It's limited in range, like the old Signal rating attribute, so they have to get closer to the target, but unlike a decker, lack of Matrix stop being a problem for them.
(B) A rigger can choose to extend their range by going into the Matrix, and using matrix to run drones at a further reach, but this exposes them to being hacked via the matrix, Jumped In or not.
(C) How can deckers defend against drones?  Well, drones still have to have a signal receiver to accept commands or RCC feeds.  That can still be spoofed or snooped on.  More importantly though, drones have sensors which can be fed bad data.  All these are offline attacks though, at the EW level.  The decker isn't your best anti-drone screen.  Another rigger is.  They already have the kit to take on drone level EW and also have the gear to do sensor specific spoofs and bollixes like specialty chaff and flares that are calibrated to frag up drone sensors.  They already have the onboard signals that cue a drone into reboot mode, they just need to aim the tight beam link at the drone they are targeting and zap it.  Sensor warfare becomes a new domain for riggers to specialize in that deckers can only dabble in. 

No rigger on you team?  You should feel freaked about enemy drones chasing you down and having limited options for defense.  You can jam them, sure, but they should still have potent enough software included that their default dogbrain isn't hapless half-statted mess without a rigger.  Make combat drones terrifying, but shorter on range and slower and less agile without a rigger.

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

The idea of a rigger.  The ability to do movie level stunts with vehicles or field a menacing army of killbots, or supplement the team with a couple extra points of threat like dobermans.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

Being stuck in the car or waiting outside.  Drones solve some of this.  Getting an expensive ride fragged up without it being able to shine in a fight.  Witness the SCN 6e live play where the pickup gets subjected to grunt fire and is half destroyed from one exchange.  That was not a fun round for the player or character.

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8 ) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
As others have noted, each type priced with it's own intent.  Combat drones should be pricey.  Recon drones should be cheap.  I would also introduce the idea of salvage.  So you can take two scragged drones and use those parts to repair a third, or at least reduce the out of pocket costs.  For example, the drone provide a number of units of salvage equal to its remaining boxes of condition monitor or half its body, whichever is (more?).  You can have limits on how that salvage is applied, maybe it's only for drone of that same model, or same locomotion, or same type, or whatever.  Let riggers loot the fallen vehicles and drones to offset repair costs, or save up for a bad day proactively.  It also feeds that nice tinkerer idea mentioned by others, and adds to the list of things deckers can't do.

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

Can't speak to 5E, but it sounds like the costs are not aligned with the system guidelines on jobs in that edition.  I think one of the pains of being a rigger is that you buy into a certain build, but you have no idea if that build will be useful on the run.  With motor pool contacts, a salvage system and special tinkering rules, the rigger can now be a mechanical improvisational specialist who solves your problems with their specialty knowledge. 
Rigger: "What we need here is a drone that can cloak.  Let me make some calls."
Runners: "You know someone with those?" 
Rigger: "Don't need to.  I know where to get the parts.  Gimme a couple hours."

Make the rigger's investment in versatility and you have a transporter for all occasions, not just a few.  Who will you want on your team?  The guy who won't get out of his van, or the guy who can rustle up a hovercraft and slap an EM system in it if that's what the job needs?  Vehicular fixer in both senses of the word.

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10) Fill in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

See above, I think.  Now I can specialize in things like smuggling because I never use the same vehicle twice, and I can improvise some new tricks on the fly if they upgraded the border since the last time I crossed it.  I probably have my "rigger kit" I can bring along to adapt any vehicle to at least half-arsed neural control to some benefit if it's not rigged, plus a custom EM/ECCM suite that takes up a passenger space worth of room so I can run my drones and spoof and spam the enemy ones we encounter.  If that kit makes it out of the flaming wreck, I can jack a new ride and have it halfway rig ready in about an hour.  Less if I roll well and you stop asking me dumb questions while I work. 

Hold this cannister of superfuel while I rig the engine to not explode when I inject it straight into the converter.  I need to make sure we can clear the moat on the other side of the security fence after we crash through it.  I told you we were doing that, right?  Why else did you think I said we needed "burner car"?  How are we getting out again?  This facility has a garage doesn't it?  It'll be fine.

That would feel fun, no matter what we're doing.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (23:40:41/07-30-19)
Oh, and also now take that same rigger I described and let them drive their "baby" vehicle that is customized to their exacting specs.  That puppy should feel ridiculously potent by comparison to anything else, with some gestalt abilities not just from customization tweaks only they can provide, but from the vehicle rig as well.  When they do take her out for a spin, it's game ON.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (23:44:47/07-30-19)
Why not let riggers actually be a version of Tony Stark?  Why not let them rig some battle armor?  Make the tech unable to be used without the rig (or at least be really clumsy), and then reward the suit rigger for specializing in suit rigging.  It doesn't need to fly in Shadowrun, but at least give it some Jump Jets to not crash land or to hop up a story or two.  It weighs too much for levitate to do much with, and it is counts as a super techie object when you target it with buff spells, so it's harder to augment, cloak, etc.  You can't just slap a fellow runner in one, as it loses many benefits unless you are wearing it directly (it doesn't fit right, they aren't interfaced, they may be accidentally fighting it as it moves, reduce the agility and mobility even if you are remote controlling it with a team member inside it). You can also apply the Brutus logic, or even just the fact of having to wear a power source  around limits it's range/capacity quite a bit.  Heavy hitter: Hell yes.  That's the fun part.  Short Range, limited duration, yes.  Weak spot: Power source.  EMP the thing and you are wearing a dumpster.  Have fun with that.

I've been combing the rules looking for ways to do exactly this since I started playing a Rigger. It would definitely not be an all occasions thing, but if you know you're going in loud, it would be pretty awesome if the rigger could literally be the tank for a short while.

Oh, and also now take that same rigger I described and let them drive their "baby" vehicle that is customized to their exacting specs.  That puppy should feel ridiculously potent by comparison to anything else, with some gestalt abilities not just from customization tweaks only they can provide, but from the vehicle rig as well.  When they do take her out for a spin, it's game ON.

Agreed. The vehicle mod rules in Rigger 5.0 are clunky, and making the vehicle you want is near impossible without starting in debt.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Michael Chandra on (23:45:54/07-30-19)
Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.
Wasn't there the favour system in sr5 where one kind of favour was borrowing X worth of equipment?
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (23:48:12/07-30-19)
Wasn't there the favour system in sr5 where one kind of favour was borrowing X worth of equipment?

I think so, but I read it as a one-time deal. The suggested "Motorpool" contact sounds like a more stable connection for vehicles/drones/upgrades.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Michael Chandra on (00:15:58/07-31-19)
Yeah so basically a contact with preferred payment nuyen who focuses on favours?
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (13:59:04/07-31-19)
Yeah so basically a contact with preferred payment nuyen who focuses on favours?

I mean, you could frame it that way. But in my mind, the role would be closer to a Fixer than someone doing you a favor. A favor implies they are going above and beyond on your behalf, whereas a Fixer takes your money in exchange for goods and services (in this case rental services). They aren't doing you any favors, and with average loyalty (2-3) you would expect them to want what they rented out to you back in the same condition you got it in (or else incur fees/beatings/shortened life expectancy).
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:20:00/08-05-19)
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(

I'm still waiting on the PDF to verify for myself.

Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.

20%?  Really?  Lemme guess, you are one of those people that think the vehicle repair rules in 5e are just fine, aren't you?

The cheapest VTOL vehicle in 5e is 85k Nuyen.  Why VTOL?  Because it was the vehicle type that inspired this line of thought - as teams really need access to them from time to time.

20% of that is 17k Nuyen.  Sure, it gets refunded if nothing happens to the vehicle, but the Rigger still needs 17k Nuyen up font.

And that brings us to the question; "If the Rigger is capable of having 17k Nuyen (or more) available at the drop of a hat...  Why are they running again?"

Of course, the 850 Nuyen per day isn't too bad.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: penllawen on (11:29:44/08-05-19)
Typhus -- I love that post.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Marcus on (12:03:31/08-05-19)
ISP you do understand if you buy the PDF to verify you're supporting 6e right?
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:44:43/08-05-19)
ISP you do understand if you buy the PDF to verify you're supporting 6e right?

Seriously?  You think that really needed to be said?  Wow....
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (15:12:52/08-05-19)
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(



IMO the Vehicle Control Rig is a mechanical trap option.  A high reaction Street Samurai with a 5 in Piloting will have the same dice pool as a Jumped in Rigger with a Level 3 Control Rig. 

So your racing scenario upthread doesn't even need the arbitrary restraints.  Give 'em both a Racing bike, let the Rigger Jump in, it's basically even odds. 

The VCR gives +1 Dice to Vehicle tests but you've got to be jumped in so you're stuck using Intuition.  Reaction is a lot easier to boost than Intuition so the Samurai can be +/- 1 or 2 of the Riggers pool for any Piloting tests. 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (17:30:14/08-05-19)
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Typhus -- I love that post.

Thanks!  It's going in my homebrew game, whenever I can get it all drafted.  I keep finding new ideas. 

Speaking of which, it will probably be the only way I play SR going forward.  Someone on these boards, and I think JMH himself elsewhere, used the term "experiment" in reference to this edition.  Seems like that experiment has detonated in less than a week.

From what I am reading,  I can't see myself ever wanting to run or play this game.  That makes three editions running now that have been not for me on the same basis: Extremely poor editing, the continuation of an unfortunate writing style that adds to confusion, numerous rules I don't agree with even in full context, and a glut of rules I don't need to run the game.  I think I am done with CGL's ideas on Shadowrun. 

I will probably lurk around the forums a bit, maybe soak up some inspiration for homebrewing, but I'm not going to be a CGL customer any further.  To release a book in this poor a quality of shape, much less to have the gall to charge more for a fancy cover version of it is the last step on a bridge too far for me.  It's extremely unethical.   

I have two different groups of gamers I play with.  I've already advised them to avoid a purchase of this, or support this company further.  Thank you to the folks who engaged me on this forum, I do appreciate your time and insights being shared. 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (21:21:38/08-05-19)
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(



IMO the Vehicle Control Rig is a mechanical trap option.  A high reaction Street Samurai with a 5 in Piloting will have the same dice pool as a Jumped in Rigger with a Level 3 Control Rig. 

So your racing scenario upthread doesn't even need the arbitrary restraints.  Give 'em both a Racing bike, let the Rigger Jump in, it's basically even odds. 

The VCR gives +1 Dice to Vehicle tests but you've got to be jumped in so you're stuck using Intuition.  Reaction is a lot easier to boost than Intuition so the Samurai can be +/- 1 or 2 of the Riggers pool for any Piloting tests.

But can a Street Sam regenerate by doing donuts in the parking lot.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:06:07/08-06-19)
*takes more notes*

Super useful stuff thusfar.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Beta on (09:12:29/08-06-19)
Typhus, I really loved your points, summarized by:

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Make the rigger's investment in versatility and you have a transporter for all occasions, not just a few.  Who will you want on your team?  The guy who won't get out of his van, or the guy who can rustle up a hovercraft and slap an EM system in it if that's what the job needs?  Vehicular fixer in both senses of the word.

Quote
Hold this cannister of superfuel while I rig the engine to not explode when I inject it straight into the converter.  I need to make sure we can clear the moat on the other side of the security fence after we crash through it.  I told you we were doing that, right?  Why else did you think I said we needed "burner car"?  How are we getting out again?  This facility has a garage doesn't it?  It'll be fine.

This sums up so nicely what I was reaching for, and would make riggers so much fun.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (13:48:23/08-06-19)
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(



IMO the Vehicle Control Rig is a mechanical trap option.  A high reaction Street Samurai with a 5 in Piloting will have the same dice pool as a Jumped in Rigger with a Level 3 Control Rig. 

So your racing scenario upthread doesn't even need the arbitrary restraints.  Give 'em both a Racing bike, let the Rigger Jump in, it's basically even odds. 

The VCR gives +1 Dice to Vehicle tests but you've got to be jumped in so you're stuck using Intuition.  Reaction is a lot easier to boost than Intuition so the Samurai can be +/- 1 or 2 of the Riggers pool for any Piloting tests.

But can a Street Sam regenerate by doing donuts in the parking lot.

As well as Riggers can.  Stupid Edge tricks are supposed to be stopped by the GM, and they are not unique to Riggers.  Just pay some street urchin to punch you a hundred times.  All the Regens!

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: dezmont on (13:22:06/08-08-19)
Yeah really the 'bag of rats' concept is old as dirt and while I will say time and time again a systems flaws should not be ignored because good GMs can fix them, assuming the GM has two braincells to rub together is a safe bet and you NEED GMs to be willing to adjudicate things like that. Like RPGs cannot function without judgement calls so it is totally fine to put in judgement calls as long as the GMs have the guidelines to make sure they can make them easily. Ironically, Edge's failings isn't in PCs abusing it because its generally easy to see when a roll advances the PC's goals and when it is an edge game, but in the fact that PCs interacting with it in good faith create a ton of really hard judgement calls.

To put it another way: In 5e it is strictly impossible to preform vertical movement without magic, climbing rolls, or jumping. Most GMs managed to make the judgement call that stairs worked and you were not allowed to treat a 4 foot tall wall as just one big set of stairs you could ignore, and it isn't a failing of the system to not make the judgement call on stairs for the GM. But while 6e avoids the bag of rats problem just fine, it fails in the sense that 'honest' attempts to gain edge require you to track so much nonsense.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (13:34:29/08-08-19)
I just looked over the costs of the Control Rigs and the RCCs, and holy drek! It irritates me that a decker can get a Tier 6 Cyberjack and a near top-end Cyberjack out of chargen for roughly the same cost as a Tier 3 Control Rig...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: dezmont on (14:45:09/08-08-19)
I just looked over the costs of the Control Rigs and the RCCs, and holy drek! It irritates me that a decker can get a Tier 6 Cyberjack and a near top-end Cyberjack out of chargen for roughly the same cost as a Tier 3 Control Rig...

Yes, the 'ware costs in 6e are, in a word, atrocious and do not reflect nominal utility at all.

Like I get why they tried it, in 4e there was no real 'ware buy in for either of the 'tech roles' so everyone just did them, making specialists in those roles really weak, but the tech roles suffered in 5e because they were choked out on resources and this just made it worse. Like yeah, you want non-trivial buy ins but the buy ins should basically take your entire PC. Especially because the reason everyone rigged and hacked in 4e wasn't because it was nuyen cheap but because skill pools literally didn't matter because either they weren't relevant to success (Rigging) or you could buy a program that beat the decker. And in both cases the outcome wasn't really worth the 'cost' of a PC compared to running an extra mage, face, or samurai.

Basically they are focusing too much on the gate, rather than investment to value. It doesn't REALLY matter what something costs as long as the investment is worth it enough to justify the expense because it is the best value on some axis but not so cheap that you will do it automatically because the value is too good, like how 4e pocket deckers just were insanely high value often in the realms of 200 karma worth of skills and atts for a paltry 20k nuyen.

Like right now riggers are too expensive for what they do AND they don't do anything better than any other role. So they just are bad. Even if they got cheaper the fact that riggers and deckers aren't good for anything, any contributions they provide can be emulated by other roles (ex: Just sneaking past cameras rather than making a test to loop them) kinda hampers the role existing.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (19:34:04/08-09-19)
I just looked over the costs of the Control Rigs and the RCCs, and holy drek! It irritates me that a decker can get a Tier 6 Cyberjack and a near top-end Cyberjack out of chargen for roughly the same cost as a Tier 3 Control Rig...
the design intent seem to be that Riggers are supposed to prioritize Resources while Deckers are not forced to spend as much resources anymore (but they now have access to far less essence)

Deckers in this edition are also not really skill intensive, either (need 2 skills, maybe 3 with engineering if you also want access to gunnery and matrix damage repairing).

Is maybe the intent that Deckers should branch out; maybe Muscle+Decker, Adept+Decker, Face+Decker...?
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (12:13:19/08-11-19)
I just looked over the costs of the Control Rigs and the RCCs, and holy drek! It irritates me that a decker can get a Tier 6 Cyberjack and a near top-end Cyberjack out of chargen for roughly the same cost as a Tier 3 Control Rig...
the design intent seem to be that Riggers are supposed to prioritize Resources while Deckers are not forced to spend as much resources anymore (but they now have access to far less essence)

Deckers in this edition are also not really skill intensive, either (need 2 skills, maybe 3 with engineering if you also want access to gunnery and matrix damage repairing).

Is maybe the intent that Deckers should branch out; maybe Muscle+Decker, Adept+Decker, Face+Decker...?

This seems to be the case. In CRB6, they only list 4 main roles at the beginning of the Character Generation section (Arcane Specialist, Face, Street Sam, and Tech Specialist). They don't discuss archetypes until after character generation, so it seems they are telling players to make more multipurpose PCs.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:50:00/08-11-19)
Consolidating skills not only disincentivizes one dimensional characters, it also is a direct help to riggers. There's only two skills in the niche.  You can accordingly afford a lower skill priority which helps in the other ares.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (13:14:16/08-11-19)
Consolidating skills not only disincentivizes one dimensional characters, it also is a direct help to riggers. There's only two skills in the niche.  You can accordingly afford a lower skill priority which helps in the other ares.

I agree about the skill consolidation, to a point. Having less skills to choose from does allow characters to branch out more easily, but it also makes skill overlap an issue. And in a game where almost every obstacle already has a meat, magic, and tech answer to it, it feels like characters are being encouraged to be jack-of-all-trades. Which then asks the question, why do I need a team?

As for Riggers, I think they are worse off this time around. you are encouraged to focus on mental attributes to boost rigging, but also need to puff up your physical abilities to have a chance of operating/living outside your drones/vehicles. I see almost every Rigger being built the same:

A) Resources
B) Attributes
C) Skills
D) Race
E) Magic

And then they still have to dump copious amounts of money into their control rig and RCC, before even getting to other gear/implants/vehicles/drones.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:56:17/08-11-19)
Well, riggers are encouraged in 6WE to have decker-like stats.  Physical stats don't matter while you're jumped in (not even Reaction) and if you're driving odds are you're jumped in.

You can do the same old decker tricks to get around wimpy physical stats: augmentations. Get yourself a good cyberarm and you're all good to go for shooting.  Muscle Replacement is much more reasonable this edition as well.  If you're resources A or B these are well within reason.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (07:58:24/08-12-19)
IMO 6E Riggers are divided into two distinct types.  Drone Riggers will have to look a lot like Deckers as they're going to be the only worthwhile EWAR target for hostile hackers.  They'll be able to jump into vehicles if they want. 

If all you're ever going to use for drones is an occasional Fly Spy recon drone, then build a Wheelman that is basically a Samurai or a Physical Adept and just ignore the RCC and VCR.  You're not a Rigger but you can drive as good as one.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (11:40:47/08-12-19)
...  You're not a Rigger but you can drive as good as one.

I'm curious what makes you say this.

Meatbody/AR driving: You get to use Reaction, which is an easier buff than Intuition.  What else am I missing?  Because the Control Rig's dice pool bonus basically compensates for lost potential Reaction and Agility augmentations, and stacks with any Intuition and Logic augmentations you ARE able to score.  Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (12:26:56/08-12-19)
Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.
That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:29:49/08-12-19)
Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.
That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.

It does mean that you should usually be going into combat with a full up edge pool.

And it also means that you're that much more likely to actually GET those 2 edge points per combat round.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: duckman on (12:39:44/08-12-19)
It does mean that you should usually be going into combat with a full up edge pool.

And it also means that you're that much more likely to actually GET those 2 edge points per combat round.

You don't treat driving and the subsequent combat as separate scenes, SSDR?  Our group normally has a scene break there where edge would be reset.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:47:49/08-12-19)
Potentially, sure.

Potentially, not.

Scene breaks are pretty much GM fiat.  Still, noone has easier access to gaining Edge than Riggers.  Literally: anything I do gives me edge! Even if a fight breaks out soon after an edge reset, if the rigger was trying to infiltrate some facility with a sneaky drone, or trying "drive casual" while parking nearby, that's more edge.   A GM would have to reset edge, then immediately start an ambush... and that's basically not very cool way to handle rigger edge gains.

There's already mechanics in place to limit edge gain, which is necessary for characters that can easily farm it.  If there's no opposition or serious consequences for failure, the GM can withhold edge.  So no doing donuts in the parking lot just to cap edge out.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (13:38:57/08-12-19)
...  You're not a Rigger but you can drive as good as one.

I'm curious what makes you say this.

Meatbody/AR driving: You get to use Reaction, which is an easier buff than Intuition.  What else am I missing?  Because the Control Rig's dice pool bonus basically compensates for lost potential Reaction and Agility augmentations, and stacks with any Intuition and Logic augmentations you ARE able to score.  Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

So, a few things.

- A wired up Street Sam or a Mojo'd Adept will have 5d6 initiative dice, meaning an extra action over the 4d6 that a Rigger gets while jumped in.
- The bonuses from augs/magic can match or even exceed the +3 from an insanely expensive (both nuyen and Essence) Rating 3 Control Rig.
- The edge you get is a bonus edge for that test only, so no you cannot store edge from the Control Rig.
- Control Rigs no longer lower the thresholds for Piloting tests, so everybody is rolling against the same target numbers.

All in all, the Street Sam or the Adept look to be better options.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (13:39:47/08-12-19)
Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.
That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.

Pretty much this.  Mechanical ways to gain Edge are plentiful.  Yes, sometimes the Jumped in Rigger with a VCR will get 1 more Edge when the Reaction based pilot would not.  But 3 Essence and 270k Nuyen would be far and away the most expensive Edge gaining gear I can find.  I really question the mechanical worth of the Vehicle Control Rig given the 2 Edge per turn limit.  And the rarity of Vehicle control tests.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (14:01:48/08-12-19)
I'm curious what makes you say this.

So, a few things.

- A wired up Street Sam or a Mojo'd Adept will have 5d6 initiative dice, meaning an extra action over the 4d6 that a Rigger gets while jumped in.

Granted, Riggers aren't meant to displace the combat specialists as the premiere combatants. Still, +5d6 is the hard cap anyone gets and arguably, a Rigger isn't restricted to the hot sim dice bonus. Remains to be seen/clarified, but augmentations and/or drugs may still allow a character in hot sim to hit 5d6.

Quote
- The bonuses from augs/magic can match or even exceed the +3 from an insanely expensive (both nuyen and Essence) Rating 3 Control Rig.

Yes, but not by much.  Augmentations are capped at +4. Hard stop. Yes agility and reaction are easier to augment than logic and intuition, but there are some options.  And if you bring magic into the picture, a teammate (or a burned out rigger mage) can cast Increase Attribute. Relevant attributes are different, but they still all cap at +4 from augmentations.  Furthermore, you've also got a hard cap of +4 from bonus dice on any skill test (pg 39) so you're not going to do much better than a Control Rig.

Quote
- The edge you get is a bonus edge for that test only, so no you cannot store edge from the Control Rig.

Per page 283:  "When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone,
the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool
bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point
of Edge."

No use-or-lose restriction is given.

Quote
- Control Rigs no longer lower the thresholds for Piloting tests, so everybody is rolling against the same target numbers.

That is true.  The edge gain replaces this.  Someone with Reaction as tricked out as a Rigger's Intuition is, with equal skill, roll comparable dice pools before factoring in gear.  Control rigs give riggers more dice still, or maybe just makes up for an unaugmented Intuition vs an augmented Reaction. Quantitatively, the non-rigger can at best match a rigger dice pool for dice pool.  The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.  Sure you can give your sammie or adept gear or augmentations that let them gain edge too, but not necessarily edge gains for driving the vehicle.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (14:33:28/08-12-19)
The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.
In other words, the rigger has no meaningful advantage.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (15:08:03/08-12-19)
Quote
The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.  Sure you can give your sammie or adept gear or augmentations that let them gain edge too, but not necessarily edge gains for driving the vehicle.

But not necessarily not edge gains for driving the vehicle either.

It's a very expensive "maybe", even if the maybe is "probably".  It's still not a guarantee.  Lowered thresholds are guarantees.  Riggers have mechanically lost functionality.  You can put a bow on it, but that's the facts here.  Riggers are no better at driving vehicles than anyone else, unless they spend Edge, which anyone else can do too.  Riggers just *may* be able to do so more often.  That is neither a solid mechanical reward worthy of the investment nor an emotional reward at the table.  Maybe the bonus to drone controlling is worth the rig, but for driving?  Let the sammie take the wheel.  I'll run the drones instead.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (15:20:55/08-12-19)
I guess I should update my avatar to a picture of Mugatu, because listening to "but there's no value in gaining edge" or "Riggers were somehow better than adepts or technomancers at driving before in 5e" makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Edge is the most important meta resource in 6th edition.  Getting edge for rolling any dice at all (while jumped in) is HUGE.  It makes up for having a comparable dice pool with someone who's not getting edge simply for rolling the dice.  Heck, it makes up for even having a smaller dice pool, if that were the case.

And hello? Riggers are now just as good as adepts and technomancers at driving? That's a fragging improvement over 5e, where Riggers were worse.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (17:45:14/08-12-19)
A jumped in rigger will be better at driving than muscle with piloting skill and tricked out reaction plus initiative, but in SR5 the direct dice pool vs threshold difference was huge. In SR6 the difference mostly lies in more reliable edge gain (but, depending on how much you value edge boosts and edge actions, this is also huge - not just as easy to compare to bigger dice pools and smaller thresholds).

Muscle characters will have a hard time gaining edge during a street race. In fact not sure what they could do to qualify for edge gain at all. Normally you seem to gain edge during social situations and from AR/DR during combat or hacking. None of that applies (unless perhaps you are shooting each other during the street race)

Beyond that there seem to be mostly qualities, gear and augmentations.

There are no qualities that give you extra edge in this situation.
And there is no gear that provide you with edge while racing, either.

The only augmentation that grant edge is the Control Rig (and it seem to generate edge very quick!)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: incrdbil on (19:16:55/08-12-19)
on the bright side, I've now come up with a million ides for helping riggers in my 5e game.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (20:25:22/08-12-19)
Considering the average base threshold for on-road vehicle driving is 3-4, and both damage and speed intervals lower your dice pool, a Rigger getting a lower threshold would be truly HUGE. And it would set them far apart from anything a Street Sam or and Adept could hope to hit.

Although, using the current rules, you can get a total dice pool of 20 for being jumped in to your Chosen Vehicle Type, so long as you dump 34 karma into Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), Aptitude (Piloting), Specialization (Chosen Vehicle Type), and Expertise (Chosen Vehicle Type). You just won't have much of a character beyond being able to do the one thing.

EDIT: A pool of 20 dice starts becoming less relevant once you speed up (-1 per speed interval) and start taking damage (+1 threshold per three boxes of damage). A Ford Americar starts with 14 HP, a speed interval of 20 meters per combat round, and handling thresholds of 4/5. Driving at 80 meters per round (60 mph) drops the pool to 16 (5.3 hits), and taking 6 points of damage raises the thresholds to 6/7. Its a good thing Riggers get all that extra edge, because they are going to have to manipulate the hell out of their dice pools to not crash.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hobbes on (09:54:51/08-13-19)
Reaction pilot vs Jumped in Rigger the dice pools can be equal.  With a Reflex Recorder the Reaction based pilot gets to 17 dice, the Jumped in Rigger gets to 16 Dice.  Basically equal. 

Edge gain.  GM Fiat, do something Awesome get Edge, applies to both.

Tactical Advantages such as Low Light in the Dark, Pre-planned and practiced route, Street Bike in a crowded road, ect, ect, ect, applies to both.

AR/DR from shooting at stuff or being shot at applies to both.

Analytical Mind from using Logic plus Engineering to fire mounted weapons, applies to both.  IMO this is the main advantage of the Jumped in Rigger as they'll likely have more dumped physical stats to pump up Logic.  However the virtues of dumping meat stats in order to get a few  more dice of Vehicle Gunnery are debatable.

Reaction based pilot has 4 ways to gain edge.  How often the Jumped in Rigger gets Edge when the Reaction based pilot wouldn't will be very table dependent, but a dedicated wheelman / Reaction based pilot should be generating 1 or 2 Edge per turn.  Just like any other PC.

I presume in 3 or 4 years when the Rigger book comes out we'll get a list of Edge Actions that only Jumped in Pilots can use. 

And all of the above aside, a well build combat character that invests in Piloting will be within a couple dice of a Rigger with just a Skill Point investment.  Unless your table is the exception and Vehicle tests are common, odds are a Street Sam or Physical Adept will be able to handle the Vehicle tests for the team.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (10:17:51/08-13-19)
Because 6we caps bonus dice at +4, the size of dice pools are kind of plateau'd.  Skill + Attribute (+augmentation) +up to 4 dice. Applies to everyone and everything.

Since there's little quantitative difference between the meatdriver and the rigger, it's a question of qualitative difference.  And that's the edge gain.  Yes, edge gain is ultimately GM fiat.  But the GM would have to be deliberately screwing the Rigger's player in order for the meat-driver to have any kind of comparable edge generation.

BTW vehicle tests should be common? Make a piloting test? obviously.  What appears to not be as obvious is gunnery tests, dodge tests, etc are all also vehicle tests...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (11:33:33/08-13-19)
Quote
Because 6we caps bonus dice at +4, the size of dice pools are kind of plateau'd.  Skill + Attribute (+augmentation) +up to 4 dice. Applies to everyone and everything.

That part is news to me.  I knew about attributes, but you are saying it's across the board?  So for example, I get L4 Muscle Toner, for +4 AGI.  If I then pick up a smartlink, I get no benefit from it's +1 bonus when shooting, because I've already got my +4 dice?

Or are "bonus dice" different than "dice from augmentation"?  I'm confused now.

If so, can you point me to that ruling?  I missed the blanket application idea. 
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (11:40:56/08-13-19)
Sorry for making it confusing.

Augmentations have always been capped at +4, that's not new to 6we.

What IS new to 6we is bonuses from sources other than skill + attribute are capped at +4.

So if you have Agility 4 (8 ) thanks to level 4 Muscle Toner, that's just giving 8 dice in the attribute portion of the Skill + attribute formula.

Things like the Control Rig giving +Rating dice are what's capped at +4. (Ref pg 39)  So, for example, you can't get +5 dice from Reflex Recorders, Improved Ability Adept power, and similar. It also means if you have a rating 3 control rig, you can only get +1 more die bonuses from elsewhere, such as Reflex Recorder.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (12:11:38/08-13-19)
Very confusing.  I don't disagree with upper end limits though, for sure.  Mega dice pools the bane of 5E.

Restating you to make sure I am following.

I can actually get:

[natural attribute + 4 augmentation] + natural skill + [4 total die from any other source including augmentation to skill]

Meaning there are two caps to observe.

Do I have that right?
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:13:24/08-13-19)
Very confusing.  I don't disagree with upper end limits though, for sure.  Mega dice pools the bane of 5E.

Restating you to make sure I am following.

I can actually get:

[natural attribute + 4 augmentation] + natural skill + [4 total die from any other source including augmentation to skill]

Meaning there are two caps to observe.

Do I have that right?

Yep.  If you have a Rating 3 control rig, don't buy +2 dice worth of skill bonuses.

A non-rigger can of course also get up to +4 dice. While that'll give bonuses just as large (or larger) than a Control Rig, they don't give edge.

Edit: Removed faulty example.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (12:24:57/08-13-19)
 :o

I hadn't realized RefRecs were now ranked.  Being able to just buy 4 ranks in a skill...not sure how I feel about that yet.  But whatever.  At least there's a cap.  That's an overall improvement.

Anyway, if that's the blanket rule, I would suggest to the errata team that be more explicitly stated up front.  I have some how missed it several times now.  I got pieces of it, but the whole thing needs to be called out more readily.

So, upper end dice pool is exceptional Elf Agi 8(12) + 7 exceptional skill +4 dice from (Whatever else)  23 dice is the worst dice pool scenario possible (so far anyway)?  (Since Bod and Str don't pair with any skills, that is).

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:40:03/08-13-19)
Ah, double checked.  Reflex Recorders aren't ranked; they only give +1.  Bad example.  Pretend I said Improved Ability Adept power instead :D

Regardless... all bonuses to skill rolls combined from however many sources can't go past +4. Per pg 39: "They can be modified by
spells, gear, and other effects, but their augmented
increase can never be more than +4."

Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:47:35/08-13-19)
So, upper end dice pool is exceptional Elf Agi 8(12) + 7 exceptional skill +4 dice from (Whatever else)  23 dice is the worst dice pool scenario possible (so far anyway)?  (Since Bod and Str don't pair with any skills, that is).

Getting off topic... but more or less yes that's right.  Max dice pool for chargen seems to be by my reckoning: 10 (14) (maximum attribute, then hit augmented bonus) + 9 (7 skill plus specialization) + 4 (skill bonus cap). 27 dice, no way to break that limit without raising skills beyond 7.

Of course in a combat sense, max agility possible is 12 so that maximum munchkin'd out elf attack pool is 25 dice.  (bear in mind that in 6we, skills can potentially pair with attributes they don't normally use.  For example, climbing uses Athletics + Strength instead of Agility, and so on.)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Typhus on (13:27:53/08-13-19)
OK, thanks for the clarifications.  Now, where are the various rule entries that cover this?   :)

(We can move this to the Rules board, totally OT now)
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Hephaestus on (14:02:54/08-13-19)
So, the Control Rig issue aside, the other big issue I see is the lack of rules for vehicles/drones.

- There are no mods beyond weapon mounts, rigger interfaces, and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
- There is no entry for cost/availability for Pilot programs.
- There is no language/rules for drone swarms (and no, I do not count the Grunt Rules. They have no language for program sharing and force all drones to be identically equipped).
- Vehicles/Drones only get program slots up to their Pilot rating/2 rounded up.

So while the merits of being a Rigger seem dubious at best, what they get to use in any situation is less useful than in previous editions. Hopefully Rigger 6.0 is one of the first splat books (and is actually reviewed/edited/extensively play-tested prior to release) or Riggers are going to be even more rare then they are now.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (17:15:25/08-13-19)
...and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
Are you thinking about manual operation of weapon mounts?
This was a thing in SR5 core as well...

This basically mean that the LMG is door mounted or roof mounted with a hatch or whatever so your street samurai can operate it with his firearms skill and his agility rating (as an alternative to having the rigger or decker remote operating it using their engineering + logic).
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:47:15/08-13-19)
Actually, you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons. Page 200. Non-mounted attacks are as normal.

Something else: We're currently debating page 39's augmented increase to skills. I believe it does not apply to dicepool modifiers but only to explicit skill rank modifiers (aka Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability), but opinions differ.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:20:28/08-13-19)
Something else: We're currently debating page 39's augmented increase to skills. I believe it does not apply to dicepool modifiers but only to explicit skill rank modifiers (aka Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability), but opinions differ.

Indeed, I think I'm going to have be done with the thread to avoid NDA issues.  At least until next wave of errata comes out... but by then there'll probably be new threads about Riggers' Plights, neh? :D
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (19:23:03/08-13-19)
you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons.
So basically pretty pointless adding manual operation on vehicle mounted weapons as gunner would still operate it with engineering + mental attribute. Interesting...
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (20:07:59/08-13-19)
...and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
Are you thinking about manual operation of weapon mounts?

Traditionally, Manual Controls were for the vehicle piloting.  It was a defense against your ride getting hacked...

Since the public at large are losing interest waiting for the PDF, I can't verify the intention of the manual controls that Hephaestus references.  So, shrug.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Michael Chandra on (00:00:27/08-14-19)
you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons.
So basically pretty pointless adding manual operation on vehicle mounted weapons as gunner would still operate it with engineering + mental attribute. Interesting...
Eh, not having to handle a commlink in a carchase sounds nice. Also Guardian Spirits might like the gun. Though the range of Elemental Attack got buffed, it's still better sometimes to not use a low-AR attack.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (00:03:07/08-14-19)
Did they add guardian spirits to the crb. That’s usually in the magic expansion book under the section like the old spirits but better section.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: markelphoenix on (08:30:07/08-14-19)
Actually, you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons. Page 200. Non-mounted attacks are as normal.

Something else: We're currently debating page 39's augmented increase to skills. I believe it does not apply to dicepool modifiers but only to explicit skill rank modifiers (aka Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability), but opinions differ.

Yeah, this needs to be clarified...has some major implications either way it falls.
Title: Re: The Riggers Plight
Post by: Xenon on (14:02:20/08-14-19)
Eh, not having to handle a commlink in a carchase sounds nice
Handle a commlink...?

Unless it changed in SR6, this is how you would normally interact with a wireless device in Shadowrun: