Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Wenlocke on <02-16-19/1229:29>

Title: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Wenlocke on <02-16-19/1229:29>
I've been working on a few builds lately, including combat adepts of various stripes, and this is about the only time I find the priority system a little restrictive (yes, Sum to 10 and karmabuy exists, but that's a separate thing.)

So far, without being able to dump the E into metatype, I'm finding E tends to end up either being skills or resources, which is leading to a pattern of adepts that are either excruciatingly poor, or focussed on  a couple of skills and that's it.

Anybody got any recommendations? I know skills E is heavily... optimised, but in terms of long term efficiency, does it work out better to go this way early on and actually be able to have possessions, lifestyle and gear worth a damn (and rely on run karma to build skills) or are the extra skills better early game?
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: adzling on <02-16-19/1234:22>
Skills E with JoaT for quick expansion post chargen.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-16-19/1311:53>
Skills E with JoaT for quick expansion post chargen.

There's a lot riding on the expected nature of the campaign.  How often are you playing? Will the GM be more or less generous with Karma or Nuyen based on Core rulebook suggested rewards?

But without factoring any of that, I'd generally lean towards Resources even though JoaT does go a long way in lowering the curve to bringing deficient skillsets up to speed.  Still, it really only works if your attributes and adept powers already are carrying their loads towards getting your dice pools where you'll be wanting them to be (12+ for anything you want to be reasonably sure you'll overcome opposition or serious penalties).

Generally I'd prefer to go with Resources E.  Nuyen is usually easier to obtain than Karma, and if you're eschewing augmentations you really don't have any big expenses beyond Foci.  If your adept has Face-y skills/abilities, that'll work as an analogue to JoaT towards wringing extra • from looting/shaking Mr Johnson down for more payment.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-16-19/1319:41>
For me its resources.  I'm not a fan of the augmented adept thematically.  Also I find skills e hard to buy in on the character concept. I can understand poor, but only knowing 3 active skills as an adult is a bit trying. Honestly I have a hard time buying D skills as well, but so be it.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Wenlocke on <02-16-19/1356:37>
For me its resources.  I'm not a fan of the augmented adept thematically.  Also I find skills e hard to buy in on the character concept. I can understand poor, but only knowing 3 active skills as an adult is a bit trying. Honestly I have a hard time buying D skills as well, but so be it.

I'm not a fan of augmented adepts either, if I'm honest. I know that in mechanics terms, magic/adepts and augs can be a potent and efficient combination, but I prefer my magically active characters to actually expend some effort at keeping their body/magic integrity intact. It just feels thematically better, unless the theme is the burnout.

I think my main problem with resources E is that it imposes a different thematic set of restrictions on your character (heck, even a decent level fake sin costs more than you get for E resources,) so you are without good fake ID, probably no vehicle,  low to squatter lifestyle, very few backup options, all of which, under many circumstances, is more difficult to overcome than "I know a bloke who does that thing that I don't."
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-16-19/1359:25>
Well aside from Magic, whatever you assign to E means you'll have to be spending chargen Karma towards shoring it up.  6,000• doesn't give you enough budget to cover the basics nor does 18 skill points.  Either way you're spending karma on it...

You make your choices and you deal with them :)
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Ajax on <02-16-19/1446:39>
Resources E and a fistful of Karma will cover a decent suit, a cheap Ďlink, a squat, and a pair of pistols. Everything you need to get your John Woo on... Use your payday from your first run (or two) to buy your first fake identity. Cash is the easiest resource to acquire during play.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-16-19/1515:57>
Resources E and a fistful of Karma will cover a decent suit, a cheap Ďlink, a squat, and a pair of pistols. Everything you need to get your John Woo on... Use your payday from your first run (or two) to buy your first fake identity. Cash is the easiest resource to acquire during play.

Yeah all most adepts really needs to fit their concept is armor, weapon, fake sin, lifestyle, cheap com link. That's cheap on the extra karma scale 4-6 I'd guess.  The extra 4 skill points on the other hand is like 8-20 karma depending on how you spend it.  The basic difference is while 44k more nuyen would be 22 karma if its in stuff you really don't need to complete your concept it is kind of a waste and I have a hard time fathoming a a concept without at least a 4th skill at 4 so the skills IMO hit the needed to complete your concept while the nuyen rarely does. Now if your concept necessitates having a qi focus or other money intensive idea I guess you might need D resources.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Ixal on <02-16-19/1540:51>
Also by now there are several ways to get both karma and money/gear with In Debt or Stolen Goods negative qualities. If they are worth it compared to spending karma for money depends on the GM though.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Ajax on <02-16-19/1603:01>
Iím just always at a loss for why anyone opts for a metatype other than E (or D if you want to be a muggle). I get that a lot of people enjoy playing orcs, trolls, dwarves, and elves... But, dagnabbit, I just like being human.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Beta on <02-16-19/1709:52>
From a karma effeciency POV:
-44k nY =22 karma
-from skills 2x(6+spec), 4 to 2x(6+spec), 6, 1+spec is 31 karma
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: DigitalZombie on <02-16-19/1714:48>
Some troll types could also survive on attributes E.
That would still net them 20 attribute points in total (12 from E and +4 strength, +4 body)
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-16-19/1734:10>
...for Sumo Jack, my Sumo Wrestler Giant (Troll variant) in NT, I took A for metatype (which gives him 5 special attribute points, 2 used to increase magic to 6 and the remaining 3 to Edge), B for Attributes, C for Magic, D for Skills and E for Resources. Dumped 7 Karma into resources so he could get a rating 3 ID and licences.  Didn't need any expensive weapons as Unarmed was his main attack and his secondary was Thrown Weapons with specialisation in Non Aerodynamic (basically other characters, furniture, appliances motorcycles etc). 

This was a tough build as for NT, a character also needs a bit of cultural/social grace (particularly if he/she is other than human) to get along in life so Charisma isn't necessarily a dump attribute (Jack has a 3).  He also has several cultural based knowledge skills like Shinto Philosophy, Tea Ceremony, Kabuki Theatre, Yakuza, and Baseball (the game is still quite popular there), as well as an active skill in Performance which actually have helped in certain situations.  His Armoured Jacket is styled as a baseball jacket with the Tokyo Yomiuri Giants Logo and name on it (got him some extra props with one of the NPC contacts). 

Though somewhat limited in what he can do, he is a fun character to play particularly as NT requires a bit more role play than Chicago.

Need to get him an Osmium Mace so he can really hit one out of the park.

Jack is only one of two  Meta adept characters I have.  The other one is Gracie, a Hawai'ian Dwarf Adept who is great with thrown weapons (precision throwing with a high Strength), Unarmed Combat (Penetrating Strike 4), and Weapon Focus Monowhip from a non-missions alternate campaign run by one of our Missions group GMs.

Usually I end up with human characters so as not to make something I consider more valuable (like skills or attributes) a "dump priority".
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Overbyte on <02-16-19/1803:14>
Resource E.
In Debt if you need a little more cash.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <02-16-19/1822:30>
My choice would be Resources as well. As a human you would be able to boost edge and it leaves other races to be an option.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Mirikon on <02-16-19/1837:18>
For a metahuman adept? Resources E. Sure, you're hurting at the start, but gear and nuyen are about ten thousand times easier to get than Karma, so what your skills are at the start are probably going to be what they are eight runs in, especially if you're going to try and initiate or get foci.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-16-19/1851:15>
...in NT it is admittedly a little easier for an adept to assign resources at a lower priority as all the big expensive weapons are forbidden and heavy armour attracts unwanted attention.  You also don't want a rating 4 ID as that will get you arrested.  For Snow Lily (Human Adept Metatype E) I assigned D to Resources and still managed to start with a bonded Force 3 Weapon Focus.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-16-19/1946:37>
Iím just always at a loss for why anyone opts for a metatype other than E (or D if you want to be a muggle). I get that a lot of people enjoy playing orcs, trolls, dwarves, and elves... But, dagnabbit, I just like being human.

When I get to play vs run I almost always play human, but I frequently am D human for the special attribute points edge or magic, I've done quite a few mage builds with magic C that gets its magic bumped to 6 through having human D. I've gone higher with C human as well if I want to be especially lucky.  Problem for a lot of builds I want A skills to flesh out my character, and yeah I know attributes do a better job at getting you a dice pool and more. But I like what skills represent to a character concept. Taking less than B attributes is rough, which leaves C magic, D human, e resources.  Sure you can play around with it a bit, if you can get by on 16 attributes or if a meta maybe even less attributes.  But Damn that's tight and you start looking weird. It doesn't help that every NPC in missions is physical and mental perfection, like almost straight 5s, so if you are running around with 2s and 1s so you can be good in your specialty you seem really off kilter.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: Hobbes on <02-16-19/2040:03>
Resources E and 10 Karma gets you 26K.

Fake SIN 4 10k
Armored Jacket 1k
1 Month Low Life 2k
Dodge Scoot 3k to Renault-Fiat Funone at 8500.
Between 4500 and 10k for Licenses, Swords, Guns, Gator Armor, Pre-paid Commlink and a few odds and ends.

Good 'nuff for most Adepts, Mages, and Technomancers.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <02-16-19/2150:11>
It's all in context. What kind of adept are you going to be?

If you are combat heavy, you may be able to get by with skills E just fine. Having Resources for good armor, foci, weapons, etc. can be really helpful upfront. 

If you are skills or gear heavy (decker/driver/drone operator), going attributes E can work fine, especially for dwarves. Some mixing adept powers and a little 'ware goes a long way to building your base and key attributes.

Resources E can be useful for folks who need a lot of skills and attributes, faces/infiltrartors come to mind.
Title: Re: Metahuman Adepts - Whats your E?
Post by: adzling on <02-17-19/1204:40>
Agreed, this only works when you know you're gonna be playing together for a handful of runs at least.

The benefit is it scales very quickly as you can devote your chargen skill points to maximizing your 2/3 main skills, use small bursts of run karma to round out the character and the nuyen you earn to pick up all the good gear.

Skills E with JoaT for quick expansion post chargen.

There's a lot riding on the expected nature of the campaign.  How often are you playing? Will the GM be more or less generous with Karma or Nuyen based on Core rulebook suggested rewards?

But without factoring any of that, I'd generally lean towards Resources even though JoaT does go a long way in lowering the curve to bringing deficient skillsets up to speed.  Still, it really only works if your attributes and adept powers already are carrying their loads towards getting your dice pools where you'll be wanting them to be (12+ for anything you want to be reasonably sure you'll overcome opposition or serious penalties).

Generally I'd prefer to go with Resources E.  Nuyen is usually easier to obtain than Karma, and if you're eschewing augmentations you really don't have any big expenses beyond Foci.  If your adept has Face-y skills/abilities, that'll work as an analogue to JoaT towards wringing extra • from looting/shaking Mr Johnson down for more payment.