Shadowrun

Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Jayde Moon on <01-28-19/1629:28>

Title: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <01-28-19/1629:28>
With a new FAQ comes a new FAQ discussion thread.

Put it all down, so we can get you guys the best possible product!
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-28-19/1633:07>
1.  *cackles maniacally now that blight is explicitly legal*

2. I see that the SRM doc didn't address spending karma/street cred on lowering lifestyle costs* when discussing the New Uses for Karma and Street Cred section.  Since the format is "everything's in except what we say isn't in", it sounds like it's legal to spend both karma and/or street cred to for example lower one's High lifestyle cost from 10,000/mo to 5,000/mo?

*Edit: I missed that the discussion on New Uses for Karma and Street Cred carries over to another page.  It mentions lowering lifestyle costs in a very awkwardly worded way:

Quote
óand the risk
associated with lowering a Lifestyle Cost relies too much on GM fiat to feel fair if ever applied, so that rule is used
as well.

So the rule IS used?  Or that's supposed to say the rule IS NOT used in SRM?  I'm not even sure where the GM fiat/table variation would even come in to play on that rule anyway... you pay the karma/street cred price, and so long as you maintain that lifestyle you get the benefit.  SRM already makes us track calendars, seems like fiat/variation is the opposite of what the rule is using?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <01-28-19/1649:02>
That should be

Quote
... so that rule isn't used as well.

Good catch.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-28-19/1822:58>
Hey Jayde Moon I don't know if you have read the thread on it, but I need to put in the follow power for SRM consideration.

Boosted Attribute (Strength)- I'm putting this in for consideration, this powers wording is problematic, as it specifies dice pools and not ratings. The Counter argument currently in vogue is it adds to "Feats of strength", sadly for the counter argument, in point of fact raw strength rolls don't occur, Lift/Carry the roll to picking up heavy object is derived stat from Body+Str, and therefore not enhanced by the wording of BAS.  Which means this power is useless and needs to be clarified. Other variant of the same power (see Boosted Attribute Agility), directly contributing to damage, so we know the author didn't care if this power did add to damage. So I'm making the argument it needs to be errata'ed for BAS to specifically call out that it affect the damage rating that calculate their damage rating from strength (Most melee weapons, bows, thrown, unarmed etc). The power doesn't say it won't enhance damage rating and does say adds to the attribute. In the same way the BAB adds to soak, and BAR adds dodge and piloting. It just happens that those are direct pools.


On a different note I'm concerned about the negative quality Stolen Gear (No Future page 177). While I suspect the easy response is just to ban it, but as it's a cool quality, perhaps reducing the ether per point amount or capping the possible amount spent might be doable? I can certainly understand if that's to much trouble, and it just needs to be banned but I think it's a cool quality.


PS I love Candle in the Darkness please, please, please let that in! Thanks!
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: fseperent on <01-28-19/2003:38>
If you tamper with Stolen Gear, you also have to tamper with In Debt.
Maybe 2 karma max on Stolen Gear and 4 karma for In Debt.
At those restrictions, it wouldn't do a lot of unbalancing, at least, I don't think it would.

For possible eratta: I would also suggest 1 Notoriety for every 1 karma for Stolen Gear, if it becomes known the gear in question is stolen.

Candle in the Darkness, I could maybe see it allowed if the bonus to Loyalty is reduced to +1 for SRM.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-28-19/2025:41>
I haz a sadz about Special Gear not being Char Gen legal.   :'(

Edit: Special Modifications.... derp....
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-28-19/2224:12>

Some thoughts about Better Than Bad...

Blight, by default, is an injection vector toxin.  If administered via injection, the target (unless it fully resists a Power 12 toxin) loses their connection to the manasphere.  When Blight is combined with DMSO, it gains a contact vector, and the target makes a Drain Resistance test (instead of Toxin Resistance) versus Power 12, and damage taken is treated as Stun Drain.


Is the contact vector effect instead of the injection vector effect, or in addition to it?  What happens if something that doesn't have powers or abilities that cause Drain (certain Awakened creatures) is hit?

----------


So, Dead SIN gives 20 Karma, and the only thing you have to do is not use the free Fake SIN and Licenses that it also gives?  Or is there some other way this negative quality comes into play?  I'm guessing it is supposed to be like having a real SIN, except you'll eventually get caught and have to pay back the 20 Karma loan you got at character creation.  A good deal for the person who needs the points now, and is willing to pay later.  Maybe Missions could have the character pay back 10 of the 20 points, and the other 10 get turned into a criminal SIN...
----------


A pre-Initiative Data Spike from Instinctive Hack, especially if the decker had marks on the target in advance of hostilities, could break combats initiated by boxed text.  "The assassin shoots at your Mr. Johnson...except he can't, because the decker just bricked his cybereyes."
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: fseperent on <01-28-19/2247:41>
@Fedifensor
Dead SIN, erg, you take that and you better pray that you don't get connected to your fake SIN.
Otherwise, being arrested for faking your death will be the least of your worries.
Imagine being mistaken for a Shedim.
People will want to make sure you're dead dead.

Have to say, at 2 karma, Instinctive Hack is overpowered.

As for Blight mixed with DMSO, it would be contact only.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-28-19/2252:50>
...
Is the contact vector effect instead of the injection vector effect, or in addition to it?  What happens if something that doesn't have powers or abilities that cause Drain (certain Awakened creatures) is hit?

It does call out the effect on dual natured beasties, which may partially answer your question.

As for "what dice pool do you use" when the target is not a spellcaster by nature... probably treat it like adepts treat drain (BOD + WIL irrespective of tradition).  But it'd be interesting to hear an official answer, for sure.


Quote
So, Dead SIN gives 20 Karma, and the only thing you have to do is not use the free Fake SIN and Licenses that it also gives?  Or is there some other way this negative quality comes into play?  I'm guessing it is supposed to be like having a real SIN, except you'll eventually get caught and have to pay back the 20 Karma loan you got at character creation.  A good deal for the person who needs the points now, and is willing to pay later.  Maybe Missions could have the character pay back 10 of the 20 points, and the other 10 get turned into a criminal SIN...
----------

Probably going to just be left to SRM Blanket Rule #4: In Gamemaster We Trust.  Sure there's the potential for table variation... but honestly if you take that quality you really shouldn't be surprised by whatever the negative impact is to your character when biometrics linked to a supposedly dead person turns up at a crime scene.


Quote
A pre-Initiative Data Spike from Instinctive Hack, especially if the decker had marks on the target in advance of hostilities, could break combats initiated by boxed text.  "The assassin shoots at your Mr. Johnson...except he can't, because the decker just bricked his cybereyes."

The only problem I have with this quality is you have to pay karma to get it; it should just be an ability every hacker can do for free.  (but let's be real.. it doesn't cost much and from now on every hacker WILL have it)

It's not likely to break a script; in order for the decker to brick the cybereyes or gun the hacker first had to spot the icon(s) in the first place. 9 times out of 10 the hacker only gets his matrix spotting test done before the first pass. The requirement to spot icons before you can target them is one of the single biggest things that keeps combat hacking from being viable- so this quality goes a long way towards making combat hacking viable.

Quote from: fseperent
As for Blight mixed with DMSO, it would be contact only.

The drain isn't the effect of the toxin when mixed with DMSO, it replaces the resistance test.  If you mix with DMSO yes it gains the contact vector.  Instead of a regular toxin resistance test you make a drain test.  And if you fail to resist the toxin, then you suffer the same effect as if it weren't mixed with DMSO (becoming a mundane).
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-28-19/2258:31>
I haz a sadz about Special Gear not being Char Gen legal.   :'(

There there. I feel your pain.
Maybe someday they will reconsider and let us have one of them. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-28-19/2302:26>
I haz a sadz about Special Gear not being Char Gen legal.   :'(

There there. I feel your pain.

I'm a sad panda about my materialistic snooty shadowrunner not being able to get away with high lifestyle for the price of medium.  Since she's a former aidoru, I'll cross my fingers that Jayde Moon loses his sanity and allows the Status mechanic from No Future.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-28-19/2312:23>
I don't know about you guys but I can tell you right now, my NT character is certainly gonna rock hard with an instrument of death lol. Or maybe flaming pitchfork. Who knew pitch forks were so burnie?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-28-19/2320:41>
I'm a sad panda about my materialistic snooty shadowrunner not being able to get away with high lifestyle for the price of medium.  Since she's a former aidoru, I'll cross my fingers that Jayde Moon loses his sanity and allows the Status mechanic from No Future.

If only this could happen...
We could start ever run, with a rocking concert!!!
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-28-19/2331:11>
The drain isn't the effect of the toxin when mixed with DMSO, it replaces the resistance test.  If you mix with DMSO yes it gains the contact vector.  Instead of a regular toxin resistance test you make a drain test.  And if you fail to resist the toxin, then you suffer the same effect as if it weren't mixed with DMSO (becoming a mundane).
That's one interpretation.  However, the injection effect is spelled out, then it talks about switching it to a contact effect with DMSO, then specific rules for hitting someone with that contact effect are given (Drain Resistance test, take damage as Stun Drain).  One can argue the contact effect replaces the injection effect, instead of applying both.  It would be beneficial for that to be clarified by the Missions FAQ and/or the Errata team to prevent table variation.


(The asterisk effect on the following page should also be addressed with errata, as there is no asterisk in the previous text.)
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-28-19/2341:37>
That's one interpretation.

I don't think there is any other valid interpretation.

The paragraph covering the special case of mixing with DMSO never says it changes the effect of the toxin.  It only says this mixture changes the toxin resistance test.  Per the toxin resistance rules (pg 409 SR5) you make the toxin resistance test.  That test is in this case replaced with a drain mechanic. But then after making that toxin resistance test (or its replacement test) THEN you apply the effect of the toxin if the toxin was not resisted.

Ergo, DMSO + blight doesn't mean you suffer only potential drain.  Any drain suffered is from the resistance test, not the effect. If you suffer drain from not resisting the toxin, you THEN suffer the effect of the toxin.  The only possible effect you could suffer for failing to resist the toxin is the stated effect of being cut off from the manasphere.

OTOH, there's certainly room for higher guidance on some other aspects of the effect. What, for example, happens to a materialized spirit that loses all magical abilities?  Does it poof? Is it *unable* to poof?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <01-29-19/0107:44>
I haz a sadz about Special Gear not being Char Gen legal.   :'(
..well after reading the FAQ, not totally out of the question.

As is stated on P. 75

["We are not ruling out offering these as special rewards at the end of particular missions, but they cannot be taken at character creation or through expenditure of Karma afterwards"]

There are several missions/CMPs that do involve special rewards so it could be possible to end up with a smartlinked, personlised grip Auto Assault 16 that has almost sniper rifle accuracy.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-29-19/0710:20>


Have to say, at 2 karma, Instinctive Hack is overpowered.



It would be if Hacking things in Combat was at all useful. 

In theory, a Decker or TM would have spotted most any silently running Icons long before (at least 6 seconds...) initiative is rolled and GIGO'd them.  But that would slow the game to a crawl.  Instinctive Hack is a Kludge to let a hacker character do something pre-combat without killing hours of table time on pointless Matrix rolls. 

Let the Decker brick a Mook's gun.  The big bads in Mission games typically don't have anything worth hacking.  There are a few, but not many. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-29-19/0727:57>


So, Dead SIN gives 20 Karma, and the only thing you have to do is not use the free Fake SIN and Licenses that it also gives?  Or is there some other way this negative quality comes into play?  I'm guessing it is supposed to be like having a real SIN, except you'll eventually get caught and have to pay back the 20 Karma loan you got at character creation.  A good deal for the person who needs the points now, and is willing to pay later.  Maybe Missions could have the character pay back 10 of the 20 points, and the other 10 get turned into a criminal SIN...


Negative Qualities rarely come up in Missions play in a significant way.  Phobias, Allergies, Addictions, Emotional Attachment, Weak Immune System, and on and on and on.  With a rotating cast of characters it's very difficult for a GM to keep track of what all is out there and work them into the story in a meaningful way. 

Dead SIN is actually one of the riskier ones because Missions occasionally takes you places where you get scanned 7 ways to Sunday and that would potentially trigger a 40 Karma pop in the nose. 

Its a cool story idea with less than ideal mechanics.  I don't like it personally, but if a player wants 25 Karma of Negative Qualities that will almost never trigger, they can easily find them. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-30-19/1037:59>
I don't think there is any other valid interpretation.
Which is how we get long-running and painful to read arguments like the Adept Powers (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28858.0) thread... 


The Blight rules can be interpreted as giving an alternate vector with alternate rules for that vector.  You may not agree with that interpretation, but that's different from saying there isn't one.  That is why FAQs and Errata exist - to clarify unclear rules.


I don't mind seeing specialty drugs that work better against a particular kind of target.  I do worry about Blight changing the game to the point where nearly every foe who doesn't care about the Forbidden availability starts packing a gun set up with capsule rounds.  Even with a good Body, any Awakened foe hit by Blight is effectively dead meat when contact-vector Blight neutralizes their magic and does Stun Drain.  It's just going to lead to an even greater push to min-max Defense pools, because that's a lot easier to do than get the 36 dice you'll need (on average) to fully negate the effect.  Or, I suppose mages can start wearing sealed suits whenever they can get away with it.  Regardless, Blight is now legal for SR games, and it's important to ensure there is a consistency across tables on how it is used.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-30-19/1106:15>
Very fair critique Fedifensor.

I'm well aware of the inherent toxicity in the "there's only one way to read this" argument.  And still, despite being aware of that toxicity, I still only see one valid way to look at the question. It's either the DMSO + blight toxin has a different resistance mechanic but the same effect as "straight" blight, or DMSO + blight has a different resistance mechanic and a different but unstated effect.  Sorry, but as much of a pompous ass it makes me sound like to say it, but there's no logical way the latter can be the truth.

As for worries about game changing nature of blight:

1) on one hand, I *welcome* that game changing paradigm.  Wow, you can't just mop up a whole patrol of guards by siccing a spirit on them? Call it an *improvement* to the game in my mind.

as for the threat to characters:

2) SRM already has the 1st and 4th blanket rules.

3) Blight may be a miracle of chemical engineering, sure.  But dovetailing with why I think there's only one way to read the rule... it still obeys the general toxins rules.  When mixed with DMSO it has a contact vector, which means your chemical protection rating will add bonus dice to the drain test.  Honestly, if I were to break blanket rules 1 and 4 and target a player's fun, I wouldn't add capsule rounds with DMSO+blight to an NPC I'd add a dart weapon w straight blight.  I've seen way too many cases of fully soaking 12 drain to trust it to take away your magic.

4) I played a Decker thru season 8 of Chicago.  Nothing to hack.  I still had fun because I built a character that wasn't one dimensional.  It's true you're encouraged to play what you want in organized play, but color me unsympathetic if you make a character that can't do anything if your primary schtick is denied.

5) An antidote patch costs 50•.  It's not like it's hard to remove a toxin that affects your character.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-30-19/1158:10>
I'm well aware of the inherent toxicity in the "there's only one way to read this" argument.  And still, despite being aware of that toxicity, I still only see one valid way to look at the question. It's either the DMSO + blight toxin has a different resistance mechanic but the same effect as "straight" blight, or DMSO + blight has a different resistance mechanic and a different but unstated effect.  Sorry, but as much of a pompous ass it makes me sound like to say it, but there's no logical way the latter can be the truth.
Er, the stated effect is Stun Drain...which, since it can't be bypassed (for a time) by a patch, is significantly more powerful than Stun damage.  Narcoject, by comparison, ONLY does Stun damage...and it's one of the most powerful injection toxins in the game.

Quote
As for worries about game changing nature of blight:

1) on one hand, I *welcome* that game changing paradigm.  Wow, you can't just mop up a whole patrol of guards by siccing a spirit on them? Call it an *improvement* to the game in my mind.
I'm not a big fan of countering a known problem by introducing a new problem.  High Force spirits are a problem, and I feel Neo-Tokyo at least tries to counter this with the Magic Surveillance section of the FAQ.  A caster that drops a Force 9 spirit on a group of guards is like a Street Samurai using a grenade launcher to take out the same guards - not subtle at all, and inviting a huge response from the NTMP.

Quote
as for the threat to characters:

2) SRM already has the 1st and 4th blanket rules.
And yet, we still need a 90+ page FAQ.  I've seen enough SRM GMs (and module authors) break Rule 1 to know why.

Quote
3) Blight may be a miracle of chemical engineering, sure.  But dovetailing with why I think there's only one way to read the rule... it still obeys the general toxins rules.  When mixed with DMSO it has a contact vector, which means your chemical protection rating will add bonus dice to the drain test.  Honestly, if I were to break blanket rules 1 and 4 and target a player's fun, I wouldn't add capsule rounds with DMSO+blight to an NPC I'd add a dart weapon w straight blight.  I've seen way too many cases of fully soaking 12 drain to trust it to take away your magic.
Nothing in certain with dice, but on average you'll need 36 dice to soak 12 drain.  Even rolling well (1 hit per 2 dice), you're going to need 24 dice...which is doable with experienced mages if you build for it, but not trivial.

Quote
4) I played a Decker thru season 8 of Chicago.  Nothing to hack.  I still had fun because I built a character that wasn't one dimensional.  It's true you're encouraged to play what you want in organized play, but color me unsympathetic if you make a character that can't do anything if your primary schtick is denied.
I played a combo decker/face for Chicago, who only drew his Colt Agent Special (9 dice, including smartlink) if there was absolutely no other option.  Some of those modules for Chicago should have (at a minimum) had some OOC warning telling people that if they're playing a dedicated decker, they're not going to have much to do.  I have to roll my eyes on the rare occasions we finish a module without a combat, and someone complains they didn't get to fight...


Regardless, I'm not a big fan of countering a known problem by introducing a new one.


Quote
5) An antidote patch costs 50•.  It's not like it's hard to remove a toxin that affects your character.
Does an antidote patch restore your connection to the manasphere, or remove Stun Drain (which, to my knowledge, only recovers with natural healing)?  It's at best +6 dice to the roll, and can't counter an immediate effect toxin unless it was used in the 20 minutes before the attack.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-30-19/1212:37>
Er, the stated effect is Stun Drain...

No, see that's demonstrably incorrect.

The Stun Resistance test is in place of the Toxin Resistance test.

That is NOT the same thing as the effect.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-30-19/1221:40>
Er, the stated effect is Stun Drain...

No, see that's demonstrably incorrect.

The Stun Resistance test is in place of the Toxin Resistance test.

That is NOT the same thing as the effect.
If the Drain Resistance test was solely to determine whether the person loses access to the manasphere, I would agree.  However, it does Stun Drain, which is just as much of an effect as Narcoject's Stun damage.  In fact, any toxin that does damage (Physical or Stun) has it under the Effect line.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-30-19/1228:06>
So if the drain is the effect, for argument's sake what is the test for the toxin resistance test?

I ask because you're arguing one of two things: there's the effect of drain and there's no resistance test to prevent having to resist drain, or you're arguing that there's a resistance test in the form of testing against drain for no toxin effect.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <01-30-19/1235:24>
So if the drain is the effect, for argument's sake what is the test for the toxin resistance test?
The exact text is "they must make a Drain Resistance test in place of a Toxin Resistance test vs. the power of the toxin" (emphasis mine).  There is no Toxin Resistance test.  It does not say "in addition to", or otherwise mention a separate effect besides saying "Damage taken is treated as Stun Drain."


Now, maybe we can agree to disagree, and let a few other people get a word in edgewise about the overall content of the FAQ...
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-30-19/1240:44>
One of the things about the setting is that itself regulates. Sure blight is gonna win ya a couple fights with magic users, but after that magic users will adjust. DMSO blight is totally legit. But so is packing around a remove toxin preparation. Or going to chem seal or some other proflactic method will be developed. A spell that prevent poisons effect, a slap patch antidote. Back in 4th we all switched to sticknshock. By the time anniversy edition was released every npc Under the sun had insulated armor. Yes tech got stronger but magic gas had 3 really strong books, so it all works out.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-30-19/1245:15>
Using toxins, SR5 pg 409:
Quote
When a toxin comes into play, note its Speed to determine
when it takes effect. At the end of the appropriate
Combat Turn, the victim makes a Toxin Resistance Test
to see if the toxin takes effect. This test uses Body +
Willpower + the rating of any protective gear/systems;
each hit reduces the toxinís Power by 1 point. If the
Power is reduced to zero, the toxic substance takes no
effect; otherwise, apply the effect depending on the
remaining Power level.

So game mechanics-wise, the process works thusly:

1) character is hit with a DMSO+blight capsule round. we check the speed: immediate.  It takes effect at the end of the same combat turn.
2) at the end of that same combat turn, we make the toxin resistance test.  Only we don't use the cited dice pools, because blight toxin specifically calls out a drain test in place of the standard toxin resistance test.  Specific > General.  In this specific case, each hit on the drain resistance test is simultaneously averting 1 point of drain damage (because it's a drain test) and lowering the power of the toxin by 1 (because the drain test is in place of the toxin resistance test).
3) If we did not reduce the power to 0 (i.e. you suffered any drain) we go on to apply the effect based on the remaining power of the toxin.  The passage discussing mixing DMSO with Blight never says the effect is changed/removed, only that the toxin resistance test is replaced.  Ergo, the effect is still there and we apply the formula to see how long the victim is a mundane now.

Now there IS certainly room to argue or ask for clarification about certain aspects, like what happens if you resist 11 of the 12 drain... since I reduced the power to 1 will I correspondingly only suffer the minimum result of 1 hour of being a mundane?  I'd argue no.. the effect lists a foruma of 12-body or magic, not Power-Body or Magic... so technically even if you resist 11 of the 12 drain you still suffer full effect as if you didn't reduce the power at all.  THAT is something that may not be intended, and certainly could be clarified if they choose to see it as necessary.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-30-19/1927:19>
Now there IS certainly room to argue or ask for clarification about certain aspects, like what happens if you resist 11 of the 12 drain... since I reduced the power to 1 will I correspondingly only suffer the minimum result of 1 hour of being a mundane?  I'd argue no.. the effect lists a foruma of 12-body or magic, not Power-Body or Magic... so technically even if you resist 11 of the 12 drain you still suffer full effect as if you didn't reduce the power at all.  THAT is something that may not be intended, and certainly could be clarified if they choose to see it as necessary.

That is a very god and interesting question SSRD, cause that's pretty crazy. We should certainly get an answer to that.
 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-30-19/2010:31>
One of the things about the setting is that itself regulates. Sure blight is gonna win ya a couple fights with magic users, but after that magic users will adjust. DMSO blight is totally legit. But so is packing around a remove toxin preparation. Or going to chem seal or some other proflactic method will be developed. A spell that prevent poisons effect, a slap patch antidote. Back in 4th we all switched to sticknshock. By the time anniversy edition was released every npc Under the sun had insulated armor. Yes tech got stronger but magic gas had 3 really strong books, so it all works out.

If any of the Magical Boss fights in Missions make it to a 2nd turn you're probably looking at a TPK.  3 Spells from a high threat mage is going to wreck most teams, 2nd turn is just going to be mop up.  Geek the mage or die trying. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <01-31-19/1226:19>
Im not sure i get your point Hobbes? The same can be said for most every fight SR. Magic or not. It's just more true with magic.

Blight is just gonna end them even faster, and make having a mage less critical.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-31-19/1233:45>
...
Blight is just gonna end them even faster, and make having a mage less critical.

I agree with Marcus.

It's not mage-hate when I say that not having to rely on having a magician in the team is a good thing for game balance.  Not only do spirits no longer take out NPCs all by themselves, neither do players need a mage to answer a hostile spirit. Those are BOTH good things for game balance.

It's like Kill Code giving us Looper Bullets.  Yeah a decker may resent not being necessary for hacking cameras, but it's good for the overall game that you're not dependent on having a decker around.  And blight now removes the requirement that someone play a magician!
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-31-19/2145:08>
Im not sure i get your point Hobbes? The same can be said for most every fight SR. Magic or not. It's just more true with magic.

Blight is just gonna end them even faster, and make having a mage less critical.

Blight does nothing until the second turn.  A boss mage like The Founder from Gone Long Gone (just to pick one) is going to blast out 3 Edge fueled Spells by then.  There are very few characters that will be around after that.  IME, Mages with a high edge with lots of Spirits around sometimes get a second spell off.  It's usually, Mage tries to seize initiative, PCs with Edge left try to seize initiative, anyone who can takes a shot at the mage, mage throws a big spell, entire team takes a shot at the mage.  Sometimes a second spell gets cast, mage goes down. 

I don't see Blight changing that  : )

I can only think of a handful of times there was a meaningful second turn of Combat in a Missions game I ran or played.  You're better off doing damage RIGHT NOW to drop the mage (or force Edge to be spent) than in some theoretical second turn. 

Just my experience.  Clearly YMMV.   :P
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-01-19/0727:53>
@Blight

I think Blight is pretty silly in terms of game mechanics (but not concept), but that said, it is also fairly easily mitigated by characters with a bit of karma. Chemical seal negates the DMSO delivery, and quickened combat sense + deflection means most attack rolls with an injection device will be avoided. Even if struck, body + willpower + quickened prophylaxis + antidote spell + antidote patch + natural immunity (if a mystic adept) + ect. makes fully soaking the power 12 quite feasible after 60 karma or so, and a near certainty at mid to late career.

I understand that not all players build their characters that way, but just my personal observations.

@Hobbes

The Founder did have his Magic and Edge (appropriately!) adjusted in the FAQ, but he still packs one of the highest dice pools I've seen on a Missions NPC. That said, while I agree with your general sentiment, I have found that it rarely actually works out that way except with inexperienced players and/or low karma PCs. Run for your life has really taken the bite out of aoe effects. Factor in one of those negates a spell, counterspelling makes resisting the second spell feasible, and then you really only have to deal with one.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <02-01-19/0938:50>
I think Blight is pretty silly in terms of game mechanics (but not concept), but that said, it is also fairly easily mitigated by characters with a bit of karma. Chemical seal negates the DMSO delivery,
How many characters can walk down the street in armor that is eligible for a chemical seal without drawing attention from law enforcement?  Can you con your way past guards in a facility while wearing that armor?  Not every op allows you to put on full body armor or another type of sealed suit.


Quote
and quickened combat sense + deflection means most attack rolls with an injection device will be avoided. Even if struck, body + willpower + quickened prophylaxis + antidote spell + antidote patch + natural immunity (if a mystic adept) + ect. makes fully soaking the power 12 quite feasible after 60 karma or so, and a near certainty at mid to late career.

I understand that not all players build their characters that way, but just my personal observations.
I would wager that the majority of characters aren't built that way, and several of the ones that are either have an immense amount of Karma, or haven't faced the natural consequences of walking around with multiple quickened spells.  Unless you're using Enhanced Masking, those quickened spells are going to be obvious, which makes covert missions significantly harder.  You're also going to have to get through magical barriers at some point in your career.  Not to mention, there are other types of magical characters besides mystic adepts.  Physical adepts, technomancers, specialist mages...there are a lot of people that can't build to defend against Blight in the way you describe. 


Regardless, characters shouldn't have to be built in one specific way because a single item was added to the game. There are mages and mystic adepts that build to a theme instead of min-maxing...and it would be a shame to drive them away from the campaign.


Quote
The Founder did have his Magic and Edge (appropriately!) adjusted in the FAQ, but he still packs one of the highest dice pools I've seen on a Missions NPC. That said, while I agree with your general sentiment, I have found that it rarely actually works out that way except with inexperienced players and/or low karma PCs. Run for your life has really taken the bite out of aoe effects. Factor in one of those negates a spell, counterspelling makes resisting the second spell feasible, and then you really only have to deal with one.
Nearly every convention I've played at has at least one, if not multiple inexperienced players and/or low Karma PCs.  They're the ones most likely to stop playing if they get hit with a squirt gun and told "sorry, all of your magic is gone".


Regarding Run For Your Life...having an entire group burn an action at the cost of one mage's action is a good investment.  One character shouldn't be able to solo an entire encounter simply because he can get his AoE big enough to hit every opponent.  When people burn actions to jump out of the way, it allows the other characters a chance to act.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-01-19/1055:32>
Your point is a good one Hobbes. But it's also something that can be planned around.  Get'em from large range and force a movement turn. I think Lormyr is also  good one, as SSRD says we need clarification. On how it takes eff3ct. Further the binary magic on or off is kinda lacking drama perhaps massive internal penalty to casting might be a better solution?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-01-19/1059:12>
One thing to remember is that this conversation is specifically in the context of Missions play, or at least my portion was. In a home setting, things have a lot more room to be custom tailored. In Missions, characters making foolish choices and/or not having appropriate licenses is (and should be) the primary barrier to being allowed to stroll around with the (insert thing here). Rolling down the street in a diving suit would definitely be odd, but it is not illegal at all. The same is true of quickened spells if you have your licenses. But sure, I agree, a chem seal article will not always be available or the best idea.

Unless you were referring to assensing, very few buff-related spells have an obvious effect. Prophylaxis is certainly not one of them. Element aura, armor, ect. are the primary culprits with a visible effect.

Mana barriers are problematic when subtlety is preferred. I also think that is perfectly acceptable. My Chicago mystic adept had a lot of stuff quickened on himself, and sometimes that meant I would sit out a portion of a Mission to not cause alarm, but this honestly didn't happen often. Many of the times we dealt with mana barriers it was boiling down to a fight anyhow. Rating 6 SIN and appropriate magic licenses got me through most of the "why the hell do you have so much magic on yourself walking down the street?" situations, but then again that character also ended with a 9 public awareness.

Personally, I had prophylaxis and natural immunity long before blight was a thing anyhow, because toxins in general are awful to resist. That's just my personal play style though, and there is nothing wrong with not taking that approach.

I don't disagree about run for your life. I just think the better game mechanic would have been to allow defense rolls vs. aoe instead of the convoluted work around. Then it wouldn't be necessary.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <02-01-19/1127:52>
One thing to remember is that this conversation is specifically in the context of Missions play, or at least my portion was. In a home setting, things have a lot more room to be custom tailored. In Missions, characters making foolish choices and/or not having appropriate licenses is (and should be) the primary barrier to being allowed to stroll around with the (insert thing here). Rolling down the street in a diving suit would definitely be odd, but it is not illegal at all. The same is true of quickened spells if you have your licenses. But sure, I agree, a chem seal article will not always be available or the best idea.

Unless you were referring to assensing, very few buff-related spells have an obvious effect. Prophylaxis is certainly not one of them. Element aura, armor, ect. are the primary culprits with a visible effect.
One thing to keep in mind is that while there are still many Missions players in Chicago games, the new campaign is in Neo-Tokyo.  The NTMP has nearly omnipresent surveillance, both mundane and magical.  Awakened people are a small subset of the population, and those who can cast quickened spells (which means they have initiated for that specific purpose) are a small subset of that subset.  The FAQ states that "other uses of magic at the discretion of the GM" may garner attention from astral surveillance, and I consider quickened spells to fall in that category. 


Any competent security force who has astral surveillance should flag those with quickened spells, and it should be in the instructions given to watcher spirits.  Having the player make an Edge check (as stated in the FAQ) seems a reasonable response, which means eventually an astrally-projecting mage will come and investigate.  Where that goes depends on what the mage uncovers with assensing.  This means Enhanced Masking is a pretty valuable metamagic in Neo-Tokyo.

A failed Edge check and successful assessing doesn't mean the NTMP will arrest those individuals...they may not even confront them.  But they will keep tabs on where those individuals are, just as they would keep tabs on someone with 'legal' full body armor or a nodachi. 

Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-01-19/2042:47>
The strong surveillance of Neo-Tokyo is known. The same section you are quoting also explicitly spells out what officers do in response to suspicious activity (which I also agree wearing a chem seal in public or having more than a few quickened spells could easily fall under) - they do a SIN check, check licenses for restricted gear, confiscate forbidden items, and can potentially be smoothed over with an Etiquette roll and/or bribe from a police contact.

If the character has drawn attention but has no illegal items, passes their SIN check, has licenses for their quickened magic, and doesn't otherwise do anything foolish during a police check, I personally see no reason to penalize the player or character further. Drawing attention does not and should not equate to being constantly monitored afterward, especially if you have done nothing illegal. Specifically, as per the FAQ, magic is common in Neo-Tokyo, and simply using it may not be enough to garner attention.

YMMV.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <02-01-19/2051:40>

One thing to keep in mind is that while there are still many Missions players in Chicago games, the new campaign is in Neo-Tokyo. 

And all the CMPs...

And yeah, full suite of sustains is going to be an issue walking around in Neo-Tokyo.  As will large Spirits.  Not as in a "You're under Arrest" but you'll have a tough time pulling off anything sneaky with a NTMP watcher tagging along every time you leave the house. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-03-19/1910:04>
...so reading through the discussion on Blight, I wonder what effect it has on adepts, who usually have a much smaller drain pool (Body  + Willpower) as some adept powers involve resisting drain (like Adrenaline Surge and Attribute Boost). 

Don't have BTB yet.

As to Zapper rounds, my Decker Violet carries a couple clops for her Guardian.  Beat's having to shimmy up or be boosted up to an external camera to jack into it (or trying to beat a host + firewall pool) just to get into a facility.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-03-19/2001:51>
...so reading through the discussion on Blight, I wonder what effect it has on adepts, who usually have a much smaller drain pool (Body  + Willpower) as some adept powers involve resisting drain (like Adrenaline Surge and Attribute Boost). 

Don't have BTB yet.

Adept drain is always BOD + WIL.  The standard toxin resistance test is the same dice pool so whichever vector they need 12 hits or they temporarily become a mundane.

OTOH adepts can buy immunity to specific toxins, so blight's not a bad choice at all.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-04-19/1033:38>
Yeah it's fairly safe bet toxin immunity blight just made a huge jump up every adapts list.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-04-19/1148:38>
Yeah it's fairly safe bet toxin immunity blight just made a huge jump up every adapts list.

I just was struck with a realization.... since blight is treated mechanically different when straight and mixed with DMSO, immunity to one may not carry offer to the other.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-04-19/1834:14>
...so human adepts would the most vulnerable as the average drain pool is usually 8 - 9.  BGC (particularly in Chicago) is harsh enough on adepts who have much fewer options than a spellslinger to counter it, why did they have to introduce something like this that totally crocks them?

As to "carry over", I would think if the adept had the immunity to Blight it would still apply as that is the actual toxin  DMSO is only the vehicle for delivery and by itself not a true toxin.

@ Marcus  Indeed, the Kid will be getting it when she initiates again, as will my Mystic Adept, Wednesday.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <02-04-19/1943:53>
Again, worth saying.  Consider the number of times a meaningful second round of combat has ever occurred.  It's likely a really small number.  And then figure the number of times a Mission writer will actually add an NPC with Blight.  It'll be some CMP along the lines of the Tennessee suites.

Just sayin. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-04-19/1946:40>
Well, even if blight's not explicitly listed, it's still within the GM's purview to add a clip of capsule rounds loaded with DMSO & blight to some NPC's gear.  So long as the GM isn't violating Wheaton's Law, at least.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-05-19/0059:56>
Also, sure you might not suffer from it in that fight, but it does mean the character is far less useful in the remainder of the run, unless it spans multiple days and the team gets hit early so they know what to prepare for later on... So it's something that risks being a game-breaker.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-05-19/0121:32>
Well, even if blight's not explicitly listed, it's still within the GM's purview to add a clip of capsule rounds loaded with DMSO & blight to some NPC's gear.  So long as the GM isn't violating Wheaton's Law, at least.
...don't know, doing so could be "borderline".
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-05-19/0726:48>
I think it's reasonable. I wouldn't hesitate to do it to help make fights interesting at my table.
 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-05-19/1711:26>
...would likely make some groups abort the mission once their spell/adept support is down, particularly when facing opposing NPC mages/spirits.  Unless you are toting around a Semi Auto Sniper rifle and have a good pool to do a bullseye double tap against a spirit there isn't much mundanes can do to it because of the normal weapons immunity (short of geeking the summoner who now also has a bigger advantage).
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-05-19/1912:49>
...would likely make some groups abort the mission once their spell/adept support is down, particularly when facing opposing NPC mages/spirits.  Unless you are toting around a Semi Auto Sniper rifle and have a good pool to do a bullseye double tap against a spirit there isn't much mundanes can do to it because of the normal weapons immunity (short of geeking the summoner who now also has a bigger advantage).

Not only can NPCs use blight.. but so can PCs.  Spirits are no longer boogeymen to mundanes.  Drench it in DMSO+Blight, and it's now nothing but a big ridiculous critter with no magical abilities. Presumably, that means it's no more immune to bullets than Unicorns and Sasquatches are.  Assuming of course, being "cut off from the manasphere" doesn't mean it winks out of existence entirely.

We're now in a game where you don't need a magician or a combat adept around to deal with spirits. Yeah that has implications for NPC guards, but it has even more implications for mundane PCs. When I cackled with glee upthread about blight being legal it wasn't an expression while wearing my GM hat.. it was coming from being on the other side of the GM screen where I play a dart pistol covert ops runner!

To add to the chorus of calls for blight questions: It'll probably be wise to codify what blight does and doesn't do to bug spirits.  People are still playing Chicago campaign afterall and standardization is the goal in SRM.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <02-05-19/2153:03>
I honestly have no idea how Blight works on Spirits or the like:

"Any spirits exposed to this combination cannot apply immunity to normal weapons to the damage dealt by these weapons."

Personally I would have gone with "Blight bypasses a Spirits Immunity to Normal Weapons Power."  Unless the intent was to let capsule rounds be fired at Spirits for damage?

Separation from the Manasphere should be *pop* for a Spirit.  If they can't use powers, they can't use Manifestation, so they're kicked off the physical plane at least.  I struggle with the idea that hanging out on the Astral plane is an option for "Separated from the Manasphere..."  YMMV.

I'd hate to have to adjudicate what the hell this does for Shedim or other possession spirits...

Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-05-19/2302:36>
...would likely make some groups abort the mission once their spell/adept support is down, particularly when facing opposing NPC mages/spirits.  Unless you are toting around a Semi Auto Sniper rifle and have a good pool to do a bullseye double tap against a spirit there isn't much mundanes can do to it because of the normal weapons immunity (short of geeking the summoner who now also has a bigger advantage).

That may be possible but they would be some pretty light weight runners and deserve all the negative that would have coming for doing so.. A quick stop at your local shaman or alchemist and the effect character could back in action in fairly short order. Blight is a threat in combat, and logistic challenge to over come. But's no reason to back out of run.

Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-06-19/0947:46>
It might just be our local Columbus players (mostly SR vets), or perhaps my primary group's tendency to min-max, but our mundanes have never had anything close to a problem taking out spirits. The hardened armor vs. their attacks typically just affords them a little time to potentially pose a threat. Even the grand finale big bad of Chicago went down before before a second initiative pass, and that was without use of the "extras" present.

I've said something along the following lines before, but I believe most of us can agree that magic is somewhat overwhelmingly good compared to other options. I believe introducing grey mana options was an excellent idea. Blight, not so much. Some protection vs. a strong effect is a good game mechanics choice. Neutralizing archetypes, not so much.

A simple handful of following changes in future editions would go a long ways to making things more balanced, without neutering any archetypes:

1). Foci should not be able to go beyond rating 6, and should be much more expensive in terms of nuyen than they currently are. The primary culprits are centering foci and power foci. Large casting dice pools and large drain dice pools for higher force are the primary reasons magic is devastating in combat.

2). Some sort of maximum number of spells known. Possibly magic attribute x2? Outside of combat, sheer versatility magic affords is incredible, and can neutralize the need for many other archetypes.

3). Mortals should not be able to summon divine beings. Limiting the rating of spirits one can summon to magic attribute -2, with a maximum of force 9 or so, leaves summoning quite useful but cuts away it's overwhelming bite. Our Chicago characters towards the end ran around with force 15+ spirits, and while it was amusing, it was also ludicrous.

4). Magic attribute should have a maximum for mortal magicians, like all other attributes.

Those changes alone would mitigate the need for things like blight, which really won't even stop a player determined to build against it, just prioritize some of their spending.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-06-19/2004:42>
...would likely make some groups abort the mission once their spell/adept support is down, particularly when facing opposing NPC mages/spirits.  Unless you are toting around a Semi Auto Sniper rifle and have a good pool to do a bullseye double tap against a spirit there isn't much mundanes can do to it because of the normal weapons immunity (short of geeking the summoner who now also has a bigger advantage).

That may be possible but they would be some pretty light weight runners and deserve all the negative that would have coming for doing so.. A quick stop at your local shaman or alchemist and the effect character could back in action in fairly short order. Blight is a threat in combat, and logistic challenge to over come. But's no reason to back out of run.

...there are a several Chicago missions where if the team doesn't have magical backup they are pretty much hosed. Again, unless as a mundane, you have overwhelming firepower that can overcome a spirit's immunity (and there are some places you won't be toting around a Barrett) runners will go down.

I guess one of my major dislikes is the availability of 8F (meanwhile Gamma-S  is 14F and  Neurostun-X is 14R), crikey a ganger could get his/her hands on the stuff. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-06-19/2051:31>
It might just be our local Columbus players (mostly SR vets), or perhaps my primary group's tendency to min-max, but our mundanes have never had anything close to a problem taking out spirits. The hardened armor vs. their attacks typically just affords them a little time to potentially pose a threat. Even the grand finale big bad of Chicago went down before before a second initiative pass, and that was without use of the "extras" present.

I've said something along the following lines before, but I believe most of us can agree that magic is somewhat overwhelmingly good compared to other options. I believe introducing grey mana options was an excellent idea. Blight, not so much. Some protection vs. a strong effect is a good game mechanics choice. Neutralizing archetypes, not so much.

A simple handful of following changes in future editions would go a long ways to making things more balanced, without neutering any archetypes:

1). Foci should not be able to go beyond rating 6, and should be much more expensive in terms of nuyen than they currently are. The primary culprits are centering foci and power foci. Large casting dice pools and large drain dice pools for higher force are the primary reasons magic is devastating in combat.

2). Some sort of maximum number of spells known. Possibly magic attribute x2? Outside of combat, sheer versatility magic affords is incredible, and can neutralize the need for many other archetypes.

3). Mortals should not be able to summon divine beings. Limiting the rating of spirits one can summon to magic attribute -2, with a maximum of force 9 or so, leaves summoning quite useful but cuts away it's overwhelming bite. Our Chicago characters towards the end ran around with force 15+ spirits, and while it was amusing, it was also ludicrous.

4). Magic attribute should have a maximum for mortal magicians, like all other attributes.

Those changes alone would mitigate the need for things like blight, which really won't even stop a player determined to build against it, just prioritize some of their spending.
..like to know how that last combat in Season 8 was accomplished without most of the team being decimated, as in the previous mission where we first came in contact with the abomination, a pre edged  Bullseye double tap with a Teracotta Arms sniper rifle (and a great roll at that) was little more than a mosquito bite to it. That's about as powerful a weapon a mundane can employ next to a Barrett as you need to overcome all that hardened armour to even hope to hurt it (Leela had an Ontari Arms launcher loaded with AV rockets and about all that would have done was piss it off more).  Even high force Bug Zapper spells only slowed but didn't stop it.  Our group eventually did find the the "tools" needed and even then it still required burning Edge to get those 4 auto successes to tag it (fortunately we did get it to use up all its edge beforehand).

I do agree that magic is still overpowered (and in some cases broken), though not as bad as 4e or even 3e (however in 3e there was the"control" of magic loss for deadly wounds, or getting hit with any kind of stimulant like a Stim Patch or shot of Jazz from a Super squirt, so the higher your Magic Attribute was [you had to roll above it's value on 2 six sided dice], the easier it was to lose a point).

Spell slingers already have that big target on their backs of "geek the mage first" and often can be (and are) taken down by "conventional" means as they don't usually have high physical attributes. Spirits on the other hand are trouble unless like I mentioned you have a sniper with a good rifle and pool who can do a double tap to exceed the immunity, or an adept with killing hands the Spirit Ram power, or a weapon focus which completely negates spirit armour. 

Blight seems a little like overkill, not as toxic (or illegal) as Fab III but still pretty powerful given the cost and availability.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-07-19/0232:11>
..like to know how that last combat in Season 8 was accomplished without most of the team being decimated, as in the previous mission where we first came in contact with the abomination, a pre edged  Bullseye double tap with a Teracotta Arms sniper rifle (and a great roll at that) was little more than a mosquito bite to it. That's about as powerful a weapon a mundane can employ next to a Barrett as you need to overcome all that hardened armour to even hope to hurt it (Leela had an Ontari Arms launcher loaded with AV rockets and about all that would have done was piss it off more).  Even high force Bug Zapper spells only slowed but didn't stop it.  Our group eventually did find the the "tools" needed and even then it still required burning Edge to get those 4 auto successes to tag it (fortunately we did get it to use up all its edge beforehand).
To be fair, that's negating 'only' 16 Immunity of its 20, leaving it 40 dice + 1 autohit to soak 16+ damage, so on average near-15 damage is lost, meaning on average roughly only your net hits are damage. A Barrett would be 34 left for average near-12, so would do 2 damage more. But yeah, holy carp.

Edit: Speaking of, what is the current tally on Chicago's fate? Judging from BTB p24, it lived? Ah, p34 confirms.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-07-19/0424:25>
...well it did where I play as our first team and two others managed to do the beastie in one group doing so in a totally in Pink Mohawk style (also burning Edge for the auto hits).  No spoilers for how that transpired but it was a very "colourful" solution. 

If you were on a team that succeeded that character is still active and can run in any remaining CMPs or core missions that they haven't been on  If the city got nuked that character either died (or if they made a certain  "deal" and "got out of Dodge" in time, were automatically retired).

Leela's been pretty much through the entire Chicago core so I moved her to Seattle and just run her in CMPs she hasn't been on as well as special missions (like the April Fools and Prime Runner ones). KK (now called "Chicago Kid") retired to become Becky 99's "right hand" (she had done so much for Becky 99 our group's core GMs allowed her to actually become a member of the Desolation Angels) she also never completed the final arc.  Milicent who ran though all of season 8 which also succeeded (suicidal character considering she is barely over 100 karma)  is still running in the remainder of the Core missions and CMPs she hasn't been on  She just cannot take any contacts that were lost.

We are also rebooting Chicago with new characters (that's where my new Decker Violet is and I still play Wednesday who is also fairly "new").

__________

I played the first season of NT but it really didn't seem to hit it off with me as well as a number of the others of our group.  I have two characters, my Physad (based on the original Kyoto Kid concept from the 1e days who was primarily a blade and athletic adept), and an elf Face with metatype alteration biosculpting.  The downside of season 9 are the heavier restrictions (and the fact every character needs a certain level social graces to get around and sometimes even even get hired), which can really hamstring characters on the CMPs as those take place outside Japan and the oppos are not subject to the same laws/restrictions.  Though not a war zone like the CZ, the threat rating can be a lot tougher as the basic social mores of Japan like "saving face" and Nemawashi mean nothing and characters are not walking tanks, bristling with automatic weapons, or casting boffo combat/mental manipulation spells.   In the CMPs, My adept Snow Lily, comes out more like a ganger than a runner even though she is quite capable in NT. By Face Betsy can fare a little better due to her social skills and she can use pistols (in NT a Narcojet One which is just R legality and she has a decent palming skill) which of course would allow her to pick up a Savalette Guardian or Ares Predator V outside of the country.

This is part of why I went to playing new characters in the Chicago reboot as it feels more "SR" than "1984".
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-07-19/0820:18>
...would likely make some groups abort the mission once their spell/adept support is down, particularly when facing opposing NPC mages/spirits.  Unless you are toting around a Semi Auto Sniper rifle and have a good pool to do a bullseye double tap against a spirit there isn't much mundanes can do to it because of the normal weapons immunity (short of geeking the summoner who now also has a bigger advantage).

That may be possible but they would be some pretty light weight runners and deserve all the negative that would have coming for doing so.. A quick stop at your local shaman or alchemist and the effect character could back in action in fairly short order. Blight is a threat in combat, and logistic challenge to over come. But's no reason to back out of run.

...there are a several Chicago missions where if the team doesn't have magical backup they are pretty much hosed. Again, unless as a mundane, you have overwhelming firepower that can overcome a spirit's immunity (and there are some places you won't be toting around a Barrett) runners will go down.

I guess one of my major dislikes is the availability of 8F (meanwhile Gamma-S  is 14F and  Neurostun-X is 14R), crikey a ganger could get his/her hands on the stuff.

My Chicago character faced the spirit swarm and final hive rescue, no magic support. Running a cyberleg kicking build and just stomped those bugs. Immunity is tough but a good tech build should be able over come it. As Lore pointed out.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-07-19/0854:42>
..like to know how that last combat in Season 8 was accomplished without most of the team being decimated

At that time our team consisted of the following:

Giant Street Samurai (cyberware), just under 500 karma
Minotaur Street Samurai (bioware), just under 600 karma
Elf Adapt (sniper), just under 500 karma
Gnome Technomancer, just under 500 karma
Human Aspected Mage/Face (summoner, with a force 12 spirit ally), just under 500 karma
Human Mystic Adapt, just over 800 karma
Human Mystic Adapt, 1,033 karma (this was my last mission, everything else available had been played)

Due to our karma totals, the GM removed the "extras" from the fight, as well as the normal pre-existing damage on the creature. The big nasty seized the initiative, none of us contested by doing the same, used the multiple attack action pre-edged to make 2 claw attacks. Hit our giant and bounced off his 60-something, heavy hardened milspec wearing, post-edged soak pool. Missed the defensive specced mystic adapt by miles.

Both of the street sams had 6 edge, agility of 8/9 (respectively), heavy weapons 8 with assault canons specs, essence paid smart links, and the diagnostics sprite power running on their gauss rifles from the technomancer (with around 7 hits from the level 10 sprite). Roughly a dice pool of 27 and accuracy in the high teens. If memory serves, they both had fairly average dice rolls with 15ish hits after post edge re-rolling the misses. After the nasty also post-edged misses on its soak roll, it had taken something like 4 damage total from both hits.

The sniper ran agility 11, longarms 9 with spec, improved ability longarms 4, non-essence smartlink, same diagnostics, bulls-eye shot. Dice pool of 30ish, accuracy yes, again fairly average attack roll of 16ish post-edge hits.
After another post-edge soak, it had taken another 4 damage I think.

Now, in fairness, the onslaught of magical attacks that followed are what finished the thing off. Even if it had made it to another initiative pass though, at best the nasty costs one team member a permanent edge to survive, and then gets mowed down since it had no edge remaining to assist in soaking.

Also in fairness, this is not exactly a "standard" example, given the karma totals of the characters present. The point, however, is that there are a lot of ways for the mundanes to get buffed, which help vs. spirits. If we had been running element aura, analyze device, ect. on the street sams as well it would have been a lot worse.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-07-19/0945:33>
Analyze Device needs to die in a dumpster fire.

But yeah, it's an extreme fight so Blight would be great, on the other hand no way she wouldn't make the resist.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-07-19/1155:02>
Analyze Device needs to die in a dumpster fire.

Huh?

*rereads the WHOLE spell description*

Yeah, this is one of the stupidest things in 5th...

Edit: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm choosing to read that sentence as granting +1 die per hit to be a part of the bonus for the "if unskilled" contingency and not as a blanket "all the time" modifier (for any piece of gear you happen to pick up or be touching, to boot!).  Because otherwise... WTF.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Beta on <02-07-19/1222:20>
Analyze Device needs to die in a dumpster fire.

Yeah, this is one of the stupidest things in 5th...

Edit: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm choosing to read that sentence as granting +1 die per hit to be a part of the bonus for the "if unskilled" contingency and not as a blanket "all the time" modifier (for any piece of gear you happen to pick up or be touching, to boot!).  Because otherwise... WTF.

It is a bit weird.  because it goes against the object resistance table, for a non-focused mage it isn't very good on a lot of favorite toys (smartguns, vehicles, etc).  But once you get your die pool high enough, or there is a good opportunity to use it on something lower tech, it can be really potent.  It is odd that it helps more with a rock than a machine gun, you wouldn't think that there could be so much insight to gain from a rock, but apparently there is.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Kiirnodel on <02-07-19/1743:53>
Analyze Device needs to die in a dumpster fire.

Huh?

*rereads the WHOLE spell description*

Yeah, this is one of the stupidest things in 5th...

Edit: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm choosing to read that sentence as granting +1 die per hit to be a part of the bonus for the "if unskilled" contingency and not as a blanket "all the time" modifier (for any piece of gear you happen to pick up or be touching, to boot!).  Because otherwise... WTF.

I feel like I'm missing something. What's the problem with Analyze Device? You get a +1 per net hit and you don't suffer any penalties for being untrained. Seems straight-forward.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-07-19/1807:51>
As I rationalized upthread, if it's a dice pool bonus that applies only to an untrained skill, ok.  Actually quite a fair spell.

But a spell that gives you dice pool bonuses for using any skill involving any use of a weapon or tool at all... in effect becoming a spell that just gives you a dice pool bonus to every action you take (as described by Lormyr's group's use and implied by Michael Chandra's opinion on the spell)? Yeah, I have a problem with that interpretation. Especially on weapons/tools that you're already quite specialized with (a sniper's rifle, a decker's cyberdeck, a sammie's katana, etc).
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <02-07-19/1930:18>
I don't think any GM is going to give you a bonus to Intimidate for an Analyze Device'd Rock.  Throwing the rock, sure, whatever. 

In practice Analyze Device isn't so easy.  It's resisted by 9 or 15+ Dice for any weapon, 15+ for Decks.  Spellcasting pool is usually 12 dice.  14 if you've specialized in Detection Magic.  You've really got to specialize if you want to make it work. 

Leadership, Increase Attribute, or Diagnostics are a heck of a lot better in most cases. 

It's good, especially on a Mage that isn't going to be participating directly in combat.  Just sit back and sustain 6 spells or whatever.  Works great if that's what you want to do.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-07-19/2013:24>
I don't think any GM is going to give you a bonus to Intimidate for an Analyze Device'd Rock.  Throwing the rock, sure, whatever.

Threatening to hit someone with that rock sounds like a use of the Intimidate skill to me.

Quote
In practice Analyze Device isn't so easy.  It's resisted by 9 or 15+ Dice for any weapon, 15+ for Decks.  Spellcasting pool is usually 12 dice.  14 if you've specialized in Detection Magic.  You've really got to specialize if you want to make it work. 

...

It's good, especially on a Mage that isn't going to be participating directly in combat.  Just sit back and sustain 6 spells or whatever.  Works great if that's what you want to do.

What's "borken" about it is you don't cast it on the device, you cast it on the person who's gonna use a device.  Which means so long as it's sustained, it works on EVERY device.  A dice pool buff to nearly every skill you use can't possibly be what "Analyze Device" is meant to do.

Quote
Leadership, Increase Attribute, or Diagnostics are a heck of a lot better in most cases.
True, but in a game where you can have spirits, foci, or metamagic to maintain spells, there's no reason you can't stack 'em all.  Just because other bonuses out there are more impactful doesn't mean a passive bonus to "everything" needs to be a thing.

Or as I prefer to look at, even *IS* a thing.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <02-07-19/2103:05>
"This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the sense. "

I mean if you want to read that as every piece of equipment someone picks up, go ahead.  But do you re-roll the spell each time with a new resistance test?  The action cost for that isn't stated, and how many different bits can they have the bonus on.  I can't think of any other spell that works like that.  Every table I've played at, it's one cast for one piece of gear.  The sami wants a bonus to his Ingram, his Katana, and his sneaky shoes, that's three casts, three drain tests, and three sustains. 

In any case, the buff bot character isn't real popular.  If someone wants to focus on a sustain build and buff the rest of the team, I'm all for it.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-07-19/2142:54>
..OK those characters were superhero prime runners.   Still sounds like magic won the day though.  I'd imagine if those characters were downed by Blight, the outcome might have been a lot different and someone would have needed to get to the downed T-Bird.

The nastiest weapon we had on our team (not counting the 208 L thermobaric weapon on a drone we had orbiting nearby that my character Leela juryrigged up) was probably Leela's Ontari Interceptor double barrel launcher loaded with two AV rockets. I don't think any character I know of in our local group has a Thunderstruck.

On the Team Leela was on, I believe no character was more than 400 Karma though we had a some very combat capable characters on the mid 300s and a pyro mage with Bug Zapper which helped.

Long story short we made it to the downed Thunderbird while others along with the UCAS troops were keeping the beastie occupied long enough for our Rigger Knuckles to get a couple shots of with the rail gun (thanks to my character Leela's juryrigging skill) as well as finally load the missile with the chemical container and launch it (Leela and Knuckles both burned edge on a concentrated attack to get those auto successes [Combat Tactics is a wonderful skill sometimes]). 

As to reaching such high Karma levels, Leela has been through pretty much all the Chicago core missions and a good number of of the CMPs (including the four in the Fae Realm and Two of the April Fools ones) and currently is at 449 Karma (and she is one of our group's "high rollers"). She was at 362 when she went on 8-06.  I believe we have two maybe three characters in the entire group who are just above 500 Karma (and two I know belong to GMs who get GM Karma which can be applied to characters they play).   

..oh that thermobaric weapon, we never used it because of the collateral damage it would have caused to the UCAS troops and friendlies who were engaged with the big baddie (there's a reason they are often referred to as the "Poor Man's Nuke").
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <02-07-19/2251:31>
So, um...what happened to talking about the FAQ?


Speaking of which, in a previous FAQ discussion I asked about adding something regarding removing the Ďspamí from augmentation bundles by paying a doc (as mentioned in the flavor text).  Any chance this could be looked at for 1.4?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-08-19/0635:26>
..OK those characters were superhero prime runners.   Still sounds like magic won the day though.

Won the day? I wouldn't say that, personally. I would say they expedited the big nasty's defeat. That enemy literally had no attacks that could harm either of the street sams with a post-edged soak (if rolls stayed in the ball park of average that is). Those two characters alone would have eventually killed it by themselves once it ran out of edge to soak their damage, which would have happened well before they ran out of edge.

In a different sort of scenario, it could have easily just left the scene on the two however.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-09-19/0321:31>
...still, those all were insanely powerful characters compared to the teams my characters Leela and Milicent were on (Milicent was only a 115 Karma character at the time).

Nobody in our group has an 800 or 1,000 Karma character so even given the normal scenario, we needed the "easter eggs" to do the job or Chicago would have been nuked...

...again.

After years and years of playing the original Kyoto Kid character from 1e to 3e, she ended up with something like 380 Karma, and that was considered huge.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <02-09-19/0727:59>
...still, those all were insanely powerful characters compared to the teams my characters Leela and Milicent were on (Milicent was only a 115 Karma character at the time).

Yes, those particular PCs were overkill. Paletooth faired a greater challenge for us due to magic, but even that great western dragon basically got smoked without posing a threat (though it burnt edge to survive in our Mission, so didn't quite perish).

115 karma might be a little bit too low for that Mission, depending on the build. Even just playing the rest of the core season up to that point, without working for the people being considered, should have characters around 160 karma.

That said, it would honestly not be difficult to build a four man team at 100 karma each that can defeat that creature (without the extras present), with no magic in the party other than one Technomancer.

After years and years of playing the original Kyoto Kid character from 1e to 3e, she ended up with something like 380 Karma, and that was considered huge.

My only Shadowrun experience has been with Missions. I started playing at the end of 2014. We played weekly for years before moving to bi-weekly last year. So it took about 4 to 4 1/2 years to run my main through every legal Chicago Mission. Working for the people accounts for probably 1/3 to 1/4 of that karma total.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-09-19/0803:54>
My character was a little below 50 karma at the time.  So you don't need it, a strong build, know how and a some edge will take you very far.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-15-19/1107:41>
New order of business:

Over in another thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28901.msg511669#msg511669) it was recently said that Forbidden Arcana's statement that Mystic Adepts may not use Enchanting was not a misprint and in fact an intended "stealth nerf" to the rules as presented in the Core Rulebook (that says Mystic Adepts can use Enchanting).

Assuming that is a correct claim (I have no way of personally knowing if it is or isn't), what's SRM's stance going to be on Forbidden Arcana saying Mystic Adepts have no access to Enchanting?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: kyoto kid on <02-15-19/2328:16>
...still, those all were insanely powerful characters compared to the teams my characters Leela and Milicent were on (Milicent was only a 115 Karma character at the time).

Yes, those particular PCs were overkill. Paletooth faired a greater challenge for us due to magic, but even that great western dragon basically got smoked without posing a threat (though it burnt edge to survive in our Mission, so didn't quite perish).

115 karma might be a little bit too low for that Mission, depending on the build. Even just playing the rest of the core season up to that point, without working for the people being considered, should have characters around 160 karma.

That said, it would honestly not be difficult to build a four man team at 100 karma each that can defeat that creature (without the extras present), with no magic in the party other than one Technomancer.

After years and years of playing the original Kyoto Kid character from 1e to 3e, she ended up with something like 380 Karma, and that was considered huge.

My only Shadowrun experience has been with Missions. I started playing at the end of 2014. We played weekly for years before moving to bi-weekly last year. So it took about 4 to 4 1/2 years to run my main through every legal Chicago Mission. Working for the people accounts for probably 1/3 to 1/4 of that karma total.
...yeah Milicent was a good build considering her TKE at the time as she had the right skills, as well as a bit of moxie, to come up with what was probably the most bizarre and ridiculous "pink mohawk" solution to the situation which surprisingly worked.  Desperation is sometimes the mother of invention as well.

As to my involvement in Missions I didn't start until late 2015.  Before 4e I played in and GM's a number of home brew campaigns, but hit a drought for a number of years here and as in serious need of a Shadowrun fix.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <02-17-19/1253:54>
New order of business:

Over in another thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28901.msg511669#msg511669) it was recently said that Forbidden Arcana's statement that Mystic Adepts may not use Enchanting was not a misprint and in fact an intended "stealth nerf" to the rules as presented in the Core Rulebook (that says Mystic Adepts can use Enchanting).

Assuming that is a correct claim (I have no way of personally knowing if it is or isn't), what's SRM's stance going to be on Forbidden Arcana saying Mystic Adepts have no access to Enchanting?

Eh. I'd rather just ban MA outright and stop fooling around with this nonsense, or failing that roll out the priority magic changes. Calling it a "stealth nerf" seems like a misrepresentation to me. MA needs some balance, is anyone actually gonna try argue this isn't true? Dropping Enchanting is about the smallest possible nerf imaginable, and falls pretty short imo.


Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-17-19/1309:17>
...

Eh. I'd rather just ban MA outright and stop fooling around with this nonsense, or failing that roll out the priority magic changes. Calling it a "stealth nerf" seems like a misrepresentation to me. MA needs some balance, is anyone actually gonna try argue this isn't true? Dropping Enchanting is about the smallest possible nerf imaginable, and falls pretty short imo.

I agree completely, but that's for the Nerfing FAQ/Errata Committee. The SRM Committee doesn't have all that power, just the power to clarify which rule trumps which for SRM.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Fedifensor on <03-01-19/1057:48>
Kill Code is now in Hero Lab, so I have a new FAQ question!


The FAQ lists the following for Ways in Street Grimoire:
Quote
Do Ways cost 40 Karma to purchase after character generation? (Street Grimoire, pg. 173)
No, these are a special subset of qualities that do not double in price after character generation.
Does the same apply to Streams for Technomancers?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <03-01-19/1802:43>
Kill Code specifically says Streams do not cost double after chargen.  Should be good to go.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: marlocfavirzal on <05-25-19/1334:43>
I see that Chicago got a Submersion Group (Virtual Tribe), but Neo-Tokyo did not. Is it possible for Neo-Tokyo players to join the Chicago group, while we wait, since it is all digital?

EDIT: Jayde Moon replied in another thread
A Virtual Tribe will be pushed out for Origins.  Look for that soon.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Slamm-O! on <06-18-19/1750:56>
Can we get an update for the contact listing for Neo Tokyo to show who survived and who didn't in season 9 Mission 6.  Nothing was made 'official' and there are some questions about it.

Forbidden Arcana:
Pg. 182
Optional Rule: THE MENTORíS MASK ~ can we add this on ?  It's a pretty thematic effect with a huge negative drawback. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: prophet42 on <06-19-19/2236:30>
Can we get an update for the contact listing for Neo Tokyo to show who survived and who didn't in season 9 Mission 6.  Nothing was made 'official' and there are some questions about it. 

+1

Wanting to see how screwed my team is based on their decisions.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <06-23-19/1914:00>
Unofficial announcement here, then:

I was surprised that it was a complete sweep, but bottom line, by canon, the three Mita-Gumi contacts are deceased.

It will be more clearly detailed in the next FAQ release, and we will find a place for it in the Season 10 Missions themselves.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-24-19/0246:47>
I'm impressed! Now I need to go look these up and figure out why people so eagerly went against them. Were they as slimy as Simon Andrews?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <06-24-19/1622:41>
Slimon Andrews.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <06-25-19/0933:36>
Slimon Andrews.

First, Simon is awesome but I understand haters gotta hate.

Second the Mita-Gumi  were total jerks.  Consistently.  Absolutely horrible people across the board.  Can't imagine that the overall player choices were really a surprise.  Plus who'd be against the Oni in the Hawaiian shirts?  He was my favorite, nobody would want to off him.  Totally harmless. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Kiirnodel on <06-25-19/1925:06>
Second the Mita-Gumi  were total jerks.  Consistently.  Absolutely horrible people across the board.  Can't imagine that the overall player choices were really a surprise.  Plus who'd be against the Oni in the Hawaiian shirts?  He was my favorite, nobody would want to off him.  Totally harmless. 

How was the lawyer with the youth outreach program a jerk?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: prophet42 on <06-26-19/1153:40>
Unofficial announcement here, then:

I was surprised that it was a complete sweep, but bottom line, by canon, the three Mita-Gumi contacts are deceased.

It will be more clearly detailed in the next FAQ release, and we will find a place for it in the Season 10 Missions themselves.

Will there be some sort of work around for the teams that opted to side with the Mita-Gumi?

Or are they just fated to always be looking over their shoulders when they get calls/missions from/for the Inagawa-kai?
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <06-26-19/1208:33>
Second the Mita-Gumi  were total jerks.  Consistently.  Absolutely horrible people across the board.  Can't imagine that the overall player choices were really a surprise.  Plus who'd be against the Oni in the Hawaiian shirts?  He was my favorite, nobody would want to off him.  Totally harmless. 

How was the lawyer with the youth outreach program a jerk?

Youth Outreach?  That was a recruitment program.  Those kids wound up either arrested, dead, junkies, prostitutes or, if they were lucky, as disposable thugs.  The Lawyer was paying the street kids to do illegal things, I was not given the impression that magically stopped at age 12.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <06-26-19/1224:46>
Unofficial announcement here, then:

I was surprised that it was a complete sweep, but bottom line, by canon, the three Mita-Gumi contacts are deceased.

It will be more clearly detailed in the next FAQ release, and we will find a place for it in the Season 10 Missions themselves.

Will there be some sort of work around for the teams that opted to side with the Mita-Gumi?

Or are they just fated to always be looking over their shoulders when they get calls/missions from/for the Inagawa-kai?

Welcome to a shared campaign!  YMMV.  There are some missions where player actions have an impact on other missions.  If it doesn't match with what the PC did, they just have to head cannon/hand waive.  I've played the same missions with multiple characters and had different outcomes, played with different players who did previous missions differently... you just kinda have to roll with it sometimes. 

If a GM has a table full of PCs that all made similar choices (or played the same game even) a Mission GM can improv a bit to keep the story line intact. 
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-26-19/1228:53>
SRM FAQ v1.3 pg 30:

Quote
Iím playing a Mission and there appears to be a narrative paradox, I have a Contact from a previous Mission
but the other players are telling me that he was killed in their last Mission. Do I still have the Contact?

Sometimes, there will be instances when characters have experienced very different versions of the same
events or some will have participated in adventures that others havenít and the disposition of particular contacts will
be different. When this occurs, the player who possesses the contact still has access to that contact and the player for
whom that contact no longer exists should play it off as if the contact being used is different from the one they know
to be dead. A little bit off hand-waving to move things along.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: prophet42 on <06-26-19/1251:12>
I suppose it'll just be a weird situation then for my team.

Perhaps the Yakuza (in general) & the Inagawa-kai (in particular) won't be the driving force for most of the missions in Season 10.
Title: Re: SRM FAQ 1.3 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <06-26-19/1410:55>
The focus does change in Season 10.

GMs and players are encouraged to alter the stories just enough to make it fit.

Went after and killed Yoriko in 09-06?  Alter the story so that it was another Inagawa-kai street boss, not Yoriko in particular.  Now, she's still alive and doesn't have a memory of you trying to gut her.

As Hobbes put it, welcome to the shared campaign.