Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Fatespinner on (03:52:18/01-10-19)

Title: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fatespinner on (03:52:18/01-10-19)
Hi all,

how do all your Squatter und Low Lifestype characters get to bars, run locations or meetings with a Johnson? Sometimes you can ask your Rigger to pick you up, but depending on your location and the size of the Sprawl, it might be no option.

I was thinking about using a spirit with the movement power for my shaman? Would that work?
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (03:57:15/01-10-19)
Public transport, or rent a cab.

Under RAW, a Spirit can only use Movement on others within their own Domain. Since Domains aren't defined and a normal summoned spirit wouldn't really have one anyway (Free Spirits sure, and maybe one can argue aspected background counts apply), they can't boost/penalize others.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fatespinner on (04:06:37/01-10-19)
A summoned spirit doesn't have a domain? I was always under the impression that they have one. So the domain for a spirit of man would be a house or city.

A cab is a good idea. Public transportation can sometimes be difficult, but it is of course cheaper.

A bike would take to long and would be unstylish.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Kiirnodel on (04:44:33/01-10-19)
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

As far as the spirit "domain" issue goes, the mention of a domain is primarily a hold-over from previous editions. And even still, it is not referring to a sense of ownership over a specific space. It would be much more accurate to attribute the limitation the Fatespinner suggested. A Spirit of Man can only apply movement in urban areas, a spirit of earth, only while touching the ground, water in water, and air in air (I would primarily apply this as while not in a confined space, such as underground).
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Marcus on (04:48:30/01-10-19)
We had a character in one game who began every run with trying to sneak out of his parent's house. It was always an amusing little opening vignette.

Public transport is the official answer, life style cost discuss a bus pass, or train pass.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:06:13/01-10-19)
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

As far as the spirit "domain" issue goes, the mention of a domain is primarily a hold-over from previous editions. And even still, it is not referring to a sense of ownership over a specific space. It would be much more accurate to attribute the limitation the Fatespinner suggested. A Spirit of Man can only apply movement in urban areas, a spirit of earth, only while touching the ground, water in water, and air in air (I would primarily apply this as while not in a confined space, such as underground).
The problem with that logic is that it makes spirit-terrorism way too easy, since any Spirit of Air would be able to look at planes and make them crash (especially since the description of Movement on Vehicles dates from 3e, which had way different rules for vehicle speed). And what would be the domain of a Guardian Spirit? Plus Movement is horribly overpowered if it's allowed to be used freely*, so restricting it to aspected makes more sense than allowing it to be used as long as you are 'in the city', 'in the open air', 'on a battlefield', etc.

*: In my campaign I had both a movement-rate percentual restriction and only allowed it when Channeling, and it was still so overpowered that the Rigger didn't feel like rigging anymore since people were faster than vehicles anyway.

tl;dr: Movement's description is in desperate need of significant errata, and allowing Movement to be used freely makes it way too powerful and game-breaking.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fatespinner on (05:21:35/01-10-19)
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

Well that is true. But the mage in question is a troll mage. Maybe a Skateboard (with movement power, but not super faster) and using streets would be a more sensible way to go. Avoiding crashes would be the biggest problem, but if the spirit also has the guard power it might be much more safe.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fatespinner on (05:22:20/01-10-19)
We had a character in one game who began every run with trying to sneak out of his parent's house. It was always an amusing little opening vignette.

That is really cool. Something that I might steal for a future character.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (09:40:52/01-10-19)
This is borderline "needs a new thread" stuff, but the Movement critter power has always bugged me.  I routinely see SRM players summoning a big F9 Spirit of Man to give them a 100+MPH walking speed 'anywhere in the Sprawl', rendering vehicles basically irrelevant.  In the SR5 core rulebook it does call out that a critter can only use the Movement power inside its domain/terrain.  In earlier editions the concept of a Spirit's Domain was defined, but it isn't so in 5th.

However Street Grimoire DOES define domain: It's an area of aspected mana that is that way due to an emotional or psychological significance.  In other words, Domains are a kind of Background Count.

Limiting the Movement critter power to work only in BGC's aspected towards the spirit is a great way to instill some reasonableness as you might be able to walk in excess of 100mph, you won't be able to go FAR doing so because the domain can reasonably only be so big.

OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain?  Is it being a dick of a GM to say that a given Spirit of Man's terrain is just the streets and only the streets (or maybe even only certain streets)?  And another's is just a given neighborhood?  And another's is just this one campus or mall? etc... 

What I've been doing in practice is just denying that they're able to hit the raw speeds the math says they can hit by maxing out buffs and multipliers.  I keep vehicles relevant by expanding the tidbit in R5 that says any Winged movement speed is faster than any Rotor movement speed, which in turn is faster than any Ground movement speed, and etc.  So I say that any vehicle or drone is flatly automatically faster than any possible "augmented" walk speed, however much or little mathematical sense that makes.  Of course it'd only really matter in a chase, as being able to walk impossibly fast still more or less renders vehicles moot from a transportation point of view...
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Sphinx on (09:56:57/01-10-19)
I played a street shaman for a while who'd use the Shapechange spell to get around the sprawl as a bird when teammates weren't available to give him rides. Of course, there was the "no clothing or gear" problem, but he had Physical Mask and Personal Warmth spells to cover that angle.

Hackers should be able to arrange free rides in autocabs, anywhere GridGuide goes. You just need to beat a rating 2 or 3 Pilot program, and keep an eye on your Overwatch Score.

Lifestyle expenses (Low or better) would probably cover a bus pass or rail pass.

As a last resort, feet work fine when you're not in a hurry. You can cover a lot of ground in a few hours; and a lot more with a spirit's Movement power.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fatespinner on (10:08:46/01-10-19)
Hackers should be able to arrange free rides in autocabs, anywhere GridGuide goes. You just need to beat a rating 2 or 3 Pilot program, and keep an eye on your Overwatch Score.

Lifestyle expenses (Low or better) would probably cover a bus pass or rail pass.

As a last resort, feet work fine when you're not in a hurry. You can cover a lot of ground in a few hours; and a lot more with a spirit's Movement power.

This is really good advice. A hacker connection might be used to give you a free ride. Service trading is a common thing in the shadows and so this really fits the theme well.

It is sad that the movement power is so often misused. But normally traveling fast without some other protection would require some difficult skill tests. Plus this option is only available for mages that can summon spirits. So if you want to move equipment, go unnoticed, go safe or in bad weather, then you still need regular transportation. I can see that this power can reduce some fun, but I guess that it is often used to bypass boring traveling scenes. It is no game breaker or?
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Reaver on (14:00:07/01-10-19)
OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain? 

Well, if you want to go back and look at the evolution of Spirits in SR, then a Spirit of Man is just a hearth spirit from the early editions. That would make a Spirit of Man's Domain to be the interior spaces of buildings...



But yea, there is a host of issues with the movement power, that much is clear.


But i think we have touched on a more serious issue that either isn't covered enough, or has just been glossed over for what ever reason.

And that issue is:

IN THE UCAS AND THE CAS, MAGIC IS REGULATED, LICENSED, AND CONTROLLED!

Seriously, they really haven't done a good job of stressing just how badly all this is regulated in Shadowrun...

I think in all of 5e I may have seen a single paragraph on this topic in SG..
In all of 4e you got about 1/2 page on the topic (SM, page 13/14)
In 3e, you got a full page in MitS (page 11) and several other blurbs in other books.
In 2e, you had legal write ups for magic in several books (Neo A, and others.. Awakenings was surprisingly empty on the topic however)


The Basic gist was:

Walking while Awakened, while technically not a crime, gets you eyebrows if noticed and NOT registered.

EVERY mage who wants to cast any spell, (ANY. SPELL. FULL STOP) summon any spirit (ANY. SPIRIT. FULL STOP, again), or use a spirit ability, MUST be a registered, and licensed mage, with a permit to cast or summon said spirit.

Mages who use a spell in the commission of a crime is considered a "Premeditated Act" Meaning usually extra long, extra harsh sentences.
Mages are fully responsible for all actions a summoned spirit commits, EVEN IF ITS NOT UNDER HIS CONTROL! So a spirit breaks free from you, and burns down that apartment block... Premeditated Arson, And Multiple Premeditated Homicide charges. 

When a mage is encountered on the street, even for random questioning, they are treated as threatening, Armed, and Dangerous. (so expect a gun pointed at you even while just handing over your ID).


So your mage, using a spirit with the movement power could be up a seriously powerful creek without a paddle...
Does he have an Awakened SIN (legal or fake?)? Does he have permits for that summons? And that power usage? How far is he really moving when he is getting Astrally buzzed by KE patrols demanding he stop and wait for a physical unit to come by and check his ID.


(The 2e security and world books did a much better job of describing just how prevalent magic security was, where is was most encountered, how the police handled magic, and magic threats..)



We could really use and updated Laws, Lifestyle, and Lay of the Land  book.  (Hint hint writers :D)




Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Beta on (15:12:47/01-10-19)
I mostly want to second everything that Reaver just wrote, but also quibble with one point:  I think Spirit of Man pulls together both Hearth Spirits and City Spirits.  (And having played an (urban) racoon shaman back in first edition, I remember well the issues created by losing your spirit every time you went in and out of a building, and how I always preferred to deal with issues on the streets because of the bonus for calling City Spirits.)
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (16:03:29/01-10-19)
With regards to legality of magic (and using spirits instead of vehicles)... the Neo-Tokyo setting in SRM has a fun suggestion representing the "Big Brother" police presence: an opposed Edge vs Force roll.  If the magician doesn't win versus the force of the spell/spirit he's using, the Po-po show up to investigate the magical "disturbance". Check SINs/Licences... and then there's no reason the cops can't just follow the suspicious shadowrunner around even if the fakes pass muster.  It'd be pretty awkward to show up to the meet with Mr. Johnson with the police following you.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Grizzly on (16:49:03/01-10-19)
OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain?  Is it being a dick of a GM to say that a given Spirit of Man's terrain is just the streets and only the streets (or maybe even only certain streets)?  And another's is just a given neighborhood?  And another's is just this one campus or mall? etc... 

This is what my old GM used to do back in 1ed days, and it kind've went with the force of the spirit.  Calling up a low-level spirit got you something local, something representing the street you were on or neighborhood you were in.  Trying to tap into the spirit of the entire Sprawl would be a major feat facing down a seriously high-force spirit (and given that it's the Sprawl you're calling on, with a pretty mean-ass attitude to boot).
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: RickDeckard on (15:39:39/01-26-19)
Skateboard and an electro-magnet with a retracable cord for hooking onto cars =)
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: kyoto kid on (23:59:45/01-28-19)
...as to such conveyances as skateboards, rollerblades, and bicycles, I have not been able to find anywhere what kind of modifiers they would grant and what skill they would require. I guess running would be a reasonable skill for rollerblades/skates but for a bicycle or skateboard where mechanics or gravity are involved, what would you use?

To get around needing a vehicle to travel to a meet, a Face character of mine in Missions had a Loyalty 4 Connection 3 Taxi Driver contact.  He was also great for legwork.

Of course I now can't get this vision of my character Leela in her Medium Milspec with a Onotari Interceptor strapped across her back pedalling her way to a meet in the CZ on of those mountain bikes with the really big tyres (fortunately she has a tricked out GMC Universe).
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (07:45:22/01-29-19)
...as to such conveyances as skateboards, rollerblades, and bicycles, I have not been able to find anywhere what kind of modifiers they would grant and what skill they would require. I guess running would be a reasonable skill for rollerblades/skates but for a bicycle or skateboard where mechanics or gravity are involved, what would you use?



Google maps for calculating non-combat time when using a Bike for transportation.  Just get a ballpark estimate.  In Combat a Bike is just a vehicle, call it Acceleration 1, Speed 3, cheap bike call it handling of 2, good bike up to 4.  And a good bike would have a Pilot and Sensor ratings.  A Cheap bike would probably be a throwback.  Mountain Bikes of course would have Off Road Suspension... ect, ect.  Toss in some occasional Fatigue tests for long rides.  And probably some Social Modifiers after the ride if they don't have a way of getting cleaned up and changed.

If combat skateboarding ever comes up, this is a good problem to have.  Cyberskates from Chrome Flesh p. 88 would work well enough.

Lots of GM fiat involved as to how much terrain and weather is going to matter. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: RickDeckard on (07:59:02/01-29-19)
...as to such conveyances as skateboards, rollerblades, and bicycles, I have not been able to find anywhere what kind of modifiers they would grant and what skill they would require. I guess running would be a reasonable skill for rollerblades/skates but for a bicycle or skateboard where mechanics or gravity are involved, what would you use?

To get around needing a vehicle to travel to a meet, a Face character of mine in Missions had a Loyalty 4 Connection 3 Taxi Driver contact.  He was also great for legwork.

Of course I now can't get this vision of my character Leela in her Medium Milspec with a Onotari Interceptor strapped across her back pedalling her way to a meet in the CZ on of those mountain bikes with the really big tyres (fortunately she has a tricked out GMC Universe).

If you feel the need to roll for regular transportation (I don't) then I'd say this probably falls under Gymnastics.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: SmilinIrish on (12:04:28/02-03-19)
Happy to see this discussion involve movement power.  I've never conceived of my runner using the spirit movement power to be the flash and run all over town.  I've only ever tried using it to get my low agility dwarf's abysmal movement rate to equal everyone else's when the SHTF.  Anyone (Michael?) see a problem with using it in this fashion? 

I've also assumed that you have some control over the multiplier.  Says you can multiply rate by the force of the spirit.  Can you choose to multiply by a lesser value?  A person can walk as slowly as they want.  So if its a straight mulitplier, with no adjustment, couldn't the person just walk slower so the multiplier doesn't matter?  If the mage regularly does this for themself, I believe he would be used to adjusting.  Using it on the Rigger's vehicle for the first time, or on your extraction target for the first time, seems like fumbles are possible. 

Thoughts?

And to answer OP, I see my low resource mage character using the cheap fake SIN and taking a bus or cab.  That way the movement can't be tracked by his good SIN.  I haven't played missions, so its not a problem for the character to figure out every time there is a run.  We are a constant team.  So the guys with bikes ride their bikes, my mage and the monkey dwarf ridge with the rigger.

Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (13:02:53/02-03-19)
Even in missions you can often end up with the same characters over and over.  My Chicago campaign decker played fairly often with a troll close combat adept who didn't own his own vehicle.  It became a recurring joke that he'd ride in my Americar's "rumble seat"... the trunk!
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (14:16:53/02-03-19)
Happy to see this discussion involve movement power.  I've never conceived of my runner using the spirit movement power to be the flash and run all over town.  I've only ever tried using it to get my low agility dwarf's abysmal movement rate to equal everyone else's when the SHTF.  Anyone (Michael?) see a problem with using it in this fashion? 

I've also assumed that you have some control over the multiplier.  Says you can multiply rate by the force of the spirit.  Can you choose to multiply by a lesser value?  A person can walk as slowly as they want.  So if its a straight mulitplier, with no adjustment, couldn't the person just walk slower so the multiplier doesn't matter?  If the mage regularly does this for themself, I believe he would be used to adjusting.  Using it on the Rigger's vehicle for the first time, or on your extraction target for the first time, seems like fumbles are possible. 

Thoughts?



The movement power isn't some comically uncontrolled "first time with Superspeed" thing.  If you only want to move 50 meters, you do.

GMs shouldn't have an issue with using the Movement power to make a character run faster.  Movement power gets abusive when you use it to accelerate your Nissan Jackrabbit to Mach 2.  Don't do that.

Also good for getting the heck out of Dodge, Shapechange, Wreck [Wall], and the creative wizards omni-tool Trid Phantasm. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (15:15:39/02-03-19)
A dodge scoot isn't that pricey, it seems a good way to go for the low budget runner.  you can bring it into your low lifestyle apartment. Squatters I usually tell the player to go back to the drawing board.

Movement power the domain of air spirits used to be anything under the open air which made them the premier movement power based spirit.  But back in the day i never saw people summoning force 9 spirits though. It was more force 3-4 usually which was still stupid applied to vehicles but not much crazier than a street sam running when on foot. Honestly while the movement power in particular needs a rewrite the whole spirit summoning thing does as well, its too easy to get force 9+ which then means you are relying on the GM to background count balance things. The design should be for them to be balanced at the core with things like background count thrown in for occasional flavor, to add a extra challenge etc. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (15:31:02/02-03-19)
Yeah, increasing the movement multiplier by F/3, or even by an exponentially decreasing force curve would be a great way to hot-fix the movement power.

That or geographically limit the applicability. "Yeah I'm a Spirit of Man? What of it? My domain ended at 6th street. My Movement power doesn't work east of that..."
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (15:39:24/02-03-19)
Yeah, increasing the movement multiplier by F/3, or even by an exponentially decreasing force curve would be a great way to hot-fix the movement power.

That or geographically limit the applicability. "Yeah I'm a Spirit of Man? What of it? My domain ended at 6th street. My Movement power doesn't work east of that..."

I always thought a flat extra meters of movement per combat turn would suffice. Like for the purposes of movement your agility is increased by the spirits force or just, X extra meters per force. And maybe not allow it on vehicles.  Don't get me wrong BMX bandit is entertaining and all so its kind of amusing to have super speed from a spirit, but its one extra really powerful trick on top of their already ludicrous abilities.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (16:03:02/02-03-19)
A dodge scoot isn't that pricey, it seems a good way to go for the low budget runner.  you can bring it into your low lifestyle apartment. Squatters I usually tell the player to go back to the drawing board.



Renault Fun-One or the Horizon Double Revolution are the cheapest enclosed vehicles. 

Squatter?  "You walk out of the coffin hotel, out of Nuyen and wondering what overpass you'll be sleeping under tonight when your commlink lights up with your Fixers number.  About friggen time...."

"You've been sleeping on your girlfriends couch for the past couple weeks... well, ex-girlfriend.  And its starting to get awkward, especially last night when she brought her new boyfriend home.  Better start making some calls if you want to find your own place."

"You wake up with a jump as the Lone Star beat cop bangs on your Ford Americar's window.  Last nights takeout containers go spilling off your chest onto the floor.  The cop gives you the move along signal, no more Free Parking here chummer."

ect, ect, ect.

Starting Shadowrun characters are going to be missing something, somewhere.  Either a piece of gear, or some skill, some attribute at 1, or something.  Its only an issue if it goes on for multiple runs.  Just make sure the player knows your expectations as a GM.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: kyoto kid on (17:50:26/02-03-19)
Even in missions you can often end up with the same characters over and over.  My Chicago campaign decker played fairly often with a troll close combat adept who didn't own his own vehicle.  It became a recurring joke that he'd ride in my Americar's "rumble seat"... the trunk!
...if you've run a character in a number of missions, most of the time yes, there likely will be someone will be in the group who has a vehicle that one's character has done a run with before.  Starting a new character however (like my Decker, Violet), that isn't the case.

When the funds are there, it's good to get something to gt around with even in missions, as well as pick up a few ranks in Pilot Ground Vehicle just in case.  I've been on a few runs where none of the characters previously met each other, and getting to a meet in the CZ was tricky for some (taxis usually stay on the other side of the wall, they'll drop you near a gate but then you are on your own).
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Wenlocke on (18:46:51/02-03-19)
My main issue with vehicles is utility. Specifically, what can I carry and how obviously? I can't see any objective measure of cargo capacity in the books, unless I'm missing it, so having to rely on the description and type can be a bit hit and miss.
e.g. Its fairly obvious that a crotch-rocket style racing bike pretty much you have you and anything in your pockets, on straps, or on a strap-on bag. One of the big hogs you could possibly have back or side boxes, but no idea from a rules pov whether that's small box  or large box level. Even with cars it's a problem. Does a given car have room to hide a body in the boot? It's not clear.

Basically what's the 5th ed equivalent of Cargo Factor
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (22:17:02/02-03-19)
My main issue with vehicles is utility. Specifically, what can I carry and how obviously? I can't see any objective measure of cargo capacity in the books, unless I'm missing it, so having to rely on the description and type can be a bit hit and miss.


All GM fiat. Trying to figure out how much stuff you can fit in vehicle isn't worth the hundreds of pages of weight and volume stats.  And it brings a entirely new meaning to stacking rules.  Just no. 

Rifles don't fit on Bikes without being seen.  But you can put 'em in a duffel bag and strap it to the back.  Two pages of gear on a Dodge Scoot, no.  Handful of items that would fit in a Carry on bag?  Whatever, carry on. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (22:19:23/02-03-19)
Bear in mind that earlier editions DID have a mechanic for tracking vehicles' internal volume.  And they were nightmares to adjudicate.

We're better off simply leaving such questions completely to GM discretion.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Wenlocke on (06:05:38/02-04-19)
Bear in mind that earlier editions DID have a mechanic for tracking vehicles' internal volume.  And they were nightmares to adjudicate.

We're better off simply leaving such questions completely to GM discretion.

I used to have the original RBB, so I remember far too well how complicated it could get if you used all the variations. I guess what I really feel like I want is something that says "This bike has side-boxes/underseat stowage" or "this car has a significantly sized boot" or "don't bother trying to fit in more than your golf-clubs."  We have it for some of the vehicles from the commentary, but its a tad hit and miss.

Ah well. Anonymous small "generic" car it is then
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (07:44:43/02-04-19)
Basically what's the 5th ed equivalent of Cargo Factor
That's rather easy for the GM to fiat, isn't it? Most vehicles have a rough equivalent IRL, and while you might not have a number of vehicles lying around waiting for you to measuring their storage capacity you've probably opened a number of different trunks in your lifetime. You can easily work from memory, or hit up professor Google if you want to be sure. I imagine most medium cars could fit a human, dwarf or elf body in the back, maybe an orc if you really worked it in there. A troll body, you'd probably want a pickup for that.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (08:02:04/02-04-19)

I used to have the original RBB, so I remember far too well how complicated it could get if you used all the variations. I guess what I really feel like I want is something that says "This bike has side-boxes/underseat stowage" or "this car has a significantly sized boot" or "don't bother trying to fit in more than your golf-clubs."  We have it for some of the vehicles from the commentary, but its a tad hit and miss.

Ah well. Anonymous small "generic" car it is then

All bikes have some kind of storage.  Either Saddlebags, a small rack on the back of the seat, or under the seat.  Dirt Bikes are about the only kind of Motorized Bike I've ever seen that don't have something.  And aftermarket racks and such are common, and cheap. 

See also Increased Seating (sidecar), and Smuggling Compartment.   

Don't get dragged down in the ticky-tacky.  If you can fit your gear in a duffel bag just grab some bungee cords and carry on. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: SmilinIrish on (13:12:43/02-04-19)


Squatter?  "You walk out of the coffin hotel, out of Nuyen and wondering what overpass you'll be sleeping under tonight when your commlink lights up with your Fixers number.  About friggen time...."

"You've been sleeping on your girlfriends couch for the past couple weeks... well, ex-girlfriend.  And its starting to get awkward, especially last night when she brought her new boyfriend home.  Better start making some calls if you want to find your own place."

"You wake up with a jump as the Lone Star beat cop bangs on your Ford Americar's window.  Last nights takeout containers go spilling off your chest onto the floor.  The cop gives you the move along signal, no more Free Parking here chummer."

ect, ect, ect.

Starting Shadowrun characters are going to be missing something, somewhere.  Either a piece of gear, or some skill, some attribute at 1, or something.  Its only an issue if it goes on for multiple runs.  Just make sure the player knows your expectations as a GM.

I am a fan of starting characters with low resources.  I like money being the motivation to do runs.  I often take squatter at character gen, which I view as having paid for a month at a coffin motel.  In at night, you and all your stuff better be out by 7.  Can't stash stuff there, but you have a place to sleep.  After the first run, get yourself a dump of your own, or pay to share lifestyle with a teammate.  Until that low lifestyle is purchased, you'd better pay for everything you need, meals etc out of pocket. 
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Hobbes on (15:31:42/02-04-19)
Food and shelter are solid motivators to find work.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:08:10/02-06-19)
Yeah, increasing the movement multiplier by F/3, or even by an exponentially decreasing force curve would be a great way to hot-fix the movement power.

That or geographically limit the applicability. "Yeah I'm a Spirit of Man? What of it? My domain ended at 6th street. My Movement power doesn't work east of that..."
I used restrictions based on environment, obstacles, etc. So over rooftops you gained (F-1)/5, on the highway 3x(F-1)/5, on open solid terrain the full boost. But that was too powerful, and I should have halved the bonus and THEN restricted based on circumstances.

Also, I initially made my brother get Speed Reader to handle moving at those high speeds. And this was only allowed while Channeling, due to the Domain-restrictions (only Free Spirits can aspect to themselves personally, others would be restricted to tradition-based backgrounds). Plus inside small spaces (running through corridors) there were acceleration/deceleration rules and athletic-tests for corners.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Ghost Rigger on (21:00:54/02-06-19)
Also, I initially made my brother get Speed Reader to handle moving at those high speeds.
At those sorts of speeds, I should think being able to read the street names would be the least of his concerns.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (02:24:41/02-07-19)
Also, I initially made my brother get Speed Reader to handle moving at those high speeds.
At those sorts of speeds, I should think being able to read the street names would be the least of his concerns.
True, but it represented being able to properly process everything at that speed here (as in, no horribly-blurred vision when going at >300km/hour).
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:49:57/02-09-19)
I used the falling damage rules as a game mechanic model for running into a wall or tripping at the velocities involved in tricked out Movement Power speeds.

It's pretty fatal.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: kyoto kid on (01:33:26/02-10-19)
...crikey, I can attest to that in RL 

The other night I was boarding the street tram to head home from the weekly Missions night at at our FLGS and before I could sit down the tram took off from the stop like it was on afterburners or something without warning, causing me to tumble down into the low floor section, where I was able to break the fall with my forehead.  Spent 3 hrs in the emergency where I got 10 stitches after several tests and still recovering.

It's not the movement which is the issue, it's that abrupt change in Δv that's the killer.

...and when I find the mage who had that spirit use movement on the tram, so help me.... >:(
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Tarislar on (03:35:51/02-10-19)
Both my Seattle magic types had Scooter clones at chargen.

Yeah, its lame but it gets the job done.

My Denver character just had a $100 bicycle that he used to get to his PT Job.

In either case if we had to travel far then I would travel in someone elses car/truck.


I don't have an issue with spirits being outside their domains now that we are past 1E-3E where Domains was a thing.

I do have an issue with using them willy nilly when the local cops are going to see it.

Manifested spirits just isn't a common thing on the city streets.

I think the way the rules work now is broken, the example from all the way back in SR1 was of a walking shaman moving like a sprinting man IIRC, not moving like a speeding car or jet fighter.

I just don't see a person walking getting past sprinting speed (18MPH?) while running on foot might get up to a fast bicycle speed (30 MPH), so maybe hauling arse on a Bike with spirit gets you up to 60 but as pointed out, your going to hate life if you wipe out.   You'd better be burning another service on Guard to protect your hoop from crashing.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: kyoto kid on (20:03:03/02-10-19)
...I used to be a long distance touring and racing cyclist way back in my early college days (when chrome-moly frames and sew up tyres were the big thing). Yeah saw Breaking Away, yeah I would draft big rigs on the highway outside of town (probably the closest in RL to having a spirit aid your movement).  Total rush but you pray hard there isn't a rock or some other piece of debris in the road as the rescue crew would just show up with a high pressure hose and push broom to wash the film streak you left behind off the blacktop.

One time this fellow on a motorcycle pulled alongside and paced me, I couldn't hear what he was shouting over the noise of his machine.  When we got into town and had to wait for a red light, he said at the point he pulled alongside I was doing 47 MPH.

Was also into freestyle skiing at the time (back when we were called "hot doggers" [oft considered the "scourge" of he slopes then] who used short skis for all the crazy aerial stuff, nothing like they do in the X-games or Olympics today though).

Yeah, was one of those crazy young college students back then who thought I was "invincible".
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: mcv on (07:38:52/02-11-19)
While public transport is probably a great option for most Seattleites, a player yesterday remarked that you probably need a SIN for it. A low rating fake SIN is probably good enough, but if you rely on it too much, it might be easily traceable.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Ixal on (09:24:23/02-11-19)
Public transportation would probably be ok for getting to the meetup/run as long as you are not packing much. After all not only do you need a SIN for it, the police is probably watching public transportation more than other places in the district, even if only because the large number of people means a high quota for people checked they can charge for.

Getting away from a run or dropoff is another matter. As getaway from the run you would rely on your teammates. Even if you are 100% stealthy, public transportation still leaves traces a later investigation can turn up. And many dropoffs are in areas with no or few public transportation options. And even if all goes smooth and both you and Mr. Johnson walk away satisfied, its still a bad idea to wait all alone at a bus stop with a pocket full of credsticks.

And if you live in the barrens there is no public transportation anyway except for some rather costly armored cabs.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on (14:05:48/02-11-19)

I think the way the rules work now is broken, the example from all the way back in SR1 was of a walking shaman moving like a sprinting man IIRC, not moving like a speeding car or jet fighter.

I just don't see a person walking getting past sprinting speed (18MPH?) while running on foot might get up to a fast bicycle speed (30 MPH), so maybe hauling arse on a Bike with spirit gets you up to 60 but as pointed out, your going to hate life if you wipe out.   You'd better be burning another service on Guard to protect your hoop from crashing.

The mechanics of summing worked differently before which limited the force people summoned on the regular a lot more. But, I think the power worked the same mechanically. But then again in 2e a street sam ran at 60 MPH, so it wasn't as stand out.  I'm not sure it always worked on vehicles though I only have 3e within reach and it just said multiplying or dividing the subjects movement rate.  My memory says yes, though I guess technically you could say vehicles have a speed not a movement rate. Assuming the concept of force is a sacred cow that can't be slain, if they come out with a 6e(I think they should the game needs fixes and is bloated beyond belief) if similar mechanics are used standard summoning should be vs forrcex2.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Tarislar on (23:36:06/02-11-19)
Maybe the power shouldn't be a multiplier but instead be additive?

I'm not near my books but if you add its force to your agility or even just to the raw meters/turn total that might work a bit better?
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (07:34:50/02-12-19)
Maybe the power shouldn't be a multiplier but instead be additive?

I'm not near my books but if you add its force to your agility or even just to the raw meters/turn total that might work a bit better?
That would make it much better, yes, and make it less imbalanced for it to be used on a team without a domain.

- Spirits: Multiplier
- People: Addition for Agility-based movement
- Vehicles: ... Too complicated outside domain, perhaps? So only in aspected domain (hello traditions their home areas and free spirits!), and +/- F/4 on Speed if using core vehicle speed rules?_?
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Beta on (10:22:11/02-12-19)
deleted due to glitched memory of the rules.   :P
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Michael Chandra on (13:03:57/02-12-19)
Do recall that currently to use Movement on vehicles, the spirit has to roll against object resistance -- every turn (!).  Which is a high enough resistance roll that eve if you average net hits, there is apt to be a large swings in speed.  Personally I apply that change as a threshold factor on control tests, and call for a crash test when the delta exceeds the vehicles acceleration rating.  (with the unintended consequences of turning it into quite an effective anti-vehicle tool)
The problem with Movement on Vehicles is that it took the SR3 description of Movement, but missed that the rules on how vehicle movement works changed (no accel 35 m/CT, but accel 1 speed level instead). So any kind of houserule needs to completely switch how that's working.

Also, unless I missed some errata, the critter power Movement does NOT face Object Resistance. The rules state [Body/2], not vs OR.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Beta on (13:34:08/02-12-19)
Oops, my apology -- I remembered the high resistance, forgot the source of it.  Killed the original post now.
Title: Re: Transportation for Characters without a vehicle
Post by: Fedifensor on (16:22:14/02-12-19)
A dodge scoot isn't that pricey, it seems a good way to go for the low budget runner.  you can bring it into your low lifestyle apartment. Squatters I usually tell the player to go back to the drawing board.
A Dodge Scoot IS an apartment for someone with a Squatter lifestyle...