Shadowrun

Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Jayde Moon on <10-15-18/1802:13>

Title: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <10-15-18/1802:13>
Carrying on with community feedback for the newest version of the SRM FAQ:

Please post your comments, ideas, kudos, gripes, offers of fealty, etc below!
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: on <10-15-18/2119:04>
Quote from: Overdrive
The default Device Rating is the actual device rating of the specific device being overdriven.

Is this to say that a rating 1 Wired Reflexes is Device Rating 1 or to follow the table on Core page 421 for Device Ratings?
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <10-15-18/2253:41>
Quote from: Overdrive
The default Device Rating is the actual device rating of the specific device being overdriven.

Is this to say that a rating 1 Wired Reflexes is Device Rating 1 or to follow the table on Core page 421 for Device Ratings?

I would imagine specific trumps general.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-27-18/2138:46>
Now that Better than Bad's been published, I have a runner that specializes in a dart pistol who's positively bouncing with anticipation of BtB becoming SRM legal :D
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-27-18/2214:10>
Will we see Guanyin, QUADRIPLEGIC, instinctive hack, Special Modification/Prototype Materials make into missions play?
While there is plenty of cool stuff in BtB, these are the things I'm concerned about, actions before initiative while not a new idea always proves to be very disruptive in my experience.  SM/PM are likely to become standard mods in the hyper specialized world SR as it stand, and is likely result in some pretty Strong weapons. Quadriplegic and Guanyin are likely to be table disruptive.

While i'm much less concerned about Dead Sin, I do want to ask about it, as while I don't see it be very table disruptive I do think it will become very popular very quickly. We all want disads to be meaningful, but this I'm really unsure about.

Lastly New uses for Karma and street cred. Largely i don't have an issue with this, more uses for street cred in fact seem like a good idea, but karma sacrifice for bonus to influence die rolls seems like kinda ugly president to set. I don't want to see newbies ether mistakenly or otherwise talked into this at some table. 
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-27-18/2311:00>
I hear ya.. with specific regards to:

Dead SIN: Since Corp SIN is SRM legal and gives more Karma for it to boot, I don't see why Dead SIN would/should be banned.  (tho I'd certainly support seeing both of them SRM banned on account of being nothing but free karma)

Instinctive Hack: The pre-initiative action cat is already out of the bag.  My only issue with this quality is the pricing... at 2 Karma (or 4 for existing, post-chargen hackers) it's too good to not take.  Jumping up the price tho would be an errata thing, not a SRM thing.

Quadriplegic: Since you can't benefit from cyber/magic to get around the drawback, it seems hard to abuse.  Other than engaging in priority games where you dip attributes lower because you don't have to bother putting any points into physical attribs... haven't thought about how the math works out on 25 karma vs saving attribute points

I'd imagine (daresay even hope) that SM/PM do get kept out of SRM, on the grounds that crafting is generally not done in SRM.

As I mentioned upthread the tech I'm excited for is the Blight toxin.  And as a some-time SRM GM, I'd be happy to have Grey Mana mod available as a potential option for NPC opposition given the unenviable task of trying to deal with a half dozen magical shadowrunners...
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-27-18/2335:00>
Quadriplegic isn't a question of hard to abuse it's a question of hard to play with. It basically means not physically going on the run, as your character Dead man walking (or in the motorized vehicle) in this case.  It can work fine in home game setting, but Missions aren't written for this situation.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-27-18/2350:09>
Well you're pretty much sentenced to play a Decker or Technomancer. (or maybe Rigger, depending on whether the GM lets you use Mental stats in place of Reaction and/or Agility for certain tests whilst in VR)

And you don't HAVE to remain behind as a Quadriplegic... even if you don't Jump Into a drone as your in-battle avatar. (there are silly "Put Armor on the Anthropomorphic Drone" tank builds out there..)  The Transys Steed drone is purpose built for getting such characters around.. plus many other vehicles/drones could be similarly modified.  And at any rate, since you're probably a Decker or Technomancer if you're taking the quadriplegic quality... players of all stripes may be used to/expect you to stay out of physical harm's way during the action scenes anyway.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-28-18/0006:54>
Taking damage when you have a body of zero is next level contra-indicated.

Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-28-18/0008:11>
You're not likely to ever take physical/stun damage except via Biofeedback.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-28-18/1143:03>
I don't agree with that insertion at all. A runner in the field always runs the risk of getting of shot, lightning bolted, blown up, attacked ghouls etc.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-28-18/1155:37>
I don't agree with that insertion at all. A runner in the field always runs the risk of getting of shot, lightning bolted, blown up, attacked ghouls etc.

Sure, but if you're playing a Decker or Technomancer and using stereotypical (the hacker never "goes in") tactics, there's a difference between the plausible risk and the technical risk of suffering a non-matrix based assault.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-28-18/2028:16>
But that's the problem SSDR, Missions doesn't usually play nice with the I'll stay in the Van method of SR.
Thus my concern about it in missions play, you  really don't want some newb sitting down at con building the wheel chair wonder and getting popped 45 mins into a run b/c some stupid ganger who just scored a couple successes.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: prophet42 on <11-29-18/1501:49>
Also, so far as Missions go, how does this work for the Meet-n-Greet with Tanaka-san?

Will the chair-bound runner get factored in on the pay-off if they're not actually present?
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-29-18/1504:39>
Also, so far as Missions go, how does this work for the Meet-n-Greet with Tanaka-san?

Will the chair-bound runner get factored in on the pay-off if they're not actually present?

For Neo-Tokyo, you go to the meet with Tanaka-San. The only allowable exception is if the player is late to the table.

It's not that hard to fit a wheelchair-bound PC into a meet. Even less hard for a Matrix Persona being present in AR.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <11-29-18/1731:40>
This is a good discussion, I appreciate you guys trying to get ahead of it.  We're reviewing and hopefully get 1.3 out the door sooner than later.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-29-18/1754:08>
You might have to issue a "for SRM purposes" edit to the criteria for what cyberware does and doesn't count as eligible for greyware availability... because After all every bit of cyberware can be descriptively obvious and everything has a wireless component.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-29-18/2042:49>
The meet rarely results in violence so I'm not overly worried about that. The PC can show up in whatever method of transport they have selected. They won't have any penalty to social interaction. Odds are they will have good to amazing mental attributes, and given that they probably won't be packing much in the way of physical skills they should have a decent shot at have at-least basic socials skill and probubly more.  So they should be fine there.

Now in the normal course of a home game GM can split challenges, setup encounters to functions from multiple ends and tailor their runs to meet the fact that your leaving someone "in the van". Further in a home game, the PC made their choice hopefully in full understand of the dangers of that choice, and understands the consequences. So that doesn't bother me, it's not a new concept plenty of folks have made these characters.

But in missions it's newbies that cause me concern. When making a character fast to get started, its easy to look and see on disad that eats all those points. Sounds like a good idea and tries it without understanding the consequences.   That's what I don't want to see. I'm perfectly willing to admit, it's not a huge deal, its just one disadd, among so many, and we have no shortage of easy select disadds, and yes there will always be unfortunate accidents with newbies, they don't understand the game and system so they tend make poor choices. But l'd still prefer to make that poor choice just a little harder to make.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: PingGuy on <11-30-18/1153:28>
Even less hard for a Matrix Persona being present in AR.

Do persona's show up in AR?  Like if I'm walking down the street seeing AR tags everywhere, do I see personas flying by also?
Title: Re: Does a matrix user in the AR user mode have a Persona?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-30-18/1348:05>
Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: see the Neo-Tokyo Visitor's Bureau fluff info on pg 232 of SR5 for info on how it CAN work.  It's basically up to GM whim as to whenever and wherever such AR "ghosting" is possible, but any legit business venue (clubs and restaurants) are easy sells for accepting virtual guests.  And that's where meets with Tanaka-sans usually happen.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/1419:52>
In general no. There are variety of exceptions.
 
Persona's are created when someone goes full VR. So in generally they are located in the matrix, which can cross over into AR particularly in certain restaurants and clubs. There are other exceptions. But normal matrix activity is not general visible to AR.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Kiirnodel on <11-30-18/1448:50>
Aren't Personas made whenever you actively use a Matrix device? Like: you turn on your commlink to use it, therefore you have formed your Persona on that device. I don't think anything about the descriptions of Personas restricts it to VR only...

Your Persona is just your Matrix Avatar, you have one regardless of if you are VR or AR, it's just controlled more directly when you are fully VR.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/1810:23>
Aren't Personas made whenever you actively use a Matrix device? Like: you turn on your commlink to use it, therefore you have formed your Persona on that device. I don't think anything about the descriptions of Personas restricts it to VR only...

Your Persona is just your Matrix Avatar, you have one regardless of if you are VR or AR, it's just controlled more directly when you are fully VR.

That was not my reading of the rules. AR I don't think enable your persona. Otherwise if a commlink is active your persona is active, and that doesn't fit fluff or game descriptions.  Further If your AR hacking you don't hit the persona of someone else in AR you hit their PAN. So unless you have something direct from the rules that says otherwise, as far as I know you only have a persona when you "Jump in".
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/1856:53>
So SSRD, does you persona specialization on Cyber Combat count when attack someone in AR?
 
I don't agree that AR is in the matrix, it's meat world primary it's simple augmented by the matrix technologies.

We don't start runs with Persona descriptions we start runs with Character descriptions. That's consistent across the game unless someone is only there via the matrix. Only then do we get a Persona description.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: AJCarrington on <11-30-18/2019:29>
I've split off the AR topic to the Rules sub-forum for those interested.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/2024:46>
Cold sim VR is still going into VR there for creating a persona as I understand it. Which is not the same as AR.

As to the first, right off hand I don't agree. My memory of RAW pretty clear says, your character is ether at the table or the character doesn't count, I'll double check the FAQ and see if I not recalling it correctly. If that needs to be a different conversation, then we can carry on that discussion here and continue AR vs VR and how they relate to persona in another thread.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/2044:05>
It doesn't say it has a persona ether.
Just b/c it's user mode doesn't mean your in the matrix. You don't use matrix initiative in AR, and sure you can access the matrix.   
My cellphone plays podcasts and audiobook just fine, I can even get texts and phones call without access to the internet.
Your com-link still works as the center of your PAN even when it cannot access the matrix for whatever reason, as does your wireless bonuses.

Above all else it still doesn't change the fact, that no official run mission, or cannon begin wit describes a persona over characters unless the character isn't present. So saying otherwise means we have apparently been doing this wrong sense 4th edition.

Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/2155:33>
I don't see how you possibly imagine you are in the matrix?
You don't run matrix Initiative, you run physical real world initiative, b/c your IN the physical real world. You're not in VR, you didn't jump into one of the networks. Your not subject to the risks of Matrix feedback damage.   

As to the Icon question
The icon can simple be the device icon of you comlink, along with all the device icons that make up your pan. Which works with every example of AR hacking given that I have read.

I think it's pretty massive over sight to say across two whole editions, we always intended you to be in AR but we never actually gave any character description that included a persona that was there in the flesh. That makes no sense what so ever. We do generally get description of what they are wearing, which presumably covers their under ware.


Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-30-18/2300:52>
Ok I think I'm on the same page with the mods' restructuring of the threads.  No more talk from me about Personas and AR in this thread from here out :)
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <11-30-18/2316:21>
dang it wrong thread.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <12-01-18/0953:33>
You might have to issue a "for SRM purposes" edit to the criteria for what cyberware does and doesn't count as eligible for greyware availability... because After all every bit of cyberware can be descriptively obvious and everything has a wireless component.

To add to this, you'll want to explicitly state it's available at char gen if you actually want it to be used.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: prophet42 on <12-02-18/0928:37>
Also, so far as Missions go, how does this work for the Meet-n-Greet with Tanaka-san?

Will the chair-bound runner get factored in on the pay-off if they're not actually present?

For Neo-Tokyo, you go to the meet with Tanaka-San. The only allowable exception is if the player is late to the table.

It's not that hard to fit a wheelchair-bound PC into a meet. Even less hard for a Matrix Persona being present in AR.

So long as the runner's actually there at the meet, I don't see it being an issue.

Was commenting more on those folks who never want to send their meat-sack outside of their room/car/etc.
  (though I get that an AR meet-n-greet means that's hardly an issue).
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <12-14-18/1412:28>
Something that's been bugging me (for like a year now, so way before Neo-Tokyo) is the ability for min-maxed PCs to summon high force spirits that trivialize the opposition/difficulty level written for an assumption of "reasonable" PC power levels. And not just as a some-time GM; as a player it kinda sucks to have your character's specialty  be outshone by the Mystic Adept Jack-of-All-Trades-And-Master-of-Them-All-Just-Because-I-Can-Summon-A-Spirit-That-Does-Your-Niche-Better-Than-You-Do.  (That's a LARGE part of why I played a Decker in Chicago; it's the one thing high force spirits don't do better than a PC)

I saw before that support was expressed for the idea of spirits potentially spending edge to oppose the summoning roll.  I've been playing that way for a while now (if you edge the summoning roll, the spirit edges the resistance roll) but all it's done is generate slightly tougher soak rolls; players still aren't summoning anything lower than F9. In looking for ways to de-incentivize high force spirits (without that way inadvertently doing the opposite), I was thinking what about having anything above F6 pre-edge the opposed portion of a conjuring test? I'm pretty sure players would HATE that, though, and rightly see it as just being a way to kick their effectiveness down.

The Magic Surveillance portion of section 4 of the FAQ was kind of eye-opening; I never really scrutinized it before. It gives the GM two 'loopholes' that are in effect all-inclusive with regards to blessing some punishment being meted out on magic.  1) Any magic at all "at the GM's discretion" and 2) that punishment can be in effect anything, with but one example being the opposed Edge vs Force test to see if the Cops astrally spy on your shenanigans.

It seems to me that having F9 spirits (yes, plural) each sustaining multiple Force 6+ attribute buffs seems like the exact sort of thing that should be attracting all the wrong kinds of attention while in Neo-Tokyo. Basically, I don't think I need to punish summoning spirits of a force I arbitrarily deem "too high level for a standard of reasonableness" because there are unlimited tools available for punishing use of said spirits.  Hell, the standard "ok summoning before we go to the meet with Tanaka-san so the spirits can boost our attributes" tradition could easily be ended if NTMP follows them to the meet and arresting everyone present for conspiracy to commit shadowrunning.  It's not a home game so the NPCs will always still be willing to meet and offer jobs to runners who can't keep from attracting NTMP to the meets, but the ever-building notoriety and public awareness is still a thing in SRM.

All that rambling said, I'm curious about my SRM play experience due to the small pond sample size.  Are multiple high force spirits the norm at other people's tables, or is my group something of an outlier in their reliance on using them?

Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <12-15-18/0214:09>
I disagree with countering Edge with Edge, and think any kind of oversummoning should simply face Edge. It's how I also ran it in my home game, unless they had a really good excuse to convince the spirit. (Such as a handcrafted dram of Orichalcum...)
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Lormyr on <12-15-18/0630:05>
Strictly for game balance purposes, I believe that one should not be able to summon a spirit with greater force than their magic rating.

But that rules bit aside? Our locals oversummon all the time. Some of our older characters with titanic drain resistance pools frequently summon spirits of Force 15+.

As a GM, I never experienced nor understood the trivializing my baddies frustration. As long as my players are having fun, get on with your bad selves and steamroll those baddies!

If a player's actions are causing other players to have diminished fun though, that is a concern. One that I have often found is easily resolved with a polite request to rein it in so that the rest of the table to participate too.

One thing to keep in mind with the Neo-Tokyo Magic Surveillance portion of the FAQ is that those activities usually garner attention - not automatic punishment. So your mage has a Force 9 spirit strolling around with him, sustaining multiple spells? Is that unusual enough to warrant a patrol stopping by? Sure. But if that mage passes his SIN check, and has a license for summoning and those magic types? He's free to go unless entering some kind of restricted area.

It is a very fine line between punishing players for intelligently using their character's resources (not cool), and punishing characters for not bothering with licenses, being sloppy, causing collateral damage, and/or openly flaunting the law such as carrying firearms (totally cool).
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Michael Chandra on <12-15-18/1931:09>
But that rules bit aside? Our locals oversummon all the time. Some of our older characters with titanic drain resistance pools frequently summon spirits of Force 15+.
Sounds like a good reason to make oversummoning always trigger Edge as base Missions rule. Because under Edge, a Force 8 spirit already produces almost as much drain as a F15 without. A Force 10 edging would be producing an average of 12 drain vs 10 of the F15. If players can just tune out F15 without thinking, obviously it's creating a discrepancy between groups and everything.

(MATH: Run the following on anydice to compare:
Code: [Select]
W: {
0: 2592,
1: 1080,
2: 180,
3: 30,
4: 5,
5: 1}

output 12dW*2
output 15d{0,0,2}
)
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Jayde Moon on <12-15-18/2020:54>
We're not really interested in putting an additional arbitrary cap on spirit summoning.  This is not a problem everywhere and where it is, GMs need to work with the players to mitigate potential issues.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Marcus on <12-16-18/1953:34>
Edging summoning is perfectly valid. If your players are trivializing, content by high force, ether raise the difficulty or lower spirit services with pre and post edge or both.  The mods have the flexibility for a reason use it.
 
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-18-19/1702:05>
New order of business:

On the topic of spell preparations (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28815.msg510738#msg510738) SRM came up.

Binding spirits has an exception to the "you must buy hits" rule due in part to the bad odds of having to resist twice the force. 

Making alchemical preparations has the same issue.  And with a Vault of Ages (legal for SRM play per the FA section of the SRM FAQ) they have potentially indefinite shelf lives, which renders the process relevant as a downtime activity.

So, should making preparations get a pass on the requirement to buy hits during downtime, as binding spirits does?
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Hobbes on <01-18-19/2141:29>
Solid question. 

Possible counter argument, Alchemy preps are easy to make during a run so if you want to roll dice you can. 

And if you're going to roll dice for Alchemy preps during down time.... 8 hours a day, 7 days...3360 Force worth of attempts.  560 Force 6 attempts where you pick and choose the best.  Total jerk move that any GM would stop of course.  But, you've got a week, what else you gonna do.

And really, anyway, if you've got an hour before the meet you can probably fill up your vault...
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-18-19/2202:47>
Yeah I was mistaken when I made the post here... Alchemy rolls against F not F x 2. So it's not in the same discussion with Binding Spirits, really.

Might be wisest after all, even with a Vault, to require bought hits during downtime.
Title: Re: SRM Combined FAQ 1.2 Discussion
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <01-28-19/1523:28>
V1.3 is available at the SRM Missions Facebook page.