Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Shadowjack on <07-22-18/1018:42>

Title: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-22-18/1018:42>
Rumors are circulating that 6th edition is in development. I really think the community should be involved to an extent in the design process, find out what people like and dislike. I went back to 4E because I felt that skill caps being raised to 12 was a huge mistake, the new matrix stuff (aside from the return of cyberdecks) was mostly bad, large increases in gear costs, limits and accuracy were bad ideas, poorly written rules for matrix, magic, and vehicles, etc. Anarchy was a lot of fun for a while but poorly written rules ruined it for me and I came to miss the more interesting character creation of 4E.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Xenon on <07-22-18/1054:53>
There are also rumors circulating that the 30th anniversary core rule book for SR5 is scheduled for next year....


But rumors are rumors. Shrug.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Kiirnodel on <07-22-18/1101:52>
So-called rumors of a new edition are by-and-large just people venting about how they don't like the current edition.

Personally, I'm really tired of it, because it just feels like so much negativity.


There has been no official mention of anything involving a new edition. Nothing. There are already threads out there discussing what to do for a new ruleset, and there are already threads about what is going to be new in 2019.

I don't see any new value here.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-22-18/1111:40>
Regardless, I doubt they will announce 6E while still creating 5E products. However, I do believe it is not something the community should ignore because 5E does have a lot of problems and many of us are not happy. My concern is that all of a sudden 6E will be announced and will have been in development for some time, at that point it may be too late for customers to help shape the product and it could be a bad edition. Right now I am playing 4E and having a good time but I have purchased many 5E products and overall have had a bad experience, I would be very disappointed if 6E just pops up and turns out to be far from my preferences.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-22-18/1142:03>
Honestly, I agree that the rumors of 6E are mostly people who have tried 5e and found it spectacularly wanting. Part of the clamor is because there are enough areas of the game with enough structural problems (read: Matrix) that it is simply impossible to imagine how they could fix things without major revisions or, in some cases (read: TMs), a complete ground-up rewrite. Combined with the... anemic modification rules for vehicles, drones, and weapons, a return of the priority system, and a failure to follow through on their own hype (remember the 'Year of Shadowrun'?), this has left a lot of people disaffected with the current edition. The CFD 'crisis', which was built up so much leading into 5E has turned out to be thoroughly 'meh', and the Lockdown relied too much on the computer games which never caught on, and we were left with... well, a bunch of nothing for long enough that the only reason people were talking about it is because it screwed up traffic on the eastern seaboard, until very recently, when it was almost an aside with the corporate court looking at NeoNET and the Audit. Even a shakeup in the corporate court and the megacorporate landscape was given a ho-hum treatment. It is basically like Shadowrun has been running on neutral for the last few years.

There just isn't the same energy in the lore in 5e as there was in 4e, and the structural problems 5e has are much more pronounced over those 4e had. At this point I think what is needed is either an overhaul, like D&D 3.0 to 3.5, or a completely new edition, like D&D 4th to D&D 5th.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <07-22-18/1155:52>
Of course everyone here paying attention to the issues with 5th. Gamers are always unhappy. I know I am one. The community is always restless, there no reason to get overly worried about it. 5th is gonna be with us for good while to come. Things have gotten better and are continuing too improve the errata team is back up and running again, a Special thanks to Firebug for that. The TM issues about to be address next month, if you hear some talk this nonsense tell them to chill. There will always be system issues and that fine, things are progressing very nicely. Power creep is being address in logical and useful ways. Street Lethal is a great example. Sure the book isn't perfect there decent number of errors, but it's doing a good job keeping the power creep diverse enough.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: on <07-22-18/1432:39>
like D&D 4th
Bleh. You dare speak of it >.<
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-22-18/1546:14>
Of course everyone here paying attention to the issues with 5th. Gamers are always unhappy. I know I am one. The community is always restless, there no reason to get overly worried about it. 5th is gonna be with us for good while to come. Things have gotten better and are continuing too improve the errata team is back up and running again, a Special thanks to Firebug for that. The TM issues about to be address next month, if you hear some talk this nonsense tell them to chill. There will always be system issues and that fine, things are progressing very nicely. Power creep is being address in logical and useful ways. Street Lethal is a great example. Sure the book isn't perfect there decent number of errors, but it's doing a good job keeping the power creep diverse enough.
We HOPE the TM issues will be addressed next month. It was going to be a book, then it got delayed, then restarted, then rolled into a chapter of a second Matrix book. I'm not confident the they will get the ground up structural rewrite they desperately need in a single chapter, especially if it is going to be in the current style of writing, with mixing the fluff and rules sections.

'Things have gotten better' is like saying, "Well, the dragon stopped breathing fire on us." "But now he's casting a spell." "Yes, but we're not on fire, so things have gotten better."

Firebug and team have done heroic work, and should be applauded, but there were so many areas where that work was made necessary because of needless and reckless changes between editions that were clearly not looked at before publication (the stuff with vehicles and a Spirit with the Movement power, for instance, getting a motorcycle up to Mach 1 or some such craziness, because they changed the Speed and Accel ratings from actual numbers to a scale and copy/pasted the Movement power from 4th).

If we get a 5.5, that actually fixes the structural problems inherent in the system as it stands, then I'd be satisfied. But 'power creep' isn't the issue when a third of the game (matrix) is utterly FUBAR, and drek is splashing on everything else because of it. You're talking about Power Creep while we're knee deep in drek and the tide is rising.

like D&D 4th
Bleh. You dare speak of it >.<
If the shoe fits...

Just be glad I didn't invoke F.A.T.A.L.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <07-22-18/1615:18>
Get over it Mirikon, your doom and gloom is well known on the board, If you like talking about FATAL then go play that horrible abomination.
We have made progress, we will continue to make progress. 

For both of you 4th ed was damn good game. It's b/c whine ass gamers couldn't imagine  a D&D where wizards were actually balanced with the other classes, and where a game finally stepped up and learned some lessons from MMOs instead of just the other way around. They couldn't look passed the rules and see how it was intended to be play. It's a huge tragedy the community just managed to let 3.5 go. No D&D was ever as easy to run, as 4th and no game ever scaled as well, and that includes 5th. Which I do admit is good game.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-22-18/1619:22>
The CRB was not tested enough, quite clearly. Technomancers being completely messed up is unacceptable and I don't believe that requiring customers to buy a "fix" years later is a good thing. In SR5 I played mostly street samurais because I felt that most other major archetypes were a headache. Hacking is screwed up on an extreme level that reflects very poorly on the company. Marks, OS, GOD, dozens upon dozens of dice formulas, that's just what I recall off the top of my head, I have not played it in some time.

There was absolutely no reason to increase skill caps to 12/13, that is pure insanity. You start with a maximum of 6 in a skill (pre aptitude) and advancing to rank 12 during play is very expensive and quite frankly, not realistic for the majority of players, runners, and groups, especially when you have many other things to sink your karma into. Bringing back the priority system was a huge mistake. Alchemy is almost pointless, reagents did not enhance the game, magic rules outside of the basics are poorly designed. I could go on, the book was a disaster.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-22-18/1634:41>
I'd rather get errata out and go on for half a decade than deal with the fandom wank that pretends SR5 didn't give a decent shot at solving problems in 4e. A bunch of judgement calls and houserules helped solve areas I was unsatisfied with, and the speed is much better. In SR4 I would never have dared play out a dual-layer combat with fifty participants for a season finale, or butcher their way through an entire Humanis Compound. And I much prefer the SR5 matrix despite them screwing up TMs. Way easier to run with.

Anyway, as mentioned in another topic, it's doubtable they will go for SR6 while NT SRM still runs. I do expect playtesting to start in a few years and I hope that they get at least twice as many playtesters involved as with Anarchy, with a time span of two years.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Jack_Spade on <07-22-18/1845:11>
All in all, 5e is an improvement to previous editions in regard to the elegance of the mechanics and playability. The game is mainly lacking where diligence and attention to detail is concerned. Good ideas are often implemented only half-assed or without someone editing them who actually has read all the other rules texts that came before. And I see no reason why a new edition would change that. If anything it would make things worse.



Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <07-22-18/2136:25>
Well, I'm okay with 5e. I'd like an anniversary edition, because there's always room for mechanical cleanup, but overall, I like most of the edition. I even enjoy the story a lot, Dark Terrors and Forbidden Arcana kept me on edge.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-22-18/2213:37>
Rumors are circulating that 6th edition is in development.
They are wrong.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <07-23-18/1012:30>
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.  But I would imagine that the issue for game companies is that core rules and core supplements are apt to be their best sellers (but also probably have the highest production costs).  As in, probably a much higher pick-up rate on Run and Gun than on Street Lethal, on Street Grimoire than on Forbidden Arcana, etc.  I don't know what the net revenue over time chart looks like, but I'm assuming that at some point it starts tailing off, as the rules begin to feel stale, the new supplements seem pretty niche, etc.  No idea what the sweet spot for a refresh on the rules is, but I'm sure it is something that they have to keep in mind.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-23-18/2027:16>
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.  But I would imagine that the issue for game companies is that core rules and core supplements are apt to be their best sellers (but also probably have the highest production costs).  As in, probably a much higher pick-up rate on Run and Gun than on Street Lethal, on Street Grimoire than on Forbidden Arcana, etc.  I don't know what the net revenue over time chart looks like, but I'm assuming that at some point it starts tailing off, as the rules begin to feel stale, the new supplements seem pretty niche, etc.  No idea what the sweet spot for a refresh on the rules is, but I'm sure it is something that they have to keep in mind.

There are a lot of things I can tolerate but the skill cap being set to 12 is not one of them, that really bothers me. In SR5 I find myself avoiding things that make my dice pool too large, I prefer physical dice and don't want to be holding so many in my hand. It's a mess when the dice hit the table and even though I have very large hands it's still a struggle to grab all the dice. This is one of the many things that makes me believe that SR5 was not playtested properly.

Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <07-23-18/2059:52>
On the dice issue, have you tried the 3.5mm dice?

I got a brick of 36 dice from my gaming store for $9.99cdn. All 36 dice fit in a single hand, can be 'rolled' with 2 hands easily....

If you buy the black ones and buy a black marker, you can fill in the pips of 2 throu 4 for easy counting after a roll as well...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <07-24-18/1005:31>

Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.

That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-24-18/1055:00>
I wouldn't do too many improvements since that's a big debate, but yeah, definitely clear things up for an anniversary errata'd edition.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Finstersang on <07-24-18/1146:06>
I wouldn't do too many improvements since that's a big debate, but yeah, definitely clear things up for an anniversary errata'd edition.

Iīd say go for broke with improvements and balancing, as long as you can keep (or enhance) consistency with the other Sourcebooks. Itīs a debate for good reasons.  ;D

Luckily, besides limits and other core mechanics, the most contested things can be fixed as isolated issues. Take Spirits: Some tweaks to the summoning process, some tweaks to Powers (Elemental Attack/Aura, Engulf and Movement come to mind), and everythingīs a lot smoother at this end.

Or Alchemy: Make the Preparation Test an unopposed test (or double the Net Hits when determining the potency) and maybe add more benefits for using reagents.

Sometimes you can combine measures: F.i., you can apply a light nerf to the hardened armor rules (since Milspecc and Spirit Armor are extremely strong and too hard to counter right now), but then also apply hardened armor to drones (which are too squishy).

All of these are small, but impactfull changes that donīt cause consistency issues.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-24-18/1201:47>
On the dice issue, have you tried the 3.5mm dice?

I got a brick of 36 dice from my gaming store for $9.99cdn. All 36 dice fit in a single hand, can be 'rolled' with 2 hands easily....

If you buy the black ones and buy a black marker, you can fill in the pips of 2 throu 4 for easy counting after a roll as well...

Yes, I have a set. I didn't use a marker on them but I would if I go back to using them. I shelled out quite a bit of cash for the fancy shadowrun dice by Q-Workshop. They aren't the best but I like them and that's what I use these days. I admit that the small dice are more practical though.


Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.

That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.

You make some solid point but I don't think it's fair to make a new CRB with errata, sell that for a while, then make a 5.5 and sell that, that's making people buy the same book three times. The Anarchy book has so many problems and that's not my fault, so when the errata comes I need to buy it again if I want to play? Honestly, it's bullshit. I could see this being okay if it was only an occasional thing but all the books are screwed up and it's unacceptable. I just want to put 5E behind me and purchase 6E and have it actually be written properly so I can use it without issues.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Finstersang on <07-24-18/1208:02>
Luckily, besides limits and other core mechanics

Now that I think about it, even the Limit mechanic can be improved on a global scale without consistency issues. I already houseruled it  ;D

Shameless Self-Citation incoming: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25061.msg466962 (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25061.msg466962).
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Hobbes on <07-24-18/1531:38>
All in all, 5e is an improvement to previous editions in regard to the elegance of the mechanics and playability. The game is mainly lacking where diligence and attention to detail is concerned. Good ideas are often implemented only half-assed or without someone editing them who actually has read all the other rules texts that came before. And I see no reason why a new edition would change that. If anything it would make things worse.

+1

Another edition won't help most of the issues I have with the game.  Would it be nice if things like Ownership, SINs, and Personas were fleshed out and mechanically supported rather than some handwaivium and a warning sign "Don't look behind the curtain!"  Sure. 

IMO, 5th edition is still more playable, and better balanced mechanically than previous editions. 

And I like the Priority System.  And Cyberdecks.  And no players actually buy skills up to 12.  PCs rarely increase a skill to 7.  The increase of skill cap is for NPCs so GMs can just say the big bad has 11 Skill and 5 stat so 16 Dice.  It's so a GM doesn't need to dive into ticky-tacky details on the NPCs to keep up with PC Dice pools.  True Story.  I think I've seen two characters increase a skill past 6.

And Alchemy is mechanically really strong with the Forbidden Arcana options now.  If TMs get some decent support they'll be in the "Non-optimal but playable" category as opposed to the current "Well if you really want to, but I have to warn you....." that they're currently in. 

I mean really, Complex Form "Get Marks" and some meat space dice pool (or Initiative) increasing qualities (or gear) that required Resonance.  Done.  Not that we'll see that, but you never know.

Would I like a "New and Improved edition"  Absolutely.  But I don't see that as a likely outcome of 6th edition.  Or even a 5.5 edition.  I suspect it would be more or less what we have now, but with a stack of new books to buy.  (which I would).   

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <07-24-18/1554:55>


That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

And a clear writeup about how frequent Background Count should be and to what level!!!!! Generally, just a clear writeup for BC, geez. 

Quote
There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.

Agree. I like most of how 5e works, it just needs a clear-up, but a serious one for that.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-24-18/1604:18>
BC: As common as the GM desires.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <07-24-18/1633:39>
BC: As common as the GM desires.

Since it's one of the major things that could curb back, or atl least have a huuuuge effect on how strong magic is, no, please. If I'd want those kind of answers for major parts of the rules, I'd play another game. I want to know, how something, that has a major impact on one of the core aspects of the game, works and I want to know it in precise terms.

Also, it just seems that the developers/writers didn't commincate, since the BC in the missions is much more mild than in SG. Those are the things a 5.5 could help with.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <07-24-18/1704:22>
BC is a great idea. It makes sense to the setting. The mechanical effect to BC is too dramatic. No one wants constant up miscellaneous die penalties going from 1 to 24. It's needs to be normalized or add mechanics that allow for negating it. Sure we have noise in tech, but lets be real, how much noise reduction tech can you pile? Loads and loads.

I think there is a very good chance they can make the next anniversary edition what everyone would like to see, including the fully revised alchemy rules, and I pray some decent TM rules. But as was said I would really, really like to the matrix patched. Persona are a great idea, but they need to clarified, their relationship with icon addressed how TM interact with address, and the network rules also re-touched for simplification. I like decks, I like bricking, i like wireless bonuses, but lets take it further and integrate the whole thing.

I look at books like D&D 5th DMG, and that book is pretty seamless, you could literally open the adventure/dungeon generation section, roll on tables and create a fully functional adventure without ever having to do anything else (Take a look at https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/random/ for some of those table in automated fashion). It should be totally be possible to create a similar solution for SR. There is start to that in core but it really needs to be flushed out and expanded.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-24-18/1707:50>
BC: As common as the GM desires.

Since it's one of the major things that could curb back, or atl least have a huuuuge effect on how strong magic is, no, please. If I'd want those kind of answers for major parts of the rules, I'd play another game. I want to know, how something, that has a major impact on one of the core aspects of the game, works and I want to know it in precise terms.

Also, it just seems that the developers/writers didn't commincate, since the BC in the missions is much more mild than in SG. Those are the things a 5.5 could help with.
Then you should have a decent conversation with your gm.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Jack_Spade on <07-24-18/1724:48>
Funny thing: Written rules help GMs - especially new GMs - master the game in a way that makes them more consistent and fun to play. Not everyone is buying these books just for the flavor of the shadow talk and the world building. Buying a rulebook should - and I hope this is not a too outlandish concept - actually provide you with rules that help you create a fun and fair experience for everyone involved.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <07-24-18/1804:00>
Funny thing: Written rules help GMs - especially new GMs - master the game in a way that makes them more consistent and fun to play. Not everyone is buying these books just for the flavor of the shadow talk and the world building. Buying a rulebook should - and I hope this is not a too outlandish concept - actually provide you with rules that help you create a fun and fair experience for everyone involved.

And they should also help set some common expectations (for players, GMs, writers of Missions and other adventures, etc).  Groups may choose to vary, but ideally they know "this is standard, this is what we are doing" rather than having to draft their own constitution from scratch.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <07-24-18/1841:35>
When 5E came out my first impression was that it was the best edition to date. There were some things that seemed strange but I was excited and paid them no attention. What ended up happening was my brother and I, the two GM's of our group, dove into the rules and started making campaigns, none of which got finished. This was perplexing to us and at the time we perceived it as a shift in interests, perhaps we just didn't have the motivation to GM anymore.

We later bought 5E D&D and the exact same thing happened, we had a great first impression and started making campaigns. The difference was that these campaigns, at first, lasted much longer than our SR 5E campaigns, but none of them were completed either. Eventually, I became so discouraged with D&D 5E that I could not make it past one session without quitting, there were just too many things that bothered me about the system.

We were very confused and again perceived this as us not enjoying GMing anymore, and we left at that and stopped playing. After checking out many systems many months later we found Fate Core. I went through my usual routine of a great first impression but when we got to the part of character creation where we had to create stunts we decided that we did not want to try the game, and we never did. At this point we were even more confused and felt deprived from our favorite hobby. My brother said "Let's play Shadowrun 4E" and I asked him why, he said "That's where we had our best campaigns and the motivation to GM." and then I realized that he was right, none of our awesome campaigns took place in 5E. We switched to 4E and immediately all our problems vanished, we were having a great time, we had the motivation back, everything was great, and still is.

However, I do care about 6E, I don't want to play only 4E forever. I believe this game can evolve, but I am worried that it will actually devolve instead. I just hope that when the time comes, CGL will reach out to the passionate fans of Shadowrun and work with us to make 6E the best it can be. I am very worried they will just announce it, sell it, and it will be crap, and that means I'll be playing 4E for 10 years or so. Anyway, this is just how things have been for my group and I.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-25-18/1225:59>
Gm: "Look guys, if you walk around the city with F1 Sustaining Foci, you might walk into a BC and kill the spells."
Player: "No, the book says X so we will just avoid that!"
Not all should be explicitly written out without leeway.

Anyway, no SR6, let's hope for an errata'd edition. =)
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-25-18/1340:01>
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.

The biggest problem with this sentiment, is that with all the work that has to go in to clean up smaller issues, and re-balancing, they might as well spend all that energy on a new edition.

It is much more efficient.

The sheer amount of poorly implemented rules is staggering if you start listing them.  Noise, Background Count, Device Rating, PANs, Deckers, Riggers, Technomancers....  And I'm only scratching the surface.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-25-18/2335:38>
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.

The biggest problem with this sentiment, is that with all the work that has to go in to clean up smaller issues, and re-balancing, they might as well spend all that energy on a new edition.

It is much more efficient.

The sheer amount of poorly implemented rules is staggering if you start listing them.  Noise, Background Count, Device Rating, PANs, Deckers, Riggers, Technomancers....  And I'm only scratching the surface.
Indeed. The fact that 5e has been out for this long and 1/3 of the game (the Matrix) is still completely screwed up, even after the Matrix book came out is telling.

They might still unfrag things, but 5 years is a good run for an edition of a tabletop RPG. If they started today, it'd be 6 or even 7 by the time the new edition came out. That's on par with every other edition of Shadowrun save 1e, which only lasted 3 years (1989-1992). 2e was '92-'98 (6 years), 3e was '98-'05 (7 years), 4e was '05-'13 (with 20a in the middle, for a total of 8 years). It is not unreasonable to be seeking a new edition when this one has lasted as long as it has in such an imperfect form.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <07-26-18/0200:01>
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.

The biggest problem with this sentiment, is that with all the work that has to go in to clean up smaller issues, and re-balancing, they might as well spend all that energy on a new edition.

It is much more efficient.

The sheer amount of poorly implemented rules is staggering if you start listing them.  Noise, Background Count, Device Rating, PANs, Deckers, Riggers, Technomancers....  And I'm only scratching the surface.
Indeed. The fact that 5e has been out for this long and 1/3 of the game (the Matrix) is still completely screwed up, even after the Matrix book came out is telling.

They might still unfrag things, but 5 years is a good run for an edition of a tabletop RPG. If they started today, it'd be 6 or even 7 by the time the new edition came out. That's on par with every other edition of Shadowrun save 1e, which only lasted 3 years (1989-1992). 2e was '92-'98 (6 years), 3e was '98-'05 (7 years), 4e was '05-'13 (with 20a in the middle, for a total of 8 years). It is not unreasonable to be seeking a new edition when this one has lasted as long as it has in such an imperfect form.

yea but the change from 1 to 2 was so small, that the books where inter changeable if you knew what to look for. The biggest was the removal of floating stage limits on weapons.
So if the entry in 1E said : Heavy pistol. Damage 9m(3). In 2e you read that as Heavy Pistol Damage 9m.

And they changed how you calculated your dice pools, in the player's favor...

so really, 1e to 3e or 9 years. 
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-26-18/1407:48>
Point being, the 6 or 7 that 5E would be when 6E came out if they started working on it today would still be par for the course. So it is completely reasonable to start speaking of things we'd wish to see in 6E.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <07-26-18/1438:12>
Usually, an edition change happens after all the sourcebooks come out....
Usually within 6 months of the Rigger book. (How zi used to time edition changes!).
They broke the mold with 5e... so maybe look for an edition change announcment when the Techno book comes out...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-28-18/1348:22>
Usually, an edition change happens after all the sourcebooks come out....
Usually within 6 months of the Rigger book. (How zi used to time edition changes!).
They broke the mold with 5e... so maybe look for an edition change announcment when the Techno book comes out...
Cue announcement that Kill Code will be at Gencon...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: HP15BS on <08-03-18/1139:01>
Yeah, the noise and bgc rules in particular are really annoying, and I'd be content doing away with them entirely.

In fact, I recommend it -- Noise doesn't even make sense!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <08-03-18/1347:10>
Yeah, the noise and bgc rules in particular are really annoying, and I'd be content doing away with them entirely.

In fact, I recommend it -- Noise doesn't even make sense!
Indeed. Signal strength made sense, and was a good limiting factor. Spam zones and other things imposing penalties made sense. Just generic 'Noise' is... yeah.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: wraith on <08-14-18/1043:38>
I'll be honest, I'm hoping that 6e will be under a different rightsholder.

CGL may be trying, but the glacial pace of releases and continual issues in editing, rules design, and continuity do not seem to be improving.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <08-14-18/1102:43>
Wait, glacial rate of releases?  How many releases do you expect in a year?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <08-14-18/1116:57>
I can't speak for @wraith, but I'm still waiting for a Core book errata after 3 years.*  I'm (technically) still waiting for the Technomancer special material that is so desperately needed, also after 3 years.

*Not that I want the Core errata so much, but because I'm waiting for the Rigger 5 errata that is needed terribly.

If that isn't a glacial release schedule, I want a little of what your havin'.  :P
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <08-14-18/1247:27>
I can't speak for @wraith, but I'm still waiting for a Core book errata after 3 years.*  I'm (technically) still waiting for the Technomancer special material that is so desperately needed, also after 3 years.

*Not that I want the Core errata so much, but because I'm waiting for the Rigger 5 errata that is needed terribly.

If that isn't a glacial release schedule, I want a little of what your havin'.  :P

I would call that more an issue of release quality (both in terms of "the content that people want" and "well planned, written, and edited, and any errata addressed quickly")

In terms of quantity, not counting missions, stories, non-SR-rules products, or tarot decks, we've recently had:
2018
-so far:
   -  two rules supplements:  Street Lethal, and in limited quantities Kill Code
   - one setting supplement: Shadows in Focus: Morocco
   - one adventure:Toxic Alleys
- likely
   - Better than bad, a city book for Morocco, possibly something else by the end of year?

2017:
   - Three rule (ish) supplements: Forbidden Arcana, The Complete Trog, Dark Terrors
   - One setting supplement:  Book of the Lost
   - one adventure Ripping Reality

2016:
   - Two rules supplements: Cutting Aces,  Howling Shadows, 
   - Five setting supplements: Shadows in Focus: Metropole, Court of Shadows, Seattle Boxed Set, Shadows in Focus: San Francisco, Market Panic
   - Two adventures: False Flag, Serrated Edge

Definitely slowed down from 2016, but on the order of a couple of rules supplements, a couple of setting supplements, and an adventure or two (plus missions, novels, Anarchy, etc) doesn't seem all that glacial to me.  I guess our expectations may differ on how frequently material should come out.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <08-14-18/1308:06>
I would call that more an issue of release quality (both in terms of "the content that people want" and "well planned, written, and edited, and any errata addressed quickly")

That is a very fair point.

I admit I tend to block out content I don't find useful (clarification note:  I'm not declaring it as not useful, I'm talking about to me).

As just a small sample, I can hardly call Street Lethal a rules supplement because all I remember of rules in there is the unnecessarily added Mixed Unit Tactics.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-14-18/1412:54>
Wait, glacial rate of releases?  How many releases do you expect in a year?
let expectedRate = hatesSR5AndWantsAnExcuse ? actualRatex2 + 5 : actualRate;
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <08-14-18/1608:25>
Wait, glacial rate of releases?  How many releases do you expect in a year?
let expectedRate = hatesSR5AndWantsAnExcuse ? actualRatex2 + 5 : actualRate;

Some people expect a book every month.

Usually the same people who then turn around and whine when the books "lack content" or have errors (admittedly this issue needs work), or don't cover something they want....




The books have been getting better; there are glaring issues in them, and from what Sphinx has complied over the last few books, mostly editing errors. (Grrr!)
But everything looks better when viewed through rose colored glasses.....

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <08-14-18/2206:12>
Well, considering that the TM stuff really ought to have been in the FIRST matrix book, like Unwired did in 4th...

Honestly, though, they do have a point that this edition has been... mismanaged. Starting with the annoying puzzles to get disjointed previews of Storm front in random order, and the 'Year of Shadowrun' that wasn't, continuing on with the Matrix being utterly fragged up, basic things like changing the Speed of vehicles/drones, and copy/pasting the Movement power, so you have wheeled drones that can practically go mach 1...

Now Catalyst has been getting better, especially since they have people on errata now, but is it any wonder why this edition has soured on a lot of people?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: wraith on <08-15-18/0637:36>
Wait, glacial rate of releases?  How many releases do you expect in a year?

We're 5 years past release of SR5 and don't have all the core books out (pending Kill Code ever actually releasing in a form people not at GenCon can buy), nor errata for most of the products for flaws pointed out at their release years ago.  One actual rulebook release in 2017, IIRC, with Forbidden Arcana (two if we're kind and give Dark Terrors the nod), and assuming they actually get to print this calendar year maybe 2 for 2018 in Street Lethal and Kill Code.

I had to dig for the titles because the Catalyst SR website (https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/upcoming-products/) is so out of date that it still shows Run Faster as an upcoming release... which has been out for three and a half years. The other sections are even more hilarious, still containing text referencing SR20th (https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/e-books/) as the current core book.

But hey, the Sprawl Ops game won at Kickstarter, so I guess that's a thing that might someday get released, unlike the vast majority of the Year of Shadowrun stuff like Sprawl Ganger.

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <08-15-18/1036:45>
Yah, it is better to find the releases by going to drivethrurpg, filtering by publisher and rules system, and sorting by added date.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <08-15-18/1510:30>
Yah, it is better to find the releases by going to drivethrurpg, filtering by publisher and rules system, and sorting by added date.
The website has never been a priority for Catalyst. Them not updating the page has always been a problem, and leads to the feeling among many that SR is the red-headed stepchild compared to Battletech or their other properties.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <08-15-18/2117:03>
Yah, it is better to find the releases by going to drivethrurpg, filtering by publisher and rules system, and sorting by added date.
The website has never been a priority for Catalyst. Them not updating the page has always been a problem, and leads to the feeling among many that SR is the red-headed stepchild compared to Battletech or their other properties.

That would probably be because it is.

If you look at the market for Batteletech, it MUCH bigger. So big it can support a table top game, a free to play online game (Mechwarrior online) as a full "Pay to play" title coming out (Mechwarrior 5), and a turn based based computer game (BattleTech)


That just shows where the money is at, and where it comes from.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: wraith on <08-15-18/2206:46>
Yah, it is better to find the releases by going to drivethrurpg, filtering by publisher and rules system, and sorting by added date.
The website has never been a priority for Catalyst. Them not updating the page has always been a problem, and leads to the feeling among many that SR is the red-headed stepchild compared to Battletech or their other properties.

That would probably be because it is.

If you look at the market for Batteletech, it MUCH bigger. So big it can support a table top game, a free to play online game (Mechwarrior online) as a full "Pay to play" title coming out (Mechwarrior 5), and a turn based based computer game (BattleTech)


That just shows where the money is at, and where it comes from.

I think that's also a matter of who they choose to work with.  The Shadowrun Rrturns games were all commercially successful, but unlikely to convert players to SR tabletop because the tabletop 2070's are little like the games. Stuff like Shadowrun Online stopping development and Sprawl Ganger never going anywhere because the miniatures were vaporware haven't helped.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: bull30548 on <10-20-18/1652:11>
Alright i have read through this thread and I see a number of things that need to be addressed.  Mind you these are not answers to issues this is addressing some misconceptions that start in the wrong place.

First dice pools: Shadowrun has always been a 'dice heavy' game, by which I mean you need a lot of dice, and thus when the conversion from 3rd edition to 4th edition came about the best approach was discussed and decided on.  Please note this was 10 years ago where the internet was still just verging on being a great communication source between fans and industry.  Now if you like we could go back to the way 3rd did it.  You could not have a skill higher than your attribute associated with it.  At character creation it couldn't be higher than half.  However, please note dice pools were determined differently than in 4th/5th editions.  The third edition system addressed both the pools and 'limits'.  The problem in third edition was that Shadowrun has always been a lethal game and low dice pools usually reflected in a quick death just from a bad dice roll or two.  I still LOVE third edition over 5th but I don't have an issue with dice pools.

Second Technomancers: Please lay blame on the company that developed the idea from a half baked scheme, originally FASA, then WizKids, and finally Catalyst.  Yes, read that again because that is the series of Companies that 4th passed to and from as the license went through that roller coaster.  If you dislike the technomancer design then that is fine, I don't disagree that they have never been anything but a headache.  However, how to 'fix' them in my opinion is no easy solution.

Third Matrix in general: Third edition the joke was the Decker would show up an hour before game go through all his matrix stuff just to be at a point in line with the rest of the players.  Then when game actually started the decker was the guy you sent to pick up the food while everyone else played.  When he got back everbody else would eat while the rest of the matrix things were taken care of.  Basically Matrix and RT actions did not line up at all.  Fourth edition attempted to address this by making decks and commlinks so powerful the decker wasn't even necessary anymore.  Fifth edition brought the decker back by just making decks a little less powerful and with limits that it still needed a mind behind it to make it work. 

Fourth The Community and Input:  Go ask AJ or any of the regular Catalyst folks how many folks actually work for Catalyst Game Labs the WHOLE company.  You will probably find it has less than 50 employees (in fact I think it is closer to 20)  that work there full and part time.  The community is already involved in making and developing a lot of the products that come from Catalyst, they also frequent this site.  However, simply stating something is broken or doesn't work will probably result in nothing.  Hateful comments and just yelling at the forum boards will not create change.  If there is an issue, speak up about it, but make the discussions about how to fix the issue, post up possible solutions, playtest said solutions, come with actual results of changing a rule from blank to blank.  These are the ways that community input CAN make change and CAN influence the development of the products.

Finally 6th edition: There have been rumors 6th edition was coming since I picked up my copy of 5th edition CRB at a convention a month and half after release at GenCon happened.  As of now I am unaware of any 6th edition even being mentioned and that Catalyst is very excited and focused on the anniversaries of both Shadowrun and Battletech.  I hope for a 30th anniversary book and hope it is much like the 4th edition 20th where it almost was like 4.25 edition than just regular 4th edition. 

That's my two nuyen do with it what you like.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ragnarok on <10-23-18/1535:50>
Do I believe that a 6th Edition is coming: Yes. 

Will it arrive in 2019: I highly doubt it. 

Is a 6th Edition needed: Yes. 
A 6th Edition that completely rebuilds it to be as seamless as 3rd and 4th Editions were.  Back when SR had a chapter that detailed the past, as well as, recent events; because, after all, some customers don't get every single game product published, so its nice to know what came before (setting-wise).

Also, jump ahead in the timeline to the 2090's, or something more than a 3 year period in time.


Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: HP15BS on <10-23-18/1703:03>
Is a 6th Edition needed: Yes. 
... [It needs] a chapter that details the past, as well as, recent events; because, after all, some customers don't get every single game product published, so its nice to know what came before (setting-wise).

So much Yes.  I tend to skip over the lore in books of this size as I try to wrap my head around all the rules I need to know, but a chapter telling me the basic history that everyone in the setting is assumed to know would have been a great help.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ixal on <11-07-18/1832:05>
In my opinion 6E is certainly in the design stage.
There have been too many mentions of a new matrix system to be a red herring and I can't imagine that the matrix is changed mid-edition. So just look at what the next big metaplot is. If they focus on the NULL then the new matrix and with it the edition change is rather close (about 1 year). If they go for Ares first then it will likely still take a bit of time.

Also I have the gut feeling that the latest round of advanced books are some sort of test bed for the next edition. What they have in common in my opinion is that things have more unique modifiers to differentiate them from other options. Traditions have their own codes of conducts, limitations and advantages instead of just being variations of drain codes and spirit roles and decks have their own unique abilities than just shuffle attributes around.
Also, elementals are back while wild spirits are even more shamanistic themed spirits than the normal ones. They are optional for now, but maybe we will see bigger differences between hermetics and shamans when it comes to summoning in 6E?
Of course I can be wrong and the uniqueness is just because that every sensible stat permutation has already been done and they needed a reason for the new stuff to exist.

But assuming the new advanced books are a preview for 6E what do you think about that? Good? Bad? Too early to tell?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <11-07-18/1842:32>
Too early to tell.

I'd say that even discussing 6E in concrete ways, as opposed to whether or not one will hypothetically (soon) exist, is certainly too early.  Has CGL confirmed a 6E is even in the works?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-07-18/1854:08>
In my opinion 6E is certainly in the design stage.
There have been too many mentions of a new matrix system to be a red herring and I can't imagine that the matrix is changed mid-edition. So just look at what the next big metaplot is. If they focus on the NULL then the new matrix and with it the edition change is rather close (about 1 year). If they go for Ares first then it will likely still take a bit of time.

Also I have the gut feeling that the latest round of advanced books are some sort of test bed for the next edition. What they have in common in my opinion is that things have more unique modifiers to differentiate them from other options. Traditions have their own codes of conducts, limitations and advantages instead of just being variations of drain codes and spirit roles and decks have their own unique abilities than just shuffle attributes around.
Also, elementals are back while wild spirits are even more shamanistic themed spirits than the normal ones. They are optional for now, but maybe we will see bigger differences between hermetics and shamans when it comes to summoning in 6E?
Of course I can be wrong and the uniqueness is just because that every sensible stat permutation has already been done and they needed a reason for the new stuff to exist.

But assuming the new advanced books are a preview for 6E what do you think about that? Good? Bad? Too early to tell?


Assuming this is all true. (there'ss some interesting points!)

It seems that the move is to add a level complexity back to the game that 4e (the first real big change in the game)  removed.

As you noted,  in FA we seem a return to a more 3e style of magic with complex traditions (and not just a fancy name stapled to cosmetics), and 2 "new" types of astral entities - which were basically the spirit types from 3e.

For the most part i don't have a problem with this, as I felt this change in 4e also really changed the "feel" of magic in Shadowrun.


Matrix:
The matrix side of Shadowrun has always been an issue. Its a great concept, but integrating it into a team game  that balances the time and need of all the players at the table has always been an issue. "Old Skool" players know the Pizza Meme for Shadowrun for the matrix from 1 to 3e ("And now it's the decker's turn. Time to go get the pizzas!")  So I appreciate the efforts tehy have taken to try to both speed up, and expand the role of deckers beyond being door keys.

Technos... well, we all know how I feel about them... nothing to see here. Move along :D
(Yes, they need to be fixed... you just don't want to hear how *I* would "fix" them..so lets just leave that to others)

Riggers could use a little love.... as in making it a bit easier to figure out "what skills you need" and keeping them in the flow of the game, because the rigger hiding the car doesn't inspire loyalty :D

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-07-18/1856:45>
Too early to tell.

I'd say that even discussing 6E in concrete ways, as opposed to whether or not one will hypothetically (soon) exist, is certainly too early.  Has CGL confirmed a 6E is even in the works?

They seem to play things close to the chest...

We didn't really get much of an advance announcement about 5e, in development terms... just an announcement that in a few months 5e would be rolled out.
There was no community involvement that I am aware of.... (no giant posts about it or asking for play testers) Now there was play testing done, but I don't know how the people where picked.. It very well could have been the freelancers and Catalyst staffers who did all that with their own groups or together...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ixal on <11-08-18/1418:00>
Too early to tell.

I'd say that even discussing 6E in concrete ways, as opposed to whether or not one will hypothetically (soon) exist, is certainly too early.  Has CGL confirmed a 6E is even in the works?

If you subscribe to the idea that the matrix change will come with the edition then CGL must certainly work on 6E. After all we not only have hints about the new matrix, the metaplot which will likely result in the new matrix being adopted has already started. Also we also have a general idea about the new matrix (still wireless, but with old style location based hosts). So CGL must at least have a vision about how they want 6E to look like, but more likely they already have a timeline of when they will be finished with 6E so that they can push the metaplot along accordingly.

That makes me think, the new hosts in Kill Code do kinda fit with how the next matrix will supposedly look like compared to the current one. So that would suggest that those books are indeed at least in part a test for 6E concepts.


Riggers could use a little love.... as in making it a bit easier to figure out "what skills you need" and keeping them in the flow of the game, because the rigger hiding the car doesn't inspire loyalty :D


We don't have a second Rigger advance book, right? Do you know if anything like that is in the pipeline?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-08-18/1524:23>
Contrary to what some think, I have zero pull or influence with CGL.  I am just a life long fan of the game :D

My knowledge of what is coming up, what is out, and their future plans are all pulled from the same sources as you. (Social media, webpage, these forums, what i can bribe out of someone.)

Normally however, the running gag of shadowrun has always been (until this edition) that when the Rigger book comes, so does the next edition!

This is because if you look at the release history of books for shadowrun, usually an edition change happened with in 3 to 6 months of the Rigger book....

So IF they announce an "Extended  Rigger" book... I money is that an edition change is far behind :D

(I'll play the odds :D)   
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <11-08-18/1541:50>
This is because if you look at the release history of books for shadowrun, usually an edition change happened with in 3 to 6 months of the Rigger book....

So IF they announce an "Extended  Rigger" book... I money is that an edition change is far behind :D

(I'll play the odds :D)
Oh.... So 14 months then.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-08-18/1634:43>
that would be 2020 :P
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <11-08-18/1805:46>
I cannot wait till the plot progresses to 2100
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-08-18/2016:48>
I cannot wait till the plot progresses to 2100

You expecting something special then?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <11-08-18/2107:30>
I don’t know anything nor have a heard anything but the turn of a century must have some significance somewhere, akin to when the comet came around.

But again 20 years is a lot of time so anything could happen between now (2080) and then
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <11-09-18/0152:47>
I don’t know anything nor have a heard anything but the turn of a century must have some significance somewhere, akin to when the comet came around.


Darn. I was hoping you knew something and were teasing :D
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <11-09-18/0320:54>
If I knew anything I would be bound by the NDA I signed when I joined the errata team I fear :/
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ixal on <11-13-18/1928:42>
In the Thread about upcoming releases it was mentioned that the working title of a upcoming book is "Chicago Chaos".
That implies that the Ares storyline is next which means we still have a few years to wait for the Null and 6E.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Opti on <01-17-19/0055:26>
Chicago Chaos is coming next week and is an Anarchy supplement loosely following the Chicago missions storyline
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <01-17-19/0905:08>
Chicago Chaos is coming next week and is an Anarchy supplement loosely following the Chicago missions storyline

Which raises two questions in my mind:

1) Does anyone have any indication of when the other season 8 missions (3-6) will be released?

2) For people who haven't played through Season 8 yet, and don't mind converting rules one way or the other, which would be more suggested to capture the canon storyline?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mustakrakish on <01-21-19/0531:23>
Chicago Chaos is coming next week and is an Anarchy supplement loosely following the Chicago missions storyline

Which raises two questions in my mind:

1) Does anyone have any indication of when the other season 8 missions (3-6) will be released?

2) For people who haven't played through Season 8 yet, and don't mind converting rules one way or the other, which would be more suggested to capture the canon storyline?

I asked on facebook at around October 18 and they told me that the missions should start be available at around Novemeber 18... seeing that it's almost February 19 I really hope it will be soon, I am running the missions to my friends and I really hope I won't have to stop 4 mission before the end of the story :/
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-26-19/2318:21>
God I hope there is a 6th edition.  There are so many issues and honestly the game has hit a bloat point for me, things that makes the game even more unwieldy.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <03-10-19/1637:30>
I haven't been able to get my group to play Shadowrun in a good while, there are so many serious issues. I really hope the community gets a chance to fill out surveys, polls, questionnaires, partake in CGL run threads that actually get looked at, etc. I really hope they don't just all of a sudden drop 6E without giving us a chance to help shape it. Here are some things I seriously hate:

1. Priority System Char Gen: This is the reason people optimize so heavily, it really sucks to lose 50+ karma during character creation, it's unfathomably poorly designed and it needs to go.
2. The Matrix: Way too slow and complicated, very few groups enjoy it as is.
3. Poorly Written Rules: In Anarchy you can one-shot a car with a pistol. The conjuring rules don't exist, there is no target number and no consequence of failure. Drones rules are seriously lacking. Then 5E has too many issues to list, mostly too complicated to remember/be fun.
4. Shadow Talk: Please keep it out of rules books, you don't see this kind of thing in every D&D book, it's filler and I don't want it, just put a fluff section at the beginning or end of the book if needed.
5. Skill cap being 12(13). Simply way too high and not fun rolling absurd amounts of dice. When people buy tiny dice just to play that is a sign there is a problem.
6. Most of the  Negative Qualities are horrible and unusable/not fun at all.

I could go on for quite some time but that's all I'll mention for now. Feel free to disagree but I know that there are many people with similar opinions so I don't think it's fair to say that everything is fine.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <03-10-19/1806:18>
I haven't been able to get my group to play Shadowrun in a good while, there are so many serious issues. I really hope the community gets a chance to fill out surveys, polls, questionnaires, partake in CGL run threads that actually get looked at, etc. I really hope they don't just all of a sudden drop 6E without giving us a chance to help shape it. Here are some things I seriously hate:

1. Priority System Char Gen: This is the reason people optimize so heavily, it really sucks to lose 50+ karma during character creation, it's unfathomably poorly designed and it needs to go.
2. The Matrix: Way too slow and complicated, very few groups enjoy it as is.
3. Poorly Written Rules: In Anarchy you can one-shot a car with a pistol. The conjuring rules don't exist, there is no target number and no consequence of failure. Drones rules are seriously lacking. Then 5E has too many issues to list, mostly too complicated to remember/be fun.
4. Shadow Talk: Please keep it out of rules books, you don't see this kind of thing in every D&D book, it's filler and I don't want it, just put a fluff section at the beginning or end of the book if needed.
5. Skill cap being 12(13). Simply way too high and not fun rolling absurd amounts of dice. When people buy tiny dice just to play that is a sign there is a problem.
6. Most of the  Negative Qualities are horrible and unusable/not fun at all.

I could go on for quite some time but that's all I'll mention for now. Feel free to disagree but I know that there are many people with similar opinions so I don't think it's fair to say that everything is fine.


Just out of curiosity how does your group like Heroes System? Or Fate System?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <03-10-19/2301:55>
Just out of curiosity how does your group like Heroes System? Or Fate System?

After having a blast playing Anarchy but later watching it all fall apart as we delved into the more complex aspects of the rules (many which are absent or broken), I did a lot of searching for replacement games and stumbled upon Fate. I read the book and was extremely impressed with the layout and the majority of the rules. What I wasn't as excited about was how special abilities were created, such as how I would replicate cyberware in a Shadowrun conversion. I found it slow and awkward, not ideal for improvisation. However, we went through character creation and really liked it, except for the cyberware part. Everything was looking good and we were ready to play when we would be in the mood, but we never got that far. Sadly, we did not play a single session and the book has not been touched since. As for the Hero System, I am not familiar with it but I think I gave it a quick glance at some point.

I have done a lot of searching for rules-lite games and considered other more complex games as well but I never find something that really draws me in. We are currently playing D&D 5E, we had a lot of good times and bad times with the system but it's going okay at the moment. We sometimes talk about playing Shadowrun 4E again but the priority system is quite bad, just like in 5E, so we opted for karma buy and stopped after character creation took far too many hours. Long story short, we can't win these days :P I am hoping for Anarchy 2.0 (probably many years away) or 6E (seems a bit closer). I'm just so worried that these products will be botched and I think it's easily avoidable if CGL works with the community instead of saying "Here you go, hopefully, it's good." After playing 5E and Anarchy I really have to wonder how thoroughly the games are playtested, it seems like much less so than needed. 5E has painfully slow advancement, bordering on not fun at all it's so extreme, quite punishing for short campaigns. Most of the magic and matrix rules are simply not fun, my longtime Shadowrun fan friend has literally never used a spirit as GM or PC, for example. Sorry, I'm getting far away from your question, I just wish that my Shadowrun experience would go much better.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <03-10-19/2340:40>
I love 5th D&D, I think it's a great system. I still prefer 4th D&D, but 5th is stupid simple, and that has lots of advantages.

I get some folks don't enjoy priority but  5e SR currently has four gen options and a large number of variants under those methods. More in fact then any other edition of SR. Priority, Sum2ten, Point Buy, and Life Modules. Under those we have Prime running, Gang level, then the exotic options (AI, Spirits, Draco forms, surge, HMHVV, alt metas etc.) It also discusses how to change methods help them fit your game concept, don't like straight priority? Try AABCC, or Sum2forteen or sum2eight if you prefer less powerful, for greatest flexibility point buy, don't like 5e point buy? Just increase the karma until you get the characters you want your group to play. Want to dumb it down? then Life modules, are fast, stack'em up and then flush out the concept.

There is a lot of 5e at this point, I'm not sure that addresses your concern, but this isn't the game outlined in SR5 Core by a long, long shot.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-12-19/1511:04>
I love 5th D&D, I think it's a great system. I still prefer 4th D&D, but 5th is stupid simple, and that has lots of advantages.

I get some folks don't enjoy priority but  5e SR currently has four gen options and a large number of variants under those methods. More in fact then any other edition of SR. Priority, Sum2ten, Point Buy, and Life Modules. Under those we have Prime running, Gang level, then the exotic options (AI, Spirits, Draco forms, surge, HMHVV, alt metas etc.) It also discusses how to change methods help them fit your game concept, don't like straight priority? Try AABCC, or Sum2forteen or sum2eight if you prefer less powerful, for greatest flexibility point buy, don't like 5e point buy? Just increase the karma until you get the characters you want your group to play. Want to dumb it down? then Life modules, are fast, stack'em up and then flush out the concept.

There is a lot of 5e at this point, I'm not sure that addresses your concern, but this isn't the game outlined in SR5 Core by a long, long shot.
4th ed D&D should die in a fire, along with the people who designed it. Comparing 5E D&D to 3.X or 2nd is like comparing a Model T to a modern vehicle. Yes, the modern vehicle is more complex, but it is able to do shit the Model T can't, and there's room for customization.

As for my opinions on chargen in SR? Scrap all the 5E options, go back to 4E's point buy, and get rid of the scaling karma costs for advancement that makes it so a character coming out of chargen is as good as they are ever going to be in a practical setting. Priority system and scaling karma costs are sacred cows that need to be sent to the slaughterhouse and turned into steaks already.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <03-12-19/1724:27>
@ShadowJack My issue with all the rules-lite approaches to Shadowrun is losing some of the delightful crunch of cyberwear, where you might choose have a used cyber-limb or it matters that you spent the extra cash on bioware instead of similar cyberware, etc.  (this feeling applies to Anarchy as much as other fan approaches). (and to a lesser degree magic traditions)

However if I could just get past that part, I'd entirely run the game with the HeroQuest system (the rpg rule set by that name, not the older board game by that name).  They were published initially for a fantasy setting as Hero Wars, then revised and printed also as a stand-alone rule set -- you can get the base rules book for ten bucks on drivethrurpg.  The rules scale with power seamlessly, you can literally start with no more than character concepts if you feel like it, and it has some very nice mechanisms to focus play time on the most dramatic part of events.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <03-12-19/1833:45>
Nursing a perpetual arm injury so I need to keep it short :P

@Marcus: I don't like any of the 5E char gen options, all characters should be worth the same amount of karma in char gen by default. As for 5E, I'm having a good time :)

@Mirikon: I loathe scaling costs, you are exactly right. I wish I could just pay for what I want in a simple manner, or, allocate points in the priority system without getting screwed over for creating a character without optimizing heavily due to the mathematical nature of costs.

@Beta: I know what you mean although I have come to not mind it as much, instead of having 10 pieces of ware I might only have 3, but those pieces really define my character build so they feel very fun in that way. I ordered Chicago Chaos earlier, despite some of the rules issues with Anarchy I'm going to take another crack at it as it's been the best for me in terms of short session prep and actually getting lots of sessions in. It also feels more modern and fresh, easier, etc.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ajax on <03-12-19/1901:07>
I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <03-12-19/1958:58>
4th ed D&D should die in a fire, along with the people who designed it. Comparing 5E D&D to 3.X or 2nd is like comparing a Model T to a modern vehicle. Yes, the modern vehicle is more complex, but it is able to do shit the Model T can't, and there's room for customization.

It is worth noting 5e was largely designed as a throw back to 2nd. Comparing it to 3 is actually very funny, as 5e is a great deal less sophisticated rules wise. Just take a look at the non-euclidean movement rules in 5e. Which amusingly is something 5e inherited from 4e.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <03-12-19/2108:11>
I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.



I'm with you on that. Taking the time to count out 10-20 dice or even 30 dice for rolls really slows down gameplay, I prefer to place a higher value on roleplaying by using quicker dice rolling. I also think that using dice rolling apps is a step backwards but that's just me.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <03-12-19/2115:46>
I think Priority is better for chargen, especially for newbies. I honestly feel that SR4 had a lot of trap options because it was hard to understand which way to go with a character until you got more familiarity with the system.

I honestly feel is harder to make a awful character in SR5 because of priority.

However, one thing I'd like is if the karma costs were more balanced. This way sum to 10 doesn't end up so broken.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-12-19/2121:42>
I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.



I'm with you on that. Taking the time to count out 10-20 dice or even 30 dice for rolls really slows down gameplay, I prefer to place a higher value on roleplaying by using quicker dice rolling. I also think that using dice rolling apps is a step backwards but that's just me.
Do what I do, and line up the dice. 6 rows of 6 d6s is 36 d6. Doesn't take long to pull 20 d6 out of that, because three rows is 18, and grab 2 more. done and done.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <03-13-19/0027:17>
Do what I do, and line up the dice. 6 rows of 6 d6s is 36 d6. Doesn't take long to pull 20 d6 out of that, because three rows is 18, and grab 2 more. done and done.

That works but it involves constantly lining up dice and I find it to be a pain the ass, to be honest :P I also don't like the feeling of filling my hand with dice and rolling them, it also seems very antiquated.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <03-13-19/0146:59>
I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.
Eh, the dicepools have already significantly reduced in 5e. As for other dice systems, I actually like the math around Shadowrun. I personally loathe 1d20 games because they're just too random, whereas 2d6 (and in lesser amount, 2d10) poses too big of an impact on even a single +1. In WITCH: The Fated, I started near-optimal at +14 on Artefact creation, and under houserules only have 39% chance to create an Epic Artefact in 1 month (which already shows how batshit good my character is). An extra +2 (maximum possible when minmaxing) would boost that to 69%, that's how big a 'mere' +2 can be in such a system. It's more balanced in Shadowrun.

That said, I do like the decreasing in 5e, and I use tricks where whenever I host Open Events, dice are all gathered in sets of 9 for easy counting (sets of 6 would also work). Plus I got a set of Shadowrun dice (7x6) and ordered some from that Kickstarter where the colors are different for hits.

I think Priority is better for chargen, especially for newbies. I honestly feel that SR4 had a lot of trap options because it was hard to understand which way to go with a character until you got more familiarity with the system.

I honestly feel is harder to make a awful character in SR5 because of priority.

However, one thing I'd like is if the karma costs were more balanced. This way sum to 10 doesn't end up so broken.
Agreed, karma could use some balancing, plenty of ways that that might be done, but you just know there will always be people complaining. =P Whatever game-balance happens (examples: Prio chargen, Limits, boost to ranged defense, boost to skill cap, 1 attack per IP...), people will complain about it and claim the new edition sucks and only 3e or even 1e ('because permanent damage to your Magic on a big damage roll!') was decent enough for their tastes.

But yeah, I prefer Priority over BP (broken just as poorly and way too complicated) and karmagen (too many fucking options...) when it comes to new characters. I tried Lifestyle, but it's near-impossible to neatly spec out a focused character because again, so many options, too much math. Took me ages to get some sample characters done that way.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <03-13-19/1334:25>
I like Life Modules in principle, but it is literally a bolt-on to Point Buy and doesn't give you a completed character at the end. If it was tuned to actually produce complete characters and you could use it with random tables, then at least it could be useful as an NPC or contact generator.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <03-13-19/1339:14>
True, though if you stack enough of them you can get close enough to karma spent. =P Then just throw in some manual rounding and bam. NPCs would be easier, especially with a tool such as HeroLab.

Aaaaaand now I want to go roll half a dozen random NPCs with HeroLab. I hate you. -_-
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ajax on <03-13-19/1513:11>
I have always loved life path systems. IMHO, the Modiphius’s Infinity and Conan RPGs both offer the best life path character creation systems out of any modern games. The classic Traveller has one that still holds up decades later... and no one will ever be able to top the incredibly detailed but easy to use system from Pendragon (you start with your character’s grandfather for crissakes!)

I think Shadowrun would be a great setting for such a system, but the SR5 life module system as published feels like a “rough draft” and not a final product.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-13-19/1837:59>
Do what I do, and line up the dice. 6 rows of 6 d6s is 36 d6. Doesn't take long to pull 20 d6 out of that, because three rows is 18, and grab 2 more. done and done.

That works but it involves constantly lining up dice and I find it to be a pain the ass, to be honest :P I also don't like the feeling of filling my hand with dice and rolling them, it also seems very antiquated.
Meh, I enjoy grabbing all those d6s and lining them up, and then rolling handfuls at a time. There is something deeply satisfying in having a visible, tangible example of your character's ability.

It is the same in D&D 3.X, when you have a Rogue on their sneak attack dice, or a wizard casting fireball. It is a little thing, but it makes you FEEL powerful, and that adds so much to the reward loop of the game, far, far more than doing a simple roll of a d20 (or a 3d6 in HERO), adding a modifier, and seeing if you beat the target. Adding another d6 to the pile feels better and more rewarding than adding another +1 or +2 to your d20 roll.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <03-18-19/1509:18>
Well, I like the dice pool system. Generally, I prefer dice pools in games. I never got how it is too much of a logistical hassle for some people, to handle multiple dice, but hey, we're different. I get SR could be a bit silly, with high pools, compared, to, lt's say, WoD. but it has its charm, for me.

I also like that the game is complex as is. I don't want it to be rules light, there are plenty of rules light games out there nowadays. I like the options and the simulation. I think that it's good to have Anarchy, as a separate line for people who want that style (and I think it's important to not letting anarchy be neglected, as a line), but I don't think the core game should be like that.

Also, I actually like the priority system. It helped me as a new player. As it was mentoned, 5e has many cargen options, to satisfy those who don't like priority, so, I'm content. I can get teh argument that the progression is too slow, but I like the life-like system of increasing karma prices, though, the numbers could use some tinkering, or something like the Slow/normal/fast progression modes in Pathfinder.

I'd just like to mention, at the end, that I'm not an old-timer and not saying the above because of nostalgia. I'm with SR for 3-ish years only and I know just 3e and 5e.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-01-19/0100:07>
So a few details were released in a Reddit AMA to the new SR6 lead designer. Good news all, you don't have to worry about how annoying chargen is anymore:

Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/b7swln/lvn_here_ive_been_hired_as_a_lead_designer_for/
5. Certain character generation options are causing trouble, so we've adopted a class based system, where you can enter into prestige classes like blood mage, or technomancer or pixie.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-01-19/0105:12>
So a few details were released in a Reddit AMA to the new SR6 lead designer. Good news all, you don't have to worry about how annoying chargen is anymore:

Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/b7swln/lvn_here_ive_been_hired_as_a_lead_designer_for/
5. Certain character generation options are causing trouble, so we've adopted a class based system, where you can enter into prestige classes like blood mage, or technomancer or pixie.

Yeahhhh....
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-01-19/0644:10>
So a few details were released in a Reddit AMA to the new SR6 lead designer. Good news all, you don't have to worry about how annoying chargen is anymore:

Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/b7swln/lvn_here_ive_been_hired_as_a_lead_designer_for/
5. Certain character generation options are causing trouble, so we've adopted a class based system, where you can enter into prestige classes like blood mage, or technomancer or pixie.

Censored due to violating NDA
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <04-01-19/2204:27>
...

somehow I doubt it :P
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-02-19/0250:03>
...

somehow I doubt it :P
April's Fools is over so we can confirm that it was a joke. :P There were plenty of tip-offs in the AMA, and JM Hardy even officially confirmed.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <04-02-19/1230:26>
While I was totally sure this was April fools. I still think it's a dick move. You could easily have just said there would be a complete errata fix.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <04-03-19/1452:07>
Well, i got a good laugh, but at the same time, a little feeling of dread, for SR ever going this way, truly.

 These days (talking from the esteemed age of 30 years...) there are not many rpgs out there, sadly, that I like as system goes, since I generally prefer classic rpg rules design. Many games I like just went down the drain for me, as the new editions rolled out, in the past several years. Shadowrun is one of the few remining and I hope it'll stay that way.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <04-05-19/2129:38>
Well, i got a good laugh, but at the same time, a little feeling of dread, for SR ever going this way, truly.

 These days (talking from the esteemed age of 30 years...) there are not many rpgs out there, sadly, that I like as system goes, since I generally prefer classic rpg rules design. Many games I like just went down the drain for me, as the new editions rolled out, in the past several years. Shadowrun is one of the few remining and I hope it'll stay that way.

I agree.
4e dnd rules killed dnd for me.... (thankfully Pathfinder kept the favor going).

I have yet to check of pathfinder 2.0 as I am so busy, I haven't fully read the last 3 SR books yet :(

(Maybe a vacation is in order... when is DragonCon again??)
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-05-19/2346:40>
Labor Day weekend (Thurs, Aug 29 - Mon Sep 2).

Yes, things are actually officially starting on Thursday now. Oh, and if anyone wants to help newbies out, the Newbie walking tours and Q&A sessions are on Thursday of the con.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-06-19/0431:23>
Well, i got a good laugh, but at the same time, a little feeling of dread, for SR ever going this way, truly.

 These days (talking from the esteemed age of 30 years...) there are not many rpgs out there, sadly, that I like as system goes, since I generally prefer classic rpg rules design. Many games I like just went down the drain for me, as the new editions rolled out, in the past several years. Shadowrun is one of the few remining and I hope it'll stay that way.

I agree.
4e dnd rules killed dnd for me.... (thankfully Pathfinder kept the favor going).

I have yet to check of pathfinder 2.0 as I am so busy, I haven't fully read the last 3 SR books yet :(

(Maybe a vacation is in order... when is DragonCon again??)
The ease of character creation/advancement in 4e allowed me to do an online campaign where people repeatedly ended up in their future L10 selves (which I had to make). But I disliked the lack of proper difference between a lot of classes. 5e and Pathfinder are both quite nice, 5e is better when playing with people that run into trouble with massive rulesets.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <04-06-19/0837:34>
My issue with 4e, was simple: I couldn't make a character I wanted to play. 4e DnD was basically "lets take World of Warcraft, and make it a Pen and Paper game!"
Every class was locked into a particular armor and weapon set, no matter what you wanted to do...

Want a 2 weapon Fighter? Sorry, all the fighter feats revolve around "Sword and Board" or "2 handed weapon" - there is NO option to 2 weapon fight as a FIGHTER.

Want to a Rogue ranged attacker? Sorry, all the feats revolve around melee combat, with no option for ranged combat....

And on the list goes...

The sole reason I play pen and paper games is because I get to play characters I find interesting... If I wanted a cookie cutter character, I would play World of Warcraft, or any other CRPG.

Now, I haven't even looked at 5e dnd, so I'll take you word that its improved... but "improved" means different things to different people :D After all, 4e was supposed to be an "improved" DnD experience to 3.5... Yet seems to have fractured the player base and driven some customers away (like me)...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Marcus on <04-06-19/2125:13>
For the record all the build things (d/w warriors, ranged rogue) Reaver listed did eventually get added into 4e. It did take time.
4e Standardized and balanced D&D. The only edition where casters didn't eventually run the table in terms of balance.
It's also simplified a lot of things. Residium (Magic Item Creation), Rituals, Tiered Currency, even counting squares on the map, monsters and encounter design etc. Even reward progression was built into 4e. It accomplished what had been wanted from the early days of D&D, the ability make all character transferable.

It's addition of Skill challenges, scale able monsters, easy encounter design all made 4e a well built game. Monster design of 4e is particularly notable. Monster had category types that help modify their stats. Soldiers, Brutes, Lurkers, Minions, Solos. 5e's monster are all built following the 4e Brute rules, (Low Defenses, lots of Hit points).

Even combat in 4e was improved, Bloody (Being at or below half health), gave designed many more options. Monster often had effects that were trigger when they were bloody. This sort of created sort of scripted type encounters, which added interesting things to the 4e table. 

Now of course nothing is perfect  and ss with every Edition of D&D 4th did have trouble with scaling, as good as they were, C&C mechanics did eventually largely trivialize the epic tier (level 20+). (That said, Spells do that ever other edition of d&d generally around 11th level. So We got 9 more levels then we did previously).

The party of 4e Ended with the release of Essentials books. This tragic mistake was done to address the complaints, of those who just didn't like that you had multiple powers and had to make choices. This put the edition to into a book bloat death spiral, as they no longer continued to push the developed that most of it's fan's liked.

Another major failing of 4e, was how easy it was to build a very ineffective characters. This was a very serious issue. It required good level of system understanding  across both class, gear, feats, and stats to make a truly effective builds. Further to this, was power sources, 4e had power sources, for example, Arcane, Divine, Martial, and then a complete set of classes for each power source. (Class roles were Leader (Healer), Striker (DPS), Defender (Tank), and Controller.) While it wasn't necessary to build unified power sources it helped increased party synergy fairly well. Something that was fairly rare.

Just to help illustrate, what I mean when I say it was easy to build ineffective characters,  towards the end of 4e, a lot optimization was done around making characters that could carry a whole party through an adventure, to add insult to injury it was certainly possible to achieve that goal.

There was also no follower or strong hold systems in 4e. Something many old school players really liked.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <04-08-19/1456:50>
Well, i got a good laugh, but at the same time, a little feeling of dread, for SR ever going this way, truly.

 These days (talking from the esteemed age of 30 years...) there are not many rpgs out there, sadly, that I like as system goes, since I generally prefer classic rpg rules design. Many games I like just went down the drain for me, as the new editions rolled out, in the past several years. Shadowrun is one of the few remining and I hope it'll stay that way.


I agree.
4e dnd rules killed dnd for me.... (thankfully Pathfinder kept the favor going).

I have yet to check of pathfinder 2.0 as I am so busy, I haven't fully read the last 3 SR books yet :(

(Maybe a vacation is in order... when is DragonCon again??)

Heh, I didn't even count D&D 4e. :D I wasn1t a fan of it either, went forward with PF too. I'm curious about PF2 and really-really hope it won't go as practically all the other games I like, these days.

 D&D 5e? Nice system for a "basic" rpg. good if you need a fast, plug and play game. I'm willing to play one-shots with it, but it's just too restricted, the classes too locked for me. Also, I hate how they treate the settings.

 7thSea 2e? I was very glad when I saw it'll be a thing, then the ruleset killed it for me, totally.

 Unknown Armies 3e? Same thing as above. don't like the visuals, don't like the rules.

 Vampire 5? Perhaps the worst offender, partly because I liked it soo much. Many interesting ideas, that could have been good, but he end result got me totally disinterested, which I never thought I'll ever say about VtM/WoD. It's just so not what that games is for me, on every level.

 Laughably, the most recent rpg I found that I liked and very much so is Carella's Witchcraft and it's from '98...

 Truly, among the contemporary games it's practically only SR I still like (and maybe CoC) in the form of their latest iterations and I hope they will remain that way.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: mcv on <04-16-19/1051:50>
Being fairly new to 5th edition and having only briefly brushed 4th, I'm not exactly an expert on everything that's right or wrong with these systems. Personally, I would strongly prefer a new edition that is mostly compatible with 5th but with better editing and fixing various details and imbalances, than one that completely changes everything.

I certainly have some issues with 5th: hosts seem too big to properly deal with small systems; 4e nodes seem much more flexible, but I have too little experience with them to know what was wrong with the 4e Matrix rules. On the whole, Matrix rules are vague and it's a big mystery to me how to run Matrix stuff properly. Redoing that would be awesome.

For the most part, though, I'd like to stick with what I just started. If the new edition is not compatible, chances are small that I'm going to use it.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-17-19/1149:34>
Full disclosure. We did one campaign with 5th Ed by now. The last time we played SR was ages ago. Edition 2.01 I think. The black book with some Elf about to jack into a snack vending machine while AfroTatanka and David Bowie were covering his ass.

There is alot of new stuff that I like. The effort to modernize the world and the game is admirable. There is also way more freaky stuff, which Iīm split on. I generally approve of it. But playable mutants and AIs may be the wrong incentives. (Also, remove Asamando. Itīs just incredibly stupid.)

But what surprised me most is that the things that bugged me about 5th Ed are almost 100% the same things that bugged me all that time ago.

The matrix. Mechanically clunky. And, after all these sourcebooks, the worst thing is that I still have a hard time to describe my players how it is supposed to work in the gameworld. The stackable +2 dice deity of some Technoshaman gets page count, while we do not know if traffic lights are part of a host or not.

The power creep. After the core rules every īmechanicalī sourcebook beyond that is just a list of upgrades. Stupid ones with stupid justifications. Some even undermining all the worldbuilding that was done before. (Looking at you, TMs-who-died-for-our-sins)
And for no good reason. Yes, yes. Powerfantasy. Fine. But why do you even need 12 more dice than a ganger? You come with 8 more than him straight out of chargen. It just gets silly.

Being able to compare I think itīs safe to say, that these persistent problems all derive from the same source:
Every single thing in SR assumes that the players are in the process of doing a shadowrun right now.

The rules assume it, the worldbuilding assumes it, everything. Duh, I know, itīs in the name of the game. And I approve. But hereīs the rub. Instead of creating a world in which shadowruns make sense first and creating rules for that world, it is the other way round. There is the (ongoing) shadowrun and everything else is just attached to it. That is the source of much weirdness and thatīs why in any other situations the systems are prone to break down. Even if it is not the players but some NPC doing the shadowrun.
You hack the con laboratory, not the other way round. Thatīs why it doesnīt matter your stuff would be unhackable if it were slaved to some teenagerīs MetaLink, who is in a burmese PornHost all day. Same reason why the cons all agreed to have a matrix where changing some password requires Dan from IT to kiss his wife goodbye. (FFS data pulse!) And itīs also the reason for the constant armīs race to the point you would be forgiven to think you are playing Yu-Gi-Oh. Btw. we have anti-gravity tech now, just so you know. We use it for grenades, obviously.



And if you were about to post `If you hate it so much, then this is just not the game your you, omae` you should reconsider. It is just the right game for us. Otherwise we wouldnīt have come back to it after all these years. You donīt acquire any "rights" to be a fan by approving of every aspect. Leaving aside the fact, that a real fan would absolutely want the thing he likes so much to improve and mature.
And SR has indeed matured quite a bit over the years. I hope it can keep doing it. 6th Ed would be a good opportunity.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-17-19/1445:49>
I think 5th has its issues, but in my opinion the Matrix rules are one of its strengths.  Everything is hackable, and 5th edition has come the closest Shadowrun has ever been to getting rid of the "Decker's turn to do his thing for a couple hours" aspect of game play.

The post before mine mentioned the ambiguity about hacking traffic lights as a negative.  I see that ambiguity instead as a positive. It's only a small number of variables that a GM has to invent, and they're all binary in nature.

1) Is the device wireless? It might be hard wired, or it might be wireless throwback... but generally this first variable is "Yes, everything's wireless unless there's a solid reason for it not to be".

2) Is the device slaved in a PAN or WAN? If no, Device Ratings are loose but easy enough to interpret.  Civilian grade electronics? Device Rating 1 or 2.  If not something cheap/expendable, it's probably 2. In the case of traffic lights, the answer as to whether they're slaved to a Host is dependent upon whether you want the traffic light to be hard to hack or not.  Best of all, you get to decide without forfeiting your prerogative to decide the other way on the next traffic light!

3) Is the device inside a Host? If yes, that host must be penetrated because you can't even see icons inside a host unless you're also inside that host.  No ability to target=no targeting with hacking actions. Note that this variable is independent of variable 2.  Saying yes to this is basically just telling the hacker that it's not an easy hack. (or: that you're going to need a Data Tap) A traffic light can be "inside" a host without being slaved by that host.

I like this edition's matrix rules because of its open-ended, infinite possibilities.

Player asks: Can I hack the guy's sneakers and make him trip?  Variable 1) No reason to be hardwired to anything, nor is there any reason most people turn wireless off on things, so sure. Yes to 1). Variable 2) his shoes could be part of a PAN, maybe. Even if you say yes, all it means is you need to figure out what DR his commlink is.  Variable 3) Clearly a no.  3 fairly quick and easy answers, so all you really need to do is figure out how to mechanically represent what actually is imposed upon the target if the hacker is successful and the shoes suddenly self-unbuckle or loosen.

Player asks: Can I hack the guy's soup he's slurping? Variable 1) again, unless there's a perfectly good reason to say no, you should be saying yes. Nanopaste broadcasting simsense is perfectly plausible, so sure, why not, it's possible to make his soup smell like poopy diapers so long as he's got a DNI (or oflactory booster cyberware). 2) Surely a no.  3) again, surely a no.  Go wild, decker!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-17-19/1854:06>
Giving the decker more to do and a reason to accompany the team belongs to what I called `to modernize the worldī and is, in itself, a big plus of 5th Ed.
But I very much doubt that this goal absolutely requires a matrix that may kill the host owner when he tries to upgrade his own system. Or the worldīs economic leaders being silly enough to finance its creation.

Iīll leave aside how to handle traffic lights or comment on your approach, because that wasnīt my point. But the way you framed your answer actually underlines the approach that I think causes so many problems. And has so for multiple decades. The first thought is about what the player character can or can not do.
But the world has to make sense before the char is even generated.

And easily hackable traffic lights hardly do. So how vulnerable are they really? We do not know. What are corp drones actually doing in their offices 14 hours a day that an agent couldnīt do cheaper and better? We donīt know. I could go on with dozens of examples.
We may never get to know, because the books that are supposed to tell us such stuff are crammed with rationalizations for another +2 dice that might come in handy while sneaking through Secret Lab 51A.



(EDIT: Reading this again let me add I do not aim to single you out or anything. I was trying to point out that taking the perspective of the player group/protagonists and doing your worldbuilding/rule smithing from there will inevitably result in weirdness and contradictions.)
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-18-19/0059:13>
I'd note that sure, beating that ganger with more dice won't matter, but being able to hold off a team of Red Samurai or taking on a Force-8 Shedim / Insect Queen is absolutely something you need those bigger dicepools for. I had a player get petrified by those weird Spirits at some point, and one player got mindcontrolled by a Blood Mage and you can bet they invested in well-needed counterspelling dice after that.

As for the traffic lights: Depends on if you're in a GridGuide-controlled region, I guess. But there's things that don't require you to have them on paper from the start, as long as you and your players are willing to work together. The only time everything MUST be known before creating a character, is when you're playing AGAINST the GM. When you're making the game together, you could go 'say, those traffic lights in that region, are those on a Host?' and if they are, you know you find a traffic light outside camera reach (maybe thanks to a well-timed gunshot on said camera), hack it through a Direct connection, then control the lights you need without having to face the Host. If they're local, you know you have to consider getting close to them and hacking them directly. There's a lot of wiggle space for players and gms, and to most that's quite reasonable. If Shadowrun were to codify everything, we'd require thrice the books at least and the game would be way less fun. 'But page 859 of book Sprawls says!' Instead, we can do things like 'sure, of course you can hack their comms and trace icon all of them. AROs to fire through the walls? Sure, that counts as being surprised alright.'

I understand it's tough for some people to have a more open setting, where they have to make more judgement calls. But I think it fits Shadowrun better when things aren't always black and white setting-wise.

As for disclaimers: Asides from a few dozen open events, I also ran a campaign with 32 games in SR5 after 20 games in SR4. I grew my personal Seattle and the evolution of both setting and pcs was nice.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Banshee on <04-18-19/0759:46>
Giving the decker more to do and a reason to accompany the team belongs to what I called `to modernize the worldī and is, in itself, a big plus of 5th Ed.
But I very much doubt that this goal absolutely requires a matrix that may kill the host owner when he tries to upgrade his own system. Or the worldīs economic leaders being silly enough to finance its creation.

[/size]

I must admit this part of your post really has me confused, can you expand on it so I could then maybe understand your point of view better?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-18-19/0938:05>
Giving the decker more to do and a reason to accompany the team belongs to what I called `to modernize the worldī and is, in itself, a big plus of 5th Ed.
But I very much doubt that this goal absolutely requires a matrix that may kill the host owner when he tries to upgrade his own system. Or the worldīs economic leaders being silly enough to finance its creation.

[/size]

I must admit this part of your post really has me confused, can you expand on it so I could then maybe understand your point of view better?
I'm guessing it's related to Host rules that involve risky stuff when you, even as the owner, try to upgrade it. Because Hosts are scary. I don't recall the detailed rules.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <04-18-19/1021:03>
There is a lack of any explanation of how normal users operate in a host.  i.e. as written, to edit a file is a contest that most people would lose when in a higher rated host.  By RAW this is an everyday work conversation:  "Smith, do you have the updated sales figures?"  "Sorry boss, I've been trying all morning but the system won't let me edit them."

Of course you could hand wave it and say "Oh, legitimate users don't face those access restrictions."  To which any face worth their salt will perk up and respond "You don't say?  And exactly how does it decide who a legitimate user is?" (meanwhile the decker/'mancer is demanding "What is the point of the marks system, if not to show who a legitimate user is?).

Throw in an intrusions expert and the team is soon going "We can get a copy Smith's fingerprints and retinal scans and names of his first pet and childhood hero and whatever, and we can get Smith's link, and have someone sitting at Smith's desk who is indistinguishable from Smith if that is an easier way to access the data we need." 

But yes, there are also some things that can only be done with a foundation run, IIRC, and there is no 'safe mode' on foundation runs.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-18-19/2036:08>
... taking on a Force-8 Shedim...
The players wonīt enjoy beating a Force-8 shedim any more than beating a Force-6 one, when the mechanical power difference to their own chars remains the same. (Which it will, for dramaturgical reasons.)
Itīs not like the GM runs out of shedim at any point. There is no highscore board.

I must admit this part of your post really has me confused, can you expand on it so I could then maybe understand your point of view better?
In my example I refer to Datatrails, page 127. Please note, this is re-translated, so itīs not verbatim:

"Sometimes the owner of a host has to make some upgrades. Perhaps he wants to change the interior design or improve the IC or maintain the archive. In any case, it should be easy for legal users to get access to the nodes, right?
Wrong. Foundations runs are just as dangerous for legal users as for illegal hackers..."


So if you get bored of your caribbean host theme, someone is going to risk his life. You actually pay (costly?) experts who might get their brain fried. This has nothing to do with `a more open setting` it is just plain stupid. It makes no sense whatsoever.
And the only reason I can imagine such a design decision was even considered is `game-ist` to its core. Because, as Beta points out:
Quote
Of course you could hand wave it and say "Oh, legitimate users don't face those access restrictions."  To which any face worth their salt will perk up and respond "You don't say?  And exactly how does it decide who a legitimate user is?" (meanwhile the decker/'mancer is demanding "What is the point of the marks system, if not to show who a legitimate user is?).

The authors clearly WANT you to make foundation hacks. They made 10 pages of rules for them, after all. So they invent reasons for why you, as a team of runners, canīt possibly circumvent one. Reasons that only make sense in the context of `a roleplaying game is going on right now and this is meant as a challange`. Reasons that undermine the gaming world and the suspension of disbelief.

And this is why I do not even mention the traffic lights in this post. Itīs not about them. Itīs not even about the foundation hacks. It is about the approach. An approach that has consistently produced game-ist weirdness for 20 years.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-19-19/0259:17>
... taking on a Force-8 Shedim...
The players wonīt enjoy beating a Force-8 shedim any more than beating a Force-6 one, when the mechanical power difference to their own chars remains the same. (Which it will, for dramaturgical reasons.)
Itīs not like the GM runs out of shedim at any point. There is no highscore board.
Look mate, I'm not telling you how to run your game, but at the very least you couldn't start bashing mine. The stuff is there for reasons, and in my campaign people had plenty of reason to use some of that stuff. If in your games you don't feel like that, that's utterly fine. But I'd prefer if you don't go pretending any game that uses the heavy stuff is ridiculous.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-19-19/1806:46>
I think 5th has its issues, but in my opinion the Matrix rules are one of its strengths.  Everything is hackable, and 5th edition has come the closest Shadowrun has ever been to getting rid of the "Decker's turn to do his thing for a couple hours" aspect of game play.

The post before mine mentioned the ambiguity about hacking traffic lights as a negative.  I see that ambiguity instead as a positive. It's only a small number of variables that a GM has to invent, and they're all binary in nature.

1) Is the device wireless? It might be hard wired, or it might be wireless throwback... but generally this first variable is "Yes, everything's wireless unless there's a solid reason for it not to be".

2) Is the device slaved in a PAN or WAN? If no, Device Ratings are loose but easy enough to interpret.  Civilian grade electronics? Device Rating 1 or 2.  If not something cheap/expendable, it's probably 2. In the case of traffic lights, the answer as to whether they're slaved to a Host is dependent upon whether you want the traffic light to be hard to hack or not.  Best of all, you get to decide without forfeiting your prerogative to decide the other way on the next traffic light!

3) Is the device inside a Host? If yes, that host must be penetrated because you can't even see icons inside a host unless you're also inside that host.  No ability to target=no targeting with hacking actions. Note that this variable is independent of variable 2.  Saying yes to this is basically just telling the hacker that it's not an easy hack. (or: that you're going to need a Data Tap) A traffic light can be "inside" a host without being slaved by that host.
Except you forgot 0) Does the device have any electronic components complex enough to be hacked? A question, might I add, to which the answer is no for both your examples. You can't trip someone by hacking their shoes unless they have stupidly expensive myomeric shoelaces, and you can't hack soup because there's nothing there to hack.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-19-19/1809:18>
Except you forgot 0) Does the device have any electronic components complex enough to be hacked? A question, might I add, to which the answer is no for both your examples. You can't trip someone by hacking their shoes unless they have stupidly expensive myomeric shoelaces, and you can't hack soup because there's nothing there to hack.

I didn't forget it; it's incorporated into variable #1.  Is there a compelling reason the device has no wireless functionality? By default everything is/should be, unless there's reason to say "No."

Self-tying shoes are a staple of futurism.  You can say these particular shoes are self tying, or you can say they're not.  You can say there's simsense-broadcasting nanopaste in the food, or there's not.

One answer is fun and allows the player to do what he wants, and the other answer is saying No you can't do what you want. Either way it's a binary "can it even BE (wirelessly) hacked?" question.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-19/2238:07>
Self-tying shoes show up in one of the Back to the Future movies. Everywhere else either has straps or seals instead of laces if they are self-sealing.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-19-19/2353:24>
Look mate, I'm not telling you how to run your game, but at the very least you couldn't start bashing mine...
That wasnīt my intent. I am not telling you your fun is wrong.
If you think 16 minus 12 is preferable to 12 minus 8, by all means.

I pointed out that the GM can create any dice pool he wants. Itīs not an arms race.

It wonīt help him make the encounter more fun, though, if the justifications for the bigger dice pools donīt make much sense. Mechanically or lore-wise.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-20-19/1031:43>
I didn't forget it; it's incorporated into variable #1.  Is there a compelling reason the device has no wireless functionality? By default everything is/should be, unless there's reason to say "No."
Except that's the exact opposite of how you should be thinking. Shadowrun is a dystopian future ruled by greed, where the chasm between the haves and the have-nots is ever-widening and decisions are made based on how it affects the bottom line. Wireless costs money. Having features that could even be wireless to begin with costs money. That means things don't have wireless by default, and that most people can't afford extraneous wireless features. Almost no one is going to buy myomeric shoelaces when they're (at least) 40 times the price of normal shoelaces of the same quality, and simsense-broadcasting nanopaste is right up there with gold flake hamburgers so chances are the only hackable things you'll ever find in a can of soup are sensor tags used to collect various consumer data.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-20-19/1048:12>
I didn't forget it; it's incorporated into variable #1.  Is there a compelling reason the device has no wireless functionality? By default everything is/should be, unless there's reason to say "No."
Except that's the exact opposite of how you should be thinking. Shadowrun is a dystopian future ruled by greed, where the chasm between the haves and the have-nots is ever-widening and decisions are made based on how it affects the bottom line. Wireless costs money. Having features that could even be wireless to begin with costs money. That means things don't have wireless by default, and that most people can't afford extraneous wireless features. Almost no one is going to buy myomeric shoelaces when they're (at least) 40 times the price of normal shoelaces of the same quality, and simsense-broadcasting nanopaste is right up there with gold flake hamburgers so chances are the only hackable things you'll ever find in a can of soup are sensor tags used to collect various consumer data.

Well now we're getting into opinion, and of course arguing about one anothers' opinion can never end well. Let's just leave it at each of us thinks the other has it backwards.  I prefer to think that "Big Data" surreptitiously spying on every thing you do through every thing you own is rather appropriately dystopian.

In an attempt to leave opinions out of it, here's something we can both agree on.  This is written on page 214 of SR5 core, in the Matrix chapter introduction:
Quote
Everybody uses the Matrix. Most shadowrunners
have multiple pieces of gear that use it, often interacting
with the Matrix without them knowing it. Smartlinks use
it to look up local conditions and calculate firing solutions,
medkits access medical databases to analyze and
diagnose injuries and then recommend treatment, and
your clothes and armor use it to detect wear and tear.
And tell you when it’s time to do the laundry.

I find this to be implicitly saying everything manufactured has a wireless component. Now yes I agree that just because your pants detect and broadcast when they're overdue for a wash, it doesn't mean they also can be hacked into walking around like they were worn by a ghost.  When it comes to what CAN a hacked device do, that's GM's call.  And that goes back into opinion/theory about how accommodating a GM should be to players' ideas.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <04-20-19/1055:44>
I agree about ruled by greed -- which is why corps work hard to sell as much upgraded items as possible (upgraded meaning cheap base materials with fancy features allowing them to charge a premium price).  A mix of marketing, setting implied expectations among employees, control of what is actually available.  It would not shock me to see most corp employees above a certain level would have self-tying shoelaces, because to not have them would suggest that you were not being paid as much (so were not as valued or at the same tier).  Using a cheap soy food base (that has been engineered to last nearly forever) and providing 'exotic' flavors through AR could potentially be cheaper than providing actually interesting food, etc.

Of course people in the barrens or on the lowest rungs of corp work wouldn't have those items.  Most of the point of them would be to provide snob appeal to those who are a little higher up than that.

How it is in your game is, I guess, a matter of what is more interesting or fun to you.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-21-19/1703:53>
I find this to be implicitly saying everything manufactured has a wireless component. Now yes I agree that just because your pants detect and broadcast when they're overdue for a wash, it doesn't mean they also can be hacked into walking around like they were worn by a ghost.
Oh, so is that why all those suits in Run&Gun have wireless?

I agree about ruled by greed -- which is why corps work hard to sell as much upgraded items as possible (upgraded meaning cheap base materials with fancy features allowing them to charge a premium price).  A mix of marketing, setting implied expectations among employees, control of what is actually available.  It would not shock me to see most corp employees above a certain level would have self-tying shoelaces, because to not have them would suggest that you were not being paid as much (so were not as valued or at the same tier).
Problems with that line of thinking: A) For the same price or less (in fact I'm nearly certain it's less given the cost of clothing given in the back of Run Faster), the corp employees could instead buy much better quality shoelaces which would last longer, look better aesthetically and possibly convey the same social status as lower quality self-tying shoelaces. Depending on how you run the setting, that might reduce or eliminate the pool of hackable shoelaces among the wageslaves. B) That might be fine and dandy for the wageslaves working in sales and accounting, but not for any employees who are security-minded. The corpsec will not have myomeric shoestrings that someone could hack and tie together, because company policy isn't going to give some punk shadowrunner the chance to humiliate them like that.

Quote
Using a cheap soy food base (that has been engineered to last nearly forever) and providing 'exotic' flavors through AR could potentially be cheaper than providing actually interesting food, etc.
While I agree, that's different from having nanopaste in your soup. Eating real food with real flavor is a status symbol of the rich, so anyone who's using simsense flavor with soy food to get flavor without paying the premium of real food is going to be using it through their commlink.

I think I haven't properly conveyed my main point, which is that things do not have wireless just so that they can be hacked by shadowrunners. Yes, this means anything with wireless is going to have some degree of protection, but it also means that things only have wireless because there is an in-universe justification, not because a player asked if they could hack it. If a player asks if they can hack the soup, the answer is "no, you cannot hack the soup". If you feel really accommodating, you can follow that up with "but sometimes people who can't afford real food use simsense chips to make their shitty soy-soup taste better, and if that's the case you might be able to make the soup taste horrible if you hack their commlink" or "but sometimes insanely rich people put nanopaste in their soup that wirelessly broadcasts simsense to enhance the flavor, so if you ever run into that you could hack the nanopaste to make the soup taste horrible" But at no point do you ever say anything that can be interpreted as "yes, you can hack the soup". It might seem like splitting hairs, but there's an enormous difference between the mindset that says "yes, you can hack the soup" and the mindset that says "no, you cannot hack the soup, but you can hack the simsense that is being used in conjunction with the soup".
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Reaver on <04-22-19/2118:56>
This kind of takes me back... 25 years ago I went shopping for a new game harddrive for my computer.... a 400MEG hard drive costed $1000...

Just went looking for a new solid state drive... a 1TB drive costs $400...




Morale?

Just cause it sounds fancy in SR, doesn't mean its not dirt cheap, old skool crap to the time line....
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-22-19/2218:10>
Except the books make it crystal clear this stuff is still expensive 62 years down the road. Myomeric rope costs 40 times more than conventional rope of the same length, and the prices for nanobots are consistently in the thousands of nuyen.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <04-23-19/1314:26>
I think I haven't properly conveyed my main point, which is that things do not have wireless just so that they can be hacked by shadowrunners. Yes, this means anything with wireless is going to have some degree of protection, but it also means that things only have wireless because there is an in-universe justification, not because a player asked if they could hack it.

Things that are true in Shadowrun 5E: unless explicitly noted, all things are wireless (page 214, 420); gear doesn't have to have a listed "wireless bonus" to be wireless; anything wireless can be hacked; hacking most things gets you no advantage.

It's the last point that sticks. Just because all things are wireless doesn't mean that their entire control surface is available to remote exploits by hackers. Most of these things will be wireless for no purpose other than telemetry. So you can't "Hack the pants" and hinder someone's movement. For a contemporary example,  most if not all new cars have inflation sensors in the tires. Say that sensor was wireless and attached to the Internet of Things. Say you hacked it. What would you be able to do? Blow out the tire? No, but you could brick it so it no longer reports its status, or you could change its status to say the tire was under pressure when it wasn't. This isn't far from the example in the book (page 421) about hacking some dude's bone lacing. This sets up some out-of-the-box, if trivial, options for shadowrunners.

You're right that "things do not have wireless just so that they can be hacked by shadowrunners" -- things have wireless so the corporations can benefit. Hack The Pants doesn't mean turning the pants into a immobile sheath about someone's legs, it means flagging the telemetry in some way to cause a distraction: "Your pants are ruined," the AR popup says, "Come over to Gap to buy a new pair!" and an AR pin is dropped on the nearest shop. So yeah, "Corporate Dystopia" is the in-universe justification for all things being wireless. 90% of these things should fall beneath a shadowrunner's notice. Hacking the Soup is such a non-action that if it comes up, it's because someone's missing the point. And so is suggesting that the book is *wrong* when it says that all things are wireless.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-23-19/1424:45>
It's a bit disingenuous to say "everything has wireless" when most things only have wireless sensors, isn't it? If you implanted a tracker in a crocodile's head, you wouldn't say the crocodile has wireless.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: JudgeMonroe on <04-23-19/1559:28>
It's a bit disingenuous to say "everything has wireless" when most things only have wireless sensors, isn't it?

No.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-23-19/1928:59>
I would like to point out that the idea of `things do not have wireless just so that they can be hacked by shadowrunnersī is applicable more universally. While we digressed, this is basically my point from last page.

If you build a world (+rules) just to suit the needs of your ongoing run this will inevitably result in weirdness that in the end tears down the 4th wall.

Heck, it may cause problems when the run is over or the roles are reversed and the PCs are trying to stop a run.

It is in this light that I see the idea that anything is hackable and exploitable by the PC. Hackable it might be, but that doesnīt mean itīs useful, as JudgeMonroe rightfully pointed out.

There is no need to make shoelaces able to move freely when simple contraction-relax fiber would be easier to manufacture and program. To make them more complicated than needed, just to accomodate the player and make him feel useful is undermining versimilitude. (not by much, admittedly. Itīs just an example.)
 
Players are smart. They will realize when the whole game world revolves around them. And then stop to take it seriously. Thatīs the opposite of what I am trying to achieve as a GM.



Unrelated, but amusing to think about: I would not make soup hackable. Nanosensors able to withstand gastric acid sounds like something that would cost money. A couple of sensors in the wrapping and in the sewage system might provide more representative data of your target groups anyways.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-27-19/0257:21>
I'd like to point out that it is canonical that there are RFID tags in food.

I'm with SSDR on this. Everything should be hackable, and if you can make it more fun allow it.

Why do people allow their shoes or soup to be hacked? Because of an over confidence in the safety of the system and for general convenience, laziness, and apathy, just like in real life.

Should shoes and soup be hackable? Yes.

But this breaks verisimilitude. It does not because electronics are cheap and getting cheaper. You don't need myomeric rope, you can probably get away with self tightening straps, like in Back to the Future, or maybe you deflate their Reebok Pumps. (remember those?) Which should hit them with some movement penalties or at least a distraction hitting them with a dice penalty for a turn.

But it's not fun when that happens to you. Team work game should require team work. If a team is being assaulted from the Matrix, their Matrix specialist should handle it. You wouldn't expect the decker to banish the spirit, so don't expect your mage or street sam to stop the enemy decker.

One I haven't heard, but I personally feel;

I didn't make a decker to be a crappy debuffer. Agreed...but for some reason people don't like my suggestion of allowing dealing biofeedback damage to people in combat. Somehow this is broken compared to a mage or street sam being able to do the same thing for less...

As for foundations killing system admins, I feel it's very thematic as it shows how little corporations value their own employees and would always feel the more lethal option is more secure.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-27-19/0930:40>
I think I said what I wanted to say about the option and usefulness of hacking shoes and soup.

As for foundations killing system admins, I feel it's very thematic as it shows how little corporations value their own employees and would always feel the more lethal option is more secure.

I donīt think anyone in this thread suggested that the corps would abstain from using the current host design because of a concern for their own employees.

They should abstain from it because it costs money. We arenīt talking about unskilled labour. The employees cost money. The training they must receive only to ->try<- doing admin stuff costs money. Replacing dead employees costs money, the guy in human resources costs money, heck even the paperwork costs money. Even if we disregard all of that as mere sparechange the delay and disruption of ongoing projects caused by personnel turnover alone might prove crippling.
And all the equipment these people fry while doing everyday admin stuff costs money too. Alot of it.

All of these expenses are running costs, a term that makes bean counters clutch their hearts since antiquity.

If we agree that the prime motivation of any corp and the foremost vehicle for individuals to advance within the hierarchy of the corp is money and finding ways how to get it then the whole practice is just inexplicable.
Having them fry employees and equipment despite it hurting the bottom line just because is in the area of cartoon villainy.


And we havenīt touched on the question that not having access to your own system is not improving security, but the opposite. How is making access for your own guys just as deadly helping in thwarting intruders? You explicitly cannot improve security and upgrade your intrusion countermeasures safely. Yes, you want your system lethal, but for the other guys.
A high personnel turnover is a security concern in itself. Either because people arenīt yet familiar with protocols or because of the haste which complicates background checks.
Plus, if any hacking attempt succeeds, (most likely because of the delay or distraction of your guys fighting for their lives against the host instead of having its support) you actually have to hack your own system `back` to get any measure of control over it again. Instead of having a kill-switch or an override.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-27-19/1206:21>
The Megas are the bad guys. Short sighted-ness is their MO. When Danielle de la Mar said she had a solution to close all the loopholes in SR4's Matrix, the Corporate Court just jumps on it without thorough venting or scrutiny. This literally happens with current world Mega corp too, because some business-to-business corporation sells their software-as-a-service solution as a silver bullet that can solve all the company's problems. But it turns out that's not true and there are all kinds of issues with it. These decisions happen all the time by people with a C in their title that because they don't know tech but still fall for the snake oil salesmen's pitch.

I hold people in my fictional setting to a lower standard to people in the real world, because somethings just need to happen for plot convenience.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Wakshaani on <04-27-19/1305:14>
I think, somewhere along the way, what RFID does got confused and it sort of ballooned out of reasonableness into weirdness.

Add to that the loss of things like storage limits and things really took an odd turn, with, for instance, wireless shoelaces that would let you download a copy of the entire Matrix inside of them.

That really needs to be fixed but I don't know if you can get away with a clarification that won't be seen as a massive, if needed, retcon.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-27-19/1314:50>
I think, somewhere along the way, what RFID does got confused and it sort of ballooned out of reasonableness into weirdness.

Add to that the loss of things like storage limits and things really took an odd turn, with, for instance, wireless shoelaces that would let you download a copy of the entire Matrix inside of them.

That really needs to be fixed but I don't know if you can get away with a clarification that won't be seen as a massive, if needed, retcon.
'The Hosts grew sentient and went to war with the Monads, so we blew it all up and tried again, with less success'. :P
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <04-27-19/1348:43>
These decisions happen all the time by people with a C in their title that because they don't know tech but still fall for the snake oil salesmen's pitch.

I see where you are coming from and I would (wholeheartedly) agree that even in the real world inefficient, corrupt and downright stupid systems can persist for quite some time, be it by inertia, shortsightedness and something akin to institutional tradition. Or fear to change a (hardly) running system. I also understand the `too big to fail` route, especially when it comes to bad guys.

But there are three types of people at meetings such as the fateful one with de la Mar. Strategists, lawyers and bean counters. And not having at least one bean counter perk up and ask about something as obvious as `so, about these maintainance costs?`

That would be too much for my group.

If it were something subtle, something requiring lateral thinking, maybe we could swallow it. But this is too basic. And it is in a way too sensitive area, requiring way too much investment. Hosts are where all the dirt is buried. Hosts are where business is done. They are the source of power.
If the corps would be bumbling buffoons at even their core competencies the next thing my players would ask me would be how these frags even became the Top Ten.

I am not trying to convince you that youīre doing it wrong. Whatever works for you is fine. But I donīt see your approach reflected in a lot of canon sources. Maybe that is what bothers me the most with the `deadly hosts.` It is not in line with the rest of the worldbuilding. The corps may be portrayed as uncaring, soulless and oppressive, but never as comically stupid and gullible as this. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

'The Hosts grew sentient and went to war with the Monads, so we blew it all up and tried again, with less success'. :P
Actually I would prefer that to what we have right now. (donīt forget to shoehorn the nulls into it somehow.)  Also, one can only hope for an end to the strained effort for complete matrix/magic symmetry. It robs both of flavour.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Opti on <04-29-19/1040:29>
.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Hobbes on <04-29-19/1222:31>

Add to that the loss of things like storage limits and things really took an odd turn, with, for instance, wireless shoelaces that would let you download a copy of the entire Matrix inside of them.

That really needs to be fixed but I don't know if you can get away with a clarification that won't be seen as a massive, if needed, retcon.

Terabyte sized SSDs are three hundred bucks and are about the size of a MtG booster pack, here IRL.  A TB is a lot of data.  The Library of Congress is an estimated 10 TB.  Digital storage stopped being a significant issue a few years back here IRL.  I think it's okay to abstract most of that.  Keeping track of the storage capacity of your left sock seems unnecessary. 

There are many other issues I have with the Matrix rules.  Getting rid of MegaPulses of storage wasn't a big deal.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <04-29-19/1251:29>

Add to that the loss of things like storage limits and things really took an odd turn, with, for instance, wireless shoelaces that would let you download a copy of the entire Matrix inside of them.

That really needs to be fixed but I don't know if you can get away with a clarification that won't be seen as a massive, if needed, retcon.

Terabyte sized SSDs are three hundred bucks and are about the size of a MtG booster pack, here IRL.  A TB is a lot of data.  The Library of Congress is an estimated 10 TB.  Digital storage stopped being a significant issue a few years back here IRL.  I think it's okay to abstract most of that.  Keeping track of the storage capacity of your left sock seems unnecessary. 

There are many other issues I have with the Matrix rules.  Getting rid of MegaPulses of storage wasn't a big deal.

Between that, and things "on" your devices aren't really stored in physical drives within your devices (what we call cloud computing irl)...

Technically, that hacking app you're running "on" your cyberdeck is in truth probably stored as 1s and 0s on some physical data storage device in a Renraku Data Farm somewhere...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-30-19/0005:23>
I do think the concept of storage is pointless, even in our modern times, so by the 2070's I'm fine with storage becoming a solved problem.

In my Matrix rewrite (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18__Y0385UauDbH2KPx-YxmDWu96QQV-OU_O1bppsdas/edit?usp=sharing), I fluffed it as all data is actually distributed in redundant blockchains to every other device around you, making downloads, storage, and loss of data obsolete, and offering some degree of security as you need to read multiple blockchains which gets around SR4's encryption being an obsolete concept.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <04-30-19/0709:58>
Technically, that hacking app you're running "on" your cyberdeck is in truth probably stored as 1s and 0s on some physical data storage device in a Renraku Data Farm somewhere...
That's fine for wageslaves who never leave the arcology, but this is a game about shadowrunners. I need my programs to work in a Faraday cage at the bottom of the middle of the Atlantic ocean.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <05-01-19/0037:54>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcHfpf5SQU&feature=em-uploademail

6th edition is on the way this year apparently. I really wish there was more community interaction about wants and needs but I guess we'll just have to see how it turns out. Looks like a lot of the needless crap is being removed, like marks, overly complicated vehicle rules, etc. Sounds like the game will play faster and be more fun, perhaps a middleground between Anarchy and 5th Editon in terms of complexity, which I think is great.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: wraith on <05-01-19/0644:33>
What, you're not enthusiastic about a brand that hasn't posted it's own announcement in the forum for it in two years?  Almost like you want to be marketed to or something.   :P
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PiXeL01 on <05-01-19/0650:06>
Why waste energy and resources on something you can get others to do for free.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: wraith on <05-01-19/0854:03>
Depends, did you want an audience larger than the subset of a subset of players who are still paying attention at this point?   ;D
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <05-01-19/0909:59>
This edition isn't even going to be worth stealing. But hey, on the bright side, Catalyst isn't going to have to worry about losing sales to piracy!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-01-19/1107:41>
Why waste energy and resources on something you can get others to do for free.
You mean some people get paid for that?  :o ;D
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <05-01-19/1119:10>
This edition isn't even going to be worth stealing. But hey, on the bright side, Catalyst isn't going to have to worry about losing sales to piracy!

Seriously, you are condemning the whole edition as trash based on the preview podcast?  Come on, at least save some of the nerd rage until the details come out!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-01-19/1155:42>
Torches and pitchforks for sale, people! Just 49 nuyen each, and 99 for a combo!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <05-01-19/1228:00>
Torches and pitchforks for sale, people! Just 49 nuyen each, and 99 for a combo!
Nice try, but I've already know the prices of torches and pitchforks from No Future!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-01-19/1230:08>
Torches and pitchforks for sale, people! Just 49 nuyen each, and 99 for a combo!
Nice try, but I've already know the prices of torches and pitchforks from No Future!
These are special Anniversary ones. They burn pink.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beerhamut on <05-01-19/1255:49>
I'm excited for these changes. Immersion is my #1 priority so cutting out all these roll delays is going to give my players more of a chance to actually experience what I'm trying to show them. Ya know? Instead me fudging rules to keep things running smoothly, or players dozing off on the couch waiting for their Adept-AR-Decker to get into a rating 8 security host, trying over and over and over and over while my eyes roll so hard, Earth's axis shifts.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-01-19/1257:33>
...or players dozing off on the couch waiting for their Adept-AR-Decker to get into a rating 8 security host...

Yeah, I'm excited at the promise/possibility that magic won't be the best way to do everything anymore.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Cubby on <05-01-19/1302:22>
Please check out the official announcement here:

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29147.0
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Mirikon on <05-01-19/1321:21>
Rumors are circulating that 6th edition is in development.
They are wrong.
*whistles innocently*
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: DarkLloyd on <05-01-19/1442:45>
Rumors are circulating that 6th edition is in development.
They are wrong.
*whistles innocently*
Lol!!
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shadowjack on <05-01-19/1457:13>
Rumors are circulating that 6th edition is in development.
They are wrong.
*whistles innocently*

You know, I ran across that post earlier but decided to let it slide :P I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted to mention it though.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-01-19/2105:56>
Looks like Pegasus is right up to speed:

(http://www.shadowrun5.de/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_SR6_-_Ab_Oktober_2019_und_Cover2D3D_-_Homepage_-_Logo_2a612bc5ce.png)

Love the cover and the art...hoping it’s the same from CGL
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <05-01-19/2153:55>
Why podcasts? I havenīt had the time to sit down for more than an hour to browse through the chit chat to get some answers.

Abolishment of all situation-modifiers? Is that right?
But youīre still doing them somehow via edge. Whatīs the point then?

I understand it replenishes at the start of a `scene`. And getting an advantage over your opponent nets you more edge, as the scene progresses.

The nebulous term `scene` is rather off-putting, to start with. But this sounds like you are exchanging one set of tables you have to check all the time (situation modifiers and compensation) with another set of tables. (this is `an advantage` in game terms and nets +X edge)

I donīt see how that is supposed to speed up gameplay. Or are they suggesting to just argue at the table over what constitutes `an advantage`? That would be even worse.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Beta on <05-01-19/2159:56>
That one is less 'speed up play' and more 'less to track' as I understood it.  So on each action you don't go have to remember the modifiers for dim light, friends in melee, and charging.  You just take advantage of that to add to your edge once in the scene (or your opponent does) and then it is accounted for, and you don't look at it again.  Whether it improves things, we'll all have to wait to try it and see I guess.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <05-01-19/2206:10>
So, you take `advantage` of having a friend in melee and then use the edge it netted you to shoot at someone completely different 12 seconds later in a situation that has nothing to do with it?

Is that the idea?

I donīt even know what to say.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-01-19/2230:56>
So, you take `advantage` of having a friend in melee and then use the edge it netted you to shoot at someone completely different 12 seconds later in a situation that has nothing to do with it?

Is that the idea?

I donīt even know what to say.

We don't know exactly how it'll work yet, but yes that sounds like the general idea as far as I know.  And contrary to what you're implying, it sounds like it makes perfect sense to me.  Me and my friend two on one opponent, then the remaining opponent is at a decided disadvantage to the pair of us.  Even if we haven't killed the flanked opponent yet, if we've put him on his heels we have the tactical initiative over both him and his buddy.  Isolating and surrounding one opponent would be represented in 5E by memorizing, looking up, or simply inventing some dice pool modifier.  The new edition looks like such things will be represented by getting Edge, which can be used to your own advantage in various ways.

In theory it could work.  I'm going to give it a look before judging whether it actually does work or not.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-02-19/1414:43>
Looks like the first piece of fiction is out:

The Frame Job, Part 1 (https://www.drivethrufiction.com/m/product/274559)
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ixal on <05-02-19/1858:14>
Having read through the podcast summary I am not sure I like the new Edge and that you can earn it by being a better shot than the enemy (or even because you are sitting in very good cover, earning edge when someone shoots you) and then being able to spend it on something completely different like healing damage.....
Edge seems too much of a magical "do it all" currency to me. And I am not even sure it will reduce tracking at all. Considering how important it is and that it can be gained in combat the GM now has to track a ever shifting edge number for all NPCs.
It can also create some weird situations were a character is better of not doing anything than try something desperate, like the Face shooting with his light pistol at an enemy, as that will give the enemy Edge while if the Face did nothing the enemy would not get more powerful. Not really immersive in my eyes. And I really hope people cant just Edge through everything.

Also, all gear available at character creation? Where is the sense of progression when you can have everything right from the start?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <05-05-19/1245:59>
Having read through the podcast summary I am not sure I like the new Edge and that you can earn it by being a better shot than the enemy (or even because you are sitting in very good cover, earning edge when someone shoots you) and then being able to spend it on something completely different like healing damage.....
Edge seems too much of a magical "do it all" currency to me. And I am not even sure it will reduce tracking at all. Considering how important it is and that it can be gained in combat the GM now has to track a ever shifting edge number for all NPCs.
It can also create some weird situations were a character is better of not doing anything than try something desperate, like the Face shooting with his light pistol at an enemy, as that will give the enemy Edge while if the Face did nothing the enemy would not get more powerful. Not really immersive in my eyes. And I really hope people cant just Edge through everything.

Also, all gear available at character creation? Where is the sense of progression when you can have everything right from the start?

Yeah, I have the same questions about it. I didn't decide that I like it or not, so far and I won't until I've seen it in its entirety, but I'm a bit wary because of the same reasons.

Also, I'm not sure I understand how this whole "no modifiers, but gaining edge" thing will play out at the end? Like, okay, I'm in cover, the enemy shoots at me, I'm gaining edge. Does that mean that basicaly the difficulty of tasks never changes, regardless of circumstances (ie. it's equally hard to shoot at someone in the open as behind a cover), you will just get a currency for later use, if you have an advantage? That's... I think I wouldn't like that. Yeh, not immersive and too meta for me.

Now, if the edge gained from the advantage is usable right there at the moment ( I could spend the edge gained for cover instantly for a better defense roll, or whatnot), that's different, that could work out just fine.

Also, I'd agree, it doesn't really seem to be less work to use than modifiers, just different and maybe more "interesting" and "fun", because you'll get a currency you could spend on stunts and stuff, not just plain modifiers. I can see that, but I don't think it's easier to use, overall.

To be honest, I think it's a question with no answer, or, rather, a Quest for the Holy Grail for developers: "How to represent situational stuff in a game, without too much math and floating modifiers?" Some games, like D&D 5e went simplistic, which is fine, but not everyne likes that level of simplification. Others went like storygames, where it's about "narrative complications" and stuff which is also fine, but a totally different approach to gaming. Others made everything into conditions and such, which aren't really simpler, but you can give them out in neat cards, so, perhaps more concise. This new edge system is another attempt at replacing floating modifiers with somethig easier to use and more "fun" and it might work, but I'm not sure about it at this point.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-05-19/1840:48>
You might want to check out this post (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29135.msg514941#msg514941)...great link to a Google Doc that is attempting to summarize all that has been "gleaned".
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <05-06-19/1207:08>
Many thanks, I appreciate it!

 Though, it doesn't answer the question if Edge will be usable reflexively, to reflect the role of modifiers properly, but I don1t see a reason why many edge effects couldn't be like that, from the list, so I guess it'll be okay.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AJCarrington on <05-06-19/1302:14>
Hopefully we’ll learn more in the coming weeks as we get more in-play examples and summaries/reviews from those who have marketing copies.

Of course, my assumption is that the QSR will be substantially the same as CRB.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: AnotherUser on <05-06-19/1506:16>
We don't know exactly how it'll work yet, but yes that sounds like the general idea as far as I know.  And contrary to what you're implying, it sounds like it makes perfect sense to me. ...

If you can rationalize the game mechanic like this for yourself thatīs good. I admit I am struggling with it.

I am not even too much bothered by its influence on balancing or by arguments like `better do nothing than try difficult shots` or `goon-farming is OPī. My main problem is how to picture a scene.

Say you are hacking an important device during combat. By what we know, it actually helps if you are being shot at, as long as the gun isnīt too big and you are armoured/in cover. The idea is weirding me out.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-06-19/1640:16>
What works for me is an assumption that everything in an encounter is relevant to everything else in that encounter.

Take the darkness and low light vision example: you're fighting a ganger in a dark alley and you have low light while he doesn't.  You get an edge to represent that.

Now say you defeat that ganger without having spent that edge.  You still have it, and then when his buddy steps in who also has low light vision, you don't have an advantage but you still have the edge that you gained before.

This still makes perfect sense to me because ganger 2 just saw you dispatch his buddy without breaking a sweat (or spending an edge in meta terms).  While that psychological advantage doesn't provide you yet another edge point, it explains why you got to keep the unspent edge from the first ganger.

Of course, we were told in one of those streams that edge resets at the start of a new combat.  So if the 2nd ganger counts as a "new" combat, then sure you don't keep that edge.  But if it was the same combat? Null persp to carry it over to the new opponent.

Likewise for hacking stuff. One opponent sees his ware or device start to sizzle.. his distraction at that could easily be the in-universe explanation for why his gunfire is negatively impacted towards you because you OOCly spent an edge gained from hacking on defending against his attack.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <05-06-19/1715:20>
I kind of see it as adrenaline or being in the zone. There is something to it where people can just get on a roll. That being said until I see what still gives modifiers and what edge fully does it’s hard to judge. I’m not sure 1 edge to your target really represents firing blind as an example.
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <05-06-19/2212:25>
What works for me is an assumption that everything in an encounter is relevant to everything else in that encounter.

Take the darkness and low light vision example: you're fighting a ganger in a dark alley and you have low light while he doesn't.  You get an edge to represent that.

Now say you defeat that ganger without having spent that edge.  You still have it, and then when his buddy steps in who also has low light vision, you don't have an advantage but you still have the edge that you gained before.

This still makes perfect sense to me because ganger 2 just saw you dispatch his buddy without breaking a sweat (or spending an edge in meta terms).  While that psychological advantage doesn't provide you yet another edge point, it explains why you got to keep the unspent edge from the first ganger.
So what happens when instead of another ganger, a cyberzombie with low light vision who's been using the gang as cover steps in? He won't be intimidated, so how do you retain the edge?
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-06-19/2228:24>
Or if it's a drone that's backing up the ganger, it won't be intimidated either, right?

So if one specific rationale doesn't make sense, then obviously you don't use it in that circumstance.  Maybe instead of being intimidated, the opposition is instead being overly cautions in light of your demonstrated prowess.  Maybe it's you who's benefiting from uplifted morale rather than them who are demoralized.

Maybe a sports analogy might work?

If your football team demonstrates a powerful running attack, the defense stacks the line to do something about it.  You haven't yet demonstrated a devastating passing attack, but because they're shifting defense to compensate for your success on the ground now you have wide open recievers for a long strike.  Being good at one thing ended up giving you an advantage in another thing.



And again, if the GM doesn't feel like unspent edge should carry over from dispatching the mooks to when the Boss steps into the fray, then it can be a "new" fight and edge resets. No problem anymore.

There will always be ways to describe a cup as half empty.  It's more fun to describe it as half full, imo.

Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: PMárk on <05-07-19/0947:38>
We don't know exactly how it'll work yet, but yes that sounds like the general idea as far as I know.  And contrary to what you're implying, it sounds like it makes perfect sense to me. ...

If you can rationalize the game mechanic like this for yourself thatīs good. I admit I am struggling with it.

I am not even too much bothered by its influence on balancing or by arguments like `better do nothing than try difficult shots` or `goon-farming is OPī. My main problem is how to picture a scene.

Say you are hacking an important device during combat. By what we know, it actually helps if you are being shot at, as long as the gun isnīt too big and you are armoured/in cover. The idea is weirding me out.

Yeah, things like that why I've said situational modifiers is kinda the thing everybody hates, but nobody knows a better answer to represent thse kind of things, if you want to do a more crunchy, sim-based game.

We shall see, how this will turn out. I'm not writing it off, before seeing it in its entirety, but yeah, based on what we know so far, it has these weird situations and problems...
Title: Re: 6th Edition in 2019?
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <05-07-19/1320:20>
The edge system on its own I don’t have a issue with. As it can represent being in the zone, luck whatever.

Replacing modifiers though and which ones is where it may break credulity. As an example me shooting someone in the dark I give them a edge but roll my full pool. Shoot two people I split my pools it’s not just giving them a edge point. And autofire that is not compensated may have a dice pool penalty but crazy long range just reduces the attack power so just effects edge. 

Why dice pool penalties, split pools which are just dice pool penalties disguised in some case and in other cases it’s just a edge.