Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Morg on (15:42:51/01-28-11)

Title: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Morg on (15:42:51/01-28-11)
Also I have found that PCs love to mod their guns within and inch of its life, RAW states that a if and gun is overmoded it would lose some performance. What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below

I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)

Opinions?
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (18:43:51/01-28-11)
Also I have found that PCs love to mod their guns within and inch of its life, RAW states that a if and gun is overmoded it would lose some performance. What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below

I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)

Opinions?
I having carried a weapon similar to the one in the picture below for months at a time. I can tell you from first hand experience that when you have more than 2 attachments to a weapon system you start to lose something not from it's performance, but it's ability to be used by the operator. Personally I noted that my weapon became more cumbersome with each new gadget mounted on it, The whole pounds equals pain saying definitely applies. As far as the negative modifier... I would say it depends on the character's strength and agility to determine if it applies at all.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (19:10:10/01-28-11)
I play paintball and I carry an SP-8, big ole electric hopper filled with wholesome splat--tastic goodness. In addition to that...3-point sling, holo red dot sight, verticle front foregrip, mini-flashlight (I play night games as well), and a video camera (light weight made for extreme sports), add to this my air tank, two paint grenades, and 1,200 additional paintballs in loaders on my vest, handsfree radio, water camelpak...the importance of being in good shape is not lost on me.

I don't buy into modding a firearm will harm its performance...unless you are having an idiot do the work, ultimately the law of diminishing returns is in play.

As far as RAW goes...some rules are more worthy of being discarded than others you get to decide which ones make the cut.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (19:20:57/01-28-11)
I don't buy into modding a firearm will harm its performance...unless you are having an idiot do the work, ultimately the law of diminishing returns is in play.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: savaze on (20:51:30/01-28-11)
That pic above has a lot of the same attachments from different manufacturers! 

I agree that it won't affect the performance... It's way more likely to affect the attachments, like optics, though I've seen up to three optics on an AR and still have operational value while wearing armor like the IBA.  There is a whole new thought process with mounting accessories and using several optics at once, but it's not widely in use yet (two is the limit for immediate use - one on top one mounted on a 45° angle on the away side of the weapon). 

The weapon will become cumbersome with more weight like Morg said.  I've carried and used AR/carbines for prolonged periods as well and carrying a front heavy AR gives you a bit of a quiver in prolonged firefights, but sometimes entry weapons benefit from the added weight (e.g. jamming the barrel into someone with or without a bayonet attached).

Sometimes attachments don't make sense or are just for style-value (http://www.laserlyte.com/Pistol_Bayonet/PB-1/images/PB1-0ss.jpg) you be the judge!
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Kontact on (22:28:47/01-28-11)
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (22:52:58/01-28-11)
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.
But what about external add ons? I mean I get that electronic firing isn't the same as adding an under barrel weight but what about an external smart gun or a gun cam?
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: savaze on (00:52:44/01-29-11)
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.

I'll agree with that to a certain point on internal mods.  There is a limit to how far you can change the guts of weapons based on brand and complexity.  IRL, with AR's, internal mods usually require an upper receiver change to allow the more complex changes.  I still prefer 3rd(e) weapon design over 4th(e), plus there was rules for making new/unique weapons. 

I can see where it could be a balancing issue, but I don't see this edition as being as lethal as the prior editions... Maybe I'm wrong, but I saw a lot more one-hit-kills previously.  I think the lethality of the prior ed's was a concern and unnecessary precautions were taken to prevent it, then it was decided that they hampered it thoroughly so they released War! to amp it up again.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (04:20:48/01-29-11)
I can see where it could be a balancing issue, but I don't see this edition as being as lethal as the prior editions... Maybe I'm wrong, but I saw a lot more one-hit-kills previously.  I think the lethality of the prior ed's was a concern and unnecessary precautions were taken to prevent it, then it was decided that they hampered it thoroughly so they released War! to amp it up again.

Thoughts?
I miss being able to build my own weapons. I have yet to read War to know, but as it stands it feels like things are about fair as far as combat goes, everything from the recoil, to the burst modifiers and how they affect you really make sense to me. the only thing I do know about War! that I really like is that if a grenade from a launcher hits it's target it can explode on contact rather than roll around and possibly get thrown back. (I personally think that rule is crap as the fuse on the standard frag grenade is never longer than 4 seconds.)But I digress...
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (09:07:13/01-29-11)
@Savaze     While I won't try to guess what Rob was intending with 4th ed...I can say from my discussions with Mike Muvilhill, that in 3rd Ed that it was meant to be lethal. In 3rd, the concept (related to me) was that runners are cogs in the machines, deniable and disposable...runners were meant to die. The futility of fighting the system and how it grind up runners was something that was intentionally built into 3rd.

@Teyl_Iliar    I miss the firearm build rules as well. Correct me if I am wrong, IRL a 40mic fired from a M203 arms after traveling a set distance arms itself after which it detonates on impact...there is no throwing the grenade back.

Balance can be an issue if you start getting carried away mods today...I would expect in the future though that the items will be smaller and lighterweight. The video camera on my SP 8 is very lightweight and smaller than the tube for a roll of toilet paper, records to a SD card...damn cool IMHO!!!

Interesting side note...when 3rd came out with mounting rules it was top, bottom or barrel...my SP 8 comes with three tactical rails on the foregrip and one on the rear receiver.

Edit: bold was added.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Mäx on (10:37:32/01-29-11)
What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below
I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)
Opinions?
Doesn't make much sense, pretty much all of the modifications are changes to the internal parts of the gun and as such wouldn't result in to somethink stupid like the pictured weapon(which isn't over modded, but over accessorised).
And neither can external accessories result into that as there's a limit of 1 accessory per slot.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (10:48:56/01-29-11)
@Teyl_Iliar    I miss the firearm build rules as well. Correct me if I am wrong, IRL a 40mic fired from a M203 arms after traveling a set distance after which it detonates on impact...there is no throwing the grenade back.
On several occasions while playing with my usual group our GM as treated grenades launched from a weapon platform as "return to senders." As we could not find text in the books to state otherwise until he read it in war. But I'm mostly disagreeing with the rule that a defender can/would pick up a live grenade and throw it back at all. Even if a combat turn is 3 seconds, the time it takes for a grenade to be thrown from A to B is close to that amount of time. The time to throw it back at someone is definitely longer. But I don't want to debate that point here necessarily as I'm sure there is another place in the forum for that.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (11:54:05/01-29-11)
Grenades have been thrown back to the original thrower IRL.  The term "cooking" a grenade means allowing a second or so for the fuse to burn down a bit until releasing the grenade.  This helps prevent the target(s) from doing just that.

Of course, in SR, there are airburst grenades.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Kontact on (14:58:30/01-29-11)
But what about external add ons? I mean I get that electronic firing isn't the same as adding an under barrel weight but what about an external smart gun or a gun cam?

Like Max said, there's three potential accessory slots, Top, under and barrel.  Plenty of guns aren't even allowed to mount all 3.  I mostly meant it's abstracted for balance across gun type rather than as a means of balancing combat.  IOW, a hold-out pistol can take just as many modifications as a ship's laser.

One question that bears investigation is how accessories should affect concealability.
After all, if a Gas Vent can be taken as a barrel mount or a mod for the same cost and with the same effect, who would bother with the internal version?
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (17:30:33/01-29-11)
One question that bears investigation is how accessories should affect concealability.
After all, if a Gas Vent can be taken as a barrel mount or a mod for the same cost and with the same effect, who would bother with the internal version?
First off i can agree with the statement about concealability. As for the external vs internal modifcations, if you have an integral gas vent or scilencer that's something that you can always have on that weapon, but you can't mount an external version of both at the same time. thusly, (Unless i've read something wrong or missed it completely...  :( that applies to everything I say btw...) you can have your recoil compensation, and -4 to perception tests too! I can see keeping somethings external because they are cheaper that way. Example an external smartgun system = 400 nuyen, Internal smartgun = the cost of the weapon. Depending on the weapon, that could be over a few thousand nuyen instead. it's like a budget option. in some cases, or in others just an extra way to get that last little piece on their weapon for that mission.  :-\
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Mäx on (17:42:34/01-29-11)
you can have your recoil compensation, and -4 to perception tests too!
Yep, but you can only use one of them at a time, either you have recoil compensation or - to perception, not both in the same time.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (17:43:43/01-29-11)
Yep, but you can only use one of them at a time, either you have recoil compensation or - to perception, not both in the same time.
True, but you can still have them  ;D
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (18:39:06/01-29-11)
Grenades have been thrown back to the original thrower IRL.

True, thrown grenades...but I have never heard of a 40mic being 'tossed' back. There is a difference between thrown grenades and any of the grenades that are launched...like the M203.

Ok...I will shut up about grenades now.  ;D
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: savaze on (21:52:55/01-29-11)
@ Teyl_Iliar - I miss building my own guns as well.

@ John Schmidt - Is the SP8 the paintball version of the XM8?  I've got an AR15 covered in rails: one the top that runs the length of most of the rifle, three others on the handguard, and two at 45° from the top towards the rear of the receiver, for extra optics.  I've seen handguards with 6 rails, but it's more for flexibility than becoming obnoxious.

@ The_Gun_Nut & Teyl_Iliar - The actual fuse on the grenade the US uses (M67) is set for 3-5 seconds.  I saw a training grenade (M69) go off on a guy trying to "cook it off" because he thought it was 4 seconds... It's still unlikely that someone can realize that a grenade is thrown at them, then recover it, and finally return to sender.


One question that bears investigation is how accessories should affect concealability.
After all, if a Gas Vent can be taken as a barrel mount or a mod for the same cost and with the same effect, who would bother with the internal version?
First off i can agree with the statement about concealability. As for the external vs internal modifcations, if you have an integral gas vent or scilencer that's something that you can always have on that weapon, but you can't mount an external version of both at the same time. thusly, (Unless i've read something wrong or missed it completely...  :( that applies to everything I say btw...) you can have your recoil compensation, and -4 to perception tests too! I can see keeping somethings external because they are cheaper that way. Example an external smartgun system = 400 nuyen, Internal smartgun = the cost of the weapon. Depending on the weapon, that could be over a few thousand nuyen instead. it's like a budget option. in some cases, or in others just an extra way to get that last little piece on their weapon for that mission.  :-\
IRL, the only way that can work is with an internal mod making the rounds become subsonic or lose A LOT of velocity and then put on the equivalent of SR gas vent externally.  Last I remember those two attachments weren't compatible.

@ a lot of peeps - Projectile grenades, like those used in the M203 and Mk19 (not the same round) arm between 18 to 30 meters after firing and explode on contact.  There are the airburst variety that can also be armor piecing (meant to be fired through reinforced barriers and then explode).
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (23:53:01/01-29-11)
The SP8 is the paintball version of the XM8...unfortunately Smart Parts (the manufacturer) went under last year. I toured their facility when I was taking a course on servicing their markers, very impressive the machining capabilities.

One of the reasons I think that people might be under the impression that modifying firearms will reduce the reliability/performance is because of after market car mods, which can do just that. Modern firearms are incredibly rugged...Mythbusters proved that!  ;D

Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on (00:53:52/01-30-11)
@ The_Gun_Nut & Teyl_Iliar - The actual fuse on the grenade the US uses (M67) is set for 3-5 seconds.  I saw a training grenade (M69) go off on a guy trying to "cook it off" because he thought it was 4 seconds... It's still unlikely that someone can realize that a grenade is thrown at them, then recover it, and finally return to sender.
I realize this is what the the specs might say but I've had plenty of hands on experience with the M67 I stating that while that might be what the manual says, that is not always what happens. (disagree all you like, I'm stating my from my personal experience,  that is my only point.)


@ a lot of peeps - Projectile grenades, like those used in the M203 and Mk19 (not the same round) arm between 18 to 30 meters after firing and explode on contact.  There are the airburst variety that can also be armor piecing (meant to be fired through reinforced barriers and then explode).
I also realize this, the only reason this even came up is because of this,
the only thing I do know about War! that I really like is that if a grenade from a launcher hits it's target it can explode on contact rather than roll around and possibly get thrown back.
which i guess needs some back story... During a previous campaign our GM said since we couldn't find a rule in the core book saying they behaved like actual 203 rounds. So...... He had us roll those grenades as normal grenades even though they where launched from a mounted grenade launcher.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: savaze on (05:09:05/01-30-11)
I realize this is what the the specs might say but I've had plenty of hands on experience with the M67 I stating that while that might be what the manual says, that is not always what happens. (disagree all you like, I'm stating my from my personal experience,  that is my only point.)
No worries I was a pilot in the Army (WO1 Retired), so my experience comes more so from heavier weapons and standard sidearms (and my experience with the police didn't involve grenades).  As a side note the M67 manual say the fuse is between 3-15 seconds, but practical experience says it's between 3-5 (that's the numbers from my brother - Infantry 10th mountain).
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Morg on (07:09:58/02-02-11)
To clarify at the beginning of the post I was speaking about overmod

so to restate what do you think about automaticly including a -1 to - 3 to socals similar to the pluses from mods like Custom Look and Pimped
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: topcat on (08:32:25/02-02-11)
To clarify at the beginning of the post I was speaking about overmod

so to restate what do you think about automaticly including a -1 to - 3 to socals similar to the pluses from mods like Custom Look and Pimped

I applaud your attempt to rerail your own thread!

That said, I think it's fine to apply some sort of social mod (positive or negative) based on the audience and circumstance.  Someone who doesn't have a gun professional's frame of reference might be awed or intimidated.  Someone a bit more gun-savvy might fall over laughing or even just walk away, refusing to deal with the character.  A 10yr old action cartoon fan might view it differently than a ganger and the ganger might view it differently than a professional merc.

The key thing to remember is that a lot of mods in SR wouldn't add significant visual changes and many of those that do probably wouldn't be quite as large or heavy as their modern-day equivalents.  So I would try to limit the modifier based on visible factors.

Outside of that, never forget that overmods are up to GM approval and limits.  Sometimes, that means losing one item to add another.  Other times, that might mean a strength minimum to use the weapon without incurring penalties.  Or it might mean nothing at all.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Mäx on (08:39:06/02-02-11)
To clarify at the beginning of the post I was speaking about overmod
Over modding doesn't really make a difference, you still aren't gonna end up with anythink looking like that stupidly over accessoried rifle in your image.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: KarmaInferno on (10:22:47/02-02-11)
You can't get that pictured rifle in SR for the simple reason that there's no rules for adding extra rails onto guns.

Nearly all the Modifications are internal, and there's only three Accessory slots.




-k
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: Kontact on (19:29:04/02-02-11)
If you think it's ridiculous, why are you letting your players overmod?
I certainly wouldn't without a massive amount of justification.

Hell, lots of GMs encourage players to strip and ditch their guns every time they have to fire them, lest they be used to connect them to a crime (or as material links, which is not really by the ritual magic rules anyway.)  Personally, I think there's too much other evidence to worry about such that, if the cops show up at your door, you're already on the fast track to hurtsville.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (03:57:08/02-03-11)
One evening I was sitting behind the GM screen and a player told me that I had to allow him to do X because it was in the rules. I replied that I could in fact allow him to do X but that my NPC's would demand to be allowed to do X and probably Y and Z as well. I then showed him the stack of fully stat-ed NPC's (on 8x5 index cards) that I had ready to go. He looked at the stack and then at me grinning behind the GM screen at him and then said that perhaps he could live without having X included in the game. The game proceeded without a further ado.

There is a point in any game where the GM has to say "No". Don't let anyone beat you over the head with the RAW...just say that you aren't going to let the RAW get in the way of having fun!  :D
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: CanRay on (23:56:44/02-22-11)
Style over substance is always important to me.  I know what firearms, and most mods, look like, and I style them to the character.  Usually, however, I'll have one "Tactical" weapon that only cares about performance over anything else.  "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

Also, from what I've heard, the Launched Grenades arm themselves by an internal counter that counts the rotations the grenade makes as it flies.  I heard about a REMF in Vietnam that got his hands on a "Dud" 40mm Grenade that he threw into his desk and forgot about.  Every time he opened and closed that drawer, it would roll back and forth, until, one day, he slammed it in anger...

Launched grenades are impact detonation, so can't be thrown back.  Also, from what I've heard, it's actually hard to "Cook" a grenade as the timers aren't exactly precise.  "A Five Second Fuse will burn down in Three Seconds" is the phrase I remember hearing.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: John Schmidt on (15:50:21/03-07-11)
CanRay, everyone has their own style of play I don't pretend that one is better than the other so as long as you are playing...more power to ya!  ;)

I have heard a theme and variation on the 40mic story, Afghanistan, terrorist, sitting around a campfire tossing the grenade back and forth. Some how I would believe that the arming sequence would involve the initial firing of the grenade but accidents do happen. Moral of the stories...don't play with stuff that goes boom.
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: CanRay on (18:02:06/03-07-11)
Thanks.  I don't claim that any way is better than any other either, but I have a strong dislike for people that only go after numbers to try and "Break" a game, like they would, say, a video game and finding glitches.

But, I know that's me.

BTW, the Dud 40mm from the Vietnam story was fired, and just dropped from the launcher barrel.  This happens sometimes.  I saw a video of a Canadian Anti-Tank unit that had it happen with their missile launcher during a training session, when I was in College.  Everyone in my class was laughing, while my reaction was similar to the soldiers, "OH F***!!!"
Title: Re: Whats in a Firearm?
Post by: The Seven on (23:07:44/03-21-11)
Where's the <name> option?