Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: kainite311 on (18:35:17/06-04-18)

Title: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: kainite311 on (18:35:17/06-04-18)
Can a drone assist a player or NPC by using a teamwork test? So long as it has the proper autosoft (skill) that is required in a normal teamwork test and observing the limits that a teamwork test has (skill limit of dice added)?

For instance, teamwork test shooting at someone using targeting autosoft?
Perception test using clearsoft?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:50:48/06-04-18)
No reason it can't.

IMO a Rigger can and should have some drones with articulated arms and appropriate repair softs to assist on Technical tasks.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Xenon on (19:27:07/06-04-18)
I know you can use a teamwork test of sorts for melee combat (it is well described in the core book), but a teamwork test for ranged combat......?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: kainite311 on (19:34:36/06-04-18)
Actually I as thinking for non riggers. A street sam using using a aerial drone to help against "good cover" and such. The mage or techno without cyberware and good gun skills. Helping anyone out on a perception check. The small drones are cheap enough, and don't take much 'action economy' or resources to use.

I know you can use a teamwork test of sorts for melee combat (it is well described in the core book), but a teamwork test for ranged combat......?
I haven't been able to find a rule against it...
So a spotter can't help a sniper?
What about maybe a tactical or other type of situational teamwork type bonus...
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (20:26:08/06-04-18)
If the rigger jumped in to said drone could for sure.

But a straight dog brain drone, not out of the box. I don't see a reason why you couldn't program that sort of behavior, but I'm not sure how you would do it within the system. If we can teach a dog to point at a squirrel, we can teach a drone to light up a target.

Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: kainite311 on (20:34:13/06-04-18)
What if the squirrels have really big teeth and bloodshot eyes?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Sphinx on (20:36:26/06-04-18)
If we can teach a dog to point at a squirrel, we can teach a drone to light up a target.

This is my favorite thing today.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (22:02:10/06-04-18)
What if the squirrels have really big teeth and bloodshot eyes?

Well you better not miss then.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (00:30:40/06-05-18)
Can a drone assist a player or NPC by using a teamwork test? So long as it has the proper autosoft (skill) that is required in a normal teamwork test and observing the limits that a teamwork test has (skill limit of dice added)?

For instance, teamwork test shooting at someone using targeting autosoft?
Perception test using clearsoft?
Teamwork shooting? O_O I know about Swarms, and Suppressive Fire, but Teamwork shooting? O        O
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Xenon on (01:34:00/06-05-18)
I haven't been able to find a rule against it...
You need to find a rule that allows it. Not the other way around.

The book have a lot of text describing (and thus allowing) a version of Teamwork for melee attacks. Not a single row describing (or thus allowing) teamwork for ranged attacks.

I am not saying I am totally against the idea of a spotter helping a sniper (but I would say that the Smartgun/Smartlink changed that by now), just that I don't think it is supported out of the box. If you want to allow it I think you would have to house rule it. At least for now.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (15:38:40/06-05-18)
We have Tac-Nets and sprites diagnostic anything and everything that can rub two electrons together.
So i don't think concept is weird or anything so I am totally sure it's possible, just need some kind of autosoft programmed for cooperation.
How to make that i'm not sure, in the short term a house rule in long term pursue a ruling on how to make it work.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (15:45:35/06-05-18)
I don't know that another autosoft is necessary... any number of drones can already cooperatively share 1 single appropriate Autosoft running on the RCC.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (16:26:16/06-05-18)
Yeah, just make sure to focus on 1 or 2 Drone Types and a good RCC can easily handle streaming their software. =) 2 types is pushing it though, then you already need to give up some Autosofts.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Redwulfe on (16:59:49/06-05-18)
Can't resist.

Little buddy
Little buddy
Wherever I go he goes.
Little buddy and Me!!

In all serious though I find the Little buddy to be one of the better skill drones for many applications
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (20:34:09/06-05-18)
I don't know that another autosoft is necessary... any number of drones can already cooperatively share 1 single appropriate Autosoft running on the RCC.

I'm not talking about drones cooperating with drones, I'm talking about them cooperating with people.
Maybe something else is easier but autosoft seems like the most direct way to pin the issue down, otherwise how do you know what to roll?
Pilot rating? The Team work gadget add on?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (20:38:02/06-05-18)
Why would drones assisting people be rules-mechanically be any different than drones assisting other drones?  Or for that matter why would it be any different for drones to assist people than people assisting people?

Attribute+Skill.  That's what you roll.  In the case of drones, the Pilot rating is the attribute and Autosoft is the skill rating.  What's complicating things?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Cabral on (23:05:47/06-05-18)
I haven't been able to find a rule against it...
You need to find a rule that allows it. Not the other way around.
Not exactly, teamwork tests are defined as attribute + skill.
Drones use Pilot for attribute and autosofts for skill, explicitly.
I could not find what they use all of the physical attributes.
It is also not clear if teamwork tests require the actual skill and attributes or if the drone's substitutes suffice.

As it stands, I lean towards allowing it, but it is very much up to GM interpretation.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: PiXeL01 on (23:31:32/06-05-18)
Drones use pilot for all actions, mental or physical. Limitís all that changes.
Gunnery is pilot + targeting soft
Stealth is Pilot + stealth soft
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (01:33:34/06-06-18)
Why would drones assisting people be rules-mechanically be any different than drones assisting other drones?  Or for that matter why would it be any different for drones to assist people than people assisting people?

A Drone that is under the control of the same RCC is a very different thing then a drone hanging out next to some Sam.
It's a question of complexity and sophistication in strategy. RCC controlled drones are in effect a piece of the same system. While a drone and some random street sam are totally different things. The drone has no basis for predicting or interpreting the action of the Sam, beyond a very basic level. Where drone from the same RCC can be said to aware of each and the over all strategy and in effect speak the same language. If you want to cooperating with something to the point where a team work test is possible both drone and sam need to both on the same page, and able to effectively communicate, at-least within the frame work of the shared action. Yeah it's wordy answer but it's fairly involved. Thus imo you need ether it's own skillsoft or some of the piece of hardware to do that coordination. (A tac-net, some other kind coordination gadget, the SmartGun II system used to talk about doing something kinda like this, but that langauge fell off that tech editions ago. Regardless of that fact that the current smartgun should many times smarter then a system that predates it by atleast a decade. 


Attribute+Skill.  That's what you roll.  In the case of drones, the Pilot rating is the attribute and Autosoft is the skill rating.  What's complicating things?

You illustrated my skillsoft point pretty perfectly here.

Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Cabral on (13:57:34/06-06-18)
Drones use pilot for all actions, mental or physical. Limitís all that changes.
Gunnery is pilot + targeting soft
Stealth is Pilot + stealth soft
Officially, depending on where you look, pilot substitutes for mental attributes or mental attributes and reaction. However, every other reference to an attribute + skill test I have seen where drones are explicitly called out, the test is pilot + autosoft.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (10:47:59/06-07-18)
Why would drones assisting people be rules-mechanically be any different than drones assisting other drones?  Or for that matter why would it be any different for drones to assist people than people assisting people?

A Drone that is under the control of the same RCC is a very different thing then a drone hanging out next to some Sam.
It's a question of complexity and sophistication in strategy. RCC controlled drones are in effect a piece of the same system. While a drone and some random street sam are totally different things. The drone has no basis for predicting or interpreting the action of the Sam, beyond a very basic level. Where drone from the same RCC can be said to aware of each and the over all strategy and in effect speak the same language. If you want to cooperating with something to the point where a team work test is possible both drone and sam need to both on the same page, and able to effectively communicate, at-least within the frame work of the shared action. Yeah it's wordy answer but it's fairly involved. Thus imo you need ether it's own skillsoft or some of the piece of hardware to do that coordination. (A tac-net, some other kind coordination gadget, the SmartGun II system used to talk about doing something kinda like this, but that langauge fell off that tech editions ago. Regardless of that fact that the current smartgun should many times smarter then a system that predates it by atleast a decade. 

While there's room to perhaps make that synthesis expounded out from the limited fluff we have in SR5 and R5 regarding the nature of drone "dog brains" and the even more limited info we have about the implications of being RCC linked, it's depending on some unsupported assumptions.

Why is a Drone unable to reasonably anticipate the actions of a Sammie (presumably one he's assisting)?  To rebut this assertion: The drone "dog brains" are absolutely able to (potentially) anticipate/interpret intent of a meatbody when presented with a situation that its explicit instructions didn't cover or are conflicting (SR5 pg 269)

You also seem to be implying that two drones can't assist each other if they're not linked through the same RCC.  To rebut:  There's no basis I'm aware of given anywhere for industrial drones needing to be hive-mind-linked in order to assist each other on construction/industrial projects.  In fact consider the example of the MCT Kechiku-Kikai industrial drones being explicitly un-linked to one another and only able to get updates to their assigned tasks by reporting in to hard dock with a computer at their charging stations.  Surely a dozen of these drones are rules-mechanically able to assist one another on industrial scale extended tasks despite the lack of a RCC-like "hive mind".

Communication barrier prevents working with metahumans effectively.  Not gonna agree with you on this premise either.  Using the lore/rules from R5, Drones know up to two metahuman languages (the predominant language in the market in which it was sold, and the language of its manufacturing megacorp).  We also know that you can "control" a drone simply by giving it vocal orders even without going through a Commlink or RCC.  It ain't shadowrun but that scene in Dredd is exactly how it's described to work.  (Judge Dredd dismounting to chase perps: "Bike! Initiate Crowd Control."  Bike: "Acknowledged.  Citizens: Interfering with a crime scene carries a mandatory sentence in the Iso-Cubes...")

Quote from: Marcus
Attribute+Skill.  That's what you roll.  In the case of drones, the Pilot rating is the attribute and Autosoft is the skill rating.  What's complicating things?

You illustrated my skillsoft point pretty perfectly here.

We were both sloppy with terminology here.  If a Drone is to assist with say an Automotive Mechanic extended skill test, it's using neither an Autosoft nor a Skillsoft.  And since it's a drone rather than a true A.I. it doesn't natively have the Automotive Mechanic skill either. The proper term/piece of software is Skillset (R5, pg 127).  There are only a finite number of skills that can have Skillsets, but Automotive Mechanics is on that list.  So to correct my quoted statement:

"Attribute+Skill.  That's what you roll.  In the case of drones, the Pilot rating is the attribute and Skillset is the skill rating."


So my larger point of the rebuttal here:  There's nothing I've found saying Drones are excluded by the Teamwork Test rules (SR5 pg 49).  They shouldn't need to be explicitly included as elves aren't, dwarves aren't, spirits aren't, and so on.

Interesting point:  I looked up the Agent rules, as they're pretty analogous to drone Pilots, as to whether it says anywhere whether they explicitly can or cannot engage in teamwork tests with their Deckers.  It doesn't, and in fact punts to the Pilot rules as saying "they're similar".  So clearly they either both can or both can't.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (18:17:29/06-07-18)
What the game tells about the drone dog brain are programmed to handle fuzzy logic. Correctly interpreting some random street sam's action leading into a tactical roll requires more then just fuzzy logic. The first real instances of Drone Net testing, small boat swarms being conducted by the navy shows use pretty clearly you need to have networked groups if you want to achieve tactical objectives. That technology is what will become RCC, if such a thing ever does actually come into existence. 

You can build simple drone groups that respond to basic sets of commands and so long as what you aren't doing something more complicated then follow the leader it can work. So the Short answer is we know because the have told use the limitations of the technology, and nothing any fluff or rule has said they are strong examples of machine learning. Which means until you program technology with a capability then it doesn't posses that capability.

You should, know drone technologies aren't new we had radio controlled drones that could out fly, pilot, event combat Pilots for decades, the reason they could in tests reliably out fly them is that didn't have human limitations. Drones aren't sensitive to G-forces, and lack most of the limitations of human body. We just haven't had perceptron based neural networks that were sophisticated enough to allow drones outside direct human control until quite recently.

If you wanna put a sprite into a drone and have it make teams works tests I'm pretty ok with the idea. But if you want to have drone dog brains do it, I'm not sold.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (18:41:23/06-07-18)
.. But if you want to have drone dog brains do it, I'm not sold.

Way I see it the fluff already tells us that drones already assist surgeons on medical tests, drones already assist each other to clear out debris from a construction site, and etc.  If that's not participating in a Teamwork test then nothing is.  If you want to say drones can't participate in teamwork tests just because you don't think they should, that's fine.  There's no rules basis in saying that is what I'm arguing.

The Teamwork rules could be read to apply only to Shadowrunners if you want to be strictly RAW, but I don't think anyone is prepared to agree that NPC metahumans can't use Teamwork rules so let's set that aside.  Barring that strict RAW, there's no limitation on who or what may participate in a Teamwork test.  Ergo since a Drone isn't barred, it's allowed.  So is a Dog for that matter.  Or are you arguing that a biological dog is unable to assist its handler with a Tracking test?  And if not, why is a biological dog brain allowed to do a teamwork test but not a digitial (and potentially much more intelligent) dog brain?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (00:08:36/06-08-18)

Way I see it the fluff already tells us that drones already assist surgeons on medical tests, drones already assist each other to clear out debris from a construction site, and etc.  If that's not participating in a Teamwork test then nothing is.  If you want to say drones can't participate in teamwork tests just because you don't think they should, that's fine.  There's no rules basis in saying that is what I'm arguing.

The Teamwork rules could be read to apply only to Shadowrunners if you want to be strictly RAW, but I don't think anyone is prepared to agree that NPC metahumans can't use Teamwork rules so let's set that aside.  Barring that strict RAW, there's no limitation on who or what may participate in a Teamwork test.  Ergo since a Drone isn't barred, it's allowed.  So is a Dog for that matter.  Or are you arguing that a biological dog is unable to assist its handler with a Tracking test?  And if not, why is a biological dog brain allowed to do a teamwork test but not a digitial (and potentially much more intelligent) dog brain?


LOL ok SSDR, why don't you get on that, you try that and let me know how it works out. You and RAW really just don't seem to connect well man. I don't need the teamwork rules to disallow cockroach's from helping me research advanced mathematics, something are just obvious. If you want to put super smart drones on your table that will help all player with teamworks tests more power too ya. But I think you will find, that you are once again in the vast minority of thinking that should work right out box.

I think a teamwork Autosoft/program is a legit concept, and something that could easily be useful as an add on to lots of tech. I just don't think it can do without it.

Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (00:54:02/06-08-18)

Way I see it the fluff already tells us that drones already assist surgeons on medical tests, drones already assist each other to clear out debris from a construction site, and etc.  If that's not participating in a Teamwork test then nothing is.  If you want to say drones can't participate in teamwork tests just because you don't think they should, that's fine.  There's no rules basis in saying that is what I'm arguing.

The Teamwork rules could be read to apply only to Shadowrunners if you want to be strictly RAW, but I don't think anyone is prepared to agree that NPC metahumans can't use Teamwork rules so let's set that aside.  Barring that strict RAW, there's no limitation on who or what may participate in a Teamwork test.  Ergo since a Drone isn't barred, it's allowed.  So is a Dog for that matter.  Or are you arguing that a biological dog is unable to assist its handler with a Tracking test?  And if not, why is a biological dog brain allowed to do a teamwork test but not a digitial (and potentially much more intelligent) dog brain?


LOL ok SSDR, why don't you get on that, you try that and let me know how it works out. You and RAW really just don't seem to connect well man. I don't need the teamwork rules to disallow cockroach's from helping me research advanced mathematics, something are just obvious. If you want to put super smart drones on your table that will help all player with teamworks tests more power too ya. But I think you will find, that you are once again in the vast minority of thinking that should work right out box.

At least try to be intellectually honest Marcus.  If one were to argue that a cockroach could assist someone on an advanced mathematics teamwork test, one would have to somehow argue that a cockroach knows advanced mathematics.  If the cockroach somehow had both the skill in question AND a non-zero associated mental attribute, then actually yeah the magically smart cockroach could assist. 

But let's keep it to actually plausible scenarios shall we?

Dogs assisting their handlers tracking a fugitive?  Obviously that's possible, just as it's equally obvious the dog simultaneously can not assist his handler on advanced mathmatics.
Medical drones assisting the surgeon performing a medical procedure?  Obviously that's possible.  That's literally why they exist.

Arguing these sorts of things are in fact NOT possible despite the prima facie nature of them being possible puts the onus on you to provide supporting citations.  Not on someone else to disprove your claim.   You tell us why a dog may assist a metahuman but a drone can't.  You tell us why computerized skill knowledge is teamwork compatible when it's a skillsoft on a metahuman's skillwires but not when it's a skillset on a drone.

Now there's nothing wrong with a house rule saying your own invented software is necessary in the same way that a Smartsoft is required for a drone to benefit from a smartlink... but there IS something wrong with saying that's what the rulebook is saying.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (00:59:49/06-08-18)
Oh yeah.  A quotation for just in case you're going to try to argue that *I'm* the one making a crazy claim and therefore have the burden of proof:

Quote from: Rigger 5, EVO Proletarian drone, pg 131-132
They're advanced enough to be trusted with simple work, banging out dents, changing tires, checking the oil, and so on, but they are also handy assistants for harder work, presenting you with tools when you need them, keeping vehicle schematics displayed on their chest screen, and keeping an eye on things when you're beneath an undercarriage.

You're gonna tell us all that doesn't sound like the Proletarian drone is expressly designed for assisting with automotive mechanics?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (02:50:41/06-08-18)

At least try to be intellectually honest Marcus.  If one were to argue that a cockroach could assist someone on an advanced mathematics teamwork test, one would have to somehow argue that a cockroach knows advanced mathematics.  If the cockroach somehow had both the skill in question AND a non-zero associated mental attribute, then actually yeah the magically smart cockroach could assist. 

But let's keep it to actually plausible scenarios shall we?

Dogs assisting their handlers tracking a fugitive?  Obviously that's possible, just as it's equally obvious the dog simultaneously can not assist his handler on advanced mathmatics.
Medical drones assisting the surgeon performing a medical procedure?  Obviously that's possible.  That's literally why they exist.

Arguing these sorts of things are in fact NOT possible despite the prima facie nature of them being possible puts the onus on you to provide supporting citations.  Not on someone else to disprove your claim.   You tell us why a dog may assist a metahuman but a drone can't.  You tell us why computerized skill knowledge is teamwork compatible when it's a skillsoft on a metahuman's skillwires but not when it's a skillset on a drone.

Now there's nothing wrong with a house rule saying your own invented software is necessary in the same way that a Smartsoft is required for a drone to benefit from a smartlink... but there IS something wrong with saying that's what the rulebook is saying.

As to honesty your blank statement was just silly and I'm a big fan of poking holes such silly absolutism.

Sure a doctor directly controlling a drone as a 2nd pair of hands works fine, we have purposed examples of that technology right now. As was discussed in another thread we can mount a Valkyrie pod on a bike.  Nothing in that language that convincing me it's making a team work test. Nothing in the language of Valkyrie pods says it makes team work test does it? It's been a long time sense I read those rules, but I don't recall anything about that.

Dogs are great, they do lots of stuff, and we have literal had a good chunk of human history to breed and teach them do a lot things that are within their natural capacity and even expand that capacity. So I do think we can train dogs to the point when they can make team work tests, seeing eye dogs etc. But unlike drones, dogs have amazing capacities to read humans. Do drones naturally have the ability to sense oncoming seizures in humans? And as I said there are ways to give drones the ability team work tests. (Sprites, Jumping in one).

I just don't think they can do it out of the box without some sort of software. Do you really think that dishonest? I think just it's working with the system.
 
I think I have been very clear in what I said, and I believe it's consistent with RAW, further I think my record on RAW has been better then yours. But we have just arguing in circles for the last couple post, so if you come up with some useful new point let me know. Otherwise I'm done with this.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (12:09:10/06-08-18)

At least try to be intellectually honest Marcus.  If one were to argue that a cockroach could assist someone on an advanced mathematics teamwork test, one would have to somehow argue that a cockroach knows advanced mathematics.  If the cockroach somehow had both the skill in question AND a non-zero associated mental attribute, then actually yeah the magically smart cockroach could assist. 

But let's keep it to actually plausible scenarios shall we?

Dogs assisting their handlers tracking a fugitive?  Obviously that's possible, just as it's equally obvious the dog simultaneously can not assist his handler on advanced mathmatics.
Medical drones assisting the surgeon performing a medical procedure?  Obviously that's possible.  That's literally why they exist.

Arguing these sorts of things are in fact NOT possible despite the prima facie nature of them being possible puts the onus on you to provide supporting citations.  Not on someone else to disprove your claim.   You tell us why a dog may assist a metahuman but a drone can't.  You tell us why computerized skill knowledge is teamwork compatible when it's a skillsoft on a metahuman's skillwires but not when it's a skillset on a drone.

Now there's nothing wrong with a house rule saying your own invented software is necessary in the same way that a Smartsoft is required for a drone to benefit from a smartlink... but there IS something wrong with saying that's what the rulebook is saying.

As to honesty your blank statement was just silly and I'm a big fan of poking holes such silly absolutism.

Well then hopefully you're acknowledging at this point then that you're the only one who brought up the silly idea of something without a skill participating in a teamwork test for that skill.

Quote
Sure a doctor directly controlling a drone as a 2nd pair of hands works fine, we have purposed examples of that technology right now. As was discussed in another thread we can mount a Valkyrie pod on a bike.  Nothing in that language that convincing me it's making a team work test. Nothing in the language of Valkyrie pods says it makes team work test does it? It's been a long time sense I read those rules, but I don't recall anything about that.

Dogs are great, they do lots of stuff, and we have literal had a good chunk of human history to breed and teach them do a lot things that are within their natural capacity and even expand that capacity. So I do think we can train dogs to the point when they can make team work tests, seeing eye dogs etc. But unlike drones, dogs have amazing capacities to read humans. Do drones naturally have the ability to sense oncoming seizures in humans? And as I said there are ways to give drones the ability team work tests. (Sprites, Jumping in one).

Valkryie module rules basically establish them a Rating 6 First Aid Kit with some added specific functionalities, but being in effect a fancy first aid kit gives a reasonable way to figure out how it works if not just set down to do its own thing autonomously without needing to look at teamwork tests (i.e. use the first aid kit rules)

Dogs indeed have 20 to 40 thousand years of selection to be exceptionally well adapted to observing and reacting to humans' cues.  This has nothing to do with the fictional technology of drone "dog brains".  It's fine to argue at your table that a drone does not have a dog's ability to interact with people, but again that's not something the rulebook supports.  What the rulebook says on the matter of a drone's ability to replicate a dog's ability to interact with people is in fact this:

Quote from: SR5 pg 269, Pilot Programs: 3rd paragraph
Pilots have a Rating indicated by the Device Rating
of the vehicle, drone, or other piece of gear theyíre
in. This rating is used in place of any Mental attribute
needed for a test, but it hardly makes up for a metahuman
brain. When faced with something novel or unexpected,
or a complicated command, a Pilot program
must make a Device Rating x 2 Test against a threshold
set by the gamemaster based on how confusing
the situation is. If it fails this test, it blithely continues
doing what it was doing before, or simply stops entirely
and asks for instructions.

A drone is explicitly/expressly/CLEARLY able act not just like a dog with regards to anticipating what its human wants it to do, a high rating pilot program is going to be much better at it than a mundane dog. 

Quote
I just don't think they can do it out of the box without some sort of software. Do you really think that dishonest? I think just it's working with the system.

No, to be clear I don't think it's incorrect to say a drone "should" have yet another demand on its limited program slots to use a program of your invention in order to participate in a teamwork test.  Rule Zero allows for this afterall.   What I think is dishonest to say that the rulebook says this is required.

Look again at the example of the EVO Proletarian.  It's basically that cute robot arm from the Iron Man franchise that Tony Stark built to help him build super suits.  But to discuss the SR realm specifically: it's designed (both in-universe and from a meta sense) to assist with automotive mechanics.  The fluff says this outright (I quoted it upthread) and the rules crunch give it the Automotive Mechanics skillset.  The crunch does not however give it a hypothetical extra program that serves to make it understand people well enough to assist them.

I get that in your understanding of the lore/fluff a Drone is incapable of understanding metahumans well enough to assist them, and that a hypothetical piece of software is required to do so.  And I'm not trying to "correct" your opinion.  What I'm pointing out is you're inventing a piece of tech/gear never described in the core rulebook nor the Rigger expansion book and declaring it to be a mandatory piece of tech (for participating in assisting metahmans).  It simply isn't in either book... what do I have to do quote the entirety of both books to prove the negative?  The one disputing a claim doesn't disprove a negative, the one making a claim supports his claim.  Cite me which page says a piece of software (other than the Pilot Program) is required for a drone to participate in a teamwork test or else you're making up house rules.  Q.E.D.
 
Quote
I think I have been very clear in what I said, and I believe it's consistent with RAW, further I think my record on RAW has been better then yours. But we have just arguing in circles for the last couple post, so if you come up with some useful new point let me know. Otherwise I'm done with this.

Alright.  You do know what a Non-Sequitur is?  Even if I had been wrong 100 times before it doesn't mean I'm wrong now.  Furthermore saying "Nanny nanny poo poo Jayde Moon agreed with me and not you-ooo!" is kindergarten shit.  Not suitable for intelligent discussion.

If you want to self righteously do a mike drop, do it after explaining why the Proleterian doesn't have any "May take part in a Teamwork Test" software of some kind.  And for that matter, why the rulebook doesn't tell us the qualities OF that software (how much it costs, what its availability rating is, etc)
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (02:04:46/06-09-18)
SSDR you really like putting words in my mouth for some reason, I certainly never did anything so childish.  Based upon our many interaction I think you and raw don't get along very well. I don't know why you just seem to read something and deiced the rules can't be seen any other way, regardless of the other effects, and I don't just mean Magic and Drones, we have done this dance at least 4 times. 

You seem to take this stuff very personally, and I'm not sure why. If a Mod comes in here and says drones running under dogbrain can make team test all day great, I'm just as happy with that out come as any other. My goal is to understand the rules and have the best game of SR possible. I'd be very happy to make good use of drone team works test if that's legal, and if comes in and says the other way then I'm all for making teamwork autosoft. Or if he says we are both crazy and drone can't teamwork test that's also fine.

It's just a game SSDR, no more, no less. A game I think we both really enjoy, so lets relax and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on (04:07:18/06-09-18)
Hey all, new to the neighborhood and been reading up on some of the topics here, so hope I'm not interrupting anything.

I'm kind of interested in hearing it from an official source, and agree it's an interesting question.

The only thing that the core covers anything like it is Medkits. If the "(talkative) doctor expert system" that if needed "can operate itself with a dice pool of Medkit RatingX2 with a limit equal to its rating" isn't a drone of some sort, I'm not sure what is.

Though when assisting a character, unlike another human assisting in a teamwork test, it doesn't add dice to the player making the roll, only the limit. It's strictly assisting.

So, can that logic be extended to other activities? Like a drone 'lighting up' a target as mentioned earlier? Without any official source saying otherwise, as a GM, I'd probably allow it, but like the Medkit it wouldn't add more dice rather than just raise the limit based on its roll (there's nothing intuitive or constructive the drone is adding, merely providing a service similar to a Medkit). Still, in this case, it wouldn't make a gun more accurate, only making it easier for the one shooting, so this would only really help if the gun's accuracy is higher than the character's limit in that scenario if my presumption is correct.

Of course, a Drone's ability to 'assist' in that way would be situational, and limited to what it is programmed to do, and the creativity of the Rigger or one telling the drone what they wanted from it.

If, for whatever reason, the drone is programmed to lockpick for example, the dogbrain would only try to pick the lock itself with whatever tools were built into it- it wouldn't be able to assist the character (unless the character needed a lockpick tool and tore it off the drone maybe?  ;D ). I kind of see drone programs as akin to Skillwires (in that it controls the 'muscle memory' of the user). The drone 'understands' how to pick the lock, but can not explain it, only attempt it.

Now, if it were programmed like I'm presuming a Medkit is, in that it is programmed specifically to assist in such actions, if you had a programmer give it a knowledgesoft on "how to Lockpick" that would probably work like a Medkit. Does that make any sense?

...Now that I'm thinking of it... I'm kind of curious if physical Skillwired characters can (or should be able to) assist in teamwork tests of that type if they're relying on Skillwires... but that might be a whole new can of worms...

Anyway, that's my 2 nuyen on it.

Crunch~
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: kainite311 on (12:25:40/06-09-18)
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying Streetsam... But medkits can add to dice pools when used (one could say they are 'assisting'):
Quote
Wireless: The Medkit provides a dice pool bonus equal to its rating to First Aid + Logic tests, or can operate itself with a dice pool of Medkit Rating x 2 and a limit equal to its Rating.

There seems to be a narrow focus on what each other's perception of what constitutes as the actual teamwork being provided. To this I submit the following (this instance is combat related as that seems to be the majority of the answers): I do not think you need to 'predict' what an ally you are helping is going to do in any great detail. Simpy knowing they are shooting at target A is enough (and rather simple to understand). So your goal can be many outcomes or combinations of things, such as: provide useful intel on target location (range, angle, body position, cover weakness, whatever, ect...), it could be dividing the targets attention into thinking it has to defend against you also, herding them into position for a better shot, shining the proverbial laser sight in their eyes to distract them... There are many variations on the same theme. The problem becomes, some of these actions step on the toes of other modifiers, but for sanity and simplicity, keep it all contained in the teamwork test. I would think most of these are really simple and basic to understand (hence, if you have the skill, you understand how to help without having to know exactly what the other person is doing).

To use a football analogy, you don't have to know the exact path that the ball runner is taking to help him, it's enough to know that his goal is to cross the score line. You have many ways to assist in physical blocking, screen cover, even your basic presence alters the defender's attempt to get to the ball carrier as they have to figure out how to contend with you without interfering with their plan.

Also, don't skillwires allow you to make a teamwork test? Can you assist someone who is using skillwires? If so, then how is a pilot program + autosoft somehow less capable then skillwire skillsofts + attribute. And to be honest, the rolls are pretty low (pilot 3 + autosoft 3 = net 2 hits on average).
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on (13:21:51/06-09-18)
You're right! It was really late, and I was focused more on the non-wireless benefit (outside of it being able to operate itself). My apologies! Didn't mean to detract from the point that the closest 'drone assist' device was a Medkit.

Though that brings up a good point. Perhaps one could get the full benefit if the one using them were accessing them wirelessly like Medkits (getting access to similar instructions/overlays the drone would be).

As for Skillwires, it doesn't specifically say (though presumably the intention is that it being another character, it can if just by lack of specification otherwise). The only thing in that regard is that the using character cannot spend Edge on the roll because there's no luck, only programming, involved. In either case, I just thought it was an interesting question in that regard, and one that probably shouldn't be dwelled on in too much depth (as I said, another can of worms ;) )

Crunch~
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (23:20:52/06-14-18)
Well here's the ruling on it.
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23881.msg500927;topicseen#msg500927
So officially dog brain drones can assist on Perception and Shooting tests, time to start investing a little shooting buddy folks.
 
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on (23:25:03/06-14-18)
Quote from: Jayde Moon
If the drone is physically capable of assisting.  Perception test, too easy.  Spotter for a shooting test, I'll buy it.  Rotodrone helping you pick that maglock, probably not... (I say probably because some rigger will add an extended articulated arm that will enable to assist from ten feet above or something).

Yup, pretty much what I figured :)

Crunch~
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (23:34:21/06-14-18)
And technical tasks too, so long as the drone is physically capable (e.g. has an articulated arm)
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Jayde Moon on (23:48:31/06-14-18)
Keep in mind that these are interim until the FAQ team looks it over.

I'm not convinced that you can't do teamwork tests for shooting and generally rule that ALL teamwork tests are allowable only if it makes sense but that all Skill + Attribute tests have some situational instance where a teamwork test could make sense.

If a guy is running down the hall blazing with a handgun, a person standing in a stairwell with no weapons is probably not going to be able to contribute to a teamwork test (though I will listen with amusement to a couple of justifications before finalizing my 'no' and moving on).

But mechanically, the rule for teamwork test is that there is a leader and there are assistants.  If you wanted to be really nit picky, all the assistants need to be part of your 'group' but who or what can be in a group isn't well-defined...

I don't buy Xenon's statement about it needing to be expressly allowed because I don't know where the official list of "Skills That Can benefit from Teamwork Tests" can be located.  I thought maybe each instance of 'Using X Skill' might have a specific Teamwork Test Yay/Nay entry, but they don't and many skills that obviously allow for teamwork tests don't say anything at all about it.

So, Skill + Attribute.

Annotating if there are restrictions might be a question for the Errata team.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (02:05:31/06-15-18)
We already have a way of teamwork in combat, two actually. The increasing penalty from dodging multiple attacks, and suppressive fire. Teamworking combat is not something I'd allow on account of cheesiness and lethality.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (02:19:47/06-15-18)
We already have a way of teamwork in combat, two actually. The increasing penalty from dodging multiple attacks, and suppressive fire. Teamworking combat is not something I'd allow on account of cheesiness and lethality.
I hear you, which is one of the reason why i argued for needing another autosoft to make it happen. But this is the game we play and world we live in. So droning up your gun now has some solid potential for usefulness.
 

Ok Gun do I have shot lined up?
(Teamwork Test)
Yeah boss all set! (PEW PEW)
LOL
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Xenon on (04:35:26/06-15-18)
I don't buy Xenon's statement about it needing to be expressly allowed
Ouch.... are you aware of what you are really suggesting...?

It is clear that you are allowed to use assist in ritual spellcasting (p. 296), group summoning (p. 300), assist in the healing process (p. 208), to help find a buyer when fencing gear (p. 418), as perception when several people looking for the same thing (p. 135), when tracking someone (p. 49), for animal handling to assist a critter's tracking test (p. 137) etc. Common for all of them are that they are all actions you normally perform out of combat and out of combat turns.

In addition to "regular" teamwork tests you also have specific uses of teamwork that have rules of their own. Leadership can be used to direct a subordinate to help them on a composure test or their next action or to inspire a subordinate to help them on a surprise test (p. 142). Diagnostics when someone use or repair an electronic equipment (p. 257). There is also a variant of teamwork test that may be used in melee combat (p. 188, but so far I have seen nothing similar for ranged combat).

With the exception of Leadership and the explicit Melee Teamwork test I think you need to be very careful before straight off applying standard teamwork tests (increasing limits and adding dice as a positive dice pool modifier) to actions that are normally resolved in action phases during combat (such as regular spell casting, ranged combat, throwing grenades, sprint tests, etc etc).

There are already several mechanics in place for helping your team in combat as is;

SR5 p. 189 Defender has defended against previous attacks
If a character has defended against at least one other attack since his last Action Phase, apply a –1 cumulative modifier for each additional defense roll.

SR5 p. 179 Suppressive Fire
Anyone in the suppressive fire zone or immediately adjacent to it takes a dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the shooter’s hits, unless they are completely unaware of it (a magician using astral projection, for example).

SR5 p. 177 Attacker in melee combat
This modifier applies to any characters trying to make a ranged attack while in melee combat.

SR5 p. 187 Friends in Melee
Whenever an attacker has at least one other person in the melee with them, they gain a +1 dice pool bonus. The bonus does not increase based on the number of friends.


Also, if you want to increase the limit on spellcasting you can use reagents and if you want to increase the limit on ranged combat you can use a smartgun..... Or edge.


I would would think twice before allowing breaking the limit with assistants if I were you.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Jayde Moon on (16:20:55/06-15-18)
I dunno.  I named dropped you mostly to point out that if a skill has to expressly state that it allows a teamwork test, I'm not aware of where that information can be found... if I can't find where let's say performance allows teamwork test then you're telling me you can't do a teamwork test for performance... but a troupe would literally be using teamwork to pull off their overall performance.

I personally limit it via common sense.  10 people can't assist with lockpicking, I don't care that the rules don't expressly limit how many people can assist.

If the player can reasonably explain to me how 10 people are actually realistically contributing to his firearms test, then I'll allow it.

Sometimes we have to remember that the rules are here to help us smoothly move through a cooperative narrative game and not so we can get bogged down into what EXACTLY it says and what EXACTLY that means.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (04:43:54/06-26-18)
This has officially been reversed.

"Drones and teamwork tests:  Dog Brain Drone cannot assist Meat People.  Dog Brain Drone can assist other Dog Brain Drone is they are on the same RCC.  Rigger possessed drone can assist Meat People."

Can't say I'm too surprised this one got the nerf bat. So cancel your drone gun order kids.
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Hobbes on (08:16:03/06-26-18)
Well, assisting in Combat had specific rules already.  Small Unit Tactics, Suppressive Fire, cumulative defense penalty, friends in melee, the actual "Melee Teamwork" rules on p. 188, and so forth.  Drones use Swarm rules.  People use Small Unit Tactics.  Combined Arms uses overlapping zones of Suppressive fire.

Little Buddies with Styr TMPs can still lay down a lot of debuff for not much Nuyen, I wouldn't cancel your order : )



 
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on (09:56:04/06-26-18)
This has officially been reversed.

"Drones and teamwork tests:  Dog Brain Drone cannot assist Meat People.  Dog Brain Drone can assist other Dog Brain Drone is they are on the same RCC.  Rigger possessed drone can assist Meat People."

Can't say I'm too surprised this one got the nerf bat. So cancel your drone gun order kids.

What source are you quoting?
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Michael Chandra on (10:32:26/06-26-18)
It's not official-official I guess, but it's the SRM-status, as posted in the SRM FAQ topic stuff. The same status that says you use Agility in VR unless Sensor-Locked. >_>

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23881.msg501686#msg501686
Title: Re: Drones helping by using teamwork tests?
Post by: Marcus on (11:53:43/06-26-18)
It's not official-official I guess, but it's the SRM-status, as posted in the SRM FAQ topic stuff. The same status that says you use Agility in VR unless Sensor-Locked. >_>

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23881.msg501686#msg501686

Eh it's as official as anything gets, until the actual FAQ/Errata doc drops.