Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Bradd on <01-23-11/1942:04>
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Just want to check my reasoning here.
"Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets" (p. 183, SR4A). Radar sensor cyberware "converts [radar] information into a three-dimensional “map” that overlays (or replaces) the user’s visual senses, similar in some ways to ultrasound .... The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound." (pps. 36–37, Augmentation).
My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.
"Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers." (p. 183, SR4A). "The advantage to the radar sensor is that it can “see” through walls and other materials, which appear as translucent .... It is unaffected by visual tricks like camouflage and Invisibility spells." (p. 36, Augmentation).
My interpretation is that you can target spells through walls using radar, perhaps with a –1 Visibility modifier for the translucency (similar to light smoke). The main vulnerability is the sensor's low radar Signal: rating 2 only gets you 100m and is easily jammed.
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My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.
Neither of those is a visual sense and as such can't be used for targeting spell.
They both give you a visual image yes, but that doesn't make them usable for spell casting any more then a security camera feed into image link is.
For everything else, their as good(or better) as your visual senses, but spellcasting specifically needs a visual sense for gaining LOS.
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My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.
Neither of those is a visual sense and as such can't be used for targeting spell.
They both give you a visual image yes, but that doesn't make them usable for spell casting any more then a security camera feed into image link is.
For everything else, their as good(or better) as your visual senses, but spellcasting specifically needs a visual sense for gaining LOS.
Ultrasound is a visual sense, but echolocation isn't. Radar Sensor specifically says it overlays or replaces the user's visual senses, so it is also a Visual Sense.
As it's cyberware and you're paying for it with Essense, that means you're taking a permanent hit to your Magic score for this. That seems like a fair trade off. The way it reads, its legal, and if I were the GM, I'd allow it.
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Ultrasound is definitely a visual sense: It is a vision enhancement (p. 333, SR4A) and uses Visibility modifiers. Magically speaking, it makes just as much to see with sound as it does to see with heat, and scientifically speaking, it makes just as much sense to detect things with radio as infrared, so both of these have just as good a claim to spell targeting as thermographic vision.
The rules do disallow technological substitutes for vision like "cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.," but they specifically alow "cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence." The security camera feed isn't paid for with Essence, so you can't use it for spell targeting even with an image link. However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.
As for echolocation, I personally think the rule is intended to emphasize "the character's own visual senses" rather than "the character's own visual senses." Or to put it another way, if it quacks like vision – it targets precisely and uses Visibility modifiers – then it counts as vision for the sake of spellcasting. This is the same reason I think you can use touch to target line-of-sight spells even though touch isn't literally a visual sense.
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The problem with this is that it allows spell casting through solid objects. At that point it stops being Shadowrun and starts being whose mage can nuke the other team first when the other team can't even hurt him.
Oh ya, that sounds like lots of fun.
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Ritual spellcasting, conjuring, and astral projection all ignore walls, so if that's your concern then the game is already broken. ;) Also, it's not that tough to protect against penetrating radar. It's only signal 2, so it's very easy to block with a jammer or inhibiting paint (which is already standard practice at a lot of places, for wireless security).
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Getting it costs the Mage a permanent loss of their Magic score, which is a huge BP penalty they have to take. Plus it would only work with Direct spells, as Indirect spells would hit the wall and stop.
It's more nifty than gamebreaking, if you ask me.
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Ritual spellcasting, conjuring, and astral projection all ignore walls, so if that's your concern then the game is already broken. ;) Also, it's not that tough to protect against penetrating radar. It's only signal 2, so it's very easy to block with a jammer or inhibiting paint (which is already standard practice at a lot of places, for wireless security).
Ritual spell casting requires a someone to mark the target so no, it doesn't go through walls since the marker has to be there. There is ritual casting with something like a blood sample of the target but at that point if they can get your blood sample they could probably just out right kill you either way. Conjuring summons a spirit which can be easily killed from Force 6 down (done it tons of times) and they can't go through a wall that's properly defended astrally so that's balanced and even if they did they still have to come to the physical plane which means you can defend against them unlike this, astral projection can't hurt any one on the physical unless they are dual natured so that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject.
Jamming is pointless thanks to a decent ECCM, in fact even the best jammers have never actually jammed me or my teammates in a single game. Most people don't paint every inch of a building...in fact no one does. So that doesn't change the fact that when everyone is taking cover in a fire fight people will start dying with no way to defend themselves because the mage can see through all cover making it pointless.
He could find a corner, sit there, set up a spirit in front of him to block bullets (or grenades) and just nuke everyone from a safe spot without any worries about the enemy. In any video game that junk would be nerfed on day one. You know, unless everyone does it. Which would make sense since in this set up the only thing which could stop him would be another mage or a swarm of drones sacrificing themselves until one gets a clear shot.
Getting it costs the Mage a permanent loss of their Magic score, which is a huge BP penalty they have to take. Plus it would only work with Direct spells, as Indirect spells would hit the wall and stop.
It's more nifty than gamebreaking, if you ask me.
You make full magic mages? I've never made a mage without essence loss and I still throw 13-15 dice out of Chargen. That isn't a huge penalty at all, in fact taking a hit to your essence is usually more cost effective with the right gear. Direct spells are some of the worse, all they can be defended with against is will power and (hopefully they have it) counter spelling. Indirect spells are kind of a waste when an assault rifle can get the job done with more damage and without hurting you.
I think it's pretty game breaking when someone can hit your whole team from behind a wall and you can't see them. How is it balanced when one character can start picking people off without a chance of defense? They can't even take cover because it sees right through cover.
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10 to 25 BP is a huge penalty, no matter what your build. That's more than worth a 'shoot certain spells through certain walls' ability. And quite frankly, anything you can see through with a Rating 2 radar sensor, you can also shoot through with a big enough gun. Seeing through walls is not nearly as gamebreaking as you want to make it out to be. It's not like the GM is gonna conveniently place your enemies on the other side of an impenetrable barrier without any means of getting to you while you snipe them with your spells.
As for the Jamming issue, Radar Sensor is always Signal 2. The higher ratings do not increase the signal, and you can't install ECCM on it since it doesn't have a System rating. Hard to call it broken when you can completely kill it with 1500 nuyen.
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Ritual spell casting requires a someone to mark the target so no, it doesn't go through walls since the marker has to be there. There is ritual casting with something like a blood sample of the target but at that point if they can get your blood sample they could probably just out right kill you either way.
Ritual spellcasting never requires a physical presence; you just need an astral spotter. "The target does not have to be astrally active (and it’s often safer for the spotter if she isn’t); the spotter must just be able to assense him." (p. 185, SR4A) If that isn't convenient, you can use a tissue sample or even an object that the target has handled. Want to take out all the security at a site? Break into the guards' locker room and use their street clothes for sympathetic links.
Conjuring summons a spirit which can be easily killed from Force 6 down (done it tons of times) and they can't go through a wall that's properly defended astrally so that's balanced and even if they did they still have to come to the physical plane which means you can defend against them unlike this, astral projection can't hurt any one on the physical unless they are dual natured so that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject.
If a room is properly warded against astral intruders, then it's also warded against spells cast through the walls and windows. That's about 4–6 extra dice of spell defense. Otherwise, spirits can slip right through, materialize, and attack. Sure you can fight back against the spirits, but you can't touch the conjurer. And if Force 6 isn't enough, summon Force 7.
I think it's pretty game breaking when someone can hit your whole team from behind a wall and you can't see them. How is it balanced when one character can start picking people off without a chance of defense? They can't even take cover because it sees right through cover.
What about mage sight goggles? If the room has a door, you can stick a scope or mirror under it, same result. If the room doesn't have a door, you can drill a hole through the wall. If they've gone to the trouble to keep you from drilling through the wall, they've probably blocked radar and astral travel too. Like Ryo said, it's a novelty and a convenience, so that you don't need to fuss with the mage sight goggles.
And these tricks are hardly limited to magicians. Crack under the door? Feed in a tube and gas the room. Even better, use your radar sensor to locate your targets and the wall studs. Shoot through the drywall between the studs: The targets get only +2 Armor, nothing more. With a high-powered rifle, you'll have everyone down before they know what hit them.
Want to prevent this? Same thing works well against both mages and snipers shooting through walls: drones.
Wait, strike that. Monitor your site via sensors, and take out intruders remotely with gas. If they're protected, send in the drones to take off their gas masks. ;)
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However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.
Yes for ease of use they act like vision, but getting LOS for spellcasting requires an use of an actual visual sense and radar defenedly isn't a visual sense.
Using radar sensor your not seeing anything except a computer made image based on the data provided by the radar.
Here's a pretty good post from the former line devoleper explaining why radar doesn't work (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=20692&view=findpost&p=641977)
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I was starting to wonder until you posted that link. Quite interesting. I would have house-ruled that it doesn't work regardless, but the link is pretty telling. Still not set in stone because the rules are a bit vague, but I'd stand by the "it doesn't work" argument.
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However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.
Yes for ease of use they act like vision, but getting LOS for spellcasting requires an use of an actual visual sense and radar defenedly isn't a visual sense.
Using radar sensor your not seeing anything except a computer made image based on the data provided by the radar.
Here's a pretty good post from the former line devoleper explaining why radar doesn't work (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=20692&view=findpost&p=641977)
That's...a terrible explanation. I seriously feel cheated by that explanation, and am horribly disappointed that a Developer came up with it. Wait, former developer? Would this guy's opinion on the matter still be considered reliable Word of God, as it were?
Saying that all spellcasting requires a mystic connection that must be forged through the physical eyes completely invalidates the possibility of a mage with Cybereyes, as they would also composite a completely electronic picture, and also seriously hampers the function of touch spells. And I like how he had to throw in 'when it comes to metahumans,' in order to not include any mystical critters that don't need, or have, normal vision.
I can understand a developer deciding it can be abused and wanting to make up a reason why it doesn't work, but that explanation was not a good one.
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Spell targeting when it comes to metahumans, for yet unknown reasons, is linked to visually (or alternately astrally) targeting a subject with the sense of sight - and by extension to what the metahuman eye can see. Why this is metahuman thaumaturgy hasn't yet worked out, but whether a spell is LOS or touch it always requires a mystic link (the spell targeting part) that is enabled by the sense of sight (whether physical or astral) - taste, sound, smell and even simple touch do not work.
While this is an interesting way to answer the question of whether you can use touch to cast a line-of-sight spell, it contradicts the rules as written: "Some spells can only be cast on targets that the caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen" (p. 183, SR4A, emphasis mine). This rule is not new to the Anniversary edition; the same text appears on p. 173 of SR4.
Synner's post also contradicts the Shadowrun FAQ, which allows any reasonably precise sense to substitute for vision. I'm no fan of the FAQ, but it's at least as authoritative as a former developer's forum posts from two years ago.
Anyway, Synner's argument relies on the premise that it isn't enough for a sense to be "visual" or a "vision enhancement": You actually need visible light falling directly on eyes. Ultrasound doesn't count because it isn't light, and radar doesn't count because it's a computer model and not direct sensory stimulus.
That premise is false, obviously so in the case of touch spells. It falls apart elsewhere in the details. For example, Synner allows thermographic vision but not radar vision because "unusual parts of the visual light spectrum" are OK but "electronic composite visual representation of non-visual sensory data" is not. However, radar is also just an unusual part of the light spectrum, and anything you see via cybereye is certainly an electronic composite. In both cases, you've got an electromagnetic sensor, an image processor, and a neural link, no difference. Sorry, but if you're going to rely on nitpicky scientific details you've got to do better than that.
The post is well-intended, but ultimately it's just science-babble rationalization for a desired result, with some premises that blatantly contradict the rules. Sorry, but I don't find that compelling at all.
Meanwhile, the rules still say that ultrasound is a vision enhancement.
(Or in short: What Ryo said!)
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And lets not forget that anybody with a cursory knowledge of sensory function knows that you don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain. The Occipital lobe is what's doing all the work there. You can have totally functional and healthy eyes, but if you have damage in your occipital lobe, you're as blind as it gets. There's even a quality in Runner's Companion that references this. (Page 108, Reduced Sense)
The only way a Radar sensor could possibly work as advertised would be for it to be connected to the Occipital lobe. It collects stimuli from radio waves (a type of light), then gives this information to the Occipital lobe in a way the brain can comprehend it. At that point, you are officially seeing that radar picture, by every definition of the word 'see' there is.
Ignoring real world biology though, it's still considered a Visual Sense by the rules, as Bradd pointed out. Without a specific note in the rules or errata disallowing it to count for LOS, then its legal.
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Yeah, I don't think you can make a plausible scientific argument that allows thermographic cybereyes but not ultrasound and radar imaging. It's all going to the same place, in the same format. (And it's all paid for with Essence, beginning to end.)
You could argue that the requirement to see with eyes and visible light is a mystic/symbolic thing rather than a scientific one. However, as one of the Dumpshock posters noted, receiving the reflected radar with eyeware antennae is a simple matter of engineering. (Sensors are headware, so they're already in basically the right place already.) It's not much different in principle from using eye lights and low-light vision, which is allowed. And allowing infrared but not radio vision is pretty arbitrary, as both occur in nature, and they're adjacent on the spectrum.
You could argue mixing magic and radar just doesn't seem right, but meh. Matter of taste. There's plenty in this game that's based around interesting combinations of magic and tech.
You could argue that it's imbalanced, but there really isn't much that you can't do anyway. You don't really need a magician or radar to get the same sneak attack potential.
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Satellite targetting and a Barret 121 at 1000 meters fall under that category, as well.
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The rationalization comes more from a game balance perspective then a scientific one. While I don't want everyone to be equal-bland-carbon copies of one anther, giving every mage everywhere the ability to negate all LOS cover limitations using Direct spells, the type that typically has the smallest pool to defend against, all for the cost of .3 essence or less with higher grades? I'm sorry, that's unbalancing.
If you don't think so, then by all means try it out. As a GM I'm willing to host that game, but be forewarned that I'm more then willing to use it right back and a single mage with Control Thoughts that nobody can act on but another mage with Radar Sensor sounds like a quick TPK.
Also, your bringing science into a game that has dragons and fireballs. If you were talking about the purely tech parts of the game I'd be fine with that, but magic routinely defies the laws of science in Shadowrun. Why do you think a scientific argument would change how the magic works in this instance? It's a requirement on the magic side not the tech side, and magic doesn't always conform to science.
Satellite targetting and a Barret 121 at 1000 meters fall under that category, as well.
Scary thought.
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The reason that ultrasound and radar sensors both fail as a valid means to target spells is that they don't directly give you a new sense. The radar or ultrasound isn't going directly to your brain - a representation of that data is going to your brain. You're not seeing the target, but a computer-generated representation of a target. I could see the argument for allowing it if the data went directly to someone's head, but mere CGI, which is what this is, is not good enough for spell targeting (although you could certainly use it to get a better idea of where to aim an indirect spell).
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I'm not the one that's bringing science into a game with dragons and fireballs, Shadowrun is. The entire magic system is very well thought out, and is constructed as a kind of Magic as Science system. The explanation for why this does not work is also a scientific one. It doesn't talk about auras or mysticism, but rather, light stimuli striking the retina. I fail to see how a radar or ultrasound sensor constructing an electric image and transferring this data to your brain is any different from a cybereye constructing an electric image and doing the same. No matter how you slice it, a cybereye is also an electronic piece of equipment that must interpret the data it receives and send this to the brain in a useable fashion. Not only that, but what about a cyberlimb? How is a mage with a cyberhand using that limb for touch spells any different, considering the signals the body receives from it are purely electrical? When you pay for electronic sensors with essence, they become part of the holistic integrity of the body, and thus become compatible with spells.
I understand there's a balance issue to be considered, but in that case you just have to declare it abuse-able as a GM and severely punish any player that pushes it too far. There is no way I can see to rationalize it not working that wouldn't also affect other cyberware.
Plus you could always rule some pretty easy nerfs into it to stop your mages from shooting through cover. Much like Astral sight imposes a penalty for trying to take physical actions, you could rule that this Radar Vision would have a similar penalty against magical actions, thus imposing a -2. And since Radar Sensor says walls become translucent, but doesn't define how, you could rule it as being equal to Heavy smoke, which imposes an additional -4. That makes the total penalty here -6, the same as blind firing through a barrier, which seems fair for a mage trying to shoot through cover.
Alternatively, you could rule that a wall counts as light smoke, and thus would be -2, but that this is cumulative for every wall the mage is looking through. Presumably, the Mage isn't just standing out in the open, so he takes -2 for looking through his own cover, and an additional -2 for looking through his opponent's cover. You come up with a total of -4 here, and could easily up it to -6 again by ruling that the shooting from behind cover modifier still applies, even with his fancy radar vision.
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I have no problem with tech giving any kind of advantage. That's the point of technology, it's why we humans make it in the first place: Technology gives an overwhelming advantage to humans vs. virtually any other living thing on the planet.
Ryo's idea of introducing a modifier to tests based upon what the mage is trying to zap through looks very workable. I like it better than flat-out outlawing something. Plus, there's always the concept I remind my players of when they start getting a little to crazy with whatever: What's Good For The Goose Is Good For The GanderTM. That keeps abuses down, but also introduces new tactics and strategies to the game that can make play more interesting.
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@Glyph: Radar and ultrasound do go directly to your head, literally! It's headware that receives sensory input and injects it into your natural or cybernetic vision. The gear probably sits somewhere in your sinuses or behind your eyes, to give you the best field of view with minimal interference from your own body.
@Ryo & Gun Nut: I initially thought that a Visibility modifier would be appropriate for the translucency, but now I think a Partial Cover modifier would be most appropriate. That's what you use for firing through curtains, and it also seems appropriate or things like tinted windows and radar translucency.
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Well, if we're going to get into the science then why not, I'll bite.
I don't see why there is an assumption that cybereyes are wholly digital. Electrically driven does not mean it is digital. Nowhere in the rules is this stated and makes less sense to me then a combination of analog and digital parts.
Mostly I base my reasoning on that the brain wouldn't know how to interpret a digital signal. A stream of zeros and ones could be interpreted as anything to the visual cortex, which is used to taking input in the form of electrical stimuli (analog signals) from the fovia (I believe, high school bio was a long time ago). Additionally, it is Shadowrun cannon that the brain cannot directly interpret digital signals, one needs a simsense module to interprate digital signals into sensations. The cybereye does not require a simsense module to use, so clearly the signal reaching the brain must be an analog signal, though I'm willing to hear a counter argument.
This leaves two options for how the cybereye works. Either a digital camera that then translates information it picks up back into analog form or an analog camera, though the analog camera may have certain parts that are digitized.
Though either can work, translating light into a digital signal then back into analog again seems somewhat redundent. But that doesn't rule it out. What doesn't make any sense with this setup though is the other visual modes. Thermo, lowlight, vision mag, vision enhancement, all of these take up either essence or capacity. If the information is digital then converted back to analog, then why should it take up capacity? Shouldn't it be software driven? Is the software so complex that each one needs it's own storage space? And if you say it's purely a game balance thing, then why is it ok to have THIS be a game balance call that makes no sense and the ruling on Radar Sensor and spellcasting isn't?
To me it makes far more sense given these things that it is an optical camera system. AR can be achieved by putting a contact lens sized transparent screen in, the light from AR would be an analog signal. Magnification is a physical lens movement. Low light is achieved by use of an artificial tapetum lucidum (part of a cat's eye that allows enhanced night vision, basically cells behind the retina that reflect a small portion of light). I'm at a loss for the moment on how to get thermograph, but if it exists naturally (Trolls, Dwarfs, etc) then it should be able to be artificially duplicated. Recording could be an actual digital camera that recorded the image seen, this need not be placed in the path of the visual light. Smartlink would function just like AR Image Link, Eye enhancement would be superior lenses. Totally possible as an analog system.
This leads to the big point, when you see a spellcasting target with cybereyes the information relayed to your brain need not have even been digitized. That is not the case with Radar Sense or Ultrasound, they HAVE to be converted from a digital form at some point (while analog radar systems do exist size is an issue, plotting time another, resolution, etc, etc. At least I think so I only spent about a minute confirming the info on the net). Anyhow, the fact that the information was digitized and then reproduced as an image means what your seeing is a picture representing the object. No different then wanting to target via TacNet's AR display.
Anyhow, this is how I see it when I analyze the tech aspects, combined with the rule system.
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Whether you can target with cybereyes has nothing to do with whether they're digital. The rules make it plain that you need natural optics or Essence-paid senses, not both. The only question here is what counts as "sight," and if radar were eyewear rather than headwear there wouldn't be any question here whatever. That's why we're saying that it's purely a matter of game balance and taste, and the game balance really isn't a big deal.
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Additionally, it is Shadowrun cannon that the brain cannot directly interpret digital signals, one needs a simsense module to interprate digital signals into sensations. The cybereye does not require a simsense module to use, so clearly the signal reaching the brain must be an analog signal, though I'm willing to hear a counter argument.
Radar and Ultrasound don't require a simsense module either. So by your own logic, these too must be an analog signal sent to the brain, correct?
I'm not sure what the difference is that you're drawing between digital and analog, or why you're assuming Ultrasound and Radar are one while cybereyes are the other. All three are electronic sensors installed in the body that replace natural visual senses. The source book does not differentiate between the three beyond that.
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If you want to get real specific about it, the human eye sends digital signals because each chemical transmission is a quantum event (single chemical change). The number of changes per unit time describes the intensity and the specific chemical involved in receiving the photon describes the frequency of light received.
So, yeah, digital.
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I fail to see how a radar or ultrasound sensor constructing an electric image and transferring this data to your brain is any different from a cybereye constructing an electric image and doing the same.
Cyber eye doesn't construct anythink, it directly feeds the image to your drain.
Whereas Radar senser takes the radar singnals returning to it and makes a digital representation based on those radar signals and then superimposes it over you vision.
In this sense radar sensor is no different from remote camera feed, which also can't be used for targeting spells.
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Except camera feeds don't cost essence, and radar only translates a specific frequency of light to something that the neurons can handle. Just like thermo, low-light, and normal cybereyes.
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The reason I would say no to Targeting with ultrasound and radar is that sense relies on a large amount of computer processing in order for the metahmuan mind to use the sensory information. The Computer-Assisted Sensory Translation (CAST) technology in 139 Augmentation implies that our brains need help with the weird senses that we shove in.
As a GM The only way I would allow it is if the Mage underwent some extensive brain surgery (Witch may lead to burnout anyways)
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Well, for what it's worth the developers have indicated that the main reason they don't consider Radar and Ultrasound to be eligible for spell targeting is for Game Balance, not necessarily in-game reasons.
-k
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Well, for what it's worth the developers have indicated that the main reason they don't consider Radar and Ultrasound to be eligible for spell targeting is for Game Balance, not necessarily in-game reasons.
ah your one of those people that say "please don't do that because it would break the game" I miss your kind of people.
All my PCs want me to come up with a reason of why they can't do something in technical detail.
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The reason I would say no to Targeting with ultrasound and radar is that sense relies on a large amount of computer processing in order for the metahmuan mind to use the sensory information. The Computer-Assisted Sensory Translation (CAST) technology in 139 Augmentation implies that our brains need help with the weird senses that we shove in.
As a GM The only way I would allow it is if the Mage underwent some extensive brain surgery (Witch may lead to burnout anyways)
CAST is specific to a rigger controlling a drone built out of a critter's body, not to ware stuck in the body. Although I could see you drawing a connection there, but then it should also apply to Thermographic vision, which we already know works fine for LOS despite being an exotic form of sensory perception that the brain isn't designed to interpret, unless you're a troll.
I also don't see how ultrasound and radar require any more computer processing than cybervision, especially those with Thermographic enhancement. The pictures they construct are created using rangefinding, which isn't that different functionally from how normal vision works, as its all light bouncing off a subject being picked up by sensory organs. The only difference is Radar uses radio waves, rather than visible light, and ultrasound uses sound waves.
There are better ways to deal with the game balance issue than outright outlawing something clever and interesting. Though if you really want to talk about game balance problems, what about Ocular drones? They're cybereyes paid for with essence and perfectly useable for LOS, but you can pop them out of your skull and control them like a drone.
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An Expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information into a three-dimensional "map"...
That sound like extra processing to me, low light and thermographic vision can go down the optic nerve with little effort
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I also don't see how ultrasound and radar require any more computer processing than cybervision, especially those with Thermographic enhancement.
Have you read the description for radar sensor, it's pretty clear that it, unlike cyber eyes, doesn't feed the sensor data directly to your drains.
Instead a computer program uses the data from the sensor to build an image that is then superimposed over the users normal vision.
edit: thanks for the quote morg
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Cyber eye doesn't construct anythink, it directly feeds the image to your drain.
Whereas Radar senser takes the radar singnals returning to it and makes a digital representation based on those radar signals and then superimposes it over you vision.
In this sense radar sensor is no different from remote camera feed, which also can't be used for targeting spells.
A cybereye is also no different from a remote camera, except that you pay Essence for it. When you pay Essence, you get to use it for spell targeting.
And thermographic imaging is no different from radar: You need to sense wavelengths outside the normal human range, analyze and process them into a form comprehensible by humans, and inject the result into the optic nerve. Both use cybernetics implanted in your head, both cost Essence.
More importantly, all of these "scientific" arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how your implants grant you enhanced senses: "Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets" (p. 183, SR4A). That's all that counts, whether you've paid Essence for the sense. The only remaining argument is how literally to interpret "sight" in the targeting rules.
@Morg & Mäx: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermographic_camera for a description of current thermographic sensors. They operate by receiving infrared inputs, calculating the difference from local ambient temperature, and then rendering it in a form that humans can understand. That is almost exactly the way Augmentation describes the radar sensor: It receives radio inputs, calculates ranges, and renders it in a form that humans can understand. Why do you think it's so trivial to process infrared imaging, and where's the substantive difference from processing radio imaging?
@Ryo: For what it's worth, the Shadowrun FAQ says that ocular drones only count as "paid for with Essence" when they're implanted in your body, not when operating remotely. However, the FAQ has a lot of dubious and contradictory rulings, and so a lot of us (including Mäx, IIRC) take it with a huge grain of salt or ignore it entirely.
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OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.
Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.
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OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.
Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.
Now that we have some good reasons why you shouldn't do it, anyone have a good list why you should?
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@Ryo: For what it's worth, the Shadowrun FAQ says that ocular drones only count as "paid for with Essence" when they're implanted in your body, not when operating remotely. However, the FAQ has a lot of dubious and contradictory rulings, and so a lot of us (including Mäx, IIRC) take it with a huge grain of salt or ignore it entirely.
Most definitely including me, but luckily we have no need for that pile of crap to know that remotely operating ocular drone can't be used for getting LOS.
Ocular Drone: This enhancement only affects one eyeball per
purchase but it installs a small spyball drone in the user’s ocular cavity.
The spyball functions as a normal cybereye until the user chooses to
remove it and control it as though it were a standard spyball drone
The bolded part should be enough for that.
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OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.
Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.
Now that we have some good reasons why you shouldn't do it, anyone have a good list why you should?
It's cool! (This is the most important reason, IMO.)
You can play magicians with non-traditional vision (a la Daredevil).
It fits the Shadowrun theme of melding man, machine, and magic.
The rules say you can use non-optical enhancements so long as they're paid with Essence.
The FAQ says that you can target spells with other senses.
Ultrasound is a vision enhancement.
Also, I didn't say those are good reasons to disallow radar spell targeting. I just want to know which ones really matter to you, so that we don't pointlessly argue fine points of things that don't address your real issues. I think some of those arguments are reasonable (even though I disagree with them), whereas others are just terrible. For example, Taylor's ruling is a disaster (see above for details).
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I'm not entirely sure why I brought up Ocular Drone, as I can easily see why it wouldn't work. Once the eye is removed, what connection exists between the eye and the body? The only one that makes sense is a wireless signal, which obviously doesn't work for LOS. Pulling your eye out and using that for LOS makes just as much sense as cutting your hand off and throwing it at somebody for a Touch spell.
Anyhow, Bradd gave a big list of stuff to see which ones were the basis of your desire to outlaw Radar Sensors, not because he was giving reasons why it shouldn't work. For one thing, I can shoot down every one of them.
Targeting spells through walls: Not actually an issue. What GM is gonna conveniently place your targets on the opposite side of a wall for you to pick off without retaliation? The real issue is seeing through Cover, which is better handled by applying modifiers than simply outlawing it outright.
Ignoring invisibility: I fail to see how a mage being able to spell cast at an invisible target with their radar sensor is any more unbalanced than a street sam filling the same target with lead with their own.
Only vision works: Already disproven with Touch spells.
Only natural works: would also disqualify cybereyes in general, especially thermographic vision.
The only two that really stand up are a developer saying 'no', though his excuse was pretty shoddy, and 'only eyeware works.' I can at least accept that distinction, though it's purely a mechanical difference with no flavor to support it. Considering Radar counts as a visual sense, a determined player could simply use the Build rules to make an eyeware version of the headware.
I like the idea of allowing it because its a neat idea, and I am generally against nipping a player's creativity in the bud due to an irrational fear of breaking the game. The only reason to outright outlaw an option in advance is if it has absolutely no redeeming uses whatsoever, and only exists as a gamebreaking cheat. The Emotitoy, for example, is really hard to rationalize as anything other than a cheat. There's a lot of nifty and clever ways a mage could use a radar sensor for the enjoyment of the entire group, so there's no reason to drop the hammer until the player starts to abuse it. At which point, you approach it the same way a GM should approach the other countless things you can abuse in this system: with extreme prejudice.
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ok Bradd if it were as you say then the Spell Spatial Sense would provide a mystic link to target as it is the magical analog and I will go with magic working with magic before I will go magic working with machine (it is apparently a large problem for them to make Magitech just look at how few Magitech Items there are)
Secondly it would damage the utility of Mage Sight Goggles
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[Sorry to keep editing this. My thoughts are pretty disjointed today, and I don't want to keep replying to myself.]
I don't have a problem with using the spatial sense spell for targeting. Note however that it cannot detect security features, living things, or anything behind a mana barrier. However, it seems ideal for targeting geographical and structural features with physical spells, if that's what you want to do.
Note that magical targeting with cyber-enhancements is one of the areas where magic and tech do combine well.
Mages have many ways to attack through walls. They're all just different tools. Having more options doesn't sacrifice utility, they just give you different cost-benefit tradeoffs. Mage sight goggles have the shortest range but cost only money. Radar goes a bit farther but costs Essence too. Spirits have unlimited range but require a big skill investment. Ritual spellcasting takes a long time.
Anyway, you still haven't said what your basic objection is to radar. Why would you turn it down? What about ultrasound? Echolocation?
I personally think the best argument against radar is that it's simply a matter of taste. Some folks think it's cool, others think it's too much of a stretch to use high tech for magic. I disagree, especially when you consider some of the things that are by-the-book legal for spellcasting, like self-propelled fiber optic cables, and the new smartlink-assist gloves. However, if you think radar is just too unnatural for spellcasting, well that's entirely reasonable.
The next best argument is that spellcasting requires eyesight, and that augmented vision only works if it's eyeware. There's no solid RAW resolution to this question, because we don't know how literal the magic rules are about "sight," and the game liberally refers to headware sensors as "vision" or "sight." There's no solid RAI resolution either, because CGL reps have given diametrically opposed answers to the question.
Therefore, I think it's reasonable to rule either way on this issue, depending on whether you think it makes the game better or worse. I personally think it's a cool idea, and in line with the growing synergy between tech and magic.
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In my opinion Radar and Ultrasound are to far removed from "vision"
Let me be more on target Radar and Ultrasound are to far removed from Optics
in SR3 (yes I am aware we are playing SR4) a magician needed Optic based cybereyes the electronic wouldn't work
so I am more on the bandwagon of this concept: all cybereyes are now of the optic type with the image link providing the extra feeds into the field of vision this is more preferred then saying the nature of magic changed between SR3 - SR4
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That's cool, that's one of the more reasonable objections, in my opinion. The main counterargument is that thermographic "vision" is also far removed from natural vision, in the same ways that ultrasound & radar are, and yet it's legal.
Also, consider: "Sight is the most common means of establishing a connection with a target (hence the range 'Line of Sight'), but by no means the only one" (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#casting). The rules are vague about just how literally we should interpret "sight," and it often uses the word figuratively.
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To clear up the issue SR3 pg 181 Spell Targeting I don't have the book in front of me to quote it
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. The relevant rules for SR4A are on p. 183:
A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc. - cannot be used .... Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers.
Therefore, the RAW targeting requirements are:
* Natural vision (direct or reflected) OR
* Enhancements paid with Essence BUT NOT
* Other enhancements.
Note that it does not specify which kinds of sensors may be used for spell targeting, but merely that they must be paid for with Essence. Meanwhile, it does say that you use normal visibility rules, and I interpret that to include any sense that uses visibility.
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Then you will have to wait until I find my SR3
However Ultrasound and Radar Sensors are "SENSORS" it uses an expert program to compile an image "map"
and therefor count as a technological visual aid that substitute themselves for the characters own vision witch means no spell targeting
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. The relevant rules for SR4A are on p. 183:
A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc. - cannot be used .... Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers.
Thanks for the quote, i bolded the part witch stop radar sensor from working.
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Enhancements paid for with Essence are the character's own senses, and so that clause does not apply. Note how all of the examples are external to the character?
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The moment you need an expert program to "Paint you a Picture" it becomes something similar to a simsense feed so therefor it is a visual aid
You have failed to move me by your argument, I remain firm on my stance
good chatting with you
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The moment you need an expert program to "Paint you a Picture" it becomes something similar to a simsense feed so therefor it is a visual aid
You have failed to move me by your argument, I remain firm on my stance
good chatting with you
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That's an intentional misreading of the material on your part. The technological visual aid part is clearly a reference to external electric gear, not to cyberware paid for with Essence. An ultrasound sensor built into your goggles absolutely cannot be used, one built into your head can.
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Furthermore, if you think that software processing and imaging rules out magical targeting:
The thermal imaging camera would next employ a series of mathematical algorithms. Since the camera is only able to see the electromagnetic radiation that is impossible to detect with the human eye, it will build a picture in the viewer and record a visible picture, usually in a JPG format.
That's exactly how ultrasound and radar work in SR4A, and yet I don't see anyone disputing that it's legal.
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Another thought that just occurred to me: You have to remember that Magic and Essence are a two-way street. Once you rule that built in Radar and Ultrasound sensors don't count for LOS, then they also don't count as part of the body for the sake of magical targeting. Congratulations, your mages (and street sams, for that matter) can now make themselves immune to mana illusion spells at will.
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Another thought that just occurred to me: You have to remember that Magic and Essence are a two-way street. Once you rule that built in Radar and Ultrasound sensors don't count for LOS, then they also don't count as part of the body for the sake of magical targeting. Congratulations, your mages (and street sams, for that matter) can now make themselves immune to mana illusion spells at will.
Ofcource thay count as part of the body for magical targeting, that has no connection with what a mage can use to target spells with.
Also there's a whole lot easier way to become immune to mana illusions, all you needs is a camera tag pointing parallel to your own vision and have it sent it's video stream to your image link.
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Which produces its own set of penalties for splitting attention between AR and the real world. So there is still a net gain.
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All my PCs want me to come up with a reason of why they can't do something in technical detail.
Do they have high ratings of Cybertechnology, Arcana and some supplementary Knowledge skills like Physics? If not, tell them to get stuffed.