Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Marcus on (21:41:21/02-04-18)

Title: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (21:41:21/02-04-18)
So Kill Code? I would like to know more.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (09:24:43/02-05-18)
As do we all... ;D

I doubt that we'll see too much until after Street Lethal has been released.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: HiddenBoss on (10:17:49/02-05-18)
I just hopeing they don't come up with why the matrix now works like it does or if they do, they do it well....
I keep fearing a Mass effect 3 like answer where it never going to be as good as people hoped for.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Kirito99 on (15:41:54/02-05-18)
Please don't make speculation threads named on supplements... I was so hyped that new book is out, then I saw nothing  >:(
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (14:12:46/02-06-18)
I just hopeing they don't come up with why the matrix now works like it does or if they do, they do it well....
I keep fearing a Mass effect 3 like answer where it never going to be as good as people hoped for.
Well, with ME3, they basically ended it with a hot mess that clearly was not thought out well enough (hence why they patched a new end with a quickness). So yeah, you could say there are parallels to the Matrix getting hit by the nostalgia train and going back to the 2050s.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: DWC on (17:50:51/02-28-18)
Still better than Andromeda.  At least ME3 was good for 90% of the game.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (22:49:22/02-28-18)
Still better than Andromeda.  At least ME3 was good for 90% of the game.
That said, at least ME3 and ME:A were the same game as the earlier ones, instead of going from the new Tomb Raider, and then deciding, "You know what this needs? More godawful camera angles and annoying corners like TR: Angel of Darkness for the PS2. Because people haven't thrown their controllers at the screen enough with what we did."
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: TonyK on (18:07:21/03-01-18)
Still better than Andromeda.  At least ME3 was good for 90% of the game.
That said, at least ME3 and ME:A were the same game as the earlier ones, instead of going from the new Tomb Raider, and then deciding, "You know what this needs? More godawful camera angles and annoying corners like TR: Angel of Darkness for the PS2. Because people haven't thrown their controllers at the screen enough with what we did."
Ah-ha, but that's because they  realized there's money to be made in replacement controllers! /Plan 9
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (18:50:25/03-01-18)
Ah-ha, but that's because they  realized there's money to be made in replacement controllers! /Plan 9

that seems 100% legit to me. Just say'en.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: on (11:56:31/03-02-18)
Thread has gone OT. Request to kill -9 26981
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (13:34:52/03-02-18)
Thread has gone OT. Request to kill -9 26981
What topic? It is basically a speculation thread about an unreleased product, and what we hope it may or may not be. Until there is actual info about the book to tell, why not let people enjoy stuff?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (07:16:13/08-02-18)
Wee, it finally exists  ;D
Truth be told, my expectations couldn´t be lower, so I´m very excited see if Kill Code is still able to disappoint me  ::)

Salt aside: Anyone going to GenCon who is willing to spill some beans over the product?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: KatoHearts on (16:04:46/08-02-18)
Reckless Hacking supposedly. Who needs marks?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (06:24:11/08-03-18)
Reckless Hacking supposedly. Who needs marks?

Is that part of the book? Because that would mean that someone had actually done their homework!  ;D
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: HP15BS on (11:12:48/08-03-18)
With any luck, the writers will have actually paid attention to the Technomancer Feedback thread and include at least some  of the better suggestions in there.

(Like my own  ;D
... and much of 忍's)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (11:25:17/08-03-18)
With any luck, the writers will have actually paid attention to the Technomancer Feedback thread and include at least some  of the better suggestions in there.

(Like my own  ;D
... and much of 忍's)
I'd like to say I was hopeful, but I doubt there's the complete structural overhaul that TMs need. And given the way the book was started, stopped, restarted, and then rolled into a chapter of a bigger book...

Well, we're probably looking at a patch job, like using duct tape on a leaking dam.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: HP15BS on (11:47:40/08-03-18)
With any luck, the writers will have actually paid attention to the Technomancer Feedback thread and include at least some  of the better suggestions in there.

(Like my own  ;D
... and much of 忍's)
I'd like to say I was hopeful, but I doubt there's the complete structural overhaul that TMs need. And given the way the book was started, stopped, restarted, and then rolled into a chapter of a bigger book...

Well, we're probably looking at a patch job, like using duct tape on a leaking dam.

Eh, I don't really think technos need a complete rewrite... at least no more so than the Matrix in general. It'd suffice to just to fix the bugs and give them more ways to actually be cool.

You know, free Skinlink, the ability to make a PAN with your living persona, submerge once for a Suite of Resonance Programs, etc.

Edit:  More options for sustaining CFs, echoes that scale with submersion grade, (mages get all of that; why can't TMs?  :'( ), free smartlink compatibility...

      Ooh! I just thought of another cool techno ability. Here's the gist of it:
Targeting Detection
   
   Technomancers with this echo can passively detect when any kind of targeting sensors focus on their own bodies (or any device they have a direct connection with, or are currently jumped in to), and may even observe some of the calculations being made. This applies to the targeting systems of drones and other vehicles, as well as to all manner of smartguns. Your living persona must be online in order to use this passive ability.
   Make a Resonance + Submersion Grade test for each device targeting you. Your hits determine how much information you detect.
. . .
- Alternatively, this could use Res + E-War for the test....
. . .
Smartlink Appropriation
Target: Device
Duration: P
Fading: L-2
. . .
+1 defense / net hit...
. . .
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: on (19:48:23/08-03-18)
With any luck, the writers will have actually paid attention to the Technomancer Feedback thread and include at least some  of the better suggestions in there.

(Like my own  ;D
... and much of 忍's)
Daw thank you :D
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Highwayman on (07:47:16/08-04-18)
Hope you folks like reading it as much as I liked contributing to it.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (22:35:01/08-04-18)
Hope you folks like reading it as much as I liked contributing to it.

Tell me more... :D
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: HP15BS on (23:01:36/08-04-18)
Hope you folks like reading it as much as I liked contributing to it.

But did you like contributing to it as much as we liked pretending we could contribute to it in the "feedback for a new book" thread?
 ;)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: ShadowMaster on (22:09:16/08-05-18)
Anyone pick up Killcode at gencon wanna comment on it?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: KatoHearts on (22:23:55/08-05-18)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/94wkfq/kill_code_a_review/
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (23:39:09/08-05-18)
Well, that makes me moderately more hopeful than I was.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (00:28:17/08-06-18)
Adzling you been holding out on us?  :'(
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (00:32:47/08-06-18)
I hope 40 pages is enough to fix the Archetype. :\
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (10:54:06/08-06-18)
I hope 40 pages is enough to fix the Archetype. :\
Depends on the 40 pages. If it is 40 pages of 'throw out the core book, we rebuilt it to not suck', then yes. But with the current writing style, you're probably looking at maybe 5-10 pages worth of crunch and the rest fluffy padding. And we can't judge the quality of the 40 pages, because the reviewer admittedly isn't a TM player. The size of the TM section offers some hope, but experience to date with 5e suggests that it will be a 40 page bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (11:05:59/08-06-18)
Adzling you been holding out on us?  :'(

im always holding out mate ;-)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (12:02:48/08-06-18)
You wouldn't happen to know when the Kill Code pdf hits the market?

I've got some time and good weather to spend in a hammock reading...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:12:42/08-06-18)
Does this clean up / codify the PAN / Device Interaction / Wireless / Noise rules?

If not, then adding more options to increase Noise (the ammo and grenades mentioned in that Reddit review) only makes the game worse, not better.

Also, another potential red-flag is the fact that this book may pull Technos out of the porta potty...  However it seems to have firmly buried the Rigger there with the Machinist Resonance Stream.
Can we get a book that fixes Rigger now?  :P
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (14:22:28/08-06-18)
You wouldn't happen to know when the Kill Code pdf hits the market?

I've got some time and good weather to spend in a hammock reading...
I've asked a couple of times, but nothing yet.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Bull on (14:50:51/08-06-18)
You wouldn't happen to know when the Kill Code pdf hits the market?

I've got some time and good weather to spend in a hammock reading...
I've asked a couple of times, but nothing yet.

Keep in mind that it was Gen Con this weekend.  And Gen Con is a black hole that devours everything at CGL from the moment Origins ends to at least a few days after the show.  Due to booth teardown times and such, no one at CGL even leaves Indianapolis until sometime today (Monday). 

I expect we'll see it, but possibly not till the end of the week depending on how much of a coma everyone is in.

(Seriously, if you've never worked a con, you cannot imagine how bloody exhausting Gen Con is.)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: TonyK on (15:24:57/08-06-18)

Keep in mind that it was Gen Con this weekend.  And Gen Con is a black hole that devours everything at CGL from the moment Origins ends to at least a few days after the show.  Due to booth teardown times and such, no one at CGL even leaves Indianapolis until sometime today (Monday). 

I expect we'll see it, but possibly not till the end of the week depending on how much of a coma everyone is in.

(Seriously, if you've never worked a con, you cannot imagine how bloody exhausting Gen Con is.)
Counter-argument is that Shattered Fortress for BattleTech was in the same announcement, and the PDF version dropped over the weekend.  Apples to oranges, I know, but it's a data point.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: on (16:10:49/08-06-18)
I think that just speaks for the teams within CGL and not it as a whole. It seems the Battletech people have there stuff together.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (16:12:57/08-06-18)
Eh, as long as they don't fuck up the index I can wait until the weekend...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: TeOdio on (16:24:24/08-06-18)
Index, LOL...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:24:13/08-06-18)
I think that just speaks for the teams within CGL and not it as a whole. It seems the Battletech people have there stuff together.
Could we not turn even 'when will the pdf come out' into an insult-match please. -_- There's no point in constant talking trash.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Bull on (18:48:13/08-06-18)

Counter-argument is that Shattered Fortress for BattleTech was in the same announcement, and the PDF version dropped over the weekend.  Apples to oranges, I know, but it's a data point.

I'm pretty sure CGL Upper management likes BT way more than SR, and it gets way more love from them. ;)

But also, and more seriously, different line devs, time tables, and IIRC different people responsible for uploading the PDFs to the web shop and Drive Thru. 

<shrug>

That, or its divine punishment for the epic bitching about TMs ;)  <grin>
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (19:24:12/08-06-18)
That, or its divine punishment for the epic bitching about TMs ;)  <grin>


BULLLL... Why is it when you post in one my threads I keep ending up getting upset with you?
I totally understand the post con issue, and I totally get why I don't expect to see the book until sometime next week. No big thing. But lets be real for sec here. This has been an issue for more then 3 years. There was a whole book that could have fixed this issue, heck we got 2 alchemy update and even a new system release in that time period no one asked for. That feedback thread is so old, I have friend who's marriages and kids that are younger then it. It was not unreasonable in anyway to have expected a fix for something that anyone who thoroughly read the core must have known was going to be a problem and some folks must known well before the core was even released.

I support SR b/c like you, I love the game, But do not blame the fans because we wanted fix for one of the biggest known issue in the whole of the current edition.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (00:53:57/08-07-18)
That, or its divine punishment for the epic bitching about TMs ;)  <grin>
An act of GOD, eh? Damn G-men!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: TonyK on (10:07:42/08-07-18)
Frankly, if it's a business judgment issue, I'm okay waiting a bit longer.  I was reading Designers & Dragons, and it's amazing how the much the history of the RPG industry is littered with companies overextending themselves.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:41:37/08-07-18)
There's no point in constant talking trash.

You don't want people acting (US) presidentially on the forums?  :P
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (15:05:06/08-07-18)
There's no point in constant talking trash.

You don't want people acting (US) presidentially on the forums?  :P
FYI, best to keep RL politics and religious talk off the forums unless it is relevant, and then make sure to keep it civil.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (18:43:11/08-08-18)
Whatever.

I'm not going to stoop to writing for the least common denominator at all times.  If the least common denominator wants to get their panties in a knot over it, that isn't my problem.

Now, if I start directing political comments at posters (such as Libtards, MAGAts, Trumpkins, etc.) OR condescendingly and insultingly starting a quoted reply with "FYI," feel free to spout your unsolicited advice about how you demand everyone on the internet behaves for your benefit.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (19:27:38/08-08-18)
With as much Southerness as I can muster, let me say to you, "Bless your heart."

That was not a demand, but a suggestion and a warning that RL politics and religion draws in the admins, and they have nice, shiny banhammers ready for people who do such things. I was trying to be nice to you, but by all means, ignore the warning.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (19:42:44/08-08-18)
FYI, best to keep RL politics and religious talk off the forums unless it is relevant, and then make sure to keep it civil.

Now I'm totally agreeing with Mirikon. What is blue blazes is the world coming too? First Bamce and now Mirikon.
I should get checked CFD or something.

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (19:47:45/08-08-18)
Whatever.

I'm not going to stoop to writing for the least common denominator at all times.  If the least common denominator wants to get their panties in a knot over it, that isn't my problem.

Now, if I start directing political comments at posters (such as Libtards, MAGAts, Trumpkins, etc.) OR condescendingly and insultingly starting a quoted reply with "FYI," feel free to spout your unsolicited advice about how you demand everyone on the internet behaves for your benefit.

You're still here? I thought you went away? If your not going to read 5th edition, we really aren't going to have a lot talk about.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Bull on (19:52:11/08-08-18)
That, or its divine punishment for the epic bitching about TMs ;)  <grin>


BULLLL... Why is it when you post in one my threads I keep ending up getting upset with you?
I totally understand the post con issue, and I totally get why I don't expect to see the book until sometime next week. No big thing. But lets be real for sec here. This has been an issue for more then 3 years. There was a whole book that could have fixed this issue, heck we got 2 alchemy update and even a new system release in that time period no one asked for. That feedback thread is so old, I have friend who's marriages and kids that are younger then it. It was not unreasonable in anyway to have expected a fix for something that anyone who thoroughly read the core must have known was going to be a problem and some folks must known well before the core was even released.

I support SR b/c like you, I love the game, But do not blame the fans because we wanted fix for one of the biggest known issue in the whole of the current edition.


Just to be clear, that was intended solely tongue in cheek.  Hence the winky smiley and the <grin> tag. 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (21:00:46/08-08-18)
You're still here? I thought you went away? If your not going to read 5th edition, we really aren't going to have a lot talk about.

Where do you keep pulling this stuff out of?

Went away?

Not reading 5th?

Are you deliberately trolling?  Or are you behind on medication or something?  'Cause with the rep of these forums, I have to assume the former.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: FastJack on (21:14:22/08-08-18)
Everyone cool your jets for a bit, before we have to start using moderation powers for more than Spammers with Pokemon codes (that don't work, gd it!)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (21:54:27/08-08-18)
Everyone cool your jets for a bit, before we have to start using moderation powers for more than Spammers with Pokemon codes (that don't work, gd it!)

Ok, ok I'll be good, just a little fish not worth the time. So none of those codes worked? What kinda crappy russian bots are these? At least they could post russian models or something.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (22:50:56/08-08-18)
FYI, best to keep RL politics and religious talk off the forums unless it is relevant, and then make sure to keep it civil.

Now I'm totally agreeing with Mirikon. What is blue blazes is the world coming too? First Bamce and now Mirikon.
I should get checked CFD or something.
Difference between enjoying different playstyles and knowing the limits of what is acceptable on the forums. ;)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:25:18/08-09-18)
I was hoping to get my digital hands on this before a game I have tonight, but so far it is not on DriveThruRPG or the Catalyst Store.

Oh well, I'll have to keep daydreaming about doing something Matrix-y in combat as a Decker without MARKs for at least another week.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (16:18:37/08-09-18)
I was hoping to get my digital hands on this before a game I have tonight, but so far it is not on DriveThruRPG or the Catalyst Store.

Oh well, I'll have to keep daydreaming about doing something Matrix-y in combat as a Decker without MARKs for at least another week.

If memory serves, Catalyst is located on the West coast... its only 1:15pm here. Plenty of time left before a 5pm upload deadline... If such a small company has an upload deadline.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Opti on (17:15:18/08-09-18)
think closer to september...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: LazloZingo on (18:04:48/08-09-18)
think closer to september...

Any idea when the dead tree version should hit stores?

Thanks Opti!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: 1new6 on (18:29:55/08-09-18)
I have to ask, why the massive delay on the pdf/book (assuming of course Opti wasn't being sarcastic and I'm not just being a moron)? If the actual book was being sold at gen con why wait so long to sell it to a wide audience. I understand a week or so to get it into stores, but almost a month? That seems like it would be a massive waste of resources. Was it just bad planning?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (18:51:39/08-09-18)
September huh?
Wow. I assume they have some logical reason for not wanting our money right now.
But man that's very frustrating. Better to know now then later i guess?
 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (19:07:19/08-09-18)
I have to ask, why the massive delay on the pdf/book (assuming of course Opti wasn't being sarcastic and I'm not just being a moron)? If the actual book was being sold at gen con why wait so long to sell it to a wide audience. I understand a week or so to get it into stores, but almost a month? That seems like it would be a massive waste of resources. Was it just bad planning?
Well, depends on how much lead time there was between the book being ready to print, and GenCon. If it was, say, enough time that they could get a small run off in time to sell at the con, but the longer runs for actual distribution weren't ready, and they then need to filter through their distributors, to the stores, and so on... Especially if they missed a deadline to be included in distributor catalogs that went to the local stores so they could order the books...

Yeah, I could see a month wait on the dead tree versions. The delay on the PDF version, then, would be an attempt to have the PDF come out closer to when the dead trees would be hitting stores.

But that's just my wild guess.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:53:25/08-09-18)
think closer to september...

Ouch...

That is what I get for getting excited about a product.  Let's hope the excitement holds long enough.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (20:15:23/08-09-18)
think closer to september...

Ouch...

That is what I get for getting excited about a product.  Let's hope the excitement holds long enough.

Just hold your breath till in comes out!


Won't make it any faster really, but unconsciousness makes time move faster :D
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (00:43:23/08-10-18)
Well, that would be a really good opportunity to clean up the PDF and correct any known errors (like those the review on reddit pointed out).
Maybe give Sphinx here a sneak preview - they are usually very diligent compiling error lists...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (02:04:59/08-10-18)
Eh I think take break for a couple weeks until it releases. New job starts Monday, and I have 2 other things I wanna finish writing.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (08:50:04/08-10-18)
think closer to september...

Ouch...

That is what I get for getting excited about a product.  Let's hope the excitement holds long enough.

Just hold your breath till in comes out!


Won't make it any faster really, but unconsciousness makes time move faster :D

Heh!  Sounds like my college years, so long ago...  :P

At least I can stop mashing my F5 key reloading the DriveThruRPG page...


To pass the time, here are the things I would like to see.  (Not expect to see.)


That is some of the things I'd like to see in the "Matrix 101" section (that is what the reddit review called it, not sure that is the actual section title).
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: living on (15:50:36/08-10-18)
any news?

i have forgotten how many years i wait...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (18:30:21/08-10-18)
any news?

i have forgotten how many years i wait...

Then a little won't hurt will it :p

(No new news)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: living on (06:50:05/08-11-18)
well... after getting bored of waiting, stop playing like 6 month ago (which made my playgroup stop playing) and just ignore it, now after the gencon announcment im excited again, want to restart the playgroup etc. and find me just waiting again.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Rip Cord on (14:17:35/08-11-18)
I have Kill Code in hand.

There is a really good description of the Matrix.
Then New tech from Matrix damaging bullets to Create your own Deck.
The Technomancer chapter is crazy. It has  4 types of Technomancer: Thread,  Sprite, Drone and a Technoadept. They have Paragons that are basically Guardian Spirits and all sorts of options for sprites, threads and more submersions.
It gives a lot of options that are reflections of Magic Users.
There are whole chapters on technocritters and Matrix entities that reflect the Metaplanar spirits.
Finally, it has a very detailed Table of Contents and a Rules Index!!!

My only complaint is that it has a number of clerical errors. They are minor, but annoy me.

I have only skimmed it and focused on parts that caught my eye (maybe 2 or 3 hours of reading), but this is the first Source Book I plan to read cover to cover.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Telin on (17:31:49/08-11-18)
Hey Iron Serpent Prince,
Quote
Just what the Wrapper program is supposed to do:  This may be more of an errata item, but RAW the wrapper program seems pretty useless.  Which leads into...
I don't really understand how you think it is useless...

From SR5 CRB (246)
Quote
Wrapper: This program overrides the Matrix’s protocols for icons. While this program is running, your icons can be anything you want them to be when you use the Change Icon action. From the lens of the Matrix, your Hammer program could look like a music file, your Ares Predator icon could look like a credstick, and your own persona could look like a Mitsubishi Nightsky. Another persona can see what the disguised icon really is with a Matrix Perception Test, but they need to at least suspect enough to check (Matrix Perception, p. 241).

I suppose, as with most things Decker/'Mancer, it depends on how out the box you think, or how much your GM will let you get away with. RAW though, it is pretty potent as it applies to an icon. Which is everything in the matrix.
SR5 CRB (216)
Quote
icon: The virtual representation of a device, persona, file, or host, in the Matrix.
The real limit here is that you must be allowed to perform a Change Icon action on the Icon. Which for a few marks...(2: Control Device, or Puppeteer)
For example:


You can make ANY icon appear to be ANY other type of Icon... The limits here are whatever you can think of...

Somewhat confusing,by my take, is the interaction of the new icon with the safety protocols of the matrix. Specifically, this part in SR5 CRB (219):
Quote
Some devices are not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless device that might kill you—it will show up separately so that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll be covered later.

So by default, if I have a gun on my person and I have it in my PAN, I still have two Icons. My PAN and my Gun. With Wrapper I could disguise the gun as an insulin pump. Since an Insulin pump isn't going to kill you, I now have 1 Icon (My PAN) and nothing is running silent, if your GM allows this. So a matrix perception with the question of: "Are there any Icons running silent?" turns up a no for me...

On the other hand, if the gun is hardwired, or programmed to always display the icon, then that's another thing. But also opens up to being modified with a Software, or Hardware test... for which there are no rules on in the books, as far as I know... so... :shrug:
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (12:24:19/08-12-18)
So what is it to spot that it is fake(wrapper). Away from book, but I recall it said it only stands up to a casual glance at best.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (12:44:22/08-12-18)
So what is it to spot that it is fake(wrapper). Away from book, but I recall it said it only stands up to a casual glance at best.
Matrix Perception. But they have to actually make a Matrix Perception test on the icon. Which means that if you make the icon look like it belongs, people are less likely to actively check it out.

Put it this way, if you're at coffee shop, are you going to pay much attention to an icon that says it is a coffeemaker when you're looking for commlinks? The key to using Wrapper is to make the icon look like something that is supposed to be there, so that people and programs are more likely to ignore it.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (12:47:41/08-12-18)
It's the D&D Illusion conundrum writ into VR. If you function in AR almost all the time. How many icons a day do you think you would see? How many adds do you see when you read your Gmail? Or Facebook? or even just run a google search. Odds are you wouldn't even notice them, like adds your brain learns to just not even pay them attention.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (13:18:30/08-12-18)
People tend to filter out types of icons too, so they don't get overwhelmed. If that Spider is known to not look for Underwear or Potted Plants, because those are everywhere in the frickin' facility, then you could be a moving potted plant.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Lorebane24 on (13:22:29/08-12-18)
Clever use of wrapper, if the GM is playing the NPCs realistically, can be kind of nuts.  I was in a game once were our party survived a prison plane crash and then had to do battle with the guards amongst the wreckage.  My decker zoned out behind a big piece of debris and used wrapper to make his icon look like one of the many guard-issue sidearms that were littered about the crash scene.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:34:24/08-12-18)
@Telin, lets break down all the ways that Wrapper is a waste of word count - as written.

If you want to change the way an Icon looks, use Change Icon.

The only reason to do otherwise is if you want to smuggle an item with a digital signature somewhere it doesn't belong.

Wireless off.  Cheaper, easier, and doesn't leave you open to anything else in this post.

If, for some unfathomable reason, Wireless off isn't practical, use Universal Mirror Material.  The most obvious use for what Wrapper should do is hiding a weapon.  Line your Concealable Quick-draw Holster with Rating 2 Universal Mirror Material, and your weapon is effectively offline until drawn.  A pistol shouldn't require a square meter, so you should be able to get it for cheaper than the ¥500 base cost.  Even if not, that is a small investment for Wirelessly concealing your gun until drawn.

Continuing with using Wrapper though...

"Security through obscurity isn't any security at all."

So, you are running Wrapper.  Guess what?  Those chokepoints/checkpoints you are trying to smuggle your item through?  Those can easily use Matrix Perception - Devices running Wrapper.  Depending on your particular GMs call, it could be spotted automatically if within 100m.  It may require a test.  Again, depending on your GMs call, it may be as easy as a single hit.

Now, the security there knows that person right there is running Wrapper.  Even if you argue that they can only perform one Matrix Perception per Combat Turn, that is still 20 Icons observed every minute.  With each Icon, they perform Matrix Perception - What are you?  It only takes 1 hit to realize what the Icon type really is.  So that gerbil in your pocket really is a weapon / heavy pistol / whatever your GM rules the Matrix returns the description as.

Now we get to the really problematic part of Wrapper.

It violates Matrix Protocols.

So?

Well, when you perform Sleaze actions, you generate Overwatch Score.  When you perform Attack actions, you generate Overwatch Score.  Why?  Because you are violating Matrix Protocols.

Wrapper should generate Overwatch Score.  It doesn't.  So then either it can't be violating Matrix Protocols (and can't really work as written), or it opens up a way to adapt to violate all other Matrix Protocols without generating Overwatch Score.

Then there is the fundamental problem with the way it interacts with Matrix Perception.  Matrix Perception isn't like a real sense.  Matrix Perception is what the Matrix tells you the device / object / Icon is.  So, if an observer can "see" through Wrapper, that means the Matrix can too.  In order for an observer to be able to get what the device really is when the Icon looks differently, that means the Matrix already "knows" the device isn't what it looks like.  That means Wrapper isn't fooling anyone.

Wrapper is a drek burger wrapped in sewage bun.  It is poorly thought out, and poorly written.  It just doesn't work in the paradigm that is the Matrix as written.  If it works at all, it should generate Overwatch Score.

Either that, or the Matrix just doesn't work as it is written.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Xenon on (16:57:32/08-12-18)
I can't find anything supporting that you may use matrix perception to get a list of all icons in the vicinity that have an illegal icon. Where did that idea originate from??


You may use Matrix Perception to Spot "one" specific device that you (for some reason or another) "know" about.
- If the device is running silent then it get to oppose the test.
- If it is not running silent and is within 100 meters then you automatically spot it.

The Matrix Perception test will not be fooled by Change Icon (or Change Icon with Wrapper). If you see a Nissan Jackrabbit 200 meter down the street and successfully take a matrix perception test to spot its Icon you will spot it's icon. It doesn't matter if the icon in this case have an appearance of a Mitsubishi Nightsky.


You may also use Matrix Perception to ask "questions" about "one" specific icon.
- If you (for whatever reason) suspect that the specific icon is using a non-standard (or even illegal) appearance then you may use one of your net hits to find out what the icon really is.
- For example, if you walk pass a Nissan Jackrabbit you might notice that it's augmented reality overlay tells you it is a Mitsubishi Nightsky. This in turn might be reason enough to suspect that the device is not using a standard appearance.



Change Icon can be useful in that it let you blend in
(Look like you belong; "If you’re going into a crowded host, for example, why run silent?")

Wrapper can be useful in that it let you hide things that normally stick out
(Ninjas often disguised themselves as regular peasants; "The best place to hide a rock is in a pile of rocks")
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Telin on (18:29:17/08-12-18)
@Iron Serpent Prince

Firstly, all great points. However, I think there are a few things you've overlooked. In my opinion.

1: Wireless off
Yes, you are right, turning wireless off is a great way to sneak items into an area where there are no MAG-scans but there is security around.
However, to say that it is unfathomable to have a reason to need the item connected to the wireless is shortsighted. The explosive connected to the comlink, for example. If we needed to control when the detonation was going to occur (say, with no one in the room), then we couldn't just have it turned off, or on a timer. I mean, if you really want to make sure that NO ONE is going to access a thing...Faraday Cage.

As for Change Icon. Yes, I can change Icon, but there are specific things I can't do with that action alone. I can make a gun look like a weapon, a file look like a scroll...all the normal stuff. However, the icon must give a clue as to what the icon does (In the case of Devices)...
(SR5 CRB (219)
Quote
Basic Matrix protocols require device icons to provide some hint of their real-life function. A firearm’s icon looks like a weapon (even if that weapon is a tomahawk, like the icon of the Super Warhawk pistol), a vehicle’s icon looks like a vehicle, a lock’s icon looks like a lock, a refrigerator looks like a cold box for food, etc. The restrictions on devices aren’t as stringent as on personas, as long as form suggests function at a glance.
)
So without wrapper I can't make a Pred. V look like a music file...

As for matrix perception, well this gets a little...specific. I'll get to that in a moment. For now though, the matrix protocols.

The issue here is that it might violate protocols. Sleaze actions, and Attack actions generate OS, but Data Processing doesn't. Change Icon is a DP action, thus no OS. The question is: what does wrapper do to allow these icon changes. Does it skip the validation step in the Change Icon action, thus the Matrix doesn't know anything wrong has happened? Does it just tell the Matrix, 'Hey, it's this thing just trust me.'? Does it just put the item in a Virtual WAN? Truth is, it doesn't matter.

Because it's a DP action thus it doesn't generate OS, and the effect is: The Icon can now be anything you want it to be.

As for matrix perception, the thing here is that yes, you need 1 hit to ID 1 icon as being wrapped.

SR5 CRB (235)
Quote
When you take a Matrix Perception action, each hit can reveal one piece of information you ask of your gamemaster. Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you. It’s not an exhaustive list, but it should give you a pretty good idea about how to use Matrix Perception:
• Spot a target icon you’re looking for.
• The most recent edit date of a file.
• The number of boxes of Matrix damage on the target’s Condition Monitor.
• The presence of a data bomb on a file.
• The programs being run by a persona.
• The target’s device rating.
• The target’s commode.
• The rating of one of the target’s Matrix attributes.
• The type of icon (host, persona, device, file), if it is using a non-standard (or even illegal) look.
• Whether a file is protected, and at what rating.
• The grid a persona, device, or host is using.
• If you’re out on the grid, whether there is an icon running silent within 100 meters.
• If you’re in a host, whether there is an icon running silent in the host.
• If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).
• The last Matrix action an icon performed, and when.
• The marks on an icon, but not their owners.

The bolded action is what allows you to discover the wrapped Icon. You mentioned the underlined one as well. And that is a good point as well. However, my three counter points as as follows.


To kind of elaborate on the first two points:
If your GM decides to, yeah you see every icon within a pan within 100 yards...great, PANs are kinda pointless with clutter-cleanup. Oh well.
How often do you try and drive your toaster to work? How often do you try to change the channel of your oven? These sound silly but that is essentially what the Persona->Program question is when used on a non-persona icon. 100 times out of 101 the answer is going to be none. That being said, the one time your toaster gets you to work, that raises more questions than answers.

For the last one, it's a numbers game.
SR5 CRB (241)
Quote
MATRIX PERCEPTION
(COMPLEX ACTION)
Marks Required: none
Test: Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] (v. Logic + Sleaze)
This versatile and important action is used both for finding icons in the Matrix and for analyzing Matrix objects. When you use this action to analyze a Matrix object or scan the vicinity for silent-running icons, you make a Simple Test and your hits determine how much info you get. For each net hit scored, you can ask for one piece of information about the object—this could be type, a rating, how many marks it has on it, any files it may be carrying, which grid it is using, whether any silent running icons are in the area, or any other pertinent Matrix information. You learn one fact per net hit. If you get a list of marks, you can only recognize marks you have seen before or marks left by personas that you have marks on yourself. Otherwise you only get a count. If you’re trying to spot an icon that is farther than 100 meters away, this is a Simple Test: the first hit lets you spot the target, and any additional hits can be used to get more information about it as mentioned above. If you’re looking for an icon that is running silent (after you’ve determined that it’s present), the test becomes an Opposed Test, with the target defending with Logic + Sleaze. Net hits are used just like you would for spotting distant targets, with the first one for spotting the target and the rest for analysis.

Bolded text is the important thing. If when I walk into a building and the Sec-officer walks up to me immediately and wants to know why I have a wrapped icon...I am calling bullshit to the GM. Unless I am in the middle of an empty Faraday caged room and it is only me a spider and a sec-officer. There are going to be hundreds or thousands (or more) icons to scan, and each one requires a complex action.

For the scenario where I am stopped the moment I walk in the door means that as I walked in the Spider looked at everyone in the room, saw my wrapped icon, Matrix perception'd it, asked 'Are you wrapped?' and then told the Guard this was the case. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Yes you are right, the checkpoints and choke points could have a guy there doing nothing but Matrix Perceptions all day, however my counter argument to that is three fold:
1: That is a mind numbing job that eventually the guy hired to do it is going to slack off...
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/6bduwu/lets_talk_about_rule_zero_shadowrunners_exist/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/6bduwu/lets_talk_about_rule_zero_shadowrunners_exist/)
3: That isn't fun for the players.

Maybe this is just me and my group of players, or not. However at the end of the day the players should accomplish their goals.

The first game I was in my GM was starting up and we had a simple run. Essentially steal A for B for profit. (I can't even really remember why, or who) What I do remember is that in our leg work the Gun-bunny Street Sam got impatient shot a guy we were looking for, which set us off being chased by the police through all of Seattle before we ducked the car under an over pass and blew it up with a grenade before ducking through the sewer. [Because the car was tagged in KE systems...]

My point being that while that sounds interesting...it wasn't. EVERY time we did anything we had the cops on us. We had no options. It was strangling. We were not struggling to make ends meet, we were actively being pushed down and suffocated.

Quite simply: Wrapper isn't crap. It is a tool with a specific purpose and uses, and sometime there are better ways, and sometimes there aren't...

You are attempting to create a false dichotomy, intentionally or otherwise. Wrapper doesn't generate OS (nothing said it does), it does work as written (Icon does change), and it can work within the matrix as written.

My only issue with how Wrapper interacts with the matrix is the part I pointed out: does a wrapped gun still show up as dangerous--thus always there--or not? (Which I would argue not personally...)

Also, Is your name a reference to Exalted? Cause it sounds like it...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (10:35:53/08-13-18)
Also, Is your name a reference to Exalted? Cause it sounds like it...

No, but now that you mention it it would totally fit.  It is taken from a Gnome Decker character I made that followed the Wuxia Code of Honor.  I rolled randomly three times on the lists I found of the 108 Stars of Destiny.  If I recall correctly, I rolled up Iron Prince Serpent and thought that didn’t have a good ring to it so I switched it to Iron Serpent Prince.  Only afterwards did I realize that the characters monogram was ISP and that was a pretty good pun for a Decker.

The issue here is that it might violate protocols.

The thing is, Wrapper says that is violates Matrix protocols.  Right in the description.

Quote from: Core book, Page 246
Wrapper: This program overrides the Matrix’s protocols for icons. While this program is running, your icons can be anything you want them to be when you use the Change Icon action.

Any other time a character messes with Matrix protocols, they generate OS.  I mean, even just checking your OS generates OS…




As for the Matrix Perception.

There are several people, some right here on these forums, who describe Matrix Perception as akin to setting “filters” on searches.  And that is (or at least should be) a really good description.  Listing, or “spotting”  if you prefer, the Icon you are looking for is very similar to doing queries on a computer.  Funny that.

As such, something like:

“ls -l /dev/*.wrapper”

Would totally be a thing.  I mean if you can forgive me mashing up OOP with *nix style CLI.

For the Matrix to function, it has to track several things.  Every Icon has to have a unique ID of some sort.  I admit I default to thinking of it as an alpha numeric string, but it could be anything.  The Matrix just has to be able to access it, even if users normally don’t interact with it.  This way the Matrix “knows” that that Renraku Sensei is completely different than this Renraku Sensei even if everything else is the same.  Let’s assume there is a way to clone commcode just to make this simpler.
On top of this ID, the Matrix has to track location data, and Icon type.  It probably also tracks everything you can pull from a Matrix Perception test just to save it from having to query all the Icons in the world every time someone does a Matrix Perception…  But that isn’t certain.
The Matrix pipes all of this data, along with any specific appearance alteration code, into a persons Deck and / or comm.  Technically, it is being piped into every device with a Data Processing rating (all of them), but most people don’t use their cyberfinger to do Matrix Searches…
The device then uses all that raw data to overlay / generate the view of the receiving person.

That means the device has received all of the data already, even if the user doesn’t normally interact with it.

In a very simplified way, all of this data can be considered key:value pairs.  Obviously it is more complex than simple key:value pairs.  The concept still holds.  Anyone who has worked with any form of database; relational, graphical, whatever, can tell you that any information you can pull out can also be used as a search term.

No matter the structure of the Matrix, the functionality is the same.  It stores information, and characters pull that information out as they see fit.  If you can get the commcode of a device with a Matrix Perception check, you can also use that information as a search term.  As in “I want to spot that icon with the commcode of <fill in the blank>”

As such, “I want to see the Icons running Wrapper” has to also be a viable Matrix Perception check.

If the Matrix doesn’t work the same as modern systems, I’m talking about on a functional level – not necessarily foundational (no pun intended) level, then that has to be specifically pointed out to players so that they have a chance to know that their understanding of their world differs from the game world.
It would be like if the world of Shadowrun didn’t have gravity and instead had anti-gravity.  The players need to know that if their characters aren’t actively trying to stay on the ground, they would float up into the atmosphere, and eventually into space.

Even if all of this doesn’t hold up.  That only changes the methodology.

It then changes to security doing Matrix Perception – Spot Deck Icon on each person, using 1 hit to get a list of running programs.  If one of those happens to be Wrapper, then not only is the person potentially committing a crime (it is a Hacking Program, and therefor needs a valid license to use) and can be detained right there, they are also hiding something.  And then we are right back where I said that the security will start inspecting each Icon to see what the Wrapper user is hiding.

And after all of this….  Even if everyone's view of the Matrix hasn't changed, the last three or so posts should make it pretty obvious that the whole Matrix Perception / Matrix / Icon interaction ball of wax could use some cleaning up.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Xenon on (11:54:44/08-13-18)
The thing is, Wrapper says that is violates Matrix protocols.  Right in the description.
Data Processing actions does not generate overwatch score. Only Attack actions and Sleaze actions do. Change Icon is a  Data Processing action. Change Icon only change the appearance of the Icon. Even if you are running wrapper you are still only changing the appearance of the Icon (the only difference is that without wrapper the appearance of your gun still need to be a weapon of sorts while with wrapper your gun can be whatever you like it to be - it doesn't even need to be a device). From a matrix point of view (at least far as the Grid Overwatch Division is concerned) violating matrix protocols in this manner is not considered an illegal action.

SR5 p. 232 Overwatch Score
The moment you perform an illegal action (Attack or Sleaze), you get an Overwatch Score, or OS, that your gamemaster uses to track how much evidence you’ve been leaving in your wake. When you perform an Attack or Sleaze action, your OS increases by the number of hits the target gets on its defense test.

SR5 p. 246 Wrapper
While this program is running, your icons can be anything you want them to be when you use the Change Icon action.

SR5 p. 238 Change Icon
Test: none (Data Processing action)


For the Matrix to function...
You are making a lot of assumptions now.
Assumptions that might or might not be correct.


The Matrix pipes all of this data, along with any specific appearance alteration code, into a persons Deck
Actually, if you have Direct Neural Interface then your mind will interface directly with devices around you.

SR5 p. 222 Direct Neural Interface
A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices.


This is the reason why, if you have DNI that is, you no longer need things like earbuds or image links to hear or see augmented reality objects located on devices around you.

SR5 p. 222 Direct Neural Interface
DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects.


If you can get the commcode of a device with a Matrix Perception check, you can also use that information as a search term.  As in “I want to spot that icon with the commcode of <fill in the blank>”
Yes....

* You may use Matrix Perception to Spot "one" specific device that you (for some reason or another) "know" about.
* You may also use Matrix Perception to ask "questions" about "one" specific icon.


As such, “I want to see the Icons running Wrapper” has to also be a viable Matrix Perception check.
Now you are assuming stuff again ;-)


If you spot a specific icon that you have reason to believe is not using a standard appearance then you may use one of your net hits from a matrix perception test to check what it really is.

SR5 p. 246 Wrapper
Another persona can see what the disguised icon really is with a Matrix Perception Test, but they need to at least suspect enough to check (Matrix Perception, p. 241).


Spot Deck Icon on each person...
While the deck is in use it's device icon is merged into a persona icon.
You could even go so far as saying that it no longer exist within the matrix as long as the owner is using it.

SR5 p. 235 Persona
When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out.


But yes, you may use one of your net hits from a matrix perception test to see cyberprogams being run by a persona.

SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception (red box)
* The programs being run by a persona.


If one of those happens to be Wrapper, then not only is the person potentially committing a crime...
In this edition cyberdecks are not forbidden devices (as they were in earlier editions)
Hacking programs, such as wrapper, are also not forbidden software.
As you pointed out yourself, the player might very well have have a [fake] license.


And then we are right back where I said that the security will start inspecting each Icon to see what the Wrapper user is hiding.
Eh....

With this line of thinking you may also let security start body searching characters that broadcast a [fake] SIN which also happen to have a [fake] license to carry a concealed weapon (because weapons may be used in future crimes and if they are concealing a weapon then they might also be concealing something else!).

Iron Serpent Prince....
It is not the GMs job to "win" against the players ;-)


edit: adding page references and fixing a few typos
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:34:12/08-13-18)
You are making a lot of assumptions now.
Now you are assuming stuff again ;-)

Of course.  Because players are counted on to be bringing in the basic assumption that a game world functions and acts just like their world.

If for no other reason that is saves on word count.

If a player is supposed to enter a game forgetting all they know and the game system then has to point out everything that functions the same in the real world, all rules systems would have to be at least three times as big.

A games' rules system has to point out when things operate differently than the world of the player.


Iron Serpent Prince....
It is not the GMs job to "win" against the players ;-)

Since when did this become about GMs doing anything to players?  Remember, the "bad guys" can use Wrapper against the players too.  If the system doesn't function in some sensible way, way even use that system?

I don't know what your whole motivation is.  It certainly isn't coming across as helpful in any way.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Xenon on (13:37:45/08-13-18)
The book tell you that if you suspect that one specific icon is not using the correct appearance then you may use matrix perception on that specific icon to find out what it really does.

You are of course free to rule that you may use matrix perception to "spot all icons in the vicinity that are using an illegal appearance" (your table, your rules), but what I am trying to tell you is that this isn't RAW and I honestly don't believe it is even close to RAI either.


Since when did this become about GMs doing anything to players? 
I thought it was clear, but maybe I need to expand on that.

If a GM decide to randomly detain my decker as he walking through a checkpoint for no other reason than I am running wrapper (which I have a license to run) when I specifically used wrapper to disguise a wireless devices in order to avoid being detained at the checkpoint in the first place then I would call BS.

Same as I would call BS if a GM detain my street samurai just because I went through the hassle to actually get a license to carry concealed firearms for my concealed firearm so I don't get detained at the security checkpoint in case they spot my concealed firearm

(I think both examples showcase the same level of "GM-abuse").

If the players find cool and interesting ways of using wrapper (or [fake] licenses or whatever) to get the job done then I think the GM should support them rather than turning their ideas against them. I don't know... maybe it is just me?


Remember, the "bad guys" can use Wrapper against the players too.
Of course the bad guys may use wrapper too! I am counting on it :)

But please recall what I said in my first post...

The Matrix Perception test will not be fooled by Change Icon (or Change Icon with Wrapper). If a bad guy is pointing an Ares Predator V at you but you successfully take a matrix perception test to spot its Icon you will spot it's icon. It doesn't matter if the device is running silent or if it's icon in this case have an appearance of a toaster or a music file.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Telin on (15:55:36/08-13-18)
Sorry, the GM abuse thing probably started with me... My intent was to demonstrate that checkpoints and the like shouldn't just spot a hidden icon...that's probably on me...

Also you are right, players are expected to bring in certain base assumptions about how the world works. That can't be avoided.

However, I have a few things to point out about the Matrix.

You need to Spend Matrix Perception Hits on an Icon to get information about that Icon.
The Matrix is not the internet.
The Matrix is run by the Big10--who all enlist Shadowrunners and their own corp. Espionage teams.

So Matrix Perception should. Now I am assuming that the rules were not written for people familiar with OOP, Networking, or the like. So Personally I assume the matrix works something akin to a Walking version of the Jurassic Park system. (It's a unix system). Spending hit is querying specific icons about available data. I can understand thinking of is as setting filters and I like aspects of that explanation as well. However, the issue is when people try to say what you did: I set a filter to show me people running wrapper, or Icons that have been wrapped.

The short version of that is: it becomes too easy to dick over players/gms. If that were the case then every Spider and Sec Guard should just run a filter that says: "I filter out everyone who doesn't have an OS, or has performed a sleaze action." Suddenly the decker is spotted the moment the decking section begins (forgive my ad absudrum).

The Matrix is not the internet. I know it is tempting to say that it is, and that it is an easy way of giving a shorthand to the things you can do in it, and the impact is has had on life in general. But remember, it only just recently became wireless... In addition there are weird things in there that don't make sense. Like Sprites and the whole Adaptive Defense thing...
SR5 CRB(254)
Quote
When a sprite’s code is analyzed, it looks like a kludgy mish-mash of code snippets and junk data that shouldn’t work but does.
(Having an issue finding the quote for the adaptive one...)

The Matrix is a beast in and of itself that no one understands.
SR5 CRB (214)
Quote
The paradox of the Matrix is this: to be an ace hacker, you need to understand it—but no one really understands it.

So here's the thing I am getting to: You can't assume that the matrix is like anything we have today. Or that the actions we are able to do on our internet are the same as those that we can do in the matrix. Yes, players want to come into the game and say: 'Ah, it's the internet run by google.' And unless they are a decker/'mancer, they are essentially right... It's the details inside that make it more or less so...

The Big 10 run the Matrix, and they have Shadowrunners and Industrial Espionage teams attempting to break it in the same way. I think this is pretty self-explanatory, but just in case... they want the matrix to be safe enough that they can advertise it as such, but at the same time allow enough leeway to get what they want--either legally or illegally. That being said, they wouldn't allow something as easy as all objects constantly broadcast their locations. It would sabotage their shadow operations... (just as an example)

I hope this clears up my perspective.

Also: ISP is a great name for a decker.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (17:13:05/08-13-18)
I can understand thinking of is as setting filters and I like aspects of that explanation as well. However, the issue is when people try to say what you did: I set a filter to show me people running wrapper, or Icons that have been wrapped.

And that is part of the problem.  If, as many people (some even on these forums) have claimed, users of the Matrix can filter out Icons they don't want to view, that makes it implicit that they can filter to only what they want to view.

Let me just give an example.

Lets say some user doesn't want to see / spot / (run) people's socks Icons.  It is assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they can easily filter those out.
If that is the case, then if you filter out everything you don't want to see, you are left with what you do want to see.
To continue it further, if the user filters out socks, shoes, (let's hope they can do groups like "clothing"), potted plants, etc., eventually all that is left is what they do want to see.  So that user is left viewing only commlinks, Cyberdecks, or bras if that is their thing.
At that point, if the user wants to filter it further, they filter out Cyberdecks that aren't running programs.  (There shouldn't be many, unless they are brand new in a factory.  But as a responsible user they certainly should reduce the work of the system if they can.)  Now they are only seeing Cyberdecks that are running programs.
Next filter?  Remove cyberdecks that aren't running Wrapper.
Then all there is left are Cyberdecks running Wrapper.  Security could get a Radio Shack PCD-500 running an Agent with those filters performing Matrix Perception checks all day...
Anyway, now the character (player or NPC) makes their Matrix Perception test.
Then we get into the fuzziness of how the GM should adjudicate Matrix Perception, but that can be saved for another time.

This is how information systems work.  If you can filter something out, that means you can filter for only one thing.

(forgive my ad absudrum).
Not a problem.  More anecdotal evidence that the Matrix section of the rules could use some real polishing (and I hope it is in Kill Code...  That I am still waiting for...  Frag it...)

That being said, they wouldn't allow something as easy as all objects constantly broadcast their locations. It would sabotage their shadow operations... (just as an example)

If that was meant to be a direct counter point to something I wrote, let me clear something up.  Just because the Matrix has to track the physical location of an Icon does not mean it is broadcast.  It means that the Matrix has to track it, to "know" it, so that when / if someone runs a Trace Icon on it the Matrix can actually report the location.
That, and the Matrix has to know the physical location of the Icon so that your devices can give you the proper overlay in AR / display properly in VR.
If devices / Icons don't have location data, then not only can Trace Icon not work - convergence can't either.


Also: ISP is a great name for a decker.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (17:31:17/08-13-18)
Afaik Sprites have no physical location but are still subject to convergence.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Xenon on (18:48:19/08-13-18)
At that point, if the user wants to filter it further, they filter out Cyberdecks that aren't running programs.
I was with you until this part....

First of all, a Cyberdeck that the owner is using will vanish from the matrix (see one of my previous posts). You can only spot cyberdecks that are unattended (and they will probably not run any software at all). Having said that, you might or might not be able to "mass filter" personas in the vicinity.

But to know if personas in the vicinity are running a program or not doesn't seem to be anything you can "mass filter". To know this you need to manually loop through each persona in the vicinity at random to query them one by one.

To know if icons in the vicinity have an altered appearance or not doesn't seem to be anything you can "mass filter". To know this you need to manually loop through each icon in the vicinity at random to query each individual icon one by one.

This would be a similar procedure as when icons are running silent. You might be able to "mass filter" silent running icons in the vicinity. This is enough to "know" about all the icons, but you may not take one single matrix perception test to spot all of them at once. To spot them you need to manually loop through each silent running icon in the vicinity at random to spot them one by one.


so that when / if someone runs a Trace Icon on it the Matrix can actually report the location.
Or maybe "the matrix" doesn't know where your devices are located. Maybe it is your device that knows where it is (by asking how far away it is from several devices in the vicinity that have a fixed "GPS" location). So when you (or anyone with two marks on your device) ask your device where it is (with the legal Trace Icon Data Processing action), it will respond with an accurate triangulated "GPS" location....


Afaik Sprites have no physical location but are still subject to convergence.

SR5 p. 254 Sprites
Sprites bend the rules of the Matrix just by existing. The Matrix isn’t really sure what to do with a sprite. When a sprite is compiled, its own Overwatch Score starts, even though it hasn’t had a chance to do anything illegal (it isn’t fair to the little guys, but life ain’t fair, chummer). When a demiGOD or a host converges on a sprite, it simply vanishes, even if it has tasks remaining.
....
A sprite’s owner is the technomancer that compiled it, and when you compile a sprite, it has your Resonance signature. If its physical location is tracked, the tracker gets your physical location instead; this also happens when a demiGOD converges on the hapless little sprite.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (18:56:50/08-13-18)
xclnt post Xenon.

can we move this to a more relevant thread chaps?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:18:44/08-13-18)
Or maybe "the matrix" doesn't know where your devices are located. Maybe it is your device that knows where it is (by asking how far away it is from several devices in the vicinity that have a fixed "GPS" location). So when you (or anyone with two marks on your device) ask your device where it is (with the legal Trace Icon Data Processing action), it will respond with an accurate triangulated "GPS" location....

Nope.

I know for a fact that isn't how it works.

How?  Because if that is how it worked, when someone looked at an area through AR, the Icons wouldn't be overlaid in the right physical locations since the user didn't perform Trace Icon actions.

Hence:
That, and the Matrix has to know the physical location of the Icon so that your devices can give you the proper overlay in AR / display properly in VR.


can we move this to a more relevant thread chaps?

I'd happily write about Kill Code.  Oh wait...  Other than that, this discussion was started by me posting what I hoped was in Kill Code.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: living on (19:52:30/08-13-18)

I'd happily write about Kill Code.  Oh wait...  Other than that, this discussion was started by me posting what I hoped was in Kill Code.

I'd prefere to read the ***** book...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: PingGuy on (13:13:45/08-20-18)
This is definitely going to be the next book I pick up, and I'm sticking with hardcover for now.  Time to pester the local game store about trying to order it. :)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (15:12:29/08-22-18)
<<crickets>>

Still no info on pdf or hard copy release?

Sigh...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (15:39:52/08-22-18)
<<crickets>>

Still no info on pdf or hard copy release?

Sigh...

Maybe by Christmas?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (17:03:05/08-22-18)
<<crickets>>

Still no info on pdf or hard copy release?

Sigh...

Maybe by Christmas?

Of what year? That's the important part
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (17:06:33/08-22-18)
think closer to september...

Optimistically, you've only got one more week to wait...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (17:18:50/08-22-18)
Sorry I don't know who or what everyone is here. I assumed opti was just another player such as myself and was guessing
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (22:49:29/08-22-18)
think closer to september...

Optimistically, you've only got one more week to wait...

My Optimism when comes to this book is pretty much zero. If hadn't been seen at GenCon, i would be prepared to simply call this whole thing some kind crazy conspiracy. As it stand i'm not far from just saying they made it up and Adzling is complicit in their conspiracy!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: PingGuy on (00:25:32/08-23-18)
My LGS said it wasn't listed yet to order, but that they would order it as soon as it showed up.  So as soon as I see something official I'm calling them to reserve a copy.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (09:00:10/08-23-18)
think closer to september...

Optimistically, you've only got one more week to wait...

My Optimism when comes to this book is pretty much zero. If hadn't been seen at GenCon, i would be prepared to simply call this whole thing some kind crazy conspiracy. As it stand i'm not far from just saying they made it up and Adzling is complicit in their conspiracy!
Maybe they started working on 6E and forgot to actually hit 'send'?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (09:06:04/08-23-18)
It exists, and supposedly, it´s really really good. From the spoilers I´ve seen so far, it dramatically increases the power level and usability of Technos and Matrix Specialists in general. And in a good way. Think Forbidden Arcana (hisssss....), but for Archetypes that actually needed a huge power buff and more options. 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (12:39:00/08-23-18)
It exists, and supposedly, it´s really really good. From the spoilers I´ve seen so far, it dramatically increases the power level and usability of Technos and Matrix Specialists in general. And in a good way. Think Forbidden Arcana (hisssss....), but for Archetypes that actually needed a huge power buff and more options.
So it is the 'Canadian Girlfriend' of sourcebooks?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Sphinx on (12:59:21/08-23-18)
I have a copy. It is not a miracle that fixes everything, but it is good.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: living on (06:40:05/08-24-18)
@Sphinx
you could be part of the conspiracy. myb you got paid to keep the story alive. who knows?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (09:35:33/08-24-18)
Seeing it for sale at CSI and MM, so would expect it to be hitting FLGS network anytime.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (09:55:30/08-24-18)
If by CSI you mean CoolStuffInc (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1020?&sb=releasedate|desc), and by MM you mean Miniature Market (https://www.miniaturemarket.com/role-playing-games/shadowrun.html#/?_=1&?sort.news_from_date=desc&page=1) - they don't have Kill Code listed.

(Those links are sorted by newest to oldest.)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: ShadowMaster on (13:01:37/08-24-18)
When I do a search on google for Shadowrun kill code pdf, drivethrurpg shows up with a link to kill code. Funny thing is when I click it they say it's the title is not available. So just a place holder.  :'(
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (14:08:22/08-24-18)
Kill the Code, kill the Decker, kill the 'Mancer! I'm afraid that the Black ICE dried you up! Don't even think about it, don't even think about it, no, we're hacking you! To kill the Code, kill the Decker, kill the 'Mancer! Or kill the book!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (15:52:00/08-24-18)
Season 10 mission: 4 part real life shadowrun op to steal the book from the mega corp....

Pay is minimal but you get free pop...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (16:01:19/08-24-18)
If by CSI you mean CoolStuffInc (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1020?&sb=releasedate|desc), and by MM you mean Miniature Market (https://www.miniaturemarket.com/role-playing-games/shadowrun.html#/?_=1&?sort.news_from_date=desc&page=1) - they don't have Kill Code listed.

(Those links are sorted by newest to oldest.)

Sigh...saw Street Lethal and read Kill Code...sigh :-[

My bad guys
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (16:52:52/08-24-18)
You dont have to be so happy about it Mirikon!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (20:05:25/08-24-18)
If by CSI you mean CoolStuffInc (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1020?&sb=releasedate|desc), and by MM you mean Miniature Market (https://www.miniaturemarket.com/role-playing-games/shadowrun.html#/?_=1&?sort.news_from_date=desc&page=1) - they don't have Kill Code listed.

(Those links are sorted by newest to oldest.)

Sigh...saw Street Lethal and read Kill Code...sigh :-[

My bad guys


Oh you bastard! Made me look! J/K ;)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (20:34:56/08-24-18)
I do think Sphinx is usually pretty understated. But I think we really need something better then good at this point. It has to push TM's a good ways up the curve. If TM's after this book aren't effective and useful, right out creation then, we probably do need to seriously consider something like a new edition solution.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:51:55/08-25-18)
Sigh...saw Street Lethal and read Kill Code...sigh :-[

My bad guys

'S'alright.

You were trying to give us good news, and I appreciate that.

Unfortunately, I went and got my Decker in a bit of a bind, and now I find I'm hoping that Kill Code will have details to help her out of it.  So the PDF better drop before Thursday.  :P
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (20:57:03/08-25-18)
You dont have to be so happy about it Mirikon!
At this point, it is either make jokes or drink heavily, and my liver is already upset with me because of my trying to drink until I forget about RL politics.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (22:56:34/08-25-18)
You dont have to be so happy about it Mirikon!
At this point, it is either make jokes or drink heavily, and my liver is already upset with me because of my trying to drink until I forget about RL politics.

trust an expert,  Just don't stop drinking.

Beer goes good with corn flakes.
Irish Coffee beats 40 weight any day.
Vodka goes with just about anything...

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (09:12:52/08-26-18)
You dont have to be so happy about it Mirikon!
At this point, it is either make jokes or drink heavily, and my liver is already upset with me because of my trying to drink until I forget about RL politics.

trust an expert,  Just don't stop drinking.

Beer goes good with corn flakes.
Irish Coffee beats 40 weight any day.
Vodka goes with just about anything...

Vodka-orange juice counts as a health drink.
Anything with cranberry juice counts as a 'cleanse'
Adding tomato juice means it is a lycopene enhanced
An asparagus stalk means it's a superfood
Energy boost turns it into a 'coffee' pick me up
Cream, milk, 1/2 and 1/2, ect... makes it Vitamin D fortified
An orange slice in your beer prevents scurvy
Lemon slice in your drink help prevent kidney stones

Moral appears to be that adding alcohol to anything makes it a 'new-age health" beverage? :)

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Hobbes on (20:22:01/08-28-18)
I do think Sphinx is usually pretty understated. But I think we really need something better then good at this point. It has to push TM's a good ways up the curve. If TM's after this book aren't effective and useful, right out creation then, we probably do need to seriously consider something like a new edition solution.

Unless there is something else Ah-may-Zing! still to come TMs are still lagging, IMO.  Couple of qualities that could ease up the Mental Stat investment a bit letting you claw back a couple points for Agility or whatever.  Maybe even be able to do a pull up.  Still to short on Skill points and starting Nuyen compared to Deckers.  Just not enough starting resources to do anything other than "Matrix God".  But Deckers can cover Matrix and have a little side gig.

And TMs are still pretty much going to spend 13 Karma on Submersion to get Skinlink, and now another 20 Karma on a notaqualityQuality Stream... 33 Karma they're likely to throw at just being Technomancers before starting to pick up a side bit. 

Techno's are still totally playable, but when comparing optimized matrix specialist builds the Decker will simply have more to offer.  But the gap is much narrower than it was three years ago, so yay!  Complaining on the internet totally works!  Ha!
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (21:11:20/08-28-18)
Does that mean a TM can have a PAN now and actually secure their own gear? Because until that happens, I call BS on the whole idea that a matrix specialist can't keep someone from hacking the goggles he's wearing.

So far, it sounds like they have a building where the foundation is crumbling to pieces and there's termites in the walls and they just slapped a new coat of paint on it and called it a day.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Yozzy on (01:53:15/08-29-18)
Does that mean a TM can have a PAN now and actually secure their own gear? Because until that happens, I call BS on the whole idea that a matrix specialist can't keep someone from hacking the goggles he's wearing.
I've seen a set of houserules that gives Technos the ability to do it from the start as well as the Bootstrap program, seemed reasonable for brain internet technopaths, even a little overpowered. But that's neither here nor there.

And yes, Kill Code has a techno quality that allows this now: One with the Matrix. At 2k, you can slave the Living Persona to a commlink or a deck as part of a PAN, or be the host at 8k, or both for 10k.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: living on (07:00:17/08-29-18)
wow, that changes a lot for me!
would be nice to read the rules some time....................
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (11:18:36/08-29-18)
wow, that changes a lot for me!
would be nice to read the rules some time....................
Indeed! Hopefully we’ll see something shortly.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (11:53:05/08-29-18)
Does that mean a TM can have a PAN now and actually secure their own gear? Because until that happens, I call BS on the whole idea that a matrix specialist can't keep someone from hacking the goggles he's wearing.
I've seen a set of houserules that gives Technos the ability to do it from the start as well as the Bootstrap program, seemed reasonable for brain internet technopaths, even a little overpowered. But that's neither here nor there.

And yes, Kill Code has a techno quality that allows this now: One with the Matrix. At 2k, you can slave the Living Persona to a commlink or a deck as part of a PAN, or be the host at 8k, or both for 10k.
That's... better, I guess. But a TM needing a quality when they're already karma poor to be able to do something they should have been able to do from the beginning is fucking nuts. But I don't know why I held out hope that they would actually FIX the problems instead of slapping duct tape on it and calling it a day.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (13:09:33/08-29-18)
Being able to use the Living Persona as the Master of a PAN might be usefull in some occasions (mostly, hiding things by lending your Sleaze Attribute to them), but I don´t think it´s a vital ability that TM´s desperately need out of chargen. Despite the Name, being a Master only means that you can lend out your Matrix attribute for defensive tests. For gear protection, you can just buy a good Commlink and use that as your official Master, without worrying that you get a Mark on yourself when someone Marks your stuff - and you can even buff it with Complex Forms! Not being able to get direct connection out or link-lock a target of chargen is/was a much more grave issue.

That being said: I don´t know if I miss something here (After all, there are a lot of open questions surrounding Master-Slave relationships, which might  be answered by Kill Code and/or Errata), but isn´t the ability to make your Living Persona a Slave of a PAN, which apparently only kosts 2 Karma, a lot more powerfull? If you´re more of an Attack TM, you could use this to get low on your own Willpower or even Intuition and then slave yourself to Rating 6 Link with a Sleaze dongle to essentially buff your Firewall and (passive) Sleaze? It´s probably not a good long-term build, but a neat trick for street-level Technos.   
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:43:56/08-29-18)
And yes, Kill Code has a techno quality that allows this now: One with the Matrix. At 2k, you can slave the Living Persona to a commlink or a deck as part of a PAN, or be the host at 8k, or both for 10k.

Wait, does this mean that Kill Code cleared up the silliness that a device that is used to form a Persona is no longer counted as a device and therefor can't be part of a PAN?

Or is this just Techno voodoo only?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (13:56:09/08-29-18)
Whatever it is, this quality certainly will ease the plight of many technos - just buy a high powered commlink with good firewall (might even be a good idea to mod it a bit) and let that take care of your defense. (Fairllight with virtual machine hardwired module and firewall +1 program, Sleaze Dongle and Smoke&Mirror certainly will be a welcome boost for the karma starved technos)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (14:04:31/08-29-18)
Whatever it is, this quality certainly will ease the plight of many technos - just buy a high powered commlink with good firewall (might even be a good idea to mod it a bit) and let that take care of your defense. (Fairllight with virtual machine hardwired module and firewall +1 program, Sleaze Dongle and Smoke&Mirror certainly will be a welcome boost for the karma starved technos)

Yeah, but doesn´t this have a kind of... cheesy vibe to it? It certainly doesn´t shoot the powerlevel of TMs through the roof, since you won´t likely dump-stat Willpower and Intuition, but it seems a bit cheap, IMO ???

Also, think about the implications for deckers (assuming that it´s possible for non-TMs to slave a Persona to a Master): You could do the same with your Cyberdeck and never care for your firewall settings anymore, as long as you don´t want to defuse a Databomb. 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (14:21:01/08-29-18)
Cheesy - I'd say this is a matter of taste  ;)

If for one would have no problem to let Technos have this little oddity exclusively. After all, deckers can use the perfect time swap trick with very little effort.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (15:10:51/08-29-18)
Cheesy - I'd say this is a matter of taste  ;)

If for one would have no problem to let Technos have this little oddity exclusively. After all, deckers can use the perfect time swap trick with very little effort.

You´re right. Plus, the perfect time swap trick is also a bit cheesy, yet well-adapted. Can´t really blame the player to "exploit" the system, especially if that is literary what their Archetype is about ;D

Nevertherless: If Persona-Slaving this is a thing now, it would have quite an impact on playstyles and balancing. Not that this is a bad thing.   
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (17:50:00/08-29-18)
Did you actually mean cheesy? TMs need several power curve altering buffs. That’s whole d@mn point of this book. If this stuff doesn’t push the envelop Atleast as hard as FA then whole thing a failure. So belay any sort of cheesy talk. We have waited years for this fix. Pushing the TM into viability is the only thing that matter in this book embrace that reality or get out of the way.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (23:48:30/08-29-18)
The PDF dropped on DriveThruRPG.  Sneaky buggers entered in the same release date as Street Lethal, so it isn't the first item on a list sorted Newest to Oldest.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/244831/Shadowrun-Kill-Code-Advanced-Matrix-Rules?manufacturers_id=2216&filters=45486_0_0_0_45208

Now to scratch my digital claws through it...

EDITed to add::

Just finished my first read through.  I skipped most of the technomancer stuff, only because I'm not playing a techno later today.  ;)

It seems all of my unanswered questions are still unanswered.  I'll comment more on that later when I have time to write them out and explain them.  Examples:  Can you change a device's commcode?  Can anyone read your broadcasted SIN?  And if so, what info is on it?  Can your neighbor read the name off the SIN of the person that keeps visiting your wife?  Or husband, if that is how you roll?

There is some reinforced clinging to ideals that I think are silly, but they seem to be sticking around.  Example:  No device can be a PAN master and a PAN slave at the same time.  This forces small teams, or a bunch of stuff goes unprotected.

There is some good.  I particularly appreciate the fact that Deckers / Technos now have ways to protect their team's gear more than an unattended Fairlight Caliban can.

And of course there are some questions.  Example:  Is the Tag Matrix Action really limited to targets in a PAN?  So, as written it is not particularly useful if the opposing squad / team isn't linked?

If the Technomancer stuff doesn't blow me away, this is a neutral book to me.  Not a waste of money, but not exactly a must have either.

I'll post more later.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (01:35:13/08-30-18)
hmmm.
Ok Better on the net, Natural Hacker, Groveler, ONE WITH THE MATRIX, Trust X and not Y/Trust Y and not X
The most useful out of the box best things in there


Overdrive (Any idea what happens when you start jacking cyber gear rating up? This can cause lot of issues) Jacking up someone limb can easily result in the limb being useless unless the rules are clarified.   Wired i think is hte only thing in the game that has the exception writen into it. So if you maybe your smartlink raiting 5 do you get +5 bonus to weapon checks?
Hyperthreading- fairly obvious
Sprite pet - pikachu will never leave your side again!
Probably the strongest things for TMs.


Paragon == 1/2 mentor spirit?

All hail the Shadow warrior new best in slot?

EARRS? Why? this seemed like a good idea to somebody?

Maybe. There a lot questions that need answers.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (14:32:08/08-30-18)
I didn't notice anything that directly confirms, or disproves, that a Persona device can't be a part of a PAN.

The existence of One with the Matrix quality indirectly confirms it though, unless I missed a specific passage under Technomancers that points out that their Living Personas can't be a part of a PAN.

The Reasonance Streams open up questions.  Oh so many questions.  As Marcus pointed out, can the Cyberadept's Override Power boost cybernetics without a rating?  And if so, what does it do?
Is the Machinists Daemon only Noise Reduction without at least the 8 point One with the Matrix quality?

Our GM says Kill Code does a lot for Technos* so I suspect if you are a table with a Technomancer it is worth looking into.
*I'm still avoiding that stuff so as to reduce my chances of getting confused in our game tonight.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (17:06:06/08-30-18)
I'm only on page 100, but so far I have ideas for three new setups and one of my favorite tricks with Agents has been neutered.  :'(

I should really stop posting exploits where rule designers can read them...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (17:14:19/08-30-18)
Adzling you had for knowledge in of this and let it go? I hope errata team is ready to get busy on this book. After further cosideration clearly sourcerer And technoshaman are useable the machines careeras the bane of riggers everywhere is nice not super effective. Cyberadept is only going to be sustainable with modular wear. Which  reduce the cool factor too Much tomorrow worth while for me.Though a bunch issues have to addressed questions are going to require some meaningful rulings.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Jack_Spade on (17:36:51/08-30-18)
Oh, one commentary on Groveller: Whoever thought that 4 datachips are equivalent in cost to one reagent: You were wrong: Datachips cost 5 Nuyen per 10 chips.
This one quality turns drain into a non issue. Time to puppeteer the drek out of every device on the matrix...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (17:43:12/08-30-18)
marcus im not sure what you're referring to?

FYI I had some input/ review of some of the new matrix actions that do not require marks.
that's about it.
everything else is news to me.

Jack I agree that datachips = reagents seems totally borked to me. I just got the book this morning myself so will start reviewing tonight.

meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: PiXeL01 on (18:33:19/08-30-18)
The errata team did not have access to the entire book, only a single section.
A single author has provided us with insight in some publications before the final product was submitted a few times in the past but we have never seen an entire product before.
We don’t do play testing I’m afraid.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:16:56/08-30-18)
meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

I started a thread in the Errata forum (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=28026.msg505574#new), so if you want stuff reported here, that thread should be axed before anyone posts to it.

I'll crosspost here, in case that is what happens.

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (19:39:00/08-30-18)
The errata team did not have access to the entire book, only a single section.
A single author has provided us with insight in some publications before the final product was submitted a few times in the past but we have never seen an entire product before.
We don’t do play testing I’m afraid.

That confirms my suspicion on where most of the shortcomings in 5th Edition comes from. It´s like those "Group Projects" in College where the group members gets assigned to one part of the topic each, never talk to each other for 6 six week and the day before presentation, everything is lumped together into one big powerpoint with minimal oversight. As a results, content turns out to be redundant and/or contradictive (just think about the two sets of Modding rules in Rigger 5!) or important content is omitted because everyone who might have felt responsible thought someone else will take care of it.

Don´t get me wrong: Kill Code is a lot better than I expected, I even dare to say it´s kinda... good. Somewhat. But there are still some very annoying shortcomings, which, as it seems, mostly stems from a lack of oversight and the late involvement (or non-involvment) of Proofreading, Errata, Playtesting and Consistency checks. Just a few examples from the first binge-read-through:

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (21:31:17/08-30-18)

  • Can I finally use teamwork on a Matrix test and if yes, how does it work? You might now say: "Well there´s the new Teamplayer  quality. Technomancers (!) can use it to Perform Brute Force and Hack on the Fly as a teamwork test now. Can´t be used with Sprites (!) and Agents, though." Ahead from being a huge slap in the face of fans of Agents and the "Petnomancer" playstyle (Which I won´t miss, since it was always just an improvised means to cure the shortcomings of TM by cheesing and rules-tinkering), this doesn´t explain anything; It merely suggests that you can´t use Teamwork for these two specific test. What about all the other Tests? Can I use teamwork to Edit a File or Trace a Call? If yes, do the Helpers need Marks? If yes, can they take the modifier for reckless Hacking instead? Who takes the Fall, who gets OS?

I thought that at first, but upon re-reading it I noticed that ALL parties get a mark(s) instead of just the leader per normal teamwork rules. So I think that is what they meant as "teamwork tests" in this particular regard vs normal teamwork tests. Poor wording/editing IMHO *if* that was the intention...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Beta on (22:28:42/08-30-18)
No Jack Point page :-(  If nothing else I like to pick up the date off of those, but for some reason I also simply like that tradition.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Lorebane24 on (22:42:29/08-30-18)
I just picked it up and noticed the same thing.   :'(
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (23:50:06/08-30-18)
marcus im not sure what you're referring to?

FYI I had some input/ review of some of the new matrix actions that do not require marks.
that's about it.
everything else is news to me.

meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

That explains it, I just feel like half the new TM stuff needs massive and immediate errata.  I mean i thought we all had learned the lesson of 4th and don't allows things that will let TM a have powers that boost skills? But of course right away we get something will let you overclock a skillwire.   I just don't understand how we learned these lessons and yet still this crap gets written in.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (23:52:27/08-30-18)
(Crossposting in case the Errata thread gets axed.)


No Jack Point page :-(  If nothing else I like to pick up the date off of those, but for some reason I also simply like that tradition.

I can't help with the lack of the tradition.  The date I can help with. In the second column of page 15, Jolene Price mentions it is 2080.  For what that is worth.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (23:59:29/08-30-18)
sorry drop your potential errata in the errata thread

i didn't know where i was :-9
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (00:17:30/08-31-18)

  • Can I finally use teamwork on a Matrix test and if yes, how does it work? You might now say: "Well there´s the new Teamplayer  quality. Technomancers (!) can use it to Perform Brute Force and Hack on the Fly as a teamwork test now. Can´t be used with Sprites (!) and Agents, though." Ahead from being a huge slap in the face of fans of Agents and the "Petnomancer" playstyle (Which I won´t miss, since it was always just an improvised means to cure the shortcomings of TM by cheesing and rules-tinkering), this doesn´t explain anything; It merely suggests that you can´t use Teamwork for these two specific test. What about all the other Tests? Can I use teamwork to Edit a File or Trace a Call? If yes, do the Helpers need Marks? If yes, can they take the modifier for reckless Hacking instead? Who takes the Fall, who gets OS?

I thought that at first, but upon re-reading it I noticed that ALL parties get a mark(s) instead of just the leader per normal teamwork rules. So I think that is what they meant as "teamwork tests" in this particular regard vs normal teamwork tests. Poor wording/editing IMHO *if* that was the intention...

You might be right: That´s yet another way to interpret this  ::)

Anyways, because of the nature of Matrix actions this question cannot be settled by vague implications or by a laconic "Yes you can". Admittingly: "No you can´t" would settle it. But that would be a very shitty solution.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (00:34:30/08-31-18)
marcus im not sure what you're referring to?

FYI I had some input/ review of some of the new matrix actions that do not require marks.
that's about it.
everything else is news to me.

meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

That explains it, I just feel like half the new TM stuff needs massive and immediate errata.  I mean i thought we all had learned the lesson of 4th and don't allows things that will let TM a have powers that boost skills? But of course right away we get something will let you overclock a skillwire.   I just don't understand how we learned these lessons and yet still this crap gets written in.

I don´t get why are you so pissed by that? Boosting Skillwires is a neat, unique trick, with limited effects since Skillsofts are capped at a rating of 6. To what "lesson from 4th" do you refer here?  ???
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (06:21:32/08-31-18)
I don´t get why are you so pissed by that? Boosting Skillwires is a neat, unique trick, with limited effects since Skillsofts are capped at a rating of 6. To what "lesson from 4th" do you refer here?  ???

The reason TM got the epic nerf bat at the end 4th, was that they got amazingly broken, one of those build that stands out as broken, was the living skill wire build. TM Could thread a skill, and believe me could really, really push that pool back in 4th. The end result being TM had over cap skill in everything. Now it took a good pile of karma to do it. But it was stand out example of broken.

Next the wording of the power isn't clear. If you look in the core there is not such thing as a level 4 wired reflex ether. But that power example uses it. Which means the power allows you to break caps. Why not skill wire 10? Sure it's totally possible the intention was exactly as you said above, but believe me there is portion of the SR community which is already building around the solving the matrix damage problem and running around with a 10+ skill in everything.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (07:12:41/08-31-18)
So you´re afraid that TM`s might have been buffed so hard that they will inevitably nerfed down to their former sorry state?
I kinda get where you are coming from, but there are Archetypes far more due for a whacking with the nerf stick (thus my Signature   ::)) Also, keep in mind that SR is not a competitive game. While there is some kind of "Meta" in the form of forum talks about "Optimal Builds", "Karma Traps" etc., the main incentive on actual tables is to build a fun and fluffy character. And building a TM as a kind of paranormal transhuman Streetsam/Hacker hybrid is a pretty fun new concept IMO.
 
Regarding Overclocking: The Rating of the Wires in in the example is raised to 4, which is probably a way of telling us: "Yes, you can get higher than the rating of bought ware can go". However, there´s nothing that suggests that this Form (and the similar Power of greater Machine Sprites) breaks other limitations like the augmented Attribute Maximum of +4 and the maximum of 5 Initiative dice. You could probably drive the the rating further up, but this would be pointless since you already hit the maximum. As far as I can tell, the "cheesiest" things you can do here is using it on Perception Enhancements and Scanners (I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!!), Dermal Plating (or Smartskin, if your GM uses Common Sense. Nanomachines, Son) and other types of "gimicky" ware where you don´t have to care about other limitations.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: HP15BS on (08:34:47/08-31-18)
I don't think I would consider gear rating to be subject to the +4 Attribute boost limit. A DR is not the same as an Attribute (unless there's something in Kill Code that states it's treated that way).

Firewall, etc are considered Matrix Attributes (and thus subject to the standard boost limit of whichever's lower, +4, or baseX2) but afaik, those are the only "Attributes" that any devices have.

That said, applying the same boost limit here would be a logical house rule.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (09:34:26/08-31-18)
As you can see from the post above the sorts of arguments happen a lot. But even if people did accept the+4 which, as you can see will disagree with, every skill at 10 will be considered game breaking by most any GM.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (10:09:30/08-31-18)
I usually just haunt the forums, but I think this MAJOR distinction between 4e and 5e can't be forgotten

In 4e, biowire was insane because TMs could thread skillsofts at, really, whatever rating they wanted. Since biowire had little to no limitations, this a rules-lawyer could be allowed some frankly stupid builds that every sane/experienced GM canned instantly.

That's not a a problem with this as you CANNOT emulate skillsofts in any way as a TM. Its impossible, barring some VERY loose interpretations of the [program] echo, and, even then, you could NEVER change anything about it. Purchased skillsofts have a hard rating limit of 6.

This means that, while overclocking DOES let you run alot MORE skillsofts, potentially even up to the max rating of 6 with a rating 6 skilljack and enough nuyen spent on skillsofts to sink a ship, it CANNOT let you exceed the max skillsoft cap of 6 as those are not a part of the cyberware.

There is no getting around this limitation, so you do not need to worry about the old 4e nonsense. This, at best, saves them some essence when it comes to skillwire builds in exchange for a sustaining penalty or 2 to all actions. Can be nice, but far from gamebreaking.

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (10:26:05/08-31-18)
yeah but imagine the insanity of a techno who has move by wire rating 1 who kicks it up to rating 5 (it only goes to rating 3) with this powah.

that would confer a rating 6 skillwire system (as high as it can go) as well as +5 reaction, +15 initiative (+20 including the reaction bonus) and +2d6 initiative.

assuming a base reaction of 4 and intuition of 5 this monster techno would end up with a dodge pool of 14 dice, initiative of between 32 and 47 (average of 40).

im sorry but this power was poorly conceived as this was just my first attempt to break it, im sure there's far worse stuff if i give it some more thought.

there's lots more stuff that is this op in the book unfortunately (nom, nom cheap ass datachips to make drain redundant).

overall i think this book has some great ideas but suffers from insane power over reach resulting from poor rules comprehension by some of the writers.

shadowrun really needs a more coherent approach to rules authoring, it needs a a rules committee that can identify this shite in advance and edit them for insanity.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (11:41:26/08-31-18)
i am happy the qualities. They do what was needed. But the stream are a real issue even pet sprite at 1 karma per level so for 10 karma you use prespend edge, break the limit and you have level 10 with infinite service. That just need some language that prevents it from being edged, and it will be workable.

But yeah I’m concerned. I want TMs to be viable 100%, but a repeat of the end of 4th helps no one.

As to skill argument many will agree with your point. But others won’t.



Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (11:54:35/08-31-18)
yeah in my example above the standard 6 resonance/ 6 software techno will generate, on average 4 net hits or +2 to his move by wire rating.

If he post edges it then he's now, on average, getting +4 to his move by wire (or any other cyberware) for a total of a rating 5 move by wire.

that's game breaking.

and that's out of chargen.

so yes, this power as written is totally broken.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:51:46/08-31-18)
and that's out of chargen.

Your point stands, but that is NOT out of chargen.

Move-by-Wire 1 is 3 Essence, so that puts the Technos Resonance at 3 with a Max of 3.
The Essence loss recovery won't kick in until Submersion 2, as you can't get back 0.5 Resonance.

It is still entirely doable, just not out of chargen.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (13:24:33/08-31-18)
actually the cyberadepts daemon resonance bonus is rounded up so at submersion grade 1 you get +1 resonance back from that move by wire.

So the techno would have a resonance of 4 / max resonance of 4.

that's close enough to make this work but you could get your resonance up to 5 with the right chargen tricks (exceptional attribute, restricted gear, cyber-compatible, etc).

once you hit submersion grade 3 this becomes cray-cray, especially if you have increased your resonance in the meantime.

the only thing holding it back is matrix damage to your ware but that is not really a hindrance as it's free to repair matrix damage and can be done relatively quickly with minimal tools (see sidebar in kill code).

this is just another example of why srun needs a rules committee with folks who understand the mechanics and have real system mastery.

as is this particular complex form is just exploit-garbage.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:30:10/08-31-18)
Has it been ruled somewhere that Adept Ways / Resonance Streams / etc do not count towards Positive Qualities?

Even if it has, you are sure pushing that 25 Karma limit on Positive Qualities mighty hard there.

If it hasn't, you are back to dealing with only Resonance of 3 out of chargen.

Remember, you can't Submerge at chargen.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (13:45:36/08-31-18)
good questions Serpent.

Adept Ways are meant to count towards PQ in chargen, so i would assume that Resonance Streams are meant to as well.

which would make it darn hard to get your resonance above 4 out of chargen with this exploit.

with resonance 4 this is still very doable, your just rolling 10 dice for overkill instead of 12.

if you took a specialization in software: overkill then you'd be back up to 12dice for this complex form out of chargen.

so that puts us back at the horrifically egregious exploit i just outlined, no need for resonance above 4.

you just need $40k at chargen to afford the move by wire 1.
for that you get a dodge pool that eclipses most sam's, an initiative that beats the fastest sam or adept in the group and to top it off you can slot so many rating 6 skillsofts it's not even funny.

who needs a team when you've got this one man swiss army knife?

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (13:52:19/08-31-18)
Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (14:15:15/08-31-18)
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (14:26:14/08-31-18)
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (14:37:01/08-31-18)
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (15:34:24/08-31-18)
I really don´t get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  don´t want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you don´t die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward. 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (16:10:57/08-31-18)
You want someone to go at 20+int+rec +3d6?
your looking at something 30-40 initiative.

By the way I went looking for it, but couldn't find reference where it says you can't submerge in creation. It's always been played that way, can someone find that reference? ty

There plenty of time to errata this. We can get the whole build sorted.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (16:33:34/08-31-18)
can someone find that reference? ty

This post (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24595.msg488006#msg488006):

Quote from: Patrick Goodman
Status: Official

Rules Clarification (P. 98, Spending Your Leftover Karma)
Add the following paragraph after the second paragraph.

"You cannot spend Karma to initiate (p. 324) or submerge (p. 257) at character creation."
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (16:44:54/08-31-18)
no offense but you're totally wrong.

please go re-read the entry on move by wire in chrome flesh as your example is just not accurate in the slightest.

then come back and edit your post to conform with reality and we will have something to discuss.

mbw does use ratings
mbw does add to your reaction (admittedly limited by +4 cap)
it also adds to your initiative, which is not limited by +4 cap (it's not an attribute)

Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (16:55:46/08-31-18)
again, you're missing a basic understanding of the rules in question.

mbw 1 = $40k.
skillsofts can be subscribed to get as many as you need OR you can buy them individually over time.
either way it's a *FAR* cheaper way to get a rating 6 skill than spending karma for it even at the ludicrously low exchange rate of $2k = 1 karma.

that does not require a high priority to get, i think it's priority 2 for @$50k iirc.

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (17:01:13/08-31-18)
yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (17:03:33/08-31-18)
this is an example of how this new powa can be exploited to break the game.

its very easy to do and not an edge case at all

would you like me to offer another example?

the risks you call out are almost non-existant. do i need to do the math on that for you or can you operate a calculator yourself?

I really don´t get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  don´t want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you don´t die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (17:05:34/08-31-18)
can someone find that reference? ty

This post (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24595.msg488006#msg488006):

Quote from: Patrick Goodman
Status: Official

Rules Clarification (P. 98, Spending Your Leftover Karma)
Add the following paragraph after the second paragraph.

"You cannot spend Karma to initiate (p. 324) or submerge (p. 257) at character creation."

Thanks ISP. Explains why my search fu failed.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (17:42:33/08-31-18)
no offense but you're totally wrong.

please go re-read the entry on move by wire in chrome flesh as your example is just not accurate in the slightest.

then come back and edit your post to conform with reality and we will have something to discuss.

mbw does use ratings
mbw does add to your reaction (admittedly limited by +4 cap)
it also adds to your initiative, which is not limited by +4 cap (it's not an attribute)

Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.

I have read the post, but you are not reading it yourself. As per its description, it DOES use ratings (and thus would increase), however it has a non-linear increase as called out in it, and thus won't really help you beyond rating 3. It has tiers based on its ratings.

You are also using numbers that are beyond the pale to reach, you realize that, right? ESPECIALLY when accounting for the ton of resonance you will lose doing this.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (17:44:03/08-31-18)
again, you're missing a basic understanding of the rules in question.

mbw 1 = $40k.
skillsofts can be subscribed to get as many as you need OR you can buy them individually over time.
either way it's a *FAR* cheaper way to get a rating 6 skill than spending karma for it even at the ludicrously low exchange rate of $2k = 1 karma.

that does not require a high priority to get, i think it's priority 2 for @$50k iirc.

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

You literally reiterated what I said, and did not refute a single point I made :/

You need priority D to get your wires and skilljack.

With 0 skillsofts.

You need priority C to get a few skill softs

At no point do ANY of the other problems get better, nor do you get rid of ANY of the other penalties.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (17:48:45/08-31-18)
yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes

What you posted is something I don't believe is an exploit, even if we ignore the special rating case of MBW, for one. In order to hit remotely those numbers you need a dice pool of at least 12, and thats AFTER you ate away 3 of your resonance, and assuming a perfect dice roll. It is in the realm of unlikely that wanting to burn the book over it is insane, especially when compared to established and accepted parts of the game that it is attempting to mimic.

You are talking in the realm of an improved reflexes spell, pre-edged, and cranked to nutters. AND even then, it STILL would be inferior to that improved reflexes spell + the magician can just quicken that forever.

^ just putting some things into perspective

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (17:51:25/08-31-18)
this is an example of how this new powa can be exploited to break the game.

its very easy to do and not an edge case at all

would you like me to offer another example?

the risks you call out are almost non-existant. do i need to do the math on that for you or can you operate a calculator yourself?

I really don´t get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  don´t want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you don´t die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward.

Perhaps calm down when people do not disagree with you, as 2 of us in here have disagreed, and you have insulted the intelligence of both of us without even addressing any of our points.

Also. please try and condense posts in the future. The forums dont handle quote chains amazingly, especially broken across posts. If we can get this conversation into 1 post after another instead of 3 seperate posts all on the same topic, it would be alot easier for everyone to follow and throw their opinions in on and would reduce the amount of noise.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (18:02:57/08-31-18)
No offense, but you are barking up the wrong tree here, guys  ::)

The closest thing to "broken" about the Cyberadept is the Interaction with MBW, which needs so much dedication at chargen is so extremely risky that it´s somewhat justified. If you really want to build your whole character around this "Jacked up Skillmonkey" concept and you really don´t mind that this means that you have to run around with a wireless enabled, super-invasive piece of Cyberware that, again controls your movements  and will turn you into a spastic vegetable if something goes wrong, then go ahead. Enjoy you 5-6 Initiative Passes per Combat round while laughing histerically. It will probably be over sooner than you think  ;D

There are more important things to talk about than one esoteric build that, if you look closer, doesn´t really do anything except making you extremely fast. Groveler makes Fading a non-issue. We still have no Matrix Teamwork rules. Reckless Hacking is great, but the interaction with the Control Device Action is nuts. These are more urgent IMO.   
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (18:08:20/08-31-18)
+1 reaction / +3 inititiave all day Long.

You would only lose 2 resonance,(which can be recouped in other ways) in return for adding main combatant to your role (+4 reaction, +23 initiative, any weapon skill at 6).

Small price to pay.

What do mean by beyond the pale numbers?
Software at 6(8 with speciality) and resonance of 4  = dice pool of 12. Just what you need to pull this off. Not at all difficult or large pool.


[quote author=daidalon

I have read the post, but you are not reading it yourself. As per its description, it DOES use ratings (and thus would increase), however it has a non-linear increase as called out in it, and thus won't really help you beyond rating 3. It has tiers based on its ratings.

You are also using numbers that are beyond the pale to reach, you realize that, right? ESPECIALLY when accounting for the ton of resonance you will lose doing this.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (18:13:16/08-31-18)

It’s super easy to overcome a single -2 sustaining penalty.

Mbw 1 is cheap, heck you can afford it with gear karma alone.

The cost to add skillsofts is far far less than purchasing real skills with karma.

This guy starts off as a Sammy who can hack and just gets more powerful as he progresses far quicker than anyone else on the team. He would add a rating 6 skill every run on average...

[quote author=daidalon

You literally reiterated what I said, and did not refute a single point I made :/

You need priority D to get your wires and skilljack.

With 0 skillsofts.

You need priority C to get a few skill softs

At no point do ANY of the other problems get better, nor do you get rid of ANY of the other penalties.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (18:17:43/08-31-18)
A threading dice pool of 12 = software 6 (overkill +2) and resonance 4.

That’s a standard starting dice pool everyone would should know how to build.

Dude if you can’t get that much right I don’t know what your adding to this convo.

[quote author=daidalon

What you posted is something I don't believe is an exploit, even if we ignore the special rating case of MBW, for one. In order to hit remotely those numbers you need a dice pool of at least 12, and thats AFTER you ate away 3 of your resonance, and assuming a perfect dice roll. It is in the realm of unlikely that wanting to burn the book over it is insane, especially when compared to established and accepted parts of the game that it is attempting to mimic.

You are talking in the realm of an improved reflexes spell, pre-edged, and cranked to nutters. AND even then, it STILL would be inferior to that improved reflexes spell + the magician can just quicken that forever.

^ just putting some things into perspective
[/quote]
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (18:20:00/08-31-18)
Good points re bigger fish to fry.

However I’m sure there’s other ware you can pull this stunt with.

No offense, but you are barking up the wrong tree here, guys  ::)

The closest thing to "broken" about the Cyberadept is the Interaction with MBW, which needs so much dedication at chargen is so extremely risky that it´s somewhat justified. If you really want to build your whole character around this "Jacked up Skillmonkey" concept and you really don´t mind that this means that you have to run around with a wireless enabled, super-invasive piece of Cyberware that, again controls your movements  and will turn you into a spastic vegetable if something goes wrong, then go ahead. Enjoy you 5-6 Initiative Passes per Combat round while laughing histerically. It will probably be over sooner than you think  ;D

There are more important things to talk about than one esoteric build that, if you look closer, doesn´t really do anything except making you extremely fast. Groveler makes Fading a non-issue. We still have no Matrix Teamwork rules. Reckless Hacking is great, but the interaction with the Control Device Action is nuts. These are more urgent IMO.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (18:54:18/08-31-18)
I actually checked the Ware in the Core Rules today and made a list of possible Overdrive targets. It´s not that long, and it´s mostly quite reasonable. 

The juciest bits after Control Rig and MBW (see below) are Wired Reflexes, Muscle Replacements and Reaction Enhancers. However, these are subject to the Attribute Enhancement Limit. If you are a cheeselord, you can install wired reflexes and reaction enhancers and convince your GM to let you abuse their wireless bonus to circumvent this Limitation. If you survive the Phonebooking :P   

Sense Enhancements are next in line. You can enter a kind of hyperperceptive state with this. However, that´s pretty flavourfull IMO

Then there´s a lot of perception, stealth and movement gizmos: Ultrasound, Sonar, Hydraulik Jacks, Voice Modulation, Retinal Duplication... Might be interesting but I don´t see anything that would get too ridiculous.

There´s a small group of rated ware which you obviously can´t really overdrive for simple common sense reasons: Air tanks won´t magically increase their volume, same for Biowaste storage (just in case you wanted to literally be full of shit :P). I also wouldn´t allow it for Dermal Platingl, because common sense.

Smartskin however ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvOxFhVNbQ. Yeah, I´d allow it  8)

The most "broken" things IMO are MBW (again, I think it´s justified for the risk) and Control Rig. TBH, an overdriven Control Rig is really insane, without the huge risk and without looking like a spastic freak for the entire run. Oh, and Hardwires. The description suggests that these are still just running Autosofts and thus can´t benefit from a rating higher than 6, but it´s not clearly stated.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (19:14:21/08-31-18)
There are cyberlimbs as well.  Well, I'm assuming you could Overdrive the Enhancements.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (19:29:22/08-31-18)
1st off, totally done with the 3 seperate convos. If you won't condense it down, here, I will.

1st off: move by wire rating 1 is 40K nuyen, which is  14K nuyen more than you can get, in any way shape or form, at E resources. If you dedicate ALL of your allowed starting karma-to-nuyen AND starting nuyen to it... you still can only get it and a whopping rating 3 skilljack (woo... keep reading) at D resources. And that is it, with literally 0 gear, and nothing else to their name (if any GM allows this, they deserve the phonebook as much as any player trying this shit).

At C resources, you can get your move by wire rating 1, and your skilljack rating 6. If you are willing to get restricted gear AND bio compatability, and talk your GM into letting you start with betaware, you can get this down to you ONLY losing 2 points of essence (and thus starting resonance). If you can't... well, sorry, but you just lost 3 resonance as it is over 2 points of essence lost, full stop.

Now, assuming your GM isn't the literal nicest on the planet, lets assume you lost 3 resonance. Well, due to how if you, at any point, hit 0 resonance (even during chargen!) you permanently stop being a technomancer (called out in the TM section explcitly)... you are going to need to either dedicate special attribute points to it OR have priority B+ in resonance. This means that, unless you are playing a metatype E human, you need at least rating C metatype to even attempt this at all. Math majors will probably shoot for metatype D human as it gives you enough points to max res at your whopping 3. The most amazing resonance score ever.

Also, before I get the ienvitable comment... YES a skilljack is required for skillwires. It is called out explicitly, and it is also a gate for it. Without both at the right rating, you get no activesofts (heard this argument far too man times given it is in black on tan...)

Additionally, 20 of your starting karma must be sacrificed to the gods to even get the technoadept quality, so not much karma left there to play with.

Finally, tests when using skillwires are attribute + active soft rating. Which means, without good and varied attributes, your high rating skillwires mean nothing. You can get an amazing 8 dice in your skills, which, since you have no gear, is highly subject to be much smaller for every single test you do. You also get cannot edge any of these tests, and, don't quote me on this as it may be a local table houserule, I don't believe you can benefit from teamwork tests.

But, here is the fun part... even with all of this, you STILL have no skill softs loaded, despite most of your priority ratings having been burnt away. Which takes me to my next point...


Item 2: Skilllsofts are not cheap. An active soft is 5,000 nuyen PER RATING and it is the RATING of the skillsoft, NOT the skillwires, that is added to your attribute for the test. You can have rating 1000 skillwires, but, for a single skill, it STILL won't be any better than a rating 6 skill wire.

And, I don't know what table you are at, but most runs don't include a fraction of the nuyen to do that. You could MAYBE buy 1 rating 6 active soft once every 4-5 runs, if you are lucky and buy nothing else at all/roast your karma to the nuyen gods. During that time, you can also watch as everyone else in your team is gearing up in their own ways.

Item 3: SURE, you can totally mitigate sustaining penalties alittle. It just makes your initial cost cut even deeper, and makes those tiny dicepools you are left even smaller.

item 4: I'm with Finterstag. Never thought on controlrig myself, that I could see edge cases getting broken (though a jammer or that new instant wireless off grenade nips that to hell). Things like groveler, and some of the bulldrek that technoshaman great form sprites can do, are some of things to focus on. The control device thing, if they have a good commlink, I don't see being an issue usually due to how gnarly the penalty is.

Item 5: Your calculations are STILL demanding an almost impossible roll, and your math is also assuming an illegal amount of resonance at chargen barring exceptional attribute (which, with technoadept, is either impossible to get OR is so much karma invested you have clearly gone far too far down this rabbithole).

Item 6: If at all possible, please provide counter points, not insults. Insults and angry outbursts do not make points. They break your own and start flame wars that I, frankly, am not interest in. I'm primarily responding to this as I know you are on the erratta team, and want to make sure you are cognizant of just how crazy far you are stretching for this before making it a boogeyman to jump on.


Edit: Also, I forgot to account for the skilljack essence cost. So, barring restricted gear or other qualities to mitigate the essence impact, you are looking at 4 points of resonance lost due to essence loss. So this all gets EVEN worse for this MBW build's functionality XD
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (19:30:23/08-31-18)
There are cyberlimbs as well.  Well, I'm assuming you could Overdrive the Enhancements.

Thats actually a good idea. Using that on the enhanced X would give you a boost for that limb at least. Still capped at +4, but I retract my statement of it being useless for cyberlimbs :)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (20:05:32/08-31-18)
Messing around with limbs isn't going to do much for you. Yeah you can boost stuff but odds are you maxed the limit out already, and the rules aren't clear if the boost breaks the restriction on attribute or not. If not boosting them makes the limb useless, as you break the limb cap.

Now the fluff talking about using it on cyber eyes, so clearly they are using to break the perception bonus there, which is perfectly legit and has it's uses. You can be super eye detective.

More interesting options-
A Smartlink like all devices, does actually have basic rating, (it's outlined on a table on 234 core). A Smartlink being "Basic cyberware" is device rating 2. Which makes the math workout nicely with it's +2 bonus. So arguably you can boost it's rating at +1 to attack per level of rating. Installing in hot swappable cyber eyes, and this could simplest solution to the other factors involved.

muscle replacement- this oldie but goodie doesn't carry any of the limb's restrictions language it's rating are predefined and scale cleanly. You overclock them all day.
 
Reaction enhancers the same, clearly not as effective as MBW or WR, but it would stack with stuff.

Dermal plating- i think this is self explanatory.

Skillwires- we have already discussed this

stuff that gets weird

Decks and commlinks- an implanted deck or commlink, should be a valid target for this effect, and they all have device ratings. What happens when you jack a deck's rating, the same but to a lesser degree a commlink? I think it's fire wall + device rating. Which if it is, mean you could jack commlink it's some sort matrix supper fortress.

Radar Sensor- this remember batman cellphone all around knowledge thing? Arguably you can achive something similar
(The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers
as ultrasound but can penetrate a cumulative Structure
Rating equal to its own Rating x 5. Thus, a Rating 2 radar
sensor can penetrate two Rating 5 walls, or a single Rating
10 wall, or three Rating 3 walls, etc. )
Normally caps at 4, but we can fix that now so see though hold buildings no problem.






Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (20:19:04/08-31-18)
I have a troll adept out of chargen that has dodge of 14. It's not hard. Init is 12+4d6 (about 8 less on average then example, so yeah about 1 pass on average more). However, if I read all the examples of Overdrive correctly, it looks like you applied the total net hits to the level bonus (Overdive is half the net hits). Second the reduced Resonance for 3 essence lost makes a max form skill of 11 (skill 6(+2) + Res 3 = 11), on average of 3-4 hits for +2 net to MBW making it level 3 (using the level 1 example). Let's say you use some BS cheese to get Resonance 4 back at chargen (still not sure how, since submersion has already been called out as official in previous post). That's still 12 total dice to roll (same average pretty much, net same result - slight chance of level 4 MBW). Now the bad news. First your in wireless mode, so hack away. Surviving that, when the power ends it takes matrix damage equal to the POWER (unresisted) of the form cast, so you want to try to push for that +4, you need power 7(rounding up), meaning 7 damage and almost bricked in one use. Also there was the 6 fade to deal with (L+1 with -2 for cyberadept). So boosting up caused on average (assuming 8 for dice pool with Res 3 + Will 5), results in about 3-4 stun damage right out of the gate.

All of this assumes some sort of build that is not only legal, but viable in more than just being able to go first and more. If you really want to demonstrate your point, MAKE the build, show the proof, and stop using abstract assumptions that may or may not be valid when looking at the rest of the whole (as opposed to microscoping onto one aspect that ignores the rest of the character possibly being a total gimp in all other areas except this one aspect). There is a lot of sacrifice to get to do that, meaning the rest of the character will be... lacking, if not outright useless. You can be the greatest combat machine the world has ever seen, but you can still starve because you are so socially inept / uncouth / whatever that you can't even function as a person to order a burrito from the stuffer shack.

Barring all that, as GM, it's pretty easy to steamroll that player for abusing the system grossly (which again I think pales in comparisn to what magic users can do long term). So far I am not seeing a huge problem with it, and am willing to let it play out and see how it plays in game before I get to bent out of shape about it. On paper / Play / and realistic viable functioning character are rarely always the same. Yeah, I can can make super mage if I put 1-2 into body and str, but thats not realistic. Get shot? knocked down a lot (even if your armor soaks it), tear gas? Toxin? physically overpowered? Anyways I digressed.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (20:20:03/08-31-18)
Messing around with limbs isn't going to do much for you. Yeah you can boost stuff but odds are you maxed the limit out already, and the rules aren't clear if the boost breaks the restriction on attribute or not. If not boosting them makes the limb useless, as you break the limb cap.

Now the fluff talking about using it on cyber eyes, so clearly they are using to break the perception bonus there, which is perfectly legit and has it's uses. You can be super eye detective.

More interesting options-
A Smartlink like all devices, does actually have basic rating, (it's outlined on a table on 234 core). A Smartlink being "Basic cyberware" is device rating 2. Which makes the math workout nicely with it's +2 bonus. So arguably you can boost it's rating at +1 to attack per level of rating. Installing in hot swappable cyber eyes, and this could simplest solution to the other factors involved.

muscle replacement- this oldie but goodie doesn't carry any of the limb's restrictions language it's rating are predefined and scale cleanly. You overclock them all day.
 
Reaction enhancers the same, clearly not as effective as MBW or WR, but it would stack with stuff.

Dermal plating- i think this is self explanatory.

Skillwires- we have already discussed this

stuff that gets weird

Decks and commlinks- an implanted deck or commlink, should be a valid target for this effect, and they all have device ratings. What happens when you jack a deck's rating, the same but to a lesser degree a commlink? I think it's fire wall + device rating. Which if it is, mean you could jack commlink it's some sort matrix supper fortress.

Radar Sensor- this remember batman cellphone all around knowledge thing? Arguably you can achive something similar
(The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers
as ultrasound but can penetrate a cumulative Structure
Rating equal to its own Rating x 5. Thus, a Rating 2 radar
sensor can penetrate two Rating 5 walls, or a single Rating
10 wall, or three Rating 3 walls, etc. )
Normally caps at 4, but we can fix that now so see though hold buildings no problem.

Bit of a stretch on the smartlink bit, as even deltaware only give +2 bonus (despite being device rating 5 or 6).

Using it on a limb directly isn't possible, as it has no ratings (unless you mean on its customization, which would be... weird). Using it on the enhancements to let you go beyond the normal attribute cap, to the +4 cap, though, should be fine at least at my tables.

Attribute stuff = good, but still +4 capped. Nothing to turn a nose up at though

Commlink and cyberdeck = These are actually just holders for the gear, not the gear itself. Additionally, device rating in these cases != the rating of the cyberware. They are actually completely different items for each rating, just with a convenient shared cyberware to implant it in.

Sensory stuff: Now THIS, this is where this power shines. It isn't game breaking, but you can pump your senses up really well, including with alternative implanted senses. I am actually fine with this, as its more situational than anything (aside from some really good perception visual checks, which have their own problems and counters). I actually enjoy the idea of the radar sensor wall seeing being boosted up, but, given it still costs a simple action to use each time and isnt a dynamic update, its good but not game breaking in any way. In the cae of the ultrasound sensor ware... I still don't think it makes the ware worth it, as it kinda sucks, but buffing it with this isnt going to break the game (or make it good, at least compared to sensor array with it in a cyberlimb)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (22:35:22/08-31-18)
If we can get it errata away from things like MBW, and WRs, and instead focusing on the the ability to boost tech like the  smartlink it will be considerably better for everyone.  Breaking skill pools, and crushing the initiative track, is what brings the nerf bat. Adding 5 or 6 to shooting on the other hand is very useful for the archetype, it helps mitigate the M.A.D. and offer a different method of combat then pure agility shooting.

As to the deck and commlinks, I disagree, they are cyber-implants with an essence cost, and they have ratings. Nothing in the power says otherwise.

I  think the ability to see through the whole facility before you walk in could likely prove very disruptive in many runs.
Clearly some GM will adapt better to it then others.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (23:13:49/08-31-18)
ok heres your build

hes a techno-sam.

able to reliably net +4 cyberware rating when he threads his overdrive complex form he can push his move by wire 1 system past its limits to rating 5!

his resulting 28+2d6 initiative nets him 4 initiative passes.

rawking 15 dice with his shooters he can pump that up to 18 with the help of diagnostics from a registered machine sprite.

he pretty dodgy with 12 dice, 17 when he goes full defense, which he has initative to do every combat turn with little penalty.

in fact hes so fast in meatworld he can just hack entirely from AR if he likes with a dice pool of 14 against hosts he can get into decent techno territory with a sprite assist.

he can always resort to puppeteer if he likes.

when he needs to slot a skill he doesn't have (say to drop a grenade from his ares alpha on target) he can use his skllsoft subscription to load any rating 4 almost instantly.
as long as he remembers to overdrive his skilljack to a rating 4, easy for him.

judicious use of psyche ensures his sustaining penalties are halved (-2 for both overdrive threads or -1 if he doesn't need the skillz)

welcome to the new world

mechadept sam

priority build
resonance A/ attributes B/ resources C/ skills D/ metatype E

METATYPE: HUMAN
B 1, A 5, R 4/5/8, S 2, W 5, L 6, I 5, C 1, ESS 3.02, EDG 2, R 3(4)
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 11
Armor: 15
Limits: Physical 4, Mental 8, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 9/13+1D6 / 28+2d6
Matrix Initiative: 11+4D6
Active Skills: Automatics (Assault Rifles +2, Machine Pistols +2) 6, Compiling (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Computer (Matrix Perception +2) 6, Hacking (vs. Hosts +2) 6, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Registering (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Software (overdrive+2) 6
Qualities:  Positive Quality –mechadept stream, Biocompatibility (Cyberware), SINner (Corporate SIN): ????, Technomancer
Augmentations:
   Move-by-Wire System (1)
   Skilljack (Alphaware) (2)
   Smartlink (Alphaware)
Gear:
   Ballistic Mask (Customized)
   Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision
   Identity: Specify Name w/ (1 month) Wireless Skillsoft Networks, Platinum
   Psyche x4
   Renraku Sensei
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Weapons:
   Ares Alpha [Assault Rifle, Acc 7, DV 11P, AP -2, SA/BF/FA, RC 2, 42 (c)] w/ Grenade Launcher, Smartgun System, Internal
      Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Remington Suppressor [Machine Pistol, Acc 8, DV 7P, AP -1, SA/BF, RC 3, 15 (c)] w/ Gas-Vent System (3), Silencer/Suppressor, Smartgun System, External
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Ares Alpha - unloaded
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher - unloaded
   Remington Suppressor - unloaded
   Edge Pool - 0/2
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (23:30:45/08-31-18)
ok heres your build

hes a techno-sam.

able to reliably net +4 cyberware rating when he threads his overdrive complex form he can push his move by wire 1 system past its limits to rating 5!

his resulting 28+2d6 initiative nets him 4 initiative passes.

rawking 15 dice with his shooters he can pump that up to 18 with the help of diagnostics from a registered machine sprite.

he pretty dodgy with 12 dice, 17 when he goes full defense, which he has initative to do every combat turn with little penalty.

in fact hes so fast in meatworld he can just hack entirely from AR if he likes with a dice pool of 14 against hosts he can get into decent techno territory with a sprite assist.

he can always resort to puppeteer if he likes.

when he needs to slot a skill he doesn't have (say to drop a grenade from his ares alpha on target) he can use his skllsoft subscription to load any rating 4 almost instantly.
as long as he remembers to overdrive his skilljack to a rating 4, easy for him.

judicious use of psyche ensures his sustaining penalties are halved (-2 for both overdrive threads or -1 if he doesn't need the skillz)

welcome to the new world

mechadept sam

priority build
resonance A/ attributes B/ resources C/ skills D/ metatype E

METATYPE: HUMAN
B 1, A 5, R 4/5/8, S 2, W 5, L 6, I 5, C 1, ESS 3.02, EDG 2, R 3(4)
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 11
Armor: 15
Limits: Physical 4, Mental 8, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 9/13+1D6 / 28+2d6
Matrix Initiative: 11+4D6
Active Skills: Automatics (Assault Rifles +2, Machine Pistols +2) 6, Compiling (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Computer (Matrix Perception +2) 6, Hacking (vs. Hosts +2) 6, Perception (Visual +2) 2, Registering (Fault Sprites +2/ Machine Sprites +2) 3, Software (overdrive+2) 6
Qualities:  Positive Quality –mechadept stream, Biocompatibility (Cyberware), SINner (Corporate SIN): ????, Technomancer
Augmentations:
   Move-by-Wire System (1)
   Skilljack (Alphaware) (2)
   Smartlink (Alphaware)
Gear:
   Ballistic Mask (Customized)
   Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision
   Identity: Specify Name w/ (1 month) Wireless Skillsoft Networks, Platinum
   Psyche x4
   Renraku Sensei
   Sleeping Tiger w/ Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3)
Weapons:
   Ares Alpha [Assault Rifle, Acc 7, DV 11P, AP -2, SA/BF/FA, RC 2, 42 (c)] w/ Grenade Launcher, Smartgun System, Internal
      Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher [Grenade Launcher, Acc 6, DV By Ammo, AP –, SS, 6 (c)] w/ Smartgun System, Internal
   Remington Suppressor [Machine Pistol, Acc 8, DV 7P, AP -1, SA/BF, RC 3, 15 (c)] w/ Gas-Vent System (3), Silencer/Suppressor, Smartgun System, External
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Ammunition & Resources:
   Ares Alpha - unloaded
   Ares Alpha Grenade Launcher - unloaded
   Remington Suppressor - unloaded
   Edge Pool - 0/2

How did you up Res without exceptional stat (otherwise max is 3 due to essence), and already ruled no submersion in previous errata
How do you get 7 hits off of skill 8 + res 4 (12 dice pool), which also means min 7 power level to thread? 
Have fun with that auto unrsisted 7-8 points of matrix damage to your MBW.
Enjoy that average 3 PHYSICAL damage from fade. Only healed thru time (like drain).
Rinse/repeat all the above damage for your skill jack (lesser for less power boost of course, but again more matrix damage and Fade)
Body 1 and charsima 1, I would bet most GM would call shenanigins, but YMMV.
Enjoy that physical direct spell / gas / toxin / drug side effects vs your body stat.
Just remember when hacking with sprite in teamwork you only go on the sprites Initiative (which is still decent)
-2 to meatworld in AR if I remember correctly
-2 per sustained complex form (so -4 if you have both going)
To me it appears you made a glass cannon (that an adept or samurai slinging 18+ dice for attacks can achieve and still have stats) that gets one more pass at the cost of being incredibly flimsy in a fight vs counterpart street sams/phys adepts, no other abilities, and not really a good hacker, decent but not good at certain hacking, but no decker (no cybercombat, no electronic warfare if link locked). Yes you can petnomancer a bit, but your still gimped by level of sprites you can compile without hurting yourself to get a good one for actual hacking (resonance level hampers this in compiling, and power level)


Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (00:20:31/09-01-18)
Adzling, that skillsoft subscription is completely unmaintainable in missions and any non-prime games. It costs as much as a 20k PER MONTH, and thats all you ever get. Using that as your basis, unless this is literally a 1 off char, is completely pointless point of argument.


Also, as said a million times, with a rating 4 skillsoft thats all you get. No amount of overdrive will EVER improve your skillrating as its gated by the super expensive skillsoft, not the skillwires.


Edit: Also, you have literally no lifestyle listed, along with what was said above. You also forgot to pay for that first month of your unmaintainable point of argument.

You also flatlined most of your non-murder attributes I see, and still can't use any of that edge you have on... well, nearly anything by the looks of it.

Also, pretty sure you have FAR too many skills for skills D. Same with attributes, but it is past midnight and may have bad mathed those.

You are not acounting for the 2 sustaining penalties you are eating to use any of your activesofts.

I can keep going, but this is not a valid char at all.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (00:44:36/09-01-18)
To change the topic for a bit;

Does Kill Code make it even more prudent to run Wireless Off all the time?

I mean, Team PANs are not terribly practical with the ruling that no device can be master and a slave.
And now on top of that, you can be penalized for being linked in a PAN without any MARKs required against you (so there is no way your team / decker can even know it is happening) with the Tag Matrix Action, page 40.

The effect is that a number of targets equal to the net hits on a Computer + Logic [Data Processing] v. Sleaze + Intuition test get highlighted giving your teammates (who can see AROs) up to 2 dice in penalties from Visibility and Lighting negated for each target, plus an addition Take Aim can be used against the target as a Free Action.

It is starting to look like Wireless Off is the only way to go....
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (00:59:01/09-01-18)
To change the topic for a bit;

Does Kill Code make it even more prudent to run Wireless Off all the time?

I mean, Team PANs are not terribly practical with the ruling that no device can be master and a slave.
And now on top of that, you can be penalized for being linked in a PAN without any MARKs required against you (so there is no way your team / decker can even know it is happening) with the Tag Matrix Action, page 40.

The effect is that a number of targets equal to the net hits on a Computer + Logic [Data Processing] v. Sleaze + Intuition test get highlighted giving your teammates (who can see AROs) up to 2 dice in penalties from Visibility and Lighting negated for each target, plus an addition Take Aim can be used against the target as a Free Action.

It is starting to look like Wireless Off is the only way to go....

It does seem that way offhand. Those new matrix actions look fairly easy to pull off at gibing someone's tech for a few combat turns, and simple action to boot? Wondering if they are making the deckers/hackers actually defend and attack in matrix during a firefight vs cyber arm + weapon = secondary gun guy. Seems to be making having a matrix operator in a firefight actually doing matrix things (defense/offense) vs only matix when it is time to hack an option. Adding another layer of complexity to the firefight now and new tactics. I am curious to see how this plays out.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (01:07:22/09-01-18)
Adzling, that skillsoft subscription is completely unmaintainable in missions and any non-prime games. It costs as much as a 20k PER MONTH, and thats all you ever get. Using that as your basis, unless this is literally a 1 off char, is completely pointless point of argument.

Also, as said a million times, with a rating 4 skillsoft thats all you get. No amount of overdrive will EVER improve your skillrating as its gated by the super expensive skillsoft, not the skillwires.

Also, pretty sure you have FAR too many skills for skills D. Same with attributes, but it is past midnight and may have bad mathed those.

You are not acounting for the 2 sustaining penalties you are eating to use any of your activesofts.

Forgot about the level max on subscription softs.... good point

Back of Napkin math I see 42 pts worth of skills(and specializations). 15 points (3 level 5 skills for techno) still means 27 pts? so 5 too many? not as bad as I initally thought, but still kill off almost 2 of those level 3 skill sets (well 1 once you get rid of one with 2 specializations)... Either way your skill less wonder just got a lot more narrower in being a skill less wonder outside of shooting a gun...
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (02:02:02/09-01-18)
yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?


Dude, don't get me wrong, you and your errata team get a big "Thumbs Up" from me. Sure, I have had some heated debates and full out arguments with you, and members of your errata team at times, but (I hope) we all know it comes from a labor of love for the game... And I do respect the work you guys do.

And I am also a realist. Of the quality of Catalyst's books - and their physical/financial limitations (Catalyst is a SMALL company!) So as much as I defend Catalyst and the freelancers, I also know you guys in errata got your work cut out for you :D

But at the end of the day, this is also a game, and the player base wants options. And with those options comes exploits. Its just the way of the world.
It's easy to police when it just one book, but when its 10, 12, 15 books, each coming with dozens of new options... Well abuse and exploits will always slip in.


And "Balance" is not something that is easily defined in a RPG... especially one as big as SR. What I find to be totally fine, you might find to be abusive, and Firebug may think is an utter joke :D

I would much rather see you guys worry about poorly written options and clearing up ambiguity then worrying about "balance" or option combination exploits.

Leave that up to us GMs to find what works at our tables :D

this way maybe the best of both worlds can happen; The players can have their options, the GM can have their clarity to see if their is something they consider abusive...
 
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (05:56:24/09-01-18)
Apparently these heated debates have been going on for so long, it's now attracting spambots. Maybe it'd be better to continue the debate elsewhere in a civil manner? =) Meanwhile, as an agent I don't have access to the book yet so still can't give my first impression. :'(
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (09:57:54/09-01-18)
The build is functional primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (10:05:35/09-01-18)
The build is function primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?


If you still feel the need to fix it, I´d say impose a maximum Rating of Orginal Rating*3. That´s the maximum the (equally named) Greater Sprite Form (p.93), so it would be consistent ;)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (10:18:28/09-01-18)
If you still feel the need to fix it, I´d say impose a maximum Rating of Orginal Rating*3. That´s the maximum the (equally named) Greater Sprite Form (p.93), so it would be consistent ;)

Base Item Rating = X  Augmented maximum = 3x ?

I'm not sold simply b/c all the problems we are discussing basically remains.

MBW 1 going 3 is still no good and MBW 2 going to 6 is also game breaking.

I'd suggest something more along the lines of Bonus equal to 1/2 hits to whatever the ware does.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (11:02:27/09-01-18)
Maybe a time limit?

"this ability can be used for (resonance)Combat turns per day" ?

would that help the balance of this ability?

(Remember, I don't have the book yet, so I can't read up about it yet...)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (11:11:02/09-01-18)
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.

i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (11:18:33/09-01-18)
if you were looking to bring overdrive down to earth you might consider just limiting it's effects to the max rating the ware can normally obtain.

that would at least limit it to what a sammy can achieve.

this build would mostly lose initiative but retain all the skillwires access, which as daidalon notes is partially limited by skillsoft cost.

but only partially as it's exponentially cheaper to acquire a new skill via activesoft vs karma (rating 6 skill costs 42 karma/ rating 6 activesoft costs $30,000 or 15 karma).

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (11:32:32/09-01-18)
I finally gave Kill Code a thorough once over.  There is still plenty to digest, but I think I can give a decent quick review.



Unless I missed something tremendous, I would call this a "meh" book overall.  There is plenty of good in it, along with plenty of bad.  If your table isn't going to cherry pick from Kill Code, you might not like good enough to put up with the bad.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (11:38:15/09-01-18)
The build is functional primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?

Honest questions. I will set aside the stat dumping to 1 in multiple stats (GM's differ on opinions), the lack of skill diversity (and incomplete for actual hacking runs)
How is the build viable when it relies on unobtainable dice pools to reliably pull off the trick? To boost anything by 4 levels with overdrive you need at least 7 successes on the Threading test. We can rule out using edge being a factor due to the inherent low stat that is a by product of trying to make this (usually read as no special stats, or used what little they had to boost resonance to the max 3). A threading skill of 20+ is darn near impossible to pull off reliably.

Then as I mentioned before, there is the whole physical fade damage aspect on average of 3 (physical fade damage because it requires more net hits then your Resonance, even at 6 resonance, still physical damage). So -1 wound penalty (no magic healing/first aid, only time like magic drain...) all day long. Plus the -4 penalty for sustaining

The matrix damage almost bricks it alone. And may the gods help you should should you glitch, critical glitch (while extremely rare, almost as rare as the mythical 7 hits on the threading test based off Res 3 + skill 6(+2). Beware the gremlins ability that some adepts, spirits, critters, mages can toss a you. Also those fancy new bullets that do matrix damage to your stuff.

I admit I don't know how the subscription for skillwires works, so this may not be an issue. But noise... or a jammer, noise grenade, bullets. Yes noise is fairly easy to reduce, but nothing has been allotted to it yet. so more resources to (if noise works on it, again I am not up to speed on subscription, so ignore this if noise has zero effect ever).

Extrapolating past chargen, just to get MBW2 (delta to stay at 3 essence) and best case scenario you dropped 312,000 (doable). And then spent 47 karma on grade 3 submersion, and 75 karma to boost resonance to 6 (and your still taking physical damage :( ) Your thread skill only improved from 11 to 14. Or you dumped that same 122 karma into software skill and get +3 skill (boost from 6 to 9 skill, same numbers for the thread roll).

Just because something has the potential to do something, doesn't mean we should overlook the actual odds/chances or even viability of attaining that something outside of the end result possibility on paper. I don't do statistics, but it feels like a 3% chance to pull off, and a 1% chance to cripple yourself. Maybe some math guys can run the numbers of getting 7 successes at various skill levels starting at 11 on up, and also the glitch chance (I know slim....) More often then not it seems like you will only get +2 (3-4 successes) boost, still suffer the same 7 matrix damage, and same Fade (Level 6 + 1 for the Form, and then -2 sourcer quality)

To me it feels like the boogeyman on paper, but then you actually roll and play it for a few runs and go "this doesn't really work out well at all". Again GM's differ, but I personally don't take all these side affects lightly (reliable -5 dice pool penalties, mitigated down to -3 with drugs, but now we are easily addicted thanks to low body of 1). 7 Matrix damage, plus glitch cripple effects. Countered by gremlins power/spell/adept, and enemy hacker (data spike, rsonance spike, any matrix damage matrix action, let alone the other hacking things). Personally Magic boosting is worse to me for abuse (reagent plus focused concentrate shenanigins for 4 combat/stat buffs running out of char gen)

These aren't personal attacks on anyone, but it seems like the potential in theory is overshadowing the actuality of being able to achieve it. Potentially I can jump from here to the moon, actuality, probably not (bad euphisim, I know)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (12:00:59/09-01-18)
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.
Don't need hero lab, it's in the Overdrive description-
Daemon has no effect until you submerge (Zero divide by 2, round up, is still zero):
Quote
Every time the Cyberadept goes through Submersion,
they align their body, spirit, and cyberware. This
means that a Cyberadept who has Submerged may
restore Resonance that has been lost to cyberware
(and only cyberware) by an amount equal to half
their Submersion Grade (rounded up)

Quote
i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.
So your not using priority method? Cause the skills are still out of whack otherwise
Also we addressed you can't boost the skill level from the subscription I thought, killing the second half of this build back to normal, or was Dandelion wrong?
As to the rest, I have stated multiple times the the side effects and reliability of pulling off the rolls needed and all the penalties (damage) that come with it.
You have yet to state HOW you achieve these miraculous rolls other then winning the lottery odds. A mage can summon a force 10+ spirit which is a wrecking machine, and way more reliably
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (12:02:45/09-01-18)
kainite his overdrive pool is 12.

that's 4 net successes on average.

post edge for 3 more successes on average resulting in 7 net hits on average which ends up supplying +4 to his MBW rating while threading overdrive.

he has two edge, so he'd typically use one when he needs to head into combat.

with edge recovery happening after a nap he would have access to this more often than not.

regarding fade he's rolling 9 dice averaging 3 hits which would reduce his fade from 8 to 5. that's pretty bad as it's physical damage because it exceeds his resonance of 4.

luckily kill code includes a new type of sprite, the companion sprite. luckily cyberadepts are particularly adept at summoning them (they get +2 to compile and register them). companion sprites can use the shield power to let you offload a point of fade to them, reducing your fade down to 4 physical for -1 to actions.

that could be problem...perhaps he should be using this overdrive at rating 4 until he can submerge or improve his willpower...let's see rating 4 overdrive would result in 1 stun on average (after his sprite pal helps out) and lose him 2 from his dodge pool and 8 from his initiative resulting in a net initiative of 21+2d6 (down from 28+2d6). Probably a worthwhile swap out to reduce fading to something more manageable.

noise shouldn't be an issue once you get those activesofts loaded they aren't going away.

sustaining penalties are -1 for overdrive on his mbw or at most -2 for mbw and skilljack due to psyche use.

not sure why you want to increase MBW post chargen?
so not sure what relevancy that comment has?

TL:DR when you factor in fading this guy out of chargen should probably throttle his overdrive thread down to rating 4 so he doesn't cripple himself from fading. this will reduce his initiative from 4 passes to 3 passes on average. He's still very fast and has access to high rating overdriven skillwires but he's not quite as stupid fast out of chargen.

EDIT: you're correct re daemon, thanks for that! it would reduce his resonance to 3, dropping one dice from the associated pools. luckily overdrive rounds up so even 3 successes is enough to boost his MBW from 1 to 3 (see example above).

the skill karma is correctly allocated via standard priority, i can see it right in herolab. do you want a screeny or the herolab file?


Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (12:06:16/09-01-18)
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.

i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.

Sigh, this is why I tend to haunt forums instead of partaking of them. Once 2 sides clash, it becomes VERY clear that people stop actually reading posts and instead jump halfway through an explanation. See below as I address and rip holes in all your bandaids, and reiterate the vast sea of points you have thusfar ignored.

So, you used karma gen for it, got it

1st off: the daemon requires at least 1 submersion to reduce resonance lost. You can't submerge at chargen, so you inly have, at best, 3 resonance.

2nd off: You are almost certainly taking physical fade from this that can't be reduced in anyway barring a LUCKY edge roll (after your insanely lucky roll to get that thread to start with) for your skilljack and skillwires. So add another -1 to everything.

3rd off: your skillsoft subscription + lifestyle is, at a minimum (barring ltieral murder hobo cheese) puts your monthly costs in at a MINIMUM of 22K per month, and much more likely to be more due to costs incurred per run. At most tables, that is liable to be most, if not all, of your nuyen. What THIS means is that, barring a very generous GM, you are rarely if ever going to be able to purchase anyskillsofts.

4th off: This build may go first, but, accounting for all your penalties, your "primary combatant" dicepool of 15-18 has dropped to 12-15. Still good, not great, and your dodge dicepool has dropped to, at best, 12 (one full auto or long burst away from just all the pain). So you may take out one guard, but then are most likely screwed.

5th off: On the topic of skillsofts and this build: the roll when using skillsofts is attribute + skillsoft rating + modifiers. When using a skillsoft network, there is an automatic -1 dice pool modifier for using it (lowering its effective max rating to 3). You are also eating, at a minimum, -2 dice pool due to your sustaining penalties, bringing that effective rating down to a skillsoft rating of 1. This was all assuming no physical drain taken, a MASSIVE assumption with this build, but it is much more likely to be be in the realm of an effective rating of 0 to -1. In terms of straight math, this means that, for your best dicepool, before accounting for your lack of gear or compensation for anything or the other myriad of penalties, you have a whopping 6 dice, at best, for any skill. You would have been MUCH better off taking jack of all trades and, after a few runs, branching out your skills. It would be stupidly cheaper in the long run compared to your skillsoft subscription.

6th off: All of those penalties I called out above? YEah, they also ALL apply to your purchased skillsofts. All of them save for the -1 from skillsoft network. So your BEST effective skillsoft rating (after penalties) is... 4. And that's assuming you manage to ever purchase a skillsoft, which, as proven above, is very veryu unlikely given just how much you are investing every single month into this build.

That effective 4 (purchased at 6, reduced by penalties) skillsoft costs you 30K. The karma to get a rating 4 in a skill is 20, or 17 with JoaT. This means you save a whopping... 5 karma equivalent per skill for every mythically attained skillsoft you just achieved, at best, or only 2 compared to just having JoaT. IF you take any physical fading from this to get another -1 penalty, your effective rating drops to 3... at which point it is jsut better to have purchased it with karma, full stop.

You also STILL can't edge any test using them, you have likely physical damage, and your character will never be advancing through nuyen unless your GM is insanely nice to you... which is a table by table argument.

7th off: He is actually a pretty skillless wonder. Given you need to sustain those 2 complex forms and likely damage for the entire run, or brick your gear multiple times per run dropping and recasting, asssuming you don't kill yourself from it, you can reduce all your natural dicepool by -2. Which means this character has 10 dice to hack, bette rknown as a completely useless hacking dicepool. A medic with that stealth commlink and an attack dongle is comparable to you, and it would frankly cost less.

Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (12:11:08/09-01-18)
Can we please try and get away from the overclocked MBW issue? I have a feeling that the different sides on this won´t be able to convince each other anytime soon, and the constant posting and reposting of builds and numbers games starts to bloat the thread  ::)

The unanswered questions around noise, teamwork and other mushy things about the Matrix are a more important issue. I don´t know if these are actually supposed to be answered in Kill Code, which is a supplement after all. But at the end, Kill Code Errata that affects Core mechanics might as well be called Core Book Errata  ;)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: daidalon on (12:12:33/09-01-18)
kainite his overdrive pool is 12.

that's 4 net successes on average.

post edge for 3 more successes on average resulting in 7 net hits on average which ends up supplying +4 to his MBW rating while threading overdrive.

he has two edge, so he'd typically use one when he needs to head into combat.

with edge recovery happening after a nap he would have access to this more often than not.

regarding fade he's rolling 9 dice averaging 3 hits which would reduce his fade from 8 to 5. that's pretty bad as it's physical damage because it exceeds his resonance of 4.

luckily kill code includes a new type of sprite, the companion sprite. luckily cyberadepts are particularly adept at summoning them (they get +2 to compile and register them). companion sprites can use the shield power to let you offload a point of fade to them, reducing your fade down to 4 physical for -1 to actions.

that could be problem...perhaps he should be using this overdrive at rating 4 until he can submerge or improve his willpower...let's see rating 4 overdrive would result in 1 stun on average (after his sprite pal helps out) and lose him 2 from his dodge pool and 8 from his initiative resulting in a net initiative of 21+2d6 (down from 28+2d6). Probably a worthwhile swap out to reduce fading to something more manageable.

noise shouldn't be an issue once you get those activesofts loaded they aren't going away.

sustaining penalties are -1 for overdrive on his mbw or at most -2 for mbw and skilljack due to psyche use.

not sure why you want to increase MBW post chargen?
so not sure what relevancy that comment has?

TL:DR when you factor in fading this guy out of chargen should probably throttle his overdrive thread down to rating 4 so he doesn't cripple himself from fading. this will reduce his initiative from 4 passes to 3 passes on average. He's still very fast and has access to high rating overdriven skillwires but he's not quite as stupid fast out of chargen.

Dicepool of 11

You can't post edge to break limtis, and you can't both pre and post edge. So you are going to eat fading.

Using this before heading into combat completely negates your entire point of skillwires, as you won't be able to use them. You would need to use at the start of the run to matter at all.

You recover edge after a full night's res tand a good meal, not after a nap. It is a limited resource, not recovered at the same rate as stun.

If you reduce it to a rating 4 overdrive, he loses almost all of his ability to use skillsofts and most of his benefits. He is in the realm where drugs or other augs would work better, and still liable to be eating damage (see prior post).

If you lose wireless connection, you lose your skillsoft network activesofts, as per skillsoft network description. You don't download them, you stream them. Additionally, complex forms must target a matrix entity, which goes away if you are jammed. As you have 0 noise reduction, and fresnel fabric can't be aimed at yourself as it involves orienting your body, you have 0 noise reduction ever. A rating 6 jammer kills this character without a roll, period. In fact, most of the CZ would kill this character's abilities.

This can keep going, but, to be frank, I am done beating this dead horse. I think we've made enough noise that, should you ever propose this to the erratta team, it won't be forgotten just how full of holes this build is. See you all in another 6-8 months.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (12:14:10/09-01-18)
see my notes above that answer all yours and kainites points.

his initiative drops from the lofty 28+2d6 down to 21+2d6, resulting in 1 stun fade.

skillwires remain at rating 4 or 5 depending on what activesoft ratings you have access to.

so he ends up with rating 6 skills in his core competencies and 4 in anything else, not bad at all considering he can shoot, hack and dodge with the most hacker/ sam/ adept builds.

out of chargen as he submerges and raises his resonance overdrive just becomes more and more powerful without any upper limit.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: adzling on (12:17:02/09-01-18)
Can we please try and get away from the overclocked MBW issue?

agreed, done.

thanks for your input kainite and daidalon, all good points.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (12:31:41/09-01-18)
if you were looking to bring overdrive down to earth you might consider just limiting it's effects to the max rating the ware can normally obtain.

It solves some problem certainly but i still don't like it.
It's intended to boost TM combat effectiveness so lets just do that.
I'd vote for something simple like limitedly thread-able Smartlink complex form and a free level of bio-compatibility.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (17:43:37/09-01-18)
Did someone mention 7 successes needed? I don't have my limits-table at hand anymore (those predate SR5 and had both % and 1/X for Y+ hits on Z dice for ALL possibilities), but I can just ask AnyDice real quick.
15 dice: 20.30% (~1/5)
16 dice: 26.26% (~1/4)
17 dice: 32.61% (~1/3)
18 dice: 39.15% (~2/5)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (20:22:14/09-01-18)
The topic came up and i failed to comment then.

• Players may amend previously created characters
and retroactively purchase a stream.
• Streams cost 20 Karma to purchase and are
not subject to the double cost of qualities
after creation.

You don't have to buy them at creation if you choose not to, and will only ever cost you 20 karma.
Just FYI.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Finstersang on (12:26:29/09-02-18)
The topic came up and i failed to comment then.

• Players may amend previously created characters
and retroactively purchase a stream.
• Streams cost 20 Karma to purchase and are
not subject to the double cost of qualities
after creation.

You don't have to buy them at creation if you choose not to, and will only ever cost you 20 karma.
Just FYI.

Given that you can only spend 25 Karma for Positive Qualities at Chargen*, it´s probably not that bad of an idea to buy the Stream Later and buy other Qualities at Chargen instead. It is a pitty that you can´t trade Complex Forms Karma from Priorities Building for this, like Mages can do with Spells and Masteries  :-\

*Now that I think about it: Do Streams actually count as Positive Qualities?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (12:35:32/09-02-18)
*Now that I think about it: Do Streams actually count as Positive Qualities?

Not entirely clear.  Clockwork compares them to Adept Ways:
Quote from: Clockwork, Kill Code, page 86
I’d compare them to adept ways instead of magical traditions.

Is the closest we get.  And Adept Ways are Positive Qualities.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (12:53:02/09-02-18)
They do not. Those rules are straight out of Kill Code, and ways don't count any longer ether. Ways just happen to be totally useless in 5th.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Reaver on (13:15:07/09-02-18)
They do not. Those rules are straight out of Kill Code, and ways don't count any longer ether. Ways just happen to be totally useless in 5th.

Not true. Entirely.....


Ways are the Hot Sauce Dip that comes with you Cajun Inferno buffalo wings.... a nice, but pointless, dressing.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (13:25:40/09-02-18)
*Now that I think about it: Do Streams actually count as Positive Qualities?

Not entirely clear.

Brain Fart time.

They are listed just like Adept Ways are:

Quote from: Kill Code, page 89
NEW TECHNOMANCER
QUALITIES:
RESONANT STREAMS

So yes Adept Ways and Resonance Streams are Qualities - until an Errata says otherwise.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (14:32:04/09-02-18)
*Now that I think about it: Do Streams actually count as Positive Qualities?

Not entirely clear.

Brain Fart time.

They are listed just like Adept Ways are:

Quote from: Kill Code, page 89
NEW TECHNOMANCER
QUALITIES:
RESONANT STREAMS

So yes Adept Ways and Resonance Streams are Qualities - until an Errata says otherwise.

Whether you call them qualities or not they aren't subject to the quality double cost. So it's meaningless if they are qualities. You can buy them with Karma at creation. Just like ways, it just happens that all the streams are OP and ways are utter useless.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (14:37:04/09-02-18)

Not true. Entirely.....


Ways are the Hot Sauce Dip that comes with you Cajun Inferno buffalo wings.... a nice, but pointless, dressing.

I will endeavor to explore that example  further with some pepto and a lot of bread on hand, and i'll get back to you when I know more.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on (15:34:44/09-02-18)
So it's meaningless if they are qualities.

No, it isn't meaningless.

It means that they count towards the 25 Karma point limit at chargen, just like Finstersang asked about.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (15:54:48/09-02-18)
Really, this topic attracted at least half a dozen spambots the past day. I blame all of y'all.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: kainite311 on (21:06:58/09-02-18)
Really, this topic attracted at least half a dozen spambots the past day. I blame all of y'all.

How?
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (22:17:02/09-02-18)
It's cause I trash talk the spam bots. They are out to get me know.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Michael Chandra on (00:55:35/09-03-18)
A dozen isn't an exaggeration by the way, which you might miss due to the cleanup by the mods: Somehow someone posted the right keywords to attract them, because after I posted 'at least half a dozen' I already reported half a dozen more.

7 awaiting moderation already again. =)
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: PiXeL01 on (08:54:04/09-03-18)
I’m impressed by the sheer amount of bots ... saddening really
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (09:35:30/09-03-18)
I’m impressed by the sheer amount of bots ... saddening really

Maddening is a better descriptor, imho :-\
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Marcus on (10:41:25/09-03-18)
I can lock the thread, i think we pretty much have said all there is to say here.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: AJCarrington on (12:55:58/09-03-18)
Not a problem from my end.
Title: Re: Kill Code
Post by: Mirikon on (23:41:57/09-03-18)
I find it ironic when bots are posting in a thread titled 'Kill Code'.