Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Devil on <07-17-17/2209:16>
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Hoi chummers,
I'm building a Human Decker for a challenging game where folks are all about the min-max. I don't have much experience with min-maxing or with Deckers, so I could use a lot of help. Hopefully that's where some of you knowledgeable folks come in. I've done a lot of research, but do not yet understand deckers well enough to optimally put it all together into a character on my own.
Chargen Systems Allowed: Priority & Sum To Ten
Anyone have (or willing to make) some optimized Decker examples that I can learn and copy from?
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Look at some deckers here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hubchargen/
I find standard build human decker is
Human D
Attributes C
Mundane E
Skills B
Resources A
This build lets you get solid mental stats, have a solid 5 edge, have a skillset that covers decking and basic runner stuff, and the money for a deck/ware.
Decker min-max advice:
Don't blow all of your money on the best deck. This is a big pitfall in starting deckers and deckers trying to min-max. Decks mostly just set your limits. Starting deckers usually can't get dicepools high enough to justify the high limits of fancy decks (when programs/qualities can boost limits just fine for very cheap). You are better off spending that money on 'ware - cerebral boosters, Narco, Mnemonic Enhancers, Sleep Regulator, things that up your physical stats, etc. The Resources A advice is more for 'ware than for a deck.
Run Faster qualities Perfect Time and Overclocker are must-have min-max decker qualities. Together, they basically make it so your highest stat of your cyberdeck array relevant is the only relevant one and adds +1 to it to boot. It makes it so you can be great decker just fine with one of the Device Rating 2 decks (costing ~90k-130k).
I would still recommend being physically competent. There are hosts that are tough to hack unless you can get a direct connection to a slaved device, meaning you are going to have to get your meat body someplace dangerous. Also, there are times (like in a physical fight), where decking is often impractical and clunky. Ex. A cyberarm and a pistol or muscle augmentation and an SMG on fulll auto can go a long way.
For better or worse, most GMs I encounter seem to allow constant teamworking with agents with little drawback. Make sure you buy an R4 agent at chargen. It basically ends on average giving you +2-3 dice on all computer/hacking rolls and a +1 teamwork limit on the test. I don't particularly like this... but hey, you are min-maxing so take advantage!
Take advantage of Psyche and Narco. Deckers already have high Logic and Willpower, so their psychological addiction resistance is strong. Get Nephritic screens or the Drug Tolerant quality if you are nervous. +2 to Intuition and Psyche for many hours is worth 200 nuyen a pop when hacking. I would also like take cram instead of wasting essence/nuyen on Reaction boosting 'ware. Min-maxed deckers are min-maxed for VR. Cram is something you can take ahead of time on a run and keep the benefits for a long time, and get an easy +2 Reaction and +1d6 physical initiative. It's much more efficient than 'ware for physical competency boosts for high logic/willpower characters, and you'll appreciate the benefits whenever you have to deal with physical threats.
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All of this advice is very much appreciated. Thank you.
I've looked on Runnerhub. Every decker I've found is either trying to fill multiple roles or is gimmicky or just very obviously bad at decking. If you know any specific examples then perhaps you could point them out to me. I've scoured google for advice and good builds and only have found scattered bits and peaces, which is hard for me to piece together as a player who is inexperienced with the decker. I've been learning a lot though.
I've messed around with the Attributes C route, but I'm not sure how people achieve basic social competency, the ability to sneak, having a body of 3, and not getting riddled full of holes for having drek reaction. Clue me in please?
Cheap deck. Got it. Any suggestions for starting decks and setups?
I read where someone was saying that Codeslinger (hack on the fly) and Quick Config where good as well. Are they less essential? I know that I could take all four for the full 25. Worth it? Also they said to take Curiousity Killed The Cat as a negative because it offers a bonus. It seems sketchy, so I wouldn't mind a second opinion on that negative quality. Also, are there any other negative qualities that you'd recommend? Addictions maybe, since i'd end up with them anyway if going the drug-enhanced decker route?
So by physically competent you mostly mean a good agility for sneaking and shooting?
I'll try going the drug route. Nuyen is tight even at priority A. Cuts down on ware costs.
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First, you have given too little information on what you really want. You say an "optimized" decker. Optimized for what? In SR there isn't one optimized build, there are 50 or more, depending on character style. The van decker doesn't need Agility or Charisma. The decker who wants to sneak and shoot does. Every character benefits on having social skills. Problem is you can't do all things equally well. Something has got to be sacrificed.
To optimize the decking part, Logic and Intuition should be high and the Cracking and Electronic skill groups high. The two most important skills are Computer and Hacking. An optimized decker should have at least Logic 8 (10 with narco and Psyche). It's possible to reach Logic 12 with Psyche. (Even 13 but then we are maybe sacrificing too much in other places). Intuition absolutely not lower than 5. Nearly half of Matrix actions rely on Intuition. Intuition is also half of Initiative and used for defense, knowledge skills, Perception and more.
The simplest way to be able to boost combat capabilities as a decker is to get a cyberarm. It will not help with sneaking, but as said earlier, you can't have everything. Other ways are augmentations like Muscle Replacemnt/Muscle Toner with drugs and/or wired reflexes or buying drones with guns. There are lots of options.
The most important social skill is Etiquette with second place going to Con. If I have priority C on skills, my skill group points nearly always go to the Influence group.
Back to decking. Matrix combat is something the common decker avoids. Time to jack out. IC is meaningless to fight as they simply spawn every turn. Many deckers skip Cybercombat totally. Others find it very useful to be able to brick equipment like weapons. Again up to character style. There is no "clearly better optimized choice".
FST_Gemstar advocates a "cheap" deck. I don't. My favorites are the Microtronica Azteca 300 (wants the Perfect Time/Quick Config combo) or the Renaku Tsurugi, both rating 3. The problem with decks are that they are so expensive that if you don't go for a decent deck at chargen, you will probably don't ever get a better deck. You are much more likely to save up to bioware like Cerebral or Cerebellum Boosters. That said, going for a rating 4 deck at chargen is to sacrifice too much for too little gain. With 10 Logic, 6+spec hacking and an Agent to help, dice pools easily gets too high for a cheap deck IMO.
Good luck!
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It's possible to reach Logic 12 with Psyche. (Even 13 but then we are maybe sacrificing too much in other places).
Sure... If you conveniently forget that nothing can raise your attributes at more than +4 their normal values. It's not +4 for wares and another +4 for drugs, and whatever else. It's +4 total. So if you're human, you can only raise your stats to 10 (11 with Exceptional Attribute), nothing more and never more.
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Cause I wanted to...
Karma: 25 karma on Reaction, 10 on PQs, -8 on NQs. At -2, but can take a full compliment and PQs and NQs
Nuyen left: 28kish for gear. I got the Micro Azteca 300 just to demonstrate, but the character really could do fine with a deck half the price, saving a lot of money.
== Priorities ==
Metatype: D,1
Attributes: C,2
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 1 (4)
REA: 3
STR: 1 (4)
CHA: 3
INT: 4 (5)
LOG: 6 (8)
WIL: 5
EDG: 5
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 0.87
Initiative: 8 +1d6
Rigger Initiative: 8 +1d6
Astral Initiative:
Matrix AR: 8 +1d6
Matrix Cold: 5 + DP +3d6
Matrix Hot: 5 + DP +4d6
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 11
== Limits ==
Physical: 5
Mental: 10
Social: 4
Ballistic Mask [+1] (Only for intimidation, Must be visible)
Astral: 10
== Active Skills ==
Automatics (Submachine Guns) Base: 6 Pool: 10 (12)
Computer Base: 5 Pool: 13
Con (Fast Talk) Base: 1 Pool: 4 (6)
Electronic Warfare Base: 6 Pool: 14
Etiquette (Street) Base: 1 Pool: 4 (6)
Hacking (Hosts) Base: 6 Pool: 14 (16)
Hardware Base: 5 Pool: 13
Perception (Visual) Base: 4 Pool: 9 (11)
Sneaking (Urban) Base: 6 Pool: 10 (12)
Software Base: 5 Pool: 13
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Cram)
Addiction (Mild) (Psyhce)
Overclocker
Perfect Time
== Lifestyle ==
Low ("Low") 1 Months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Cerebellum BoosterRating 1
Cerebral BoosterRating 2
CyberearsRating 1
+ Sound Link
+ Antennae
+ Antennae
+ Antennae
Datajack
Mnemonic EnhancerRating 1
Muscle ReplacementRating 3
Narco
Smartlink
Tetrachromatic Vision
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
Ballistic Mask 2
+ Gas Mask
== Weapons ==
Ingram Smartgun X
+ Gas-Vent 2 System
+ Personalized Grip
+ Sling
+ Smartgun System, Internal
+ Sound Suppressor
Pool: 10 (12) Accuracy: 7 DV: 8P AP: - RC: 5
Survival Knife
Pool: 3 Accuracy: 5 DV: 6P AP: -1 RC: 3
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 3 Accuracy: 5 DV: 4S AP: - RC: 3
== Commlink ==
Microtronica Azteca 300 (ATT: 7, SLZ: 5, DP: 3, FWL: 1)
+ Agent Rating 4
Character can get social hits when needed. Sneak fine. Lay fire with an Ingram. And throws enough decking dice. I don't take cybercombat because if you need it, you already messed up and it is best to jackout and start over:).
The Azteca 300 has a highest attribute of 7. With overclocker, it is 8, whenever you teamwork with your agent it is 9, and whenever you have the matrix attribute boosting program you need at the time loaded, it is up to 10. To me this seems like more than necessary limits, but again, you will never really need to think about getting a new deck (I wouldn't think about getting a new deck with DR 2 either though...). With perfect time, you can add a program or switch your array with your extra free action. The lets you start from a defensive position, switch to your hacking array, do your action, and then switch back to defensive witihout skipping a beat. Basically, your Rating 7 attribute can always be where you want it.
Addiction qualities are there to just get the extra +2 drug resistance instead of the -2 without them. You are using drugs a lot the time anyways, might as well get the karma at chargen to get the addiction that you are playing like you have anyway, instead of earning it in play without getting karma for it.
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@Imladir
I did not forget anything. Except that 12 isn't max, you can get to 14 logic. (At chargen if prime runner). And I still might have missed something. There are other combinations that reach the same result.
Gnome 7 Log
Exceptional Attribute +1
Genetic Optimization +1
Cerebral Booster +2
Psyche with Narco +2
7+1+1+2+2=13
To reach 14, just surge and get Metagenetic Improvement (Logic)
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Hopefully we aren't really talking about prime runner gnomes with SURGE though. Ideally we are talking about a Human with standard chargen, since that's what is helpful at the moment. Without spending a ton of karma or most my positive quality points in an attempt to squeeze out 1 more point on the cap, logic hard caps at 10 (not to mention that there isn't really 1 more attribute point to spare from anywhere else). I can get it to 8 with ware and then use drugs to take me the rest of the way. That will probably have to do. If I need to go higher then I can probably aim for Genemods during gameplay.
I haven't been specific because I am not an expert on it (as I may have mentioned). I was hoping to not be limited to choosing AR or VR and then building a character that only really works for one of them. A reasonably functional Sneaking, Etiquette, and Con seem like they are important to every runner and it seems I really need Sneaking to deal with things that are too difficult to hack remotely. Perception can be largely replaced with Electronic Warfare and a good sensor or two, I'm told . Thinking possibly a low Automatics and specialization that can be upped with Muscle Toner/Muscle Replacement and a Cyberarm of one sort or another. Mostly I'd just like to be able to contribute some suppressing fire and to defend myself from minor threats. Slapping some armor on that Cyberarm also seems to be a lot cheaper in both essence and nuyen compared to Orthoskin. There are numerous other skills that might be of use, but I know that I need to really cut the fat skill-wise with deckers, so I could use some advice as far as whether anything else is worth trying to squeeze a bit into. I know that I'm going to need everything from Cracking and Electronics at various ratings.
In terms of deck price, I'd prefer to go on the cheaper side. That's the advantage of being a human decker from what I can see. Nuyen is too tight to buy an expensive deck right out the gate and I can working towards upgrading at a later time. Until then I can use edge for the hard stuff.
FST_Gemstar, that character looks pretty darn close to what I'm hoping to build. I'm going to try to tweak it though. Those social skill pools seem fairly useless and I might be able to do without much Perception at all with an Electronic Warfare that high. I may also try to squeeze in Cybercombat, but I do see your point about it. I just feel like stuff always goes wrong in Shadowrun. Kinda the nature of most runs in my limited experience. Is that paranoid or accurate?
Which cheaper deck/s specifically do you recommend if not the Micro Azteca 300? I don't know where I need to draw the line in terms of how low those limits can be. Would taking Quick Config effect my decision?
I've been looking at armors like Ace of Diamonds, Lined Coat, and Chameleon Suit. You think going for higher armor (Armored Jacket) is superior to any of the benefits those offer? My reasoning was that hiding a cyberdeck is probably smart and also my hysical limit is probably going to hold back my sneaking from being very successful. I could be wrong about the sneak thing though. 5 is probably a reasonable limit for sneak for now, I think.
Suggestions for programs? I've seem some people just buy them all. Is that the route to go?
Again, all the help is very much appreciated guys. Thanks so much. I'm making a lot of progress.
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Social dice are there to get an easy hit if you need one... better to not do much talking, but gives you an etiquette check and con defense. They are not intended for the character to be a social pro, but just professionally competent enough not always make a fool of themselves or provoke things.
The Little Hornet coming in at 90k has the same top stat as the more expensive Azteca 200 and Hermes Chariot, and has the same device rating. With Perfect Time, as noted, you can usually only worry about moving that top stat around. To me, it's the goto min-max deck, but it does seem to be mispriced in context. Any of these three decks is what I would go with. The Azteca 300 does work and will help you take advantage of big rolls. On the flip side, if you need to be getting those big rolls, perhaps you should look for an easier approach to your target (direct connection) or just use edge and break your limit anyway.
Talk to your GM about perception/EW. I don't let my players act like they have their natural senses when they are relying on EW and a hand sensor. Ex. If you are paying attention to radiosignals you may need notice the snake in the tree. If your GM is cool with it, then by all means, lower perception more!
As for cybercombat... there just isn't much point based on the rules, unfortunately. You rarely have to go "data-spike to data-spike" with an enemy decker. There are things you can, often including just shooting them. And IC are neverending. Once they are alerted, they keep coming. There is no winning. If going to fight them, your best bet is to leave the fight, or if you have to stay, stick your agent on them for a pass or two until you finish up. There unfortunately is no good reason to go Brute force over hack on the fly for the roles most deckers have to fill. If you can go and get out quite, why would you go in hot? Cybercombat can be fun for things, but GMs/players really need to work together on making challenges that do that. Unfortunately, being Matrix Overwatch and messing around in hosts, the primary jobs of a decker, does not require cybercombat.
Skills C is tough for a decker. if going human,
Human D
Atts A
Mundane E
Skills C
Resources B
This will help get your default dicepools higher, particularly physicals, while still getting 'ware to boost your top pools (Logic/Intuition based) and afford a cheap deck. Athletics isn't worth it. Running and Swimming are rarely helpful, better to just invest a point or two in gymnastics on your own. I'd prob put my points in Influence, but it seems like your games seem to expect higher social dice out of your characters. So have high Agility (and possibly 'wared up) and stealth would also work. But again, I find it hard to deck with skills C.
Here's a decker/conjurer i made with skills C... it is definitely rough! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-rR3UyLUJfY29tMFU/view
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Honestly, with Perfect Timing, Overclocker, Device Modification (Modify Attribute), Program Carrier (Virtual Machine) and the various cyber programs to modify one attribute, you can turn even a cheap Erika into a 7/3/1/1 machine with two program slots remaining. Add a teamwork test from an Agent program to increase your limit for your test by an additional +1 and you'll be hard pressed to ever get more successes than you can use.
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Do I need to wait until after chargen to use device modification on my deck?
I'll probably take the road more traveled and go with skills B, attributes C. I had just read your sheet incorrectly and had it backwards. You must have seen my reply before I edited it. I've tried it the other way around and found that the character was sub-optimal, so I'm inclined to go with your original priority recommendation.
Is higher armor superior to better concealment for your items or a better limit on sneaking? For this sort of character, I mean.
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You can mod your deck at chargen.
You can afford a few sets of armor. One more rugged, one more fancy, etc. The build is squishy no matter which way you look at it. There are going to be runs where conceal-ability is important and a fancy suit required, but otehrs where the fancy suit will be a liability and no one cares what you are packing. Having options can be nice. You have armor-mods and add-ons that help improve your armor rating, you can get a cyberfoot filled with armor, etc, but at the end of the day, your best bet is to avoid fighting where you risk death. Your armor is there to basically not get killed in one shot and give you time to get someplace safe.
Palming is definitely a skill I would buy with karma early on to help with concealment. Some 'ware that could conceal important items (smuggling compartment, etc.) is another possibility
the character concept i posted i upped sneaking high because that muscle replacement upped its physical limit enough to take advantage of it, but you could probably cut it a little.I just personally like having it because it sucks being the one character, that rolls the crappy sneak roll and everyone gets discovered.
Having a weapon and cyberdeck in public aren't necessarily a problem if you have licenses and aren't seen doing anything illegal with them.
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You might want to see this. http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25816.0
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You might want to see this. http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25816.0
Brute Force Deckers are typically not very team friendly unless you're in a Pink Mohawk game. I have serious doubts when step one of a plan is "Set off all the Alarms". However that build is a good set of goalposts for dice pools and how to get them, IMO he could get by with a Modified Little Hornet as a deck though, and the Restricted Gear Quality isn't really needed, just dial back the Cerebral booster to a 2 IIRC, add Narco and an Addiction to Psyche and Cram. If Drones aren't your thing they lift right out of that build and you can stick on an Agility 9 Cyber Arm and a Heavy Pistol or SMG.
Anyway, I'd start with the same Priorities and stat array, skills and 'ware more or less the same and tweak to your preferred play-style.
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The super stealth build is fine, there is plenty of variants across the board, from the system point your clock is running ether way, while the current attribute juggling method is in vogue, it does favor hack on the fly over cyber-combat. But even with priority gen you can build an effective cybercombat monkey, and still have enough cash for decent arm, and built in pistol to go with it if that's what you want.
While this maybe drifting off topic, i keep considering just deep diving decking build, and run bricking for combat. You can get 2d6 Init in AR just from a deck IIRC, or just run max edge, (lucky hacker is best hacker). Sure that doesn't make an amazing combatant, but if you can crush bricking you can useful. "Go for the eyes boo, Go for the eyes", i know it's not meta, and your die pools are probably not going to be amazing but, it doesn't actually take that much to be able to spike out standard matrix damage tracks.
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Another, easily overlooked, cheap and helpful quality: "Practice, Practice" from Hard Targets increases your Limit by 1 for any one non-combat skill and can be taken for different skills. At 2 Karma there is really no reason not to take it.
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Another, easily overlooked, cheap and helpful quality: "Practice, Practice" from Hard Targets increases your Limit by 1 for any one non-combat skill and can be taken for different skills. At 2 Karma there is really no reason not to take it.
I didn't think "Practice, Practice" increased Matrix limits as those are set by your Persona stats. "Overclocker" and the assorted programs increase your limits for Matrix tests because they increase the associated Persona matrix attribute. "Practice, Practice" seems to modify a Mental, Physical, or Social Limit...
If your GM rules "Practice, Practice" works for Matrix Limits then, it's a no-brainer 4 Karma for Hack on Fly and Computer at least.
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If you want to optimize I'd say you need high decking pools and then I suggest to be awakened. An adept decker can start with 3 additional skill points in computer/hacking and get +2 bonus for computers from a mentor spirit. This is +5 computers, +3 hacking. Also, you can take the higher concentration power to negate negative dice pool penalties (e.g. running silent) at the expense of action economy.
Now, while you can have ware - if you are awakened money tends to be expensive so if you do mystic adept, you can use increase attribute spells to steal +4 dice for your decking needs. So a net of +9! dice to computer and +7 for hacking just for having a dash of magic. Even with a cheap deck - your limits may be a bit too low for your skill level but you reliably reach these limits. Also if you focus on hacking rather than cybercombat then smoke and mirror means you can get away with cheap decks.
I agree that device level 2 is enough - but I'd rather have an erika and incredible dice pools (and constantly hit my limit of 5 or 6) then have an expensive deck with less dice.
So this is just for being the best decker you can be - I played an adept (not mystic) decker that way and had really good starting dicepools - if I wanted to optimize her more I'd fix her access to increase attribute spells. It seemed for me that being an adept (even if I only had magic 3) gave me far more then selecting the right qualities did. (and being a plain adept you'll have karma for over clocker and the other goodies).
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Character is also trying to be human... and edge is often important to decking (especially sleaze decking). I like magical deckers a lot, but it is a lot of finagling, and I don't think optimal for human decker (dwarf on the other hand...).
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Character is also trying to be human... and edge is often important to decking (especially sleaze decking). I like magical deckers a lot, but it is a lot of finagling, and I don't think optimal for human decker (dwarf on the other hand...).
Seriously-if you say you can't readily fit the magic with a human, taking a race that starts 2 priority higher is not the answer.
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Character is also trying to be human... and edge is often important to decking (especially sleaze decking). I like magical deckers a lot, but it is a lot of finagling, and I don't think optimal for human decker (dwarf on the other hand...).
Seriously-if you say you can't readily fit the magic with a human, taking a race that starts 2 priority higher is not the answer.
It is a balance issue. Taking dwarf lets you drop your attributes from C to E. And Taking Dwarf A or B/Magic D (4-5 priority points) is more efficient than taking Dwarf C/Magic B (5 points, less edge...). I still think it optimal for deckers to have decent edge and skills, and and it is tough to scale humans up magically/edgy without losing out someplace else they need for decking (basically skills), and their metal slot scales poorly. Dwarves still still let your adept decker take Skills A or B, get a Little Hornet, get some useful 'ware, get adept powers and decent edge.
I'd prob go:
Dwarf A
Atts E
Magic D
Skills B
Resources C
This build basically trades some 'ware for adept powers that are more specific to decking, that probably allows for future growth of taking more 'ware and scaling up on adept powers.
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This thread is really great and I learned much about hackers from it. But why is always "Hacking (Hosts)" included and not files? Files are more often the goal of a run and also use the host values.