Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: hemgath on <01-16-11/1431:03>
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Mhhh a little finding ?
Any one used rocket in SR4A? If you had a special mission and sure to meat some BiG Vehicle…
Find for exemple some Rocket AV and a little MAW…
Verry very hard to find…
But your best Johnson find you, your super AV rocket and a launcher…
Now an average test for our super rocket:
Rocket anti Vehicle:
Damage: 16P
AP: −2 / −6 (on vehicle)
Airburst: −4/m
Find: 20p
Price: 1000 ¥ for 1
The average of a Rocket Scatter = 4d6 (so medium half is 13)
With a Airburst link scatter = 2d6 (so average is 7).
Normal launch:
With 15 in Weapon skills + AG you make an average 5 on dice test
So your average scatter: 13 -5 metter success : -8 metter
Your rocket arrive @ 8 metter from the vehicle and make a good 8x-4metter = 0 damage…
Airburst link launch:
With 15 in Weapon skills + AG you make an average 5 on dice test
So your average scatter: 7 -5 metter success : -2 metter
Your rocket arrive @ 2 metter from the vehicle and make a 2x-4metter = 8p damage -6…
Specialist runner :
Airburst link launch:
With 21 in Weapon skills + AG you make an average 7 on dice test
So your average scatter: 7 -7 metter success : PERFECT you shoot the tank
Your rocket arrive in the vehicle and make a 0x-4metter = 16p damage -6…
Now, I compare diferent weapon with an average Runner with 15 in his weapon skills+agi…
Some munitions easiest to find and really cheapest than a rocket AV…:
AV bullet:
Damage: -
AP: -4 / -6 (on vehicle)
Find: 18p
Price : 125 ¥ for
HMG:
5 success + 7p-3 (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 21p -9
SMG:
5 success + 5p (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 19p -6
A Machine pistol !!!:
5 success + 4p (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 18p -6
Imagine with a specialist runner… and is 21 (or really more) weapon skills…
(I don’t make dogge comparaison because it’s really harder to expose… but you can easily imagine…).
A finding
Rocket is ridiculous and completely Useless…
So exept for extreme, extreme range… with a perfect skills… prefer lot of cheapest and efficient weapon… Like a simple Machine pistol with AV APDS…
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First off, the SMG or machine pistol will just bounce rounds off the vehicle. The burst fire damage bonus does NOT figure in to base damage when comparing to the vehicle's armor. The net hit's do count (assuming the driver of the vehicle doesn't get any hits to dodge, for whatever reason), but with only 9 damage, even with AV rounds, the vehicle is likely to shrug off the SMG hits. I'm assuming you aren't wasting AV rounds on a rinky-dink vehicle but a real armored threat.
Second, the rocket has a much greater range than the SMG or machine pistol: A launcher's short range goes out to the SMG's Long range, and completely exceeds the machine pistol's range! Thus, you can engage the vehicle from beyond the range of small arms and threaten it.
Third, unless you have sufficient recoil compensation, recoil will reduce the dice pool on the attack roll for the SMG and machine pistol by a tremendous amount. While it is rare to put that much on a small arm, it is technically possible.
Lastly, vehicles are not single points in space. They are large and take up a good chunk of real estate. For example, a Bradley IFV is 7 meters long and 3 meters wide. The firer can be off by a little bit and still nail the vehicle dead on. So, factoring in the size of the vehicle with the reduction of scatter yields:
13- 5 - 3.5 = 4.5/5 meters OR 13 - 5 - 1.5 = 6.5/7 meters. We won't consider the diagonals on this shot, just the easier to compute X and Y axis.
For the airburst: 7 - 5-3.5 =0 meters OR 7 - 5 - 1.5 = 0.5/1 meters. This is a dead-on (or close to it) shot.
Battle tanks are even bigger. The Abrams MBT is 9.7 meters by 3.7 meters. Hitting that will be even easier, and the airburst will, on average, allow the firer to hit every time from three times the distance the SMG can reach, or six times the distance the machine pistol can reach. And neither of those weapons can even scratch the tanks in question.
Would the small arms set up be great against lightly armored targets? Absolutely. In this case the rocket is overpriced. Against real armor? Ridiculous? Useless? Hardly. Use the right tool for the job, and a machine pistol isn't it.
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You could nit-pick the issue of whether or not the damage code is modified by narrow burst before comparing armor as regards Long Bursts and Full Bursts. The explicit text on page 154 for these two leaves out the "is not included when comparing DV to Armor for P/S" caveat that the Short-Narrow Burst has on page 153. However, any good GM is going to recognize the omission as accidental, and I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up elsewhere in the text.
In case your hunting for it, hemgath, the rule Gun Nut is referencing regarding bullets bouncing right off is on page 167, "Vehicle Armor", last sentence. So that HMG with 5 successes (total ModDV=12) needs to be fired at a vehicle with armor no greater than 21, still a pretty decent effect, but then again, it's an HMG.
The SMG, again assuming 5 net hits (as Gun Nut says, what about the vehicle's dodge check?), it's useless once vehicle armor reaches 16, Machine Pistol drops out at 15. So, against unmodified SR4A vehicles (in other words, no Arsenal or War!), you want that AV Rocket the minute a GMC Beachcraft, Ares Citymaster, or GMC Banshee arrives on scene. Against the other vehicles, sure, an SMG or Machine Pistol could, with 5 net hits, be effective, if you want to get that close.
At least grab a sport rifle and stand off at a distance, they're not that expensive.
Open the door to Smart Armor from Arsenal and modify, say the GMC Bulldog Step-Van. Your GM is a prick, he gives the thing with Smart Armor 10 and Regular Armor 20 (GMC Bulldog has Body 16, so there's no acceleration / speed penalty). Now you're facing Armor 20*. On top of that, Armor penetration is reduced by 10 for the first 10 shots made against the vehicle. Now, none of these weapons seem effective. Against a modified delivery van, of all things. However, there's a catch, any weapon with DV=<10, the Smart Armor's effectiveness is potentially reduced, the only such weapon on your list is the AV Rocket. See page 132-133 of Arsenal for details.
* Some GM's will argue that Smart Armor adds to the base armor rating for a total Armor of 30, but to me, that's game breaking. The rules are quiet on whether or not it adds in, so I side with it only giving an anti-AP quality. This a house rule/rule interpretation on my part, so insert 30 above, if that's your preference.
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LAW rockets (Arsenal) are actually pretty damn cheap. 750 nuyen if memory serves. In my group, the weapon specialist carries a LAW rocket with her almost every time there's a run. "Just in case." And it's come in handy more times than I can remember. Drones, CorpSec armored cars, police cars, SWAT vans, all have fallen beneath the might of her rockets.
EDIT
Fixed typos.
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@Chaemera: The Ranged Combat Summary table on p. 150, SR4A, has this note: "*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor." Wide bursts are more helpful for armor penetration, as they generally increase net hits (presumably by making it more likely that some of your ammo finds a weak point in the armor).
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Before someone asks, cause I'm sure someone is curious, it's because wide bursts reduce the targets defense pool. Fewer dice means fewer chances to dodge.
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@Chaemera: The Ranged Combat Summary table on p. 150, SR4A, has this note: "*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor." Wide bursts are more helpful for armor penetration, as they generally increase net hits (presumably by making it more likely that some of your ammo finds a weak point in the armor).
Excellent, I was sure this one was in there somewhere, thanks, Bradd.
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If you're looking to shoot a tank with a missile, it would make good sense to use edge on the test.
Your middling DP 15 heavy gunner (Skill 3, Agl 7, 2 from smartlink, 3 from take aim actions) can pull ~8 hits with an edge reroll.
With good positioning (e.g. firing from above the target, like IRL,) as GN points out, a few meters left or right won't miss a target that big.
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For that matter, trolls block LOS.
Trust me.
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Apologies for the zombie thread, but we just ran across this in game for the first time.
Anti-Vehicle rockets are, because of scatter, effectively useless.
An average, trained guy with an AV rocket simply cannot hit what he shoots at.
You're better off if they actually shot at you, because you can't be hurt...if they shoot at someone else, you could be in danger.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Apologies for the zombie thread, but we just ran across this in game for the first time.
Anti-Vehicle rockets are, because of scatter, effectively useless.
An average, trained guy with an AV rocket simply cannot hit what he shoots at.
You're better off if they actually shot at you, because you can't be hurt...if they shoot at someone else, you could be in danger.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Errr, did you read the thread? They just crunched the numbers to show it's actually average-to-easy to make the vehicle go Ka-blooie...
In our game, we've used RPG's a couple of times and watched everything short of a rigger-jumped vehicle get cinematically blown sky-high. No tanks yet...but still!
What happened with your guys?
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Yeah, but..well, I got lazy.
My main issue is with scatter. I'll address it in the Rules forum where it belongs.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Scatter should be 1D6 for each Range-Category. For unguided projectiles at least.
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And for guided ones? Makes me think wire-guided missiles might be a better option.
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Personally I would prefer a post-modern equivalent of the javalin missile system. WIN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin
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And for guided ones? Makes me think wire-guided missiles might be a better option.
Those can have sensors and agents/clear-shot/pilot installed for more dice, correct? O.o
on the flip side, even if you get +6 from sensors on the missle itself, you now operate under the signature rules, where everything below a freight train is considered to be small it seems, which means you get -3 to your dice-pool again . .
But the Software could change that one a bit.
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Object size already accounts for a lot of the scatter. As stated earlier, Citymasters, IFVs, and MBTs are all large objects with a significant footprint on the landscape. Unguided rockets have a decent chance of hitting and doing damage. The airburst upgrade dramatically improves those chances, and guided munitions have an even better chance, especially since you don't need LOS from the firer to the target, just from a spotter (which can be a tiny drone with a 'link).
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Or what looks like one of a dozen bums on the street. Cheaper than a drone, too.
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Or what looks like one of a dozen bums on the street. Cheaper than a drone, too.
More expendable too.
Mmmmmmmm soy-
lent green.
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Could a spotter be used as a teamwork test?
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Could a spotter be used as a teamwork test?
With a TacNet, maybe. Nice triangulated targeting to make absolutely, positively you're hitting the right target.
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Object size already accounts for a lot of the scatter. As stated earlier, Citymasters, IFVs, and MBTs are all large objects with a significant footprint on the landscape. Unguided rockets have a decent chance of hitting and doing damage. The airburst upgrade dramatically improves those chances, and guided munitions have an even better chance, especially since you don't need LOS from the firer to the target, just from a spotter (which can be a tiny drone with a 'link).
Not to have the same discussion on two boards, but unguided rockets simply do NOT have a decent chance to hit. The average Scatter is 14m, and an AV rocket needs to strike within 3m to inflict even minor damage, let alone penetrate vehicle armor. With 4D6, you're on a bell curve...think 1e D&D character gen...the results are weighted heavily toward the middle.
A typical trained individual (AGI 3, Hvy Wpn 3) simply CANNOT hit with a rocket unless the Defender Critical Glitches AND the Scatter dice come up a total of 6 or less on 4D6. This is AFTER rolling six hits on 6D6, mind you.
It is roughly the mathmatical eqivalent to rolling ten hits on ten dice...and he will still miss if the Defender scores a single hit to evade.
That doesn't qualify as a decent chance in my book.
You are better off hoping they get hit by a train at the next crossing.
Bear in mind that the entire system is designed such that, for every other (non-Scatter) weapon, an average shooter on an average roll vs an average defender will get one net hit, and thus strike the target. Ten net hits sounds broken to me.
Yes, there is splash damage. AV rockets degrade splash at 4D/1m - anything beyond 3m is negated, and even at 2m you are in small arms territory vs hard armor.
Yes, some vehicles are big, but the most common ones are simply armored version of street vehicles, and even a big tank should feel fairly safe if most of your munitions are hitting around 40ft out in a random direction.
Airburst helps somewhat, though your average miss distance is still twice your blast radius, and you're talking custom mods to a one-shot disposable. A mod that costs 3/4 of the cost of the weapon, and is meant to negate cover for GLs, not be a kill switch for bottle rockets.
Guided munitions are a separate, but related, issue...they shouldn't have scatter at all, unless they are being hit with ECM. But in any case, how guided munitions function has no bearing on how a rocket should behave.
Rockets (and GLs) are actually fairly precise and accurate - why make them into something so ridiculously wild and dangerous to everyone BUT the target?
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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You apparently missed the whole part about the vehicle being big. I mean, REALLY big. At 7 meters long, an IFV is a good sized target.
Also, anyone who is firing a rocket at an aware, moving target is wasting money. Unless you catch the target unawares, then, yes, the dumbfire rocket is going to have a problem hitting. However, that's not how a soldier uses the things. Essentially, AV rockets are the sniper shot against armor. With the ranges listed, moving into a concealed position and launching one at an unaware target isn't that hard, and should be the soldier's first instinct.
The trained soldier, with a dice pool of 6, should also be using Edge to boost his chances and make that one shot count. That pushes it into the 9 to 10 dice range. He should also be aiming, granting an extra die to hit. There is also the modifier for large targets (beyond the footprint). Anything with a body of 15+ grants a +2 (or more, GM's call) to the attacker's dice pool. That gives a DP of 12 to 13. Double the original DP. That gives an average of 4 hits vs. the scatter roll, assuming the (very) conservative bonus of only +2 for target size. With those 4 hits, plus the 3.5 meter (half of 7 meters long IFV) footprint, the scatter roll becomes a luck roll for the target. With the Airburst Link, the scatter roll is cut in half (from 4d6 to 2d6) which will typically mean, on average, the IFV will be popped. A MBT is larger, and much easier to hit.
Against a moving, dodging target, grab a guided munition. The sensor directly reduces scatter based on its rating. It's a highly effective tool to combat armor. Use the right tool for the job, and it will go far.
EDIT: To give an example of street vehicles, a typical sedan is roughly 5 meters long by 2 meters wide. A large truck is about 6 meters long by 2 meters wide. The sedan will grant a +1 dice modifier due to size (body 10 to 12), while the truck will grant the +2 (body 16). That's a much easier shot than you are making it out to be, Joe. Use all the details of the shot, and make sure your GM is aware of them, and uses them too!
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He has a point though, why make them so random? I mean even WWII rocket tubes have a pretty normal ballistic trajectory with minimal horizontal movement. A modern AT-4, once you learn the site system, is extremely effective within its "effective" range of 300m. (300m point target, 500m area target, 2100m maximum). Though if they were that effective in game everyone would have 5 of them in their trunk to take out everything from a street lamp to an MBT
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Why make regular combat so random? Have to inject some randomness in there to give the dice rollers something to do!
I think the extra randomness from scatter was mostly just there to figure out where an explosion goes off. Although, TBH, I did find it odd that the scatter was so large. Figuring in all the details is what made them nasty, for me.
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You apparently missed the whole part about the vehicle being big. I mean, REALLY big. At 7 meters long, an IFV is a good sized target.
Also, anyone who is firing a rocket at an aware, moving target is wasting money. Unless you catch the target unawares, then, yes, the dumbfire rocket is going to have a problem hitting. However, that's not how a soldier uses the things. Essentially, AV rockets are the sniper shot against armor. With the ranges listed, moving into a concealed position and launching one at an unaware target isn't that hard, and should be the soldier's first instinct.
The trained soldier, with a dice pool of 6, should also be using Edge to boost his chances and make that one shot count. That pushes it into the 9 to 10 dice range. He should also be aiming, granting an extra die to hit. There is also the modifier for large targets (beyond the footprint). Anything with a body of 15+ grants a +2 (or more, GM's call) to the attacker's dice pool. That gives a DP of 12 to 13. Double the original DP. That gives an average of 4 hits vs. the scatter roll, assuming the (very) conservative bonus of only +2 for target size. With those 4 hits, plus the 3.5 meter (half of 7 meters long IFV) footprint, the scatter roll becomes a luck roll for the target. With the Airburst Link, the scatter roll is cut in half (from 4d6 to 2d6) which will typically mean, on average, the IFV will be popped. A MBT is larger, and much easier to hit.
Against a moving, dodging target, grab a guided munition. The sensor directly reduces scatter based on its rating. It's a highly effective tool to combat armor. Use the right tool for the job, and it will go far.
EDIT: To give an example of street vehicles, a typical sedan is roughly 5 meters long by 2 meters wide. A large truck is about 6 meters long by 2 meters wide. The sedan will grant a +1 dice modifier due to size (body 10 to 12), while the truck will grant the +2 (body 16). That's a much easier shot than you are making it out to be, Joe. Use all the details of the shot, and make sure your GM is aware of them, and uses them too!
Edge as an argument that AV rockets aren't broken?
If you have to burn Edge to even hit with a weapon, then I think that qualifies as broken.
Airlink, again, helps - of course it helps, because it cuts the unreasonable amount of Scatter in half - but should not be necessary. Putting pressure on a gunshot wound helps, but you wouldn't use it as an argument that being shot isn't such a bad thing.
Sensors make it a missile. People hit moving vehicles with rockets all the time. People shoot down helicopters with unguided rockets. You are right - in SR4, missiles are better choice vs moving targets. But I'm not talking missiles.
Just because things like Airlink, Edge, Sensors, rolling all 6s to hit and all 1s on Scatter make it possible to hit doesn't mean that the Scatter RAW are reasonable.
I didn't include the size modifiers...but they're practically negligible vs the huge Scatter numbers.
Using your own numbers (discounting Airlink because it shouldn't be required - RPGs and LAWs don't have it, and don't need it), even allowing for Edge (which I would maintain is not a reasonable requirement for using a non-experimental weapon that has been in military use for over a hundred years at the time of the setting) we get the following:
4 hits vs a 7m wide target. Allowing for 1 defensive hit (you cannot assume an ambush - yes, it's nice, but it's not a GIVEN) of an average defensive roll, you're still looking at at 14m - 3m for Net Hits - 3.5 (half the length).
14 - 6.5 = 7.5m, which is more than twice the blast radius of an AV rocket. Not just a miss, a big miss if you consider the thing has a 50% chance of impacting closer to the firer.
And that's burning a point of Edge.
Yeah, if you burned Edge AND had Airlink, it would ONLY miss by a little, so you could do splash damage. But you'd still miss.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Personally if I were GMing if the vehicle is within 100m I'd say it doesn't get a dodge unless its sentient and has human levels of acceleration. An armored ground vehicle isn't going to have enough time to get into gear and change directions before the incoming fire lands. If its flying then it could quickly roll or yaw out of the way and thus get a dodge roll, but a tank or armored ground vehicle, at least in my mind, would only get a damage resistance roll and not a dodge roll, maybe a missile defense system roll if it has one.
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What's a good house rule for rocket fire then? Maybe half the usual scatter rules? (2d6 or 1d6 airburst?)
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One of the few good things to come from D&D 4E, the advice on house rules.
1) What does this house rule add to the fun of the game?
2) What complexity does this add to the game?
If you can't answer both questions with a combined total of 2 sentences, with 0 commas, don't add your houserule, you're just going to make the game more complicated and less fun.
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What's a good house rule for rocket fire then? Maybe half the usual scatter rules? (2d6 or 1d6 airburst?)
When in doubt, use the WAR! grenade launcher rule that turns them into normal ballistic weapons that roll to hit like any other ranged weapon, get staged up like a ranged weapon, and just do their base blast radius damage to things other than the primary target.
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Ohhh... Where is that in WAR ?
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Wait, something good came out of War!?
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WAR! pg140, under Grenade Launchers and Targeting.
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So need that book.
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So need that book.
You, of ALL people...need that book :D