Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Ammariel on (20:45:08/08-21-16)

Title: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Ammariel on (20:45:08/08-21-16)
I am right now reading the Alternate setting ShadowRun Book: Court of Shadows, who focus on the metaplane of the Sellie court of faeries. And it seem that no one discussing something it seem to imply.

That book seem to imply that there is no such things as Immortal Elves, that Those elves where actually using the fact that time was running much slower in the Sellie Court to pass the whole 5th age in a single lifespan, am i the only one who saw this? Did i got it wrong?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (21:26:14/08-21-16)
I think that only applies to the Seelie. Harlequin and Ehran had their first duel during the 18th century in France. Harley also implied he was King Richard the Lionheart when he cracked a joke that the armor Dunkie bequeathed him in his will still fit.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Sendaz on (22:19:14/08-21-16)
You have to remember this is an alternate setting, so some things may work differently.

Their  4th Age/Age of Legend  seemed fairly jolly till the mana leaked away and they do not speak a lot about Horrors in the same manner as the traditional setting did.

Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (03:57:53/08-22-16)
I am right now reading the Alternate setting ShadowRun Book: Court of Shadows, who focus on the metaplane of the Sellie court of faeries. And it seem that no one discussing something it seem to imply.

That book seem to imply that there is no such things as Immortal Elves, that Those elves where actually using the fact that time was running much slower in the Sellie Court to pass the whole 5th age in a single lifespan, am i the only one who saw this? Did i got it wrong?

That's one of the confusing elements of Court of Shadows, and one of the reasons I wish they'd have included some clearer definitions of what is a fae and what isn't, what are the Ways of the Wheel, some memo on Tir Na Nog, etc. I love the book, but it can't stand stand on its own as a full setting book, there are too many holes that require to hunt info in old supplements before it makes sense.

However by re-reading Aetherology and some older supplements (Shadows of Europe notably, but also some Earthdawn books), I think that's how it works:

- The Seelie Court's Tuatha de Danann and the Immortal Elves are completely different things:
  -> The Tuatha de Danann are described in Aetherology as "an elf-like fae with luminous skin." Their name is said to mean "Bright Shining Spirits". In several books it is implied they are the mythical ancestors of the elf metatype, possibly by mating with Metahumans in early Ages.
  -> Immortal Elves, however, are only a handful and the result of something the Dragons have done (as revealed in Caroline Spector's Scars). It is strongly hinted they are elves with Dragon blood.
- The Ways of the Wheel (described in Tir Na Nog, Shadows of Europe and others, mentioned in passing in Court of Shadows with zero explanation) is an elven tradition allowing elves to claim their ancient Danann heritage and a place at the Seelie Court. It already existed back in the Earthdawn era.
- The Seelie Court might actually be mentioned in Earthdawn as well: "An elf sees all life as a journey of discovery, change, growth, and ascendancy. Throughout his life, the elf treads a metaphysical pathway represented by the Draesis ti’Morel, the Wheel of Life. (...) As an elf ages, his journey along the Wheel le ads him through each Path until he reaches the Wheel’s heart. At this still center of being, he prepares for ascension into the metaplanes, to the mystical place known as Tesrae ke’Mellakabal, the Citadel of the Shining Ones." (That's from the Denizens of Barsaive / Namegivers' Compendium). "The Shining Ones" seem to refer to the Tuatha de Danann a.k.a. Bright Shining Spirits, and so their Citadel is likely to be the old name of what is now known as the Seelie Court.
- The Seelie Court consists in Tuatha de Danann faeries, a lot of low faeries, and "a number of elves who have renounced the physical world to live with the Seelie in order to advise the court or better understand their place on the Wheel." (Shadows of Europe, chapter on Tir Na Nog)

I have written a more detailed article on my website (http://fondationdraco.fr/2016/07/27/memo-court-of-shadows-les-fae-et-tir-na-nog/), but it is in French ^^'

Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Ammariel on (05:12:37/08-22-16)
That is all very interesting, i never have read any Earthdawn and that novel seem to sell for ridiculous price right now but will read your article, i happen to be French Canadian so no problem for me
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (06:21:37/08-22-16)
That is all very interesting, i never have read any Earthdawn and that novel seem to sell for ridiculous price right now but will read your article, i happen to be French Canadian so no problem for me

Scars is available on DTRPG as an ebook as well: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/84605/Scars-An-Earthdawn-Novel
(still a bit expensive, but more affordable that the short run that was printed).

It's part of a trilogy that begins in Earthdawn and ends in Shadowrun. The second book, Little Treasures, was never released in English AFAIK, although it was translated and published in French (as Petits Trésors). It's not a must-read, in my opinion, and probably the weakest of the trilogy. It mostly deal with Aina's horrible (pun intended) experiences with maternity.

The third book, Worlds without End, takes place in the SR era and was re-released as an ebook on DTRPG a couple of months ago: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/184299/Shadowrun-Legends-Worlds-Without-End
The book includes a visit to the Seelie Court, which is essentially consistent with what is described in Court of Shadows (although of course it was much harder to reach it back then).
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Ammariel on (06:42:19/08-22-16)
Cool will look into that when i finish reading Court of Shadow
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Mirikon on (13:31:58/08-22-16)
Also remember that much of the sourcebooks are written from an 'in-game' view. Perhaps not the view of the average PC, but certainly from the point of view of those living in the world. This means anything not put under the uber-crunchy "GM Only" sections should be taken with a grain of salt, due to an unreliable narrator.

Specifically talking about immortal elves, the truth about them is known by only a couple hundred beings on the planet, and they aren't keen on sharing that information, or if they do, they share it only with those who absolutely must know (like immediate family) and tack on the standard mystic "We'll kill you if you talk" stuff. Given that ALL of those beings 'in the know' about immortal elves' origins are dragons, immortal elves, and maybe a few very old and powerful spirits, we can say with some certainty that anything we see in the sourcebooks is... imperfect at best, and may well be outright misinformation.

As far as the Seelie Court, the flow of time in that realm being slower actually works as convenient camouflage for the truths about immortals, especially when you get magic involved in the narration.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Beta on (13:46:54/08-22-16)

I have written a more detailed article on my website (http://fondationdraco.fr/2016/07/27/memo-court-of-shadows-les-fae-et-tir-na-nog/), but it is in French ^^'

Thank you, that was really helpful!  (I don't have Court of Shadows yet, but the article helped me understand quite a bit about both Tir Na Nog and the Seelie Court (I have Aetherology but so far hadn't made the effort to wrap my head around that portion of it).

And to touch on the original question, I feel like this could be the reverse of the blind men and the elephant.  Instead of different views of one thing, it may be that there are different 'things' (elves/fae who have been around since once-upon-a-time) that people think are one and the same.  As mentioned, given that most of the books are written from within the game world POV, this is entirely possible to have happen, even when we read in one of the books that this is exactly so-and-so, no more and no less.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (03:16:03/08-23-16)
Actually, the idea that the Seelie court should be the "Shining Citadel" of the Tuatha de Danann isn't really supported by Aetherology ( though i'm sure that the Fae of the Seelie Court likes to view themselves as the "true" Tuatha ). In  Aetherology we are told that both the Seelie and the Unseelie Courts lie towards the middle of the plane of Faerie, though neither is seemingly Associated with the Tuatha except indirectly.

The Northern Islands however is mentioned as a hyper-metaplane, which is the legendary homeland of the elves and the home of the Tuatha. Also remember that the ruling families of TNN calls themselves Danann. So while they seem to be quick to claim this name for themselves, most likely since any relationship between the rulers and semi-divine ancestors only reinforces the rule of the aforementioned, this does not mean that they actually ARE Tuatha de Danann and As said Aetherology seems to explicitly make a difference between the Seelie and the home of the Tuatha de Danann. History is full of rulers WHO have claimed descent from divine and/or mythical people in order to legitimize their rule.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (06:20:05/08-23-16)
Actually, the idea that the Seelie court should be the "Shining Citadel" of the Tuatha de Danann isn't really supported by Aetherology ( though i'm sure that the Fae of the Seelie Court likes to view themselves as the "true" Tuatha ). In  Aetherology we are told that both the Seelie and the Unseelie Courts lie towards the middle of the plane of Faerie, though neither is seemingly Associated with the Tuatha except indirectly.

True. I think it's safe to say there's the Tuatha's original metaplane is the Northern Islands. The Tesrae ke’Mellakabal / Shining Citadel is probably located somewhere in that metaplane. In turn the Northern Islands are connected to the metaplane of Faerie. The Courts are somewhere "between" Faerie and the real world, acting as an "interface" between mortals and fae.

I also think it's clear that only a handful of "true" Danaan remain. Most of them have died during the War of Sorrows, or are still sleeping somewhere. It's worth mentioning the few that are active seem to keep an eye on Tir politics: Shadows of Europe mention that a "Great Spirit of the Tuatha" is present during Tir Na Nog's Council gatherings on equinoxes. And Shadows of Europe makes it clear that when that Great Spirit of the Tuatha is not happy or refuses to show up, the Danann families are shaking in their boots :)

Most of the so-called Tuatha de Danaan are actually Adepts of the Ways of the Wheel who believe that they are reincarnated Danaan. They do hold some sort of power and influence over the rest of the fae, though, so they might not be completely wrong. However the fae clearly distinguish between "new" fae and True Fae, so a True Fae will always hold more power at the Court.

A True Fae needs to be able to prove his/her claim... or fake it convincingly :) (lots of run opportunities there... ^^)

That being said, the association between the Seelie Court and the Tuatha De Danaan is rather explicit in Court of Shadows. Comment such as "These hand-drawn maps held the keys to unlocking the doors to the Seelie Court, whether the Tuatha de Danaan wanted them to or not, and their portrayals were eerily accurate" (p.20) or "Many of the wild fae have been joining the Seelie Court to work for the Tuatha de Danaan as their bodyguards and emissaries, translators and diviners, entertainers and scholars" (p.24) imply that they are, at the very least, running the show. Whether that rule expand to the rest of Faerie, however, is not clear. Considering they're coming from another plane, they probably conquered the other fae.

Last but not least, in Worlds without End Aina mention that the Seelie Court is the latest incarnation of "something much older and much more sinister". Whatever she's referring to (maybe Blood Wood, but maybe not -- she seems to view Tir Tairngire as the new version of Blood Wood), it's worth remembering the fae of ancient legend were a rather nasty bunch... :)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Mirikon on (10:29:10/08-23-16)
Tir Tairngir and Tir Na Nog are both two sides of the same coin as far as descendants from the Blood Wood are concerned. Tir Tairngir focuses on the political, and Tir Na Nog focuses on the spiritual. But the spiritual side of Tir Na Nog is what lead to all the queens up to Alachia, each more prideful and self-centered than the last, until Alachia, in her pride, chose to have her people undergo constant torment than to accept the Rites of Protection and Passage from the Therans. That massive act of blood magic, which corrupted an entire nation (both the land and the people), was born from the same attitudes that are present in Tir Na Nog.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (15:19:30/08-23-16)
from http://fondationdraco.fr/2016/07/27/memo-court-of-shadows-les-fae-et-tir-na-nog/

Quote
(ou, pour les plus vieux, Tír na nÓg)

Actually I believe the London Sourcebook had the first sourcebook description of the Seelie Court (and there is the second Secrets of Power novel). Tír na nÓg is much more feral in this version. Given the mystery that was later introduced about the Court's whereabouts, it's a bit comical that they mention it to be located in Galway as a side note. :D

The sense I got about the Tuatha de Danaan is that the myth might have a tangential connection to Fourth World history, but is probably distorted and largely just a tool the Danaan families use. (It was recorded in the middle ages not sure how old it even is.) From what people have said about Court of Shadows the myth or maybe even more generally fairy folklore seems to be much more prominent. I assume it's not strongly connected to the ideas that existed for the Court in terms of the crossover.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (17:19:17/08-23-16)
The sense I got about the Tuatha de Danaan is that the myth might have a tangential connection to Fourth World history, but is probably distorted and largely just a tool the Danaan families use. (It was recorded in the middle ages not sure how old it even is.) From what people have said about Court of Shadows the myth or maybe even more generally fairy folklore seems to be much more prominent. I assume it's not strongly connected to the ideas that existed for the Court in terms of the crossover.

Well in Worlds without End, which is THE trilogy of novels directly addressing the crossover, Aina has to make deals with a Fae spirit calling himself "Fin Bheara, King of the Daoine Sidhe" in order to access the Seelie Court, and from their interactions it seems they know each other but haven't met in a while. Then she has to summon black horses she describes as "the horses of the ancient Tuatha de Danaan" -- ancient, not "fabled" or "mythical", which seems to imply they were a real thing, not a myth. When she and Caimbeul get to the Court they encounter lots of fae which according to Aina were there in the past as well: "It almost made me forget my own mission, so good was it to gaze upon them again. The sprites and spriggans, brownies and hags, boogies, leprechauns, gnomes, and goblins all clustered around, throwing their crooked shadows against the rocky cliff behind them."

So while Court of Shadows certainly adds new things to the fae mythos in Shadowrun, as far as I can tell it doesn't really contradict what we knew before -- although it may contradict theories fans may have had.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (04:20:07/08-24-16)
In regards to the Tirs, i've actually always viewed Tir Tairngire more as the recreation of Shosara and Tir Na Nog as the recreation of Wyrmwood, as noone in their right mind would want to recreate Bloodwood. It would go a long way towards explaining the animosity between the two nations, also it fits with Tir Tairngires blend between traditional elven culture, magic and modern technology, whereas Tir Na Nog is much more strictly traditional in it's approach, which is in keeping with the ways of the old Elven Court ( Which the "modern" Seelie Court is a reflection of ).
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:56:20/08-24-16)
So while Court of Shadows certainly adds new things to the fae mythos in Shadowrun, as far as I can tell it doesn't really contradict what we knew before -- although it may contradict theories fans may have had.

Don't get me wrong there was a strong connection to faeries in all of the English European setting material for Shadowrun and in particular the Irish mythology for Tír na nÓg. So the myths have a true kernel, but it was either deliberately kept vague to make later additional connections to the Fourth World possible or they just didn't yet know in which direction to go. And of course then it got cut off along with the rest of the crossover.

And mind you I haven't yet looked into Court of Shadows, so I can really only base my impression on what others (you among them) have written about it. With that caveat out of the way, now that the focus is so much more on the fae mythology and the Court as a separate entity that existed in the last magical era rather than the reincarnation of some ancient precursor from either the Fourth World or before, the connection to Earthdawn seems more remote.

I'm tracing some of this stuff to build a timeline of clues for various crossover aspects (see here (http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Kategorie:Crossover-Aspekte), will put it on the English wiki later). My impression so far on the background of Tír na nÓg, in the beginning they were all over the place. The London Sourcebook mentions a dark, anti-human Unseelie Court and a spirit force, the Daoine Shidhe (possibly connected to Tír Tairngire), both opposing the ruling Seelie Court. But Wyrm Talk briefly talks about "Lady Brane Deigh of the Daoine Sidhe". Which makes sense because I think the Daoine Shidhe are a remnant of the Tuatha De Danaan? Now, that was all before Earthdawn and obviously the portrayal of Tír na nÓg was changed a lot when it got its own sourcebook. I believe the only time the Daoine Shidhe come up again is the scene with Finvarra from the novel that you mentioned. There they seem to be connected to the court, not really an opposing force. Whereas the Unseelie became a social movement or dissident organisation in both Tír na nÓg and Shadows of Europe which I always thought was a nice variation of the standard Seelie/Unseelie relationship.

And really it is not Court of Shadows that made the Unseelie Court the more traditional opposing force with mirrored power, but Aetherology.

In regards to the Tirs, i've actually always viewed Tir Tairngire more as the recreation of Shosara and Tir Na Nog as the recreation of Wyrmwood, as noone in their right mind would want to recreate Bloodwood.

Though Shosara got into trouble for being too open minded whereas Tír Tairngire was run by some really xenophobic fellas. ;) Anyway I actually think the answer is more complicated and probably has to do with shifting ideas about the crossover behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (00:22:22/08-25-16)
I think that only applies to the Seelie. Harlequin and Ehran had their first duel that is written about during the 18th century in France. Harley also implied he was King Richard the Lionheart when he cracked a joke that the armor Dunkie bequeathed him in his will still fit.

Always remember that these two have been going at it with each other for over five thousand years.  Yes, they have times of detente, like SR's 'present day', but both of them are hard-ass motherfuckers with egos the size of the Burj Dubai and chips on their shoulders the size of Gibraltar, and who are, quite simply, nowhere near as nice as your fiction makes the one of them out to be.

The only thing that might possibly be changing this is Aina Dupree's death.

That said, and getting back to the OP's question - actual IEs come from that whole dragon-heritage thing.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (00:56:01/08-25-16)
I think that only applies to the Seelie. Harlequin and Ehran had their first duel that is written about during the 18th century in France. Harley also implied he was King Richard the Lionheart when he cracked a joke that the armor Dunkie bequeathed him in his will still fit.

Always remember that these two have been going at it with each other for over five thousand years.  Yes, they have times of detente, like SR's 'present day', but both of them are hard-ass motherfuckers with egos the size of the Burj Dubai and chips on their shoulders the size of Gibraltar, and who are, quite simply, nowhere near as nice as your fiction makes the one of them out to be.

The only thing that might possibly be changing this is Aina Dupree's death.

That said, and getting back to the OP's question - actual IEs come from that whole dragon-heritage thing.

I know what you're referring to in my fiction. Nice? Maybe, maybe not. Manipulating the drek out of a young girl to further his own agenda? Absolutely. My advice is to keep in mind the 18 +/- year gap between SR's "present day" and when my fiction starts. I have been running under the assumption that Aina's death had a much larger effect on him than has been revealed thus far. There's also a 57 year gap between the first and second stories.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (01:50:02/08-25-16)
Kiiiind of one of my issues with your stories, but as I've said before, any extensive commentary would have to be via PM.  Ask if you are interested, but best also have thick skin.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (20:41:37/08-26-16)
"That book seem to imply that there is no such things as Immortal Elves, that Those elves where actually using the fact that time was running much slower in the Sellie Court to pass the whole 5th age in a single lifespan, am i the only one who saw this? Did i got it wrong?"

Court of Shadows is not making any statements about immortal elves. The Seelie Court proper (that is, the court that spent the 5th world on a fractured metaplane) is not dependent/related to immortal elves. Now, that statement I made is not 100% true. There are areas of overlap. Alachia, for example, and a few other bits yet to be revealed. But even Alachia's relationship with the 5th world court is not entirely clear. What seems to be clear is that the 6th world elves and at least a few immortals did make some attempts to throw their weight around in the court when the 6th world opened up some possibility for them to cross over, but that story hasn't been told in its entirety and didn't go exactly the way the 6th world elves wanted.
STILL... there is a 6th world born Queen over the court.

But... yes time works oddly on the metaplane and is more a tool for storytelling than any implication or commentary on any pre-existing SR lore.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (07:51:36/08-27-16)
There are areas of overlap. Alachia, for example, and a few other bits yet to be revealed.

Looking forward to that :)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (09:10:48/08-27-16)
@opti: The quote from Worlds without End Marzhin referred to earlier in the thread—in full "The Seelie Court was but another incarnation of something much older and more sinister. How many of them remembered, or even knew, the full story?"—is that something that's on the radar from the perspective of Court of Shadows?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (13:02:22/08-27-16)
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (16:27:32/08-27-16)
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended.

I actually prefer it that way, personally. Shadowrun should do its own thing, with some vague hints and connections to the previous worlds, rather than being "just" a remake of how things were in Earthdawn.
Which is why I really like how things are done in Court of Shadows. It's fresh, unique to the setting, and longtime fans can spot some well-hidden references below the surface. Much better than "Blood Wood 2.0"
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (22:50:50/08-27-16)
As much as my heart wants to see ALL THE CONNECTIONS made particular, I find myself agreeing with you in practice. Having said that, I would never count out anything.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:49:58/08-28-16)
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended

Hm, personally I have never seen it as this clear cut, though it certainly is a strong possibility. (By the way I feel it would have to be a continuation of Wyrm Wood. No one still around from that time, except maybe Alachia thinks going back to Blood Wood would be a good idea.) In the development history the Seelie Court was entered into Shadowrun before Earthdawn was created. So at the very least this folklore element is mixed in with the reincarnation of the Elven Court. Obviously Wyrm Wood was neither a fae court nor a world in between.

So actually it is the portions of Worlds without End in Tír na nÓg that give me the overall impression there must be more to the story. Aina recognizes all kinds of elements of the Irish mythology as history she personally witnessed. But none of that is part of the history of the Elven Court in Earthdawn. Between the time of Alachia's reign and the end of the Fourth World this other history Aina was part of must have taken place. So maybe the Seelie Court is what became of Blood Wood or maybe it is a continuation in the sense that all of the Elven courts in Earthdawn were said to be modeled after the one in Wyrm Wood. And there is the suggestion that Shosara wanted to become the new seat of the Elven Queen. Maybe the Seelie Court was another contender.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (23:34:10/08-28-16)
Maybe. But the Court was cut off almost completely from the 5th world on its own fractured metaplane and only started being influenced in earnest again after the awakening. Any cultural trappings that Aina recognized could have been imports that happened once Brane Deigh became Queen, which was well before Aina and Harley showed up there (to say nothing of the fact that time moves differently there, so Brane could have had even more time to influence things there than the amount of time that was happening on Earth.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:00:57/08-29-16)
Not quite sure where you are going with this argument of imported culture. Is the Seelie Court something else that the immortal elves just use to re-establish the Elven Court? Or is the Seelie Court the Elven Court of Blood Wood in direct continuation and the stuff from Irish mythology is added to it?

Either way it goes to my point about there being more to the story. If the Seelie Court is just used as the new seat of the Elven Queen and it existed as something else before, then "another incarnation of something much older and more sinister" could very well refer to it rather than Blood Wood and in any case it would have its own interesting history. If the Seelie Court is the Elven Court the question remains how and when it was settled by fae and why it moved to a metaplane. And that might very well be the answer to how it was cleansed.

I wonder though, if I understood the development blogs by Monica Valentinelli correctly the Tuatha De are the one's who lived in the Seelie Court at the end of the Fourth Age. The "cultural trappings" we are talking about come from Irish mythology. So would it not be their history or at least a fictionalised version of it? Or did the immortal elves plant stories during the Fifth World for example about the four treasures (one thing Aina recognizes is the Sword of Nuadha) so that they would be connected to the Tuatha De Danaan in mythology when in reality they were not? Seems overly complicated. :D

Of course in the end it goes to the question what would be enough to be considered a continuation of the old Elven Court. Any place could make that claim and try to support it with lineage, cultural artefacts, endorsements (maybe by a former Elven Queen), moral superiority or vision of true elficity. I would argue having Oak Heart or maybe a sapling would go a long way to support such a claim, but the tree probably did not survive.

By the way I don't have a real preference for how this should be handled. I would be really interested to know more about what scenarios the authors in the 90s had in mind when they came up with the crossover. Other than that, after almost two decades of speculation your guess is probably as good as mine. So on the one hand there is enough material to extrapolate and expansion holds the risk of going in a direction one does not like but on the other hand having some new stepping stones or even filling in some of the gaps with new ideas could be interesting as long as it plays nicely with established canon.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:01:51/08-29-16)
As a side note the portrayal of the Seelie Court in Choose Your Enemies Carefully as half forest is much closer to Alachia's Palace than the castle from Worlds without End.

[..] she seems to view Tir Tairngire as the new version of Blood Wood

I meant to ask, what gives you the impression that is how Aina sees Tír Tairngire?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (16:14:59/08-29-16)
I meant to ask, what gives you the impression that is how Aina sees Tír Tairngire?

Mostly this passage, when Aina leaves Lugh Surehand's mansion:

Quote
The limo’s headlights illuminated row after row of dormant rose bushes.
Thorns.
So many thorns.

Not much, I know, but the fact Aina notices seemed to imply she was connecting Tir Tairngire to Blood Wood, in her mind.
Of course, she also has a dream about thorns when she's about to meet Lady Brane, so she might actually see both Tirs as new Blood Woods ^^
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Nath on (18:21:02/08-29-16)
The sense I got about the Tuatha de Danaan is that the myth might have a tangential connection to Fourth World history, but is probably distorted and largely just a tool the Danaan families use. (It was recorded in the middle ages not sure how old it even is.)
In real life, Irish mythology displays similarities with other celtic mythology, which would hint to a common origin somewhere in Central Europe before 400 BCE and possibly much older (*). The Tuatha Dé Danann and their opposition to Formorians is likely to be related to Ancient greek Olympians/Titans or Scandinavian Aesir/Vanir. The Tuatha Dé Danann mythos does not appear to include the "new generation of gods" trope that other European pantheons have (again, seemingly from the same Indo-European source). On the other hand, its variation on the "Five Ages of Man" (with six ages, the Tuatha being the fifth) includes many biblical reference that suggest late influences.

It worth noting that early Irish mythos, as far as 2nd or 1st millenia BCE, had to deal with visible neolithic monument such as Newgrange (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange) (built circa 3200-3100 BCE) to which the Tuatha were later associated. So whatever mythos they had associated to those monuments and retained, it was merged to the Tuatha mythos when it formed.

( * Outside of the topic discussed here, that's not completely irrelevant in Shadowrun, as the Knights of Rage criminal organization, under Celedyr tutelage, are uniting people of nubian, welsh, irish, breton and austrian origins on the basis of a common mystical heritage)

Tir Tairngir and Tir Na Nog are both two sides of the same coin as far as descendants from the Blood Wood are concerned. Tir Tairngir focuses on the political, and Tir Na Nog focuses on the spiritual. But the spiritual side of Tir Na Nog is what lead to all the queens up to Alachia, each more prideful and self-centered than the last, until Alachia, in her pride, chose to have her people undergo constant torment than to accept the Rites of Protection and Passage from the Therans. That massive act of blood magic, which corrupted an entire nation (both the land and the people), was born from the same attitudes that are present in Tir Na Nog.
From what I remember of Earthdawn Bloodwood (not so much), noble families and clans played a major role. Tir Tairngire rite of progression rather seemed designed so as to allow the council of princes to make or break dynasty on a whim. I also always find it telling that they choose to have a High Prince instead of a King or Queen.

On the other hand, Tir Tairngire is also where the (few) named NPC from Earthdawn era reappeared in Shadowrun era, including Alachia (which I believe, was originally intented by Tir Tairngire authors to be Jenna ni'Faira, before someone dropped the ball, requiring the introduction of Sosan Naerain). To me, Tir na nOg is structurally closer to Earthdawn era Bloodwood, but for some reasons the immortal elves who use to be there went on to create something new in Oregon (or more accurately, to jumpstart something, with a crowd of twenty-something people, due to elven demographics).

It also worth noting that the way the Seelie Court hide in the metaplans seems like a pretty good solution to the Scourge, which in turn suggest it wasn't available at the time. Which may be the origin of the divide. By establishing in the metaplans, the Seelie Court no longer need Alachia or Theran magic to survive the next Scourge. But meanwhile, immortal elves like Alachia don't need the Seelie Court to hide during the Fifth Age.

I'm considering the possibility that the Tuatha could be "regular" elves that discovered how immortals had manipulated them. If you look at those so-called "great elves" as the bastard offspring of dragons and elves, those elves could pose as "pure", the ancestors of the elven race. Moving into the metaplans would allow them to live as long as their immortal rivals, and pass through the Fifth age (with possibly some of them leaving from time to time, infusing Irish clans, even those of Anglo-Norman origins, with elven genes, explaining that great number of elven birth).
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (20:51:42/08-29-16)
I meant to ask, what gives you the impression that is how Aina sees Tír Tairngire?

Mostly this passage, when Aina leaves Lugh Surehand's mansion:

Quote
The limo’s headlights illuminated row after row of dormant rose bushes.
Thorns.
So many thorns.

Not much, I know, but the fact Aina notices seemed to imply she was connecting Tir Tairngire to Blood Wood, in her mind.
Of course, she also has a dream about thorns when she's about to meet Lady Brane, so she might actually see both Tirs as new Blood Woods ^^

She may have also been concerned that either Tir Tainrgire or Tir na nOg may cause history to repeat itself. *shudders*
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (04:57:14/08-30-16)
In real life, Irish mythology displays similarities with other celtic mythology, [..]

Interesting. Of course the problem with using this kind of background is the uncertainty what the authors in the 90s knew about the topic, since it is so much easier to access now. Also comparative mythology and archaeology made advances in the meantime as evidenced by our 2011 Year of Chaos.

including Alachia (which I believe, was originally intented by Tir Tairngire authors to be Jenna ni'Faira, before someone dropped the ball, requiring the introduction of Sosan Naerain).

Sósan Naerain is in Tir Tairngire though, p.36 where the topic of a secret thirteenth member is discussed and Aegis describes meeting her.

It also worth noting that the way the Seelie Court hide in the metaplans seems like a pretty good solution to the Scourge, which in turn suggest it wasn't available at the time.

I think Aina suggests in Worlds without End, that the Veil would be a protection against the horrors.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (03:14:38/08-31-16)
I had forgotten about it, but there is actually a short section in Tir Tairngire "Irish Connections", that talks about the influence of the Irish Gaelic or broader Celtic culture on elven culture in general and also that of the American Tír in particular. When Tír na nÓg became more powerful, those links were de-emphasized by the powers that be of Tír Tairngire.

So it's not just Tír na nÓg, they wanted to link elves to Celtic culture. Which is interesting because I don't really recognize that in Earthdawn, which was developed at the same time. Now the text largely assumes this is about borrowing elements for the purpose of constructing an elven culture that feels steeped in tradition, but of course Spes (the text's ingame author) isn't in the know. And he seems to at least entertain the notion, that the links could run deeper:

Quote
However, the astounding similarities between elements of the Awakening and Irish-European mythology make a direct and obvious connection.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (03:45:24/08-31-16)
I had forgotten about it, but there is actually a short section in Tir Tairngire "Irish Connections", that talks about the influence of the Irish Gaelic or broader Celtic culture on elven culture in general and also that of the American Tír in particular. When Tír na nÓg became more powerful, those links were de-emphasized by the powers that be of Tír Tairngire.

So it's not just Tír na nÓg, they wanted to link elves to Celtic culture. Which is interesting because I don't really recognize that in Earthdawn, which was developed at the same time. Now the text largely assumes this is about borrowing elements for the purpose of constructing an elven culture that feels steeped in tradition, but of course Spes (the text's ingame author) isn't in the know. And he seems to at least entertain the notion, that the links could run deeper:

Quote
However, the astounding similarities between elements of the Awakening and Irish-European mythology make a direct and obvious connection.

It may also be as simple as an attempt to fill in the gaps after having so much of their history lost over the years. Sure, Aithne has the Rose Crystal, which ostensibly holds all of the knowledge and history of the Wyrm Wood. However, AFAIK, draconic memory gems can only be accessed by someone with the power of Dragonspeech. AFAIK, none of the immortals currently still living have that ability.

If that's true, the rose crystal is just a gaudy paperweight until someone with the power of dragonspeech (read: a dragon or a first-gen dragonkin) is willing to translate for them. That would probably require accessing the jewel while maintaining a mindlink with whoever wants the info. With the schism between the immortals and the dragons growing ever larger (with the banishment of Hestaby and the dual between Harlequin and Ghostwalker), I don't think that'll happen anytime soon.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (03:54:50/08-31-16)
So it's not just Tír na nÓg, they wanted to link elves to Celtic culture. Which is interesting because I don't really recognize that in Earthdawn, which was developed at the same time.

Coincidentally, Earthdawn 4th edition is going to have a book dedicated to Elven Nations, and apparently Shosara has a strong Celtic vibe, at least judging from the cover art...

(http://fondationdraco.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ED4_ElvenNations_Cover.jpg)

Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (04:20:03/08-31-16)
So it's not just Tír na nÓg, they wanted to link elves to Celtic culture. Which is interesting because I don't really recognize that in Earthdawn, which was developed at the same time.

Coincidentally, Earthdawn 4th edition is going to have a book dedicated to Elven Nations, and apparently Shosara has a strong Celtic vibe, at least judging from the cover art...

(http://fondationdraco.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ED4_ElvenNations_Cover.jpg)

The sound I just made was not metahuman.

(http://38.media.tumblr.com/a69a718b82e2b699f22f59cdbe9e42e9/tumblr_n9qj6n6A5S1smcbm7o1_400.gif)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (04:42:24/08-31-16)
So it's not just Tír na nÓg, they wanted to link elves to Celtic culture. Which is interesting because I don't really recognize that in Earthdawn, which was developed at the same time.

Coincidentally, Earthdawn 4th edition is going to have a book dedicated to Elven Nations, and apparently Shosara has a strong Celtic vibe, at least judging from the cover art...

(http://fondationdraco.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ED4_ElvenNations_Cover.jpg)

Could just as easily be a Scandinavian vibe, Shosara is supposed to be corresponding to Scandinavia after all. The shields and weapons and decorations could just as well be Scandinavian inspired tbh. But i'm also ooking forward to this book. I especially wanna know about the former "Western Kingdoms" now known as "The Waste", because i have a hunch the western kingdoms correspond to the British Isles, which would go a long way towards explaining Tir Na Nog and the general high birthrate of elves in the British Isles.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (11:19:40/08-31-16)
Though if I look at this artwork for the Game Master Screen, presumedly a Barsavian scene, by the same artist I think he likes Celtic knot work in general and might draw from that for inspiration without trying to connect the style to elves in particular:

http://www.mceran-art.com/index.php?view=image&format=raw&type=orig&id=98&option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=122

That said the various people who worked on Earthdawn after FASA retained some knowledge about the original ideas so what they come up with might absolutely give further insight. Though I wish they would progress faster.

the Rose Crystal, which ostensibly holds all of the knowledge and history of the Wyrm Wood.

Where do you get this from?

Shosara is supposed to be corresponding to Scandinavia after all.

I recently had a look at this and I think Shosara is on the Kola peninsula. That's pretty much, where the arrow on the Theran Empire map points to, but it also fits the description of being "surrounded on three sides by the Gwyn Sea". And using the FASA approach that probably makes Khistova (whose example got Shosara into trouble) Murmansk.

former "Western Kingdoms" now known as "The Waste", because i have a hunch the western kingdoms correspond to the British Isles, which would go a long way towards explaining Tir Na Nog and the general high birthrate of elves in the British Isles.

Pretty sure the Western Kingdoms consist of the area around the Eastern Baltic coast, where Sereatha lies. For example Queen Failla hailed from the Kingdoms where she had reigned in Sereatha.

But remember the Tuatha De Danaan themselves came to Ireland. Assuming the legends are (partially) based on elven history, then it would work out, if at some point in the remaining ca. 2000 years of the Fourth World elves settled there and created/conquered/co-founded the Seelie Court to be in place for the start of the Court of Shadows story.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (12:31:13/08-31-16)
Seratha is usually located on the Baltic peninsula, which puts Shosara ( located to the North and West of Seratha in Scandinavia ). Also if you look Earthdawn up on the net, several sites Places Shosara in Scandinavia ( including Wikipedia ), not that that in itself is proof ofc. If you look at the  map from the Theran empire box, then i find it hard to place the western kingdoms anywhere biut the British Isles, and yes they are mentioned separately from Sereatha and Shosara, so they are presumably located even further to the West from those two, Again it can't really be anywhere except the British Isles.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (19:19:15/08-31-16)

the Rose Crystal, which ostensibly holds all of the knowledge and history of the Wyrm Wood.

Where do you get this from?

The SR wiki. http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Rose_Crystal (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Rose_Crystal)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (04:46:58/09-01-16)
Seratha is usually located on the Baltic peninsula, which puts Shosara ( located to the North and West of Seratha in Scandinavia ). Also if you look Earthdawn up on the net, several sites Places Shosara in Scandinavia ( including Wikipedia ), not that that in itself is proof ofc. If you look at the  map from the Theran empire box, then i find it hard to place the western kingdoms anywhere biut the British Isles, and yes they are mentioned separately from Sereatha and Shosara, so they are presumably located even further to the West from those two, Again it can't really be anywhere except the British Isles.

(http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/103207/theran.jpg)

The arrow pointing to Shosara on the upper end is next to Arkhangelsk, Russia and points over the White Sea I would argue at the Kola peninsula. I mean it's Fennoscandia just not the Scandinavian peninsula one might think of.

The marker for Sereatha on the map, places it close to Ventspils, Latvia, were the DIMR conducted an excavation (Loose Alliances p.77). As I said before I understand Sereatha to be situated in the Western Elven Kingdoms, as its own kingdom or seat of power in one of them. Unless these Kingdoms are much more wide-ranging and even then they would probably extend to Southern Scandinavia before they reach the British Isles.

Shosara ( located to the North and West of Seratha in Scandinavia ).

So what source indicates Shosara is to the North and West of Sereatha?


the Rose Crystal, which ostensibly holds all of the knowledge and history of the Wyrm Wood.

Where do you get this from?

The SR wiki. http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Rose_Crystal (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Rose_Crystal)

Ah, okay. I think this summary in the wiki:

Quote
The Rose Crystal is a draconic memory gem, with information which is apparently significant to the immortal elves of the Elven Court of Wyrm Wood , and possibly to the Heavenherds of Thera as well.

goes a bit beyond what's in the sources. The Rose Crystal is significant, but I don't think the sources say anything about the importance of information contained within it. (Could be wrong of course, I would have to check.)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (05:11:06/09-01-16)
The rose crystal, IMO, fits the description Vasdenjas gave of memory gems in Book of Dragons. Given it's size it probably doesn't hold a lot of information, but what it does hold, if anything, is apparently incredibly important to the immortal elves of the Wyrm Wood. Obviously more than just a shiny bauble, since it's exchange for the everliving flower pissed Alachia off enough to commit her army to the second Theran War.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (05:42:54/09-01-16)
About Shosara. According to what i have found out by searching the web, it was originally meant to be in Arkhangelsk, but it was retconned to be located in Sweden by Redbrick, who had a supplement in the Works about Shosara, which unfortunately never came out. Whether it was Redbricks idea or the idea originated with FASA i dont known, but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Apparently the original Theran map is supposed to be "inaccurate"

Whether FASA's upcoming Elven Nations will follow this decision or change it Again remains to be seen, but as i commented earlier the cover art actually does have a vikingish feel to it, with the shields, weapons, beards, braids and fur lined clothes and the landscape behind them could very easily be a Swedish Fjord. Now people have mixed feelings about this naturally, personally i like it, i like that they  spread the cultures and Places more out geographically, it makes the ED World seem larger and less insular tbh.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (05:55:01/09-01-16)
Whether FASA's upcoming Elven Nations will follow this decision or change it Again remains to be seen

If I'm not mistaken the Elven Nations book is basically picking up and finishing the work RedBrick has started, just like the upcoming Travar book is based on an unfinished ED3 supplement.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:07:27/09-01-16)
The rose crystal, IMO, fits the description Vasdenjas gave of memory gems in Book of Dragons. Given it's size it probably doesn't hold a lot of information, but what it does hold, if anything, is apparently incredibly important to the immortal elves of the Wyrm Wood. Obviously more than just a shiny bauble, since it's exchange for the everliving flower pissed Alachia off enough to commit her army to the second Theran War.

The Rose Crystal is a memory crystal. That is stated in the Dragons PDF.

But to the argument, Alachia gained the Rose Crystal when the Everliving Flower was stolen. So if she really prized it for its information, then she should have been more happy with this exchange. After all the Flower appears to be less useful, its only known function showing the presence of Dragonkin. (duh ;)) So I think it was more about the symbolic value.

About Shosara. According to what i have found out by searching the web, it was originally meant to be in Arkhangelsk, but it was retconned to be located in Sweden by Redbrick, who had a supplement in the Works about Shosara, which unfortunately never came out. Whether it was Redbricks idea or the idea originated with FASA i dont known, but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Apparently the original Theran map is supposed to be "inaccurate"

Thanks. I have to read up on some of this for the Crossover aspects. Unfortunately the old Red Brick forums are not really preserved in the Internet Archive, few old forums are.

The arrow could point at Arkhangelsk rather than beyond it, given that it's on the margin. It would have to point a bit lower at the tip of the bay to indicate Arkhangelsk directly. Hm, I don't know, Shosara is described as bordered by sea on three sides that would fit with the Kola peninsula not really with the city or the surrounding land. Maybe this was already a misreading of the clues. :)

but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Sweden has 14%, but France has 18%. Overall it seems to be above 10% on average in Northern Europe and tends to be more around 5% in Central to Eastern/Southern Europe. I guess the elf population does have a bit of a Nordic bias (though at 14% I wouldn't call it of the chart).

but as i commented earlier the cover art actually does have a vikingish feel to it, with the shields, weapons, beards, braids and fur lined clothes and the landscape behind them could very easily be a Swedish Fjord.

True.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (07:29:38/09-01-16)
About Shosara. According to what i have found out by searching the web, it was originally meant to be in Arkhangelsk, but it was retconned to be located in Sweden by Redbrick, who had a supplement in the Works about Shosara, which unfortunately never came out. Whether it was Redbricks idea or the idea originated with FASA i dont known, but it fits with the description of Sweden in Shadows of Europe, where Sweden is also shown to have a high percentage of elves in the population.

Apparently the original Theran map is supposed to be "inaccurate"

Whether FASA's upcoming Elven Nations will follow this decision or change it Again remains to be seen, but as i commented earlier the cover art actually does have a vikingish feel to it, with the shields, weapons, beards, braids and fur lined clothes and the landscape behind them could very easily be a Swedish Fjord. Now people have mixed feelings about this naturally, personally i like it, i like that they  spread the cultures and Places more out geographically, it makes the ED World seem larger and less insular tbh.

There's also RL evidence that elves hung around for quite a while in Scandinavia. Ljosalfar, who are described in the sagas as exceptionally tall, fair-skinned, fair-haired, and usually blue-eyed elves who seem fairly aloof about humans. Now, who does that sound like?

*cough* Ehran *cough*

Ahem, sorry. Seem to have a bit of a tickle in my throat.  ;D
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (07:34:59/09-01-16)
Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (07:40:24/09-01-16)
Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.
Quote

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (07:50:49/09-01-16)
Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.
Quote

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.
:) Indeed.

Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara, this is why i say that it is somewhere West of Sweden and that pretty much leaves very few Places in Europe, and of those Places it fits best with the British Isles in my opinion, but maybe it's because i'm reading too much SR into it.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (08:00:32/09-01-16)
Well thats true, but you only described half of them, in norse mythology you also have the Dökkálfar ( Dark Elves ), which are dark skinned and live in the earth in Svartalfheimr.
Quote

I'm aware of the Dokkalfar (I'm Asatru, for Odin's sake! Lol). I was referring specifically to the Ljosalfar. The Dokkalfar could easily be other elves like Aina.
:) Indeed.

Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara, this is why i say that it is somewhere West of Sweden and that pretty much leaves very few Places in Europe, and of those Places it fits best with the British Isles in my opinion, but maybe it's because i'm reading too much SR into it.

That would be most likely, IMO.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (10:53:38/09-01-16)
Well in order to not veer too much of course, then i will return to the question of "The Western Kingdoms". If Shosara has been retconned to be in Sweden, where does that put "The Western Kingdoms", especially since they are mentioned in the lineup for "Elven Nations" separately from Sereatha and Shosara

Ah, you mean this:

Quote
Elven Nations - sourcebook covering the Blood Wood, Shosara, Sereatha, and the former Western Kingdoms, now known as the Wastes

Well, I assume Sereatha is named separately because it's the one place of the Western Kingdoms that is not "the Wastes". Anyway those begin west of Barsaive, unless they mean different Wastes that would still be the stretch of land between the Baltic coast and Barsaive.

By the way while there have always been claims that many elven nations exist, the only two places that ever get mentioned by name and get a bit of a description are Shosara and Sereatha. It would be really nice if Elven Nations could go beyond that and at least name a few more.


I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (11:07:43/09-01-16)
I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (05:16:22/09-02-16)
I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".

The Dark Elves = Dwarves is one of several possible interpretations. I actually wrote my final thesis at university about the elves in norse mythology, and while this is not the time or place for a lengthy discussion about this subject i can outline the 3 main interpretations.

1: Dark Elves = Dwarves
2: Dark Elves vs. Light Elves is an invention of Snorri's Edda since it only figures there and is therefore likely a christian influence.
3: Elves = Vanir, spirits/deities that are linked to both fertility and death. Hence the separation of dark and light eleves could Refer to those vanir that stayed 
    behind in Vanaheim and to those that went with Njord, Freya and Freyr to go live in Alfheimr in Asgard at the conclusion of their war with the Aesir.

@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (06:16:28/09-02-16)
I thought Svartalfen are dwarves.

Yes, also no. According to Norse Mythology, they're Dwarves, but the ancient Norse also had a very different definition of what a Dwarf is. In their mythology, the only major difference between them and the elves is their skin/hair color and where they live. Each saga describes them slightly differently, but that's the gist of it.

So Norse Dwarves are very different from what you usually picture when you see the word "Dwarf". Dokkalfar literally means "Dark Elves".

The Dark Elves = Dwarves is one of several possible interpretations. I actually wrote my final thesis at university about the elves in norse mythology, and while this is not the time or place for a lengthy discussion about this subject i can outline the 3 main interpretations.

1: Dark Elves = Dwarves
2: Dark Elves vs. Light Elves is an invention of Snorri's Edda since it only figures there and is therefore likely a christian influence.
3: Elves = Vanir, spirits/deities that are linked to both fertility and death. Hence the separation of dark and light eleves could Refer to those vanir that stayed 
    behind in Vanaheim and to those that went with Njord, Freya and Freyr to go live in Alfheimr in Asgard at the conclusion of their war with the Aesir.

Shame you probably live nowhere near me. I could discuss the complexities of Norse mythology (as well as a few others) over coffee or tea for DAYS.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (07:27:30/09-02-16)
@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?

Sure, I mentioned the example of Queen Failla. This portion is from The Blood Wood p.29 and refers to her:

Quote
During her years in the Western Kingdoms she had ardently adhered to the ways of the Elven Court, down to the smallest details of dress and the pronunciation of words; under her stewardship, the city of Sereatha had been dubbed "the Little Court" for its strong likeness to the Court at Wyrm Wood.

But even more clear p.40:

Quote
Alachia hails from Sereatha, the City of Spires, in the Western Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (07:47:19/09-02-16)
@lokii. Can you point to where it is established that Sereatha is part of the Western Kingdoms, because it doesn't seem like they are the same and i don't remember reading something that led me to that conclusion either?

Sure, I mentioned the example of Queen Failla. This portion is from The Blood Wood p.29 and refers to her:

Quote
During her years in the Western Kingdoms she had ardently adhered to the ways of the Elven Court, down to the smallest details of dress and the pronunciation of words; under her stewardship, the city of Sereatha had been dubbed "the Little Court" for its strong likeness to the Court at Wyrm Wood.



But even more clear p.40:

Quote
Alachia hails from Sereatha, the City of Spires, in the Western Kingdoms.

Thanks, it does seem pretty clear cut. I Wonder what they will do with that now though, i mean with the original placement of Shosara, the name "Western kingdoms" made sense, now it just seems a bit odd, to name something western kingdoms, when it isn't the westernmost kingdom with Shosara's retconned placement in Sweden. I Wonder if there's more retconning in the book or if they just keep silent about it, and i still find it odd that they mention Seratha and the western kingdoms as two separate Places in the lineup for the book.....ahh well....patience Young padawan.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (12:20:01/09-10-16)
Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

Quote
> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (21:40:48/09-10-16)
Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

Quote
> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht

This is why I brought Brisingamen into my stories. Glad to know I'm not the only one who made that connection.  ;)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (03:51:22/09-13-16)
Something that fits our Norse-Elf-connection from Dragons of the Sixth World p.155-156:

Quote
> Unless my research is mistaken. Cipher Hunter is actually Dr. Barbara Schoepke, formally of the University of Berlin's Archeology Department. Most of her research centered on tying artifacts and Norse legends to the Awakening. She proposed the theory that the ancient Norse heroes were actually elves in a previous age.
> Study Hound

> That explains why the Atlantean Foundation has been spending so much time digging up Norse artifacts.
> Konwacht

Oooh Nice catch! I remember reading this when i bought the book, but at the time i wasn't aware of the Whole Sweden=Shosara, so it didn't carry the same meaning as it does now.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (09:40:40/09-17-16)
Another note: I said the Elven Court at Wyrm Wood was not a fae court and I don't think the following changes that. But I noticed that there is a fairy-like creature described in The Blood Wood: a songsprite.

Quote
These small, delicate, beautiful creatures flit around on sparkling wings seemingly spun of gossamer threads. [...] Many song sprites are harmless, and visitors may see a few flitting around Queen Alachia's palace.

They are said to be a variety of will o' the wisp, so either they have been created by the magicians too or have developed in the meantime. Overall I don't feel the authors wanted to make a point about the origin of fae beings with any of this. But who knows.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: BlackMyron on (20:05:25/10-03-16)
It should be noted that Harlequin angered Tir na nOg's "Lady of the Court" over their use of Celtic culture in the Aztlan SB:

LADY OF THE COURT:  It is also interesting that so many of the cultural trappings [the Aztlan people] have chosen come from a culture that is a mere 600 years old.
THE LAUGHING MAN:  Yes, always best to reach back to that really ancient Celtic tradition.
LADY OF THE COURT:  You are pushing me.
THE LAUGHING MAN: Yup.  <chuckle>
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (05:09:32/10-04-16)
It should be noted that Harlequin angered Tir na nOg's "Lady of the Court" over their use of Celtic culture in the Aztlan SB:

LADY OF THE COURT:  It is also interesting that so many of the cultural trappings [the Aztlan people] have chosen come from a culture that is a mere 600 years old.
THE LAUGHING MAN:  Yes, always best to reach back to that really ancient Celtic tradition.
LADY OF THE COURT:  You are pushing me.
THE LAUGHING MAN: Yup.  <chuckle>

Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.

But yeah it is a main reason why my reactions to CoS so far have been OMG, FFS, /Facepalm with the occasional Hmm interesting thrown in there, but what irritates me the most is how they totally and completely either ignore or directly contradict earlier products dealing with TNN or the Seelie Court/Faerie.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Sengir on (14:15:07/10-04-16)
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (14:26:21/10-04-16)
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
For all we know, those cultures pulled their inspiration from the elves and the elves just reclaimed it after the awakening.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (03:35:03/10-05-16)
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
For all we know, those cultures pulled their inspiration from the elves and the elves just reclaimed it after the awakening.

All culture is of course in some way based on what came before, either as a further Development of the majority culture or as a reaction against the majority culture. But this is not what we have here, the Whole Elven myths about the Tuatha de Danaan have always been basically a Xerox copy of celtic mythology, not inspired by, but a Xerox copy.

And yes if they did the same with Norse mythology i would object to that as well, but they haven't so far.

But as i said in my latest post, this isn't my biggest issue with the CoS, because that part of it isn't new. Rather it is how the CoS either totally ignore or just simply contradict former SR books and lore regarding TNN, the Seelie Court and the Fae. The way they treat the Tuatha de Danaan irritates me no end as well. The Tuatha de Danaan have basically gone from being ( in both SR and ED path of the Wheel lore ) the shining ones, a semi-divine progenitor species WHO occupies the "Shining Citadel" where the goal of the Wheel is to ascend to. In both SR and ED the path of the Wheel is a tradition which is at least semi-religious and which also as most religions give a certain legitimacy to the ruling system. It certaily did in ED and it certainly does in TNN in SR. In Aetherology we learned that the land of the Tuatha de Danaan is located to the North in the plane of Faerie. The Tuatha de Danaan is not mentioned at all in connection with the Courts, both seelie and unseelie. Now though, they are suddenly the ruling class of the Seelie Court and unfortunately by being pulled to the fore and put in the center, they have become ordinary. They are no longer the mysterious semi-divne progenitors, now they are a race of beings that are just as messed up and ordinary as any other metahuman race in SR, which of course Means that the Whole legitimizing effect of the path of the Wheel is gone, which essentially Means that they have done what would be the equivalent of proving that Jesus and Muhammad were just ordinary men, and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing. I'll stop ranting now but i could go on about the ramifications of several choices they have apparently suddenly made and how it impacts both SR and ED, this rant only covers the weird choice to suddenly make the Tuatha de Danaan the ruling class of the Seelie Court.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (19:11:07/10-05-16)
In both SR and ED the path of the Wheel is a tradition which is at least semi-religious and which also as most religions give a certain legitimacy to the ruling system. It certaily did in ED and it certainly does in TNN in SR.

I don't think that the path along the wheel of life in Earthdawn was associated with any temporal elven power or even a cultural power like the Elven Court. In fact I had the impression The Blood Wood is not addressing the elven spiritual beliefs at all and only discusses which of the two sects is more widespread and which named NPC belongs to either one of them.

Rather it is how the CoS either totally ignore or just simply contradict former SR books and lore regarding TNN, the Seelie Court and the Fae. The way they treat the Tuatha de Danaan irritates me no end as well. The Tuatha de Danaan have basically gone from being ( in both SR and ED path of the Wheel lore ) the shining ones, a semi-divine progenitor species WHO occupies the "Shining Citadel" where the goal of the Wheel is to ascend to. [...] They are no longer the mysterious semi-divne progenitors, now they are a race of beings that are just as messed up and ordinary as any other metahuman race in SR, which of course Means that the Whole legitimizing effect of the path of the Wheel is gone, which essentially Means that they have done what would be the equivalent of proving that Jesus and Muhammad were just ordinary men, and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.

Well, the Tuatha De Danaan are the elves of Tír na nÓg or of the Danaan families anyway. And they believe themselves to be reincarnated elves who lived in a past age. In this regard I don't think there is anything mysterious about the Tuatha De Danaan back then. They were just other elves (or other elven bodies same soul). Also, if you look at the section "Meaning in the Myth" in the "Ways & Path" chapter of Tír na nÓg the interpretation of the Danaan myth is largely spiritual or symbolic. So not even the stories about the Tuatha De Danaan are a mythic version of true events. Basically like Hinduism or Buddhism an elf is a spirit weighted down by a body as a representation of worldly attachment that has to be stripped away to ascend (back) to a purely spiritual form. In their case by following the ways and paths.

I don't know what they did exactly with the Seelie Court, but insofar the Tuatha De Danaan are fae folk that seems to me more mysterious than what the Danaan families believe in. And the true mystery remains: who is this Danu person, anyway? ;)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (07:14:50/10-06-16)
The path of the Wheel is very much Associated with temporal power both in ED and SR. It is closely Associated with "what it Means to be ( proper ) elven" and in ED this was the area of influence of the Elven Court, one which could actually be used to declare someone un-elven like in the case of Shosara. It also has the Whole shining ones, shining citadel part of it. In TNN the paths are very much the same as they were in ED, but maybe even more strict and Again they are central to "what it Means to be ( proper ) elven" and here as such falls under the purview of the Seelie Queen. In the old TNN book it is explained that she can actually use this power to change Tir politics though it does not happen often it does happen, sort of like it was with the Elven Court back in ED.

That is Temporal power borne out of being perceived as the perfect symbol of being an Elf.

The paths are also a Tool of social control in a society where social mobility is less due to people simply living very much longer, you need a system that people can channel their natural ambitions and energy into, the paths provide this and at the same time introduces the idea that advancing to the center of the Wheel takes a very long time. Of course in order to get people to follow such a set of strict rules and guidelines their Whole lives, there must be a reward for doing so, in the case of the paths this reward is provided in eventual ascension to the shining citadel, which is the home of the near mythical Tuatha de Danaan. In Tir Na Nog the Paths are this system in Tir Tairngire they had the Rites of Progression fill much the same function, which is to give the "illusion" of social mobility and even some limited real social mobility, while maintaining the Staus quo mostly, both systems are actually quite Feudal in their approach to adressing social status and the reasoning behind them.

I disagree with the notion that the elves of TNN see themselves as being Tuatha de Danaan. They call themselves the Danaan families, the top 8 amongst them call themselves the Danaan Mor, so yes they see themselves as related to the Tuatha de Danaan, as i said above, the Tuatha are the mythic forebearers of the Elves. They do indeed view themselves as reincarnated elves of ages past, because the idea of reincarnation is central to the path philosophy as it takes several lives to reach the center and ascent. Of course this Means that the path philosophy is even more about social control, it is the very incarnation of the idea of "Don't question your betters, they have spend several lives becoming this wise, so they clearly know better." and the "keep to your allotted role in life and you will be rewarded"  Funnily enough though this aspect doesn't seem to be present in the ED version of the path of the Wheel. As far as the ED path philosophy goes, don't look to Bloodwood but instead to denizens of earthdawn btw. Also in ED yu actually have two competing versions of the path of the Wheel, which is very interesting, but has been missing in SR ( until maybe run faster, which seems to imply that changes to the path philosophy has occured ).

By making the Tuatha de Danaan the "common" people of the Seelie Court you have shined the spotlight on them, so their every flaw and averageness is plain for all to see, they are no longer the mystical spiritual icons that can inspire people to follow the paths of the Wheel in order to try to emulate the shining ones, why would you emulate people that are just as flawed and ordinary as you are yourselves. In comparison what would hapen to western civilisation if people found out that Jesus was just an ordinary man and that the angels were just as flawed and ordinary as people are? This is the consequence that this ill conceived decision to suddenly make the Tuatha de Danaan the powers that be in the Seelie Court fails to adress. Unfortunately it seems like the author(s) of the book either didn't really understand how religion and myth Works in real life, or they just thought they had a good idea and failed to follow it through to it's logical conseqences. If they had decided to instead make the people in charge in the Seelie Court elves and/or the fae race called Elvar from howling shadows this wouldn't even be an issue because you would have maintained the aura of mystery and semi-divinity surrounding the Tuatha de Danaan.

Lokii's comparison to Hinduism or Buddhism is actually quite apt, but also Again an example of why this decision was the dumbest decision they could possibly have made ( ok maybe they could have made a dumber decision if they tried ). Why does Buddha inspire the Buddhists to seek Nirvana? Why does the Hindus seek to ascend through the incarnations. Because the idea hat this is somethig to strive for is maintained by the stories of the Buddha and by the Hindu myths. If people could suddenly see that Buddha was just a normal man WHO f*cked up and failed just as much as everyone else, do you really think they give two cents about his philosophy? Some would yeah, a lot wouldn't. The reason why these Things Work, both in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity...etc. is because the rules and life philosphies are infused with the absolute authority of the Divine. Making the Divine or mythical ordinary you remove the absolute part of authority and it becomes just another authority no more right or wrong than any other temporal profane authority.

Another point of irritation for me in CoS in the way they have suddenly made the Unseelie Court into just another faction of the Seelie Court which goes totally against the previous incarnations of the Unseelie Court. Yes i know that the Unseelie Court has gone through some different incarnations in SR, but they were not necessarily mutually exclusive. But the most recent one was from Aetherology where we learned that the Unseelie Court was the 2nd great Court of Faerie and that the ruler of the Unseelie Court was Lord Gwynn ( see the Welsh Gwynn Ap Nudd ). The Seelie Court and the Unseelie Court had both been shunted into their fractured Hyper metaplanes existing halfway between the plan of Faerie and Earth because of a magical cataclysm due to both Courts trying to enact a major ritual to banish their counterpart from Faerie ( something that has als been changed to a slow erosion instead, which is Again another point of irritation ). As the Seelie Court was tied to Tir Na Nog, the Unseelie Court is tied to Mag Mell ( a mythical Island off the western coast of Ireland. I remember reading in some book or other about Alchera Islands showing up off the West coast of Ireland i just don't remember which book it was ). Now suddenly the Unseelie Court is "just" a secret faction of the Seelie Court. Why? Why go totally against what you just wrote in Aetherology? Also it makes the Unseelie less mysterious and less of a threat tbh. And again it seems like the author(s) haven't even read Aetherology or perhaps just assumed that no one else had read it.

Tbh CoS seems to me to be more about promoting synergy sales with the 6th World tarot than it is about actually dealing with an underdeveloped area of the 6th World.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (15:39:53/10-06-16)
Wheel of Life in Earthdawn:

It is of course possible that the philosophy of the wheel of life originated from the Elven Court but if so it seems to exist largely independent from it by the time of Earthdawn. And in theory I agree it certainly would fit into the domain the Court claims, but I'm pretty sure the whole segment on elven spirituality in Denizens is the same as The Blood Wood: there is no mention of a specific role the Elven Court plays. If the court took a strong stance regarding these philosophical teachings you would expect that the elves of Blood Wood belong to the sect of strict adherents, but they are majority free followers. And you would expect that at least they all belong to the same sect, but that's also not true. The Blood Wood, p.19:

Quote
Though blood elves are free to follow the Paths on the Wheel of Life in any fashion they choose, the vast majority of them are Dae'mistishsa, or free Followers, including Queen Alachia. (Before Alachia, only Queen Failla did not follow Sa'mistisha.) [...] That being said, both the Talshara and the Escalanas ranelles largely subscribe to Sa'mistisha.

----

Tuatha de Danaan:

See section "Important Names" from Tír na nÓg:

Quote
However, many non-elven natives still refer to themselves as Irish rather than tuatha ("the people"), the official term describing citizens of Tír na nÓg. Elves of the Tír always refer to themselves as tuatha. Scions of the ruling Danaan Families refer to themselves as Tuatha de Danaan. [...] Because the Tír elves believe they have a unique, almost sacred role in the nation, they reserve the name Tuatha de Danaan for themselves. They refer to all non-elves as tuatha.

By the way Danu not a problem according to the bit inbetween:

Quote
Years of misinformation to the contrary, this term does not mean "people of the goddess Danu." It means "the people of craftsmanship," or "the artistic people."

Later p.67:

Quote
In the most recent Awakening, the elves have returned to claim Tír na nÓg just as their previous incarnations did in bygone ages.

And as I said the interpretation of the text "The Battle of Moytura" (Mag Tuired) does not point to a mysterious prehistory. For example the four cities are mental states. Or the burning of the ships that the Tuatha arrived on in Tír na nÓg is a metapher that elves cannot ascend before fulfilling a purpose in the Sixth World and so on.

----

Just a side note: there is of course a widespread religious veneration of Buddha but Buddhism as a spiritual path to salvation is not actually predicated on a "belief" in Buddha. Rather the practitioner should examine the teachings of Buddha critically and follow them once convinced that they represent revealed truth about the nature of reality.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (02:32:53/10-07-16)
Just a side note: there is of course a widespread religious veneration of Buddha but Buddhism as a spiritual path to salvation is not actually predicated on a "belief" in Buddha. Rather the practitioner should examine the teachings of Buddha critically and follow them once convinced that they represent revealed truth about the nature of reality.

The key Words here are "once convinced". Because once you are convinced of the absolute truth of Buddhas teachings, then you can start to use them to Progress towards Nirvana. It doesn't matter if it is the Buddha himself or his teachings you venerate, what matters is that all religious authority is by it's very nature absolute. You coud say exactly the same kind of thing about any religion. A christian is only a christian when he/she has examined the teachings of Jesus and have been convinced by them. After that point though they are believers in the absolute truth of Jesus' divinity and that he died for their salvation and so on. The Whole adhering to the teachings of Budda due to their absolute authority on how to achieve Nirvana is what makes Buddhism a religion, not if they actually whorship him or not.

Scholars of religion operate with two definitions of religion, a narrow definition where there must be a belief in supernatural beings present, and those beings must be a central core of the belief system. The problem with this definition and the reason why it isn't used very widely anymore is that for example Buddhism doesn't qualify as a religion under this definition. The wide definition of religion which is the one most commonly used now instead focusses on a belief system, be it a belief in a life philosophy, spiritual teachings, an ideology....etc. which includes rules and guidelines that must be followed because they are the absolute authority on how to achieve the desired end result. Under this definition Buddhism very much qualifies, so does communism as well btw and so does the Path of the Wheel eventhough the myths are supposed to be understood symbolically or spiritually or whatever.

Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:52:24/10-07-16)
Despite immense temptation, I am wisely going to not post a response because getting into a religious debate is like getting into a political debate - a fast route to a Admin Smite.  I further recommend that the topic in regards to religion be dropped.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Sengir on (07:10:01/10-10-16)
and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.
I was wondering about that, how do players actually get there? Some kind of mystic gate?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (08:37:21/10-10-16)
and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.
I was wondering about that, how do players actually get there? Some kind of mystic gate?

That or some of the established paths or artifacts or being guided there, i'm sure i'm forgetting some, there's many ways to get there now.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: BlackMyron on (02:05:55/10-17-16)
There's apparently an Event that happens in 2078 that produces a 'wandering portal' that allows mortals to circumvent the normal process of getting to the Seelie Court.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (15:02:37/12-05-16)
A little threadmancy to point to Shadowrun: Anarchy. There are a few adventures which will carry some weight with this group, I'd wager. Check and Seelie it for yourself.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (16:50:03/12-05-16)
A little threadmancy to point to Shadowrun: Anarchy. There are a few adventures which will carry some weight with this group, I'd wager. Check and Seelie it for yourself.

Oh, you tease, now I have to get someone to have a look for me. But I can already see in the table of contents (http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Quelle,_en:_Shadowrun:_Anarchy/Inhaltsverzeichnis), it's "Un-Seeled Fate", isn't it?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (07:05:31/12-06-16)
Oh, you tease, now I have to get someone to have a look for me. But I can already see in the table of contents (http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Quelle,_en:_Shadowrun:_Anarchy/Inhaltsverzeichnis), it's "Un-Seeled Fate", isn't it?

I just read it and... indeed, tons of great stuff in there. Including, at long last...

[spoiler]some clues about Aina's fate![/spoiler]

It also makes a great introductory adventure to bring players into the world of Court of Shadows.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (11:36:07/12-06-16)
Whatever are you talking about? I didn't see her name anywhere...
 ;)
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (15:21:18/12-06-16)
Whatever are you talking about? I didn't see her name anywhere...
 ;)

Joke aside, I'm now wondering if

[spoiler]"Gwyn" refers to Harlequin, or Gwynplayne, or someone else altogether...[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (15:30:31/12-06-16)
I am going to have to let that one sit a spell. Although that name has appeared in SR before. An eBook if I recall...
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (15:51:54/12-06-16)
I am going to have to let that one sit a spell. Although that name has appeared in SR before. An eBook if I recall...

[spoiler]Lord Gwyn, the ruler of the Unseelie Court mentioned in Aetherology? Mmm, curiouser and curiouser... :)[/spoiler]

edit: by the way, I wonder if the Ashen Mirror could in fact be

[spoiler]Lyllaria's Mirror, an artefact described in Earthdawn. Lyllaria's Mirror had similar powers, was stolen from Wyrm Wood, and was once used to hold an Horror prisoner -- even if the Horror itself is gone (else the mirror wouldn't work), its lingering influence might explain why the runners will feel sick after staring into it.[/spoiler]

Did I mention how much I love this game?  ;D
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (17:43:24/12-06-16)
I am going to have to let that one sit a spell. Although that name has appeared in SR before. An eBook if I recall...

[spoiler]Lord Gwyn, the ruler of the Unseelie Court mentioned in Aetherology? Mmm, curiouser and curiouser... :)[/spoiler]


Harlequin, what did you do?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Rosa on (03:11:06/12-07-16)
 
Whatever are you talking about? I didn't see her name anywhere...
 ;)

Joke aside, I'm now wondering if

[spoiler]"Gwyn" refers to Harlequin, or Gwynplayne, or someone else altogether...[/spoiler]

I am going to have to let that one sit a spell. Although that name has appeared in SR before. An eBook if I recall...

[spoiler]Lord Gwyn, the ruler of the Unseelie Court mentioned in Aetherology? Mmm, curiouser and curiouser... :)[/spoiler]

edit: by the way, I wonder if the Ashen Mirror could in fact be

[spoiler]Lyllaria's Mirror, an artefact described in Earthdawn. Lyllaria's Mirror had similar powers, was stolen from Wyrm Wood, and was once used to hold an Horror prisoner -- even if the Horror itself is gone (else the mirror wouldn't work), its lingering influence might explain why the runners will feel sick after staring into it.[/spoiler]

Did I mention how much I love this game?  ;D



Lord Gwyn ruler of the unseelie ( as per Aetherology ) is quite likely based on Gwyn ap Nudd, Welsh psychopomp, ruler of Annwn ( the otherworld ), leader of the wild hunt ( one of them at least ) and ruler of the Tylwyth Teg ( Fair folk ), atleast that would be my guess. Also note the similarity of the Welsh Nudd to the Irish Nuada ( a name that should resonate somewhat in regards to the Seelie ). However i don't see that person having anything to Do with Harlequin, though i dont have the book myself, so i can't be sure of course.

Interesting idea about the mirror btw. I hope they release this adventure as a stand alone pdf at some point as i'm not much for having to buy the Whole rulebook i'm never  going to use just for the adventure.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (05:51:01/12-07-16)
However i don't see that person having anything to Do with Harlequin, though i dont have the book myself, so i can't be sure of course.

Yeah I had forgotten about Aetherology when I wrote that first post, so when I read about someone named Gwyn looking for

[spoiler]a mysterious, unnamed, black-skinned, white-haired elf :p[/spoiler]

I assumed Gwyn was short for Gwynplayne and therefore could refer to Harlequin as well since people might not know the difference between them.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (18:37:55/12-07-16)
Okay, I had a look.

So, I noticed they have an impressive oak tree in a important-sounding ("Great") hall ...

Also this must be the first time Alachia is mentioned by name since Second Edition (unless she is also mentioned in Court of Shadows). At first I thought she is this Lady Thisbe, the Queen in Exile, but apparently yet another queen. Adding to that Aina as the Ebon Queen—who made her a queen anyway?

Lyllaria's Mirror would be an interesting connection. (BTW: Lyllaria was also an Elven Queen, though not of Wyrm Wood.) It's a good fit. Using the mirror actually causes strain. "Ashen" doesn't really fit the physical description of the mirror or its frame, but that could have changed. Let's assume it is the same mirror for a moment: In Earthdawn without weaving threads to it the viewing range was rather limited. So would that imply the Ebon Queen is imprisoned nearby? Of course it's not defined how the ranks of magical items translate to Shadowrun and who knows what "near" really means on a metaplane.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (09:21:52/03-11-17)
This is relevant to the interests of this thread. In particular, the Aligning the Court and the people sections...

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/207193/Shadowrun-Book-of-the-Lost-A-Shadowrun-Campaign-Book?src=newest_recent
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: cotilla on (09:34:04/03-11-17)
How come this is the first time I hear about this? Why hasn't www.shadowruntabletop.com/blog/ been updated in over 3 months?
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Marzhin on (11:19:00/03-15-17)
This is relevant to the interests of this thread. In particular, the Aligning the Court and the people sections...

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/207193/Shadowrun-Book-of-the-Lost-A-Shadowrun-Campaign-Book?src=newest_recent

Indeed! Some info on Alachia, and some hints about Lord Gwyn's reasons to seek the Ebon Queen and what he wants to do with her.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: lokii on (18:57:09/05-10-17)
A quick side note to add to the earlier discussion. I noticed this exchange in the Voices From The Past short story in Harlequin's Back (1994) (here is a copy (http://shadowrun.fr/article/voices-from-the-past)):

Quote
The figure stared at Harlequin. "I expected more from the last Knight of the Crying Spire."

Harlequin stared back at the figure. "The Northern Islands are gone. Forgotten dust of a forgotten world."

Probably the same "Northern Islands" introduced in the Tir na nOg sourcebook (1993). Also since Crying Spire is thought to be connected to Sereatha I wonder if this implies that the Northern Islands have at one point been located in the Western Kingdoms or maybe been settled by refugees from there.
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: Opti on (17:30:15/05-11-17)
I am very surprised more people aren't talking about Book of the Lost yet... Especially the "Aligning the Court" section... well, that and the characters...
Title: Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
Post by: EiraHaexa on (18:28:19/05-11-17)
I am very surprised more people aren't talking about Book of the Lost yet... Especially the "Aligning the Court" section... well, that and the characters...

Once I can afford it I'll be all over it. Some of us be po' folk.