Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Kuirem on <06-29-16/0336:21>
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I have recently picked up Shadowrun 5 and I am deep into chargen. Lately I have particularly looked at Cyberlimb and how they fit on runners and I could use an outside opinion.
Cyberlimbs
The first thing I have noticed about Cyberlimbs is that they are really not worth it for fighting oriented character. I know, the iconic Street Samurai is always represented with his double Cyberarms, but in practice it is really a waste of resources. For slighly cheaper than your two Cyberarms customized to Agility 6 (the bare minimum imo) you can get Muscle Replacement (Rating 2) which will increase your limits and also count for the rest of your body.
So when Cyberlimbs are useful? Two situations : For the Capacity, it is almost always cheaper in Essence to get a Cyberlimbs and fit it with Toys than to put them in the Flesh directly. The second is to give some fighting power to non-combat character (Decker, Face, Infiltration, Driver...).
Let's look further at the latter with an example :
Sparkle, everyone's favorite elf face, just got out of a meet with Johnson, as he gets back to his team he is attacked by a feral dog. Thanksfully he has a shiny new Colt Government 2066 ready in his holster and has time for a couple of shots before the dog gets in melee. Sparkle hasn't hit the gym much lately and will have to fight with a measly 2 STR and AGI, he has a good training in Pistols (6) so he will throw 8 dice against the dog REA + INT so 8 dice too. Basically Sparkle will flip a coin to see if he hits, not the best situation. He could use a Semi-Automatic Burst to give a -2 Defense Pool but due to his low Strength he will immediatly get a -1 Dice himself and it will be even worst with the next shot.
Now if we look at this from chargen getting from 2 AGI to 4 would cost 35 Karma, on the other hand getting a Synthetic Full Arm (he is a face so he might not want an obvious one) with 7 Agility and 4 Strength (just enough for an extra RC) cost 45 000¥ or 23 Karma. So it is a really viable solution if you can afford to spare an Essence point. The downside is that if he wants to use 2 handed weapons (such as an assault rifle) he would have to get the average between his two arms which will still gives a +3 AGI and +1 STR compared to his base stats.
So, from your experience have you ever seen a combat character using Cyberlimbs efficiently (i.e. while Muscle Replacement wouldn't have been better)?
When and why did you install a Cyberlimb on your character?
Have you ever installed a Cybertorso/Cyberskull for anything other than fluff?
Cyber Implant Weapons
Now for Cyber Implant Weapons, first I noticed that they can be installed directly into the Flesh (yuck). For a Holdout or a Light Pistol I can see it (still yuck), maybe even a Heavy Pistols in a strong Ork/Troll arm, but SMG and Shotgun in the Flesh? I can assure you that after a couple of use you will need a Cyberarms anyway chummer.
My first question is about concealment, the core rulebook mention p.458 : For extra concealment, cyberguns are built from mostly non-metallic compounds, and any metallic parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arm’s structure. But he does not give any value, how would you deal with that? A bonus equivalent to a Concealed Holster maybe? What if you have Synthetic Cyberlimbs? An Obvious Cyberlimbs will most likely be searched for Cyberguns but a Synthetic not so much. Guess it's all up to the GM but how would you do it yourself? I also doubt that a Shotgun in the Flesh has much Concealment bonus.
Second question is how would you rule the use of a Implanted Shotgun/SMG? Normally these weapon should use both arms to fire, which limit their interest to single Cyberarm character but if integrated into a Cyberarm I think you might be able to fire with only one. At least for the SMG, but for the Shotgun, do you think someone would be able to fire an integrated Shotgun without using the other arm? It would give an extra interest to invest into an integrated one then since Shotgun are pretty versatile weapons and combined with the fact that it is hidden into the arm it becomes a really powerful choice since it removes a big penalty from Shotgun : Being big and obvious.
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Short and sweet; you've summed up the issues quite nicely, as cyberlimbs are rarely worth the price of admission over other augmentation options except in the case of providing capacity for other equipment.
Chrome Flesh (especially the German edition) changes this; between Redliner (+1 Agility and Strength and a net -1 condition monitor box per two limbs) and Cyber Singularity Seeker (+1 Willpower for every two cyberlimbs) coupled with the optional rule that allows cyberlimbs to affect inherent limits, cyberlimbs become an extremely viable alternative as they allow you to get to +4 (or even +5 depending on your reading) augmented attribute values for Strength and Agility from character generation.
Alternatively, by going for all cyberlimbs using the base rules you can rack up an ungodly amount of armor and condition monitor boxes, so going all chrome is a good way to build a tank.
All in all, though, I personally feel that 5th Edition lost the thread, so to speak, where cyber is concerned; I get what the writers intended with the whole "everything has a price" theme, but I think they took it too far where cyberlimbs in particular are concerned. As you say, why would you get limbs that don't affect limits when you can just buy enhanced muscles instead for the same cost and have them affect all actions without any ambiguity.
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I'm still not sure where the "Iconic Samurai has two cyberlimbs" comes from. In my personal experience, Samurai were *always* about Muscle Replacement (and later Augmentation), while a Cyberlimb was rarely seen. Those who did get them were noncombat types, like a Decker, who wanted one spun up to Agility 6 'on the cheap'.
The 'Chrome Tanks' are a different thing, and I hope one day to stamp out 'Cyber Diabetes' once and for all. :)
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The fiction has plenty of cyberlimbs, Wakshani. Gangland type razorboys and girls sport them frequently, but runners seem to go the more expensive route of full-body enhancements.
At least in my experience, the cyberlimb is iconic, and even if it wasn't it should still be a viable alternative which, sad to say, it just isn't currently. It's far too expensive for what it does except, as you note, in the case of a Decker with a single arm to boost his shooting ability. And that, quite frankly, is just broken... My opinion only, of course.
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ImO a Cyberhand or Arm (or even 2) is Iconic for Cyberpunk RPGs (including Shadowrun ;) )
Do I have to remind you of the famous Johnny Silverhand ?
Thanks to the horrendous high Prices of Cyberware a Cyberarm, which retains the Pricetag from 4th ed
is now an even more affordable alternative
especially if you can also use the Cyberarm for other Gimmicks like Cyberarmor, hidden Weapons or Gimmicks (like internal Comlink)
etc. you can boost STR & AGI up to 9 (with Redliner up to 11) which is ImO really High & Mighty
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Cyberlimbs are in kind of a funny space. They're either mechanically inefficient flavor picks for most characters, or silly cheesy and cause much GM eye rolling. I have seen Melee builds with Cyberlegs for more movement and kicking damage, and the occasional Decker with a High Agility Cyber Arm. Other than that you're either all in and chrome tanked, or its a huge investment for character flavor.
My favorite is the Partial Cyberskull. I wanted one for a Decker build to put a cyberdeck in, but Cyberdeck is (4), Partial Cyberskull is (4) so I was paying for a Pocket, to put in a Pocket, to put in a Cyberdeck. It made me sad, mind you I still did it because it matched the picture I was using. DataJacks, Commlinks and Antenna are also better off because being bought separate because of Availability/cost/quality/essence reasons.
Really about the only thing I could figure out to do with such a thing is shove an Armor Plate in there...
Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability. Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs. Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.
If you're just using the Cyberlimb as a really fancy bag it shouldn't really be all that expensive just for a really cool bag.
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...I often think of how useful a third cyberarm would be in RL. The ability to open doors or hold a brolly, with both of your other hands full would be so bloody helpful. I could cheer and applaud when my home team scores a goal with my beer still in hand. It would be really helpful when making repairs and improvements around the home as well as housecleaning and even cooking. While driving I could shift gears or drink my coffee and keep my two other hands on the steering wheel...
...oh the possibilities.
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Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness. :)
But, yeah, I'd have loved to pretty much rebuild the execution of cyberlimbs from the ground up, but that wasn't happening for Sr5, and doing it later's a huge jerkmove, so, you know ... not today.
They're so iconic that they need to be more common and less unbalancing. Hopefully, nothing in Chrome Flesh broke them badly, but I confess that I haven't been watching many discussions on that side of things. People didn't run out and start saying that Optimized Limbs were the most broken thing ever, so that's a positive. :) But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing.
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but that wasn't happening for Sr5, and doing it later's a huge jerkmove
I'd beg to differ, should it be a mechanical and thematic improvement. They're are more than a few supplements that redid things.
I'd have loved to pretty much rebuild the execution of cyberlimbs from the ground up,
I haven't bought any fifth edition material for ... quite some time, but I'd support a release containing this with dollars should it prove to be a change I agree with.
Then again, that would likely have to be part of something like 'fifth edition revised'. Or sixth edition.
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>>>> Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability. Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.
But that is exactly how Cyberlimbs are now in SR5
compared to other F****************** expensive 'ware they're quite cheap and availiable.
Essence cost is quite balanced ImO
>>>> Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.
that's exactly the Crunch right now
+1AGI +1 STR and +1 Cyberarmor together is nearly as Much as the base Arm itself (13.000 Vs. 15.000)
>>>> Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.
??? what are you writing about ?
@Wakshaani
>>>> Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness.
I don't know about them but even if they're are deep, deep Madness
SR5'ware cost still is Madness too
(that is like comparing Kim Jong Un to Trump and saying that Kim Jong Un is the worser Nightmare, which is surely true, but doesn't stop Trump from being a Nightmare too ;) )
>>> But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing
I use them a lot
and I come from the "Side" that likes to optimize their Chars but also consider ROLEplay to be important too !
JahtaHow
Medicineman
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I'm still not sure where the "Iconic Samurai has two cyberlimbs" comes from. In my personal experience, Samurai were *always* about Muscle Replacement (and later Augmentation), while a Cyberlimb was rarely seen. Those who did get them were noncombat types, like a Decker, who wanted one spun up to Agility 6 'on the cheap'.
Argent might want to have a word with you.
Cyberlimbs are fine if you use the optional German rule to calculate limits with them if you have 4 Cyberlimbs or stick to an Arm of awesome.
In all other cases they usually suck, except if you make full use of their capacity.
Usually, just sticking used muscletoner and augmentation into your body is better.
Redliner is imho a trap option the loss in condition monitors is to extreme.
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I've already got a few rough house-rules for cyberlimbs in place for if/when I run a Shadowrun game; cost revamping, adjustment of how they function, etc.
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>>>> Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability. Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.
But that is exactly how Cyberlimbs are now in SR5
compared to other F****************** expensive 'ware they're quite cheap and availiable.
Essence cost is quite balanced ImO
>>>> Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.
that's exactly the Crunch right now
+1AGI +1 STR and +1 Cyberarmor together is nearly as Much as the base Arm itself (13.000 Vs. 15.000)
>>>> Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.
??? what are you writing about ?
@Wakshaani
>>>> Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness.
I don't know about them but even if they're are deep, deep Madness
SR5'ware cost still is Madness too
(that is like comparing Kim Jong Un to Trump and saying that Kim Jong Un is the worser Nightmare, which is surely true, but doesn't stop Trump from being a Nightmare too ;) )
>>> But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing
I use them a lot
and I come from the "Side" that likes to optimize their Chars but also consider ROLEplay to be important too !
JahtaHow
Medicineman
Cyberlimbs are actually quite expensive for the base limb that is, mechanically, a very fancy gear holder. aka a bag. I would prefer the base limbs to be dirt cheap. Few thousand Nuyen, minimal essence. Then make the + Stats, + Armor, + Move, and + Damage ect options cost additional Essence and Nuyen.
Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats... *shrug*
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Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats... *shrug*
I think the cost of Customization should be scaled on the character base attributes. It should be cheaper to build a Cyberware with 5 STR for someone that has 5 STR than for someone with a weak 1 STR. Maybe half the price until you reach your own stats? Would still be expensive but feel a bit less like a Nuyen waste just to reach your base stats.
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Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats... *shrug*
I think the cost of Customization should be scaled on the character base attributes. It should be cheaper to build a Cyberware with 5 STR for someone that has 5 STR than for someone with a weak 1 STR. Maybe half the price until you reach your own stats? Would still be expensive but feel a bit less like a Nuyen waste just to reach your base stats.
Endless number of ways to do it. Even just an arbitrary Cyberlimbs have your same stats unless you spend moneys, but that doesn't quite fit with how Shadowrun has historically handled Cyberlimbs.
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Lets use an example, say we have a cyberarm that can dead-lift 100 lbs. Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?
If the system used more complex rules for separating operating costs versus the cost of the device, then I could see an argument for it costing more for the weak person to better adjust to the over-powered arm. But as the rules stand, the actual arm shouldn't have different prices for different bodies.
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Well, off the top of my head, a stronger person doesn't need extra reinforcement and other things added to make sure they can use it adequately, while the weaker person might require it. Not saying it is accurate or not, just that it is one explanation.
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Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?
(Hypothetically) Let's add the situation of an elf and troll. I'd say there are a range of unenhanced, uncustomised arms available, and though cost is no different, the two metatypes do not purchase the same model of arm by default.
A strong person and a weak person would be in a similar, though less pronounced, situation.
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Well, off the top of my head, a stronger person doesn't need extra reinforcement and other things added to make sure they can use it adequately, while the weaker person might require it. Not saying it is accurate or not, just that it is one explanation.
The suggestion that a weaker person would need extra reinforcement to be able to use an implant arm sort of suggests that if you aren't careful that sucker could rip itself off or something like that... It would also potentially require extra implantation (cost more essence) which is also not supported by the rules. Like I mentioned before, if there were more in depth rules for post-implant rehab or something similar, I would totally support the idea that it takes longer to get used to a new cyberlimb that has different attributes from your natural attribute. And if I were running a game where a player opted to get a new arm installed, I might actually impose a "learning curve" to using an arm that is unbalanced compared to the norm.
I would also like to point out that in 4th edition (if I'm recalling correctly) they actually had it set up such that if you tried to use Cyberlimb Strength/Agility enhancements that were too strong (higher than 2) you had to have a Cybertorso. Now, that rule was only for the Enhancements, the ones that take up capacity, but it was an interesting concept.
Why would it be less expensive for a strong person to buy this arm than a weak person?
(Hypothetically) Let's add the situation of an elf and troll. I'd say there are a range of unenhanced, uncustomised arms available, and though cost is no different, the two metatypes do not purchase the same model of arm by default.
A strong person and a weak person would be in a similar, though less pronounced, situation.
My concept of the cost variation for customizing the cyberlimbs is that it needs better materials, more servos and so forth to improve the overall strength/agility of the limb. Now, I work off of the assumption that these customized limbs have built in limits and are customized to the frame of the recipient, which is why they are limited to the natural limit for the character's metatype. This builds in by default the limit that the limb can't do something more than the character's body is capable of supporting. An arm attached to an elf is capable of attaining an AGI of 7, ergo the body can have the arm flinging around at "Agility 7 speed" without causing undue harm. In these cases, the customization of the cyberlimb has sort of just shortcut-ted the attribute raising process, but for that limb only.
Remember, an unenhanced, uncustomized arm has a STR 3, AGI 3. So by default those two metatypes in Novocrane's hypothetical are getting a very different "deal" if they are looking to go with just a basic arm. Some say that the cost of the customization should be based on the metatype, so Trolls only have to pay for customization levels from some other value for Trolls to start at. Personally, this doesn't seem to follow the logic for me, because you're still paying for a stronger arm, right? Lets use a slightly different hypothetical situation:
Now, say we have two candidates looking to buy cyberlimbs that match their actual attributes. We have a Human with above average attributes, Agility 5, Strength 5. And we have a Troll that is at the top of his game in... table tennis, also Agility 5 Strength 5. Now, these two candidates by all accounts are looking at purchasing the same arm, the rules don't have any alterations to purchasing gear based on metatype, so the troll doesn't have to pay extra for his arm just because he is a big not so burly troll. Again, the game tries to simplify the rules for Metatype, so there are no further changes to these limbs based on that aspect. Both of our implant-ees pay the same amount because they are getting the same product. Seems fair.
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I would also like to point out that in 4th edition (if I'm recalling correctly) they actually had it set up such that if you tried to use Cyberlimb Strength/Agility enhancements that were too strong (higher than 2) you had to have a Cybertorso. Now, that rule was only for the Enhancements, the ones that take up capacity, but it was an interesting concept.
That was only for Standard, not Customized limbs. From SR4A page 343:
"On standard cyberlimbs, a cybertorso is required to have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3."
Keep in mind that in 4th Edition, enhancements went as high as Rating 7 whereas in SR5 they only go to Rating 3. Customized limbs could go up to "the character's natural attribute maximum)", with each attribute point raised above 3 increasing the availability by 1 and cost by 1,500¥, quite a lot less expensive than the 5,000¥ per rating of SR5. A human has a limit in both editions of 9; in 4th this was due to the maximum augmented attribute value being 6 * 1.5 as per page 68 (which could be achieved with a standard limb with 6 rating points worth of enhancements), in 5th this is due to the max customized attribute of a limb being 6 (i.e. racial max) and the max rating of enhancements being 3.
So really, the two editions changed the rules a little bit, but for limbs the end result is mostly the same for humans; metahumans, trolls in particular, are the exception, where a troll could have a strength 15 cyberlimb in SR4 but "only" a strength 13 cyberlimb in SR5. And, as pointed out above, the customized limbs got a lot more expensive in SR5. A Troll arm with STR 10 would cost 15,000¥ base + either 1500*7 for max versatility (i.e no capacity use) or 250*7 if you didn't care about capacity and didn't want to be able to further enhance it, giving a range of 16.750¥ to 25,500¥; that same limb in SR5 would cost the same base but an additional 5000*7 because enhancements went from 250¥ per Strength rating to 6,500¥, for a minimum price of 50,000¥. In other words, forget about using cyberlimbs if you're a troll focused on strength...
All of that being said, I personally like the idea of a customized cyberlimb being limited by your natural attributes. Thus, a Strength 1 Agility 1 character can only have a Strength 4 Agility 4 arm; this could be circumvented with a cyber torso as per the standard limb rules from SR4 so a STR/AGI 1 character could have a cyber torso with STR/AGI 6 and thus mount arms with STR/AGI 6 + 3 from enhancements for a total of 9. But, this gets overly complicated quickly and brings in the cost issue; in order for this to be viable the cost of limbs and torsos would have to go down, in my opinion, otherwise you're just making a system where things like muscle replacements are even more common, not less.
My biggest pet peeve about cyberlimbs is that a troll gets the same standard arm that a human does, starting out at STR/AGI 3. That's bogus, but again, would require a bottom-up rework of the limb system to make sense. The easiest house rule we've come up with is to allow limbs to affect natural limits regardless of how many limbs you've got, by averaging out the attributes used to calculate the limit. Thus, the character has one limit for using just the limb (limb attributes only), one limit for using the limb in concert with other limbs (averaged across two arms for the most part), and one limit for when the whole body is used (averaged attributes across four limbs plus torso). We've also considered giving the torso more capacity to account for the potential need for enhancements, but haven't settled on a final number (15 and 20 were topics of discussion).
TL;DR
Cyberlimbs are too expensive for what they do in SR5; dramatically lowered cost might help offset the downsides (such as no inherent limit modification) but that could still leave a lot to be desired.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with using Cyberlimb attributes for the purposes of calculating Limits, the text of the book only says "When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber)"
That can totally be read as "the attribute for that test," but it can also be thought of as any attribute involved. Your Physical limit uses Strength, which is an attribute and the limb has a different one. It takes a little extra work, but it isn't hard to calculate out the various possibilities (Just the limb, average of two limbs, whole body, careful coordination) but as a group you need to make sure you agree on how many "limbs" a human has. I usually go for 5, one each for 2 arms, 2 legs, and the base body of the recipient. Note also, that I go by the idea that a cybertorso, which is just a shell doesn't have attributes, so no matter what you do you are contending with the base flesh of the augmented person.
As I noted in my previous post comparing a high strength human with a "low" strength troll, it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for a troll to have to pay more for the higher strength. I would be open to ideas, but all of the suggestions that Trolls or Orks or whatever should just get free base Strength seems a little odd. They are getting a Stronger machine, why shouldn't it cost more to make?
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As I noted in my previous post comparing a high strength human with a "low" strength troll, it doesn't really seem that unreasonable for a troll to have to pay more for the higher strength. I would be open to ideas, but all of the suggestions that Trolls or Orks or whatever should just get free base Strength seems a little odd. They are getting a Stronger machine, why shouldn't it cost more to make?
From a verisimilitude standpoint I think we all can see that, but from a balance standpoint it means that the value of a cyberlimb varies by Metatype. May or may not be desirable.
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The current way of ruling is pretty much fine, in my opinion.
Your Metatype defines the outer shape of your Arm, not the Power of the Motors put inside.
If anything, one could argue about linking the capacity of the Arm to the metatype.
The German Rigger 5 made an interesting change, linking the capacity of Drone Cyberarms to the Body of the Drone.
This could also work for normal Cyberarms, giving "beefier" Characters more to toy with.
Requiring Cybertorsos for stronger Limbs is a horrible Idea from the point of viability.
Cyberarm Charakters are most often a strictly worse option than the alternatives, slightly less so with german rules.
Requiring the very Essence intensive Cybertorso for better stats, pushes them deep into the "useless" area, barring the "Cyberarm-of-Awesome" Riggers.
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Shadowrun is a game first, a "simulation" se- well, ok, if you're asking me, last.
As it stands cyberarms do not work in-game the way they are meant to work in-fluff. That means either the fluff has to change (and cyberarms become the sort of things only weaklings and the desperate use rather then a staple of cyber samurais), or the mechanics have to change (cyberarms are altered so that high-stat characters have reasons to use them, and indeed, are not punished for doing so). Either way, what you have right now simply does not work - it is a sad case of aiming for some sort of real world "realism" and not only failing to achieve it, but failing to likewise achieve in-setting realism, leaving you with mechanics that just kinda suck.
...As is so often the case with "simulationist" design.
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Hey ProfessorCirno since you are 'upping' my post I thought I might as well give a new point of view. Since the time I made this post I created a plethora of character and notably lately through Karmagen. And I realized that the problem with Cyberlimbs is not so much from the limbs themselves (except for Torso and Skulls that are crap) but from Priority/Sum to Ten.
Those two gen methods really promote min/maxing. There is simply no point going for 3 AGI/ 2 STR + Cyberarmswhen you can go for 6/5 + Muscle Replacement. But with Karmagen? 6 AGI/5 STR is much more expensive than 3/2, it is a difference of 135 Karma, 135 Karma is 270k Nuyen, more than enough to buy fully boosted Cyberarms (even Alphaware to save on Essence) and freeing tons of Karma to reinvest into Skills or other Attributes. What is worst, an Ork charging at you from the top of his 8 AGI/9 STR or an Ork charging at you from the top of his 9 AGI/11 STR while giving a lecture on nuclear physics?
When you start playing high STR metatype it become even more interesting, an Ork/Dwarf has to pay 150 Karma to go to STR 8, add to that the high AGI and BOD needed to play a melee street sam and the karma cost quickly go through the roof. With Cyberlimbs? Not so much.
So Cyberarms build are much more viable in Karmagen than in others and not limited to the 'Decker who can shot' or the 'super cheesy 50 armor Sam'. This is not the only thing that is made viable, the infamous Aspected Magician is much better in Karmagen since he doesn't have to pay ~50 karma more than the magician just to learn Spells.
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One of the biggest issues, Kuirem, is that while you may be getting some Karma efficiency when using Point Buy your cyberlimbs are still not affecting inherent limits, which means that if your natural attributes are poor, strength in particular, using those arms for anything that uses Physical Limit is going to be challenging. Sure, you can get around that by using a Katana for a melee weapon so you're using the Accuracy of the weapon instead, but there are plenty of skills that use the whole body and/or rely on limits.
So while you may have saved some Karma, you're restricted in ways that make very little sense and/or that are mechanically difficult to implement.
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Yep that's still a problem. Thanksfully RAW says this :
Often, rather than using their inherent limits, runners will be limited by the piece of gear they are using.
Some will say that it is all a matter of interpretation but I don't see why this sentence from the Core Rulebook (page 47) would not allow you to use Cyberlimbs attributes for your test, especially since it makes sense.
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Hmm, interesting. I've never seen or heard anyone argue that Cyberlimbs is gear. That still leaves the issue of unifying gear and physical limits when using, say, two cyberarms and the rest of your natural body.
Honestly, we just houseruled this at my table to average stats for physical limit. But that's obviously not RAW.
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Well Cyberware is listed in the STREET GEAR chapter in the core rulebook. Can't make it clearer that it is gear to me.
Once again averaging is RAW, page 455 :
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task
So if you consider that Cyberlimbs = Gear and that they have their own limit taking the average value of all limbs should also take the average limits. Is that stretching the wording? Probably but it is for the sake of balance AND logic ;D
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Absolutely. It's certainly an interesting and most importantly new argument, at least as far as I know.
Kudos!
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My opinion is that you should determine the Physical Limit for the action the same way you determine the appopriate Attribute for determining the die pool. You take the Strength based on the action (Single Limb, average of several, or lowest of all involved) and use that to determine the Physical Limit. This doesn't violate the RAW since the book just says "When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." It doesn't say use the attribute for that limb when determining the die pool.
I've never been very adamant about this method, because people always seem concerned about this causing "extra math" to be involved. But if you're making a character with cyberlimbs that have different attributes from your body, you already have some extra figuring out to do, and it isn't that hard to write out the different possibilities for your Physical Limit based on this assumption. Unless you're going completely wacky with all four limbs having different strengths, it should be pretty straightforward. Your group just needs to agree on how many "limbs" there are in a test that involves the whole body.
Personally, I go with 5 (2 arms, 2 legs, and torso). And to be clear since the Cybertorso is a shell, I've always ruled that it doesn't have its own attributes, you always use your meat body when determining tests involving your torso.
Say I have a weakling elf decker (Bod 1, Agi 2, Rea 2, Str 1, Physical Limit 2) that decides to get an awesome arm for doing sharpshooting (Str 5, Agi 7). For using the pistol one handed, he would use just the Agility and Strength of the arm to determine effects. Which would be Agility 7 and a Strength of 5 for determining Recoil (only one extra point of recoil, so no big deal really). When using just that arm to punch he would still use that Agility 7, but because of the boost to stats his Physical Limit is also upped to 4. If he were to try and pick up a rifle or other two-handed weapon, we use his averaged stats between the two arms (Str 3, Agi 5[9/2, rounded up]). That extra recoil is gone, because his other arm is so weak, and if we needed a Physical Limit it would be 3. For something full body but not carefully coordinated, he has a Str 2, Agi 3, Phys Limit 3. And carefully coordinated would of course use his fully natural stats (since they're all lower than the arm).
And I just record it on my sheet as that series of numbers: Natural (Augmented / Avg 2 limbs / Avg whole body)
Bod: 1
Agi: 2 (7 / 5 / 3)
Rea: 2
Str: 1 (5 / 3 / 2)
Phys: 2 (4 / 3 / 3)
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That's how we do it at my table, Kiirnodel, and I definitely agree it's not that much more work. Most characters will either get a single arm, two arms, or all four limbs replaced so there are rarely that many different calculations needed.
I honestly think a lot of the stigma (maybe that's not the right word, but I can't think of any better ones) around cyberlimbs and limits in 5th comes from this reading by Aaron from way back when:
Q: Since cyberlimbs have their own attributes, do you use their attributes to calculate limits when using them for a test, either individually, as an average, or as the weakest limb?
Since cyberlimbs are augmentations, and augmentations can affect limits (as per page 100 under Final Calculations, "since many [derived mechanics] are adjusted by augmentations"), it logically follows that when a cyberlimb is used in a test they affect the relevant limit for that test. Otherwise, the rules become rather inconsistent.
Cyberlimbs are not included in inherent limit calculations.
Of course, Aaron wasn't always correct and his answers did come with the caveat that they were provided "as is", so we've simply chosen to house rule this as we saw fit. I do like the cyberlimbs-as-gear approach and having that mesh with Physical limit from a rules perspective; may not be RAW or even RAI, but it definitely works for me.
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Well, thanks to the new errata team we might have an answer to this soon.... (well a few months)
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If they really wanted to get rid of those problems, they'd just change the rules to say "your cyber arm comes default at your AGI and STR. You can add up to 4 points of augmentation to each, for physical limit add your augmentation bonus of your limb as 1/4 to the equation."
Consistency without rules- and gear bloat
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Nice and easy solution, Jack_Spade. I might update my house rule's document with that, but using the SR4 version where enhancements went to 7 for cyberlimbs. They'd be expensive, but they would definitely work.
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The limb already starts off at the average human strength and agility (3). So I really don't see the issue.
And when you consider what the true purpose of a cyberlimb is for, and who the most plentiful metatype is....
The fact that a very small percentage of the population 'weaponize' their limbs doesn't mean they all are.
Remember, cyberlimbs were invented for people that actually LOST a limb through accident, disease or mishap. And the largest majority metatype is human.
Does it 'suck' for the orks and trolls? Yes. But those trogs and truskers just have to suck it up.
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I really like cyberlimbs (and Infected, Wired Reflexes, M-b-W, Changelings..., but I digress), and all the discussions that have come up because of them.
What if you were to combine elements of 4 and 5 editions? Have all cyberlimbs come with average Agility/Strength for Metatype (3/3 human, 2/7 Troll, 4/3 Elf, etc...). If they're an oddball with Genetic Optimization, Exceptional Attribute, or Metagenic Improvement, just hand wave it. If they have all three, well...
Cyberlimbs can receive up to 7 points of Agility and/or Strength, as this would take the limb +4 over natural maximum. It takes capacity and costs less, or its 'customized' and does not take capacity but costs more.
Redliner now lets you break the +4 limit, since it makes sense (you're pushing your ware beyond your body's ability to handle it), allowing you to go to +6 with four limbs.
Instead of dealing with all sorts of math for what limb does what, change it to this: if the cyberlimb can do it, use that limb's stats. If it requires multiple limbs, the character can only get up to 4 points above his natural attribute. Let's say we have Lopsided Johnny, a guy with a cyberarm and cyberleg, both maxed out 10. His regular Agility and Strength are 2 each. Johnny goes and shoots someone, Agility 10. He then runs in, Agility 6 (that cyberleg keeps pumping and pumping, but his couch potato ass can't keep up) and punches him in the face (also Agility 6 because I believe hand to hand is a lot more than one arm), but his punch lands with a 10P.