Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Mephisto on (11:20:17/05-07-16)

Title: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (11:20:17/05-07-16)
As the title says, any word on a reprint of Street Grimoire (I assume and hope with errata folded in)? I'm not about to pay $200 on the secondary market (some people's kids...).

Also, the core book that is available on shelves now should all be the second printing with errata added, right? I have the first printing, but am thinking of 'upgrading' (having an 'incomplete' version and knowing there's a more accurate one out there bugs me...) and maybe picking up a second copy for the table/players. Is the binding issue fixed with the second printing?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (21:20:22/05-07-16)
There is a second printing in process, but I'm not sure as to specific dates. I'm not aware of any binding issues per se, but the second printing should include errata and corrections.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (14:48:20/05-20-16)
Files have been sent; reprint in process. New version will be a softcover with new art; they are hoping to have some copies in hand for Origins. The PDF will also be updated (confirming timing). Errata will also be released, but in layout backlog.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Nightmare on (15:32:15/05-20-16)
Files have been sent; reprint in process. New version will be a softcover with new art; they are hoping to have some copies in hand for Origins. The PDF will also be updated (confirming timing). Errata will also be released, but in layout backlog.

You are the best, AJ!!!
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (18:58:04/05-20-16)
Well it seems there's a pulse again... question is is it a first sign of recovery, or just a last rally before death?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Medicineman on (01:54:48/05-21-16)
Well it seems there's a pulse again... question is is it a first sign of recovery, or just a last rally before death?
hey ,don't be so negative ....
how do you say ; Cut the guys some slack ( ? )
there is so many reasons to be critic you don't also need to be ...."Preemptive critic"  !

Hough!
Medicineman
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: MijRai on (02:25:16/05-21-16)
Eh, enough slack has been cut at this point, Medicineman.  If they want more, they have to earn it. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: ScytheKnight on (07:04:19/05-21-16)
Well it seems there's a pulse again... question is is it a first sign of recovery, or just a last rally before death?
hey ,don't be so negative ....
how do you say ; Cut the guys some slack ( ? )
there is so many reasons to be critic you don't also need to be ...."Preemptive critic"  !

Hough!
Medicineman

I've run out of slack to cut...

Long story short after 2 years in errata limbo I've reached a point where I'm seriously doubting how much CGL cares about Shadowrun.

now I want to believe this is the start of a new line of errata on SR5... but frankly considering this was supposed to be out last month and we haven't heard ANYTHING about it until now, leaves me with some serious doubts.

I want t be wrong about them... but...
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (13:48:34/07-07-16)
Seems to be available:

Shadowrun 5th Edition Street Grimoire (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/206979)

Still not sure I like the idea of the reprint being softcover... :-\
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (15:04:35/07-07-16)
Seems to be available:

Shadowrun 5th Edition Street Grimoire (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/206979)

Still not sure I like the idea of the reprint being softcover... :-\

Stupid, silly question, but does the price reflect a softcover? I have less issue with softcovers, as long as I am not paying hardcover pricing.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: PiXeL01 on (17:26:06/07-07-16)
More importantly are there any changes?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (17:27:11/07-07-16)
More importantly are there any changes?
Not paying 28 bucks plus tax and shipping to find out ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Beta on (17:57:37/07-07-16)
More importantly are there any changes?

No updates visible at DriveThruRPG.  You'd hope that if they did include the existing errata (as a minimum) that they'd also release the updated softcopy.

That said, I welcome more softcover books!  For books that I'm not in all the time, I'd rather have the cheaper version (but a physical book over a pdf).  Will be keeping an eye in my FLGS to see if they get the softcover version in.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (19:41:52/07-07-16)
Catalyst has fallen and can't get up...
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: PiXeL01 on (22:43:33/07-07-16)
Catalyst has fallen and can't get up...

More like being cozy in front of the pyre of ignored complaints and negatives messages and refuses to do anything about them
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (07:04:37/07-08-16)
The original price of the SG was $50...down $10 to $40 (before discounting). It is updated to incorporate errata/edits and the PDF will be revised as well.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (07:15:35/07-08-16)
The original price of the SG was $50...down $10 to $40 (before discounting). It is updated to incorporate errata/edits and the PDF will be revised as well.

Thank you for the info. That's all I needed to know.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (07:49:20/07-08-16)
Cheers, AJCarrington; your efforts at keeping open lines of communication are appreciated as always.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (08:30:46/07-08-16)
Softcover? What the frag?!
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (11:06:44/07-13-16)
New cover:

(http://cdn.miniaturemarket.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/cat27003s.jpg)

I like this one a lot better.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: odd on (11:16:38/07-13-16)
I agree with that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: MijRai on (13:21:16/07-13-16)
Seconded.  This is much better, less...  Cluttered.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Dinendae on (23:50:55/07-13-16)
New cover:

(http://cdn.miniaturemarket.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/cat27003s.jpg)

I like this one a lot better.

Ditto! The previous one wasn't bad in my opinion, but I like this one a lot better!
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (13:54:05/07-19-16)
This cover is far nice imho.

Anyone know if they updated the PDF with the errata yet?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Beta on (15:29:17/07-19-16)
This cover is far nice imho.

Anyone know if they updated the PDF with the errata yet?

I checked drivethrurpg.com today, and it said I had no updates for anything in my account ... which isn't to say that there might not be an updated pdf elsewhere, but if so it hasn't gotten to drivethrurpg yet.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (07:15:40/08-01-16)
Updated version is now live on DTRPG. I suspect that those who purchased via BattleCorps will be receiving an email shortly.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Dinendae on (07:29:54/08-01-16)
Updated version is now live on DTRPG. I suspect that those who purchased via BattleCorps will be receiving an email shortly.


Yep! I got an update notice last night from them.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sterling on (12:25:41/08-01-16)
Updated version is now live on DTRPG. I suspect that those who purchased via BattleCorps will be receiving an email shortly.

Got my updated copy.  Trouble is, the only change is the cover! NONE of the existing errata has been incorporated!

Hoping that this will be corrected shortly and another update is in the works.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (13:37:41/08-01-16)
Not entirely, Sterling. There are differences, but they are relatively minor. My PDF comparison tool failed to gather any differences, but Mark I eyeball the spells section for example and you'll find some.

Net is now called Net Bind, for example, Stench specifies that it targets enemies and allies alike, the Exorcism metamagic is defined as taking a Complex action, and so on. Too numerous to list, especially if I can't easily compare the two texts for some reason.

There's also a subtle color change through the entire book, for some reason.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on (14:25:22/08-01-16)
It would be nice to have a comprehensive change list, especially from someone at Catalyst.  I have both copies but obviously I'm going to miss a lot. 

*pretty sure I saw some new art

*I'm just assuming the various drain codes are fixed, haven't even checked. 

*I'd really like to see format changes, but that's the hardest to notice. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Fizzygoo on (18:50:16/08-01-16)
Of the Errata (from 9/24/2014) (http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/E-CAT27003E_SG-Errata.pdf?f365d3):

* Errata's revised Drain Value changes not in 2nd printing1.
* Errata's revised Range changes not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 37 revision not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 103 revisions (2 of them) not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 105 revisions (2 of them) not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 106 revisions (2 of them) not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 109 revision not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 110 revisions (3 of them) not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 111 revision not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 113 revision not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 115 revision not in 2nd printing.
---End page 1 of 4 of Errata pdf---
Randomly choosing one errata on each of the 3 remaining pages
* Errata's pg 117 Lock Test Correction not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 129 Group Bond Force Clarification not in 2nd printing.
* Errata's pg 177 The Beast's Way Power List Change not in 2nd printing.

So while...
Trouble is, the only change is the cover!
...is incorrect,
this...
NONE of the existing errata has been incorporated!
...is most likely very true.

1 Unless you're counting Sludge [Object], but my 1st printing version has the Errata's Drain Value so I always assumed that was just the Errata's need of Errata.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on (21:55:04/08-01-16)
If the drain value changes (the most obvious, first thing that everyone knew was wrong) aren't in this printing, then What was the fucking point?!?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (22:42:40/08-01-16)
Pretty new cover?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (22:53:04/08-01-16)
The new cover is pretty swanky, so kudos to the artist.

Anyone know why it was changed?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Finstersang on (03:30:50/08-02-16)
Seems like the Errata process has a more "wholesome" approach, judging from Patrick Goodman´s annoncement. Thus, no Errata in the reprint, even the most obvious?  ???

Stange choice, especially with all the ruckus about the missing errata. Is it going into physical print this way?

However, the new cover does actually look much better. Just not to end on a sour note ;)
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (07:37:08/08-02-16)
If the drain value changes (the most obvious, first thing that everyone knew was wrong) aren't in this printing, then What was the fucking point?!?
]

Catalyst needed more copies to sell, and just changing the cover doesn't require going back through formatting, new proofs, and updating everything.

There's a reason that the only way we're getting anything like official overall errata is because someone came to them and offered.  It's been over 3 years since SR5 Core published, and it's been pretty obvious in that time that Catalyst isn't interested in spending any money on correcting the known flaws.

I can't really blame them, I'd probably be pushing on getting more books out to get money coming in as well, but it's frustrating as a fan of the IP.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (10:53:57/08-02-16)
An aside...anyone who purchased their PDF directly from CGL (BattleCorps) should go to their account and check their order. The download count should have been reset.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (12:04:31/08-02-16)
The new cover is pretty swanky, so kudos to the artist.

Anyone know why it was changed?

To fool chummers into thinking they were getting a new errata'd edition to grab more ¥?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sterling on (12:33:28/08-02-16)
The original price of the SG was $50...down $10 to $40 (before discounting). It is updated to incorporate errata/edits and the PDF will be revised as well.

Maybe I'm just too naïve, but when AJ Carrington passes along this type of information I wanted to believe it.

Fool me nine times...
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (13:28:48/08-02-16)
I pass along the info get... :-\
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (18:49:21/08-02-16)
This is being looked into...those changes were supposed to have been incorporated.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (19:29:45/08-02-16)
The original price of the SG was $50...down $10 to $40 (before discounting). It is updated to incorporate errata/edits and the PDF will be revised as well.

Maybe I'm just too naïve, but when AJ Carrington passes along this type of information I wanted to believe it.

Fool me nine times...
I'll be the first to agree that Catalyst has a communications problem, but that has nothing to do with AJ's efforts to keep us appraised of what's going on.

I pass along the info get... :-\
And you are greatly appreciated. For all my criticism of Catalyst and their business practice, I for one would just like to know that none of that extends to your efforts here. As someone who doesn't use the tumbler or Facebook, your information is what keeps me up to date on what's going on in the 6th World, so thank you for that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (19:37:01/08-02-16)
This is being looked into...those changes were supposed to have been incorporated.

Like the old playtests weren't supposed to have printed in the SR5 Core?  You guys really need to get a grip on your publishing process.   :'(

Appreciate you being up front about it, though!  Like Brackhaus says, please don't take my criticism of the results as criticism of you personally.  I'm just a frustrated fan who'd really like to think that the guys who hold the license to my favorite pen and paper game would have gotten their ducks in a row by now.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Beta on (23:02:08/08-02-16)
I'd long mumbled about not liking reading pdfs, so I snapped up a copy of the new paperback version of the Grimoire, to have both a paper copy and the errata incorporated. I just checked a few items, and it doesn't look like they made it into the paper version any more than they did into the pdf.  At least the pdf can get re-issued again.

At least I can now mark it up by hand, which is looking more and more like the surest way to have the errata on hand ....  ::)

In the Quality biz, this is what we'd call a critical non-conformance, the sort of thing where '"we promise we'll do better next time" doesn't really cut it as a corrective action.  Catalyst needs to look at a major change of processes, or how they resource the role responsible, because clearly a key activity of the company is routinely failing.  It is the sort of thing that, in other businesses at least, contracts (and jobs) get lost for. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Finstersang on (04:20:17/08-03-16)
In the Quality biz, this is what we'd call a critical non-conformance, the sort of thing where '"we promise we'll do better next time" doesn't really cut it as a corrective action.  Catalyst needs to look at a major change of processes, or how they resource the role responsible, because clearly a key activity of the company is routinely failing.  It is the sort of thing that, in other businesses at least, contracts (and jobs) get lost for.

Plus, it´s often a very critical part of the product that´s missing or screwed up the most: Stat tables, pet prices (oh wait, that was totally intentional ::)), the Errata in the reprint of the sourcebook that people have cried for the most for over 2 years...

Jeez, if that happened in a sixth world A+ con, they´d probably be searching for a faceshifting deep cover spy in quality control or a rouge AI in the mainframe :P
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (04:57:47/08-03-16)
I'd long mumbled about not liking reading pdfs, so I snapped up a copy of the new paperback version of the Grimoire, to have both a paper copy and the errata incorporated. I just checked a few items, and it doesn't look like they made it into the paper version any more than they did into the pdf.  At least the pdf can get re-issued again.

At least I can now mark it up by hand, which is looking more and more like the surest way to have the errata on hand ....  ::)

In the Quality biz, this is what we'd call a critical non-conformance, the sort of thing where '"we promise we'll do better next time" doesn't really cut it as a corrective action.  Catalyst needs to look at a major change of processes, or how they resource the role responsible, because clearly a key activity of the company is routinely failing.  It is the sort of thing that, in other businesses at least, contracts (and jobs) get lost for.

A critical non-conformance that is the main common issue across nearly everything published in the SR5 range since release.  Like I said, I don't know what's going on at Catalyst, but something between the editorial and publishing stages is failing QC and not getting caught.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sterling on (05:30:42/08-03-16)
The original price of the SG was $50...down $10 to $40 (before discounting). It is updated to incorporate errata/edits and the PDF will be revised as well.

Maybe I'm just too naïve, but when AJ Carrington passes along this type of information I wanted to believe it.

Fool me nine times...
I'll be the first to agree that Catalyst has a communications problem, but that has nothing to do with AJ's efforts to keep us appraised of what's going on.

I pass along the info get... :-\
And you are greatly appreciated. For all my criticism of Catalyst and their business practice, I for one would just like to know that none of that extends to your efforts here. As someone who doesn't use the tumbler or Facebook, your information is what keeps me up to date on what's going on in the 6th World, so thank you for that.

It was not my intention to shoot the messenger, and I'm sorry if you got that impression.

I specifically mentioned information passed by AJ as it's usually 100% accurate, and like everyone else here I truly appreciate AJ's efforts in keeping us updated.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (08:49:20/08-03-16)
Does anyone have a physical copy of the second printing yet?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Beta on (13:16:57/08-03-16)
Yes (hence my earlier comment that at least now I can mark up errata by hand)

I checked drain/range codes (first table in the errata) and those were not in.  neither were the corrected wording for the shapechange spell, several instances of  object resistance threshold versus the revised wording.  Didn't check everything in the errata document, but none of the errata that I checked were in the physical copy.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (13:49:34/08-03-16)
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

I'm not sure if they need to hire people, or fire someone, but they need to do SOMETHING before they end up driving away their customer base with this bulldrek.

I have the patience of a saint, but even my tolerance is being stretched thin. Which is sad, because I LOVE Shadowrun. I'd hate to see it ruined by the drooling incompetence or deliberate sabotage of the people who own the rights. :'(
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (16:07:44/08-03-16)
Thanks Beta. Not what I wanted to hear, but needed to know.

I've passed this along as well.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (16:49:12/08-03-16)
this

fire someone
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (19:10:19/08-03-16)
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

Their track record would indicate otherwise.

I too want to believe, but there's a P.T. Barnum aspect creeping into this whole thing. I too love Shadowrun, down to my core, and it kills me to see it (not to mention they're customer base) (mis)treated this way.

At least I hear there's now an index. I figure we'll only have to buy 5-6 printings to get the book we should have had 1st time around.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (19:20:38/08-03-16)
this

fire someone

This assumes someone CAN be fired...

My limited amount of research into InMediaRes/Catalyst shows me that there is very few people in the company as a whole, and many of them are shareholders/limited partners.

Meaning, actual employees numbers are small. And this is supported by their use of freelancers for most of the artwork and writing.
Catalyst's assets are also small, and the fact that they are dealing with a licensed material places them in a hard spot, as a portion of revenue must go back to the license holders (in some cases, as high as 75%. Although I have no idea what Catalyst's agreement states).

In short, its easy to say shit without knowing anything, and once you know something, then  suddenly options dry up.

It could be a very real case of being between a Rock and a Hard Place for catalyst.... And given how many studios that publish PnP material have turned to dust in the last few decades..... very hard for Catalyst to just 'hire' someone..... or even 'fire someone'....
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (19:43:14/08-03-16)
We never had this much problems with FanPro but than they cared about the game
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (20:05:34/08-03-16)
You mean other then the mess 4e was? (Hence the 4eA book that corrected a lot of those issues.)

Or the fact that FanPro broke their contract for non-payment of royalites?

Or the fact that FanPro dropped plot scripts and didn't pay some writers?


FanPro had MANY issues, just not as many people whined about it back then.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (20:55:40/08-03-16)
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

Their track record would indicate otherwise.

I too want to believe, but there's a P.T. Barnum aspect creeping into this whole thing. I too love Shadowrun, down to my core, and it kills me to see it (not to mention they're customer base) (mis)treated this way.

At least I hear there's now an index. I figure we'll only have to buy 5-6 printings to get the book we should have had 1st time around.

They have the ability to do better, they just haven't, either by choice or some other reason. Which is what makes this even more irritating.

Hell, my future brother in law's dream is to one day have the money to buy the rights to SR and FIX THIS DREK
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (22:49:26/08-03-16)
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (23:05:37/08-03-16)
Never said it was a realistic dream.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (02:29:33/08-04-16)
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

Their track record would indicate otherwise.

I too want to believe, but there's a P.T. Barnum aspect creeping into this whole thing. I too love Shadowrun, down to my core, and it kills me to see it (not to mention they're customer base) (mis)treated this way.

At least I hear there's now an index. I figure we'll only have to buy 5-6 printings to get the book we should have had 1st time around.

They have the ability to do better, they just haven't, either by choice or some other reason. Which is what makes this even more irritating.

Hell, my future brother in law's dream is to one day have the money to buy the rights to SR and FIX THIS DREK

I have the same dream (unfortunately involving the lottery...) and have posted about it on the Shadowrun subreddit.

I'd get all the licenses (PnP, video game, Earthdawn, etc.) back under one roof, as well as other plans, and give them the respect they deserve.

Excuse me, alarm is going off, time to wake up...
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (03:02:11/08-04-16)
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

Their track record would indicate otherwise.

I too want to believe, but there's a P.T. Barnum aspect creeping into this whole thing. I too love Shadowrun, down to my core, and it kills me to see it (not to mention they're customer base) (mis)treated this way.

At least I hear there's now an index. I figure we'll only have to buy 5-6 printings to get the book we should have had 1st time around.

They have the ability to do better, they just haven't, either by choice or some other reason. Which is what makes this even more irritating.

Hell, my future brother in law's dream is to one day have the money to buy the rights to SR and FIX THIS DREK

I have the same dream (unfortunately involving the lottery...) and have posted about it on the Shadowrun subreddit.

I'd get all the licenses (PnP, video game, Earthdawn, etc.) back under one roof, as well as other plans, and give them the respect they deserve.

Excuse me, alarm is going off, time to wake up...

Well, ok. It's less of a dream and more of a dream-like delusion brought on by lack of sleep. He'll stay up for DAYS working on whatever pet project has piqued his interest, but you can be sure whatever he was working on will be PERFECT when he's done with it. I'm the same way, but far less severely. At least I can sleep!
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (05:14:18/08-04-16)
Figure either of you could remember to send the correct proofs to the printers?

Because that's the level the bar's at right now.   >:(
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (05:18:49/08-04-16)
Figure either of you could remember to send the correct proofs to the printers?

Because that's the level the bar's at right now.   >:(

OR, the printer printed the wrong proofs....


Its not uncommon for the Printer to hold onto the proofs as leverage while books are printed, shipped to distrubiters, and then to stores for sale.

In fact, this practice is so widespread (and OLD!!) That it was partly responsible for the collapse of TSR back in 1996/97.


Don't assume you know what happened when you sit on the sidelines.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (10:15:28/08-04-16)
Anyone's fault BUT Catalyst, eh?

There are 2 major problems with your theory.

1) Catalyst's track record.

2) The DTRPG PDF wasn't updated with the errata either.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (10:45:13/08-04-16)
No, Catalyst has done a lot of things wrong and has admitted as much.


But it amazes me how many people 'think' they know something when really, they know sweet fuck all.

And SOME people have even gone to the point of telling us that they 'know' shit (like how NDAs for freelancers work, how the PnP business model works) when all they are proving is, in fact, they know sweet fuck all.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that InMediaRes/Catalyst is just swimming in money and are just lazy and trying to milk everyone.

Yet the PnP market is littered by the gravestones of publishing companies.... and I wouldn't be surprised if Catalyst was a stuggling company just trying to keep the lights on and publishing - as that seems to be the case for many publishers nowadays.

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.

One just has to spend a little time in Google and wikipedia to see how many publishers have followed the Doodoo bird.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (16:52:09/08-04-16)
I'm under no illusion that the people at Catalyst (all 3 or 4 of them) are sitting there rolling in nuyen.

But tell me, how much time would it have taken one of them to sit down and compare the new print proof side-by-side with the errata document to verify the changes made it in before sending it off to the printer/DTRPG? 30 minutes? 60? Is one hour of one person's time there going to bankrupt them? Yeah, poor, misunderstood publisher.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (20:24:11/08-04-16)
If this was the first time this had happened, it wouldn't be a big deal.

It isn't.  Not even remotely close.  This sort of 'mistake' has happened consistently for the last several years, from old playtests getting published in SR5 Core, to the Rainforest Carbine, to the original publishing of Street Grimoire having powers just straight left out, and then further not corrected in the reprint, and a myriad of editorial errors in every published SR5 supplement so far.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Hobbes on (14:06:20/08-06-16)

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.


As far as I know there are only a handful of PnP RPG companies with double digit full time employees.  Games Workshop and Hasbro are the two big ones, but GW handed off all the RPG stuff to Fantasy Flight.  Fantasy Flight games has a pretty decent sized staff but they're also doing CCGs and Boardgames and whatnot.  Catalyst is likely one of the moderate sized ones, they've got a couple very good franchises.  The rest of the gaming companies out there I'm betting are pretty small. 

And, yeah, most of the staff is likely paid much less then they could be making working in other industries.  The company itself is likely in the Black steadily enough, but I doubt anyone is getting rich off us PnP gamers.

tl;dr treat your game companies nicely because if they go under the IP is basically gone forever because it becomes the property of someone who doesn't care and will only sell the rights for more money than anyone can ever make off it.     
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (14:19:10/08-06-16)

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.


As far as I know there are only a handful of PnP RPG companies with double digit full time employees.  Games Workshop and Hasbro are the two big ones, but GW handed off all the RPG stuff to Fantasy Flight.  Fantasy Flight games has a pretty decent sized staff but they're also doing CCGs and Boardgames and whatnot.  Catalyst is likely one of the moderate sized ones, they've got a couple very good franchises.  The rest of the gaming companies out there I'm betting are pretty small. 

And, yeah, most of the staff is likely paid much less then they could be making working in other industries.  The company itself is likely in the Black steadily enough, but I doubt anyone is getting rich off us PnP gamers.

tl;dr treat your game companies nicely because if they go under the IP is basically gone forever because it becomes the property of someone who doesn't care and will only sell the rights for more money than anyone can ever make off it.     

Reaper Miniatures is a good example of this. They publish several games, sell both plastic and metal miniatures, and run the annual ReaperCon. Their company is still so small that I know every single employee personally. Most of the employees, even the full-time ones, hold second jobs to make ends meet and only put up with it because they love what the company produces and don't want to see it go away.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (19:46:51/08-06-16)
Okay, but how does that matter to expecting competence in their main line of business (publishing RPG supplements), who in fact incorporated specifically to publish Battletech and Shadowrun supplements?

This is the thing they do, and frankly after a few months short of a decade, they should be able to manage the basics of it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: EiraHaexa on (21:04:01/08-06-16)
Okay, but how does that matter to expecting competence in their main line of business (publishing RPG supplements), who in fact incorporated specifically to publish Battletech and Shadowrun supplements?

This is the thing they do, and frankly after a few months short of a decade, they should be able to manage the basics of it.

Well, they probably have to work through enough bureaucratic red tape to make Dis blush.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (22:00:00/08-06-16)
I'm sorry size means little in this case.  CGL out sources almost all the writing for Shadowrun and instead act as an editor/publisher so a mess up like this is just plain incompetent on a major level.  Many book publishers and magazine company have similar staffs and jobs and they manage to get it right.

You talk like the fact they're not making tons of money is an excuse but they're either doing this for the money or because they love the game and I'm not seeing much love these days. 

The plain fact is as cousumers we have the right to expect a quialty product and we're not getting it.   Don't get me wrong I love S5 but I remember the old days before all the word processors and 5 billion small 2 person game companies with games printed on newsprint and they managed to do a better job than CGL is.   
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Reaver on (01:08:42/08-07-16)
I'm sorry size means little in this case.  CGL out sources almost all the writing for Shadowrun and instead act as an editor/publisher so a mess up like this is just plain incompetent on a major level.  Many book publishers and magazine company have similar staffs and jobs and they manage to get it right.

You talk like the fact they're not making tons of money is an excuse but they're either doing this for the money or because they love the game and I'm not seeing much love these days. 

The plain fact is as cousumers we have the right to expect a quialty product and we're not getting it.   Don't get me wrong I love S5 but I remember the old days before all the word processors and 5 billion small 2 person game companies with games printed on newsprint and they managed to do a better job than CGL is.

That's some rose colored glasses you are wearing there! Where can I get a pair??


Lets see.....

Palladium books: Robotech (1986-1990 printings) Missing stats for several vehicles and Mecha. Missing weapon systems clearly shown in 13 episodes missing from the Alpha fighter, and clearly shown in 3 episodes missing from the Beta fighter. Miss categorized several power-armor and battloids in Southern cross. Miss printed the damage from fighter pods to be 3d4x100mdc...Ship weapon systems listed as doing 1d4x1000, All of which wasn't errata'd until the 1992 FOURTH reprints of the books.
RIFTS: Multiple errors when quoting their own previous released material. 
And lets not talk about the Nightbane/Nightlord legal issues that lead to can actual lawsuit by Clive Barker.

White Wolf: Vampire the masquerade: Many consistency errors among the clan stats in the core books that flew in direct contradiction to the clan books, and even the clan books contradicted other clan books!

Steve Jackson Games, GURPS: multiple errors in their own rules and page reference numbers.

TSR: DnD line. Multiple consistency errors all through both the 1ed, 2dnd books where there was errors in charts, errors in the consistency of spells and saving throws, and just general lore and world problems (most notably in Greyhawk). Marvel Super Heroes: HUNDREDS (yes hundreds) of characters published multiple times with different stats for attributes and powers and that in just 16 released books (both by them and licensed outsourcing)

FASA 1e and 2e Shadowrun errors, Battletech errors, Crimson sky errors...

Should I go on? I have about a half dozen more general examples from smaller AND larger publishing houses...

And lets see if we can find any thing outside of the Games media.... How about Gawker? You know, that online 'News" media empire of over a half dozen webpages? You know, the one sued into bankruptcy due to their LACK of journalistic practises??

What about Salon webpage that backed a KNOWN and PROVEN plagiarist, refusing to remove his articles with proven stolen content??


******

The only thing that has changed over the years in the availability of the internet, both as a source of fact checking, and as a platform for people to whine and cry. Nothing has really changed in the publishing world, except for the political leanings of the content and the overall general decline of journalistic standards.... be that in News reporting, fiction, science reporting, ethics, or even in the grasp of the English language...

.... And don't even get me started on the "new age" cancer that is Social Media (be that twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, myspace, (or whatever fuck-tard-trending platform of the week!)



Is Catalyst perfect? HELL NO. They make mistakes, and in some cases huge ones. Could they, should they do better? I would say yes, they can, have, and I hope, will do better in the future.


But it is amazingly frustrating to me, to listen to a bunch of (what I am assuming) cry baby assholes who have never worked a day in their lives in this media dump on the people that actually DO, and with all the gusto and bravo and courage that the internet allows them to draw up while sitting safely behind their keyboards. I have done writing, in fact a full 1/4 of my job is writing! And while I do not write fantasy, I write something far harder. I write technical updates for field construction changes and user operational and service guides for multi-billion dollar construction works. These take MONTHS of time and effort, and are often times made incorrect by the time I am finished due to OTHER changes that had to be implemented. (And that's before you take into account by piss poor language and writing skills)

I Challenge you ALL to sit down and write up a Shadowrun-esk sourcebook (don't care what it covers) and then post it on these forums to let the community rip it to shreds and call you weeks to months of effort "Fucking useless, hack-filled drivel" and other wonderful comments.

Many of us old timers on this site (and there is NOT that many of us left!) Remember the days when Jason Hardy used to post fairly regularly. When other freelancers would come by and answer questions and when other members of Catalyst would do the same.....


That's just not the case any more. Jason Hardy hasn't said anything in a LONG while (not that I blame him!), Many other freelancers have given up coming here. And many of the most knowledgeable forum members have walked away. And I point my finger at the reason squarely at some members of these forums.


You want answers.... Then you shit all over the people who give you answers, then wonder why they don't come back to give you more answers!!!

If you can't figure out why, then my retarded-fuck-wit friends, I suggest you look in a God Damn Mirrior!!! Cause you are NOT helping the situation.

Be happy that there are people like AJ, Critias, Wak, Patrick  and the select other few who are willing to come here and help and share. Treat them with some respect, or they too will end up waving the middle finger at you/us and walking away.



End Story is: The errata changes were supposed to be in the book, but were not, we currently have no idea how this error happened, but it has. Until it gets sorted out, save your vitriol until you know where is should be spewed.




<To the mods: Yes I used harsh language, yes I directed it at the community. And yes I will happily take any censoring/banning without complaint. But sometimes, shit has to be said.>

Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: The Tekwych on (01:51:44/08-07-16)
Where is the Like button?
+1
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Imladir on (03:25:09/08-07-16)
The fact that someone breaks the law doesn't mean I can too. By the same token, the fact that other companies drop the ball doesn't mean that there are no consequences if Catalyst screws up.

I'm not saying we should hang each and everyone of them. Mistakes happen. And they do everywhere. Hell, part of my own job is to write too. Scientific papers. You know, those that advance SOTA (or should at least). Even there, mistakes are made. Sometimes, mistakes that completely negate what you thought you just did. No matter how many times you check, and re-check, and other people do. It happens.

But you know what? When it does, you own up to it. You fix the mistakes, and you make sure, as best you can, that everyone is aware of it as soon as you are yourself. Of course, first you have to know that there is a mistake. So yes, you may view some messages here as whines. Or rants. Or...well whatever. Sure, it could be better. Would there still be whines were the books perfect? Probably, about something else. But it doesn't matter: the fact is that, "thanks" to that, Catalyst (and others in the same position) know if, and where, there are mistakes. Some are debatable and matters of opinion, like rule points, layouts and so on. But in some cases, like this one here, there's absolutely no doubt that mistakes were made.

Sure, it's not even been a week, we are in August, it's GenCon, etc. Do this last episode warrants such a high level of criticism? Maybe not. As you said, it happened, it happens, and it will happen. But the fact is that you can't take this last incident in isolation of anything else. Take the ongoing situation with the errata. The load times on the forum are going from lame to retarded to just completely unresponsive at times. The forum's engine is out of date. You could probably find some more examples.

Yes, problems like that are "normal". They can happen, and no one in their right mind should expect them to be tackled in the minute they do. Even if they were, no one would expect those problems to be fixed in a day. Again, no one would realistically expect anyone to meet each and every deadline.

But... But you have to communicate around those issues. First to acknowledge the problem. Second to propose a solution and a deadline. And if you don't meet the deadline? Fine, it's cool. As long as you acknowledge it, explain why and what you are doing to meet the new deadline. And here, Catalyst completely dropped the ball.

Is it a hard job? Maybe. Probably. But it needs to be done nonetheless. And it's not. Yes, there might be reasons. And I do understand that no one wants to be the messenger if it's just to be shot on sight. Hell, I wouldn't want to be that messenger. But it must be done. Yes, some will "shit all over" the one who gives answers. While there's no doubt that it's a dick move, it's no reason to "punish" the majority for the actions of a minority. And let's be honest here: would that minority even be a fraction of what it is now were the situation somewhat better?

There is some hope thanks to Patrick with the errata, which everyone saluted. But it's not enough by itself. It's just a start. An important one, to be sure, but nothing more. I don't think it would kill anyone at Catalyst to post a message on their blog acknowledging the problem with this reprint for example.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (05:18:46/08-07-16)
Three years, Reaver.  That's how long SR5 has been out.  Three years and what, 6 additional sourcebooks, all with glaring editorial errors?

We still don't have comprehensive official errata for the core rulebook.  In fact, we have every reason to believe that Catalyst has never so much as bothered to compile comprehensive errata for it, beyond the stuff that we as a community called out as errors, mostly within a week of publication of the PDF.   Two months before the physical copies even appeared.

Patrick Goodman has volunteered himself to do it out of a desire to actually see it done, and rather than be shamed at their own lack of quality control they have embraced it.

I'm willing to cut folks a lot of slack, otherwise I wouldn't still be interested in SR, but call a spade a spade.  All the good will in the world isn't getting the problems with the product fixed.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (10:36:58/08-07-16)
1st off Reaver I never said anything about the errors of the writers in fact I stated that the problem was in Editing and your wrong a lot has changed in Editing we have software that checks spelling, we have layout software to makes what used to be one of the largest time consuming job to be a breeze in the park but yes errors happens.  The problem is that no one is trying to fix the errors even a little.  Take Street Grimoire it is common sense to check the test copy before you give the go ahead on the print run and it would have only taken a few moments to do a spot check on 4 or 5 of the major errata to be sure that the right file was used not doing this is a fail!

You talk about all the errors that happen in various gaming books but you do not acknowledge the that many of those companies if they did a second printing would print a corrected version and that when fixing these things was mostly done by hand.  Also if you want to name drop how about Armadillo Press even smaller than CGL but not only have they always made sure to publish their errata but when the reprint it is always the corrected version.
Writers are human and make mistakes that why there are editors but even editors makes mistakes that why we have Errata but CGL is not only doing a very bad job editing but are also not publishing Errata at all!  They are producing around 4 to 6 physical books a year for S5 TRS who you ripped on was producing 4 to 6 physical books a month with a similar number of people many of them both writing as well as editing it does not compare!

P.S. As for not Working I Put in 60 hours this week as a manager and worked on my own campaign at home which means I expect a product that I do not have to rewrite to effetely run my game.  Which is why even though we all want to my group is currently not running a S5 game?         
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: MijRai on (13:34:53/08-07-16)
Yeah, I'm not exactly on your side here either, Reaver.  You have some good points, and there are people who are directing vitriol where it shouldn't be, but the bigger problem is with the company itself.  30 months since the last Errata update.  The fact that people have to literally go 'hey, we'll do it for free' for years before something comes of it is a problem.  It isn't isolated, as Imladir said; it's happened across the board with this edition of Shadowrun.  The tools have been there to rectify this, and only now is there an organized response to start working on it.  Hopefully, the Errata Team is allowed to make things better.  I want to have a positive impact on the game I enjoy.  I'm still not getting my hopes up at this point. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Mephisto on (13:41:58/08-07-16)
The most ironic part is that Reaver stamps his feet, rails and whines in the most offensive posts I've seen here...in an attempt to shame others he sees as railing against, whining and being offensive toward Catalyst...
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (14:02:56/08-07-16)
If you think those are the most offensive, in my studied opinion, you've not been paying attention. Not to excuse Reaver, but he's far from the worst that have posted here.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (19:43:36/08-07-16)
Friendly mod commentary.

Lots of opinions (some rather strong) and discourse is great...let's just remember to keep things civil.

Thanks, SR Mod
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Dinendae on (01:16:04/08-08-16)
It isn't isolated, as Imladir said; it's happened across the board with this edition of Shadowrun.


Just to touch on this a bit: It hasn't just been this edition either; SR4A had similar issues, and for quite awhile. I'm not so sure about SR4's early years, as I only came in when the SR4A core book was released, but from what I understand there were a ton of other major problems happening then as well.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Malevolence on (02:39:03/08-08-16)
Good examples of other publishers dropping the ball, Reaver. However, the frustration here isn't that there was a typo or two that got through, or some esoteric error where they referenced an incorrect page in another book or printed a rule that contradicted another book, etc. It is that errors that are immediately and unavoidably obvious to anyone that spent the time to read the book cover to cover (or even a chapter beginning to end) slip through. In every book they have published. And, what's worse, some of them are the same exact errors that were called out and acknowledged previously (like the many issues with tables).


But more specifically to the point for this reprinting is that a reprinting is supposed to include all of the official errata to date. The reprinting of the core book did. And yet this one did not. As far as can be told, not a single piece of errata was included. They didn't just overlook one or two items, they utterly failed to include it at all. It's like going to get your oil changed and they include an 11 point inspection and courtesy window cleaning and when you get the bill they've charged you full price, included the results of the 11 point inspection and your windows are sparkling clean, but they neglected to change the oil. In the case of SG's reprinting, the new cover art is nice and all, but if someone's ponying up the  money to repurchase a physical copy, it's because they want a single point of reference for the rules that includes the errata.


Now, in my opinion, SG wasn't ready for a reprinting anyway. There are way to many issues still outstanding that have been brought up by the community and not addressed by Catalyst to consider a reprinting substantially more usable than the original (even if it had included all of the currently published errata). They should have waited for Patrick and his team to finish at least their first pass (the low hanging fruit and most egregious errors) before asking folks to pony up for a reprint. Those asking for a new printing were a mote on the wind compared to the hurricane of demand for additional errata and clarification (and even then, I think they were largely asking for an update to the PDF).


So, yes, you've shown that all publishers are guilty of making the occasional mistake (they're human, just like we are and no one expects Catalyst to be absolutely perfect). And you've shown that in the paper publishing world, it can take years for updated material to reach print. But I know that in many of those cases (TSR/Wizards and SJG) they provided timely errata on the Internet once that became a viable mechanism (in the last 15 or so years) as I availed myself of it personally. So examples from the 80's and early to mid 90's utterly ignore the sea change that the Internet has had on the ability for publishers to reach their audience (or hear from them).


If you are a publisher, and your job is publishing, one expects a certain minimum level of competence at that function (cue the "You had ONE job" meme). Company size is no excuse. If I take my clothes to a tailor to be repaired and I get them back in unsatisfactory condition, I'm not going to suddenly say "oh, that's perfectly understandable" when the tailor says "oh, well, I only have one employee". I'm going to say "hire more or accept less work, but fix my clothes properly." If he's the only tailor in town (as Catalyst is the only publisher that can print Shadowrun rulebooks) and I therefore have to keep taking my clothes to him to be repaired and he consistently has low quality, I have a right to be upset and get even more irate, and eventually either seek another tailor in another town (new game system), or start buying clothes that are disposable (not sure what the analogy would be here - house rules?). The point is, no, I have never worked a day in the publishing industry. Nor have I worked as a tailor or a mechanic. I don't know what is involved in producing a quality product in those industries. But I have been a customer of all of the above and I know what I should reasonably expect of their products. Catalyst has consistently missed that mark, despite multiple assurances that they would fix the issues at fault.


We have a right to be upset and to demand (and expect) better, and to pretend otherwise is to be an unabashed apologist. It is understandable that we are angry and might be rude in expressing our anger. We can point the finger at the editor, because we own dictionaries and know that the editor is the one that is responsible for making sure the work is up to standard before it goes to printing. So when we say that the editor has failed in his (or her) job, we aren't miscasting our vitriol. As you said, the errata was supposed to be in this book. It was not. No, we don't know what happened (exactly), but we sure as hell know who was responsible. Now, you could argue that the printer dropped the ball. That the editor had all his (or her) ducks in a row and what went to the printer had all the errata, and updated content, and whatever else was supposed to have gone into the reprint. But we have a history of failure that makes that exceedingly unlikely. If they lay the blame at the printer for every past misdeed, then they are still responsible as they should have replaced that printer long ago (which, okay, MIGHT not be the editor's job). But that would still sit wrong as no one has yet (officially) laid the blame at printing, and that would not impact the PDF copy. So we are right back to the editor being where the buck stops. Maybe there are other employees there that are incompetent, maybe that's why the book doesn't have what it is supposed to, but the RESPONSIBILITY lays at the editor's feet.


Now, there is a case to be made for people perhaps being too personal in their accusations, name calling, and other inexcusable deficiencies in decorum, but the moderators have done a swell job of calling those out and corralling them. There is no call for you to address the rest of the community in such a fashion or lump all those expressing their dissatisfaction into one disdainful group.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (03:38:59/08-08-16)
To be fair, I believe the print run was happening anyway, as they likely needed more stock.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (06:45:15/08-08-16)
Well said, Malevolence, very well said.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (07:49:01/08-08-16)
To be fair, I believe the print run was happening anyway, as they likely needed more stock.
This. The decision to reprint is not based on, "Oh, look, Patrick has given us an errata doc on Book X. Let us print more, despite the 1,024 copies sitting in the warehouse." It's based on the much simpler, "Damn. We're down to 42 copies of Book X. We have orders for 256. We need more."

I will address this further later. Gotta feed my kid.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (08:49:36/08-08-16)
That is true Patrick but it is still normal to include any and all errata you have for the Book when reprinting.  It is just the way things are done to do otherwise is to sell an mess up product and THAT IS BAD BUSINESS
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (10:18:25/08-08-16)
I'm going to say this as nicely as I can, Tytalan: I know how it usually works. I've been a professional in this industry for close to 20 years. I've been part of this hobby for upwards of 35 years. I know how it's done, and I likewise know how it's supposed to be done. I will thank you not to insult my intelligence or my professionalism, even tacitly or unconsciously, by restating the obvious for the nth+1 time.
 
I will also thank you not to confuse me with a Catalyst Game Labs decision-maker. I am not one. I'm a freelancer, a contractor; I am hired on a case-by-case basis, and then I'm in the wind. I did not have anything to do with the decision to reprint, or the "Go" order that resulted in this going to print without the errata folded in. Don't berate me for a business decision that I was not involved with.
 
Catalyst has a lot of issues. I know that they're aware of some of them because I've talked with them about those issues a lot. Errata is one of those issues, and believe me, those discussions have been fraught at times. They don't have a lot of the errata. I'm going to be working to change that, but they don't, at the moment, have a lot of the errata.
 
HOWEVER. Yes, there's a "however." However, I've worked with CGL for a long time, and when they have errata and they send a book to reprint, as a general rule they DO incorporate that errata. I've watched the process many times. If they have errata, they incorporate it in a new printing. While this is a screw-up, and by no means their first, in my experience this particular screw-up is also an aberration. I don't know how it happened, but this particular error is not par for the course.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (11:31:51/08-08-16)
Yeah every time this comes up (another easily avoided editing fail) there's always someone/s who steps up to defend Catalyst because "they are small and poor" (that's what their defense always boils down to).

Which is just so much malarkey.

If Catalyst wanted to they could get this right, or very close to it, first time.
After observing them for the past 4 years it's pretty clear they just don't manage the process. Management is awol, providing little to no oversight.
This is clear from their poor / non existent customer service, poor editing, lack of errata and generous copy-pasta from 4ed.
This conclusion is reinforced by the embezzlement/ whatever scandal a few years back that was clearly due to lack of managerial oversight for a long time that allowed it to grow to a size that almost drove Catalyst into bankruptcy.

This is not a well-run company.

As a manager of my own small, resource constrained business I would have looked at the issues and tasked the team to refocus priorities on fixing the broken process and remove everything else from their plate until they got it right.

That would mean no opportunities to distract the line editor from his main job (for example the two (or more?) Srun novels he's written that take his time away from his main responsibilities) etc.

That Catalyst hasn't taken the time to do this speaks volumes.

Frankly I've given up on Catalyst producing a good quality product and placing my hopes in the errata process.

I'm hoping that we can triage 5e into a well-errata'd game system over time and I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

Here's to the future of a player-driven 5e.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (12:46:47/08-08-16)
First off Patrick I was not insulting you I was responding to a post I did not take your job in to account because I do not know you and do not assume one way or another.  Also I was agreeing with you about the timing on reprints, I only point out their they failed to completely follow thru with the job.  I did not direct any insult to you so please do not attack me as I did not attack you. 

Second thing whether this is an  aberration or not it is just another sign of the total lack business ethics  that Catalyst is showing their loyal customers. like adzling I'm in management also, not with my own company but in bring other companies products in to sell and if I was getting the complaints that are showing up here on the forums from my customers I would looking for a comparable product to replace what I'm getting complaints about.

My point is this does not only hurt Catalyst but it hurts the Local FLG's that get either stuck with books they can not sell because they are so riddle with errors and no fixes or have to deal with customers who in this case got an none errata  reprint when they expected an errata one.

I respect you Freelancers your the only reason we are getting what great stuff we are getting and from what I've seen your getting little or no help/direction from Catalyst about rules or other maters which makes the jems you have given us all that more impressive.
 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on (16:41:58/08-08-16)
I'm sure there are reasons why quality control and editing is so bad.  There have to be, right? 

But just because there are reasons, does not make the quality excusable. 

I cannot think of an instance of an RPG publisher so consistently messing up basic info, making horrible layout decisions, and even when intending to release a new edition with errata apparently sending the wrong version to the printer.  That includes going back to the '80's when people didn't have the fancy version controls they do now.  Sure, there were mistakes.  But it wasn't whole book riddled with mistakes.  It wasn't every new sourcebook that came out consistently having major issues. 

These are the sort of mistakes that after they catch you one time, I'd expect someone to take extra care to make fix it next time.  That obviously hasn't happened. 

It's not even a matter of skill and experience, someone doesn't care enough. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: MijRai on (01:58:49/08-09-16)
Something I haven't pointed out in a while is the fact that I've been in an writing/editing role before; first-hand, practical training and experience on lay-out, grammar, etc.  Were I putting out products with Shadowrun's editing quality as a first draft (much less higher up), I would have been reamed.  If I'd been proof-reading and editing such a product and let it pass my inspection to the next level at the current quality, it'd have been even worse. 

This is why I really can't accept the way things have been going down.  At some point, the work isn't being done.  There aren't any excuses, because said excuses have to involve 'I'm not doing my job because of _____.'  And if people aren't doing their jobs, there's a problem.  It has to be done correctly.  Whether it takes redoubled effort from those currently doing it or getting new people on the job, something has to happen.  The Errata team should be a good measure to treat the existing wounds, but it'll take more than that to keep the game from bleeding out from continued mistakes. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (07:00:46/08-09-16)
Something I do not want to say but CGL has to consider this.   What they has been doing can be consider to be damaging the brand name.  Why does this matter because TOP can break their license on these grounds.  Why would they well if some other company wants the license at similar terms with maybe a good down payment or just if TOP decides it can do better and make more of the profits.  And depending on the license CLG could lose everything they have written.    I’m not saying this is going to happen but CGL should think about this as part of their encouragement to do a better job. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: adzling on (14:01:00/08-09-16)
Mij rai's comments are on point IMHO.

Something needs to change at the top to ensure the future success of Srun.

It's very disconcerting it's gone on so long and has not been addressed which makes me thnk folks have their heads in the sand.

This stuff is not difficult, it just takes dedication and some modicum of resources/time be dedicated to it by someone who knows what they are doing.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (15:59:55/08-09-16)
All this talking got me digging out some of my 3rd edition books and man the differents is night and day
Examples
Rigger's 3 revised  just short of 200 pgs with only about 50 pgs of vehicle discriptions the Atchule Rigger rules
Rigger's 5 the reverse 50pgs rules 150 pgs vehicle
I don't even know how to compare data trails to Matrix but I can say that Data Trails is a fail
So what am I getting at is if we can't get what we really want in the books we should at the very least have good quality in the books we are getting
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on (17:31:04/08-10-16)
So thinking on it a bit, I've seen fan projects, open source volunteer projects that have better version control.  9th age (what the warhammer players did when GW blew up Fantasy) comes to mind. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: bull30548 on (02:06:39/08-13-16)
You know I don't post on here too much anymore it really not worth it anymore.  People just want to rail and complain about things.  Now in this case is the complaint valid? Yes, so continue on with the railing if you need to.  However, I do not see the seeking of knowledge simply just outrage.  So perhaps it is better instead of yelling into the vast blackhole that is the internet, I wish to try another approach.

AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Patrick: Perhaps you can expand on what it is you are working on in the errata section to help explain why this is a slow process in getting these fixes faster?

Everyone else: As I said if you feel like complaining about this product reprint that is your right.  However, I am pretty sure every point has been made that there is seriously something wrong in this reprint.

I actually was very amused by people saying, "Well, this could be better," or "why was this missed?" and my favorite so far is "the fan sites can/are doing it better!".  I always get amused by this because the fan sites usually 'playtest' their rules within whatever website, forum board, or actual play they may be running it through.  If game balance is achieved, hooray, if not the rule is quickly amended or even deleted from the site never to be seen again in that format.    There is also the fact that a new book could come out that completely takes what that fan site has developed and completely turns it on its head because the developer being a few months ahead as far as rules development actually has an idea of how those rules will interact with later rules.  The other thing that often happens with these fan sites is they fade from memory.  They become obsolete and unused, a great example is a website a friend of mine developed for a game system to help new players get oriented.  I think he last updated it in 2002 when the last book came out and the company folded up to rebrand as something else.  That was 14 years ago website still there getting a little traffic in fact it getting a lot with a recent reprint being done by the rebrand company but it isn't where it was.  Why? The company fixed some of the errors helped people out with a better introduction to the game.  Mind you I still like the fan sites too and I go over and I play by their rules then I come back to the written rules, problems and all, because I am a decent GM and fan.  In fact, I can tell all those on here are too because of the posts being so heated.  You are passionate about SR, which is wonderful,  I hope people keep enjoying it for many years.

Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (07:53:13/08-13-16)
AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Gladly.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: MijRai on (14:09:45/08-13-16)
Bull, the reason the Errata process is going to be slow to start is because it only just started quite recently.  There was no coordinated Errata process I know of until Patrick volunteered to do so in the last month or so, and he's had to build the apparatus for it.  We've started working on the Errata, and hopefully we can churn things out at a regular pace.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: bull30548 on (23:54:24/08-13-16)
Well, I was talking about the reprint process and how it seems like everyone is upset that the errata that is currently known did not make it into said reprint.  I appreciate the information but I was already aware of that because I listen to podcasts and do pay attention on here I just don't post often.  I was merely trying to get some answers to the questions, that as far as I could tell, no one simply asked.  AJ has answered he is looking into it and I am satisfied with that answer.  To be perfectly honest considering that GenCon was literally wrapping up a week ago.  I am not expecting anything for a few more weeks.  I will point out that I do not remember seeing any original print copies of Street Grimoire at Gen Con in any of the shops but I wasn't looking that hard so even a normal reprint makes sense since this book was, if I remember right, the first supplement to come out only a few months after the hardback copy of SR5 had came out.  In fact I remember purchasing it as well as Street Grimoire at my local convention.  Anyway thank you AJ I will patiently await the response.  And MijRai and Patrick please take your time I prefer good thorough work and am understanding that such things take a great deal of time.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (10:49:18/08-14-16)
Oh, that. For me, that's easy: I wasn't involved at the time. I didn't know there was going to even be a reprint until about the same time you guys did.

There were, apparently, more errata gathered from somewhere that were folded in (I think Wakshaani and ... Nightmare? Nightshade? Nightsomethingorother, he's contacted me but my brain's all mushy right now ... gathered the new stuff); I'm working on getting hold of that and getting the existing errata sheet updated. Onve that's done, while there's nothing I can do about the physical printing, I will be pushing to get all the errata folded in and a corrected PDF out into the wild ASAP.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (12:00:38/08-14-16)
[Street Grimoire] was, if I remember right, the first supplement to come out only a few months after the hardback copy of SR5 had came out.
Not quite. SR5 was released on 2013-09-25, and the first core supplement to be released was Run & Gun on 2014-04-09. Street Grimoire was the second core supplement, and it was released on 2014-06-30.

Books released before Street Grimoire include Assassin's Primer, Coyotes, Gun H(e)aven 3, Runner's Toolkit, Stolen Souls, Bullet's and Bandages, and various adventures (Splintered State, SRM05-01 and -02).
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (20:13:06/08-14-16)
AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Gladly.

Appreciate it, AJ.  I think a lot of us are just frustrated with how this sort of thing keeps happening, so some idea on why would help a lot.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (22:12:56/08-14-16)
As soon as I get some more info, I'll be sure to pass it along.

However, I think it's worth pointing out this *this* doesn't happen very often...at least as far as I can remember. There was the reprint issue with the core rule book, but that was a conscious business decision based on getting tit reprinted as quickly as possible. When the third printing came out, the edits and changes were there.

I know that there have been issues related to proofing, editing, etc., but they're not the same (IMHO).

Again, as soon as I have more info, I'll pass it along.

Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (22:49:39/08-14-16)
However, I think it's worth pointing out this *this* doesn't happen very often...at least as far as I can remember. There was the reprint issue with the core rule book, but that was a conscious business decision based on getting tit reprinted as quickly as possible. When the third printing came out, the edits and changes were there.

I think what was most frustrating about that whole debacle is that many of the community had been pointing out errors in need of errata from the time the PDF version of the rules got in our hot little hands in July of 2013.  To the tune of something like four pages by the time the first printing even hit store shelves in September.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Dinendae on (01:58:27/08-15-16)
Well, I was talking about the reprint process and how it seems like everyone is upset that the errata that is currently known did not make it into said reprint. ...   I will point out that I do not remember seeing any original print copies of Street Grimoire at Gen Con in any of the shops but I wasn't looking that hard so even a normal reprint makes sense since this book was, if I remember right, the first supplement to come out only a few months after the hardback copy of SR5 had came out.  ...


Just a comment on the parts I took out of the post:


I don't think it would nearly have been this big of an issue, if they had just reprinted the original book, as it was. I used to work in a game store, I get it: Stock of an item runs low, and you know (or even think) that you'll be needing more so you order more. But that's not quite what they did here. Word had been passed down that errata was going to be incorporated into the new print. For whatever reason it didn't make it for the this printing, OK, fine. However they didn't just reprint the original book, they went ahead and changed the cover art.


Originally I had been planning on getting the reprint of this book, so that I could have the updated rules in book form (and hey, help support Shadowrun as well). I would have been pissed to buy it and find out that the only change had been different art on the cover. They should have just reprinted the book as it was, entirely, to refill needed stock, and not changed the cover until things inside had been changed as well. If the printer is playing games with the company, as has been earlier put forth as a possible reason, then Catalyst should say so. If they gave the updated file to the printer, and the printer dropped the ball, then Catalyst should say so.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Sir_Prometheus on (11:19:08/08-18-16)
They clearly intended to have errata in the reprint.  To mess that up is a fairly epic fail. 

I doubt it was the printer, just because printers who mess up like that go out of business.  Also, the .pdf is messed up too. On the other hand, Catalyst has messed up like this a lot. 

Get it together guys. 
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (08:38:04/08-21-16)
I found out that the core book been out of print for about 4 months now that not a good sign in any way
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (10:34:40/08-21-16)
There is, apparently, new errata in the SG reprint that was gathered before I got the errata gig; the 2014 corrections were left out, though I'm not sure why or what happened there. I'm working on getting hold of those changes and getting them posted.

As for the core rulebook being "out of print": Much more common, industry-wide, than you apparently believe, since you appear to be confusing "out of stock" (there's no more, or almost so, in the warehouse) with "out of print" (it's probably OOS, and they are no longer ordering reprints). OOS isn't a big deal; it happens a lot because the distribution channel buys it by the pallet-load. The SR5 core book has never been OOP; the SR4A core book is, however.

Doom-saying helps no one, Tytalan. Please do us all a favor and knock it off.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (01:29:43/08-22-16)
Urgh. That makes me even more leery, Patrick.  If none of the errata got in, I could totally see it being an error on the printers' end involving just using an old set of proofs.

Some changes means that whatever was sent didn't include the corrections.   :'(
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (16:46:19/08-25-16)
According to 3 different store owners in this area one them runs his own game company they are not being told by the dist's that the book is out of stock but that it is out of print.  and Diamond Dist.  says it reorder from CGL's is by weekly so and Out of Stock would only last at the most 3 weeks and its been 4 months.  So either it is out of print or CGL is not selling it to the big 2 Gamming  dist's .  I know the different between Out of Stock and Out of Print dealing with Dist's is a part  of my job
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (16:51:26/08-25-16)
Urgh. That makes me even more leery, Patrick.  If none of the errata got in, I could totally see it being an error on the printers' end involving just using an old set of proofs.

Some changes means that whatever was sent didn't include the corrections.   :'(

Does not work that way the printers always send a proof for review before doing the complete run and it is up to CGL to approve or not if the printer does not print the approved proof but in stead use say an older one then CGL could make them swallow it and reprint they did not do that which strongly indicate that it was their mistake.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Beta on (17:11:47/08-25-16)
According to 3 different store owners in this area one them runs his own game company they are not being told by the dist's that the book is out of stock but that it is out of print.  and Diamond Dist.  says it reorder from CGL's is by weekly so and Out of Stock would only last at the most 3 weeks and its been 4 months.  So either it is out of print or CGL is not selling it to the big 2 Gamming  dist's .  I know the different between Out of Stock and Out of Print dealing with Dist's is a part  of my job

And yet, I bought one of the new soft-cover copies last month, at a game store. 

I wonder if the soft-cover printing got a different 'part number' (whatever you call it in the book/game business), so that it was clear whether one is ordering the hard cover or soft cover.  I am willing to believe that the hard-cover is out of print, but the new printing with soft-cover very clearly exists.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: The Tekwych on (17:27:05/08-25-16)
Diamond does not distribute anything from CGL. Distribution of CGL product is through Alaince first and foremost. Diamond can, and does, buy from Alaince and then add a further markup to retailers that use them.

A HUGE downside to the FLGS is that, to carry the basic games and systems, you will need to deal with at least 4 different distributors, plus WoTC and Games Worksop at a minimum. Siz sets of monthly orders and six invoices and six payments and six packing slips to cover and keep strait. It is a very demanding job with little financial payback
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (01:09:28/08-26-16)
Urgh. That makes me even more leery, Patrick.  If none of the errata got in, I could totally see it being an error on the printers' end involving just using an old set of proofs.

Some changes means that whatever was sent didn't include the corrections.   :'(

Does not work that way the printers always send a proof for review before doing the complete run and it is up to CGL to approve or not if the printer does not print the approved proof but in stead use say an older one then CGL could make them swallow it and reprint they did not do that which strongly indicate that it was their mistake.

Given what we know of CGL's editorial process, I could entirely see them getting a printing proof and it getting signed off on without anyone thinking to check if all the errata were in it.  God knows we've gotten deprecated playtests in printed sourcebooks before.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: tytalan on (13:11:03/08-26-16)
Urgh. That makes me even more leery, Patrick.  If none of the errata got in, I could totally see it being an error on the printers' end involving just using an old set of proofs.

Some changes means that whatever was sent didn't include the corrections.   :'(

Does not work that way the printers always send a proof for review before doing the complete run and it is up to CGL to approve or not if the printer does not print the approved proof but in stead use say an older one then CGL could make them swallow it and reprint they did not do that which strongly indicate that it was their mistake.

Given what we know of CGL's editorial process, I could entirely see them getting a printing proof and it getting signed off on without anyone thinking to check if all the errata were in it.  God knows we've gotten deprecated playtests in printed sourcebooks before.

The problem with that is the PDF on drive thru games is also not fixed now blame that on the printers
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: wraith on (01:47:42/08-28-16)
As soon as I get some more info, I'll be sure to pass it along.

However, I think it's worth pointing out this *this* doesn't happen very often...at least as far as I can remember. There was the reprint issue with the core rule book, but that was a conscious business decision based on getting tit reprinted as quickly as possible. When the third printing came out, the edits and changes were there.

I know that there have been issues related to proofing, editing, etc., but they're not the same (IMHO).

Again, as soon as I have more info, I'll pass it along.

Hey AJ, two weeks down the line, any news to share?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (12:59:55/08-28-16)
Sorry guys, nothing yet.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: TonyK on (17:44:19/09-13-16)
BTW, noticed that there appears to be an update, dated today, to the PDF Street Grimoire on DriveThru.  Anyone knows what's changed on this iteration?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: AJCarrington on (12:36:36/09-14-16)
The updated PDF should be hitting this week, so good chance it should included the errata.
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (12:31:14/11-09-16)
News here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17166.msg472430#msg472430).
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (12:32:07/03-12-17)
Necromancing the thread.

Could someone who got the second printing on DriveThru tell me if page 169 has the adept power Authoritative Tone?
Title: Re: [SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?
Post by: Slagheap on (13:11:21/03-12-17)
Patrick, Authoritative Tone did make the 2nd printing.