Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: 忍 on (01:14:51/04-27-16)

Title: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (01:14:51/04-27-16)
Any ideas for our sometimes armored friends from another forest?
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: MijRai on (01:50:47/04-27-16)
Well, getting metahuman armor isn't hard, and getting critter armor shouldn't be too hard.  Making armor that shapeshifts between forms?  I would rule it impossible for the 6th World.  Maybe later on if a shapeshifter player expressed a distinct interest, I'd introduce some ancient 4th Age piece that can do it, but not currently. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Jack_Spade on (03:03:38/04-27-16)
The armored bag from R&G would be your best solution. It's not stylish but it fits everyone as long as they have a head and four appendages and are within the range of meta-human size.

If you have the fashion spell, you might even be able to make it fit better.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (10:49:56/04-27-16)
Jack beat me to it.  Also, since most bags will have multiple pockets you can keep a spare change of clothes, baby wipes, deodorant, and breath mints handy.  Breath mints especially for a biter, 'cause, 'ew. 

But yeah, for 'shifters or mages using the shapeshift spell that bag solves a lot of stupid little logistical problems. 

Tack on Gear Access for extra lulz. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (21:51:08/04-27-16)
What about some creative interpretation of YNT softweave armor? Maybe x3• instead?
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (21:57:47/04-27-16)
Softweave increases the amount of stuff you can put in your Armor.  Does nothing for turning Jackets into Barding (or whatever).  Firmly into houserule territory. 

Not that Armor on a Tiger (or Horse, or Dog) is particularly difficult.  Just not RAW is all.  The Bag is about it for RAW solutions, everything else is up to your GM.

But get the bag too.  Seriously, breath mints, real life savers. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (22:49:32/04-27-16)
[quote author 84pg]SoftWeave was developed by Yamatetsu Naval Technologies for sapients and the less common metavarients because itís easier to mold and work into alternative designs than standard armor technologies.[/quote]
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (00:15:22/04-28-16)
I'd just double list price and let you get animal armor.  Then you get an armored jacket for when you're a human and a suit of heavy hardened milspec battle armor with matching helmet for when you're a magical housecat shooting death lasers out of your eyes.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: MijRai on (01:58:13/04-28-16)
Softweave doesn't make it shapeshift; it just makes a lighter, more flexible material.  I'd also not allow the armor-bag to work interchangeably, because you'd need to move the openings to actually fit the critter's form in order for it to work. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Jack_Spade on (04:52:53/04-28-16)
That shouldn't be a problem. Just add a few additional zippers so you can get your tail out or whatever else you need to stick out.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: ScytheKnight on (07:51:22/04-28-16)
Softweave doesn't make it shapeshift; it just makes a lighter, more flexible material.  I'd also not allow the armor-bag to work interchangeably, because you'd need to move the openings to actually fit the critter's form in order for it to work.

I think everyone's past that to "OK, we can't make armor that will change, so how the heck to we mark armor for animal forms?"
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (09:51:51/04-28-16)
Other than custom fit I can't seem to find anywhere that limits the body types that can don armor.

How do we justify pixie armor?

Armored vests for animals must exist; I should think them standard on security hellhounds.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: adzling on (10:15:50/04-28-16)
And I can't find anywhere where it says that an Panther Assault Cannon cannot be wielded by a Pixie while flying...

Sometimes you have to insert common sense, if you don't have any then YMMV.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (10:18:49/04-28-16)
Common sense says if you size armor for a bear, that armor can fit a bear. Less common, sure, but not less reasonable.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: adzling on (10:53:04/04-28-16)
I agree that armor could be made to fit an animal.

However that was not the question, the question was "is it available off the shelf".

And I think the answer to that would be "no" excepting some common animals that would tolerate light armor, such as the Hellhound suggestion (custom armor vest?).

However that is not the same as "I want to put an armored jacket i bought at the store on my bear friend, the rules don't say I cant' so therefore I can!".
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: PiXeL01 on (03:29:41/05-01-16)
Well, while it is not RAW if the shapeshifter is magically active beyond simply as a shifter I wouldn't bar something armored like an armor jacket that shifts with the critter coming out of the depths of Old Siberia that a magic user can bind to.
They are the shifter nation, right?
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (08:47:39/05-01-16)
Armor that shifts with a player could theoretically be made.  Some sort of Spandex/Kevlar body suit with Armored plates on the chest, outer thighs, arms, ect.  How expensive and how effective are pure houserules.  As would be armor for an Animal form.

RAW, you're got the bag for most forms.  Although especially large or small animal forms even that probably doesn't work.

I think Armor should be available for animals, but you've got to make your own stats for the most part.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Jack_Spade on (09:08:36/05-01-16)
Spandex and Kevlar are pretty much mutually exclusive. Kevlar works by resisting stretching/ripping.

Nanotech would be your best bet, like the Altskin Armor from Chrome Flesh p. 153.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (11:07:43/05-01-16)
How expensive and how effective are pure houserules.  As would be armor for an Animal form.

RAW, you're got the bag for most forms.  Although especially large or small animal forms even that probably doesn't work.
Actually, looking at the rules, saying there's any sort of problem is the house rule. There are no listed limitations on armor fitting. Even disallowing a troll from wearing a dwarf's armored vest is a house rule as nothing in the rules mentions such a restriction. I believe it perfectly logical to disallow the troll from wearing the dwarf's vest, of course, but the logical thing is still the house rule.

Likewise, RAW does not limit fitting armor to forms. By RAW, the cost, availability, and effectiveness of armor for when you turn into a rhino is the same as list value for humans. Maybe you need to go through different channels, or get it custom made, but it's there.  Maybe that'll change with the critter book, maybe not.

Now, if you want to go into the realm of book armor being unavailable to animals, or being more expensive, or less effective, or being limited to a bag, or less available, that's your call and it's between you and your table, but that is the realm of house rules.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (17:06:59/05-01-16)
How expensive and how effective are pure houserules.  As would be armor for an Animal form.

RAW, you're got the bag for most forms.  Although especially large or small animal forms even that probably doesn't work.
Actually, looking at the rules, saying there's any sort of problem is the house rule. There are no listed limitations on armor fitting. Even disallowing a troll from wearing a dwarf's armored vest is a house rule as nothing in the rules mentions such a restriction. I believe it perfectly logical to disallow the troll from wearing the dwarf's vest, of course, but the logical thing is still the house rule.

Likewise, RAW does not limit fitting armor to forms. By RAW, the cost, availability, and effectiveness of armor for when you turn into a rhino is the same as list value for humans. Maybe you need to go through different channels, or get it custom made, but it's there.  Maybe that'll change with the critter book, maybe not.

Now, if you want to go into the realm of book armor being unavailable to animals, or being more expensive, or less effective, or being limited to a bag, or less available, that's your call and it's between you and your table, but that is the realm of house rules.

Fair point.  Off I go to put a suit of Ares Big Game Hunter on my Harley.  RAW doesn't ban Motorcycles from wearing Armor either.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (18:00:23/05-01-16)
Spandex and Kevlar are pretty much mutually exclusive. Kevlar works by resisting stretching/ripping.

Nanotech would be your best bet, like the Altskin Armor from Chrome Flesh p. 153.

I was thinking of whatever material that the Urban Explorer jump suit is made from.  That is all stretchy and bulletproof. 

It has to be no more than a days work to knock together something stretchy that can cover a Metahuman and a roughly metahuman sized Animal.  Then stick a few mock armor plates on it.  Let 'em shift back and forth a few times and make adjustments.  Bang out the real thing as a one-off custom suit.  Expensive as you'd need a day or seven of work from a decent armorer.  Plus materials.  But it certainly seems possible for some shifters.

Falcon, Equine and the like seem a bit unlikely coming from a regular human sized Meta type.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (18:49:04/05-01-16)
Fair point.  Off I go to put a suit of Ares Big Game Hunter on my Harley.  RAW doesn't ban Motorcycles from wearing Armor either.
You can interpret the rules that way, and if I'm GMing, I have absolutely no problem saying no and openly admitting it's a house rule.  Just like my prior mention that I'd likely double the base price is a houserule.  I might also up the availability, and I'd most likely make it take longer and be a custom job to get it, which are also houserules.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Achsin on (18:20:00/05-02-16)
Any thoughts on how well an armored cloak would work for not having to worry about getting in/out of armor when changing forms? The armor value isn't great but it might work to give at least something and mitigate the "where's my pants" factor.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (18:23:26/05-02-16)
Certainly better than nothing,  Though you'd probably need a teammate to retie it once you turn into an animal, and if you go too much bigger or smaller, it probably wouldn't help.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Achsin on (18:29:35/05-02-16)
If you are shifting to a larger form I can see being able to loosen it to the right size before you shift and then tightening it up again when you come back. Shifting to a smaller size would be harder without help (unless it could auto-adjust somehow).
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (11:46:04/05-03-16)
If you are shifting to a larger form I can see being able to loosen it to the right size before you shift and then tightening it up again when you come back. Shifting to a smaller size would be harder without help (unless it could auto-adjust somehow).
Like some certain future shoe laces?? ;)
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (06:59:55/07-23-16)
"Clear!"

*Applies Paddles to Thread*

Okay so just got Howling Shadows and was skimming the Drake Rules from p. 165

"Shifting into dracoform causes a certain degree of
body growth, not to mention the appearance of a tail
and sometimes wings. This can play havoc with clothing
and armor. Some drakes opt for less restrictive clothing
while others have their clothing specially tailored with
magnetic flps and size-adjusting gusseting. Such adjustments increase the cost of the armor or clothing by
10%. "

Seems to me that as long as your Animal and Metahuman forms are similar in Mass you're good to go here, subject to GM approval. 

Bear to Troll.  Wolf to Human.  Tiger to Gnome.  Okay maybe not Tiger to Gnome.  But Dog to Gnome. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Mirikon on (15:05:36/07-23-16)
Remember, though, that Drakes are still roughly humanoid in shape in their dracoform. Armor designed for humanoids tends to focus on the chest and back, because those are the largest parts of the body most open to getting shot. When you are dealing with any quadruped, though, the most vulnerable parts are on the sides, and the arrangement of limbs is different. And when you get into other animals, such as birds, serpents, or anything aquatic...

So while a Western Drake may be able to get their lined coat to work with their dracoform, a wolf shifter would find a lined coat cumbersome, at best.

Now, you CAN make armor for their shifted form (they have armor for K9 dogs, after all), but that's another kettle of fish.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (20:25:05/07-23-16)
Again, up to the GM, but you're sprouting Wings, a Tail, Armored Scales, and putting on some undefined amount of mass.  If these changes can be accommodated I'm not sure why Man to Wolf or Troll to Bear would be so incredibly different.  YMMV though. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (21:54:16/07-23-16)
"Clear!"

*Applies Paddles to Thread*
Haha +1

You could easily just make either people-armor or pet armor at 20% for awkward forms and reduce the armor rating when shifted for some balance.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Mirikon on (01:46:00/07-24-16)
Again, up to the GM, but you're sprouting Wings, a Tail, Armored Scales, and putting on some undefined amount of mass.  If these changes can be accommodated I'm not sure why Man to Wolf or Troll to Bear would be so incredibly different.  YMMV though.
All right, I'll lay it out with a simple example. Take urban explorer gear, which is basically an armored jumpsuit. You really just need some expansion zones to cover the increased mass (including scales) and holes in the back that the wings and tail poke through when you grow them. The arrangement of the head, arms, legs, and so on are the same, you're just making it so that things poke through and expand. But that isn't what's happening when you go from Human to Wolf, for instance. The tail isn't a problem, and changing size to go smaller is only a moderate problem (it is easier to have flaps that expand than to automatically 'take in' flaps to go smaller). The problem is the arrangement of limbs. The positioning of the head and legs is very different on a a wolf than it is on a human.

The same is true for, say, the Lined Coat. Converting this for a Drake is even easier than the Urban Explorer gear. Just have to make sure it  is either big enough to fit the new form, or can expand, and have the holes in the back for the wings. A split back, like you often see on trench coats and dusters to allow ease of movement will allow the tail through just fine. Done and done. But when you try and do that for a quadruped, the coat is going to be dragging the ground in all kinds of places, and you STILL haven't solved the issues caused by the different arrangement of limbs.

And then you have the issues of getting the protection in the right place, as I mentioned before. A human and a Western Drake both walk upright, have two arms, and two legs. The majority of their vitals are in their torso, and that is why most armor concentrates on the front and back of the torso. On a quadruped, the front and back of the torso are largely concealed, unless you're attacking from above or below, and the sides are more exposed. This means most armor for, say, concentrates on the sides of the body, rather than the chest and back. You can't just take a bulletproof vest designed for a human, and cut it down to dog size. Everything is different.

The only way you could solve all these problems is with high tech nano-materials, like with the Smart Blades. But absolutely no one is doing stuff like that right now thanks to the nanopocalypse.

So your best bet would be something like a helmet or ballistic mask that has straps which will allow it to stay on when you change, and then having your team help you into your wolf armor. Or use magic armor, either through spells or being an adept, since those would carry over in your other form.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Medicineman on (02:30:17/07-24-16)
or by getting an Armored Poncho (and giving it the same stats as Armored Coat).....
or getting an Armored Vest that only covers the Torso


with quite a simple Dance
Medicienman
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (12:23:10/07-24-16)
Howling Shadows seems to have settled this pretty definitively with barding.

Animal armor is custom made for an animal of that size, and can't exceed the animal's body rating without imposing penalties.

That seems pretty reasonable to me.  Turning around and making puppy armored jackets at armor 12 when the barding would only be 4 seems to throw away the basic ideas of that animal armor.

As hilarious as it would be to cyber up a behemoth or a juggernaut and put it in heavy milspec battle armor.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Mirikon on (12:32:11/07-24-16)
Medicineman, with the poncho you'd still run into the same problems due to the fact that any poncho long enough to protect a shifter's vitals while they are in metahuman form would be constantly underfoot when they are in animal form. Especially with armor plates weighing the thing down. And any poncho designed for the animal form wouldn't protect for shit in their human form.

And armor vests cover the front and back of the torso, with little to nothing on the sides, since they use armor plates to help block bullets. Put a vest designed fro a human on a dog, and not only would it fit horribly due to the placement and alignment of limbs/head, but the plates would be protecting their belly and back, not the sides, which are most vulnerable for a dog.

As I said, there are some pretty clear physical challenges involved, which just can't be overcome without nanomaterials or some similar uber-tech.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Medicineman on (12:44:42/07-24-16)
Medicineman, with the poncho you'd still run into the same problems due to the fact that any poncho long enough to protect a shifter's vitals while they are in metahuman form would be constantly underfoot when they are in animal form. Especially with armor plates weighing the thing down. And any poncho designed for the animal form wouldn't protect for shit in their human form.

And armor vests cover the front and back of the torso, with little to nothing on the sides, since they use armor plates to help block bullets. Put a vest designed fro a human on a dog, and not only would it fit horribly due to the placement and alignment of limbs/head, but the plates would be protecting their belly and back, not the sides, which are most vulnerable for a dog.

....

Which is totally irrelevant because SR has no Hit Location Per Se (apart from aimed Shots in Run & Gun which is a separate Issue)
So it doesn't matter at all if a Vest protects the side or not ....Not by RAW

If you want to restrict the Armor unneccessarily better not use any at all
better make the Shifter an Adept/mystical Adept with Combat sense and heightened REA and INT so he doesn't get hit at all.
If his Dodgepool ist 30+ it doesn't matter if he wears armor or not

HougH!
Medicineman
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Blue Rose on (13:53:18/07-24-16)
Which is totally irrelevant because SR has no Hit Location Per Se (apart from aimed Shots in Run & Gun which is a separate Issue)
So it doesn't matter at all if a Vest protects the side or not ....Not by RAW
It's not relevant to the mechanics, but it is relevant to the world and affects whether the object makes sense as a thing that physically makes sense in the world.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (22:11:25/07-26-16)
Again, up to the GM, but you're sprouting Wings, a Tail, Armored Scales, and putting on some undefined amount of mass.  If these changes can be accommodated I'm not sure why Man to Wolf or Troll to Bear would be so incredibly different.  YMMV though.
All right, I'll lay it out with a simple example. Take urban explorer gear, which is basically an armored jumpsuit. You really just need some expansion zones to cover the increased mass (including scales) and holes in the back that the wings and tail poke through when you grow them. The arrangement of the head, arms, legs, and so on are the same, you're just making it so that things poke through and expand. But that isn't what's happening when you go from Human to Wolf, for instance. The tail isn't a problem, and changing size to go smaller is only a moderate problem (it is easier to have flaps that expand than to automatically 'take in' flaps to go smaller). The problem is the arrangement of limbs. The positioning of the head and legs is very different on a a wolf than it is on a human.

The same is true for, say, the Lined Coat. Converting this for a Drake is even easier than the Urban Explorer gear. Just have to make sure it  is either big enough to fit the new form, or can expand, and have the holes in the back for the wings. A split back, like you often see on trench coats and dusters to allow ease of movement will allow the tail through just fine. Done and done. But when you try and do that for a quadruped, the coat is going to be dragging the ground in all kinds of places, and you STILL haven't solved the issues caused by the different arrangement of limbs.

And then you have the issues of getting the protection in the right place, as I mentioned before. A human and a Western Drake both walk upright, have two arms, and two legs. The majority of their vitals are in their torso, and that is why most armor concentrates on the front and back of the torso. On a quadruped, the front and back of the torso are largely concealed, unless you're attacking from above or below, and the sides are more exposed. This means most armor for, say, concentrates on the sides of the body, rather than the chest and back. You can't just take a bulletproof vest designed for a human, and cut it down to dog size. Everything is different.

The only way you could solve all these problems is with high tech nano-materials, like with the Smart Blades. But absolutely no one is doing stuff like that right now thanks to the nanopocalypse.

So your best bet would be something like a helmet or ballistic mask that has straps which will allow it to stay on when you change, and then having your team help you into your wolf armor. Or use magic armor, either through spells or being an adept, since those would carry over in your other form.

I've put toddler clothes on my cat no problem.  Large jacket on a wolf, Poncho on a bear, Trenchcoat on a Tiger...  or go at it from the other way Barding to Biped armor.  If you can build armor that can stretch to accommodate a plus sized Winged Lizardman and a "normal" person I really don't know why you can't come up with a Poncho or Jacket that fits People and Wolfs.  Pretty sure I own a Jacket or three that would fit me and a large range of canines. 
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Adamo1618 on (11:49:19/07-27-16)
Different limb placement can be achieved by expanding and contracting the right areas. If armor can adjust to Dracoform, it can adjust to being a quadruped.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Mirikon on (00:18:57/07-30-16)
Different limb placement can be achieved by expanding and contracting the right areas. If armor can adjust to Dracoform, it can adjust to being a quadruped.
As a theater brat and son of a costumer, I can tell you that expanding is easy. A few snaps, or velcro, or similar fastener, and an extra piece of fabric will allow the garment to expand without much issue. Contracting isn't so easy. What I described would be basically a manual reset kind of thing once you returned to your metahuman form. It would expand automatically with your shift, but then you'd have to spend a couple rounds fastening velcro back in places once you shifted back.

Automatic contraction with fabrics is going to be very problematic. Honestly, it would be easier to build that kind of function into something like milspec armor, which is already almost like an exoskeleton, and has a lot of moving parts. For fabric, unless you're talking about nanomaterials, some kind of rare magic garment that shifts with you, or something like that, then you're not going to be able to auto-contract. You COULD have it so someone could snap/velcro up the slots for you once you changed, and then it would shift back to normal when you turned human, but it would be problematic in combat, to say the least.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (13:42:51/07-30-16)
If Expansion is easy and contraction is hard, start with Armor for the smaller form and modify to fit the larger form. 

Or if Expansion and Contraction are simply a matter of how many straps and buttons you need to fiddle with make it automatic for whatever conversion is the "Emergency" mode.  i.e. if you're an Elf / Panthrine and the Panthrine is the combat mode make the armor so that it shifts automatically from Elf to Panthrine for Combat stuff.  Then when you shift back to Elf you've got time (and hands) to fiddle with stuff usually.

And keep in mind spending a tiny bit of time adjusting straps and snaps isn't a big deal.  Shifting isn't typically done "in combat" anyway due to the nature of 5th edition combat.  (Typically over in a single round, takes actions to change forms so you likely only get one action before the fight is over).  Likely a player is in one form or the other depending on what they're doing.  Social stuff and legwork phase, probably in two-leg mode.  Sneaky-fighty time, probably in four-legged mode.  When the rest of the team is pulling out shotguns and putting on Helmets and PPP kits, you're doing your thing too. 

And obviously the "Barding" rules from Howling Shadows gives a Player with time and teamates a viable "battle mode" option as well.

Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Bull on (20:28:48/07-30-16)
Here's an answer no ones gonna like :)

I doubt Shapeshifters would want to wear armor in any form.  And especially not in critter form.

Shapers are not humans that can turn into animal form.  They're wild animals that happen to turn into human form.  They operate as much on instinct as they do intellect.  Not to say they're stupid or would act dumb, but they're going to follow their nature.  They don't think like humans do.

It's one of the reasons I don't really like them as PC options and discourage players from using them.  Because for most people, they're just People with a cool extra form.

I mean hell, if it wasn't for the fact that they';re smart enough to know they have to blend in?  Shapeshifters probably wouldn't even wear CLOTHES most of the time.

They will adapt.  But they're not going to like it, and they're going to be fighting their instincts every step of the way.

<shrug>

But, your game, be free.  But yeah.  Read Stryper sometime, if you get the chance.  Not one of the better SR novels, IMO, but a good look at the animalistic and almost alien nature of a shapeshifter compared to normal society.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (23:14:05/07-30-16)
They're wild animals . . .

They're all wild?

Quote from: Run Faster 103pg.
For example, canine shifters do not have the Uneducated quality because they live among people and learn right alongside them. Buying off this quality would require a similar story, such as a shifter who was a mascot at a college, or a trained ursine, tigrine, or falconine learning while their handlers are not looking.

I've got a shifter in my game, and he does frequently get naked though. I just wanted to discuss the possibility of armor because staying alive is good and stuff.  I figure that would eventually be a question that would pop up. "What's all of that? Why do you wear it? Can I have some?"
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Jack_Spade on (02:13:42/07-31-16)
@Bull
Shifters used to have Regeneration to compensate for that issue. Without it I'd guess every shifter who has been shot once will very quickly revise their stance, suppress their natural urges and try to get some armor. Learning through pain is very effective.... ::)
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (09:24:20/07-31-16)
@Bull
Shifters used to have Regeneration to compensate for that issue. Without it I'd guess every shifter who has been shot once will very quickly revise their stance, suppress their natural urges and try to get some armor. Learning through pain is very effective.... ::)

Yeah.  When getting your lungs ripped out was only a minor slow down, Armor didn't matter (okay slight exaggeration...).  5th Edition getting your Lungs ripped out is now really bad, combined with the fact that even regular street clothes have an armor rating. 

People don't like wearing body armor either.  It's heavy, it's hot, it's uncomfortable.  I would imagine Shifters being smart enough to realize that wearing armor when doing something dangerous is a good idea.  Just like wearing clothes to meet the Johnson is also a good idea.

I don't really have a problem with PC shifters in 5th edition because the cost/benefit is so poor it's being done for RP reasons.  I think letting the assorted combat forms have the basic tools to actually live through a firefight is a good idea.  Unless you're saying the Errata team is bringing Regen back for Shifters  8)  ?
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Senko on (09:17:33/08-20-16)
Yep I agree with that the shifters aren't human sure but they aren't dumb either. Its one thing to get home, dump the clothes, transform into a fox form and stretch out on the couch in comfort snapping up the occasional cockroach that gets too close as you ponder the complexities of the pretty patterns made by the sun on the floor for a few hours. Its something quite different to charge into combat without armour becuase its "human protection rubbish and rubs my fur wrong." For me any shifter who's been in combat (all established runners) is going to be aware that wearing armour no matter how unpleasant is a good survival choice.

As for armour changing forms I'm also inclined to agree that the difference in form and size (for some species) is going to make having armour shift with you is largely non-viable and your better off getting armour made for each form. Amoured clothes, lined coat, etc for human form and proper armour for your animal form. Although I can see some limited adjustment especially if your going smaller to large or have a friend to adjust it for you e.g. pull the clothing round so the plates that were front and back are now on the sides.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: firebug on (18:39:54/08-20-16)
Since shapeshifters should be developed characters, saying none of them would wear clothes or armor is...  Silly.  If you're playing one who's enough reason to be a PC, and do PC things, and isn't just "well I guess he's an animal and sometimes does human stuff" then why wouldn't they do things like wear armor?

If they can't or won't do something as basic as that, how can they possibly be playable?  They wouldn't be willing to establish human contacts through human methods.  They wouldn't be willing to go out of their way to be reachable, since why would they bother to use any human technology if armor and clothing goes against their animal instincts too much.  They would see no point in being paid in money or favors.  They'd have no reason to pay attention to human laws.  Why would they even take human form at all?

That's also unreasonable.  Monkeys and other similar animals use tools and even weapons.  You think they wouldn't wear protection in a fight if they knew how to make it fit their bodies?  Shifters are more intelligent than normal animals, regardless of their species.  Dogs have to be taught to wear clothing, yes, but that's not because it's "against their nature".  It's just an odd feeling they don't understand the reasoning for.  And they get used to it!  I've seen babies with the same kinda reaction, only they don't have the strength to just remove it.  A smarter dog, who could actually understand the legitimate reasoning behind the discomfort of armor could very quickly get used to it just like the lesser intelligent dogs can.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Achsin on (23:23:57/08-21-16)
My shapeshifter started out wearing only light armor/clothes in metahuman form because otherwise people tend to freak out, and no thought for armor in animal form because clothes are funny and armor is bulky. After being shot a few times though, armor actually started to make sense. I mean, even if you have Regeneration (which 5e shifters lack), it doesn't make getting shot any less painful.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Hobbes on (15:17:23/09-01-16)
@Bull
Shifters used to have Regeneration to compensate for that issue. Without it I'd guess every shifter who has been shot once will very quickly revise their stance, suppress their natural urges and try to get some armor. Learning through pain is very effective.... ::)

Yeah.  When getting your lungs ripped out was only a minor slow down, Armor didn't matter (okay slight exaggeration...).  5th Edition getting your Lungs ripped out is now really bad, combined with the fact that even regular street clothes have an armor rating. 

People don't like wearing body armor either.  It's heavy, it's hot, it's uncomfortable.  I would imagine Shifters being smart enough to realize that wearing armor when doing something dangerous is a good idea.  Just like wearing clothes to meet the Johnson is also a good idea.

I don't really have a problem with PC shifters in 5th edition because the cost/benefit is so poor it's being done for RP reasons.  I think letting the assorted combat forms have the basic tools to actually live through a firefight is a good idea.  Unless you're saying the Errata team is bringing Regen back for Shifters  8)  ?

*ahem* 

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24596.0

Woot, I say.  Back to Nekid shapeshifters!   :P
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: gilga on (00:24:25/09-03-16)
Well a mage or adept (with adept spell magic fingers) can just done critter armor themselves.
I'd definitely get access to magic fingers if I my character was to be in a gun fight in animal form.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (23:52:42/02-13-17)
After some discussion with some of my players, we came up with a homebrew option to address the issue. Similar in function to drake armor, this armor modification implements flaps and stretchy bits to adapt to the wearer's form. It has a capacity cost equal to the armor's rating divided by 3 rounded up. With more armor to move around the cost of the modification goes up as the armor rating does. This armor modification can only be applied to critter armor. The intent behind this restriction is to use the maximum armor rating for critters as a "abuse" cap.

Tell me what you think. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NPX_R_Rjmvs-HWOYUCdMgSeqebnQ8JW0wzwUSj1QOX0/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: firebug on (00:01:57/02-14-17)
Bit of thread necromancy; though this is your own thread so it's not so bad.  Without looking into your rule suggestion, did you catch that Patrick wrote provisional errata giving Shapeshifters Regeneration again in 5th edition?
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: on (01:06:02/02-14-17)
Oops. Forgot to add: /necro :(

Yes firebug, I am aware of the regen.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Kiirnodel on (01:40:57/02-14-17)
Seems like an alright solution. Having it function as armor that "defaults" to critter armor that has some modifications to allow it to be worn by a metahuman is probably a good way to go.

The only thing to consider is the sometimes drastic change in body mass for a a shifter. Consider a vulpine shifter for example, a human transforming into a creature the size of a fox is a pretty huge change. The same goes for the size change between human and horse for an equine shifter. These kind of changes aren't just going to just need small gussets and flaps to account for the huge change in size and anatomy.

The only thing with comparing it to drake armor is that apparently drakes are still "humanoid" in shape while in their dracoform? The description of the dracoform isn't clear, but the one piece of artwork they have features a humaoid reptilian thing. I always thought that Drakes looked like small dragons in their transformed state, but the description is exceedingly vague... In any case, if they are in fact still roughly human shaped, the ability to just have armor that "allows for the slight changes in size and shape" makes a certain amount of sense. And even if the dracoform is quadrupedal and dragon-shaped, it still isn't drastically different sized than their human body. It explicitly states that they are "human-sized dragons."

So yeah, the only concern for me for the realism of Shapeshifter armor would be that huge change in body size.
Title: Re: Shapeshifter Armor??
Post by: Tech on (21:48:12/07-26-17)
I'm pretty sure shapeshifting destroys your clothes/anything you're wearing