Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-07-16/0934:06>
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Since Rigger 5.0 was released and we now have actual rules for increasing armor on drones and vehicles, I decided to review how durable such vehicles are against common weaponry. The linked image shows the full, detailed results with a breakdown by weapon type, APDS and Explosive rounds, with 1 and 5 net hits, and using average (i.e. Body + Modified AV divided by 3) damage resist rolls.
For potential houserulers out there, I've also added columns to show what happens if you simply rule that vehicle armor is hardened armor. In other words, under this house rule vehicles would still take damage if the DV was less than modified AV, but their modified AV would count as Hardened. The results are, in my opinion, interesting to say the least.
Under the current system, drones are very, very fragile. 5 net hits with any weapon, including hold-outs, will instantly destroy even a lightly armored low-body drone. With hardened armor rules, these drones at least stand a small chance to survive against small arms fire.
What surprised me the most is that with the current rules higher body (5+) and AV (12+) drones either take no or very little damage or are destroyed outright, and there is almost no difference between APDS and Explosive rounds. With hardened armor rules drones take small amounts of damage per hit but stand a greater chance of not just being annihilated by a single hit.
Moving on to vehicles, we see the same trend with regards to hardened armor; damage per hit is lower but consistent, with higher av vehicles shrugging of most small arms fire and high AV vehicles like the Roadmaster being able to take even a direct hit from an AV rocket without being destroyed. Interestingly, the results of changing from normal vehicle AV to hardened AV is much less on the vehicle side in part thanks to their much higher condition monitor.
Another possible houserule if your goal is to make drones more durable would be to simply increase the condition monitor of drones to 8+Body instead of 6+(Body/2); this makes them able to take a few more hits, and if coupled with hardened armor actually makes them able to take several hits without being utterly destroyed.
Based on the information I've reviewed I know what I'll be doing for my own game, but I figured I'd share this so others can benefit from at least knowing the statistical effects of messing around with AV and condition monitor rules. Let me know if you think there's anything wrong with my math or if you're curious about how calculations are made, or if there's anything else you'd like to know.
Also, feel free to discuss the results and let us know how you have house ruled vehicles and drones, if at all.
Analysis: http://i.imgur.com/M7UpGHd.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/M7UpGHd.jpg)
1. Updated analysis comparing Vehicle AV to Hardened AV, with Hardened AV correctly reducing modified DV less than modified AV to 0: http://i.imgur.com/VWd7D1Y.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VWd7D1Y.jpg)
2. Updated analysis comparing Hardened AV (RAW) to Hardened AV that does not reduce DV <= AV to 0: http://i.imgur.com/NG940yQ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NG940yQ.jpg)
3. Updated analysis as 2 but with simplified condition monitors (8+Body) for drones and vehicles both: http://i.imgur.com/rc88ZkK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/rc88ZkK.jpg)
4. Updated analysis combining 2 and 3 but for Spirits: http://i.imgur.com/iQ6sbMw.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/iQ6sbMw.jpg)
NOTE: It seems ShadowGrid doesn't support image resize tags, and file attachments are limited to 256k so I've hosted the file on Imgur instead. The below is just a resized table, and it's obviously very hard to read...
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Good work!
Putting an Anthro into a mil spec armor seems the thing to do then. ;D
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Putting an Anthro into a mil spec armor seems the thing to do then. ;D
Hah, good point! Since most antrhos couldn't hope to achieve that level of AV through modding anyway, that actually isn't a bad idea. Sadly, that seems to be the only way under RAW to make anthro drones durable... :D
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So Herr, what is your houserule gong to be and why?
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Generally I like the idea of drones being fragile for spy drones and drones uses in private or commercial envoirments. Why should someone bother to build them sturdy to resist gun fire.
What I don't like is security drones or military drones beeing so weak. They are build for a special purpose - so while constructing the Steel Lynx for example the engeneers should have designed it to resist gun fire a little bit more than the average drone for private purposes.
Here is my houserule proposal (it's just my first idea):
I dont want to calculate the condition monitor for every drone, so I would simplyfy it:
Basic CM
Microdrones 2
Minidrones 4
Small drones 6
Medium drones 8
Large drones 10
Huge drones 12
Modifications:
Modification "fragile" (change)
You gain 1 mod point, but the CM is reduced by 2 points. (You are not able to get extra mod points for Microdrones).
Developed for combat (new)
The drone is developped for military purposes. Critical points are reinforced with antiballistic materials. The drone is constructed to endure longer in combat.
security drone: +2 CM
military drone: +4 CM.
This modification can't be build in by players, because a whole team of engineers is neccessary to construct a drone this way.
Military drones come and security drones have this modification ex factory. (GM call what is a military (e.g. Steel Lynx) or security drone (e.g. Doberman).
Redundant electronics (new)
This modification adds redundant electronics for critical systems (e.g. processors or important wires) to the drone. Due to this the drone can take more hits before it is out of order.
Level 1: +2 CM / 1 Mod point / Avail as drone / 25% of drone base price
Level 2: +4 CM / 1 Mod point / Avail as drone / 50% of drone base price
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So Herr, what is your houserule gong to be and why?
Seconded. I'm very interested to see what you're doing. I can see a fair combination of Hardened Armor, different CM sizes, etc being all applicable.
I like Tinkerbell's suggestion, but I feel like I still want Body in the equation. So something like:
Micro - Body/2 (mimimum 1)
Mini - 2 + Body/2
Small - 4 + Body/2
Medium - 6 + Body/2
Large - 8 + Body/2
Huge - 12 + Body/2
Now, granted, because Body basically controls size class ... other than Medium/Large/Huge which is all over the place ... it's functionally the same, but visually more consistent.
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Hey Tinkerbell, your redundant systems both say level 1, shouldn't the second one say level 2?
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So Herr, what is your houserule gong to be and why?
Seconded. I'm very interested to see what you're doing. I can see a fair combination of Hardened Armor, different CM sizes, etc being all applicable.
Let me quickly summarize why I feel the need to house rule these things at all, and warn you that this is not going to be a short post. You asked :)
OK, so this is really quite simple. I like drones. I like drones a lot! But under current RAW I don't think they are cost-effective at all. Instead of spending hours and hours reworking the cost of drones, I'm instead choosing to make (relatively) small rules changes so that drones become worth the sizable investment they represent. In many ways i also wanted to streamline the use of drones so that riggers were a little less complicated to play, following the trend of simplifying rules that 5th Edition has set. With that in mind, here's what I'm doing.
House rule summary (full reasoning below):
House Rule 1: Vehicle Armor counts as Hardened Armor
House Rule 1.1: Hardened Armor does not ignore modified DV that is less than or equal to modified AV
House Rule 2: Drones and Vehicles get a Physical Condition Monitor of 8+Body, and they also get an Overflow track of Body
House Rule 3: Upgrades for drone arms and legs cost 50% of list, and arms and legs both add to Condition Monitor
House Rule 4: Any active skill that doesn't require a Magic or Resonance attribute is available as an autosoft
House Rule 5: Swarm is replaced by a Tactical Drone Network autosoft
House Rule 6.1: Repairing drones and vehicles costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; the extended test for repairs is 4 hours for physical condition and 8 hours for overflow, and repairs cannot be attempted at all without the necessary parts
House Rule 6.2: Scavenging drones and vehicles for parts is done with an appropriate Mechanic skill + Logic ([number of parts], 4 hours) extended test; the maximum number of parts that can be scavenged is equal to the number of undamaged condition monitor or overflow boxes the drone or vehicle has left. Each box scavenged in this fashion reduces the appropriate track, but can also be restored with an appropriate repair test and the requisite number of parts
Full details:
House Rule 1: Vehicle Armor counts as Hardened Armor.
Reasoning: Under the current rules, APDS and Explosive rounds have an almost identical effect on high-AV targets; by making vehicle armor Hardened, APDS is actually worth the price of admission against vehicles and drones similar to how it is extremely useful against higher-Force spirits. This also has the effect of simplifying the rules as the special rule just for vehicles where they just ignore any DV that does not exceed their modified AV is replaced by an existing one; this more properly (in my opinion) represents reality where smaller caliber bullets doesn't just magically bounce off of vehicles in nearly all cases without doing any damage. Under this rule, even seemingly minor hits will accumulate as real, significant damage with enough rounds on target.
House Rule 1.1: Hardened Armor does not ignore modified DV that is less than or equal to modified AV
Reasoning: Hardened Armor as per RAW is just too strong for my taste; a Force 9 Spirit or an Ares Roadmaster with Hardened Armor become practically invincible to everything except AMRs and AV rockets. To my mind, this is a little overkill; with this houserule high-body, high-AV targets are still extremely resilient (more so when combined with house rule 2 that simplifies condition monitors), but with enough firepower they can now be harmed by non-APDS sniper rifles, assault cannons, HMGs, and lasers. It'll take volume of fire with these kinds of weapons to harm them, but given enough rounds (or beams) on target they can at least take such a target down eventually.
House Rule 2: Drones and Vehicles get a Physical Condition Monitor of 8+Body, and they also get an Overflow track of Body.
Reasoning: This house rule also applies to metahumans (and Matrix devices, for that matter), and the reason for this is two-fold.
First, I use the optional Care Under Fire rules, and I want combat to be a little more gritty without being instantly lethal. PCs should expect to get shot and take damage if they go loud (intentionally or not), and they will need to take care of both themselves and their equipment to remain an effective team.
Second, this rule affects drones more than vehicles (except in the case of extremely high-body security/military vehicles), as the former become significantly more durable while keeping the latter similar to what they currently are under RAW. For example, a Roto-Drone goes from a Condition Monitor of 8 to 10, a Dalmatian and a Steel Lynx goes from 9 to 11, while a Honda Spirit remains at 16, a Toyota Gopher goes from 19 to 20, and a Roadmaster goes from 21 to 26. These may seem like minor changes, but they can mean the difference between a Roto-Drone being one-shotted by every weapon in the game to actually being able to take a hit or two, and it also means that vehicles that were built for combat can take an anti-tank round and keep going, but if it gets hit twice it's in serious trouble. Rules for targeted shots against vehicles also become more useful this way.
Finally, under RAW a drone or vehicle is completely destroyed when it's condition monitor is filled. I want riggers to be able to at least recuperate some of their losses, so unless the overflow track is also filled the drone can still be repaired. Only when the overflow track is filled is the vehicle or drone a complete wreck, and even then you might be able to salvage some electronics or parts following the normal rules for such actions.
House Rule 3: Upgrades for drone arms and legs cost 50% of list, and arms and legs both add to Condition Monitor
Reasoning: At the current RAW prices, an already expensive drone becomes astronomically so if you start putting upgrades in them. This just balances the cost of upgrading anthros as a little, making them a more attractive option overall.
House Rule 4: Any active skill that doesn't require a Magic or Resonance attribute is available as an autosoft
Reasoning: Wakshaani's comments about Armorer (specifically) not being available because he didn't want drones making ammo or fixing weapons just resonated (no pun intended) with me the wrong way. If a drone can fix my car (automotive mechanic), build a house (industrial mechanic), serve me tea at a fancy dinner party (etiquette), and beat me to death with a 2x4 (melee) or head-shot me from 300 yards with a Desert Strike (targeting), I think it should also be able to make ammunition or repair my armor. If you can get any skill as a skillsoft, it can be translated into an autosoft for drones as far as I'm concerned.
House Rule 5: Swarm is replaced by a Tactical Drone Network autosoft
Reasoning: Swarm has two major issues as far as I'm concerned; there is no limit to the dice pool bonus drones can receive, and drones of completely different types can be part of the same swarm, leading to one combat drone being "assisted" by a swarm of ultra-cheap, disposable drones. I'd prefer to see drones of the same type working together to achieve a task instead with some of the same benefits of Swarm but with more restrictions and a few twists.
Just like Swarm, the linked drones can receive the benefit of the higher of highest Rating Pilot running on a drone in the network or the Device Rating of the RCC the drones are slaved to. Also like Swarm, the drones in a network count as one drone but only for the purposes of issuing commands. As a result, all drones in the network must be able to carry out the command being issued, or the whole network effectively stops (i.e. issuing an attack command to a network of drones where some members have no ability to attack). This encourages a rigger to utilize several drones of the same type with the same capabilities, instead of focusing on boosting a single drone to insane levels. Higher risk overall (more expensive drones exposed to fire), but higher reward as well (each drone gets to take separate actions with bonuses to dice pools).
Unlike Swarm, the Tactical Drone Network autosoft functions more like a centralized tac-net from 4th Edition, and would be priced at [Rating] x 5,000¥, with availability [Rating] x 4 and Rating 1-2 being legal, 3-4 Restricted, and 5-6 Forbidden. Furthermore, the following applies:
1. Each member of the network must contribute [Autosoft Rating] sensor channels for the network to function; the Rating of the drones sensor array counts as one sensor channel. In other words, to contribute to a Rating 6 network, a drone would need a sensor rating of 6
2. The following is blatantly stolen and modified from Unwired:
When in operation, Tactical Drone Networks provide dice pool bonuses for certain actions. The dice pool bonus is based on the number of members (that is, each member that is supplying the minimum amount of sensor channels). The bonus equals the total number of team members minus 1 (you need at least 2 members to have an effective network), up to a maximum equal to the software’s rating. So a team running a Rating 6 Tactical Drone Network with 7 members gets a dice pool bonus of +6 (the maximum). A network running a Rating 4 autosoft with 4 members gets a +3 dice pool bonus (4-1).
3. Bonuses; again I'll just steal directly from tacnets:
Tactical Drone Network bonuses apply to any test a member makes that might conceivably benefit from the tactical soft’s analysis, data-sharing, and suggestions. This is subject to gamemaster interpretation, but several guidelines can be applied. First, the tests environment must fall not only within range of that character’s sensor channels, but also within range of the sensor channels of other team members (at least one). For example, if a team is involved in a firefight inside a building, and one team member runs outside, where none of the others can see/sense, that outside character may not get a bonus on any tests made outside. Second, the test must be something that tactical data and suggestions from the network could conceivably aid. For example, a test to summon a spirit, kick down a door, or hack a node are unlikely to benefit in any way from the information and resources the tactical network is applying to the situation.
Here are some example tests in which Tactical Drone Network bonuses might apply:
Close Combat Tests: The tacsoft can evaluate fighting styles, stances, opponent’s health, and physical layout to instantaneously suggest movement, countermoves, and targeting advice to a character engaged in melee.
Dodge Tests: Enemy movement, fields of fire, line of sight, cover location, targeting probabilities, and spent ammunition estimates can benefit a character trying to avoid being hit.
Firearms Tests: The tacsoft judges the momentum, speed, and direction of opponents, estimating likely course of movement and probable firefight tactics, giving the user an edge on targeting.
Infiltration Tests: Tactical networks can predict likely locations of guards, patrols, and sensors, and evaluate the best course of action contingent to layout and security protocols, in order to assist a sneaking character.
Maneuvering Tests: The tacsoft considers maps, environmental factors, speeds, and probable vectors of other vehicles, suggesting maneuvering solutions and other options for vehicles engaged in combat.
Perception Tests: Sensor data from other team members can enhance a character’s situational awareness.
Shadowing Tests: Using motion analysis on a target and analyzing avenues of movement, as well as coordinating multiple scouts, the tactical soft can aid efforts to tail a target unnoticed.
Surprise Tests: The tacnet can monitor for signs of ambush or enemies maneuvering to engage a team member unaware.
House Rule 6.1: Repairing drones and vehicles costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; the extended test for repairs is 4 hours for physical condition and 8 hours for overflow, and repairs cannot be attempted at all without the necessary parts
House Rule 6.2: Scavenging drones and vehicles for parts is done with an appropriate Mechanic skill + Logic ([number of parts], 4 hours) extended test; the maximum number of parts that can be scavenged is equal to the number of undamaged condition monitor or overflow boxes the drone or vehicle has. Each box scavenged in this fashion reduces the appropriate track, but can also be restored with an appropriate repair test and the requisite number of parts
Reasoning: Repairs are already expensive enough, and each box costing 5% of the drone price seems excessive. I also like the idea of scavenging equipment for parts, so as long as the drone has at least one overflow box not filled you can scavenge for parts. The above rules also close the loophole where one can generate an unlimited number of parts given enough time and with high enough dice pools, and puts a finite limit on the number of parts a given vehicle or drone has. Additionally, I think repairing overflow damage should take longer as this represents serious structural damage. By not allowing repairs to be done without the necessary number of parts we also encourage characters with the Jury Rigger positive quality, as they would be able to MacGyver something together that would last for a short while.
Final thoughts:
If one were to combine all of the above house rules and run a squad of 7 or more mil-spec drones on a rating 6 Tactical Drone Network with maximum armor, you'd have a force just shy of PR6 operatives in terms of capabilities. Pilot 6 + Autosoft 6 + Network 6 for a total dice pool of 18 for any test (not action!) where the network is applicable vs a special forces team with Attribute 10 + Skill 12 for a dice pool of 22 and with more armor in heavy mil-spec armor, but at significant expense. This puts drones in the power range I want them; durable, but not as skilled as PCs at a like for like cost, but with the distinct bonus of not bleeding out when shot. Metahumans should still be king of combat, but with a few drones a rigger can even the odds by providing volume of fire and putting technology on par with magic (summoning Force 8+ Spirits, anyone?).
All of the above changes (with the exception of the Tactical Drone Network) simplifies the rules for vehicles and drones by aligning them to existing rules, effectively reducing variance. They also give riggers a distinct way to support a street samurai in combat without stealing the limelight completely, as a team of two K-K drones with some upgrades slaved to a decent RCC running a tactical drone network could provide two durable combatants that are less accurate and/or precise, providing a perfect distraction for the opponents while the samurai does his dance of death. It also gives riggers an EXCELLENT ability to provide physical overwatch, unmatched by any other archetype, as a network of a few optic-x or roto-drones with high sensors could canvas a large area with real-time mapping and tracking capabilities. Essentially, these capabilities allow the rigger to be a true jack-of-all trades for when the team is short an infiltrator, or a front-line combatant, or a medic or other support character, at a heavy nuyen cost of course.
Generally I like the idea of drones being fragile for spy drones and drones uses in private or commercial environments. Why should someone bother to build them sturdy to resist gun fire.
I just think drones should be more durable to represent the lack of vulnerabilities similar to a metahuman. While a drone may not be built specifically for combat, just firing a round into it isn't going to disable it unless you hit something critical. So to my mind, higher durability directly reflects on the ability of even ordinary non-combat drones to take a hit without becoming non-functional. But that's just my view, and I know many don't share it.
What I don't like is security drones or military drones being so weak. They are build for a special purpose - so while constructing the Steel Lynx for example the engineers should have designed it to resist gun fire a little bit more than the average drone for private purposes.
I agree completely, which is why I would implement the above to greatly represent just how tough some of these drones can be.
And with that, I think I've said more than enough for now. If you made it this far, cheers :)
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And with that, I think I've said more than enough for now. If you made it this far, cheers :)
I like it. I'd only add in Tinkerbell's variability of the base number in the Physical Condition monitor for it to be what I want.
One thing that you didn't mention is how repairs work. Care to shed some light on this topic (5% per box, 1% per box, 2% per box)? Does overflow cost double?
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I like it. I'd only add in Tinkerbell's variability of the base number in the Physical Condition monitor for it to be what I want.
One thing that you didn't mention is how repairs work. Care to shed some light on this topic (5% per box, 1% per box, 2% per box)? Does overflow cost double?
Thanks for reading :)
I'm not hugely concerned about condition monitors on micro/mini/small drones, to be honest, as even a holdout can destroy these with one or two net hits even with a condition monitor of 8+BOD. Getting that one net hit on smaller drones is a different story, though. And larger drones will have higher condition monitors on account of getting Body extra boxes instead of Body / 2, while anthroforms will get an additional 4 for having limbs but are limited to body 6 at the very most (Juggernaught would have a condition monitor of 18, which I actually think is fair given it's description).
Repair.
Yeah, what to say. I don't even want to acknowledge that Rigger 5 changed this yet again, so I'll stick to errata for Run & Gun and it's 2% per box. That means a destroyed drone (with no overflow) could cost as much as 25-35% to repair from "pretty shot" up to "working". Good question about overflow, I hadn't thought about that.
The worst case scenario here are vehicles, which can have 20+ boxes of overflow. Then again, repairing a Roadmaster that's barely even hanging together really should cost an arm and a leg, as not only are you going to be replacing a good chunk of parts but you're going to have to spend the time to actually rebuild the thing.
With the above in mind, I'd be tempted to apply a 5% cost per box of overflow to repair the damage. Alternatively, you could scavenge parts equal to the number of empty overflow boxes from the vehicle or drone in question which could be used to repair other vehicles or drones later.
House Rule 6: Repair costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; scavenging parts is done as per Rigger 5, but overflow boxes scavenged yield 1 box worth of parts per hit on an appropriate Mechanic + Logic [boxes removed] roll and permanently reduce the number of overflow boxes available
Example:
Moto is staring at the remains of his badly damaged MCT Kenchiku-Kikai. Fortunately, the drone was completely unmodified, but it was hit by a drunk driver and is now a shambled mess. Moto decides to scrap it for parts to repair his combat-modified version of the same drone. He cracks his knuckles and gets to work.
Essentially, the stock Kenchiku-Kikai is Body 5, CM 13, Overflow 5. All boxes on the physical condition track are filled, and it would cost (13x(20,000x0.02)) 5,200¥ to repair this damage. However, the overflow track has also taken 3 boxes worth of damage, which would an cost an additional (3x(20,000x0.05)) 3,000¥ to repair. Rolling Logic 5 + Automotive Repair 5 for 10 dice with a limit of 2 (the number of overflow boxes left), he scores 3 hits and gets 2 boxes worth of parts to repair his other drone at no cost.
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House Rule 1: Vehicle Armor counts as Hardened Armor.
Reasoning: Under the current rules, APDS and Explosive rounds have an almost identical effect on high-AV targets; by making vehicle armor Hardened, APDS is actually worth the price of admission against vehicles and drones similar to how it is extremely useful against higher-Force spirits. This also has the effect of simplifying the rules as the special rule just for vehicles where they just ignore any DV that does not exceed their modified AV is replaced by an existing one; this more properly (in my opinion) represents reality where smaller caliber bullets doesn't just magically bounce off of vehicles in nearly all cases without doing any damage. Under this rule, even seemingly minor hits will accumulate as real, significant damage with enough rounds on target.
Actually, the rule for Hardened armor also makes the wearer immune to the damage component of any attack where the DV is less than the modified AV.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was made in the first place.
Applying Hardened Armor as written will therefore change the results of your spreadsheets.
House Rule 6: Repair costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; scavenging parts is done as per Rigger 5, but overflow boxes scavenged yield 1 box worth of parts per hit on an appropriate Mechanic + Logic roll and permanently reduce the number of overflow boxes available
This allows getting a significant amount of parts if you use Edge to Break the Limit. If you don't want to allow this loophole, you might want to specify that the maximum amount of parts that can be obtained this way cannot exceed the number of empty overflow boxes.
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Actually, the rule for Hardened armor also makes the wearer immune to the damage component of any attack where the DV is less than the modified AV.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was made in the first place.
Applying Hardened Armor as written will therefore change the results of your spreadsheets.
Interesting, I never knew. We've been playing spirits wrong, it seems. I'll rerun the calculations tomorrow, as that definitely will change the whole thing for hardened.
House Rule 6: Repair costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; scavenging parts is done as per Rigger 5, but overflow boxes scavenged yield 1 box worth of parts per hit on an appropriate Mechanic + Logic roll and permanently reduce the number of overflow boxes available
This allows getting a significant amount of parts if you use Edge to Break the Limit. If you don't want to allow this loophole, you might want to specify that the maximum amount of parts that can be obtained this way cannot exceed the number of empty overflow boxes.
Good point. Though, truth be told, that's actually possible under the current rules.
You can tear parts out of a working vehicle or drone (the target) for use in the repair of a similar vehicle or drone (your gamemaster will tell you if your scavenging victim is similar if you’re not sure). First, decide how much damage you’re willing to inflict on the target, in Condition Monitor boxes. Then the target takes that damage (with no chance to resist) and you make an appropriate Mechanic skill + Logic [damage inflicted] Test. For every two hits, you scavenge one box worth of parts for your repair job.
What's worse, you can seemingly generate an unlimited number of parts out of thin air by attempting repairs without the sufficient number of parts:
If you don’t have sufficient parts for your repair, you’ll take a penalty to the Extended Technical Skill Test, depending on how short you are: Increase the interval to one day, and for every box worth of parts you lack, you take a –4 dice pool penalty.
Remember, this is all RAW. By the above logic and without using Edge, I can scavenge one part from a groundcraft by inflicting two boxes of damage and getting at least 2 hits on an Automotive Mechanic + Logic [2] test, and then repair the drone again by taking a -8 dice pool modifier and a 1 day interval on the repair test. That just seems silly... I'm also not actually sure if I think breaking the limit should be specifically exempt on this one. Perhaps you should just be able to scavenge a straight number of parts equal to boxes inflicted (normal rules for physical condition monitor) or overflow boxes (house rules), and have the mechanic skill test be the interval of time it takes instead. Unlike gathering reagents, which has a potentially infinite supply under RAW, scavenging for parts has a very real, finite limit. Since the scavenging rules seems like they were adapted from gathering reagents to my mind, I'd be partial to revising the whole thing. SO...
House Rule 6.1: Repairing drones and vehicles costs 2% per box of physical condition monitor and 5% per box of overflow; the extended test for repairs is 4 hours for physical condition and 8 hours for overflow, and repairs cannot be attempted without the necessary parts
House Rule 6.2: Scavenging drones and vehicles for parts is done with an appropriate Mechanic skill + Logic ([number of parts], 4 hours) extended test; the maximum number of parts that can be scavenged is equal to the number of undamaged condition monitor or overflow boxes the drone or vehicle has left. Each box scavenged in this fashion reduces the appropriate track, but can also be restored with an appropriate repair test and the requisite number of parts
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Some good stuff in this thread.
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting herr.
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Yeah, harden bounces if Modified DV is to low, just like Vehicles.
Otherwise good stuff. With some of these house rules jaded pseudo-offical we might make fictional drones, instead of using modded scooters as our combat drones.
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I've always wanted to update the monsters Deus created for the new editions. Maybe I'll take a stab at that...
And thanks. Keep in mind these are just house rules that work for me. Feel free to modify as you see fit. I mostly just wanted to examine how durable drones could be under Rigger 5 rules and share my findings with the community.
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OK, I've updated the calculations for Hardened Armor, so check out the original post for that (now labeled 1). I've also added separate charts (see end of this or OP) for 2) hardened AV (RAW) vs hardened AV (does not ignore DV <= AV), 3) as 2 but with condition monitors of 8+Body, and 4) as 2 and 3 but for spirits, just for laughs.
All I can say is that while I have been playing Hardened Armor wrong (i.e. modified DV <= modified AV still damaged spirits), I think RAW Hardened Armor is just too strong. A Force 9 Spirit is nigh-invincible if you follow RAW where all DV is completely ignored unless it exceeds modified AV, with pretty much the Barret M122 with APDS rounds or an AV rocket the only thing that's able to even hurt it, and even then it would take one really good hit or two solid ones to take it out.
With that in mind, I also added a couple sheets of calculations comparing a possible houserule for Hardened Armor that would apply to vehicles, spirits, and character armor alike, where the only change is to remove the line about DV not exceeding Modified AV. As the charts will show, Hardnened Armor is still powerful, but it doesn't scale quite so exponentially and it means smaller caliber weaponry can chip away at such well-armored targets and eventually take them down, as opposed to the RAW version where you absolutely, positively need an AV rocket to deal with high AV targets. Again, this is just my preference so feel free to use or ignore, but just keep in mind that a Force 9 spirit, which in the grand scheme of things is powerful but hardly even close to what a min/maxed summoner can conjure, becomes an almost unstoppable force under RAW.
House Rule 1.1: Hardened Armor does not ignore modified DV that is less than or equal to modified AV
Reasoning: Hardened Armor as per RAW is just too strong for my taste; a Force 9 Spirit or an Ares Roadmaster with Hardened Armor become practically invincible to everything except AMRs and AV rockets. To my mind, this is a little overkill; with this houserule high-body, high-AV targets are still extremely resilient (more so when combined with house rule 2 that simplifies condition monitors), but with enough firepower they can now be harmed by non-APDS sniper rifles, assault cannons, HMGs, and lasers. It'll take volume of fire with these kinds of weapons to harm them, but given enough rounds (or beams) on target they can at least take such a target down eventually.
If nothing else, at least you now have a handy chart of all the comparisons :D
For reference, these are the updated tables:
1. Updated analysis comparing Vehicle AV to Hardened AV, with Hardened AV correctly (as per RAW) ignoring modified DV <= modified AV: http://i.imgur.com/VWd7D1Y.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VWd7D1Y.jpg)
2. Updated analysis comparing Hardened AV (RAW) to Hardened AV that does not ignore modified DV <= modified AV: http://i.imgur.com/NG940yQ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/NG940yQ.jpg)
3. Updated analysis same as 2 but with simplified condition monitors (8+Body) for drones and vehicles both: http://i.imgur.com/rc88ZkK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/rc88ZkK.jpg)
4. Updated analysis combining 2 and 3 but for Spirits: http://i.imgur.com/iQ6sbMw.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/iQ6sbMw.jpg)
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All I can say is that while I have been playing Hardened Armor wrong (i.e. modified DV <= modified AV still damaged spirits), I think RAW Hardened Armor is just too strong. A Force 9 Spirit is nigh-invincible if you follow RAW where all DV is completely ignored unless it exceeds modified AV, with pretty much the Barret M122 with APDS rounds or an AV rocket the only thing that's able to even hurt it, and even then it would take one really good hit or two solid ones to take it out.
I'm pretty sure this is by design. Spirits are supposed to be hell-on-wheels unless you've got magical countermeasures. Remember that their power (Immunity to Normal Weapons) is just Hardened Armor for Normal Weapons. This means that anything magical totally bypasses all armor and is only resisted by their body stat.
An adept or a mage can make pretty short work of even a high-Force spirit. Other than that, they're supposed to be holy-nine-levels-of-hell-get-out-run-like-the-wind-cry-like-your-momma-found-you-with-your-hand-in-the-cookie-jar-and-she's-got-a-good-birch-branch-ready scary. It's why you bring a mage or an adept to a spirit fight. Just like you bring a decker or a technomancer to a Matrix fight.
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Oh, it's absolutely by design, I just feel it's too overpowered. Immunity To Normal Weapons is clearly not immunity, full stop, as it can still be breached with enough force (no pun intended), so my personal preference is to make the power a little more in line with their general powerlevel. Again, just my personal preference, and the numbers I've put up might show why I've decided to do this. Even if you keep Hardened Armor as per RAW, the analyses could be valuable just in terms of understanding how much damage the various objects and spirits can take.
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I think it's mainly overpowered because it's fairly easy to summon up and bind Force 8 spirits as a player. And then you've got basically an unstoppable juggernaut on your side unless your opposition also brought a Force 8 spirit and then it's mainly a question of which spirit acts first.
I'd be tempted to say something like every spirit you have bound whose Force exceeds your Magic has some sort of upkeep - either in it trying to break loose, or you have to feed it karma or reagents to keep it complacent and happy in your service.
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Some of your numbers seem off to me. For example, on sheet 1, the Holdout vs. Normal AV Roto-Drone, you have 0 damage taken. But there should be 8 DV being resisted by 10 dice, for an average soak of 3.3, leaving 4.6 damage taken. Same sheet, SMG w/ Explosive vs. Hardened AV Roto-Drone, you have 0 damage taken, but it should be 10 DV resisted by 9 dice, with 3 auto hits from the 5 adjusted hardened AV, for 6 hits, leaving 4 damage taken. It looks like your algorithm might be soaking the damage before comparing the DV to the adjusted AV.
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Thanks for the heads up, I'll double check the numbers.
ETA:
Yep, in the formula for the check on ignoring modified DV if <= modified AV, I'd added Body to the value to check against. Fixing it now.
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I'd be tempted to say something like every spirit you have bound whose Force exceeds your Magic has some sort of upkeep - either in it trying to break loose, or you have to feed it karma or reagents to keep it complacent and happy in your service.
I recall one table used a houserule where your limit on bound spirits in Force was Mag x Cha and still total number capped by Cha.
So if you were Magic 6 and Cha 6, you could have up to 6 bound spirits with each being up to 6 force each as your Spirit Force Pool was 36 to represent how much you can control.
But if you had the same stats and decided to push yourself a bit to call and bind three Force 8 spirits that's 24 Force out of your Spirit Force Pool so you could have 2 more Force 6 spirits but your Spirit Force Pool wouldn't be able to cover anymore unless you dismiss one to 'free up' some of that Spirit Force Pool even though normally you could hold 1 more due to Cha.
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I recall one table used a houserule where your limit on bound spirits in Force was Mag x Cha and still total number capped by Cha.
I like it! I really like it! It makes me think of the Focus rules, which rules that are like other rules are generally cooler feeling to me. IIRC, Focus rules are no more than Magic foci and total Force of no more than Magic x Magic.
EDITED: I was wrong. It's just a flat Magic x 5 for total Force. Although a maximum Force of Charisma x 5 in bonded spirits would also make sense.
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I recall one table used a houserule where your limit on bound spirits in Force was Mag x Cha and still total number capped by Cha.
I like it! I really like it! It makes me think of the Focus rules, which rules that are like other rules are generally cooler feeling to me. IIRC, Focus rules are no more than Magic foci and total Force of no more than Magic x Magic.
EDITED: I was wrong. It's just a flat Magic x 5 for total Force. Although a maximum Force of Charisma x 5 in bonded spirits would also make sense.
The Cha x 5 is probably more balanced, but Mag x Cha allowed for more improvement over time as you Initiated and raised your Magic.
Maybe a compromise of (Cha + Initiate Grade) x 5 to determine your Spirit Force Pool?
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The Cha x 5 is probably more balanced, but Mag x Cha allowed for more improvement over time as you Initiated and raised your Magic.
Maybe a compromise of (Cha + Initiate Grade) x 5 to determine your Spirit Force Pool?
With a metamagic, yeah. The metamagic gives you the + Initiate Grade part.
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I think I've made a somewhat interesting discovery. While cleaning up the algorithm issue Malevolence pointed out, Hardened Armor functions exactly the same if you ignore DV less than modified AV or not. This is possibly a statistical anomaly (indicating that the algorithm needs to be able to account for variable dice rolls, which is a pain I'm not prepared to deal with).
What is clear is this: as long as hardened armor is involved and you operate on averages (i.e. any given dice has a 33.33% chance of scoring a hit), there is no functional difference between ignoring modified DV less than or equal to modified AV. Running the numbers indicate that (half AV + (AV/3)) will always exceed modified DV when modified DV is less than modified AV. So it's a moot point whether or not you use that particular part of the rules, at least from a statistical point of view.
Given the above, I've chosen to focus on the two things I've mentioned previously; normal AV vs hardened AV (with correct algortihm this time, I hope), and normal AV vs hardened AV with the condition monitor simplification house rule.
The results are relatively obvious. The previous algorithm was ignoring DV far too often as it had Body added to modified DV, so vehicles are much more squishy than they first seemed. Even something like an Ares Roadmaster will get shot up by a mere taser or heavy pistol with APDS given enough net hits and rounds on target. Drones are much worse off than I initially suspected, and can be destroyed by any weapon in the game.
When applying the unified condition monitor rules, however, the drones obviously become much more resilient. They don't take any less damage, but they won't be destroyed by a single hit in quite as many cases. If one combines this with the hardened armor rules, the situation is much improved for both vehicles and drones.
So, I stand by my decision to house rule vehicle armor as hardened armor and applying a flat 8+Body condition monitor on vehicles, drones and metahumans.
Thanks again to Malevolence for checking my numbers; always good to have someone peer review your work :D
Normal AV vs Hardened AV, normal condition monitor: http://imgur.com/ZMjqjJ3
Normal AV vs Hardened AV, unified condition monitor: http://imgur.com/ZMjqjJ3
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What I learned from that chart so far, Tasers are shockingly more effective at light drone destruction then I would have ever thought possible. However I suspect the range limitations may be more of an issue then that table reflects.
Otherwise this is pretty well what I expected, though I'm not 100% sure I'm reading that table correctly. Can you G-doc it?
I don't think I'm fully following what the first net column means.
But I am interested in reading more.
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Tasers are surprisingly effective and have the added benefit of doing DV/2 Matrix damage. Ironically, this serves very little purpose as under RAW drones have a higher Matrix condition monitor than a physical one. I guess a hacker could fork two drones and you could hit them with stun damage as a one-two combo, but that is a really odd way of taking down a physical threat.
As for the table, it's really quite straight forward. The weapon, base DV, AP, and Mod AV columns should be self explanatory.
The next column is the base DV plus one net hit, resisted by modified AV. I.e. a standard damage resistance test. There are three possible outcomes:
Green cell: If the modified DV is less than the modified AV, the damage is ignored entirely (which doesn't happen until you get into the higher AV tiers)
Normal cell: If the modified DV is more than the modified AV, the modified AV plus body is divided by 3 for an average DV reduction, which is then subtracted from the modified DV and shown as damage taken
Red cell: as above, but if the damage taken exceeds the Condition Monitor Value, the result returned is Destroyed
The next columns are just as per the above, but with DV plus net hit, and hardened armor rules for the damage resistance test, and then normal armor plus five net hits, and then hardened armor plus five net hits.
So what you see is the effect of normal AV vs hardened AV with 1 and 5 net hits, respectively.
The second chart just shows what happens if you unify the condition monitors as 8+Body across the board, just like for metahumans.
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Tasers are surprisingly effective and have the added benefit of doing DV/2 Matrix damage. Ironically, this serves very little purpose as under RAW drones have a higher Matrix condition monitor than a physical one.
Would it seem more accurate for electrical weapons to do full DV matrix damage, and 1/2DV physical damage?
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Tasers are surprisingly effective and have the added benefit of doing DV/2 Matrix damage. Ironically, this serves very little purpose as under RAW drones have a higher Matrix condition monitor than a physical one.
Would it seem more accurate for electrical weapons to do full DV matrix damage, and 1/2DV physical damage?
Yes, yes it would
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I think I've made a somewhat interesting discovery. While cleaning up the algorithm issue Malevolence pointed out, Hardened Armor functions exactly the same if you ignore DV less than modified AV or not. This is possibly a statistical anomaly (indicating that the algorithm needs to be able to account for variable dice rolls, which is a pain I'm not prepared to deal with).
Thanks again to Malevolence for checking my numbers; always good to have someone peer review your work :D
Normal AV vs Hardened AV, normal condition monitor: http://imgur.com/ZMjqjJ3
Normal AV vs Hardened AV, unified condition monitor: http://imgur.com/ZMjqjJ3
Thank you for your work on this. Very helpful. I just noticed that your links to both charts are the same (normal condition monitor). Would you mind posting your unified condition monitor image?
Thank you!