Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: falar on <10-17-15/1038:28>
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How frowned upon is this in Missions character creation?
I've seen very wildly varying opinions on this depending on what online community I hit up about it. /r/Shadowrun follows the "you character is totally min-maxed if you have a one attribute anywhere" philosophy. ShadowGrid seems to lean towards the side where it's bad, but not an unforgivable sin.
For a Missions character where I'm having trouble hitting good values for my main attributes, how much should attributes of one worry me?
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For a Missions character where I'm having trouble hitting good values for my main attributes, how much should attributes of one worry me?
Well, considering it only takes 10 Karma to bring an attribute from 1 to 2, it only takes two adventures to fix if you are worried about it.
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I don't understand how or why it would be an issue. Missions chargen doesn't say "all Attributes have to be at least 2," ergo...
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inb4 All4BigGuns
An attribute of one can present a single big problem if you don't have an established play group-- The inability to default on rolls using that attribute. Now, personally, I'd rather actually have 0 dice and auto-fail than roll 1 die and critical glitch every six rolls but... Some people think that's better.
Some people (cough cough) have extreme ideas of what a 1 in an attribute means, roleplay-wise, but they are in no way "Missions Official" or mechanically supported. It's been discussed a lot on here, so if it comes up, you're better off reading an old thread.
I personally think flaws and weaknesses make a character interesting, and often have a 1 STR because a lot of my more "civilian" characters would logically have been not especially active before being a runner. A 1 makes a statement, but it's not disallowed by any means.
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Thanks! This discussion is pretty helpful.
The first group I played in had a sort-of rule that the average person off the street would have a 2 or 3 in every attribute and that was the "average," so a 1 would have been pretty sub-par if every random schmuck had straight 2s with a couple of 3s in there for what they were good at.
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Thanks! This discussion is pretty helpful.
The first group I played in had a sort-of rule that the average person off the street would have a 2 or 3 in every attribute and that was the "average," so a 1 would have been pretty sub-par if every random schmuck had straight 2s with a couple of 3s in there for what they were good at.
Try looking at it this way: An attribute of 1 is the lowest score someone would start shadowrunning with. Negative qualities are the only thing that will actually give your character a handicap. For example in 4th Edition I had a Dronomancer (technomancer/rigger) that had the paraplegic negative quality: As I recall, I gave her a strength of 1 (as well as a rigger enabled wheelchair with the walker legs modification). The negative quality was the only thing that made her handicapped, not that attribute score. Had I gone with different negative qualities, but kept that score, it wouldn't have meant anything except that she was a bit weaker than others.
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While it is true you can't roll while defaulting on a test with skill 0 + attribute 1 alone, that doesn't mean you can't change the parameters of the test. Get a teammate or drone to do the hard part. Use gear, or do something differently to gain bonus dice.
It's not (usually) going to result in a situation where you just shrug, give up, and let the character die / get caught / other.
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I'm kinda annoyed though that mechanically, there's less risk to have 0 dice than there is 1. Like, next to nothing in the game requires just one success and is unresisted/uncontested. Automatically failing all Etiquette tests due to have a 1 CHA and no skill is better than having 1-2 dice from just CHA and still failing 99.999999% of the time (since you're gonna be resisted by like, at least as many dice, and will probably have some penalties) and having a like 16% chance of a critical glitch and ruining everything.
But mechanically, people are more punished for trying something they are bad at than automatically failing something they're incapable of.
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I suppose that depends on the result of being unable to roll, assuming either the character makes some attempt or does not.
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Mechanically, sure you can look at it however you want. And remember, these aren't just attribute numbers for "shadowrunning" they are numbers for everything. There isn't a single creature or character out there who has less than a 1 in an attribute. How it broke down in previous books:
1 = Weak
2= Underdeveloped
3= Average
6= Maximum Unaugmented Human
SR5 has a way of making dump statting pretty hurtful to your character in that most of the statistics you would want to "dump" be the most important when it comes to calculating your limits. You CAN start with a strength of 1, but it will make your physical limit suck, thus making your character bad at physical things like combat in general, even if they only want to use guns. Likewise you can start with a Charisma of 1, but it will not only make you kind of uncouth without the negative quality, it will make you susceptible to not being able to oppose social things effectively.
I never recommend going with a 1 in an attribute because the limits are pretty nasty to deal with. I mean, yeah, you can blow the limit with edge, if you have enough of it, but that's a limited resource.
However you want to play it is fine, just remember that it can bite you pretty hard.
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Amusingly, said character does have a dump stat of STR-1, but then has Muscle Replacement 2 to bring it up to 3 ... so ... yeah. Not really as big of a deal then as I was thinking.
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The common dump stats, Logic, Charisma, Strength, have significant mechanical penalties for taking a low number. They're the ones that count double for limits, Logic determines your starting Knowledge skills, Charisma your starting Contacts. There really isn't a reason to throw on additional mechanical wrist slaps for a character taking low stats.
Tables that put a hard stat min out there strongly punish low Attribute priority characters. Stat min of 2 effectively means your priority "E" Attributes character has 6? points to allocate. You're already making some tough choices with low priority attribute builds, I don't get slapping around characters even more for doing something that is likely already mechanically weak. Metahuman Mages or Deckers for example tend to push Attributes down in order to get Resources, Magic, and Skills to a minimum level.
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That is very true. I built this character with their melee backup skill as Unarmed Combat, which meant that the STR dump stat was pretty painful at one. With the Muscle Replacements she picked up, it got a little healthier, but this is a big good point.
If a low Physical Limit also lowered accuracy, that could be interesting. For instance, if the limit for shooting was (Physical Limit + Accuracy / 2), Strength would really cap a shooter's effectiveness. But they probably don't need that, because MagicRun.
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That is very true. I built this character with their melee backup skill as Unarmed Combat, which meant that the STR dump stat was pretty painful at one. With the Muscle Replacements she picked up, it got a little healthier, but this is a big good point.
If a low Physical Limit also lowered accuracy, that could be interesting. For instance, if the limit for shooting was (Physical Limit + Accuracy / 2), Strength would really cap a shooter's effectiveness. But they probably don't need that, because MagicRun.
Accuracy aside, shoulda gone with shock gloves. I really don't get the "magicrun because str doesn't factor into using guns enough" comment though. I hope you were being sarcastic.
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Mostly sarcasm.
And I did end up going with Shock Gloves, but those use the Physical Limit as well for accuracy. Still waffling a bit on whether Shock Hand > Shock Gloves or not.
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I once saw a character w/STR, LOG and CHA all 1's, Muscle Toner[3] for AGI 6(9) with just Perception, Exotic(Monowhip) and Automatics at Rating 6...
The GM wrote "Nope!"...
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I personally don't like 1's on my own characters, but its more for RP reasons than anything else. I can live with a few 2's.
Mechanically, a 1 means that you are bad enough in that particular area that unless you have training (i.e. some skill points) you automatically fail at anything that is hard enough to require a skill roll. Now, there are people around out there that will tell you a 1 logic means you are a drooling idiot that has to be lead around on a chain and pointed at the badguys. I don't believe this is the case. And one low score doesn't mean that other areas are low. If you have a 1 logic you can still be very personable and charming (high chr) very perceptive (high intuition) and focused (high willpower). But when it comes to abstract reasoning, academics, and memory, you are just plain horrible. Math beyond basic arithmetic is a mystery. Pretty much anything beyond social media and send a text on a computer is not going to happen. Tools? Put them down chummer and back away slowly.
I think worse is the 1 charisma character. If you dump charisma you MUST put a few points into at least etiquette or you are a disaster waiting to happen. I personally like to have a pool of at least 4 in etiquette, as you can buy one hit and I take this to mean you have rudimentary social graces, you know, eat with a knife and fork, not to call the yakuza member offering you the job "squinty", and you can recognize when to shut up and let other people talk, with is often half the battle. 1 chr and no skills basically means that if there is any chance that you will offend, stand out, anger someone, or get the worst possible price on something, you will.
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I think worse is the 1 charisma character. If you dump charisma you MUST put a few points into at least etiquette or you are a disaster waiting to happen. I personally like to have a pool of at least 4 in etiquette, as you can buy one hit and I take this to mean you have rudimentary social graces, you know, eat with a knife and fork, not to call the yakuza member offering you the job "squinty", and you can recognize when to shut up and let other people talk, with is often half the battle. 1 chr and no skills basically means that if there is any chance that you will offend, stand out, anger someone, or get the worst possible price on something, you will.
What you described is basically the same as the "1 LOG means drooling idiot". And if those basic things require a 4 dice pool for Etiquette, then someone would have to either have the skill (no skill should be required for basic functions in the world-- even commlink use doesn't require a Computer skill) or else 5 Charisma, which is supposed to be exceptional.
It doesn't take a roll to not be racist, and to not say a damn thing. If they require rolls, you have a negative quality.
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I think worse is the 1 charisma character. If you dump charisma you MUST put a few points into at least etiquette or you are a disaster waiting to happen. I personally like to have a pool of at least 4 in etiquette, as you can buy one hit and I take this to mean you have rudimentary social graces, you know, eat with a knife and fork, not to call the yakuza member offering you the job "squinty", and you can recognize when to shut up and let other people talk, with is often half the battle. 1 chr and no skills basically means that if there is any chance that you will offend, stand out, anger someone, or get the worst possible price on something, you will.
What you described is basically the same as the "1 LOG means drooling idiot". And if those basic things require a 4 dice pool for Etiquette, then someone would have to either have the skill (no skill should be required for basic functions in the
It doesn't take a roll to not be racist, and to not say a damn thing. If they require rolls, you have a negative quality.world-- even commlink use doesn't require a Computer skill) or else 5 Charisma, which is supposed to be exceptional.
Thats not what I am saying. As I said in my original post, you fail at things HARD ENOUGH TO REQUIRE A ROLL. The problem with Charisma situations is that those rolls are often forced on you by the GM. Its less so than with logic. Logic comes up more often when you are actively trying something. The 1 charisma character can buy a burrito at Stuffer Shack without an issue, but there are probably going to be critical points where you have to talk to someone. If the meet with the Yakuza boss in in a dark ally, sure the troll can stand in back and keep his mouth shut. If its a long formal dinner, and the Yakuza man is prejudiced against non-Japanese, and you have to come off like something other than a dogmeat eating barbarian, then you can be in trouble.
And as I said, the 1 log character can still do social media, place a comcall, send a text, etc, but probably has trouble with matrix actions more complex than that. A matrix search more complicate than finding the main web page of a business, for example, would probably elude them.
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Here is one way I’ve started to look at it:
- Homer Simpson probably has a logic of one,
- Mr. Burns has strength and body of one (on top of additional negative qualities, granted),
- Barney Gumble has a willpower of one (and obviously an addiction to alcohol, but the show shows his lack of general willpower),
- Millhouse might have a charisma of one (it depends a bit on the episode, sometimes he seems better able to influence people than others),
- Ralph Wiggum probably has an intuition of one (as well as low charisma, and, well, I’m not sure what he isn’t awful at).
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either way, shock gloves/hands are a touch attack so the +2DP helps using them and a low STR matters not.
As far as 1s... I only roll my eyes when I start seeing multiple 1s on attributes (if it's modified by magic/'ware above 1 it's not a 1 in my eyes btw).
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either way, shock gloves/hands are a touch attack so the +2DP helps using them
You can take the +2DP, but it's packaged with the choice of whether you want to add net hits to DV, or change who breaks ties.