Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Bradd on <01-01-11/1756:17>
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The new grenade rules in War! got me thinking about the grenade & missile system, and I'm not too happy with it. There's a little discussion in the Errata forum, but I figured it's more appropriate here. My main complaints with the system:
Using an opposed roll to determine scatter doesn't work very well. My group has been struggling with realism issues: Why would a grenade scatter an extra 2-10 meters or more, just because you're aiming at a person instead of a place? We joke that the target gets to bat it away, but realistically it'd be more like diving for cover. While that would reasonably reduce damage, it wouldn't create so much distance, and it would cause little or no actual scatter.
A bigger problem with the current system is that only one target benefits from the defense roll. If the primary target rolls well, the grenade could scatter 10 meters away ... right into his buddies, who then get no defense. If they get an action before detonation, they could run away, but it's not guaranteed, and things like cover don't matter at all. I consider this highly broken.
Finally, it's been my experience that grenades are useless unless using them on crowds or confined spaces, in which cases they're extremely deadly. It's far too easy for them to scatter outside the 5m range of a HE grenade, and even 12m frag grenades don't have to scatter far before they're useless against armored targets. The old saw that "close counts in hand grenades" simply isn't true for Shadowrun grenades. It's tough enough to drop a grenade on target with a simple success test, and practically impossible with an opposed test. On the other hand, if you throw one into a crowded room, the chunky salsa effect is one of the few things in Shadowrun that can instantly kill even the toughest PCs. The huge variability in effectiveness, and the extreme lethality at the high end, just doesn't fit the rest of the game well.
I think two tweaks would make the grenade rules a lot more realistic, playable, and more consistent with indirect combat spells. First, throw out the opposed test for scatter, and always use the rules for targeting a location instead (a simple test). Second, determine damage the same way you do for area combat spells, with a single attack test versus many defense tests. This allows everyone affected to benefit from things like cover and full defense. You can use the same attack roll both for scatter (using the gross hits) and for damage (using net hits).
Some notes and caveats:
I'm not sure exactly how to apply the damage. Should attacker's net hits increase damage? Or maybe defender's net hits should decrease damage? Either way, you might need to tweak the base damage for grenades, which I'd rather avoid, but oh well.
This system would also work for things like land mines and other explosives. (Most of the time, you don't need to worry about defense for those, since they happen by surprise. And there's no scatter. So you could simplify a lot.)
Maybe we should revisit the chunky salsa rule too? New War! rules say that multiple detonations add together, but you only add full value for the largest explosion, and half for additional ones. Perhaps rebound damage should also be halved. That would make confined spaces more deadly, but not so much of sure kills.
I do like the new rule in War! for contact grenades. That's one case where I do think an opposed roll should figure into scatter. I recommend using the War! rules as written: On a hit, grenade detonates at the target, and net hits increase damage; on a miss, there is no scatter reduction at all.
I'd like your thoughts on this, especially for how best to balance the grenade damage. On the low end, I think a "hit" should inflict at least as much damage as a pistol, which isn't currently the case because of wild scatter. On the high end, I don't think grenades should be any worse than a mage overcasting a powerball.
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My approach is simple, and you suggest it. I ignore the scatter roll. There is no defense (if it's air burst, I don't care if you "dive", you get a back full of shrapnel instead of a front). Things that would normally figure into defense, such as cover, I roll into the damage soak roll. I don't stage up grenade damage from net hits in excess of scatter, a grenade is a grenade, it's damage is from exploding, not how impressively you throw it.
Only exception is the new sticky grenade, if you throw that for a person / vehicle, it sticks to them, no scatter (scatter represents the grenade bouncing around, remember, sticky no bouncy). If it doesn't hit them, the (gross) hits on the attack still reduce scatter.
I have no problem with the rules for chunky salsa, if people are stupid enough to put themselves in that confined of a position, knowing that's what grenades can do, sucks to be them.
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Here's my current thoughts on a house rule. It needs playtesting, but I think it will make grenades more reliable at the low end, but less overpowered at the high end. It also makes grenade attack and damage rules more consistent with other weapons and with magic.
Make a standard ranged attack test using the attacker’s Agility + appropriate combat skill (Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons). Apply standard ranged attack dice pool modifiers.
To determine the grenade's final location, treat this as a Success Test. Determine scatter direction by rolling 1d6, and scatter distance according to the grenade type. The attacker reduces this scatter distance by 1 meter per hit for standard grenades, 2 meters per hit for aerodynamic grenades and grenade launchers.
To determine damage, find the blast effect as usual. Everyone within the blast opposes the attack test with a ranged defense test; apply standard ranged defense dice pool modifiers (including –2 defense versus area attack). For each target, if the attacker scores any net hits, add them to the grenade's DV. Otherwise, the target avoids the blast.
Direct-contact mode: If you set a grenade to direct-contact mode, you can fire it directly at a character or object, and the grenade will explode on impact. Make an opposed defense test for the target (without the –2 defense modifier). If targeting an object or location, the dice pool is zero plus ranged defense modifiers. Notably, the ground and similar "prone" objects have good cover (+4 dice) when aiming more than 20 meters away. If the attacker hits, the grenade detonates at the target, inflicting full DV plus net hits. Otherwise, roll scatter normally, but do not reduce distance by hits.
Confined spaces: Blasts still rebound as described in SR4A, but rebounds don't add their full DV. Use the War! rules for overlapping blasts instead. Determine DVs for all blasts and rebounds. Apply the sum of the highest DV and half of all the other DVs.
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@Chaemera: I think scatter is appropriate, I just think it's excessive, especially for folks who can roll 4-6 hits. Airburst grenades also seem weirdly unreliable. Maybe scatter should only happen on a glitch? Or if you miss with direct fire?
Likewise, I think defense is appropriate, as there's a big difference in how much shrapnel you take, and where you take it, that figures into damage. If you duck and cover, protect your face and your neck, so that you're mostly taking damage on the armor and the ass, you're a lot better off than if you take it full on in the chest. Adding defense modifiers to the soak roll is a good start, but I feel like Dodge should play into it somehow. Really, it's the same principle as mitigating bullet damage with Dodge, it's just harder – but that's what the –2 area attack penalty is for.
Finally, I don't think chunky salsa is a matter of being stupid. Simply being inside of a house or an office is enough to get totally fragged by rebounds. My living room is about 6m long, 3m wide, 2m high. Drop a HE grenade in the middle of this room, and you've got 10P + 4P from each side + 2P from the ceiling, which immediately gets reflected back up from the ground, for a total of 22P, AP –2. That will shred anybody but a troll, and all you need is somebody crazy enough to toss a grenade in a house. Frag grenades are even worse: 12P(f) + 2×(9P + 6P + 3P) from the walls alone. Nobody can survive that, even with AP +5. Your only hope is that it will blow out the walls, and flechette makes that less likely. Rooms this size are not uncommon in Shadowrun. Taking cover is generally regarded as a smart thing to do, but that also tends to put you in a position to get grenade fragged. I really don't think it's a good idea to punish players for being smart, by making them sitting ducks for grenades.
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@Chaemera: I think scatter is appropriate, I just think it's excessive, especially for folks who can roll 4-6 hits. Airburst grenades also seem weirdly unreliable. Maybe scatter should only happen on a glitch? Or if you miss with direct fire?
I think the distances might be excessive in how much they can vary, but a grenade really doesn't stop on impact, so it really should always scatter some before going off.
Likewise, I think defense is appropriate, as there's a big difference in how much shrapnel you take, and where you take it, that figures into damage. If you duck and cover, protect your face and your neck, so that you're mostly taking damage on the armor and the ass, you're a lot better off than if you take it full on in the chest. Adding defense modifiers to the soak roll is a good start, but I feel like Dodge should play into it somehow. Really, it's the same principle as mitigating bullet damage with Dodge, it's just harder – but that's what the –2 area attack penalty is for.
You just don't dodge shrapnel. Yes, you can cover your face (soaking), you can duck for cover (a move action, or dropping prone), etc. But, dodge isn't ducking behind cover that can stop a grenade. The entire point of treating combat as an opposed roll is that the defender is constantly moving in combat, not standing there like a lame duck. You don't bob and weave out of the way of an explosion.
Given that the grenade (unless airburst) won't even go off for an IP, you've got plenty of time to cut and run. or throw it back at them.
Finally, I don't think chunky salsa is a matter of being stupid. Simply being inside of a house or an office is enough to get totally fragged by rebounds. My living room is about 6m long, 3m wide, 2m high. Drop a HE grenade in the middle of this room, and you've got 10P + 4P from each side + 2P from the ceiling, which immediately gets reflected back up from the ground, for a total of 22P, AP –2. That will shred anybody but a troll, and all you need is somebody crazy enough to toss a grenade in a house. Frag grenades are even worse: 12P(f) + 2×(9P + 6P + 3P) from the walls alone. Nobody can survive that, even with AP +5. Your only hope is that it will blow out the walls, and flechette makes that less likely. Rooms this size are not uncommon in Shadowrun. Taking cover is generally regarded as a smart thing to do, but that also tends to put you in a position to get grenade fragged. I really don't think it's a good idea to punish players for being smart, by making them sitting ducks for grenades.
Chunky salsa only happens if the explosion doesn't go right through the walls. A HE grenade (DV 20 versus the wall, if it's adjacent, against Armor 4, Structure 5...) is going to go through a house's walls, not bounce off them. If you're in a reinforced concrete tunnel (the situation where chunky salsa will actually apply) duking it out with people who have grenades, you are stupid.
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You just don't dodge shrapnel.
In a game where you can dodge fully automatic weapons fire and magical fireballs, I don't see why you can't dodge shrapnel too. I figure pretty much the same rules should apply to grenades and indirect area spells, with only the details different. (Also, note that there are new ways for grenades to go off instantly, including command-triggered and impact-triggered grenades.)
Chunky salsa only happens if the explosion doesn't go right through the walls. A HE grenade (DV 20 versus the wall, if it's adjacent, against Armor 4, Structure 5...) is going to go through a house's walls, not bounce off them. If you're in a reinforced concrete tunnel (the situation where chunky salsa will actually apply) duking it out with people who have grenades, you are stupid.
I would expect a load-bearing wall to be at least heavy material (Armor 6, Structure 7), and exterior walls to be structural material (Armor 12, Structure 11). The latter will consistently contain HE grenades at 2+ meters – and if it doesn't, you've got the problem of a building falling on you. Frying pan into the fire.
Shipping yards are another popular site, and shipping containers are even tougher, heavy structural material (Armor 16, Structure 13). If you're firing from cover around the corner of a container, and somebody drops an airburst frag grenade next to you, you're taking 24P(f) to the chin. Who survives that, even with the armor bonus?
For that matter, what about the concrete tunnel? There's nothing unreasonable about being in a tunnel, if that's where you need to be for a job. Trouble is, get caught by enemies with grenades, there's not much you can do other than eat chunky salsa, or surrender and hope they don't feed you grenades anyway, because that's an untenable situation. Rocks fall, everybody dies.
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I think you just need to treat Dodge as not just dodging, but also as the ability to use the character's surrounding for cover also. Especially if he has the 'Ranged' specialty. I would even add 'Explosions' and 'Artillery Fire' specialties.
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I would expect a load-bearing wall to be at least heavy material (Armor 6, Structure 7), and exterior walls to be structural material (Armor 12, Structure 11). The latter will consistently contain HE grenades at 2+ meters – and if it doesn't, you've got the problem of a building falling on you. Frying pan into the fire.
A load bearing solid wall constructed out of concrete or the like? Sure.
But many "load bearing walls" hold up their load via metal or wooden stud posts, clad in very flimsy drywall. The drywall would blow out leaving the studs in place.
Seriously. You can punch through a lot of interior walls in homes and offices, as long as you don't hit a stud post. Granted, you might be in for some pain, but it's doable.
Now, if you're talking a fire barrier, which is a wall reinforced to contain a fire, common in many offices to compartmentalize the structure in the event of a disaster, well, yeah, that might stand up to a grenade. Those have multiple layers of concrete-impregnated wallboard and I would not recommend punching them.
-k
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@Kot: Agreed. People can't dodge most of the common Shadowrun weapons, at least not in the sense of "get out of the way of an attack that's already headed your way." It's too late to bob and weave when the gun has already gone off. Instead, Dodge has to be about situational awareness, being aware of the guy squeezing the trigger (or the incoming grenade), and then making sure you're not in the place he's about to fire at (or the grenade is about to land). In the case of grenades and combat spells, you might not be able to escape the blast, but you can do things to mitigate it that are more than just soaking it on your armor and body.
@KarmaInferno: Good point about the frames vs walls in a building. Windows are an issue too. Although I do wonder just what it takes to reflect a grenade. Beating 1×Structure only puts a 1 sq meter hole in a barrier, after all. Is that enough to vent the full force of a grenade, or will some of it rebound? In my game, I've been treating any hole as enough to prevent rebound in that direction, but I'm not sure whether that's appropriate.
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@KarmaInferno: Good point about the frames vs walls in a building. Windows are an issue too. Although I do wonder just what it takes to reflect a grenade. Beating 1×Structure only puts a 1 sq meter hole in a barrier, after all. Is that enough to vent the full force of a grenade, or will some of it rebound? In my game, I've been treating any hole as enough to prevent rebound in that direction, but I'm not sure whether that's appropriate.
For something like a grenade or rocket, I treat it as an attack against each 1sq meter portion of wall within the blast. Each group of sections of wall at a given distance from the epicenter gets a single soak roll. If that leaves enough damage to bring down that portion of wall, it's gone, everywhere within the blast, not just a 1x1 meter hole. Little more realistic to me, personally.
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That makes sense, although it might be redundant with what the 2×DV vs barriers is supposed to represent. That makes explosions more likely to penetrate and a lot more likely to take out multiple square meters with each blast.
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There's always the Flashbang. 6S -3AP in a continuous area of 10m with no drop-off.
Stun means that it bounces off of all walls, and while the starting damage of 6S isn't much, every bounce stacks another full 6S right on top. Most rooms will reflect the blast about 3-5 times resulting in a final tally of 24-36S -3AP.
Does that sound fatal to you guys? Because that sounds pretty fatal to me...
Also, its scatter is going to be less than its radius of effect, so you can't even miss with the suckers.
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There's always the Flashbang. 6S -3AP in a continuous area of 10m with no drop-off.
Stun means that it bounces off of all walls, and while the starting damage of 6S isn't much, every bounce stacks another full 6S right on top. Most rooms will reflect the blast about 3-5 times resulting in a final tally of 24-36S -3AP.
Does that sound fatal to you guys? Because that sounds pretty fatal to me...
Also, its scatter is going to be less than its radius of effect, so you can't even miss with the suckers.
creating a loud, bright, shocking blast equally distributed over a radius of 10 meters.
I use that as my own personal get out of jail free card.
Also, as a GM, if it flies in the face of good sense, I apply the following RAW:
If something in these rules doesn't quite fit or make sense to you, feel free to change it. If you come up with a game mechanic that you think works beter - go for it!
Gotta love it when house-ruling is RAW. ;D
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The purpose of a flashbang grenade is to impose negative modifiers, and blindness/deafness on enemies. That's what the stun is there for. Sure, if you drop one into a tank, or a van, everyone will get blasted into physical damage probably. But i don't think it can get above 12-15-ish damage. And that's raw damage, before resistance tests are rolled.
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using RAW, assume a 2m by 4 m van, with 2m from floor to ceiling (it's one of them tall vans). Assume this is a tactical van with seating along the side walls, so seats don't provide a barrier to the blast.
Joe Cop, dumbest brick on the CRT, drops his flash-bang grenade at the center of the van (1m from either side, 2m from the front, back and roof, 0m to the floor. Ignore the infinite number of non-orthogonal waves.
Wave 1 represents the wave that goes into the floor, it bounces off immediately and passes up to the roof (2m traveled), bounces back to the floor (4m), back to the ceiling (6m), floor (8m), ceiling (10m) and stops. Damage is uniform throughout the blast, so Joe Cop at the center of the van takes 6S x 5 (# of passes from floor to ceiling, or vice versa).
The wave headed to the ceiling travels the same path as the wave into the floor, for another 6S x 5 damage to Joe Cop.
Wave 2 represents the waves travelling from front to back. 2m to the front (back), 4m (6 total) to the back (or front) and another 4m (10 total) to the front (or back) again. So each Wave 2 deals out 6S x 3 (passes) to Joe Cop.
Wave 3 represents the side-to-side waves. 1m to side A, 2m (3m total) to side B, 2m (5m total) to side A again, back to side B (7m), to side A again (9m) then away from side A for half a pass. For 4.5 passes (standing to one side or the other, he will feel the effect of one, but not both of the final passes of the wave).
So, poor Joe Cop is getting 2 each Wave 1, Wave 2, and Wave 3.
That's
2x6S( 5 + 3 + 4.5) = 150S to soak.
Okay, you think he should only have to deal with those waves parallel to the earth, lots of people don't like to consider all three dimensions. after all, it would require someone standing on a grenade to always take double damage (initial wave + wave reflected off the ground). Fair enough, the rules are abstract after all. So, let's take out Wave 1.
Now, Joe Cop only faces:
2x6S(3 + 4.5) = 90S.
I really don't think Flash-bangs are supposed to bounce off walls for bonus damage, or else I've found my new favorite troll killer.
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For what it's worth, I assume that grenade damage already accounts for damage reflected from the ground (because it's almost always there, and generally very difficult to destroy). I do count bounces from the ceiling though, and back off the ground if they make it that far. Likewise I ignore non-orthogonal reflections, so I count a total of five shock waves, one in each cardinal direction and one upward.
Given what I know about flash-bang grenades, I don't think they should accumulate damage like that. They're designed to stun by messing with your senses, rather than doing serious damage. Realistically it'd be worse in a tight space, but it probably shouldn't add up damage effectively in game terms.
Then again, damage probably shouldn't add up as effectively as it does for any explosion. Even if you don't breach a wall, a lot of force and shrapnel gets transferred into it. You don't need to put a hole clear through to soak up the dangerous bits. It's another reason I think you should use the overlapping explosions rule (secondary shockwaves deal half DV).
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Halving secondary wave damage is not an unreasonable method if you feel that the rules are too harsh. The underlying problem which you touch on (transfer of force even when the walls stay standing) is too complex for any simple solution if you want to be good to realism.
The reason being is that it depends on both the type of explosion and the walls its impinging against. For example, Imagine a theoretical vulcanized rubber-walled (say, 20 cm thick) room. Detonate a frag grenade inside. What happens? All those rebounds SR4 calls for never happen, because the shrapnel sticks in the rubber. Now, detonate an HE grenade. Guess what? You're dead, very dead, because the vulcanized rubber is stiff enough to reflect the overwhelming amount of the shockwave back towards the center of the room.
Now take a thin-walled (5 cm) steel shipping container. The result is the exact opposite. The HE grenade will bow the walls of the shipping container, transferring its energy away from the center point, but the shrapnel will bounce around in there until it finds something fleshy or it's shed all it's momentum (which'll be a while as far as anyone inside is concerned).
I could go on all day with examples where different explosions, given a different barrier, will result in a completely different scenario. So, they simplified it, if the wall withstands the blast, the wave comes back at ya. If it doesn't, the wave leaves you alone.
If you want to be nicer without just assuming half the second (third, fourth, etc) wave's damage on impact, you could use your GM magic to apply a "most rational" solution case-by-case. Perhaps, since they're in an asylum with padded walls, you ignore the frag grenade's rebound entirely. And when the HE grenade's explosion bounces off, you figure there's enough give in the padding to reduce the wave's explosive potential by, say, half structure?
I find these "as you go" type rulings (if your players are comfortable with it) are a far cry better at establishing a sense of realism without completely negating the fear of chunky salsa than any static rule could be. After all, that tactical consideration should be on their mind when they decide to take cover in a shipping container. It may even coax them into a sub-optimal solution, using wooden shipping crates as cover and spreading out. Heck, that's the point of grenades, to keep people from digging in too deep to dig back out.
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Just to clarify, I was thinking of people taking cover behind shipping containers, not inside of them – behind the corner of a building is another good place to get fragged, and yet a smart place to be when bullets are flying. Anyway, your basic point is valid: Grenades flush people out of hard cover (or send them in deeper, so they're no longer a threat). I would simply prefer that they were better at doing that, and not so good at killing people outright in that situation.
By the way, another thing that's been bothering me is the "rebound repeatedly off each of the six surfaces" rule, not just because it's unsurvivable, but because "six surfaces" is a really naïve way of describing reflection mechanics. What happens in an octagonal room, for example? ;) While the shape of the room does influence reflections, it really shouldn't matter much when it comes to the overall health hazard. I've been thinking, it might make sense to just use the single most damaging reflection path. That would also mitigate some of the realism and overkill concerns that I have.
Paradox: Grenade goes off in a narrow corridor. It's not strong enough to blow out the walls directly, but after a couple of rebounds the DV is high enough. However, if it blows out the walls, then you don't get a couple of rebounds, so it's not strong enough to blow them out.
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Just to clarify, I was thinking of people taking cover behind shipping containers, not inside of them – behind the corner of a building is another good place to get fragged, and yet a smart place to be when bullets are flying. Anyway, your basic point is valid: Grenades flush people out of hard cover (or send them in deeper, so they're no longer a threat). I would simply prefer that they were better at doing that, and not so good at killing people outright in that situation.
That's why Shadowrun has the Hand of God? :D
By the way, another thing that's been bothering me is the "rebound repeatedly off each of the six surfaces" rule, not just because it's unsurvivable, but because "six surfaces" is a really naïve way of describing reflection mechanics. What happens in an octagonal room, for example? ;) While the shape of the room does influence reflections, it really shouldn't matter much when it comes to the overall health hazard. I've been thinking, it might make sense to just use the single most damaging reflection path. That would also mitigate some of the realism and overkill concerns that I have.
Hey, just 'cause some of us consider the reflection paths off of the heavy steel benches that were welded to the floor of the shipping container (so the cargo had somewhere to sit), doesn't mean they had to be too complicated in their thinking.
To be fair, the general rule says "If the wallss or doors hold up, the blast is channeled" and then tell you how to handle channeling (ie, the wave comes back at you). The only time they specifically talk about 6 surfaces is when describing chunky salsa. Of course, the fact that they say 6 suggests that you're supposed to include waves reflected off the ground. Better hope you've got a high enough DV to destroy the planet...
Paradox: Grenade goes off in a narrow corridor. It's not strong enough to blow out the walls directly, but after a couple of rebounds the DV is high enough. However, if it blows out the walls, then you don't get a couple of rebounds, so it's not strong enough to blow them out.
Eh, it blows out the walls and deals damage to the characters as if it hadn't been staged up?
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Paradox: Grenade goes off in a narrow corridor. It's not strong enough to blow out the walls directly, but after a couple of rebounds the DV is high enough. However, if it blows out the walls, then you don't get a couple of rebounds, so it's not strong enough to blow them out.
I've always ruled that the damage stacks until it blows out the wall.
As for the idea of reflecting off the ground, I've assumed if the grenade lands on the floor it doesn't reflect unless the shockwave rebounds off the ceiling to the floor and back up. however say a grenade goes off in your pocket (happened once) then the ground would reflect the shockwave.
Speaking as someone that routinely makes and breaks walls, most residential and even commercial structures under 5 stories are not using what SR calls structural material. Now a high rise or large span like a hotel ballroom would. If your wondering if a HE grenade would punch out a typical wall, the only tool I use to remove sheetrock/concrete board is my hands.
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I think one of the most common structural materials in SR is plastiboard, which I'd imagine is about as thick as plywood, but more resilient since it's designed to flex rather than crack or shatter. Proper demo there would likely involve removal and recycle rather than hammers and such. The barrier table lists it as almost twice as hard to bust as plaster or sheetrock and likens it to ballistic glass.