Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: jim1701 on <07-30-15/1552:26>
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Based on the discussion here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21431.0). I thought maybe a thread discussing just how matrix perception worked would be in order.
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It works good :)
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It works good :)
Xenon won the internet
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It works good :)
Xenon won the internet
Xenon won the Matrix, Internet is so 2004 :P
As for Matrix perception, it is taking some wrapping one's head around because it is different than just seeing something, it's interpreting it.
I look forward to the no doubt lively debate on this as any insights are always welcome.
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...it is taking some wrapping ...
Lets start off with Wrapper cyberprogram then, shall we.
Change Icon will only change the aesthetics of an Icon. The purpose of the Icon must still be obvious even at a first glance. The device icon of a vehicle will still look like some sort of transportation. If you change your Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit device icon into a chariot (complete with reins to drive the vehicle) people that don't physically see your vehicle and just see your device icon in the matrix might be fooled into thinking that you have an Ares Mobmaster riot control vehicle rather than a Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit (or they might just think that you changed the appearance of the icon).
Running Wrapper cyberprogram while using Change Icon let you override the icon protocol. A vehicle for example no longer need to look like a transportation. It can look like a weapon or a toaster or whatever. The purpose of the icon is no longer obvious at a first glace. Anyone that have any reason to doubt that the icon is what it looks like can spend a hit from a matrix perception test to find out what the icon really is. Anyone that actually see your physical Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit will still see and can still interact with it's device icon - even if the look of the icon is illegal and doesn't even look like a transportation device.
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My originally intended post is below, but Wrapper is a good place to start. For seeing through it, how do you run it? It only mentions back to Matrix Perception, but not how it interacts with it. I.e. does it act like you are Running Silent and is Opposed? Or is it just a question they can ask on the Matrix Perception test (i.e. 'Are there any Icons that have been changed by Wrapper?' or a less general one 'Is this Icon changed by Wrapper?')
Alright, so part of what brought this up (from the other Thread) was how GOD/Demi-GOD's are able to limit what Silent Running Icons are visible, namely it's mentioned that they can tailor their Matrix Perception to exclude RFID tags. What, if any, ways are there for those that aren't a Demi-GOD to do that? While Demi-GOD's are statted up, it's accepted that they can do things that others can't with the Matrix (such as the OS smackdown). If others can't do that, then we have the problem of RFID stealth tags protecting gear for those that aren't Hackers. If others can, then that means that Hacker PC's should reasonably be able to as well. If you can tailor it to not look for specific things, then by contrast you should be able to only look for specific things (i.e. Sensors, Cyberware, Weapons, Personas, etc.) as I can't think of a good reason for them to not be able to exclude things other then RFID tags as any broad type of Icon shouldn't have special exceptions for spotting them, except maybe things like Personas. If you allow others then Demi-GOD's to tailor their Matrix Perception, how do you deal with that with regards to PC's doing it? If you don't, how do you deal with the Stealth Tag issue?
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Wrapper allows you to perform a Change Icon and change an icon to one that is not normally used by that device/persona. Change Icon specifically says it has no impact on the results of a Matrix perception test. It would only fool someone who perceived the altered icon in the matrix without actually performing a matrix perception test.
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Thank you, Jim, I had missed that bit in the book on it.
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As for Spotting
All wireless devices have a device icon on a grid in the matrix. Even if the device is slaved to a host the actual icon will still be out on a grid. Think of the device icon as an augmented reality digital overlay over the physical item. The icon of a device is very obvious. If you have a physical device within 100 meters then you are automatically also within reach to interact with it's device icon. But even if the device is further away and out of your reach it is still easy to get within reach of it's icon(in fact since the threshold on the simple test is 1 it is about as difficult as it is to notice a neon sign, running crowd, yelling or gunfire would normal perception). It is possible to reduce the traffic from a wireless device and the matrix, but not stop it entirely. The device will still have it's matrix icon out on a grid, it's icon will just be a bit harder to reach. If you have a device in front of you but don't automatically get to interact with its icon then the device is probably limiting it's traffic to the matrix. To get within reach of the icon of the silent running device you take an opposed matrix perception test.
The act of Spotting is something you need to with all icons that don't let you interact with them directly. Once you Spot an icon (that was either physically far away of from a device that was set to limit it's matrix traffic) the icon will continue to be within your reach until you or it reboot or until it bend the matrix to hide from you. After you Spot an icon you can now interact with it as normal.
Matrix perception can also be used to spot devices that run silent around you that you didn't even knew existed. This can be done by asking the GM if there are any icons that are trying to hide in the vicinity. Next step is then to spot each individual icon one by one with opposing tests.... However, this is only used when you have no idea that there are hidden icons is out there to begin with. For example; if a hidden icon successfully use an attack matrix action on you then you can try to get within reach of that specific icon directly with an opposed matrix perception test no matter where in the world the attack came from. Another example; If someone is calling you then you can try to Spot that specific icon. If the caller is in the vicinity then you can automatically interact with it. If not you need to take a perception test. If he is running silent then the matrix perception test will be opposed.
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As for Filtering.
Matrix perception is all about filtering. You can put every single icon on the matrix in your field of view but the number of icons will be staggering. Every electric device in the world have an icon. Every SR5 File (which is more like a 2015 directory really) will have an icon. Every person in the world will have an icon. Then you have all the agents, sprites and hosts that also have icons of their own. And between all the icons there will be an irregular pattern of data streams zipping back and fourth. Your meat perception is limited by stuff such as line of sight, smog and the curve of the earth. Your matrix perception can be used to look at the entire matrix at once, blocking your entire meat perception with zillions of matrix icons and data streams from all corners of the world.
To make all this manageable you filter out icons that are less interesting for you (you don't really want to see an icon for every single music album out there, right?). You can't really interact with data streams so you filter out them first. You can choose to merge all icons in a person's personal area network into one single PAN icon. If you wish. You can also choose to not merge icons you think are extra important. Like device icons of weapons. If you for example are only interested in just PAN icons then you can choose to filter out all icons that are not part of a PAN icon. Many devices use reduced matrix traffic and you normally don't see them either. Maybe you are only interested in weapon device icons? Finding the correct icon that you wish to interact with can be similar to a game of 20 questions.
Icons that are physically not close are probably also less interesting and there will also be more noise affecting them so they will become dim and flickering because of this. The same goes for devices with reduced matrix traffic. They all got an icon on a grid, it just don't shine so bright that you automatically can interact with them. To interact with an icon that is not crystal clear and obvious you need to first successfully focus a second or so. This whole process is called Spotting.
Sometimes you might be extra interested in devices that have reduced matrix traffic (most security devices for example). One way of doing it is to set your filter to only show you devices in the vicinity of the antenna of the device you used to form your persona on (your commlink). The matrix sky goes dark as all hosts vanish from your field of view. The matrix horizon goes dark as all icons beyond 100 meters are filtered away. Then you filter out all icons that already have a bright and shiny icon. This is the majority of icons around you. Left are the vauge device icons of devices within 100 meters that have reduced matrix traffic. Next you also filter out all the silent running icons that you already Spotted. You are now left with a [hopefully] smaller number of icons that are dim, flickering and out of reach. Hard to make out. Hard to focus on. To get here you normally just ask the GM "Are there any silent running icons in the vicinity?"
If you have no idea what icon you are trying to find other than that they have reduced matrix traffic then you can always try to Spot them one by one, but if you for example are walking down a corridor in a hostile facility you might be more interested in cameras, maglocks and sensors that you are about to walk into or you might be primary interested in devices that are not stationary (since this often indicate a guard... or a drone).
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Disclaimer; The book is deliberately vauge on this subject (there is not much RAW to guide nor limit) so it will mostly be up to individual tables how they manage this. The above explanations might or might not be what the authors intended, but my interpretation does not break any existing rules and they kinda make sense (at least to me). I have been given the SR5 matrix a lot of though ;)
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Wrapper allows you to perform a Change Icon and change an icon to one that is not normally used by that device/persona. Change Icon specifically says it has no impact on the results of a Matrix perception test. It would only fool someone who perceived the altered icon in the matrix without actually performing a matrix perception test.
Precisely!
The icon protocol dictates that you should know it's basic purpose by just glancing at the icon. Without spending time to actually look at the icon. A vehicle will have an icon that is some kind of transportation. It doesn't matter if the device is so close, bright and obvious that you can interact with it directly or if it is so dim, flickering and hard to spot because it is physically far away. Just by glancing at the icon you will know it is some kind of vehicle.
With Wrapper the icon no longer need to follow protocol. The vehicle no longer need to have an icon that have anything to do with transportation. It can look like a music album. It doesn't matter if the icon is so close, bright and obvious that you can interact with it directly or if it is so dim, flickering and hard to spot because it is physically far away. Just by glancing at the icon, without spending the time to take a closer look, you will think it is a music album.
Now, if you have reason to suspect that the icon is not a music album (or if you are just paranoid in general) then you can take a closer look to find out what type of icon you are really looking at. This will not actually change the look of the icon but you will know that the icon is a vehicle and not a music album.
This goes both ways. If you for example physically see the physical vehicle you also see that it's icon is breaking protocol. In this case you don't even need to take time to inspect it. Just with a glance you know that the vehicle use an icon that look like a music album.
Wrapper also only change the look of the icon, not its functionality. If you have your mark on the icon, a sleaze attribute and some knowledge in electronic warfare then you can remote control the vehicle to open the trunk - even if the icon look like a music album.... You can not use your computer skills to copy the album. That only work on music albums that really are file icons, not on device icons that look like file icons.
If you wish to set your matrix filter to only show vehicles in the vicinity then you will see a bunch of various transportation icons and one icon that look like a music album. Change Icon will not change the outcome of a matrix perception test.
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Alright, so part of what brought this up (from the other Thread) was how GOD/Demi-GOD's are able to limit what Silent Running Icons are visible, namely it's mentioned that they can tailor their Matrix Perception to exclude RFID tags.
I don't see why this would be limited to GOD in any way.
Devices that have limited matrix traffic still have an icon in the matrix just like all other wireless devices, you just can't interact with them before you actually Spot them.
If you set your filters to exclude RFID tags I see no reason why icons very far away or why icons of devices with reduced matrix activity should not be filtered out....?
If you can tailor it to not look for specific things, then by contrast you should be able to only look for specific things (i.e. Sensors, Cyberware, Weapons, Personas, etc.)
Yes, it is my reading you can do this. The matrix is very helpful at finding things for you, at least as long as you at least have an idea what you are looking for.
If you have no idea if there are any silent running icons out there then you just look for silent running icons in general and then get within reach of them one by one. If you set a very specific filter then you get a smaller result (or no hits at all), but even if you set a filter so tight that there is only one icon left it is still out of your reach. You still need to Spot the icon before you can interact with it.
You are not taking an opposed test to filter out the view until there are only devices with reduced matrix traffic left. That only take a single hit on a simple test. You are just taking an opposed test so the icon will no longer be out of reach for you (Spotting). Once it is within your reach you interact with it as normal. There is no test at all to glance at an icon to see how it looks and if the icon follow protocol this also mean you don't take a test to know it's basic purpose (transportation device, recording device, weapon device etc). There is no opposed test to observe an icon in detail once you Spot it - this is just a simple test.
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That reading of it both makes things easier and harder in the Matrix. It makes it so that running silent is no longer much of any protection at all against hackers (I filter so that only visual devices show up (Cybereyes, contacts, glasses, goggles, cameras, etc.)) one more action, and they then start bricking eyes, or other items. Unless you're also a hacker. At the same time it makes it easier for the hacker in the group to find what they need (either to attack or similar). It makes it so that no one else should be running things Wireless, unless they have a massive amount of Matrix Defense (the Willpower 9-12 builds comes to mind). If that makes sense, at least.
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Using the sidebar on 235, I don't think I'd let things as granular as "cybereyes." Augmentations, sure, but I go with the broad categories in the gear chapter.
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I don't think running silent is useless even for non-deckers though I think a non-decker really needs to think about what should run silent and what should run wireless off. First I don't think that an enemy decker is going to spend all his time looking for silently running icons. Matrix perception is an action and it take time and it means you aren't doing anything else at the same time. You also have to have some kind of target to make a matrix perception test against. What exactly constitutes a target, however, is largely up to the GM IMO.
I don't think it is a good idea to allow targets that are too vague but then that's where a Matrix Search or a regular old Perception test can help define a target. Enough hits on a Matrix Search can generate the data needed to target a specified icon which you can then attempt to spot. A perception test might let you spot something or someone unusual which you can then use as a target for Matrix Perception.
Matrix Perception is also an excellent reason to make sure your devices are all slaved to a device that has a good Sleaze rating. ;)
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I didn't say cybereyes, I said visual devices which is much broader then cybereyes. If it's running silent you wouldn't know if they are cybereyes, contacts, glasses, goggles, camera sensors, etc. But you would know it was a visual device. Commlinks, as they have a camera, would probably also be in there. So it's a very broad category, but you know one important fact. All of them are visual devices. Just like the one important fact with saying all augmentations, they're augmentations
Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text. And sadly, you don't share Sleaze with slaved devices, only Firewall.
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Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text. And sadly, you don't share Sleaze with slaved devices, only Firewall.
Slaving specifies
Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test.
Firewall isn't specified, so I'd totally allow Sleaze to be shared.
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I stand corrected. I thought it specifically mentioned Firewall, but now after looking at it again it only mentions that in the example. Another reason for everyone to be hackers, or at least have a Sleaze attribute.
Edit: And for Technomancers to grab a Deck/Sleaze Dongle.
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Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text.
I agree. That's why I mentioned the use of Matrix Search and Perception to clarify a valid target. If I physically look around and due to the number of hits I get on a Perception test that the GM tells me that I notice you standing 20 odd meters away and you look dodgy then IMO you become a valid target of a Matrix Perception test and since you are physically close enough I automatically spot any icons that are not running silently and if I beat the opposed test I'll spot your silently running icons as well.
Similarly I see a Matrix Search performing the same kind of function. Though in that case you have to have some kind of idea as to your target or else a search is useless. That's why i wouldn't have a Spider performing a Matrix Perception test unless there was indicator to give him a target to focus on such a IC going offline suddenly, a successful attack action being performed or perhaps noticing that a security camera in a particular location is going glitchy.
Edit: Kincaid already addressed the sleaze thing.
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The thing about Matrix Perception is you get to ask questions, one per hit. If your Perception is looking for Silent Running icons and you get 2 hits, your questions could be 'What Icons are Running Silent?' (or similar, pretty much needed for using it for looking for Silent Running Icons) and 'What of these isn't an RFID tag?' Which by how Demi-GOD's doing it in Data Trails is the only way we have rules for doing that. Conversely, if you can exclude a type of Silent Running Icon, you can exclude all but one type. The second question would change to 'Which of these are imaging devices?' or 'Which of these are weapons?' or 'Which of these are augmentations?'. If you can exclude a certain type there is no good in world reason you can't exclude everything but one type. Many things would fall under multiple types. Cybereyes would be both imaging devices and augmentations, if they have a weapon installed they would also be that, though you could argue that the eye laser (or whatever) would have it's own icon. A Camera sensor would fall under both Sensors, and visual devices.
Now you could argue that only Demi-GOD's can do that, in which case you have the issue of 100 silent running RFID tags providing all the Matrix security someone needs. Or if you say that you can only exclude things, then you end up with RFID, extra sensors, someones rappelling gloves with wireless on (everything that isn't a throwback after all), and so on all running silent, all of them small, and all of them on that list you now have of silent running icons that you can only exclude specific types of things from.
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Well YMMV but if you force a decker to spend multiple turns sorting out icons to determine what to take an action against then combat decking is DOA plain and simple IMO. Combat does not last long enough to let a combat decker spend the first couple rounds just trying to figure out what is what.
Also, I will again state that asking about silent icons is not a valid question IMO. Asking about all icons associated with a specific person or object that I have physically perceived or that I have gathered specific information about via a Matrix Search ahead of time IS a valid question IMO. Now, if aforementioned icons are running silently then there is an opposed test or if they are over 100 meters from my current location there is a simple test.
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Well YMMV but if you force a decker to spend multiple turns sorting out icons to determine what to take an action against then combat decking is DOA plain and simple IMO. Combat does not last long enough to let a combat decker spend the first couple rounds just trying to figure out what is what.
Also, I will again state that asking about silent icons is not a valid question IMO. Asking about all icons associated with a specific person or object that I have physically perceived or that I have gathered specific information about via a Matrix Search ahead of time IS a valid question IMO. Now, if aforementioned icons are running silently then there is an opposed test or if they are over 100 meters from my current location there is a simple test.
There are two things at work here. First, the main topic of this thread, the ability (or lack thereof) to identify potential risks that are running silent. Second, and this is probably worth discussing as well, is the inherent lack of action economy with the Matrix Perception action. Standard Perception tests are either free (when the GM calls for one) or Standard when you initiate one (and you generally get bonus dice when you do). Since Matrix Perception is a Complex Action, and common Matrix sequences involve stringing together two successful tests (and then possibly spending yet another Complex Action to mark--we're now at three Complex Actions to set up your "real" action), it's not uncommon to see deckers spend entire IPs rolling Spot checks, which isn't terribly fun. Alternatively, you also see decking strategies that involve busting into a host running silent with a bloated Sleaze score, working off the assumption that the spider will never be able to actually locate you, forcing him to burn Complex Action after Complex Action. This isn't a bad strategy (hide from bad things), but creates a really non-interactive game experience. I'm thinking about houseruling MP to follow the same action types as regular Perception.
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So, you're of the opinion that only Demi-GOD's can single out things like RFID tags from silent running icons, then? That is what it sounds like, at least to me. Because that is outright stated in the fluff text as something they can do. If it's not something exclusive to them, then it has to be something that other Hackers can do.
As for Combat Decking, yes. It's pretty much DOA as it is. Even if you don't require them to search through stuff, if someone is worried about deckers, they can just turn wireless off on everything they have. Then the Hacker can't do anything to them. The thing I'm more thinking of is with regards to fast out of combat hacking. Having to sort through 100 icons on someone (all of them silent, RFID tags don't take that much room, it's outright stated in Core that they can be microscopic) would make hacking tedious. That is what we are trying to avoid. Because if hackers couldn't do that, then if I was a corporation I would tag all my security guards, cameras, and pretty much every stand alone device with ~ 50 tags or so, if it's reasonably cost effective (standard prices for RFID's, it is). Simply to make it next to impossible for a hacker to do anything without a direct connection. It would end up making for a not fun game for the hacker. And would make it tedious for the GM if there is a hacker against them. Neither of which are ideal.
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Asking GM about "silent running icons in the vicinity" is just a way to get an idea that there are "silent running icons in the vicinity".
- You skip that step if you already suspect that there is a silent running icon out there.
If you want to spot the icon of a device more than 100 away you take a matrix perception test. If you want to spot the icon of a device that have reduced matrix traffic you take an opposed matrix perception test. There is really no big difference. You don't need to first ask about "silent running icons in the vicinity" and then spot them one by one at random. You just take the opposed test. That's it. The target device does not have to be within 100 meters either. You can spot the silent running icon of a device that is half across the world if you like. This is RAW and there are examples to back this up in both core and data trails.
If you see a wireless enabled device but not it's icon you can try to spot it with an opposed test.
If you are successfully attacked then you can try spot the aggressor with an opposed test.
If you snoop someone that send a message to a silent running target you can try to spot the recipient with an opposed test.
When talking about PANs the book say that you can filter icons in the PAN into one icon. Your commlink can keep track of which icons that are part of a personal area network (slaved to a master device) and which icons that are not.
It also mentions that you can set your commlink to for example not merging dangerous or interesting icons, such as weapons. So your commlink can tell the difference between a weapon device icon and a device icon that is not a weapon.
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I'm thinking about houseruling MP to follow the same action types as regular Perception.
I started a thread on the idea here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19312.msg344219#msg344219 but got no replies.
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Yeah I have been toying with the idea of just writing our own rules for the Matrix, Rigging / vehicle chases and barriers.
They are the three sections of the rules that are horribly borked and just don't work imho.