Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: ScytheKnight on (02:37:40/06-18-15)

Title: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: ScytheKnight on (02:37:40/06-18-15)
Well, this is one of those situations of WTH are we supposed to look at for prices...

Working on a character and am putting together the armor including a Ballistic Mask which I felt could do with some additional sensors to increase data for the character, especially as it has a datajack to DNI all this sensor data.

Thinh is, what are the prices for this kind of thing? For example I can install an Olfactory Sensor for [1] Capacity... the question is how much does an actual Olfactory Sensor like this cost? are we using them from Sensors P445 in which case it's Rating X 100 for a single sensor, or do we take it from Augmentations, in which case it's Rating x 4,000... which needless to say is a MASSIVE difference for a rating 6, or even 8 Olfactory Senser compare to an Olfactory Booster... and the description of Olfactory Sensor states to treat it just like the Booster augmentation...
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (02:42:40/06-18-15)
You use normal (cheap) sensors. But be aware, that your mask has a limited size, so you won't be able to install a rating higher than 2 or 3, limiting it's usefulness.
The cyberware stuff is always more expensive (Just compare smartlink for your glasses to smartlink for your eyes...)
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: ScytheKnight on (02:46:20/06-18-15)
huh... is that coming from the table on P446?

SENSOR HOUSINGS
SENSOR
PACKAGE
MAX
SENSOR
RATING
RFID, audio or visual device, headware 2
Handheld device, small (or smaller) drone 3
etc.

This type of stuff is why I actually discouraged my players away from Riggers (as sensor suites are an important part of spy/overwatch drones) so much of this stuff is just insanely confusing.

from what I can work out... this would use the 'headware' sized housing thus be limited to rating 2, costing 200 and providing +2 to olfactory perception tests yes?
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (02:56:12/06-18-15)
Nope, that would allow you to make olfactory perception tests with your perception or electronic warfare skill and be limited to two successes...
yeah, that is pretty crappy.

If you integrate one in your armor you could at least get a rating of 3.

These kind of sensors are more useful for stuff you can't stealth like cyberware or millimeter wave scanners
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on (03:28:35/06-18-15)
Nope, that would allow you to make olfactory perception tests with your perception or electronic warfare skill and be limited to two successes...
yeah, that is pretty crappy.

If you integrate one in your armor you could at least get a rating of 3.

These kind of sensors are more useful for stuff you can't stealth like cyberware or millimeter wave scanners

Totally wrong! That's like saying that Vision Enhancement limits your Visual Perception tests to 3... basically a ludicrous statement.

ScytheKnight... you can put a Senor Rating 2 in the Ballistic Mask. You use the Sensor chart (pg 446) not the Augmentation chart (pg 452). It will give a +2 bonus to any Smell Perception Test the Limit is still Mental... it doesn't provide a Limit increase like Vision/Audio do.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (06:22:14/06-18-15)
You are mixing up cyberware that costs essence with sensors and sensor suits that you access through AR.

Relevant rule on p.184

"To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor Test. Characters roll Perception + Intuition [Sensor], vehicles roll Pilot + Clearsight [Sensor]. If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the
target’s Infiltration + Agility [Physical] (metahumans, critters), Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles), or Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] (drones)."
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: ScytheKnight on (06:36:48/06-18-15)
On the other hand that's a sensor for a drone or vehicle rather than a sensor on a piece of equipment being accessed via a DNI...
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (06:54:55/06-18-15)
How else do you access the sensor of a drone?

If you want the goodies you have to pay extra cash and essence  ;D
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (06:56:55/06-18-15)
Jack_Spade
To be fair, I think you're mixing up the usage of Vehicle Sensors with that of enhancements. The OP isn't accessing a drone sensor; he's accessing an olfactory enhancement installed in a mask, similar to vision and audio enhancements.

Quote from: SR5 page 446
Olfactory scanner: The olfactory sensor picks up and analyzes the molecules in the air. It works in the same way as the olfactory booster cyberware.

Quote from: SR5 page 452
Olfactory Booster: This cybersnout enhances, identifies, and records smells, and can play them back later. The massively enhanced olfactory capabilities of a sniffer open up a whole new world of sensory data to you - you’ll be able to sense things that ordinarily only a scenthound would. You can smell people’s emotions in their sweat (and if applicable, the maker’s mark of their tailored pheromones), traces of ammunition propellant, explosives, or biological and chemical warfare compounds - the list goes on and on. A cut-off function allows you to completely ignore intense odors, possibly the most convenient feature for use in your daily life. The olfactory booster can even be used in VR to create an even more immersive experience. Add the booster’s rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests.

The above is more similar to audio and video enhancements than it is to a sensor.

Quote from: SR5 page 444
This sharpens a character’s vision at all ranges, providing visual acuity closer to that of the average hawk than that of the average metahuman. It adds its Rating as a positive modifier to your limit on visual Perception Tests. Wireless: Add the vision enhancement’s rating as a dice pool modifier to your visual Perception Tests.

To the OP:
I'd argue that a ballistic mask is as large as or even larger than a handheld device, so I'd say you could put a Rating 3 sensor in your mask. As always, check with your GM.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (07:03:28/06-18-15)
I see your argument.
But even if you grant the bonus dice (as a GM I'd allow it) you are still limited by the sensor rating.
The olfactory booster is not listed with the audio and video enhancements but with the sensor functions.
Also the cited text is from the rigger chapter, but it is not limited to drones and vehicles.

Otherwise you could argue, that a simple sensor tag on your helmet is enough to provide you with limitless perception, because you "DNI access it".

Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on (09:48:38/06-18-15)
I see your argument.
But even if you grant the bonus dice (as a GM I'd allow it) you are still limited by the sensor rating.
The olfactory booster is not listed with the audio and video enhancements but with the sensor functions.
Also the cited text is from the rigger chapter, but it is not limited to drones and vehicles.

Otherwise you could argue, that a simple sensor tag on your helmet is enough to provide you with limitless perception, because you "DNI access it".

Still wrong even having the exact descriptions pointed out to you... nifty. What part of "works in the same way as Olfactory Booster cyberware" confuses you??? The part where it works just like the Olfactory Booster cyberware or the part where it works just like the Olfactory Booster cyberware? I'm curious...
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (09:56:31/06-18-15)
No need to get aggressive:

It's a sensor, yes?
Sensors are governed by the rules on p.182
That means, their rating applys as limit to perception tests.
Visual and Audio Enhancements are not sensors, their rating is added to your mental limit

The olfactory sensor is not listed in the enhancement table but in the sensor write up, together with other special sensors like millimeter wave, cyberware scanner and weather forecast.

You may get your +2 to the check, but you still are limited by the rating, since there is no exception mentioned and the general rule on sensor functions takes precedence.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:02:01/06-18-15)
I'd say there's two ways of reading "works in the same way as the olfactory booster cyberware", neither of them wrong.

1. Cyberware rules take precedence, as this is a special rule that overrides the general rules for sensors
2. Cyberware rules do not take precedence, as the olfactory sensor is still a sensor

Without further information from the book, any argument of the above boils down to interpretation. As always; ask your GM. :D
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Jack_Spade on (11:16:23/06-18-15)
Well said ;)
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (11:26:03/06-18-15)
I_AM_ZHOUL!!!, I meant to ask you for awhile now; Why do you keep using "!!!" and "???" in your posts? It give most your posts a very hostile tone.


What part of "works in the same way as Olfactory Booster cyberware" confuses you???

The crunch you are talking about is this sentence:

SR5 p. 452 Olfactory Booster
Add the booster’s rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests


You have a solid argument that it will add the booster’s rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests, just like the chrome version.

What Jack_Spade is saying is that there are general rules for using a sensor. The Olfactory Scanner is not something you put on your nose, you might as well place it on the back of your hand or in your belt. Its a sensor.

As always in SR5 rules are spread out all over the book. The Olfactory Scanner is described briefly on p. 446 but more in detail on p. 365 and also under Olfactory Booster on p. 452. There are also some rules for them under Gas Delivery Systems on p. 366.


Sensor Rules are unnecessary complex and to be honest it is one part of the rules I'm not fully up to date on; but on p. 445 there is an interesting notation about Sensor Arrays that might or might not be relevant for this topic.

SR5 p. 445 Sensors
When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor's Rating as your limit.

If this does not apply (because we are talking about a single sensor and not a sensor array or what not) then we need to go back to the rules in the combat chapter.

SR5 p. 184 Sensor Attacks
To detect a person, critter, or vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor Test. Characters roll Perception + Intuition  [Sensor]

Together with:

SR5 p. 452 Olfactory Booster
Add the booster’s rating as a dice pool modifier to your scent-based Perception Tests


To detect explosives or ammunition rather than a person, critter, or vehicle you follow rules on p. 365

SR5 p. 365 Olfactory Scanner
Also known as chemical detector systems or chemsniffers, analyse molecules in the air for nitrogen-rich particles like those given off by explosives or firearm ammunition. To detect explosives or ammunition, roll a dice pool equal to the chemsniffer's rating against a threshold of 2 (3 if the explosives/ammo are hermetically sealed). Apply modifiers as noted on the Chemical Detection Modifiers table.


To detect the difference between a metahuman and an animal or pinpoint gender you use the rules on p. 366

SR5 p. 366 Olfactory Sensor
...In order to pick up a scent, the scanner rolls its Device Rating against a threshold of 3 (2 for characters with tailored pheromone bioware).


It can also be used to detect gas;

SR5 p. 366 Gas Delivery System
...The gamemaster may secretly conduct Perception Tests to see if any characters notice the gas, basing the threshold on how noticeable the gas is (many gases are colorless and odorless). Characters equipped with an Olfactory Scanner (see p. 452) may be alerted by their gear.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:27:38/06-18-15)
Well said ;)
Thank you.

I think this is one example of the rules being unclear, particularly where sensors are concerned.

Quote from: SR5 page 445 (emphasis mine)
Sensors need to be placed in a housing or case of some sort, or built into another device. Sensors can record data themselves or forward it wirelessly in real-time or as files to other devices. Sensors are available in seven ratings (2–8) and two types: single and array. When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor’s Rating as your limit.

RAW is that these rules only apply for sensor arrays and not single sensors, but it is my opinion that they should also apply to the latter. RAW is also that you "may" use the rating as your Limit, which implies that you have a choice. This would be beneficial in situations where your Mental Limit is higher than the rating of the sensor or vice versa, but it's this kind of grammatical ambiguity that makes it difficult to get a clear understanding of the rules both as written and intended.

For what it's worth, I personally think a character with an olfactory sensor should get the same benefit as the visual and audio enhancements, but that this ruling does raise the issue of cost. A rating 2 sensor is 200¥ while the equivalent enhancement is 1000¥. To make it simple, I would personally houserule an olfactory enhancement that would have the same function as the olfactory sensor, but the same cost as the enhancement. Any device capable of taking another enhancements (armor, headgear, visual and audio devices) would also be capable of taking the olfactory enhancement, but I would also require DNI to use it.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (11:33:17/06-18-15)
I would house rule that you can use either mental or sensor as limit and either electronic warfare or perception to detect a person, critter or vehicle. With a positive dice pool bonus of device rating.

Rules to detect a scent or explosives are clear.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Rooks on (11:36:02/06-18-15)
Ok so ultrasound sensor, how does that work? can you put it in a single sensor array and its rating is 1-6 cost rating x 12 000 and you can use electronic warfare in place of perception? how does this differ from the cyberware? and does it like like vision enchancement where if its wireless off it acts like the limit to the perception tests and if its wireless on it adds as a dice pool to perception tests?
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Rooks on (11:42:49/06-18-15)
I_AM_ZHOUL!!!, I meant to ask you for awhile now; Why do you keep using "!!!" and "???" in your post
Because he's ZHOUL!!! MFer :P

To detect explosives or ammunition, roll a dice pool equal to the chemsniffer's rating against a threshold of 2 (3 if the explosives/ammo are hermetically sealed). Apply modifiers as noted on the Chemical Detection Modifiers table. [/I]
Ya and then run and gun makes thinks further complicated incorperating a hermetically sealed steel case that takes away dice from those scanners test to sense explosives

Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (13:43:54/06-18-15)
Speaking as someone who installs industrial sensors for a living, a "sensor array" is just a collection of sensors in a single housing..... or its just a single sensor in an easily mounted container.


Don't get padentic over a single word. It doesn't help you or the argument.

Generally speaking, sensors are sold in two states: array form and componet form.

Array form: comes in a nice robust casing, is easy to mount mount and install, and easy to connect.

Componet form: used only to replace the damaged internals of an array sensor. Often is just a jumble of wires, SS device, and other funky bits. They then require you to install them into an approved housing or container in order to actually work right. (Which is why you buy an array for your initial installation, then buy sensors for repair/replacement for those arrays when they fail)


Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (13:49:25/06-18-15)
Here is another way to look at it.

You have an array in your house right now. (And if you don't, WTF IS WRING WITH YOU!?! GO GET ONE!!!)

Its called a fire alarm. Yes, that annoying thing in your hall that goes off every time you burn the toast is a sensor array - a robust container around a sensor. The actual sensor inside that housing is about the size of your finger nail. (Don't believe me, go buy one and crack it open. All there is, is a few wires leading to an SS device.)
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (15:07:56/06-18-15)
Ok so ultrasound sensor, how does that work?
Ultrasound sensor is a sensor that work in the same way as all other sensors....


and does it like like vision enchancement where if its wireless off it acts like the limit to the perception tests and if its wireless on it adds as a dice pool to perception tests?
What?


.."sensor array" ...
Would that mean that when you use your sensor you can choose use perception or electronic warfare skill.
And you can choose to either limit it by your mental rating or the sensor's device rating.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (15:19:08/06-18-15)
Don't get padentic over a single word. It doesn't help you or the argument.
I don't think anyone was...
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (15:53:33/06-18-15)
Xenon: how the RL relates to ficton is anyone's guess.

My point was that the word "array" is a misnomer. An "array" in RL is just a housing unit that holds 1 or more sensors. That is it.

Arguing over a "senor array" VS "a sensor" (by real life terms) is arguing over the same thing.

For SR, the only thing i can think of why they would possibly be different would be a micro-management detail...

That detail would be: you install a "sensor" into something that comes prepackaged with an "array". Which (again based off RL experience) would be things like commlinks, drones, and vehicles.

You would then use the "array" part when attaching a sensor to an item or object that doesn't normally come with a sensor of that kind. (No such thing as a 'universal' housing for a sensor, they are built to the sensor specs.) Such as the ballastic mask in this example.

●●●●
Again, the rules are about as clear as mud, but this seems a little too.... micro-management for everything else they have laid out and feel (personally) that this is another "edit error" that plagued the release. I think the original authur had more info, but the page count won out, and in an effort to shorten it, they didn't clean this area up as goid as they should of.

Long story short: "sensor" and "sensor array" can be used almost interchangably
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Rooks on (00:19:49/06-19-15)
Ok so ultrasound sensor, how does that work?
Ultrasound sensor is a sensor that work in the same way as all other sensors....


and does it like like vision enchancement where if its wireless off it acts like the limit to the perception tests and if its wireless on it adds as a dice pool to perception tests?
What?

Ultrasound: The ultrasound accessory consists of an
emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and
a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to
create a topographic ultrasound map. Ultrasound is perfect
to “see” textures, calculate distances between objects,
and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked
eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell), it can’t
handle colors or brightness. It also can’t penetrate materials
like glass that would be transparent to optical sensors.
You can set it to a passive mode, where it doesn’t
emit ultrasonic pulses but still picks up ultrasound from
outside sources, such as motion sensors or someone
else’s ultrasound sensors on active mode (or bats).

Ultrasound Sensor (Rating 1–6) 0.25 [2] 10 Rating x 12,000¥

Ultrasound Sensor: This cyberware is exactly like the
ultrasound sensor. When active, it replaces your normal
vision. It can be switched between active sonar, passive
sonar, and off with a Free Action.

Why does the Ultrasound Sensor have a rating of 1-6 and a capacity of 2?
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (01:37:06/06-19-15)
Off the cuff?

Because, as it states, there is both an emitter and a receiver, 2 seperate devices, thus 2 cap when installing in cybereyes or a device like googles.

As for the rating, see the rules above.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (03:25:36/06-19-15)
Why does the Ultrasound Sensor have a rating of 1-6 ...
Because you can use the rating as limit instead of your mental limit, just like all other sensors.


... and a capacity of 2?
You can either install the sensor in your head for 0.25 essence.
Or you can install the sensor in a cyberlimb taking [2] capacity.


...thus 2 cap when installing in cybereyes ...
Ultrasound is not a vision enhancement, it is head ware.
You can only install it in your head or in a cyberlimb. Not in your eyes.

And the Ultrasound Sensor function can be installed in a handheld device that you keep at your belt or whatever. You don't have to install it in your goggles at all. It is not a vision enhancement.


SR5 p. 451 Headware
Items that have a Capacity Cost [in brackets] may be installed in cyberlimbs instead, costing Capacity rather than Essence.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (10:35:38/06-19-15)
Meh, i have allowed them in eyes just due to the fact they subvert your normal vision when used.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (11:03:27/06-19-15)
Eyes and cyberlimbs don't follow the same capacity scale.
[2] capacity in eyes is not at all the same as [2] capacity in a cyberlimb (but i understand your reasoning).

Also, could make more sense to add them to ears rather than eyes (since you listen to the reflection of the ultra sound you send out). Your "eyes" actually go "blind" (you don't get any sensory input from your eyes) while using the ultrasound sensor headware augmentation.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Kiirnodel on (14:40:39/06-19-15)
Think the scene from Dark Knight when he activates the cell-phone sonar system. Two displays come down and cover his eyes so that he can see the display for the system.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: KarmaInferno on (19:08:49/06-20-15)
Did they explicitly make Ultrasound so you can't use other senses while active in 5th?

Because previously you could layer the wireframe 3D data over your other vision modes.



-k
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (20:12:57/06-20-15)
SR5 p. 452 Ultrasound Sensor
When active, it replaces your normal vision.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: KarmaInferno on (15:25:33/06-23-15)
Well.

That's just stupid.



-k
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Triskavanski on (21:05:06/06-23-15)
Now the question remains if you can use Ultrasound as a blind person, if it was implanted or some such.

Changelings do at least got something.
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (01:38:26/06-24-15)
There is actually a story out there with that exact thing.

Was the 4e "fashion" book.

Story focused on a Runner turned bodyguard some tween pop music star, or some such. He ends up taking down a totally innocent fan cause of the kid's "constant perv stare". Turns out the kid was born without eye receptors or some shit, making normal cybereyes a no-go, so the kid was using ultra sound to move about in crowds, and attributed to his "creeper stare"
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Xenon on (03:25:31/06-24-15)
Now the question remains if you can use Ultrasound as a blind person, if it was implanted or some such.
You can use Ultrasound Sensor Augmentation as a blind person. You can also use Astral Perception as a blind person. Neither use your actual eyes. Both replace your normal "vision".
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Rooks on (10:49:19/06-24-15)
Real life application how blind person uses echolocation (ultrasound) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLPEcu6523Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLPEcu6523Q)
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Dal Thrax on (13:48:33/06-24-15)
So a Ghoul could use an ultrasound sensor and a trode net to help with the entire blindness thing?
Title: Re: Adding Sensors to Ballistic Mask
Post by: Reaver on (14:34:14/06-24-15)
Yes he could.

But keep in mind ghouls are dual natured, thus usually using astral sight if its physicailly blind.