Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: UnLimiTeD on <06-15-15/0903:03>
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So, if a TM aquires a Datajack, a nice implanted one, and plugs that into a device he wants to connect to, say, a host, can he still thread?
I know he can't with that new Echo, but that's meant to allow resonance actions through cyberdecks.
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You can't jack to a host, but a device on that host. I've no idea on RAW as it's completely vague, but I'd argue that your living persona could use your headware DJ to directly connect to a device (that's potentially part of a WAN giving you a shortcut to the host). You'd probably be better of spending your first 13 karma on skinlink though and then you just touch he device and don't have to give up a point of resonance.
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A common bit of confusion to people is what exactly a living persona is. People seem to think "You hax the matrix wif UR brainz." However what it really is, is you are connecting to the Matrix with your Resonance. Its that nebulous "I don't want to say magic...but magic" thing that makes Technomancers...well..Technomancers. Much like even with implanted simsense rigs, magicians can't allow people to experience what its like to astrally project your resonant soul is viewing the Matrix like a mage using Astral Perception, or you are projecting your resonant soul into the Matrix like a mage would astrally project. You can use Trodes and a Datajack, but that only lets your -brain- connect with the Matrix and your brain is not the goopy housing for your Resonance.
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So, if a TM aquires a Datajack, a nice implanted one, and plugs that into a device he wants to connect to, say, a host, can he still thread?
The only reason for a TM to ever get a datajack is if she for some reason want to use a device based persona rather than her living persona.
A host is a matrix-only entity. You cannot plug your datajack (or rather your cyberdeck) into a host.
A wireless enabled device can be slaved to a host. In that case the device use host ratings when defending (unless you are directly connected to the device). If you get a mark on the wireless enabled slaved device then you also get a mark on the master.
A TM that want to establish a direct connection with a wireless enabled slaved device to bypass master ratings would either enter the host (you are considered directly connected to all devices slaved to the host) or get the skin link echo and physically touch the device.
A third option would be to go old school.... Get a cyberdeck, base the persona on that instead of using the living persona and connect the cyberdeck (not the datajack) directly to the device (with a wire). This can be done from AR perfectly fine without a datajack (using image link, AR glove and ear buds). With a datajack (or trodes) it can still be done in AR but it can also be done from cold- and hot-sim VR (without image link, AR gloves and ear buds).
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Well, I meant hacking a device with weaker ratings to get access, which to my knowledge requires a wired connection.
I mean, there's no reason not to get Cerebral boosters, so have an essence gap to fill.
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That is what skin link echo is for......
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I think I'd rather buy a deck than waste an Echo for that.
Pool only allows one submersion per 75 karma, so the char will at best get one before being shelved.
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Pool?
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75 karma will get you 4 submersions with 5 left over. You can submerge twice more before you need to raise your resonance. TM's get horked, but not that badly ;)
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*sighs* can SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE release a fragging official errata for that submersion typo already?!
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So, if a TM aquires a Datajack, a nice implanted one, and plugs that into a device he wants to connect to, say, a host, can he still thread?
A TM that want to establish a direct connection with a wireless enabled slaved device to bypass master ratings would either enter the host (you are considered directly connected to all devices slaved to the host) or get the skin link echo and physically touch the device.
Could a TM use a Data tap for this purpose?
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*sighs* can SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE release a fragging official errata for that submersion typo already?!
I'm less and less sure its a typo did Bull even include it in the Missions doc?
I'm fairly sure whoever is making the editing big picture calls is working very hard to keep tech in the lead in 5th.
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*sighs* can SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE release a fragging official errata for that submersion typo already?!
I'm less and less sure its a typo did Bull even include it in the Missions doc?
I'm fairly sure whoever is making the editing big picture calls is working very hard to keep tech in the lead in 5th.
yes, it;'s clearly mentioned in the missions FAQ, but a lot of people ignore that.
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A common bit of confusion to people is what exactly a living persona is. People seem to think "You hax the matrix wif UR brainz." However what it really is, is you are connecting to the Matrix with your Resonance. Its that nebulous "I don't want to say magic...but magic" thing that makes Technomancers...well..Technomancers. Much like even with implanted simsense rigs, magicians can't allow people to experience what its like to astrally project your resonant soul is viewing the Matrix like a mage using Astral Perception, or you are projecting your resonant soul into the Matrix like a mage would astrally project. You can use Trodes and a Datajack, but that only lets your -brain- connect with the Matrix and your brain is not the goopy housing for your Resonance.
Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
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Could a TM use a Data tap for this purpose?
No.
A TM can use a data tap to wireless access a device that is wireless off (because the owner turned wireless off, the device is wired or because the device is a throwback), but it will not count as a direct connection for the purpose of ignoring master ratings.
Having said that, a device that is wireless off will by definition not be slaved to a host (ever). A host is a matrix only entity. Only wireless enabled devices can be slaved to a host.
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A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect.
No.
A TM using her Living Persona will only be considered directly connected if she use Skin Link Echo or -depending on your reading- is inside the host the device is slaved to. This have been asked and answered.
She can also use a device based persona and connect the target device directly with her cyberdeck. No need for DNI (data jack, trodes etc) to do this as long as she don't do it from cold- or hot-sim VR.
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Could a TM use a Data tap for this purpose?
No.
A TM can use a data tap to wireless access a device that is wireless off (because the owner turned wireless off, the device is wired or because the device is a throwback), but it will not count as a direct connection for the purpose of ignoring master ratings.
Having said that, a device that is wireless off will by definition not be slaved to a host (ever). A host is a matrix only entity. Only wireless enabled devices can be slaved to a host.
I call bullshit here as a Data Tap explicitly states that it creates a direct connection, that's what it's there for!
Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to
a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can
use it via universal data connector. Any device directly
connected to the data tap also has a direct connection
with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct
Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. The tap can be removed
without damaging the cable.
Technomancer places Data Tap on a cable. Technomancer touches Data Tap with Skinlink echo. Technomancer has direct connection to devices at either end of the cable.
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A common bit of confusion to people is what exactly a living persona is. People seem to think "You hax the matrix wif UR brainz." However what it really is, is you are connecting to the Matrix with your Resonance. Its that nebulous "I don't want to say magic...but magic" thing that makes Technomancers...well..Technomancers. Much like even with implanted simsense rigs, magicians can't allow people to experience what its like to astrally project your resonant soul is viewing the Matrix like a mage using Astral Perception, or you are projecting your resonant soul into the Matrix like a mage would astrally project. You can use Trodes and a Datajack, but that only lets your -brain- connect with the Matrix and your brain is not the goopy housing for your Resonance.
Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
Sometimes get so lost in the Fluff they lose track of what the Crunch is saying. Of course a TM who has a Datajack can bypass the Hosts Rating when hacking a Device... that's the whole point of the Skin link Echo. Honestly TMs should get the Skinlink as a standard ability in Chargen & not have it be an Echo but that's a separate discussion.
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I think I'd rather buy a deck...
Then you must use your device based persona.
If you want to use your living persona them you first have to reboot your cyberdeck, losing your marks on the device and the host.
A TM using her Living Persona and got access to cleaner and/or static can gain a mark on a host many many hours before a run start (Trying Again or resting between attempts). Once a decker get his mark on the host he got maybe 45 minutes before he need to reboot or risk convergence.....
Different play styles.
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Of course a TM who has a Datajack can bypass the Hosts Rating when hacking a Device...
No.
that's the whole point of the Skin link Echo.
You are confusing me.
The point of skinlink is to establish a direct connection (because a TM cannot do that with a physical cable if she want to still use her living persona).
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Could a TM use a Data tap for this purpose?
No.
A TM can use a data tap to wireless access a device that is wireless off (because the owner turned wireless off, the device is wired or because the device is a throwback), but it will not count as a direct connection for the purpose of ignoring master ratings.
Having said that, a device that is wireless off will by definition not be slaved to a host (ever). A host is a matrix only entity. Only wireless enabled devices can be slaved to a host.
I call bullshit here as a Data Tap explicitly states that it creates a direct connection, that's what it's there for!
Data Tap: You use this hacking tool by attaching it to
a data cable. Once it’s clamped onto the cable, you can
use it via universal data connector. Any device directly
connected to the data tap also has a direct connection
with the devices on either end of the cable (see Direct
Connections, p. 232) and vice versa. The tap can be removed
without damaging the cable.
Technomancer places Data Tap on a cable. Technomancer touches Data Tap with Skinlink echo. Technomancer has direct connection to devices at either end of the cable.
He was asking if a TM could use a data tap to get direct connection (without having skinlink).
That a TM can get a direct connection if she have a skinlink is not something anyone is contesting.
If he asked if aTM with skinlink can get a direct connection by touching a device (such as a data tap that either is connected directly into the universal access port of a device or attached to a wire between the universal access port of two devices or by directly touching a device) then the answer is; Yes.
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Pool?
The Pool Group I'm occasionally playing in (by the time I got into SR, 5 was just out and barely any fixed groups around) only allows submersions and initiations for every 75/100 career karma, so a second echo would require me to play some 20 runs.
I've never even gotten 5 with a single char. They tend to die, or prove useless.
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A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect.
No.
A TM using her Living Persona will only be considered directly connected if she use Skin Link Echo or -depending on your reading- is inside the host the device is slaved to. This have been asked and answered.
She can also use a device based persona and connect the target device directly with her cyberdeck. No need for DNI (data jack, trodes etc) to do this as long as she don't do it from cold- or hot-sim VR.
What?
Where has this been asked and answered?
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A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect.
No.
A TM using her Living Persona will only be considered directly connected if she use Skin Link Echo or -depending on your reading- is inside the host the device is slaved to. This have been asked and answered.
She can also use a device based persona and connect the target device directly with her cyberdeck. No need for DNI (data jack, trodes etc) to do this as long as she don't do it from cold- or hot-sim VR.
What?
Where has this been asked and answered?
I would also really like to know where that was asked and answered. It's a question that been discussed repeatedly with no useful conclusion.
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That there, at the time of the answer, wasn't a way for TMs to directly connect to a device the same way a decker could by using a wire between his deck and the slaved device?
I'm on a mobile device right now but i can try to search for it....
(With the release of DT TMs do have a way though)
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Here it is (one of them):
Question: is there an alternative to cable for TMs? It seems there is no way for them to connect to a device directly.
Since technomancers can't use cable, they're stuck with satellite TV. Just kidding.
There's no such ability in the core rules. There's a non-zero chance that something like the echo in SR4's Unwired that allows techomancers to directly connect by touching a device might make an appearance in a future source book.
And two years later it turned out he was correct.
There is now a skinlink echo in DT.
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Well a technomancer cant use any ware.
Or rather, they can. But players tend to say cant becayse it goes against the resonance value. No where in that quote does anyone say the datajack will not work at all for a technomancer.
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TMs didn't have a way to get a direct connection similar to deckers. Now they do.
No where in that quote does anyone say the datajack will not work at all for a technomancer.
Of course datajack will work for Technomancers if they want to have a private conversation with someone within one meter that also have a datajack, provide 1 point of noise reduction to their devices or to give them DNI so they can enter VR if they for some reason base their persona on a device rather than using their Living Persona.
Please provide me with a quote or page reference to any SR5 book where it say (or even hint) that Technomancers can use datajack (or trodes) to establish a direct connection to a device with their Living Persona to avoid host ratings (they can't).
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Wonderful little falacy there. But its right there on page 232, data jacks have the ability to create a direct connection.
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While I read it sort of like that until now, the question would then be what the hell the skinlink echo would be for if it grants you the equivalent of a trodenet and a data tap.
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Descrite tapping into devices without a whole bunch of wires or running wireless.
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Wonderful little falacy there. But its right there on page 232, data jacks have the ability to create a direct connection.
Connecting your brain to a device via a datajack does not give you a persona with a sleaze or attack rating to hack devices. It just give you DNI to the device over a wired link. You can for example use this direct connection to change mode of a device as a mental free action rather than a simple action. You can use this link to get information from your smartgun to your internal smartlink so you gain +2 accuracy and can use the onboard camera to fire around corners without taking the blind modifier. You can also use it to securely communicate with another person and without noise interference.
A Decker can form a device based persona on a cyberdeck and connect it's wire to the universal data connector of a device to ignore master ratings (a datajack must not be used unless the decker want to go cold- or hot-sim VR).
- A decker cannot hack a device with just a datajack. They need their cyberdeck and they need their cyberdeck to be directly connected to the device they are hacking (by attaching a physical cable between their cyberdeck and the device).
A Technomancer can use their living persona and a skinlink echo to forge a direct connection with any device they physically touch to ignore master ratings (a datajack must not be used unless the TM want to use a device based persona and go cold- or hot-sim VR).
- A technomancer have no use at all for a datajack when hacking. They need their living persona and they need their living persona to be directly connected to the device they are hacking (by living persona echo and physically touch the device)
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Hi hope this doesn't just muddy the waters and is all fluff no crunch but the Otacu could use living personas though data jacks I know there aren't any rules for Otaku in this editions and I've even heard some people say there aren't any left but I know of at lest one in canon (The Dodger) who has become a technomancer and the quality Otaku to Technomancer seems to suggest there are others just seems wired that techno would have lost this ability
that being said every thing I've read suggests that they aren't supposed to be able to
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Ok Xenon I'm busy hoping to start calling BS on all this stuff until you start quoting exactly where it says all this stuff because it's just sounding like your own personal translation of something.
It is clearly stated that you can't use a deck to bridge into a device for direct access. But I see no reason that a technomancer can't use a datajack to gain direct access to a device, and by extension the host it's connected to.
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Well, there's this bit:
The Subject: Machine Sprites and Diagnostics
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7. Technically a repeat of 6, but its the one I actually care about so I want to be extra sure. Can a Technomancer use Diagnostics on Trodes or a Satellite Uplink to gain the benefits on their Living Persona while using those Trodes or Satellite Uplink with their Living Persona.
7. No, because you can't use trodes or a satellite uplink on your living persona. You're either using your Resonance abilities or you're not.
So if they have no Living Persona, what persona do they have?
One might argue that a Datajack is different from Trodes, but... is it really?
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You know what, I'm going to flip the dynamic here. While there is nothing to prove Xenon right in this reguard, there is nothing to prove him wrong either. Which is pretty much what he's going for. But I'm going to take his arguments, and what Aaron said there one step further.
Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.
You have to form a device persona to use any device, which means that commlinks cannot be used by technomancers. You might has well have a metalink, because that thing is nothing more than a fancy paper weight in the hands of a technomancer. To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device. You can only form one persona however.
Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.
As always, you're welcome to change things at your table, but the lack of mentioning ownership in the core discussion of Matrix Perception and the explicit exclusion of it in DT is by design. Ownership isn't linked to SIN (because in a game about SINless criminals who own lots of toys, that would be a real problem), it's linked to persona. If I could look at an icon and determine its owner, then all sorts of security SOP for runners goes out the window. The persona from your burner link will be identifiable as the same as the persona from your Rating 7 link.
Which means if a technomancer owns something on his device based persona, he will not be considered to be the owner while on his living persona and vice versa. Which of course results in all sorts of different little struggles.
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You know what, I'm going to flip the dynamic here. While there is nothing to prove Xenon right in this reguard, there is nothing to prove him wrong either. Which is pretty much what he's going for. But I'm going to take his arguments, and what Aaron said there one step further.
Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.
You have to form a device persona to use any device, which means that commlinks cannot be used by technomancers. You might has well have a metalink, because that thing is nothing more than a fancy paper weight in the hands of a technomancer. To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device. You can only form one persona however.
Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.
As always, you're welcome to change things at your table, but the lack of mentioning ownership in the core discussion of Matrix Perception and the explicit exclusion of it in DT is by design. Ownership isn't linked to SIN (because in a game about SINless criminals who own lots of toys, that would be a real problem), it's linked to persona. If I could look at an icon and determine its owner, then all sorts of security SOP for runners goes out the window. The persona from your burner link will be identifiable as the same as the persona from your Rating 7 link.
Which means if a technomancer owns something on his device based persona, he will not be considered to be the owner while on his living persona and vice versa. Which of course results in all sorts of different little struggles.
Welcome to the wonderful world of TMs.... they are MAD in Chargen, have to specialize in one of 3 roles to be good at something, inferior to Deckers in raw ability/versatility, with wonky/vague/conflicting Rule Sets!!!!! But hey you get to do "Matrix Magic" with your Resonant Soul as someone described it... I avoid this Character like the hot mess it is and will actively lobby anyone against playing one ever. Unless you're an experienced player who just wants to experience that unique frustration that comes when you character just can't do the shit he's supposed to be a wizard at!!!!! But you get cute Sprites... and if you are happy being a Beastmaster who doesn't like to do his own actions but have your minions perform all your actions for you.... ENJOY!!!!!!
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Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.
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Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.
By the Rules TMs don't do anything with the Matrix as it is set up. The simplest solution is to just chuck the whole hot mess & treat it explicitly as Fluff. Treat their Living Persona as their PAN & Matrix Attributes & move on (give them Skinlink as a basic ability as well.) Otherwise if you are going to Rules Lawyer it then just commit to being a Rules Lawyer about so everyone knows not to bother with them. Make them have all kinds of problems with Ownership & Interactions through their wireless Devices who can't technically connect to the Living Persona under the Rules Set. They are supposed to be these Matrix Magicians who feel the code... but have it exist through Devices to function in the world except for these brief moments of freedom where they get to be TMs before going back to existing through a Commlink to order a chessseburger.
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Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.
The argument was that they could use one to form a direct connection, not form a pan. The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans. Even a decker couldn't use his persona to forma pan, but he could use his deck to.
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The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans.
Oooookaaay, sure we'll go with that.
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Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.
Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.
The argument was that they could use one to form a direct connection, not form a pan. The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans. Even a decker couldn't use his persona to forma pan, but he could use his deck to.
Hence the only way I'd ever play a TM in this cut & paste wonky system that doesn't work with the Matrix is if it was all chucked into the garbage where it belongs!!!!!!! The entire TM class needs to be rebuilt from the ground out to fix it... it already MAD & Skill & Resonance dependent!!!!! They are super extra special cool in the Fluff... then you get to the Crunch and it all falls apart. Half the builds in Character Creation are tecnnos.... cause people really want to play them buy nobody can figure out how.
Make the TMs Mind count as his Deck (that can't run programs or have modifications... sadly I realized I had to write that or the next 3 comments would involve that point) for Rules purposes.... Problem Solved!!! Well they still have a ton of other problems but now they can at least operate the Matrix in a normal manner. If the designers were just lazy... sad, if they actually tried... sad. Leave all the cool fluff to explain what the TM is doing but let the Rules function the same.
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The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans.
Oooookaaay, sure we'll go with that.
There isn't any.. "Ooooookaaaay"
It specifically says it right here on page 233 that only devices can be part of a wan or lan. Not persona.
Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN In a WAN, the slaves must be devices, and the master must be a host.
Thus if a Decker forms a persona on his deck, he'll have lower matrix attributes. And while the Deck could be part of a Pan/Wan, the persona is still using the attributes of the deck itself. Preventing you from doing something like having a rating six commlink forming a pan with your persona so you could put the deck's fire wall down low and increase the firewall via the commlink. However to use a commlink you have to form a persona on it, and since you can only use one persona at a time—well, you get the idea.
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1) SR5 PAN is nothing like SR4 PAN.
2) You cannot slave a device directly to your persona. You slave devices to a device (such as a commlink - a decker can not slave devices to his device based persona nor can a Technomancer slave her devices to her living persona).
3) You don't have to base your persona on the master device in your PAN (many do, but a decker would probably slave his devices to his high firewall commlink where he also broadcast his fake SIN but base his persona on his cyberdeck and a TM would probably slave her devices to her high firewall commlink where she also broadcast her fake SIN but use her living persona).
4) You can control any wireless device you are the owner of no matter if they are slaved to your master device or not (you don't need to slave your firearm to your master device if you want to eject the clip as a free mental action - wireless and some way of controlling devices is enough; such as wearing trodes or simply being a TM).
5) TM interact with devices without the use of gizmos. They don't need (and cannot even use) trodes together with their living persona. They don't need (and cannot even use) a sim module on a device to experience AR and VR with their living persona.
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Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.
TMs cannot slave devices to their living persona.
A decker cannot slave devices to their device based persona, either.
A TM can form a PAN by slaving a device to another device.
A decker can form a PAN by slaving a device to another device.
Please give me a reference that say you must base your persona on the master device in a PAN in order for your devices to stay slaved.
You have to form a device persona to use any device
No you don't. You need a persona and you need to be the legal matrix owner of the device (which is tied to your persona - no matter on which device you currently base your persona on or if you use a living persona - it is still your persona and you are still the legal matrix owner of your devices).
Please give me a reference that say you must use a device based persona to control a device.
Since living persona have a sleaze attribute it can even be used to control someone's else device against the legit owners will (if the TM got enough marks on the device).
To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device.
Please give me a reference that say you must base your persona on the master device in a PAN in order for your devices to stay slaved.
Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.
It is also important to note that you are still the owner of your devices even if you base your persona on another device or use your living persona. It is still your persona. You only have one persona "fingerprint" (for lack of better word).
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@Xenon: On the point you was trying to make earlier, that a TM is not able to make a direct connection by Trodes or a Datajack because Aron said so, I call it wrong.
I guess the interpretation of this was, that a TM cant make a direct connection using a Wire with his living persona when he is using a Device like a Cyberdeck and like we all know, than he uses not his living persona.
However, if you have a Datajack you dont have the need of creating a new Persona on it, like with a Comlink or Cyberdeck. You just use your living Persona which is kind of already on your body and make a direct connection with it like every other normal Person too.
Summarizing I think you shouldnt interpretate into such a short sentence to much of someone who even didnt write the part about Matrix and just go with the logical sense. (The book says it gives you a direct connection, not that TMs dont get one. They just lose their living persona if they use a Com or so..)
I know you will have some arguments against what Im saying, but Xenon let me say this once, I actually listen pretty much to what you are posting and actually I think you are the one in this Forum who kind of knows the most about the Matrix in 5th Edition. I guess Im even not the only one with this.
But since you have a such big audience, it would be nice if you could stop with such "Ruleloyaism" about things they are for sure not ment to be like that and if they would they would ruin TMs completely.
On my End I have little problems in playing a TM. Actually he works pritty well and with a little Ware, he is on a good way. What I dont like is this overall panic and disappointment. Im also not happy with many things of the TM but actually its not so difficult to play and it makes fun and it makes no sense to take the fluff filled rulebooks too wordly.
I think, if we address our real issues to the Writers, they may have an ear for us, but if we always just trying to missinterpretate everything we are just a wining and loud crying crowd.
So I hope with my quite, that I really respect you, I hope you don't take it personal ;)
And sorry, if my sentences may sound a little bit too much like German ^^
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Freelancers have clarified, on more than one occasion, that TMs don't have a way to ignore host ratings other than entering the host to access the slaved device directly that way.
Therefor there used to be two common house rules for TMs.
1) That TMs now can use trodes or datajack and a cable to a device to get a direct connection to it with their living persona.
2) That TMs are now born with a skinlink echo at chargen for no additional cost that let them establish a direct connection between their living persona and any device they physically touch.
Personally i liked the second better since TMs are supposed to manage without mundane devices such as trodes and data cables, but both were house rules and both were widely used.
When i later realised that a TM can use cleaner or static veil to hack a host many many hours before an actual run (while a decker can't and that deckers can't bypass host ratings when trying to gain access to paydata inside a host anyway) then the need to ignore host ratings was ssuddenly not as important anymore.
Now we jump 2 years forward. In DT TMs now have access to an official pskinlink echo that they can use to establish a direct connection between their living persona and a device they physically touch (something freelancers hinted on 2 years earlier). Now TMs finally have a rule legal way to bypass host ratings. A way that don't require house rules.
Some tables will probably continue to use one or both of the above house rules. Nothing wrong with that. But calling them RAW and right after skinlink is presented as the official way of doing it might be a bit.... strong.
(Seriously, if the intention all along was that a TM could ignore host ratings with 70¥ trodes; then why on earth would they add it as an expansive skinlink echo in DT??)
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Well... have you took a look at the other echos?
80-240 for a program. But you have to use an expensive program echo from core.
Two echos that are exactly the same thing one is th just more "errattaed"
An echo that is using terms apparently from 4th edition.
An echo that increases a matrix attribute by one point.
An echo that suppose to let you use your living persona abilities.. Except for compliging, registering, complex forms, living persona stats,,,
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I dont mind you handle it this way in your group, but arguing its RAW that Trodes or DataJacks do nothing to TMs or RAI just because someone, who Im not sure about if he is familiar with every part of the book (What Im sure no one is) is answering on a question in a way you could interprete your thoughts in.
The roules state you can get an direct connection via Trodes and DataJack and they dont say it doesnt work for TMs. It however specifies, TMs lose their living Persona, if they use a Com or so.
So are you sure, your argument is so 100% correct, if I would need to read every interview and this whole board to maybe interpretate a lot into one person words to come to the same result as you?
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I can show you several references that TMs don't use devices to hack stuff.
SR5 p. 216 Technomancer
A person who is able to use and manipulate the Matrix without hardware
SR5 p. 223 Technomancers
Techomancers are able to interface both in AR and VR without the aid of a sim module, image link, or any other electronic devices
SR5 p. 249 Technomancers
Technomancers are metahumans with the mysterious (if not mystical) ability to connect and manipulate the Matrix without the aid of technology
DT p. 59 Skinlink
You gain the ability to forge a direct connection with any device you physically touch. Two technomancers with this echo can mentally communicate simply by touching
DT p. 170 Technomancers
A technomancer is someone who is able to hack the Matrix without the aid of a device
Etc.....
The general rule seem to be that TMs don't use devices to hack. If there exist an exception to this general rule then it need to be explicitly stated (a specific rule that override the general rule; this is how shadowrun rules work).
I can't find a specific rule that state TMs can use hardware together with their living persona to make the Skinlink echo obsolete.
I know some of you are assuming that they can, what I don't understand is what you base that assumption on. There is just nothing in the book (or any official post) that justifies that assumption.
Even less so now after the official introduction of the Skinlink echo....
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Also the persona on the master device, technomancers cannot use decks or commlinks at all if they want the beifits of a living persona, because they have to form a persona on it, says so in the mundane electronics of technomancers. Show me anything that suggests otherwise
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A datajack gives you a direct neural interface
(p. 222), which can be handy in a lot of situations.
It also comes with a retractable spool of micro-cable
(about a meter long) that lets you directly interface
with any electronic device via a universal access cable.
Datajacks are equipped with their own cache of storage
memory for downloading or saving files. Two datajack
users can string a fiberoptic cable between themselves
to conduct a private mental communication immune to
radio interception or eavesdropping.
So by your argumentation earlier TMs would even not benefit from Datajacks to directly talk to each other? No its a dump argument, but thats actually my point.
Just because it stands that TMs can do all this Matrixstuff without Cyber, it doesnt stop them from using it. And in the phrase above I dont find anything, that TMs cant use it to make a direct connection. Seams this is the common sense which has to be stated different if its a fact.
I gues you just have a little nopp in your head about this which we all have from time to time.
But going the interpretation route too:
P.232: It’s just you and the device.
and: by jacking in directly.
So its you and the device by direct connection, so its also you and your living Persona I guess.
And by jacking in I guess its meant you can use a Datajack?
Ok well... personally I dont like this interpretation style way were I pick a few fluff words and build my reality around it, thats the only reason I have put them here to show the opposition can also just grab some phrases somewhere.
The important thing is, that datajack specialy tells that you can directly connect to a device and why should a TM not be allowed doing this, since he paied for it with Money and Essence? Well and that Trodes do the same if you attache a Wire to it is the same as if a Decker picks it up and doesnt pay Essence for it.
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Also the persona on the master device, technomancers cannot use decks or commlinks at all if they want the beifits of a living persona, because they have to form a persona on it, says so in the mundane electronics of technomancers. Show me anything that suggests otherwise
Why base your persona on your mundane device to begin with...?
1) Use living persona
2) Slave device to one of your commlinks while still using living persona
3) Continue to use living persona - while device is protected by firewall of commlink.
4) Reboot living persona and go to bed - while device is still slaved to commlink.
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Because a datajack will reduce noise for the TM.
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Also the persona on the master device, technomancers cannot use decks or commlinks at all if they want the beifits of a living persona, because they have to form a persona on it, says so in the mundane electronics of technomancers. Show me anything that suggests otherwise
Why base your persona on your mundane device to begin with...?
1) Use living persona
2) Slave device to one of your commlinks while still using living persona
3) Continue to use living persona - while device is protected by firewall of commlink.
4) Reboot living persona and go to bed - while device is still slaved to commlink.
Because according to it, you cannot use the mundane electronic unless you have a persona. Nothing suggests you cannot use the commlink or deck without forming a persona.
Also, skinlink was an item back in 4th, 50 nuyen same price of trodes then too. Why is it that is all a expensive echo is worth? Cause the echo existed back then as well.
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So by your argumentation earlier TMs would even not benefit from Datajacks to directly talk to each other?
Of course they do. You don't use your persona (living or otherwise) to do that. Please read this post. Again. Thank you.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21041.msg378128#msg378128
A decker with a cyberdeck use a cable from his cyberdeck to the device he want to directly hack.
A technomancer with a living persona and skinlink echo physically touch the device she want to directly hack.
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Because according to it, you cannot use the mundane electronic unless you have a persona. Nothing suggests you cannot use the commlink or deck without forming a persona.
You cannot use your commlink to for example search the matrix without forming a persona on it. You need a persona to do matrix actions. Agreed.
But why do you assume that you need to form a persona on the master device when you slave a device to it? It is not listed as a matrix action... Its not even clear if it is an action you do on the slave or the master... or both.
Is it even clear that the master device must be a commlink?? Commlinks normalt have higher device rating at a low cost so they are of course natural targets to be a master device... but all devices have firewall and data processing. Is there a rule to prevent us from.... slaving our devices to a deltaware cybernetic implant? The master in a PAN must be a device and the master in a WAN must be a host.
What I am getting at is: Why do you assume that you need to form a persona on the master device in your PAN?
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Well because it does not say you dont have to form the persona on the device to make a pan. And the mundane electronics part of technomancers says in order to use them you have to form the persona. And since you're either using your resonance powers or your not and filtering any bit of your matrix squid powers through any tech..
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Q: Can a data tap be attached to a wire and then accessed wirelessly for the purposes of hacking the device(s) on either end of the wire?
Yes. That's what it's for. You calculate the range to the data tap rather than the devices for purposes of noise.
Based on the above, couldn't a Technomancer simply wirelessly access a data tap to bypass host ratings? I believe the Data Tap specifically creates a direct connection between it and the devices at either end of a cable.
I don't believe anything prevents a device from being both slaved to a host and having a wired connection at the same time, after all.
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Well because it does not say you dont have to form the persona on the device to make a pan. And the mundane electronics part of technomancers says in order to use them you have to form the persona. And since you're either using your resonance powers or your not and filtering any bit of your matrix squid powers through any tech..
You are talking about this:
SR5 p. 251 Using Mundane Electronics
You can use a commlink or cyberdeck if you like. A lot of technomancers do in order to hide their abilities. If you use a persona on a commlink or deck, you can’t use your Resonance abilities. That only works when you’re using your living persona, and since you can only use one persona at a time—well, you get the idea.
As I read the above is that you are free to base your persona on a commlink or cyberdeck if you like (using matrix attributes of that device). In that case you must also use image link, ear buds and AR glove to navigate the matrix or even using trodes or an implanted datajack to control wireless devices. You can also use a wire between your cyberdeck and a device to get a direct connection.... but if you do then you cannot use your living persona or your resonance abilities.
However, I am not as convinced as you seem to be that this have anything to do with slaving a smartgun system to your deltaware cyberware master device (or whatever device you choose as your master device in your personal area network). I don't see why you need to form a device based persona on the master device in your PAN (there is no rule for this as far as i can tell?).
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Q: Can a data tap be attached to a wire and then accessed wirelessly for the purposes of hacking the device(s) on either end of the wire?
Yes. That's what it's for. You calculate the range to the data tap rather than the devices for purposes of noise.
Based on the above, couldn't a Technomancer simply wirelessly access a data tap to bypass host ratings? I believe the Data Tap specifically creates a direct connection between it and the devices at either end of a cable.
I don't believe anything prevents a device from being both slaved to a host and having a wired connection at the same time, after all.
No, you need to use a wire from the data tap directly to the cyberdeck if you want to bypass host ratings as a decker or a technomancer with a device based persona (or you need to have the skin link echo and physically touch the data tap if you want to bypass host ratings as a technomancer using your living persona).
But you can use the wireless enabled data tap to access a wireless off device (that is either wired, wireless off or a throwback). Note that a device that is not wireless enabled will also not be slaved to a host so in this case there will be no host ratings to take into consideration anyway....
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you need to use a wire from the data tap directly to the cyberdeck
Not according to Aaron, as per the above...
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you need to use a wire from the data tap directly to the cyberdeck
Not according to Aaron, as per the above...
Aaron is talking about wireless access a wired device by using a wireless enabled data tap.
(which was great news for TMs or else they would have no way to access a wired device - well, until now when they have skinlink)
Aaron is not talking about getting a direct connection by wireless accessing a datatap....
(to get a direct connection you need to connect a wire from your cyberdeck to the datatap or physically touch it if you have a living persona with a skinlink echo).
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And in light of technomancers not to be able to do even the some most basic matrix functions with electronic devices because of no rule in the book and be able to use thier living persona, im just going to follow along with that and asume because there is no rule you can use a deck or commlink to form a pan without forming a persona.
Page 218 has you for a persona whenever you use a commlink
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And in light of technomancers not to be able to do even the some most basic matrix functions with electronic devices ...
TMs can use all matrix functions on electronic devices; without using any devices of their own at all.
With the release of DT they can even establish a direct connection to a device by simply touching it.
What basic matrix functions can a decker do that a TM cannot....?
edit: or are you talking about a PAN?
As I said earlier;
- Decker can create a pan on his high firewall commlink while he base his persona on his cyberdeck when he want to break the law.
- TM can create a pan on her high firewall commlink while she use her device-less living persona when she want to break the law.
Page 218 has you for a persona whenever you use a commlink
What part of p. 218 talk about that...?
Closest thing i see is this:
SR5 p. 218 Personas
A persona is usually based on a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigged vehicle or drone, although technomancers are a sort of device-less persona.
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So by your argumentation earlier TMs would even not benefit from Datajacks to directly talk to each other?
Of course they do. You don't use your persona (living or otherwise) to do that. Please read this post. Again. Thank you.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21041.msg378128#msg378128
May I expressed my self not clear enough Im sorry for that. Just for clarification, I remember you mentioned somewere what point does Skinlink have, if it gives you the same direct connection like a Datajack. Well my text above was actually ment sarcastic, that maybe the datajack also shouldnt provide the TM with the possibility to talk by wire, since Skinlink can do that with a finger.
Aniway, Im sorry Xenon, but you are completely ignoring the fact that it stands in the roules that a Datajack provides you with a direct connection to a device, if you connect it with it. And a direct connection is also explained in the book. Its not necesarry to have a Cyberdeck or a RCC or whatever in betwean.
But since youare ignoring consequently during the last 2 pages this very obviouse fact and still throwing around words like there is no other logical explanation for this issue than your cloue, Im out of the discussion, because it seams to make no sence taking the cirkle once more.
Edit: Ehm just want to mention again, that noone should interpretate any heat into my words... I also hope that Xenon doesnt take them personal.
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Sentence in front of that
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And a direct connection is also explained in the book. Its not necesarry to have a Cyberdeck ....
To ignore host ratings of a wireless device that is slaved to a host you have a two options (besides entering the host):
1) Normally you need a persona based on device capable of hacking and then physically connect the cyberdeck to the device.
If the cyberdeck is internal then you connect the wire to your internal cyberdeck via your datajack to the device (same as if you want to connect a smartgun to your internal smartlink via wire you connect your internal smartlink to your gun with a wire via your datajack) and if the cyberdeck is external you connect a wire from your external cyberdeck to the device.
2) A TM have the option to instead use a living persona, a skinlink echo and then physically touch the device.
If you are a TM that use a living persona you don't connect with mundane electronics, you get a skinlink echo and physically touch the device you want to establish a direct connection to.
If you could establish a direct connection from your living persona to a device via trodes/datajack and a cable then there would be little to no point in adding a skinlink echo. If the intent was that technomancers could connect their living persona to a device via trodes/datajack and a cable then it would have been mentioned (or at least hinted) somewhere in one of the many technomancer chapters (of either core or DT). It doesn't. Every reference about TMs state that they hack things without the use of devices (such as trodes, image links, wires, datajacks, cyberdecks, commlinks, earbuds, AR gloves, sim modules, etc). Freelancers have clarified that TMs can't establish a direct connection (until DT was relelased). Freelancers have clarified that TMs can't use trodes together with their Living Persona. Just because a datajack can be used to establish a direct connection for the purpose of hacking (for example if you have an internal cyberdeck) does not also automatically mean you can use a datajack to link a living persona with it. How much more do you need...?
It might have made for an excellent house rule back when TMs didn't have a skinlink echo, but that's about it....
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That is the sentence I'm referring to on page 218
The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona
And honestly, I disagree that if technomancers were suppose to be able to use their living persona with Trodes/datajack that it would stated or even hinted in the chapters talking about it. Rather, the opposite would be true. Such as how it states, over and over and over again how Technomancers are not a device and there for are not able to form pans.
Cause honestly, its the same thing with what I'm going on about here, how they can't use a commlink to form a PAN while using their living persona. Its blatantly stated they cannot use a commlink and the living persona at the same time. So going by what you're on about, if the intent was to allow them to use a commlink without forming a persona, and using it to form a pan, it would have been mentioned or even hinted in the technomancer section.
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A "user" is someone actively using the device, not an owner.
If a Technomancer doesn't need his devices to go into the matrix, which he does not, he can keep them running just fine.
He's just not part of that PAN.
In the same way, a regular user can have multiple comlinks with him, one for data searches, one to protect his weapons, one for online games...
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Yes. And a person actively using a commlink to form a Pan would be using the commlink. Thus his persona would form on the commlink, and would prevent him from being able to use any other personas. He could have a billion other commlinks in his home, but because he is using this one, he cannot use any of the others until he stops using it to form a pan.
Just applying the Idea of if the intent was to allow technomancers to use electronic devices with their living persona, that it would be explicitly stated, or hinted more strongly that a technomancer's living persona is not an exception of the rules of the matrix allowing anyone else use their persona though things like trodes/datajacks/satlinks.
Of course I actually disagree with that idea. You might as well be saying things like if the intent was to allow mages shoot guns, it would be included in their chapter, cause it would amount to about the samething.
The exception to the the rule would be the thing that is hinted, or explicitly stated. Such as how it explicitly states that Technomancers are not devices. And thus cannot form a pan with thier living persona. Or how it explicitly states that technomancers cannot use resonance abilities while forming a persona on a commlink or deck. Doesn't at all mention, or even hint, in the tiniest bit that they cannot use electronics that do not form a persona. while using their living persona. In fact it begins to get weird and wonky when you start having "This one works, this one doesn't." for really no reason.
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1) Normally you need a persona based on a cyberdeck and then physically connect the cyberdeck to the device.
Replace "cyberdeck" with "device capable of hacking", and I'd agree. There are commlinks with Sleaze and Attack attributes now, after all.
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1) Normally you need a persona based on a cyberdeck and then physically connect the cyberdeck to the device.
Replace "cyberdeck" with "device capable of hacking", and I'd agree. There are commlinks with Sleaze and Attack attributes now, after all.
Good point.
Updating my post.
That is the sentence I'm referring to on page 218
The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona
I don't contest the fact that if you use a commlink to for example search the matrix i will base my persona on it.
This is true for TMs as well.
But would i need to form a persona on the device i select to be my master device in my PAN?
This might or might not be true. There is just nothing about it in the book as far as i can see.
Such as how it states, over and over and over again how Technomancers are not a device and there for are not able to form pans.
....using their living persona.
Just like anyone else they can still form a PAN using a device.
SR5 p. 250-251 Living Persona
Since your living persona is just a persona, not a device.....You are not a device, so you cannot be a slave or master, nor can you be part of a PAN or WAN.
SR5 p. 233 PANs and WANs
Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN.
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Honestly depends if you're capable of forming a persona on it or not.
Data trails suggests that there are devices you do not form persona on and have a mod to allow you to form a persona on said devices.
Persona Firmware: With two packs of parts, you can add the ability to run a persona to a device. If the device already has this capability, you can’t add it again.
So taking this into consideration, it could be possible to run a device that cannot form a persona to perform this action. No matter how many times you use that particular device it will never form a persona. So here it could be possible, yes for a technomancer to form a pan I suppose using such a device, such as rating six goggles.
Then again having no way to actually interface with the goggles puts a Technomancer in a bit of a jam, since well, we can't interface with electronics in any fashion except wirelessly, using the matrix action control device or what limited buttons they might have.
And yes, it is curious to wonder how exactly the slave/master thing works. Perhaps my technos will wrap all their devices up in leather and lace, except the master, which they will give a little whip to. Perhaps that is how one forms a pan?
Now as you've pointed out, it doesn't say in the book at all, that the technomancer is this incapable, this inept, that he can't even form a simple Pan (Let alone broadcast a SIN) because practically just touching the commlink causes him to lose his only thing that makes him any good at all. Likewise it doesn't say that they are an exception to the rules of a datajack, trode or even satlinks. That they couldn't use these to create a direct connection.
But it doesn't say that you can form a pan, or that you can use those things. You say that its the freelancers intent, making it less Rules as Written and more Rules as Intended. But I really wonder if this is a Technomancer as intended. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqVCS4gaJ5M)
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It might be intended that a a TM use a commlink based persona and a commlink as their master device and a commlink to broadcast their fake SIN most of the time, and only use their living persona whey they actually need to hack something.
It might be intended that your commlink can longer be master device in your PAN if you no longer base your persona on it.
It might also be intended that a a decker use a commlink based persona and a commlink as their master device and a commlink to broadcast their fake SIN most of the time, and only use their living persona whey they actually need to hack something.
It might also be intended that you never can base a persona on the master device in the PAN (since it turn the device into a PAN), but that have all kinds of strange complications (like a rigger need to slave his drones to his RCC to directly jump into them but can't do it if he base his persona on the rcc.... or if a regular user base a persona on their commlink it will stop acting as the master device in their PAN and leave all their devices unslaved).
It might also be intended that you can slave your devices to your high rating commlink without basing your persona on it.
And that you can base your persona on for example a throwaway commlink to do a Send Message matrix action on it (without un-slaving all your devices in the process....)
Master - Slave is simply not very well described in the book and didn't really get more attention in DT either....
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And then that is when we get into the wonderful world of no longer using what is written, and only what is assumed to be intended, often times things that are being assumed to be intended without thinking of the consequences or how everything interacts.
You asked before why would they make a skin link echo if trodes or datajack could do it, since they could do it for a few nuyen, while the skin link would take a lot of karma.
Well... Because it was an echo in 4e. Pretty much plain and simple. That, and over all, a whole lot of the cost vs reward doesn't play in very much with technomancers. 70 nuyen for a set of trodes, 240 nuyen for a program. Or 13+ karma each.
We've got an echo that uses two abilities from 4e in the same book. Heck, we don't actually even know if its the same freelancer from Core who wrote the rules in Data Trails. Likely not, as they didn't seem to try to clarify Mind over Machine, rather instead, they made their own echo with its own name that they had felt was the right way of running MoM, though in no point did it invalidate the previous one.
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TMs were given the Skinlink echo so they could have a way to directly connect to devices just like deckers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They can't just connect their living persona through trodes into a device.
TMs were given the Resonance Program echo so they could have a way to run a cyberprogram just like deckers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They cannot use their living persona to write a program on the fly to emulate a cyberprogram.
TMs were given the Mind over Machine echo (or what ever its been renamed to) so they could have a way to jump into devices equipped with rigger interface just like riggers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They cannot just dive straight into a device with their living persona without it.
Now, personally I would not mind if TMs had the Skinlink echo functionality for free directly at chargen, that TMs automatically got one Resonance Program echo functionality for free each time they submerged, that a device would still have its device icon in the matrix even if someone form a persona on it and that a TM could slave Resonance rating x 3 devices she is the owner of directly to her living persona. Guess that is what house rules are for ;)
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Well, that is all certainly rather sound, and when in doubt, I believe what Aaron said, so I believe there's no LP through a wire (why would it work on a jack if it doesn't on trodes?), but there is, indeed, an argument to be made about the nonexistence of such rules.
We're all just arguing for what we think makes more sense here.
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Ok I write again XD
Well only a short one… ;)
About your question why they put Skinlink in:
My assumption is not that they only made it to give TMs a way to directly connect with devices like Xenon thinks. In my mind its just to be able to still play the Fluff, since not everyone wants to play the cool Technomancer who then has to fall back an put an odd net of mash on his head or implant an Datajack and lose his Essence, when he actually thought of his character in being able to do this all without a device or wire. That it still cost Min. 13Points of Karma is kind of redicules to me and to many others, but that's another topic.
However the Skinlink still provides a TM with an advantage beyond the Fluff and that's the concealability.
Lets say I want to hack a guys Comlink, but its to good. So I ask him to show me his cool looking glasses which I found out are only rating 1. He gives it to me and I inspect it quite amazed and curious. Well with Trodes or a Datajack it would be almost impossible to now plug my wire into the Dataconnector, but since I do have Skinlink I hack his PAN with ease and the guy even didn't recognize.
I know there are phrases and sentences which are maybe misleading if you look at them to close, but may we fall back once more and ask us what was the overall intention about the book? What I found (and that fits especially for the Matrix in 5tth) is that the Writers planned to make the book simple and easy. It might has not worked out so well, but Im quite sure, that most of the things are meant like that, like you read them the first time. And if it is different intended they did highlight it.
With this assumption I may fall back on the other two topics which got discussed here:
TM and PAN: I was reading it firstly like that, that TM cant slave devices to them self. Devices are should be slaved to devices. So Im quite certain, the writers didn't plan to make the book very difficult and ruin the fun for a TM or make it ridiculously difficult for everyone to protect his stuff. Therefor every character can buy one or more Comlinks and just slave his devices to them. (If you can slave them to your Glasses, I didn't made my Mind up and also don't want to. :) )
And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona. What they cant do is getting an RCC and use it with their living Persona.
The Pain editor Echo works the same, you can buy it with Essence or with Karma….
However, I think everyone has now repeated his arguments over and over again and I don't believe anymore one of both “sides” will be convinced by the other. But for people who read this post and are interested in how they should play on their table have now enough facts or arguments to decide which side is more convincing to them and continue with their chosen way.
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And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona.
You believe a control rig device allow a TM to jump in....? While still using her deviceless living persona.....?
I begin to understand why you think they can also get a direct connection with their living persona by using trodes....
Let us simply agree to disagree ;)
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And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona.
You believe a control rig device allow a TM to jump in....? While still using her deviceless living persona.....?
I begin to understand why you think they can also get a direct connection with their living persona by using trodes....
Let us simply agree to disagree ;)
Technomancers are undisputed the weakest characters in the game by Chargen. Needlessly making it harder on them isn't going to help... they need to rewrite the rules just to make them functional. To make a TMs brain count as a deck... then you can connect your devices to your mind & "load" your persona unto it. Giving them Skinlink as a starting ability will only help make them a more viable character...but still if someone wanted a Datajack for the data storage, if their mind counted as a deck then they get direct contact.
You are technically correct about every point you make... while also accurately diagnosing the problems those rules cause. Once it's established that Rules are causing problems, time to chuck those Rules. And not like the Master - Slave Device relationship that come about from people trying to string 6 different commlinks together with mods to make Cyberdecks. That's the Rules not working because people are trying to break the system.... technos are just jacked.
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That something is be weak might be great argument for a house rule, see my suggestions above, but using it as a base of argument on the authors real intent when the rule was written? Nah...
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Well, that is all certainly rather sound, and when in doubt, I believe what Aaron said, so I believe there's no LP through a wire (why would it work on a jack if it doesn't on trodes?), but there is, indeed, an argument to be made about the nonexistence of such rules.
We're all just arguing for what we think makes more sense here.
This. Lots and lots of this.
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Watch them go and add the Biological PAN rule like in Unwired in the ePub supplement for Data Trails. That will nullify some of the argument here, I suppose.
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That something is be weak might be great argument for a house rule, see my suggestions above, but using it as a base of argument on the authors real intent when the rule was written? Nah...
I'm not saying that it was what the authors intended... the cut & paste mystical mumbo jumbo shows what they intended. The issue is that they FAILED to properly integrate TMs with 5th edition Matrix. Unless you are contending that the authors intended to make TMs the redheaded stepchildren of the new wireless world where they can't actually function the way they are described in the Fluff. I'd totally buy that theory on the basis that the new Matrix was designed to be actively hostile and extremely awkward for them to interact with except the Fluff doesn't support it. The Fluff portrays them in a certain way.... the Crunch is a failure in letting them actually do it. The Master-Slave devices rules are wonky but when TMs are added in then they just get chucked out. How are TMs supposed to be the wireless wizards when they can't even protect their own gear let alone anyone elses???
I'm a huge advocate for RAW & generally a pretty anti house rule guy.... but TMs are so bad they have to be house ruled to be functional. That's not acceptable... the TM Splatbook really needs to redefine the entire rule set concerning them.
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the Crunch is a failure in letting them actually do it.
Well, as I read it they can base a PAN around a commlink just fine.
If you rule that a TM cannot slave their devices to their commlink without also forming their persona on it then i would agree that something would be missing, but since rules for slaving a device to a master device seem to be deliberately vague (even in DT) I don't see why you anyone would willing want to add that restriction to begin with.
(Hell - if you take a very strict reading of the book then you cannot even form a persona on the master device in your PAN at all since that would turn the device into a Persona...).
And with the introduction of DT they can also establish a direct connection directly from their living persona to a device by getting the Skinlink echo and physically touch the device.