Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Fisher on <06-06-15/0520:23>
-
Ok, I've seen a lot of discussion about Lockdown, and the plot, which seems to imply the old big God (am) AI made a comeback over in Boston. Not having played the game, and only just now returning to the forums, I'm not sure what to make of that.
See, the thing is... I recently read Data Trails. And that book gave me a completely unrelated idea about Deus being back.
Ok, some context. Data Trails tries hard to flesh out the idea of the 5E Grid. A part of that is the idea that Hosts, the big server-things that most Corporations use for data storage/operations, are all tied together by something called "The Foundation." Apparently this Foundation was at the heart of the new Matrix design, even though none of the Corps or GOD really understand it, and is the unifying force that connects everything. The book describes it as a strange kinda UV node, that the Hosts are somehow 'grown' out of.
Now, I got into Shadowrun in 4E, so correct me if I'm wrong here. But wasn't Deus' big plan to gain control of the entire Matrix by creating a super UV node, connecting to a bunch of different servers to boost its power? (The ECSE, right?) And wasn't he using Yggdrassil like imagery in that fight at the end? That seems... suspiciously similar to what the Foundation ended up being. Whose idea was it to use the Foundation and build a Matrix around it?
GODs, I guess. God's idea.
... Say, what does the name 'Deus' mean, again? ;)
-
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mind_blown.gif (http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mind_blown.gif)
-
It's not quite Plan 9 level crazy, but it's not exactly rock solid either. Good theorizing, for sure.
-
*bows* High praise, Mr. Brackhaus. ;)
Yeah, it's a long way from concrete. But given what we've seen of the Foundation, I think it's the most plausible explanation. I can't think of many other people with the motive or the means to establish a UV node that could bind the Matrix together like that. And we know that's roughly what Deus was gunning for. He had different reasons, but was creating the same end result: a big UV node that ran between everything. It wasn't brought back online as part of the WMI, but something GOD did in rebuilding the Matrix brought it back online somehow?
So, taking this theory a little further, some fun thoughts. ;)
1: To what degree are GOD complicit in the creation of the Foundation? Are they compromised? Deus' involvement explains their massively increased ability to find Hackers in the Matrix: an AI who built its underlying architecture could probably 'hear the notes' fairly easily, or at least convert it into something GOD could more easily track.
2: Everything's a host now. Jackpoint's a Host, every major corp facility and R&D lab, every hospital power plant and air traffic control... everything that requires significant Matrix data management is a host. Connected to the Foundation. Everything's on one grid, ultimately. Not only can someone in control of the Foundation play with the Hosts on a whim, each Host also has something called a 'Null Node'. None of the Jackpointers as of Data Trails could work out what it does, but the imagery involved is not positive. And every host has one.
3: Back in Stormfront, we had reports of Dodger joining GOD. And being tempted by the quest for Megara. I need to consult System Failure, but wasn't there a thing where some of Megara's code was merged into Deus? I can't recall how that played out, but the AIs having some presence in GOD might offer an alternate explanation for Dodger being up there.
-
But wasn't Deus' big plan to gain control of the entire Matrix by creating a super UV node, connecting to a bunch of different servers to boost its power? (The ECSE, right?)
Deus plan was not to control the entire matrix. His plan was to use the accumulated computing power of the Novatech IPO to recursively upgrade himself (the upgraded Deus is better at upgrading himself, resulting in an upgraded upgraded Deus who is even better at upgrading himself...) finally resulting in a superintelligence whose abilities are beyond anything humans can understand -- aka. the technological singularity.
Rob Boyle had been a card-carrying transhumanist before writing Eclipse Phase, and System Failure was basically a point-by-point implementation of the "hard takeoff" scenario ;)
TL;DR: If Deus was behind the new matrix, you would have realized by now. And be dead.
-
... y'know, I said this back when they rolled 4e around. Didn't I say this? I said this. No, it's not Deus - or rather, it's not JUST Deus. The Foundation's code is that of all three of the big AIs, enabling technomancers (when it used to require a much more intense link, and much more flexible minds, and a 'healing' AI, namely Mirage, to form otaku) as well as the zillion AI that 4e and 5e players are familiar with.
Didn't I say this?
-
But wasn't Deus' big plan to gain control of the entire Matrix by creating a super UV node, connecting to a bunch of different servers to boost its power? (The ECSE, right?)
Deus plan was not to control the entire matrix. His plan was to use the accumulated computing power of the Novatech IPO to recursively upgrade himself (the upgraded Deus is better at upgrading himself, resulting in an upgraded upgraded Deus who is even better at upgrading himself...) finally resulting in a superintelligence whose abilities are beyond anything humans can understand -- aka. the technological singularity.
Rob Boyle had been a card-carrying transhumanist before writing Eclipse Phase, and System Failure was basically a point-by-point implementation of the "hard takeoff" scenario ;)
TL;DR: If Deus was behind the new matrix, you would have realized by now. And be dead.
;) Heyya! Just to say, I explained that poorly. I know Deus' endgoal wasn't matrix dominance, but upgrading. However, he still went after Matrix dominance for that goal, didn't he? I remember there being something about opening links from the Novatech IPO into other high power nodes, gaining control over as much of the Matrix as possible in order to boost his upgrading power. TL:DR, whilst it wasn't what he was after, wasn't Deus in control of a significant portion of the Old Matrix during the last moments pre-Crash?
... y'know, I said this back when they rolled 4e around. Didn't I say this? I said this. No, it's not Deus - or rather, it's not JUST Deus. The Foundation's code is that of all three of the big AIs, enabling technomancers (when it used to require a much more intense link, and much more flexible minds, and a 'healing' AI, namely Mirage, to form otaku) as well as the zillion AI that 4e and 5e players are familiar with.
Didn't I say this?
Hrm... interesting thought, but question. If the merged AIs/Foundation were what allowed Technomancers to Emerge, where was the Foundation during the events of 4E? We had Technos almost as soon as the WMI started, but IIRC we've had nothing like the Foundation until the De Lar Mar 'trix rolled around.
-
Regarding Deus: No, he didn't have control over a large portion of the Matrix moments before Crash 2.0. He was still inside the ECSE servers along with Megaera and Mirage, even if there were major processing connection increases from opening tunnels to other matrix sites, when Puck (that frickin' idiot) dropped a Jormungandr code egg at their feet and shredded them to microbytes.
Next, you/we/they/SR has not recognized what's been going on until the De La Mar Matrix (hereafter DLM2) rolled out. If you take a close look at it, it isn't all that much of a redesign; it's more along the nature of a tightening of certain security protocols, a very minor adjustment of the interface protocols, and a revamp of how the networks interact with each other. The baseline coding itself hasn't substantially changed from 2.0 to 2.1; there wasn't a third UMS conference like there was for the original Matrix, in Tokyo in 2039, or for Matrix 2.0 in the Silicon Glen conference in 2065. Step back from 'how rolling the dice in the game' works for a bit, and take a look at the functional changes, and you'll see that that's right.
Truth is, I think they became aware of 'the Foundation' via Dodger's search for Morgan/Megaera. Remember first that he'd worked for pretty much all the major computer organizations - the Big 10, bunches of the smallers, IIRC - analyzing their code, etc. Second, he was a consultant on the DLM2, which means they were in position to reap the benefit of his research. It's like air, or gravity - you don't think of the bedrock rules of your world until you're looking for a way to lock down the definitions of your world, the way De La Mar's team were. Once you have reason to ask questions, you know enough to ask the RIGHT question - in this case, 'how is all this weird shit happening when it hadn't been before???'
-
Just find it amusing that everyone pretty much hates Puck for what he did, especially his roles in Crash 2.0... and yet it seems like had he not dropped that Jormungandr worm on top of the AIs we'd be dealing with a post-Singularity 5th Edition.
Personally my view that I've stated before is what's crawled out of Boston seems to be displaying traits very similar to what I read about Deus... but personally I don't think it is Dues. We had three super-AIs in the middle of vying for a hard takeoff into Singularity when a Dissonance worm got thrown into the mix just before the plug got pulled. I think whatever has come out of Boston is something new, but it appears that Deus makes up at least part of its composition.
Will it display traits of the other AIs? Could we perhaps see others displaying traits of the other AIs?
Or is it just acting like Deus as a bluff?
-
Actually, only Deus was looking for an upgrade. The other two were trying to prevent it, not vie for it.
As for Boston, well - I think those fragments think they were Deus; that would fit Pax's penchant for irony and mockery. But actually be Deus - no. She hates him too much for that.
-
Even if what got into Eliohann are just fragments of Deus, that's cause for concern. It rebuilt itself once, I wouldn't hedge my bets it couldn't succeed again.
-
Not fragments of Deus - fragments which are coded to THINK they are Deus. Fragments which, given how much Pax despises AIs in general and has a nuclear mad-on for Deus in particular, would be a caricature of him - specifically, his personality as seen through her eyes. It's a matter of design coherency, which the Network had in spades, excluding that little 'Megaera linked in too' part.
-
I'll just say I don't buy it. Even for someone like Pax, that seems like a Herculean task. If those fragments were powerful enough to take on Cerberus/Eliohann, they've got to be more than your average proto/meta/xenosapient AI construct.
Given the text of Lockdown, I choose to believe Deus is back. Only time will tell for sure.
-
They aren't - because, well, they aren't. Realize that a CFD case isn't a matter of the power of the personality behind the nanobots; it's a matter of the strength of the programmed nanobots themselves, as well as their quantity/mass. A 'rating 6' mass is going to overwhelm a 'rating 2' mass, even if the mind/persona behind the R2 is a genius tower of iron will and the R6 is a blithering wet paper towel idiot.
Add this into the fact that Pax was in on the programming of the Cerebus core, her monkeywrenching 'had legs', as they say. It might not have been equal masses of nanobots applied, but it was certainly a massive dose nonetheless ...
-
I kind of like the idea that the Foundation is actually the "soup" of what the Worm ate through. So the soup would consist of all the AIs and personas it chewed it. It all became this massive entity which has lost all true intelligence and direction, which when proded can be coerced into forming hosts, but if pushed too hard or the wrong way will chew you up. A lobotomised beast more or less, reduced to instincts.
-
Like I said, Wyrm, I don't buy it. Keep on preaching though.
-
lets not also forget that the Chicago nanites can access Resonance, sure there might have been plans to slip some thing in, but just about ANYTHING could have hopped on board that little CFD train.
-
What are 'Chicago nanites' from? Season 5 Missions?
-
Lockdown with it's more aggressive modified nanite variant was strange enough... but nanites with access to resonance seem even more scary :o
-
No idea. Boston CFD nanites certainly don't have access to the Resonance, though they do create an effect similar to Technomancers due to the concentration of nanites in the brain. It's possible ScytheKnight just confused Boston and Chicago, and the Technomancer-like Matrix effect of the nanites with a Resonance connection.
-
I believe it was implied that a) picofragments of enchanted obsidian somehow allowed technomancer sprites to affect the nanites, and b) that the nanites were building cyberware inside some of the headcases's brains. The latter, at least, seems to me to suggest that they were constructing 'implanted commlinks', in order to communicate with other headcases of their kind.
-
Jumping in kinda late, but I'm pretty sure there isn't just one Foundation - each Host has its own and they are not connected. In other words, the Foundation is not the underpinning of the Matrix, but of an individual Host in the Matrix. I'm not sure what sort of impact this has on the OPs musings.
Or maybe I missed a section in DT where it says that the Foundation is one substructure that all Hosts share.
-
It's at the very beginning of the discussion on p.83. There is one Foundation, but each Host 'grows out of' a certain section of it, generates its own portion, its own nodes, that interface between the Foundation and that specific Host, and so they speak of a particular Host's Foundation as though it were a seperate thing, even though it isn't. But going into a Host's Foundation is like the movie 'Inception' - there's that funky dream logic at work, just in that Host's Foundation. It would, I think, be even more different/abstract/intense were you to dive into the deep Foundation itself.
-
No idea. Boston CFD nanites certainly don't have access to the Resonance, though they do create an effect similar to Technomancers due to the concentration of nanites in the brain. It's possible ScytheKnight just confused Boston and Chicago, and the Technomancer-like Matrix effect of the nanites with a Resonance connection.
Indeed... sorry, bad with names and tend to get them muddled.
I've not really read through Lockdown yet, so this is mainly coming from having played through Chronicles.
Basically from that there was a technomancer and an alchemist working together to attempt to create technomancer foci. A step in that was enhancing nanites with obsidian in an attempt to get them to connect with resonance in some way.
-
Not exactly. As I related above, they were trying to (and presumably succeeded in) place picofragments of enchanted obsidian into the nanites, so that a sprite could affect them. Of course, a sprite could affect them anyhow, as going by Stolen Souls, they are wirelessly enabled, thus essentially each is a Matrix persona. I like the fiction work in Data Trails, though - treating the individual as a Host, and doing a dive into their Foundation ...
-
Like I said, aint read the books through yet, so I can only state stuff from the game and that at least is what they where attempting to do.