Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: NovaHot1 on <03-18-15/1619:16>

Title: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: NovaHot1 on <03-18-15/1619:16>
Page 146 Shadowrun 5e says:
Quote
Data-based forgeries, like credsticks, documents, and SINs, don't really hold up well to scrutiny, what with information being so readily available. They can appear almost identical to the original, but any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery.

So if I have a player who wants to have forgery as a skill and a possible source of downtime income and he wants to make fake SINs, what would I have him roll since data based forgery is flimsy?
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: psycho835 on <03-18-15/1627:12>
Forgery with appropriate penalty?
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Kincaid on <03-18-15/1630:14>
He'd be selling the cheapest of cheap knock-offs.  They aren't hard to make, per se, they just don't serve much of a purpose in any environment in which you expect someone to run a SIN check.  They could still have their uses for creative players, but it's a niche market.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: NovaHot1 on <03-18-15/1655:06>
They can obviously be made as they are for sale from black market sources. It's not at all fair to limit him to selling cheap knock offs. Maybe with an accompanied logic+software test for passing the SIN scanner with a threshold of something like rating x 4 [30 minutes]
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Xenon on <03-18-15/1711:55>
You can forge a SIN that make it look like you are broadcasting a SIN that belong to an employed guard at the corporation.
It just don't let you pass a regular SIN check.......

Fake SINs that actually have a valid link into the GSINR are beyond what you can create with a simply data-forgery test....
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: psycho835 on <03-18-15/1912:36>
How about using forgery to modify a legit SIN that you have... ummm... "aquired"?
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: NovaHot1 on <03-18-15/1914:39>
You can forge a SIN that make it look like you are broadcasting a SIN that belong to an employed guard at the corporation.
It just don't let you pass a regular SIN check.......

Fake SINs that actually have a valid link into the GSINR are beyond what you can create with a simply data-forgery test....

Right! So basically what I'm trying to figure out is what the process would have to be to create fake SINs that would be of the same type you can buy on the block market. If he has to team up with the decker...it would foster teamwork.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: 8-bit on <03-18-15/1935:47>
It definitely involves going into the Global SIN Registry, so yes, hacking is involved. Most ID Manufacturers have a team they work with (if they aren't a syndicate or other organization already). We'll probably get rules to do this in Data Trails.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Kincaid on <03-18-15/1936:53>
Previous editions had rules for this and, even then, it was a laborious, months-long process.  It's treated as a full-time profession in most of the fluff, not something you casually do on the side.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-18-15/2233:36>
Previous editions had rules for this and, even then, it was a laborious, months-long process.  It's treated as a full-time profession in most of the fluff, not something you casually do on the side.
QFT.

From the 4th Edition book Unwired, page 95:
Quote
Creating a fake system identifiation number (SIN) requires extensive resources that most shadowrunners just donít have; the forger must generate and insert corroborating data into a number of government and corporate databases, the names and addresses of which are not available to the general public. The fixers and syndicates who deal in false SINs and IDs have established channels and contacts that work in the issuing institutions and have multiple backdoors into the necessary databanks. Even then it can be a tedious, expensive process to produce a high-rating false SIN, and also a very personal one involving increasing degrees of personal information and biometric data depending on the rating of the fake SIN. Solo hackers and technomancers can forge their own SINs, but without the apparatus of contacts and backdoors in place the process is much longer and more diffilt than buying a fake SIN. Gamemasters should think very carefully before allowing their player character hackers to dabble in forging SINs, as it can prove unbalancing. The following rules are for use at the gamemasterís discretion.

To forge a fake SIN required two steps. First, the SIN itself, which was a Forgery + Edit extended test with a threshold of (Rating * 32) and an interval of 1 week. Then, in order to insert the appropriate corroborating data, a series of Hacking + System tests with a threshold of the target System and an interval of 1 hour was required at the discretion of the GM, or he could choose to summarize the hacking part by allowing an extended Hacking + Edit test with a threshold of (rating of fake SIN * System) with an interval of 1 hour.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Lucean on <03-19-15/0233:55>
Since buying a SIN via negotiation or through a connection would only require 4 days to 2 weeks (when having equal hits on the opposed roll) but could be much less depending on the roll, there is a serious disconnect.
So either the rules should spell the exception for purchasing SINs out or the process of creation should be able to be refined.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Senko on <03-19-15/0443:13>
The difference is resources.

You want a fake sin lets say rating 4 nice solid one.

Doing it yourself
You have to spend time forging the SIN
You have to hack into numerous databases and insert the backstory (education, dna, biometrics, family history, medical history etc etc)
You have to link all these together in the central database without tripping any alarms.
You have to link them to your forged Sin.

Getting it through a contact
They probably have dozens of "unused" sins sitting around for people not interested in a solid match and just need to insert a few little details here and there based on your info.
They can have dozens of contacts putting in data and linking them.
They probably have backdoors into the more commonly used systems so rather than hacking in they just log in as Edwauardo J Fakenameyname and put in a record of Tom Lisa Hayes and his C average in school.

All in all its a lot quicker and easier because of those differences.

Have other people to do things rather than havnig to do it themself
Have legitimate or at least established ways into systems where you have to break in
Have a base matrix that they can probably call upon in order to supply rating 1 or 2 sins where the details don't really matter.

Now yes technically any character could do the same but its not something you can do on the side while running you'd need to make contact with people in those fields, get access to databases, get the tools and techniques to prepare it. There's a reason fixers by and large have retired and are just acting as middle men rather than running themselves.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Lucean on <03-19-15/0642:00>
It shouldn't matter who does the forging for the world to make sense. Starting at Rating 4 it should be hard to find a good match catching dust on a shelf, especially when you're more exotic or have distinctive features.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-19-15/0732:29>
Lucean
You might want to read the text I quoted again, paying particular attention to the following two lines:
"The fixers and syndicates who deal in false SINs and IDs have established channels and contacts that work in the issuing institutions and have multiple backdoors into the necessary databanks."

"Solo hackers and technomancers can forge their own SINs, but without the apparatus of contacts and backdoors in place the process is much longer and more diffilt than buying a fake SIN."

Individuals are not going to be able to get this done as quickly as a team. It's like the difference between buying a stolen car, and building the car from scratch. Possible, but ultimately much more time consuming.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Lucean on <03-19-15/0746:52>
Well, my mistake, yes. I concentrated only on the bolded part and you text with the needed time. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Syntetesh on <03-19-15/1455:00>
My thoughts is fake SIN are more like real stolen SIN, and the rating represent how much you are close of the original owner's biometrics

Indeed R4+ are provided with sample for DNA check
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Xenon on <03-19-15/1521:08>
and R6 got your biometrics....
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Syntetesh on <03-19-15/1526:57>
and R6 got your biometrics....

Quote from: CRB p.363
R6 : Alternate life; all statistics match; valid
biometrics with samples; complete and
entirely believable history

Edit : Nevermind, R5 specificly stat "of an other person" so R6 should be your own (Why highlight that you have sample of our own body, I don't know...)
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Tarislar on <03-19-15/1532:53>
The forgery skills seem more useful for a quick paper copy of something.  You know, actual Forged Signatures, Documents, maybe Art, etc etc.

Forging a SIN in 2070 would be like trying to Hack the DMV, the IRS, the SSA, some Corp HR, & probably a few more things that I can't think of or don't have RW comparisons today.  Possible.  Yes.  Good Enough to not be found in a background check?  That is a different matter all together.

Make a fake DL to let a 19yo get past a bouncer at a club so he/she can drink prior to 21.  Sure.
Make a fake DL that has an attached SSN at the DMV & SSA with bio info that matches the person in front of you.  Not Really.

Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Novocrane on <03-19-15/1809:07>
Quote
Edit : Nevermind, R5 specificly stat "of an other person" so R6 should be your own (Why highlight that you have sample of our own body, I don't know...)
Devil's advocate to my own opinion here; It's possible that R6 has valid biometrics that just don't lead to anyone. That would make it difficult if you ever find yourself being checked without a sample ready, though.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-19-15/2304:28>
Remember that an organization forging a SIN has a bunch of people doing the task - and doing it for several things simultaneously.  At the start of the day/week, they have a meeting, or the guy setting the things has a list of items set up that need to be planted.  "Sales of Widgets for these five SINS, uses of public toilets for these two," that sort of thing - and the more detailed (and thus higher-rated) the SIN is, the more work they go through, the deeper the SIN's history, the stronger it is, the more it costs and the more time it takes to get it done.  The thing that an organization has over John Hacker is that while he has to hack into thirty places to plant data, they have five people who each hack six places to plant the same data, and so get it done faster - and better.  And who will plant information for more than just one SIN.  Which, of course, your guy can do, but that means he has to do the job of the sixth guy, creating the structure and history of the SIN.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: shreck on <04-29-15/1739:41>
ho about just stealing one ?
just go to a place where you know a lot of  real "sin" are .
concert , sport event , libreray or cafť near a university .
look for someone near your build and fashial structure + age .
hack his comlink and do a copy file of his sin .
depending on how close a match you can find it can be a level 3-4 .
(yes it will burn up fast but any heat you pick up will go towards the origional owner of the sin ) .
unles your a basterd and geek the mark and take over his identety .
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Novocrane on <04-29-15/1759:06>
Going back to what you could do; with the Forgery skill and appropriate knowledge skills, it would make sense that someone could attempt to forge a person's SIN when they know all / enough of the info encoded into a SIN. Or they could prepare a SIN that would be flagged as a forgery the first time it was checked against GSR records.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-29-15/2254:24>
look for someone near your build and fashial structure + age .
hack his comlink and do a copy file of his sin .

Because going by the rules, you can't do this.  As a GM, I wouldn't let you do this except for a very, very desperate situation - 'save the city' sort of thing.  Why you can't do it is up to the GM - the SIN is copy-encrypted, and the act of trying to do so alters the encryption, and thus screws with the SIN inside.  Or perhaps the SIN is partially hardwired - flash-burned into a SIM card and loaded into the commlink at the time of purchase.  Whatever the reason, straight-up identity theft via commlink hack isn't allowed.  Identity theft via knocking the guy over the head, grabbing his commlink, and going off as him might work, so long as you aren't actually required to provide biometric samples - voice- or fingerprint is fastest, retina print is of course more secure.  But actually doing anything but walking past a SIN scanner - i.e. getting into an area - is going to require at least a passcode which, you not being the owner, aren't going to know.

Going back to what you could do; with the Forgery skill and appropriate knowledge skills, it would make sense that someone could attempt to forge a person's SIN when they know all / enough of the info encoded into a SIN. Or they could prepare a SIN that would be flagged as a forgery the first time it was checked against GSR records.
You could, yes.  Anyone with a minimum of skill could create a no-support 'Fake SIN', but what the heck would be the point of that, except to get someone arrested or shot?

... okay, so that could a good reason to do it.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Novocrane on <04-30-15/0055:10>
Why else? It relies on two points. First, that SIN numbers can be sixth world checksum'd - just throwing any old number at a SIN checker shouldn't be enough to get it to ask the GSR. Second, if a SIN checker can validate the number, then not everyone is going to run them online - usually those who want the appearance of legitimate business without turning away illegal (but paying) customers.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Xenon on <04-30-15/0348:52>
You can create and broadcast a forged SIN that give you a positive dice pool modifier of 1 or 2 dice when taking a Con test because Character have plausible-seeming evidence.

It will, however, instantly be revealed as a forgery by a SIN verification system (p. 146 for details).
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Novocrane on <04-30-15/0443:40>
If they're actually checking SINs, when has "I have a SIN (not really!)" ever been the requisite step to not being checked?

The SIN verification level of 'Do you have a SIN?' has a chance to burn a poorly made fake SIN, and (as you said) always burns a forgery. That's very poor for customer retention when SINless with bad fakes are your customer base. I'd go as far as saying that logging a validated SIN number and checking a SIN would be two different things in such places.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Xenon on <04-30-15/0804:58>
Maybe your PAN can broadcast that your name is Bob the Security Guard. You walk up to the security post. Dressed as a security guard.
"Hi, I am Bob the security Guard. Open up please".
Player roll Con test and depending on the success GM might respond with either:
"Welcome Bob the Security Guard"
or
"Bob the Security Guard you say? Stand by for standard SIN Verification, please".
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: Novocrane on <04-30-15/1655:38>
Or it could just be checked as you queue for the security checkpoint / enter the facility.

You're broadcasting. It's wireless. By the time you're talking to someone that works in security, it should have happened already.
Title: Re: [SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-01-15/0245:03>
I tend to think that there's two types of scanning/checking.  The first one is the actual scanner.  This is what you normally see just walking down the street - rating 1 or 2 at most.  The first is a R1 - 'Is this person broadcasting a SIN?  Great.'  The more expensive (R2) ones are going to check a) whether or not your SIN has the permissions to be there (i.e. your SIN is broadcasting a certain KIND of SIN, such as an Ares SIN) and/or b) if your gender, race, and metatype match the SIN.

When you're getting to the security checkpoint, though, you're looking at something higher - 3, 4, or more.  I'd put a R3 on any 'entering corporate territory' checkpoint, even if that's at a public-access mall or something.  If you're trying to get into an actual corporate-only building, that's a 4, maybe a 5.  And at any time, if you're claiming that you're actual security, I'd have it bump the check to a R6 check.

So I guess my concept isn't so much that the scanner itself is a rating, but that the check it's performing has one.