Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: trask on <12-22-10/1655:37>
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I have 2 questions regarding the technomancer and threading:
1. What kind of action is Threading? Is it a free action, simple action or a complex action?
2. Can you thread a complex from that you already possess? i.e. If i have an attack of 5 can I thread it to a potential 5 + (resonance * 2)?
Thank you.
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1. It's a skill test, so Complex probably.
2. No. As with spells, you have to re-thread it, counting on rolling more hits.
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1. Kot's got this one right, SR4A, page 148 lists some basic complex actions, including Use Skill. If a use of a skill doesn't specify what type of action it is, you default back to this rule.
2. This depends. But, you can never thread a complex rating past 2*Resonance, see underlined portion of quote below.
a. If you threaded the complex form, you cannot improve it by threading again, only by dropping that threaded complex form, and re-threading it.
b. If you purchased the complex form with BP or Karma, then you can thread the complex form to improve its over-all rating.
Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, or increase the rating of a complex form they do know. This process is known as threading. To thread a complex form, the technomancer makes a Software + Resonance Test. Each hit scored on the test can be used to increase the rating of a complex form by one; if the complex form is created from scratch, start at Rating 0. The technomancer can choose to discard some of the hits he scores. No threaded complex form can have a rating greater than twice the technomancer’s Resonance.
Your "Threaded Complex Form" has a Rating = Base Rating + Net Hits from the Threading Test. So if you have Attack 5, you can thread it to a potential (Resonance*2).
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Good catch on the complex action type. I've previously seen people claim that it's not an action.
Arguably, you could build on an improvised Complex Form, because after the first threading, you're no longer creating it "from scratch." I'm not sure which way is intended.
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Good catch on the complex action type. I've previously seen people claim that it's not an action.
Yeah, I've fallen into that mind-set before, myself. Didn't realize for the longest time that there was a Complex Action titled "Use Skill" that covered any non-specified action skill.
Arguably, you could build on an improvised Complex Form, because after the first threading, you're no longer creating it "from scratch." I'm not sure which way is intended.
The argument exists, and there's nothing to really say you can't, I suppose, but I'm not sure I'd let people use it. With a good pool to resist Fading, that makes it even cheaper for Techno's to get their complex form up to Resonance *2. Drain = Hits applied to the Complex Form, threaded rating is only used for Stun/Physical determination.
If I've got a DP of 9 for Fading, and I'm not under pressure, here's how it would go:
1. Thread Attack (currently at 0), discard all but 2 hits.
2. Resist Fading DP(9)=3 Hits, 0S taken.
3. Thread Attack (currently at 2), discard all but 2 hits
4. Resist Fading DP(9)=3 Hits, 0S taken.
Repeat, except change "0S" to "0P" once the threaded rating exceeds Resonance, until the threaded rating equals Resonance *2.
Even if you apply the penalty for sustaining a complex form to the Fading test, that still gives you 2 average hits, you just keep 1 hit each time and keep trucking.
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Another thing to keep in mind: There's a –2 penalty for retrying failed tests. I interpret that to include retrying because you don't like the result.
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Source: CGL FAQ (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#cmplx)
Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that Complex Form?
Threading does not require an action; any Fading damage taken applies before the technomancer's next action (or before they thread anything else). Threaded Complex Forms must be sustained, and the -2 dice pool modifier applies to all actions except those using the threaded complex form.
Can you thread a Complex Form, then use threading to increase its rating?
No. Threading can be used to create a Complex Form you do not know or to increase the rating of a Complex Form you do know (p.240, SR4A).
So, if you thread a smartlink Complex Form, can you fire any smartgun without incurring the -2 dice pool modifier for sustained the threaded smartlink Complex Form?
Yes, since the process of firing the smartgun involves using the smartlink Complex Form.
That should answer some questions. ;)
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Heh, an occasion where I might be inclined to follow the FAQ, even if it contradicts the RAW (specifically, the "Use Skill" action as defined on page 148 of SR4A).
Now, if they had said in the Threading section of SR4A, or an Errata, something to the effect of "Threading requires no action", then we'd be cooking with napalm.
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Yeah. I was wondering too. It would abuse the hell out of the game system, if Technomancers could 'cast' their 'spells' as a free action. Complex Forms would be a lot less useful then.
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those -2's stack up tho...
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@Kot: Not even a free action! There's at least a limit on those. I think it's far more appropriate for threading to take a complex action, same as spellcasting.
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Why?
An Attack in the Matrix is only a simple action, in reality it's a complex action.
And the "Use Skill"-thing is not really the deal, many skill uses aren't classified as complex action.
The use of a program itself isn't categorized in action, but all Matrix Actions using programs/CFs.
The question here is, which action category is the fairest?
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And the "Use Skill"-thing is not really the deal, many skill uses aren't classified as complex action.
However, all such skill uses are defined as not being a complex action, with the caveat on page 148 of SR4A that if a use of a particular skill doesn't specify what type of action it is, you default to a complex action.
The question here is, which action category is the fairest?
This is a valid question. Kot's comparison of threading to spellcasting is an unfortunate side effect of them building technomancer rules to mirror mage rules. Casting a spell, however, tends to be far more dramatic than threading a complex form. After all, when you finish threading, you still have to take another action to use it in some way. Whereas with a flamethrower spell, the target is already dying.
A better comparison would be to think of it like a hacker running a program, which is still a complex action. Therefore, I would consider the complex action to be a fair choice.
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The disconnect there is that you're "Threading" not "Using the Threading Skill."
Threading a CF uses the Threading skill, for sure, but it is a defined action in the text, even if that action isn't given a relative action value (i.e. free, simple, or complex.)
Also, 9 dice will get you 3 hits 62% of the time. 38% of the time, you won't be able to soak all the damage. So, stepping the CFs up like that isn't a guarantee. Naturally, you could discard all but 2 hits and just do it more times if this kind of thought is allowed...
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The disconnect there is that you're "Threading" not "Using the Threading Skill."
Threading a CF uses the Threading Software skill, for sure, but it is a defined action in the text, even if that action isn't given a relative action value (i.e. free, simple, or complex.)
As you say, they don't define an action for it. Where does it say "if we tell you how to make a test, assume that the action required, if necessary, will be specified". All other cases of non-action actions are actually reactions (opposed tests, damage soak, drain soak, threading soak) to an action. This is the only case I am aware of where anyone would argue that the initiation of an action requires no action, rather than defaulting to the rule that tells you how to use a skill.
Use Skill
A character may use an appropriate skill by taking a Complex Action (see Using Skills, p. 118).
So someone says "I want to Thread Armor". The GM says "that's a Software + Resonance Test, since no action is defined in the Threading section, we default to the rule that says 'using a skill is a complex action'".
I don't see a logical RAW counter-argument that doesn't rely on the FAQ, which itself is fairly flawed & contradictory to the RAW on multiple occasions discussed elsewhere.
Whether or not it should be a complex action or not is another story entirely.