Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Poindexter on <10-31-14/1735:54>

Title: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <10-31-14/1735:54>
Sister Rebecca

race- e human
loot- d 50000
stats- a 24
skills- b 36/5
mag- c mystic adept

bod- 4
agi- 5/7
rea- 4
str- 5
wil- 5
log- 2
int- 3
cha- 5
edg- 2
ess- 6
ini- 1d6+7
mag- 4

-qualities
Code of honor
Astral Beacon

-knowledges
magical threats 4
religion/christianity 3/5

-skills
blades/swords 6/8
spellcasting/health 6/8
assensing 5
banishing 4
counterspelling/combat 4/6
perception 3
astral combat 2
disenchanting 2
arcana 1
heavy weapons/grenade launchers 1/3
athletics group 2
outdoors group 3

-adept powers
improved agility 2
combat sense
empathic healing
enhanced accuracy, blades
astral perception

-spells
heal
increase reflexes
stabilize
armor
mana barrier

Lifestyle:
street

-weapons
sword, lvl 3 weapon focus
 gecko grip handle
Arm Tech MGL-12
 spare clip
 extreme environment mod lvl 1
 gecko grip
 weapon personality

-armor
Armor jacket
 YNT softweave
 fire resist 4
 chem protection 4
 nonconduct 4
 rad shield 3
 biomonitor
 trodes
helmet
 repirator lvl 6
 vision mag
 vision enhance lvl 2
 flare comp

-gear
Std credstick
Hermes Ikon
 sim mod
 bug scanner lvl 6
 micro transceiver
 tag eraser
 datasoft, daily bible verse
 datasoft, parafauna update
30 high explosive minigrenades
contacts
 thermographic
monofilament chainsaw
survival kit
climbing gear
3 vials of holy water (60 drams of reagenst)

-papers
lvl 4 fake SIN (Emily Sothering, Charity worker)

-contacts       loy    con
smuggler       3         3
cult member  4         1
beat cop         2         2

Going for the old school "smiter of demons and rebuker of satan" kinda thing here.

does it work?

I mean, aside from the piss poor initiative until she gets the spell off.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Shrazkil on <10-31-14/1749:49>
str boost 1 will do almost nothing for your build, better off agil boost 1.

Some tweaking could be done for optimization, but theme wise seems fine.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <10-31-14/1820:58>
i just figured any little extra bump in dmg is gonna be worth it.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-31-14/1821:42>
You may want to check the topic in my signature about Strength Boost. ^_^'
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Shrazkil on <10-31-14/1846:14>
i just figured any little extra bump in dmg is gonna be worth it.
He is alluding to the fact that strength increased through attribute boost only applies to dice rolls, so would not affect your damage at all, only strength tests like running, swimming, etc.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: 8-bit on <10-31-14/1856:19>
i just figured any little extra bump in dmg is gonna be worth it.
He is alluding to the fact that strength increased through attribute boost only applies to dice rolls, so would not affect your damage at all, only strength tests like running, swimming, etc.

Also stuff like Lifting/Carrying, but that's about it. Overall, Attribute Boost is fairly worthless for anything but Agility.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <10-31-14/2014:44>
Pally's have always been limited Casters, personally I would do Phys-Adpt, not Mys-Adpt.
More than enough powers available to them to mimic the minor casting of a Paladin.

Focusing on the traditional Pally Sword and Slaying Demons (Spirits) ..... You could pick up Combat Sense, Agility Boost, Increased Reflexes, Astral Perception, Pain Resistance, Improved Critical, Enhanced Perception, & Magic Sense, Improved Accuracy (Blades) to name a few.

Mentor Spirit of Eagle or Mediator would be solid choices for a "Paladin" type.

I'd probably swap Cash & Human, make him luckier.

Maybe something like this.....

A-Attr
B-Skills
C-Magic-Adept
D-Human
E-Cash
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-01-14/0613:56>
Mentor Spirit of Eagle or Mediator would be solid choices for a "Paladin" type.

I'd probably swap Cash & Human, make him luckier.

Maybe something like this.....

A-Attr
B-Skills
C-Magic-Adept
D-Human
E-Cash

Yeah, i really wanted to get her a mentor spirit, but i just couldnt find the karma, between everything else I had to pay for. And i NEED that cash. Can't afford no lvl 3 weapon focus and a grenade launcher without at least D.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1117:33>
Drop strength booth get critical strike (blades) will give you more damage with all bladed weapons. Spells wise, if you can get the stat boosting spells and either pick up some sustaining foci or quickening will help your character out. Otherwise, not bad set up.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: All4BigGuns on <11-01-14/1201:35>
Try this out:

A: Magic (Mystic Adept)
B: Attributes (20)
C: Resources (140,000)
D: Skills (22/0)
E: Meta-type (Human)

Attributes for this:
Body - 3
Agility - 4
Reaction - 3
Strength - 3
Willpower - 5
Logic - 3
Intuition - 3
Charisma - 4

For the skills under this setup:
Blades (Swords) - 6
Spellcasting - 5
Summoning - 4
Banishing - 5
Arcana - 2
Assensing - 1 (only if you pick up Astral Perception, which is useful to spot those "demons" aka spirits)
Leadership - 2
Etiquette - 1
Sneaking - 3
Pilot Groundcraft (Wheeled) - 1 (for your "steed" even if you need to wait until after a run or two to pick one up)

Adept Powers:
Astral Perception
Combat Sense 1
Critical Strike (Blades)
Improved Ability (Blades) 1
Improved Physical Attribute (Agility) 1
Improved Reflexes 2

Spells are to taste, but taking Increase Attribute (Body) and Increase Attribute (Strength) is well advised along with a couple of Force 3 Sustaining Foci to hold them.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Shrazkil on <11-01-14/1250:19>
Specced one out to see what ya think. Not super optimized , but very in the flavor.

Priorities:
Att- A
Skill - B
Magic - C mysad (soiux or chaos)
Money - D
Meta - E

B 3
A 6
R 3 (5)
S 5
W 5
L 2
I 5
C 3

Edge 2
Magic 4

Qualities and expendatures:
focused concentration 5
mentor spirit (bear or whatever you like)
20 points power points
4 points bind f2 manipulation foci
Code of honor -15K
Mod Allergy (uncommon) -10k
1 left

Powers:
I. Reflexes 2
combat sense
enhanced accuracy blades
attribute boost agility
Critical strike (blades)

Spells:
Flame aura (held on foci)
improved strength (held by focused)
Heal
Resist Pain
Armor

Skills:
Sorcery 6 (healing)
Perception 6
Heavy weapons 6
Con 2 (fast talk)
Counterspelling 6 (combat)
Blades (swords)
Stealth group 3
Influence group 2

Money : up to you but recommend the first 2
Force 2 manipulation sustaining foci (for flame aura) 8k
Force 2 weapon foci (blade) 14k (not bound at creation)

With buffs maintained (str,aura) you will have 15p damage with blades for some heavy smiting of your foes. With 7 accuracy and -2 ap for the one handed sword so you can sword and board.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1321:35>
For mentor sprites I would say look at DragonSlayer, since you can get both enhanced accuracy and danger sense for free and the negative aspect goes with idea of Paladin's code. Plus, you can used saved pp cost to buy improved ability (blades). Also, if you want to go two-hand power attack route (via d&d 3.5/pathfinder) combat axe -› claymore (then make the claymore your weapon focus post char gen). You won't have as high dice pool to start, will do more damage and have better AP. Also, if your GM allows custom grip that will raise either or both the combat axe and the claymore's accuracy again, give accuracy 6 and 7 respectively. I don't see Chaos tradition working for a Paladin, Souix maybe.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: 8-bit on <11-01-14/1324:21>
Might be a bit cliched, but I honestly keep thinking of the Christian tradition when I think of a Paladin in SR5.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1325:54>
Tradition wise I agree.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Shrazkil on <11-01-14/1331:40>
Might be a bit cliched, but I honestly keep thinking of the Christian tradition when I think of a Paladin in SR5.
Souix is very peacekeeping , and goes off on INT , which is what i was looking for. Christian is the obvious choice, but going off of charisma hurts alittle.

Depends on which incarnation of paladin you go with. 4.0 Dnd has them very generalized, paladins of just about any morality/belief.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Shrazkil on <11-01-14/1339:55>
For mentor sprites I would say look at DragonSlayer, since you can get both enhanced accuracy and danger sense for free and the negative aspect goes with idea of Paladin's code. Plus, you can used saved pp cost to buy improved ability (blades). Also, if you want to go two-hand power attack route (via d&d 3.5/pathfinder) combat axe -› claymore (then make the claymore your weapon focus post char gen). You won't have as high dice pool to start, will do more damage and have better AP. Also, if your GM allows custom grip that will raise either or both the combat axe and the claymore's accuracy again, give accuracy 6 and 7 respectively. I don't see Chaos tradition working for a Paladin, Souix maybe.
The adept power would only save .25 so still couldn't get I. Blades with it.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1502:56>
4th is dead, lol!  ;D Granted, I am not a big fan of 5th (aka next either). But, counter argument is that traditional paladins have been associated with Cha, so being Cha based tradition is not bad at all, plus the ability to have some social skills also fits within the paladin idea as well.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1531:42>
Ah, true I just realized it. 1 point in agility boost + magic 4 only gives 5 dice for the boost, which might give you one hit. In this case, either buy another rank in attribute boost (AGI) or drop it for improved ability (blades) since that power has no drain and doesn't require an action to activate.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-01-14/1734:08>
Ended up swapping boost str for combat sense.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-01-14/1746:36>
One of the best powers in the game!  8)
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-02-14/1105:12>
Might be a bit cliched, but I honestly keep thinking of the Christian tradition when I think of a Paladin in SR5.
A lot of real-world religions have traditions of ascetics or holy warriors that could fit the concept. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism (which shouldn't be too hard to build a tradition around), Aztec (jaguar or eagle warriors)...etc.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: 8-bit on <11-02-14/1127:05>
Might be a bit cliched, but I honestly keep thinking of the Christian tradition when I think of a Paladin in SR5.
A lot of real-world religions have traditions of ascetics or holy warriors that could fit the concept. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism (which shouldn't be too hard to build a tradition around), Aztec (jaguar or eagle warriors)...etc.

Oh, true. I'm not denying it. Just keeps coming to my mind for some reason; especially the lay on hands thing (which I don't think is originally based in Christianity, I could be wrong.)
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-02-14/1157:50>
Yeah, technically, it could be any tradition, but im going for the old school d and d paladin here.

It's GOTTA be jesus, dude.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-02-14/1210:22>
Lol, that is what kind I figured you where aiming for. Next question, sword and board or two-hand smiting monster?
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <11-02-14/1424:18>
Yeah, i really wanted to get her a mentor spirit, but i just couldnt find the karma, between everything else I had to pay for. And i NEED that cash. Can't afford no lvl 3 weapon focus and a grenade launcher without at least D.

Try this on for size.


Real Name:  Paul E. Dunne
Street Name:  Jedi


Priorities:
A-Attr-24
B-Mag-6+4-Adept
C-Human-5
D-Cash-$50K
E-Skills-18

Attributes:
Body-3
Agility-5
Reaction-3 (5)
Strength-5
Willpower-5
Logic-1
Intuition-6
Charisma-4
Edge-7
Essence-6
Magic-6
Initiative-(11+3d)
Defense-12
Armor-14

Skills:
Group-Influence-1*
Group-Stealth-1*
Arcana-1*
Assensing-6  -  (Aura Reading+2)
Blades-6  -  (Swords+2)
Heavy Weapons-1  -  (Grenade Launchers+2)
Perception-6  -  Mentor+2

Qualities/Karma Spending:  (25+25-43)
Allergy-Mild-Pollutants  (Mentor)
Allergy-Moderate-Strawberries +10
Code of Honor +15
The Beast's Way*  (Eagle) -20
Bind Weapon (1) Focus  -3
Contacts -8  (6/1, 4/3, 1/5)
Skills* -12
Remaining -7

Adept Powers:
Agility Boost-1  (0.25)
Astral Perception*  (0.5)
Combat Sense-1*  (0.0)
Critical Strike-Blades  (0.5)
Enhanced Perception-1  (0.5)
Heightened Concentration  (0.5)
Improved Reflexes-2  (2.5)
Improved Sense  (0.25)
Magic Sense*  (0.25)
Memory Displacement  (0.25)
Traceless Walk*  (0.5)

Gear Basics:  (For 1st Run)
Low Lifestyle - $2,000
Combat Knife - $300
Survival Knife - $100
Sword - Weapon Focus-1 w/ Personalized Grip - $7,600
ArmTech MGL-12 w/ Airburst Link, Fore Grip, Laser Sight, & Shockpads - $5,775
Extra Clips-6, Flashbang-12, HE-6, AP-6, TS-3, Smk-3, Gas-CS-3, Gas-PP-3 - $3,045
Hidden Arm Slide *2  -  $700
Globetrotter Jacket (Fire-4) + Helmet w/ Trodes, Audio-2, Vision-2 = $3,470
Hermes-Icon w/ Sim Moduel & Microtranceiver - $3,200
Fake SIN-4 - $10,000
Fake Licenses-4 * (Melee, Concealment, Firearms, Ammunition) - $3,200
First Aid Kit-6 w/ Trauma Pack - $2,000
Suzuki Mirage - $8,500
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-02-14/1833:48>
Why get eagle over either dragonslayer or wise warrior, both have more thematic appeal with the idea the eagle, which while combat sense is one of the best powers, the others are strong options as well. Also, beast way does not fit generic d&d paladin.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: TormDK on <11-02-14/1853:21>
Why would a classic D&D paladin have any sort of skill points in ranged weapons, and stealth related skilled?

I made a similar adept for my game table as an experiment. This is the result (Yes, he does have pistol skill but generally only loaded with gel rounds as to keep people in the barrens away! :))

You could easily get some more attribute points to do more min/maxing, but I figured it would be better to be about average in most areas for a more believable character.

..

Torm Smith
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 5, R 5/8, S 3, W 4, L 3, I 5, C 4, ESS 6, EDG 7, M 6
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 10
Armor: 14
Limits: Physical 6, Mental 5, Social 6
Physical Initiative: 10/13+4D6
Active Skills: Arcana 1, Blades 6, Etiquette 2, Leadership 4, Perception 6, Pilot Ground Craft 1, Pistols 4, Unarmed Combat 1
Knowledge Skills: Knight templar History 4, Neo choir music 2, Seattle club scenes 1, Seattle Fixers 2, Seattle gangs 1, Seattle talismongers 2, Seattle urban legends 1
Languages: English N, Latin 3
Qualities: Adept, Code of Honor: Warrior's way (8dicepool vs. 4), Guts, Mentor Spirit: Dragonslayer
Adept Powers: Combat Sense (5), Danger Sense (1), Enhanced Accuracy: Pistols, Improved Reflexes (3)
Vehicles:
   Harley-Davidson Scorpion [Handling 4/3, Speed 4, Accel 2, Body 8, Armor 9, Pilot 1, Sensor 2, Seats 1]
Gear:
   Armor Jacket
   Ballistic Mask (Customized) w/ Biomonitor, Flare Compensation, Gas Mask, Image Link, Smartlink
      Transys Avalon Commlink
   Torm "Paladin" Smith w/ Fake License: Awakened (4), Fake License: Bladed weapon (4), Fake License: Concealed Carry (4), Fake SIN (4), (1 month) Low Lifestyle
   Transys Avalon Commlink
Weapons:
   Defiance EX Shocker [Taser, Acc 5, DV 9S(e), AP -5, SS, 4 (m)]
   Ruger Super Warhawk [Heavy Pistol, Acc 8, DV 9P, AP -6, SS, 6 (cy)] w/ Advanced Safety System, (3x) APDS, Extreme Environment Modification (2), (3x) Gel Rounds, Safe Target System, Smartgun System, Internal, (2x) Speed Loader
   Sword Weapon Focus (2) [Blade,Blade, Reach 1, Acc 6, DV 6P, AP -2] w/ Weapon Focus (2)
Contacts:
Bartender (Connection 1, Loyalty 1)
Fixer (Connection 4, Loyalty 2)
Talismonger (Connection 3, Loyalty 4)

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2014 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <11-02-14/1904:28>
Why get eagle over either dragonslayer or wise warrior, both have more thematic appeal with the idea the eagle, which while combat sense is one of the best powers, the others are strong options as well. Also, beast way does not fit generic d&d paladin.
1.  Dragonslayer is a fun loving brawler.  Not what I'd call a Paladin.  Eagle is the most Noble, as well as Proud & Solitary.  Seems more Paladinish.
Wise Warrior would also fit.
2.  I actually had it down as Enhanced Perception, not Combat Sense, my mistake, I corrected it but I didn't choose it for Combat Sense at all.
3.  Paladin's are Spiritual Warriors, they don't all have to fit the mold of Knight Templar, a Japanese Samurai could just as easily be a Paladin, ditto a Moorish warrior from the holy lands or a tribal warrior from the Americas.

I went with the spirit of the Paladin v/s the English Crusader feel of the paladin.

Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <11-02-14/1907:40>
Why would a classic D&D paladin have any sort of skill points in ranged weapons, and stealth related skilled?
1.  Ranged because the OP wanted a Grenade Launcher.
2.  Stealth because this is still Shadowrun & its supposed to be a Runner.  Minor stealth skills are kind of a must.


Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-02-14/1932:25>
Lol, that is what kind I figured you where aiming for. Next question, sword and board or two-hand smiting monster?

Right now, she's either sword and open hand or nade launcher, which i suppose IS the two-hand smiting monster.

Why would a classic D&D paladin have any sort of skill points in ranged weapons, and stealth related skilled?

cause she's not a paladin FROM d & d, transported here by some mystic means, she's a holy warrior of Jesus raised on the mean streets of the 6th world. I purposely didn't give her any ranks in Con cause she doesn't believe in lying. Lying is something the weak and cowardly do. The brave and strong have no need to mask their intentions.

Try this on for size.

Skills:
Group-Influence-1*
Group-Stealth-1*
Arcana-1*
Assensing-6  -  (Aura Reading+2)
Blades-6  -  (Swords+2)
Heavy Weapons-1  -  (Grenade Launchers+2)
Perception-6  -  Mentor+2

It all works except for two things.

1- throwing B into magic gives her more spells than i wanted. she should be a rather limited caster

2- she NEEDS those ranks in banish and counter to really work right. It's more than just slaying the minions of satan, its about rebuking their schemes and machinations as well.

I AM gonna throw a foregrip on the nade launcher though. Visually, it just looks better in my head like that. Good idea.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Imveros on <11-04-14/0801:18>
if he is a holy warrior, why not DEUS VULT! advantage?!

Assassin's primer P16
Quote
Advantages: The assassin’s faith sustains him even in the face of terrible wounds.

You just need to assume the word assassin is used liberally and it seems right up his thematic ally pay for it with . You could pay for it with a distinctive style, old style pally, or maybe even a social stress, for whatever traumatic action brought him into Jesus's loving embrace!
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <11-05-14/1824:42>
1- throwing B into magic gives her more spells than i wanted. she should be a rather limited caster

2- she NEEDS those ranks in banish and counter to really work right. It's more than just slaying the minions of satan, its about rebuking their schemes and machinations as well.
I made it as a plain adept not a Mystic.  No spells at all, just magical qualities with enhanced speed, senses, aim, etc.
Felt more right to me.  Jedi smites via the Sword.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-06-14/1035:09>
1- throwing B into magic gives her more spells than i wanted. she should be a rather limited caster

2- she NEEDS those ranks in banish and counter to really work right. It's more than just slaying the minions of satan, its about rebuking their schemes and machinations as well.
I made it as a plain adept not a Mystic.  No spells at all, just magical qualities with enhanced speed, senses, aim, etc.
Felt more right to me.  Jedi smites via the Sword.

Yeah, i tried to do her as a phys adept first, but it just didn't feel right.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Poindexter on <11-06-14/1459:49>
I've really been toying with the idea of trying to make a "burnout paladin", if ya catch my drift, but making all the numbers work out right is hard.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: 8-bit on <11-06-14/1525:50>
I've really been toying with the idea of trying to make a "burnout paladin", if ya catch my drift, but making all the numbers work out right is hard.

I would go with straight up Physical Adept or straight up Magician at that point. Mystic Adepts are hard enough to get everything to fall into place without going burnout.
Title: Re: Tried to make a "Paladin" in shadowrun 5th. How'd I do?
Post by: Tarislar on <11-10-14/1943:46>
I would go with straight up Physical Adept or straight up Magician at that point. Mystic Adepts are hard enough to get everything to fall into place without going burnout.
Agreed.
Actually, I'd go so far as to say the only "Burnouts" that I really care for are Physical Adepts & Conjurers.