Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Erling on <08-18-14/0517:29>
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Sammy and Adept are fighting each other.
Sammy has 14 dice for ranged attack test, Adept has 12+4 dice for defense test (12 for attributes, 4 for good cover). Both have quite adequate chances for success (even taking into account different firing modes which can reduce Adept's dice pool, but for simplicity let's assume Sammy uses SS weapon), and Adept really benefits from cover.
Eventually Adept gets fully hidden behind cover (hunkers down, moves towards a larger piece of cover or something like that). And what happens then?
Sammy gets -6 modifier for the total of 8 dice.
Adept is now considered unaware of attack. He can still benefit from cover modifier (his defense pool will be 4 dice). It's equal to -12 modifier for defense test.
And let's not forget that on a tie Sammy will hit Adept as well (rule from p. 190).
Damage reduction is ludicrous: 1 box of damage for SS/SA.
The only case when Adept can benefir from full cover is hiding behind a really really strong cover, Reinforced Material of higher (depends on Sammy's weapon DV, AP and net hits).
Does anyone else think it's not OK? Maybe I've missed something?
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Yes, turning your back against the shooter is a bad idea when you have 12 dice to avoid getting hit... Go out there and dodge bullets will ya!
For even more protection the adept can run (free; -2 to hit him, +2 to defend) in combination with hit the dirt (interrupt; another +2 to defend), take cover (simple; another +2 or +4 to defend) or sprint (complex; another -2 to hit him).
If you are going behind full cover you need a way to still see your attacker (maybe an augmented reality overlay image feed from your long range sniper drone or the camera feed from your own smartgun -that btw also let you return fire around corners without having to take the blind fire modifier).
An alternative to cover if you want your opponent to get the blind fire modifier is to cast an invisibility spell (complex [or simple for reckless]; -6 to hit him) or maybe have the decker turn off the lights while you activate thermographic vision vision enhancement, ultrasound sensor headware or astral perception...
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Yep! Being fully behind cover (and thus unaware of an attack) sucks.
I'd argue that this is purely because of the ridiculous Penetrating Weapons rule. If you instead use the rules for barrier damage resistance, this becomes much less of an issue.
Say the Samurai is firing an Ares Alpha with APDS at a target hidden behind a brick wall. Using the Penetrating Weapons rule, the DV inflicted upon the target (if he hits) is automatically 11-1= 10DV + net hits, with the full AP of -6.
If you discard the entire Penetrating Weapons section of the Barriers rules and instead use the Shooting Through Barriers paragraph, the brick wall would resist the 11DV + net hits with Structure 10 + Armor (16-6), or 20 dice, for 5 hits (using the buying hits rules). In order for the round to pass through the brick wall and hit the target on the other side, the DV would have to be 11; this means the Samurai would have to achieve 5 net hits with his Ares Alpha (11+5 net hits = 16DV, 16DV - 5 DV Resisted = 11, which exceeds the modified AV of the wall (16-6)).
Using this alternative, at least to my mind, greatly improves the usefulness of APDS ammo and high AP weapons, if you're consistently firing guns at targets behind walls. Yes, the Penetrating Weapons rule also takes AV of the material into consideration, but as long as you can beat the material AV with your modified DV, you're golden. An Ares Alpha with APDS can chew through everything up to concrete and metal beams with a few lucky hits (11+5-1=15, if using SA).
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And, what does a FMJ, made from 80 years ago do to a brick nowadays???
Of those two rules you quote, I see them doing very different things.... 1 rule is putting a small hole In the barrier, but it holds firm, and continues to provide cover.
The other blows a 1 meter wide hole. Thus no cover bonus, and other bad things if a support wall....
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Reaver
Not quite; the rule I reference is not Destroying Barriers, but Shooting Through Barriers. Quite a large difference, I agree; the Penetrating Weapons rule just doesn't make sense to me when we already have a Shooting Through Barriers rule, just two paragraphs or so prior to the Penetrating Weapons section.
And a modern day 7.62 FMJ going through a brick wall will still lose some momentum and potentially fragment, which is kind of my point. A 1DV loss does not accurately represent this concept, to my mind.
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Your example against someone hiding behind a tree (but not using rules for Penetration Weapons) require only 2 hits from the attacker (not net hits) to create a 1 square meter hole(!)
From a single bullet.......
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Who are you addressing, Xenon? Because the rule you're quoting is not what I referenced at all.
Let's revise, shall we?
SR5 p197 lists three options. Shooting Through Barriers, Destroying Barriers, and Penetrating Weapons (and Body Barriers, but lets leave that alone for now).
Shooting Through Barriers is what I propose using for... well, shooting through a barrier, instead of the Penetrating Weapons section which just seems contradictory; this would simply mean that the barrier would absorb X damage, and the rest carried through to the intended target. It would NOT mean that the shot automatically gained the benefit of the Destroying Barriers rule.
I never indicated that I thought the rules for Destroying Barriers should be used for the damage the barrier takes, and you could have simply asked if that was what I mean instead of jumping to conclusions, neh?
Finally, the Destroying Barriers rules allow you to do just that with a single bullet, if you so choose, because it places the emphasis on "intent". If I intend to shoot the tree to destroy it, I can, at least from a crazy rules-lawyerist perspective, create a 1m2 hole with a single bullet. But I think you and I both agree that that is a preposterous suggestion, and neither of us actually suggest that that is how we would be running the game.
Sound about right?
To summarize;
I feel the Penetrating Weapons section of the Barriers rules are superfluous as far as shooting THROUGH a barrier is concerned.
I think the the Shooting Through Barriers section of the Barriers rules work just fine on their own.
For the purposes of Destroying Barriers, one uses the rules for Destroying Barriers as written.
The alternative, which you have at least indirectly submitted, is that I have no way to cause a large hole in a pane of plastiboard or glass by shooting it with my pistol or even shotgun, as the bullet would just inflict 1P damage on it and otherwise remain whole. Is that what you are suggesting?
Let's face it; these rules are ambiguous and largely abstracted. There are going to be some weird stuff happening, but I really don't believe the Penetrating Weapons rules part belongs and can easily be removed with little to no mechanical difference.
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You aren't reading the rules correctly, martin.
Shooting Through Barriers specifies that all unresisted damage is dealt to the structure, and you only do damage to the target behind the barrier if your attack exceeds the Structure Rating of the barrier. If you do more damage to a barrier than its Structure Rating, you are inherently destroying the barrier, and punch a 1m x 1m x 10cm hole in it. Shooting Through Barriers also directly references Penetration Weapons, so you can't just ignore that section when it comes to shooting through a barrier.
Using your example of an Ares Alpha loaded with APDS with 5 net hits, That's 16 DV, -6 AP against Structure 10, Modified armor 10. Your modified DV is greater than its modified Armor, so you deal the full 16 DV to the barrier. It gets 5 hits on damage resistance, reducing the damage to 11. It then takes 10 Structure damage, which creates a 1 meter hole. The remaining 1 DV transfers to the target behind the barrier and probably does nothing.
Penetration Weapons is a lot more realistic, considering that the vast majority of things you could hide behind totally won't stop bullets. It only applies if the modified DV of the attack is greater than the armor rating of what you're hiding behind, so if your enemy is firing armor piercing rounds at you, you better be ducking behind a huge block of concrete, because anything less will barely slow it down. That seems pretty realistic to me.
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I never indicated that I thought the rules for Destroying Barriers should be used for the damage the barrier takes...
When you hit the barrier you will damage it
(no matter if your intent is to hit a target behind the barrier or not).
Either the attack will use Destroying Barriers Rule or it will use Penetration Weapons Rules.
According to table Damaging Barriers on p. 198 you use Destroying Barriers Rules (standard DV or double base DV) for everything except Projectiles and bullets that use Penetration Weapons Rules.
You suggest that Projectiles and bullets does not use Penetration Weapons Rules.
Ergo...?
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I think that the main problem with the penetrating weapon rules is that "bulletproof" materials don't stop much in the way of bullets. Some examples:
Ballistic Glass (armor 6): Light pistols have a base DV starting at 6P, with a minimum of 1 net hit makes 7P DV, which penetrates the bulletproof glass and does 6P to the original target. This is, aside from hold out pistols, the lightest weapon available.
Armored Glass or Kevlar wallboard (Armor 12): A powerful heavy pistol (9P and -1 AP) with with 3 net hits (12P DV) will blow through the barrier depositing 11P DV (still with -1 AP) to the target. three net hits is not uncommon, especially in the case of the kevlar wallboard where the target gets no defense roll (unaware of attack) or at best is -6 (cannot see attacker) without specific circumstances that might allow him to get around that.
Brick or plascrete (Armor 16): Here, it gets a little more effective - it is highly likely to stop pistols (unless loaded with APDS), but Assault rifles (which are quite common) can blow through it easily. The Ares Alpha or Yamaha Raiden only needs 4 hits to penetrate with normal ammo.
This is with NORMAL ammo. Adding APDS into the mix makes concrete a mere 4 hits to penetrate with an assault rifle. That's almost 4 inches of concrete with an only slightly above average roll for many PCs (after accounting for -6 for blind fire against an unopposed defense, assuming a DP of 15 for 5 stat, 6 skill, 2 specialization, and 2 smartlink).
I think that the barrier should reduce the damage by more than one based on the AP of the round and the armor or body of the barrier. So weapons that are powerful would still be largely unaffected by weak barriers, but the more powerful materials would have a significant effect on the damage. Maybe something like the damage is reduced by 50% - 5% per point that the DV exceeds the modified Armor. Or maybe subtract half the body of the barrier from the damage going through with each point of AP reducing the effect by 5% (so an AP of -10 would incur no penalty). I'm spitballing, but you should get the idea.
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Yes, but "bulletproof" materials would really be better described as "bullet resistant." Ballistic glass will not stop large rounds. An Assault Rifle totally will punch a hole in Kevlar. And Armor Piercing rounds? Forget about it.
The only thing I think is missing from the Penetration Weapons rules is something that takes the thickness of the material into account. As written, 10 centimeters of hardwood is just as easy to pierce as 1 meter of it, and that's nonsensical. Either Armor needs to increase with thickness, or Structure should do more to stop the bullet.
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Yes, but "bulletproof" materials would really be better described as "bullet resistant." Ballistic glass will not stop large rounds. An Assault Rifle totally will punch a hole in Kevlar. And Armor Piercing rounds? Forget about it.
Ballistic glass won't stop ANY bullets (well, okay, flechette rounds, gel rounds, and hollow points, maybe). Even hold out pistols start at 6P, which with a single hit will penetrate it. There are simply no firearms that ballistic glass will stop, and at a mere -1 to DV, it won't even slow them down. You might as well have regular glass. Considering flechette rounds, a regular glass window will stop bullets (2+5 becomes an effective 7 armor, so a single hit becomes 7P DV, which does not exceed the armor), so it's a little broken the other way too, I suppose.
The only thing I think is missing from the Penetration Weapons rules is something that takes the thickness of the material into account. As written, 10 centimeters of hardwood is just as easy to pierce as 1 meter of it, and that's nonsensical. Either Armor needs to increase with thickness, or Structure should do more to stop the bullet.
Increasing the thickness should increase the structure (per p 197 "Every square meter (of about 10 centimeters thickness) of material has a number of box- es equal to the Structure rating of the barrier"), but yeah, it does nothing for the armor meaning a bullet that can pierce 3 inches of concrete can just as easily pierce 20 feet of it. It enters into house-rule territory, but I think I would at least repeat the test for every 10 centimeters of thickness. So, every 10 centimeters reduces the DV by 1 and if the DV ever drops below the modified AV before exiting the barrier, the bullet is stopped. Of course, does that mean that the ballistic glass that is less than 1" thick only has a Structure of 1?
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Just bin the whole section on cover, as pointed out it's completely unrealistic & unworkable.
I don't know what I would use in it's place, but the existing rules are worse than knowledgable GM handwaving it.
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purvue, just as a sidenote:
You just have to reach the modified armor with your DV, now.
So a Yamaha Raiden with 11P AP-2 needs 3 hits against Armor 16, not 4 and with 6P weapons you just aren't allowed to glitch against Armor 6 barriers.
This is also important with Hardened Armor and the conversion of Physical damage to Stun damage.
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Yes, turning your back against the shooter is a bad idea when you have 12 dice to avoid getting hit... Go out there and dodge bullets will ya!
To be honest, taking full cover in not turning your back against shooter, it's what it is - taking cover. Also in SR5 there's no penalty for being outflanked of shot from the rear as long as you're already engaged in combat, i.e. you know you can be shot. Attacker won't even have positive modifer, as Character Has Superior Position is a melee combat mod.
...in combination with hit the dirt (interrupt; another +2 to defend)
1. Rule from p. 168 mentions that Hit the Dirt is only used when caught in suppressive fire. 2. Why do you think it provides additional +2?
...take cover (simple; another +2 or +4 to defend)
Why do you think that Take Cover action will provide additional bonus? Adept is already fully covered, and that's why he at least can roll 4 dice.
If you are going behind full cover you need a way to still see your attacker (maybe an augmented reality overlay image feed from your long range sniper drone or the camera feed from your own smartgun -that btw also let you return fire around corners without having to take the blind fire modifier).
An alternative to cover if you want your opponent to get the blind fire modifier is to cast an invisibility spell (complex [or simple for reckless]; -6 to hit him) or maybe have the decker turn off the lights while you activate thermographic vision vision enhancement, ultrasound sensor headware or astral perception...
It's always good to have variants, but, however, that doesn't negate the fact full cover itself is screwed :(
"It's good idea to have a cover, it gives me +4 for my defense. I've already dodged three attacks. But those Renraku guards are outnumbering us, so I'll better move behind that concrete wall. Wow, now I have full cover, and I'm certainly not gonna be hi.." - BANG! Runner's brain is blasted.
In fact, SR5 is only system I know which makes full cover a worse option than drowing yourself straight and standing uncovered.
Hell, even SR4A, if I recall correctly, gave -6 to the attacker and +4 to the defender WITHOUT making defender unaware of attack and WITHOUT taking away from him his normal defense dice pool (though it was only Reaction-based in SR4A, it was fair enough).
More than that, SS/SA is a favourable option for shooting fully covered enemies, as you will have only -1 damage box mod! You don't even have to spray bullets and pray for hitting the guy behind the wall (it's even a worse option, as you'll have more severe negative damage mod) - as long as you have idea he's somewhere there you can just pull the trigger and get him.
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Hit the dirt = defender prone = +2 dice
Alternative is to spend simple action to lay down (already spend free on running in my example)
In my example adept is running (not in full cover)
Take cover stack with running.
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p. 189 gives a -2 penalty for being prone.
You can count as having cover for being prone and have a certain distance to the attacker, though. But getting prone behind cover would not increase that bonus.
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No.... -2 to defend from p.189 does not apply to ranged combat (except maybe at very close range, like 5 meters).
I am talking about the positive modifier to defend you get from Good Cover; This modifier can also apply to prone targets that are at least twenty meters away from their attackers
(Earlier I thought it was only +2 dice for spending a simple action to lay down in addition to the +2 to defend and -2 to get hit from being considered running, but it turned out to be +4. This mean you get more cover from "[standing up +] run + laying down" then you get from "running +sprinting").
Yes, prone behind cover does not stack (but I never claimed that)
I typed running in combination with one of the three options 1) prone 2) cover or 3) sprint
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Yes, turning your back against the shooter is a bad idea when you have 12 dice to avoid getting hit... Go out there and dodge bullets will ya!
For even more protection the adept can run (free; -2 to hit him, +2 to defend) in combination with hit the dirt (interrupt; another +2 to defend), take cover (simple; another +2 or +4 to defend) or sprint (complex; another -2 to hit him).
If you are going behind full cover you need a way to still see your attacker (maybe an augmented reality overlay image feed from your long range sniper drone or the camera feed from your own smartgun -that btw also let you return fire around corners without having to take the blind fire modifier).
An alternative to cover if you want your opponent to get the blind fire modifier is to cast an invisibility spell (complex [or simple for reckless]; -6 to hit him) or maybe have the decker turn off the lights while you activate thermographic vision vision enhancement, ultrasound sensor headware or astral perception...
Looks like I misunderstood your comment. At first I thought you suggest stacking full cover with additional Take Cover.
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No worries. I can see now how it can be read that way.
mm... what can you stack with Take Cover....
Creating or increasing an environmental modifier (smoke grenade, turn off the light or creating a strong glare) or have the magician cast invisibility (akin to a -6 total darkness environmental modifier) would make you even harder to hit by melee and ranged attacks.
Send your melee adept into melee combat with the ranged opponent will make it harder for him to hit you with ranged attacks while you hunker down in cover.
Creating enough noise to disable the wireless bonus of your ranged opponents smartgun would make you slightly harder to hit.
Already considered running when you spend your simple action to take cover make you harder to hit and also give you bonus to defend against the attack.
Taking cover in a moving vehicle make it easier to defend against the attack than if you take cover behind something stationary.
Spending 10 initiative score on full defense let you add willpower to all your defense tests.
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Well... Thank you for your narration, but it's quite far from topic, isn't it? As I said, those variants don't negate the fact the full cover is screwed in SR5 :-\
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I think that the main problem with the penetrating weapon rules is that "bulletproof" materials don't stop much in the way of bullets. Some examples:
Ballistic Glass (armor 6): Light pistols have a base DV starting at 6P, with a minimum of 1 net hit makes 7P DV, which penetrates the bulletproof glass and does 6P to the original target. This is, aside from hold out pistols, the lightest weapon available.
Hmnn.
I think things might not be as bad as all that. I was just re-reading the Barriers section.
Penetrating weapons is a modification of the Shooting Through Barriers rules. With Shooting Through Barriers, step 1 is, is the Weapon's DV higher then the modifed Armor of the Barrier? If yes, then resist the damage by rolling Structure + Armor.
Now, if you don't have a Penetrating Weapon, you have to get past the Structural Rating of the Material. Otherwise the Barrier absorbs all the unresisted damage.
If you do have a Penetrating Weapon, the Barrier only takes one box of the unresisted damage, or 0 if your GM is feeling nasty. The rest go through.
So, against your 6P light pistol, yes, it can get through Ballistic Glass. Let's say you get 4 hits, dead average on 12 dice. So that's 10P. The glass is resisting with 10 dice, so that's probably 3 hits, for 7P. Subtract 1 box, and you're looking at 6P again. Not quite as bad as what you were postulating, where the defender is looking at 6P from only one success on the roll.
Of course, with glass, you still get your defense test. So in that case if you hit, the glass is effectively giving you another plus 10 armor.
Kevlar wallboard would be better. In that case, the barrier is resisting with 20 dice. So, your 12 DV gets resisted with an average of 6 successes and gets knocked down to 6DV, with an AP of -1. Still not great, but more survivable then getting hit directly.
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DMK, the problem is under RAW Penetrating Weapons rule is a specific one, so you should use it instead of rolling Structure+Armor.
Sure, it could be intended that you roll Structure+Armor and then Structure takes only 1 box from ((modified DV) - (structure+armor roll hits)) for SS/SA, 2 boxes for SA-burst/BF etc., but... It's not RAW, it's RAI. Maybe.
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So if I understand this right, when faced with anyone who has > 6 of defense dice, you need to bring out your folding changing screen (like the ones in the doctor's office you change behind) and set it up in front of you, then shoot blind through it, for an increased chance of hitting the target?
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DMK, the problem is under RAW Penetrating Weapons rule is a specific one, so you should use it instead of rolling Structure+Armor.
Sure, it could be intended that you roll Structure+Armor and then Structure takes only 1 box from ((modified DV) - (structure+armor roll hits)) for SS/SA, 2 boxes for SA-burst/BF etc., but... It's not RAW, it's RAI. Maybe.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's RAW. Penetration Weapons
If the weapon you’re using is primarily a penetrating
weapon, like a firearm or a pointed sword, then the barrier
takes 1 box of unresisted damage (or no damage at
all at the gamemaster’s discretion), allowing the rest to
transfer to the target behind it.
The bold emphasis is mine. My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?
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My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?
I would counter that question with the opposite question: How can you take unresisted damage if you rolled to resist? 'Unresisted Damage' tends to imply a situation where you do not get to roll to resist, like in the case of Allergies, Drug crashes, stim patches and so forth.
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So if I understand this right, when faced with anyone who has > 6 of defense dice, you need to bring out your folding changing screen (like the ones in the doctor's office you change behind) and set it up in front of you, then shoot blind through it, for an increased chance of hitting the target?
Attach a camera to the side facing the enemy (preferably somewhere near the top, to avoid shooting through it) and you've got a setup that's usable against all enemies (and if I interpret this correctly, it'd allow you to get full cover against enemies, while retaining your defense roll - you are aware of everything going on the other side after all). Heck - design some sort of harness for it so that you don't need to use a hand for it/spend time setting this up.
Ares VelvetPro Smart Cover System (TM), firefights with a dash of fashion! Available in black, pink and urban camo; while supplies last.
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Reckless cast invisibility on yourself.
Shot your target with a firearm (or indirect combat spell)
You see your target
Your target can't see you
You can attack your target just fine
You can defend against attacks from your target
Target get blind fire to attack you
Target does not get to defend against your attack
gg
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Reckless cast invisibility on yourself.
Shot your target with a firearm (or indirect combat spell)
You see your target
Your target can't see you
You can attack your target just fine
You can defend against attacks from your target
Target get blind fire to attack you
Target does not get to defend against your attack
gg
A neat alternative, though:
1. With magicians being pretty rare, this is probably a more costly option. If you're a magician yourself, it's still drain (especially for reckless casting) + sustaining spell.
2. There's a chance someone will see through your magic illusion, less chance to see through a physical, opaque object.
3. It's not nearly as cool as running with a tricked-out shower curtain in front of you.
4. Does not make 'full cover' any less flawed (not that the problem with full cover is game breaking; it's simply silly).
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My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?
I would counter that question with the opposite question: How can you take unresisted damage if you rolled to resist? 'Unresisted Damage' tends to imply a situation where you do not get to roll to resist, like in the case of Allergies, Drug crashes, stim patches and so forth.
Ryo, I know that in Shadowrun specific outweighs general, but in this case you have the Shooting Through Barriers procedure, which clearly lays out what unresisted damage is in the case of barriers: the damage after the resistance test. If the barrier takes the hit first, the gamemaster rolls
Structure + Armor to resist the damage, and the structure
takes any unresisted damage.
So when the Penetrating Weapons section comes along, which is talking about Shooting Through Barriers with specific weapon types, why would I believe that suddenly the authors are using a different definition for unresisted damage then the one they established two sections & one page ago?
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@DMK
Not that I'm fond of the current rules (and I'm also AFB), but isn't your interpretation suggesting that using a penetrating weapon deals less damage to both the barrier (just a single point) and the target behind it (whatever passed barrier's resistance but further reduced by 1)?
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While you're doing less damage to the barrier, you are still doing more damage to the target with a Penetrating Weapon.. The key portion is this paragraph from the Shooting Through Barriers rule:
If the barrier takes the hit first, the gamemaster rolls
Structure + Armor to resist the damage, and the structure
takes any unresisted damage. If the Structure rating
is exceeded by the damage it suffers, any remaining
damage is transferred to the target behind the barrier.
So, the Barrier soaks up all the unresisted damage until it exceeds the Structure Rating. So with Ballistic Glass, say, the glass would soak up four damage before any transmits to the target.
With the Penetrating Weapons rule, the Barrier only takes one box of the unresisted damage, not all of it up to Structure Rating. So the target ends up taking more of the damage.
Which makes sense. If you shoot a bullet through glass, it leaves a small hole (and spiderwebs.) That's a penetrating weapon. If you try to hit someone behind glass with a baseball bat, you're going to be doing less damage to whoever's standing there. :P
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That was the interpretation I was considering after I've posted.
Logical and simple. Under my understanding this is RAW; even if someone proves otherwise, I'd be inclined to use this.
Thanks!
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Well, it makes sense. I don't know if it's RAW or not, but sounds good (and also can appear to be the intended way of handling the situation). Damage is resisted normally with Structure+Armor, but a single bullet can't damage Structure too much, so target behind the cover will take (Modified DV - resistance roll hits - 1) from SS/SA. Thus dataterm will provide at least about 4 boxes of damage reduction.
As for me, I think that's not enough (I believe defender behind full cover must be able to roll Rea+Int as well), but that's certainly better than flat -1 damage reduction .
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DMK
That's a really neat interpretation, thanks for putting it forth. I'll be using this in my game from now on.
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I still think there's some definite room for houserules with Full Cover though. The Blind Fire modifier doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because when you combine it with the "Defender is Unaware of the Attack:" caveat, it's still way too easy to hit somebody.
Myself, I'd rule that when shooting at someone who's behind full cover, your net hits don't add to DV. I don't think net hits & Barriers work terribly well together anyways. So you're better with a gun... how does that map to getting through a kevlar wall? If it's that you identify a weak spot due to skill, doesn't that increase the chance you're going to miss entirely because you're aiming at the weak spot and not where you think your target is standing/sitting/whatever?
The way I'd do it is this: if the Defender is behind full cover, the Attacker rolls as normal, with the Blind Fire penalty. Net hits do not apply to DV. Either your gear can cut through the wall or it can't. Then roll a dice pool of your Hits on the Attack test vs. the Defender's Edge. If your skill at determining where the Defender would be beats the Defender's luck, congrats! You've managed to hit a guy you can't see through a wall. I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.
Complicated, I know. Probably has some bugs in it I haven't found yet. But it's my first pass.
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Speed 》Realism
Shot a target that is fully behind furniture:
Resolve the attack with blind fire modifier opposed by 4 dice.
Target resist modified DV-1 with body + modified Armor rating + 10 dice from furniture.
Done.
Shot target that spend simple action to Take Good Cover behind furniture;
Resolve attack with no negative modifiers and target get a positive modifier to his defense of 4 dice from his Take Cover action.
Tie goes to attacker but in that case DV is reduced by one and target resist with 10 extra dice.
If attacker get at least one net hit then target take modified DV that is not reduced by one and don't get 10 extra soak dice.
Done.
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I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.
That can eventually result in 0+net hits, and thus there will never be a zero (if attacker has won the Opposed Test) :) But I assume you meant adding net hits from Opposed Test only if base DV wasn't completely stopped by cover.
I would prefer following houserule. Attacker rolls Weapon Skill+Intuition-6 (an idea from SR4A; wiz 9-Agi cyberlimbs can't help you if you're "blind"), defender rolls Rea+Int+4. Other rules applied as in rulebook.
Target resist modified DV-1 with body + modified Armor rating + 10 dice from furniture.
BTW it possibly contradicts example Shooting Through A Barrier from p. 198.
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BTW it possibly contradicts example Shooting Through A Barrier from p. 198.
Both* examples contradicts the rules they are trying to clarify so i would not spend to much attention to them to be honest ;)
(* In "Damaging a Barrier" Wombat use full auto but still only cause 1 box of damage while Penetration Weapons state When multiple rounds are fired at a barrier, the damage increases to 2 boxes for 3 bullets, 3 boxes for six bullets, and 4 boxes for 10 bullets.)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI
This is why the Penetration Weapons rule exists. Walls really do not do much at all to stop bullets, especially on larger caliber rounds.
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Ryo
I'd argue that the rules for penetrating weapons are too overly simplified, however, because firing a round through a material, almost regardless of what it is (even something as brittle as glass), has the potential to damage and/or alter the trajectory of the projectile.
One of the things impressed upon us over and over again at Sniper School was that you never shoot through something unless you absolutely have to, and we were using .338 caliber rounds, a significantly heavier round that pretty much any handgun load.
Sure, a .45ACP will punch through most residential material, but it's not even nearly guaranteed to do so without the penetration a) reducing ballistic performance (typically through some of the projectile's kinetic energy being lost), and b) impacting the projectile somehow (even a small impact on trajectory can cause the projectile to go wide, or to cause it to fragment).
My point is this; a simple -1 DV reduction for firing a single round through ANYTHING at all (up to and including Security Doors, Armored Glass, Brick, Plastcrete, Concrete, and even metal beams) is just not representative of the effect I'd like to see this action incur.
As such, while RAW certainly is confusing, I'll stick with the below and (somewhat) disregard the Penetrating Weapons rules.
In the case of Penetrating Weapons, the Barrier still rolls Structure + Armor (modified by AP) to resist the DV of of the attack. However, the Barrier Structure only takes 1 DV (+1 for every multiple of 3 bullets fired through the barrier) regardless of the result of the resistance roll, but the resistance roll does modify the DV of the attack accordingly. If the DV of the attack after the resistance roll exceeds the barrier's AV, the attack passes through the structure and affects the target (if the attack hit, of course) with the modified DV.
Assuming an Ares Alpha with APDS ammunition and 4 net hits on the attack (15P -6 AP) firing a single round, this actually works out pretty well. Using mathematical averages and rounding: http://anydice.com/program/4479
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-6); 1 die to resist, 0.33 hits on average, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-6); 2 dice to resist, 0.67 hits on average, 15-1=13, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-6); 4 dice to resist, 1.33 hits on average, 15-1=13, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-6); 8 dice to resist, 2.67 hits on average, 15-3=12, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 11P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-6); 14 dice to resist, 4.67 hits on average, 15-5=10, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 9P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-6); 20 dice to resist, 6.67 hits on average,15-7=8, which is less than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 24 dice to resist, 8 hits on average, 15-8=7, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 10.67 hits on average, 15-11=4, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
This makes it all the more difficult to successfully fire through materials like brick and plastcrete (what I'd consider common building materials), and tougher materials like concrete, metal beams, reinforced concrete, and blast bunkers becomes nearly impervious to small-arms fire. This also substantially increases the value of good cover, which I find is a very desirable outcome for tactical purposes. No longer is hiding behind cover a terrible (TM) idea, but it might stop you from getting killed on a regular basis. Of course, what applies to the player applies to the NPCs :)
Now, the above was mathematical averages; if we do the same with the Buying Hits rule (which I would personally use), it looks like this:
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-6); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-6); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-6); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 15-1=14, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-6); 8 dice to resist, 2 hits, 15-2=13, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 12P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-6); 14 dice to resist, 3 hits, 15-3=12, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 11P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-6); 20 dice to resist, 5 hits,15-5=10, which is equal to AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 26 dice to resist, 6 hits, 15-6=9, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 8 hits, 15-8=7, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Not only does this positively affect the value of good cover, it also dramatically increases the effectiveness of dedicated AV weapons like heavy sniper rifles and assault cannons.
Assuming the Barret M122 from R&G firing APDS rounds with 4 net hits (18P, -10 AP), the table looks like this:
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-10); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-10); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-10); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-10); 6 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-10); 10 dice to resist, 2 hits, 18-2=16, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 15P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-10); 16 dice to resist, 4 hits,18-4=14, which is greater than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-10); 22 dice to resist, 5 hits, 18-5=13, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-10); 28 dice to resist, 6 hits, 18-6=12, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Add in APDS special properties like the Bulls-Eye Double-Tap/Burst, which the Barret is capable of, and you can potentially inflict 14P+net hits -(6*3)+4=-22AP shots, potentially completely negating even Armored and/or Reinforced materials with this kind of specialized weapon. To my mind, this is far more "realistic" than simply "the bullet passes through the material, subtract 1 from the DV" rule as it seems RAW indicates should be used. If you do use this rule, it means that even a single hit on the attack (14+1=15P, -10 AP) with a Barret M122 will penetrate Armored/Reinforced Material with only a single point of reduction in DV; that's blindly firing a round through reinforced concrete, and still doing upwards of 93% damage to your target.
TL;DR
Full cover doesn't have to be screwed, if you don't want it to as a GM...
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I still think there's some definite room for houserules with Full Cover though. The Blind Fire modifier doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because when you combine it with the "Defender is Unaware of the Attack:" caveat, it's still way too easy to hit somebody.
Myself, I'd rule that when shooting at someone who's behind full cover, your net hits don't add to DV. I don't think net hits & Barriers work terribly well together anyways. So you're better with a gun... how does that map to getting through a kevlar wall? If it's that you identify a weak spot due to skill, doesn't that increase the chance you're going to miss entirely because you're aiming at the weak spot and not where you think your target is standing/sitting/whatever?
The way I'd do it is this: if the Defender is behind full cover, the Attacker rolls as normal, with the Blind Fire penalty. Net hits do not apply to DV. Either your gear can cut through the wall or it can't. Then roll a dice pool of your Hits on the Attack test vs. the Defender's Edge. If your skill at determining where the Defender would be beats the Defender's luck, congrats! You've managed to hit a guy you can't see through a wall. I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.
Complicated, I know. Probably has some bugs in it I haven't found yet. But it's my first pass.
The blind fire rules are just bad, I mean really bad.
The rule should be if you move enough behind cover that you become completely unaware of the person shooting at you that unless they have some method of targeting your approximate location they just miss, its not blind fire -6 dice its shooting wildly. On the other hand if you are behind full cover but you still have a general idea where the shooter is, just like they have a general idea where you are they are at -6 to shoot you and you receive your full dodge pool+ cover. I'd assume with a combination of a quick peeks, periscopes, tac nets, hacked cameras people are usually at the general idea where the other guy is stage once a fight has started.
For your house rule, I'd probably change that to a edge vs edge test. Shooting blindly vs dodging blindly should be a luck vs luck not a skill vs luck test IMO.
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Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 10.67 hits on average, 15-11=4, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
In these cases, I wouldn't even have the structure take 1 DV. Otherwise you could wear down a bunker with a pistol by simply shooting at it 16 times. If the DV does not exceed the modified armor, then the attack is completely shrugged off by the barrier.
For your house rule, I'd probably change that to a edge vs edge test. Shooting blindly vs dodging blindly should be a luck vs luck not a skill vs luck test IMO.
I'd probably run it more like this:
1. The shooter must pick the 1m wide location he believes the target to be behind. If you are taking cover behind a wall that is 5m long, then he has a 1 in 5 chance of guessing right. If an NPC is shooting at a PC, the GM can roll using the NPC's Intuition + Wisdom (or Logic if the GM feels that would be more appropriate) with a threshold of the width of the barrier-1, so in our example of the 5m long wall, the threshold would be 4. If it is obvious where the target is (he is popping out one side to shoot before ducking back behind the barrier, the GM can skip the roll.
2. The shooter gets a regular attack at -6 per the rules.
3. The defender gets to defend with only his Intuition. He's aware of the general direction of an impending attack, but he can't really see where the attacker is aiming before he shoots, negating the split second bobbing and weaving that is described by the reaction component. However, he can use experience and gut feelings to keep low or stand sideways to reduce his profile, etc and try to predict where the attacker might try to shoot.
4. If the hit is successful and the modified DV exceeds the Modified AV of the barrier, the barrier gets a damage resist test that reduces the DV of the attack. If the remaining DV of the attack is 0 or less, it is stopped and the structure takes no damage.
5. Depending on the type of weapon:
a. If it is a penetrating weapon: If the remaining DV from step 4 is 1 or more, then the barrier takes 1, 2, 3, or 4 DV to it's condition monitor (up to the remaining DV of the attack) per the rules in the book (further reducing the remaining DV) before the remaining DV is passed through to the target. If the remaining DV is 0 or less after the barrier has taken its damage, the attack is effectively stopped.
b. If it is not a penetrating weapon, apply the remaining DV from step 4 to the barrier's condition monitor, reducing the DV for each point applied in this fashion. If the structure is exceeded, that portion of the barrier is destroyed and any remaining DV is applied to the target. Otherwise, the attack is stopped.
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...
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 24 dice to resist, 8 hits on average, 15-8=7, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
...
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-10); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-10); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-10); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-10); 6 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-10); 10 dice to resist, 2 hits, 18-2=16, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 15P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-10); 16 dice to resist, 4 hits,18-4=14, which is greater than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-10); 22 dice to resist, 5 hits, 18-5=13, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-10); 28 dice to resist, 6 hits, 18-6=12, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
...
(Italy,Bold is mine)
There seem to be some copy&paste mishaps. e.g.AV12-10 = 2 and so on...
The APDS round fired from a sniper rifle is likely to pass through
'Heavy Structural Material 12 20
Example: concrete, metal beam'
Other point: I would not consider the 'buying hits'-rule for barriers because barriers have nothing to gain from shortcutting tests, because they are not player characters. I think this rule should be used in cases like:
Ok you want to cut short a test? Do it, you will succeed, but live with reduced hits.