Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Dead Monky on <12-08-10/1534:38>
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In my group our rigger is a technomancer and while it doesn't cause any problems most of the time, we've been having an on again/off again debate for some time over how exactly ECCM, as complex form, would work when applied to multiple drones. On one hand, there's the view that the techno would simply run multiple versions of the same complex form, one for each drone he has subscribed to his bionode. Another view is that the techno could only maintain one ECCM complex form at a time and would have to rely on the sprites residing in the drones, or even ECCM programs, to protect the others. Yet another view (actually a derivation of the second) is that the techno can only support ECCM in one drone per ECCM complex form purchased. And then there's the view (a derivation of the first) that while the techno can only support ECCM in one drone, he can simply thread (I think that's what it's called) more ECCM complex forms and run those in the other drones, and deal with the fading.
What's everyone think?
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Oh, if anyone's wondering, I've been ruling things according to view number 4 (my view.)
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Hmm... from what I understand, 'mancers can have an unlimited number of Complex forms running at any given time without affecting their Response. Threading a form increases it's rating (like a mage overcasting a spell).
That being said, if he sends the complex forms out to run on the drones (without "jumping in"), then they're treated as normal programs that can affect the Response rating of the specific drone.
I'd probably say he could keep as many going as he wants, but if he Threads them, then he has to sustain them, so he'd take a -2 dice pool modifier for each one being sustained. But if they aren't Threaded, I see no reason to penalize him. In this case, 'mancers differ from magi; the Complex Forms can "live" on their own without direction from the 'mancer, while spells must always be tended to by magi.
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Hmm. Sounds good. I've heard the same arguments and was starting to lean in that direction. I may have to change things up when he get back together again. And I like the idea of it acting like a program and effecting Response if he isn't actively jumped in. Makes sense to me.
Honestly, this has only come up once in actual play. The techno usually just has sprites run his drones for him and just sort of jumps around monitoring them and reissuing orders as the need arises.
EDIT
Reworked my post a little after some thinking.
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Since the ECCM has to run on the drone for the drone to benefit, not on the 'mancer (see quote at bottom).
Therefore, I would argue that he needs to install the ECCM program (not a complex form) on each drone and run it off the drone's system. Just like a rigger would have to. His ECCM Complex Form only runs on his bionode (you can't ask a computer to take over running a complex form, after all), providing the techno his own personal protection. Even if he were subscribed to the node, the ECCM is still running on the bionode, protecting said bionode, not the node to which he is currently subscribed.
Same goes for a rigger, running ECCM on your commlink, even if you're subscribed to a drone, doesn't offer any protection to that drone. The program has to be loaded and running on the device to be protected.
This is the most realistic interpretation of ECCM, ECCM is reactive, boosting the signal and filtering the noise as the jamming occurs. Therefore, the impacted node would lose signal and disconnect from the node on which the ECCM was actually running before a theoretical net-centric ECCM would compensate.
If you prefer a more mancer-friendly perspective, FastJack's method seems like a pretty reasonable solution.
Electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) filter out jamming signals that attempt to disrupt a wireless connection, An ECCM program adds its rating to the Signal rating of the device on which it is running when defending against jamming (see p. 246)
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Hmm. Now we're back to square one I guess.
And honestly, I'm looking for the solution that requires the least bookkeeping and creates the fewest headaches.
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Then go with FastJack's, it's simple enough, it works well enough, and has the least book keeping.
Of course, the RAW I came out with is also pretty darned simple, it just means writing down an ECCM score for each of his drones, then when it's hit, he looks at Signal, adds ECCM, and has his answer. And buying an ECCM prog for each drone, but that's a few dice rolls (or, for simplicity, a hand-wave) and some nuyen out of his pocket.
Unless all his drones have the same Signal rating, he has to look it up and add his ECCM anyways, so it really isn't much more book keeping to go by the RAW. Either method, you still have to track it as a program running on the drone (at least, when the techno isn't there). By the method I laid out, it always counts, by FastJack's method, you have to add / subtract a program and redetermine response every time he jumps into a new drone.
Both have pros and cons from a minimal book-keeping standpoint, and I hope I laid them all out. I lean a little towards my interpretation of the RAW over FastJack's method, but then again, I'm me, of course I'm going to think my idea is better.
Also, I'm sure that this isn't an exhaustive list of pros and cons, so people, please, pile on the ideas and help out a poor Dead Monky speed up his game!
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Or just help me come to a decision that will keep me from getting bitched at. :D
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Aw, Monky... No one's going to bitch at ya.
Replace the gunpowder in your grenades with baby powder, maybe...
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IMO it's like Chaemera said, every single device has to run its own ECCM, except for the Jumped In Drone (in which the TM is jumped in), because it is one unit with the Bio Node.
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RAW, Complex forms cant run on anything but the TM persona. You need a separate program for each drone (including a jumped-in one, since your icon don't merge with the node of the drone or anything like that - its just a subscription).
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@The Laughing One
Not at all. ;)
A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative — the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit.
Without this I would agree with you. ;D
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But since the monkey is out of the box... a little OTQ:
Can a technomancers bio-node be a central part in a cluster node?
If yes (Can a TM build a cluster with another Resonance Being?), and if not, why exactly not (please with Source Quote)?
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The logic I was using in the way I was handling it was that since the subscribed drones were linked to the techno's bionode he could maintain a complex form on the drone through the signal linking them together. I don't remember reading anything about technos only being able to support them on their own bionode.
Aw, Monky... No one's going to bitch at ya.
Not here maybe.
Replace the gunpowder in your grenades with baby powder, maybe...
Now what would be the fun in that?
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@The Laughing One
Not at all. ;)
A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative — the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit.
Without this I would agree with you. ;D
If you assume that "treated as a single unit" means that they are suddenly a single node (not that there's anything in the rules to suggest this, but it's the assumption behind the idea that a complex form running on a bionode suddenly is running on a drone just cause the 'mancer is jumped in), then would programs running on the rigger's node be limited by the system (pilot) rating of the drone? And if so, how many programs are running on the "combined" rigger/drone node?
If you cannot answer all of these questions (and more) using RAW, then no, you shouldn't read the sentence that explains how initiative of a jumped-in drone works to infer how EVERYTHING about a jumped-in drone works.
Read that sentence again, it translates to "For initiative, the rigger and drone are treated as one unit". They don't suddenly share a single damage track. Programs running on the rigger's node are still running on the rigger's node (nothing says they move). You are hanging your hat on a single sentence that says nothing about anything... except initiative.
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Here's my thought. Complex forms work in many ways like programs but they are NOT Technomancer only programs. You can't copy a CF onto a node. You can't download a CF etc. The only places they exist are in the minds of Resonant beings. However, the bionode isn't (necessarily) the same thing as the location of the Technomancer in the Matrix.
So a sprite with EECM inhabiting a drone could use its ability to overcome jamming. A jumped in technomancer is "in" the drone in the same way they're "in" a node when they run complex forms in the Matrix. So yes, under those conditions they could use ECCM. The problem, of course, is that if the drone is being jammed already then there is no way to establish a connection to jump in. Now this is kind of a tricky situation and the following applies equally to Technomancers and people using ECCM programs.
Assuming the drone and the commlink controlling it are within mutual signal range, a jammer attack will probably effect both of them. In those situations the commlink has to overcome the jamming with its own ECCM first. ECCM is more than just boosting the signal. If that was all it was then sat links would solve all your jamming problems. Instead it involves "Complex Radio Frequency Stuff". Once your commlink has overcome a particular jammer it knows what combination of CRFS is the jammer's weak spot. At that point you can try to send the same information blind to the drone (ie make another roll). If that works then the link is reestablished but you're effectively running two copies of ECCM in the commlink. One for the link and one for the subscribed drone.
If, on the other hand, the jammer is not in range of the commlink then it simply won't have access to the appropriate pool of data with which to do CRFS. At that point you're out of luck unless the drone has its own ECCM in some form.
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Now I wish I had my Principles of Communications (wireless EM communications methodologies) and Transmission systems texts here at home...
While I can buy into your approach as a playable way to handle it, Nomad, the key problem (only from a RAW perspective) is that the program has be bu running (ie, taking up a "program" slot) on the specific node (physical hardware "node", not software "persona" location) it is intended to defend.
And this does fit with how most ECCM systems work (rapid frequency shift / modulation methodology changes, and a pile of crap I can't remember off the top of my head, I don't work a lot of wireless systems, mostly control systems over fiber-optic, AC & serial comms), the program needs to match the hardware / software of the system it's defending (most modern ECCM systems are custom-built to the application, even).
I don't see as how the drone could take advantage of the data fed it by the ECCM program running on the commlink without it's own ECCM program to translate the instructions (you can't expect me to read a .doc on a computer that doesn't have a program that understands .doc, or print without drivers, even if the printer is there). I suppose the suggestion is that you're transmitting the instructions via the second instance of the program running on the commlink, but it feels like a stretch for me personally. Ah well, the beauty of "to each, their own".
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My thought on that is that ECCM is a generic-ish program working with generic-ish hardware. The presupposition is that most wirelss matrix systems have besically the same range of tricks that they can use to overcome jamming. It takes garbage in (jammer garbage) and spits garbage out (counter-jamming instructions). What you're doing when running both programs is handing it two different input streams and it spits out two output streams. What you're doing in between is essentially spoofing the second input stream by using the first one twice. Rules wise its similar to using Tac-net in server mode. That's really the only iffy, pulling something out of my ass, part of this.
See Unwired sidebar pg 109 for more on server side programs. Turns out you CAN explicitly run a program on your commlink for a subscribed user (ie drone).
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Looking over pg. 109, it seems like a little bit of a stretch to apply it to ECCM, being as ECCM is such a special case (it specifically states in the rules for the program, page 233 of SR4A that it only affects the node running it). That being said, the phraseology is vague enough that it could be inferred to be limited to multiple personas, logged into the same node, using the server-side program on that node (the impression I've gotten from other mentions of this type of operation). Example: we can all take advantage of the Data Search program on this forum (known as the "search" button), but it's functionality is limited to searching this forum, I cannot use it to search my computer.
Extend this to Google, which is the ultimate server-side data search program. I'd say probably rating 5 or 6. But, it still can't search my computer for me.
It really is a matter of interpretation, personally, I think it needs to run on the node it's supposed to protect. There are too many variables in jamming & counter-jamming for it to make sense to me for it to work any other way. Not to mention, cheese-factor 5 with the technomancer, you've given him un-impeachable drones. Slave them to his commlink, boot up a threaded, Rating 8 ECCM, server-side on the Techno. Now, infinite drones are protected, completely, from all matrix counter measures available (have to hack the techno, since they're slaved. Or, overcome Rating + 8 on your ECM). Provided the opposing team doesn't also have a techno. (Since the drones are slaved, they forward all access attempts to the "master" bio-node, which flashes "invalid node" to any non-techno)
At the end of the day, implications like that are the biggest reason I'd avoid this like the plague. Use server-side ECCM only if you want non-techno matrix support to be impotent against techno-controlled drones. Heck, with a good server-node, it's pretty absurd to try and deal with this regardless of the presence of a technomancer. For the price of a single ECCM program (and a server-commlink, which isn't too expensive), every drone I have can, without impediment, safely ignore all but the best of jammers (and if the ECCM is rating 5 and I upgrade my drones to Signal 5, I can ignore even the best).
Also remember, in ECM & ECCM there is no dice rolling (SR4A, pg. 329, Jammer), it's straight comparison and Jammers can get expensive.
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Well, yes and no. In the mundane example each drone protected with server side ECCM is one instance of the ECCM program running. Yes, you could build a commlink that supports the subscriptions and the programs but its pretty vulnerable to being crashed since its either running a ton of programs or is very lightly defended. When it crashes all the drones effectively crash with it since their ECCM shuts down. If you're jammer is in range, chances are your hacker is, too. Yes the technomancer would have an unassailable ECCM but they can do the same with tac-net. While the Techno can run any number of copies of his CF, he still can't maintain an unlimited number of drone subscriptions. And if your jammer is in range, your sniper probably is, too.
Now personally I'd think ECCM is better suited to being a hardware package than a software one. Since its a program, though, it seems as reasonable to run server side as tac-net, sniffer or any other program that reacts to outside input. No, Google can't scan your computer because you didn't give it permission to. . . except for the parts you did. Its very good at remember what you did search for in the past and prompting you. That's all stored on your side. If you run your own website you can give it permission to go a step farther and implement a mini-Google for searching your site.
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@Chaemera
The personal view on game balance is a good reason to use it like I said. Because it works only for one drone at a time (the jumped in one) and jamming isn't the killswitch. And my interpretation would work on both Matrix character types, a mundane rigger could also provide a ECCM for the one drone in which he/she is jumped in.
And if you think as GM oooh technomancers/riggers are bad-ass, kill the one drone physically and your problem is solved. ;D
The "one drone only" option is IMHO a fair solution. Otherwise the idea of rigging is a deathtrap itself.
Btw: The real master of disaster at ECCM is an AI with ECCM as Inherent Program... Welcome to unjammable drones! ;)
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some basic matrix terms (all from SR4A):
1. Persona - the persona run by a certain node, and contain the relevant attributes (system, firewall, etc.) the persona is not a virtual entity at all - its a collection of attributes from the node it run on. (pg. 223)
2. Icon - the icon is a virtual entity, actually a representation of the persona in the matrix. it can be anywhere the user connect to and at several places at the same time. (pg.224)
3. Complex forms are not a part of the living persona, with the exception of biofeedback filter. (pg. 239)
4. Regular programs loads into the persona (pg.223)
5. ECCM (pg. 233) add its rating to the signal rating on the device on which it is running. theres no such thing as having a program running on your icon - its running on your persona, which exist on your device only. (about running a program - pg 231)
5. Complex forms are not programs (pg. 239) - they are mental algorithms, and more like knowledge skills than programs.
conclusion - a rigger can load an ECCM program from his node into the drone's node and then run it from there - theres no limit on how much nodes you can load a specific program to. however, a technomancer cant "load" a complex form into the node because complex forms cant be "loaded" on anything, not even the living persona of the tenchomancer itself.
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@Chaemera
The personal view on game balance is a good reason to use it like I said. Because it works only for one drone at a time (the jumped in one) and jamming isn't the killswitch. And my interpretation would work on both Matrix character types, a mundane rigger could also provide a ECCM for the one drone in which he/she is jumped in.
And if you think as GM oooh technomancers/riggers are bad-ass, kill the one drone physically and your problem is solved. ;D
The "one drone only" option is IMHO a fair solution. Otherwise the idea of rigging is a deathtrap itself.
Btw: The real master of disaster at ECCM is an AI with ECCM as Inherent Program... Welcome to unjammable drones! ;)
The view on game balance is also a great reason to use the RAW, which is each drone needs to run it's own (whether loaded up from the rigger's 'link as Laughing One suggests, or purchased separately and loaded specifically on that drone).
As for them being "oooh so badass", my concern isn't that the drones are unstoppable, they're not, it's about making the party matrix support sit on the sidelines in a situation where he should be shining b/c the enemy techno has hard-locked him out of doing anything fun via Nomad's interpretation of Server-side ECCM (unless the party's matrix support is a techno, too). Sure, you can shoot them up, but isn't it more fun for the party if the party hacker has a chance to jam the signal (breaking the "slave-master" chain), hack the drone, and start taking down the enemies? That way, you have one more player engaged. You give them insta-ECCM as Nomad suggests, and short of hacking the master node. Depending on how the enemy does it, no easy feat. If it's Techno-Master, Player-Hacker, game over. If it's Techno-Techno, okay, fair fight (probably). Rigger-Hacker, again, fair fight.
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For the record, I never said that, you can't jamm a "jumped in drone", the only statement of mine was, that my interpretation of the single unit is that the rigger can use his/her skills and programs on the drones behalf.
And we speak about only one single drone of the whole network he/she can personal defend, and if it fails, even this connection will be jammed.
That has nothing to do with the different character types, because in this case the rules are the same for hackers and technomancers.
The other way without the exception of the "jumped in drone" would work, too. No question! And yes, you can say only the skill of the rigger will be used and the attribute is every time the attribute of the drone. And since Matrix Attributes are programs, it is RAW to say only the program of the drone can be used. But jamming or use of ECCM is no skill test.
IMHO it is only a matter of gaming taste. Would you like to give the rigger a chance to support the drone in which he/she sits or should it work without any chance (dice test) or player influence?
The Game Impact is in my eyes clear, every rigger will buy or code a ECCM program with Ergonomic & Optimization Options. So that the program can run at nearly every system.
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Additionally, equip their drones with Laser Link connections to avoid Wireless jamming as much as possible in the first place.
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