Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Yun-qi Feng on <12-07-10/2336:28>

Title: Magical Healing
Post by: Yun-qi Feng on <12-07-10/2336:28>

Our group has been looking for pricing on magical healing. Does anyone know of any listing of such services?

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: FastJack on <12-08-10/0110:32>

Quote from: Augmentation, p. 122

MedTech Providers	Typical Skills	Availability/Interval	Basic Care	Intensive Care	Services
Traditional Healer	2–4	4/12 hours	100¥ (Outpatient)	NA	a, sometimes k, l
Local General Practitioner	3–4	4/12 hours	100¥ (Outpatient)	NA	a, b
Street Clinic	2–4	4/12hours	100¥ (Outpatient)	NA	a, b
Public Hospital	2–4	6/12 hours	250¥	500¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, i
Bodyshop	2–5	4/12 hours	250¥	1,000¥	a, b, e
Private Hospital	4–6	8/1 day	500¥	1,000¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, i
Street Doc	1–6	6/12 hours	500¥	1,000¥	a, b, c, d, e
Corporate Hospital	4–7	16/1 day	1,000¥	1,000¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, g, i, j, k, l
Elite Clinics	5–6	16/2 days	1,000¥	2,000¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, g, k, l
Elite Shadow Clinics	6	20/1 day	2,000¥	4,000¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, g, k, l
Delta Clinics	6-7	24/1 week	5,000¥	10,000¥	a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, k, l

Service Guide
(a) General medical care.
(b) Basic hospitalization.
(c) Intensive care.
(d) Surgery and major trauma.
(e) Implantation (basic and alpha-grade cyberware/bioware).
(f) Implantation (beta-grade cyberware/bioware, cultured bioware, basic gene therapies, nanoware);
(g) Implantation (nanocybernetics, all genetech).
(h) Implantation (deltaware, experimental genetech and nanoware).
(i) Ambulance/emergency services.
(j) Armed emergency response.
(k) Magical healing.
(l) Long-term magical care.

For more detail, check out the book.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Chaemera on <12-08-10/0629:48>

Before anyone says "but magic should cost a lot more" consider, they have less overhead than a traditional medical practitioner (they go "ubba gubba", you get better). Add on the fact that they're in direct competition with said traditional medical practitioner. Sure, in some cases, they can do more than he can (though first aid is surprisingly effective with a skilled character or a good medkit). But, the more they charge, the fewer people can afford them.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Doc Chaos on <12-08-10/1019:09>

That argument always comes down to; do you view it more with RAW or more with a FLUFF perspective. Yeah, by fluff they probably should charge more, since massive healing in a row puts a strain on the mage (and the patient gets better REALLY fast), but by RAW its just quick and easy.

And since most players will want to get back into the action rather quick and don't really like playing their characters in a hospital bed... fragg it, get "cheap" magical healing and back at them, tiger!

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: inca1980 on <12-08-10/1229:47>

But by fluff it also makes sense.  The only reason that oppressed and underadvantaged groups managed to get any piece of the pie at all in SR world is because they had magic and magic doesn't discriminate.  Some of the most magically active groups are probably some of the groups with the least resources so it makes sense that if you're bleeding to death somewhere deep in the barrens, then the local gang would take you to the local street healer and maybe just maybe that healer actually is awakened.  Why doesn't that healer just go work for a corporate hospital?  Because maybe she has an attachment to her community or culture or maybe she doesn't have a SIN or even has a criminal SIN.  So it makes sense that there would be no magic at a public hospital because it would quickly get picked up by a better paying corporate hospital and thus the value of a magic healer with a valid SIN is really high and too expensive for most.  But when you're dealing in the SINless world it all changes.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Kot on <12-08-10/1304:49>

As for Shamans, most of them follow paths coming from generations of wise men and women, spititual healers, medicine men, priests, and such. They have a huge tradition of service and healing, both physical and mental. Even if most of them won't do it for free, they'll at least name a price. There are also a lot of minor talent healers, who do only that, or have just a few minor tricks aside healing. And even Hermetics tend to learn healing spells. So odds are, that you'll most likely find an awakened healer when you need one. The only problem is his skill and the price he will dictate.
And i see many opportunities for even wagemages and wageshamans. As long as they're fit and loyal, the Corp will probably look the other way when he takes some 'healing job' on the side.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: inca1980 on <12-08-10/1316:17>

I don't know man, Corp's really love contracts.....i mean look at how athletes now-a-days are handled.  You are often times contractually obligated to not be able to play little pick-up games here and there....one because you belong to the team that pays you, and two, you could get injured.  It would be a liability for corporations to allow their precious precious healers/mages to practice on the side and potentially get injured.  I'm sure most contracts with corporations work like that....unless maybe you're ultra-powerful or rich and you can set your own terms.  In SR world, corporations literally own you....that's why shadowrunners exist, cuz they don't wanna be owned.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Kot on <12-08-10/1325:52>

Well, i'd say they would like them to have contacts in the biz, and be happier, than your average wagemage. And if they don't overdo it, and come back to work dazed from the healing spells they fling here and there, it's still okay. The corps really love to turn things like that to their advantage - they don't pay the mage more, but he earns more and is happier, thus more productive. And builds up usefull contacts, that the corp can exploit - because they already know he's doing healing on the side, even if he shouldn't.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: inca1980 on <12-08-10/1352:18>

Maybe Evo and Horizon might take that philosophy.   It would really depend on the corp.  I don't like to give my corp citizens much leeway when I GM because then it takes away the incentives to Shadowrun.  Otherwise my team would just join a corp and then they'd wanna do adventures as a corp. sec. 

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Mäx on <12-08-10/1442:00>

Quote from: inca1980 on <12-08-10/1352:18>

Maybe Evo and Horizon might take that philosophy.   It would really depend on the corp.  I don't like to give my corp citizens much leeway when I GM because then it takes away the incentives to Shadowrun.  Otherwise my team would just join a corp and then they'd wanna do adventures as a corp. sec. 

Well the corp sec guys won't have much leeway, thei're far below the magicians in corporate totem pole after all.
Hell, i see Horizon heavily succesting that all of their magicians capable of casting healing spells do community outreach work at free hospital for few houers every week/month.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Chaemera on <12-08-10/1803:43>

From a fluff + RAW perspective, magicians have to compete with the average street doc with a bit of training and a decent med-kit. Healing magically and applying first aid takes exactly as much time. Stun damage takes an hours rest (call it your lunch break). Even in most of the stories, it only takes an hours relaxation for the mage to be ready to go after a serious fight.

SR4A Street Doc (page 291) has Logic 5, First Aid 4. A rating 6 MedKit is 600 nuyen, not too expensive for someone charging 100 nuyen per chummer (FastJack's table).
That means a DP of 15, average 5 hits for 3 Stun or Physical healed in a matter of 3 rounds (first aid rules on 252 - 253).

RC Paramed Shaman (page 142) Magic 5, Spellcasting 4, Willpower 5, Charisma 5.
Magical Healing DP: 9, for an average of 3 hits, 3 Physical healed. And it takes 3 rounds (Duration rules, pg. 203, SR4A)
From the rules for the Heal spell (SR4A, pg. 208), that's 1S for her drain. Drain Resist DP of 10, that's 3 hits (again) or 0S actual drain. She can keep doing this all day, baby.

So from a RAW perspective, it's obvious that the overhead is, if anything, lower for the mage than the mundane. Thus, prices can go down for the mage. Heck, the fluff of powerful magic being draining is also handled by virtue of not taking any drain (on average), this isn't powerful magic for even a modest magician.

The fluff issues, I and a slew of others have already explained. Mages are often from poor-sympathetic groups. More importantly, they have to make money, we've already seen that for short-term care, they are no faster than a street doc. They both get you patched up in an unbelievable 9 seconds. So really, how could a mage afford to charge more than an equally skilled street doc for the same service, at the same speed, for the same quality, just with less overhead, fewer cleanliness requirements, etc?

They gotta compete, their prices are gonna be competitive, they can't offer much else (strictly speaking to healing itself, atm).

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Nomad Zophiel on <12-08-10/2001:08>

There's actually a bit about unlicensed magical healing in Vice.

Short form:
A licensed magical healer has more licensing requirements than a doctor. If they work in a hospital they make more per hour that they're actively healing but take fewer patients. More accurately, all the mages on staff are collectively part of the care provided to all the patients, so magic is already included in the price and healing rates.

An unlicensed healing mage who's still part of the SIN system has to worry about fines, liability, bribing cops etc. So, if anything, they're going to be more expensive than a licensed one. More importantly is that there's no way to know for sure that you're dealing with a genuine mage casting a genuine healing spell unless you're a mage yourself. So you may have to go through four or five "tinglers" over several days to come up with one that actually heals you. Again, this is factored into cost and healing times.

An unlicensed, SINless healing mage has all of the problems of the SINed mage plus he can't even establish a legitimate front. Bribes go up and the chance of disappearing into a corporate brainwashing facility employee training and happiness enhancement program increase. They still have the same cost of living to cover and fewer clients to do it with. Since most of their customers will also be SINless or criminals, the chances for fraud also increase, so you'll go through more fakes to find one good magical healer.

Edit: As a small side note, I'd probably allow a single healing spell of Force=skill of the hospital on anything with a (k) and either of the optional mystic healing rules.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Chaemera on <12-08-10/2051:08>

Quote from: Nomad Zophiel on <12-08-10/2001:08>

An unlicensed healing mage who's still part of the SIN system has to worry about fines, liability, bribing cops etc. So, if anything, they're going to be more expensive than a licensed one. More importantly is that there's no way to know for sure that you're dealing with a genuine mage casting a genuine healing spell unless you're a mage yourself. So you may have to go through four or five "tinglers" over several days to come up with one that actually heals you. Again, this is factored into cost and healing times.

An unlicensed, SINless healing mage has all of the problems of the SINed mage plus he can't even establish a legitimate front. Bribes go up and the chance of disappearing into a corporate brainwashing facility employee training and happiness enhancement program increase. They still have the same cost of living to cover and fewer clients to do it with. Since most of their customers will also be SINless or criminals, the chances for fraud also increase, so you'll go through more fakes to find one good magical healer.

So does an unlicensed SIN/SINless street doc. Not only do they have the fact that their practice is illegal, owning most medical equipment (short of a medkit) requires a license (think drugs and surgical tools). I will admit, due to the generic nature of "tools" and "facilities", this portion isn't well represented in the RAW.

All of the arguments you've made apply just as well to the street doc as the street wizard. Think of the 8+ years of medical education involved, the highly controlled substances and tools used.

People tend to overplay the "magic is special" card. Trying to carry on any highly skilled trade in the shadows is as difficult, and as licensed, as a magical equivalent. The only real difference is the tools employed.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Nomad Zophiel on <12-09-10/0232:48>

Oh, I'm not arguing that Street Docs don't have the same problems. They may have less of an issue with fraud and more of an issue with low skill. My point was much more that the economy of magical healing is already modeled just fine in the chart in Arsenal. Barring serious injury (ie, just healing health boxes), assigning the skill level on the chart as a number of bonus hits to healing for non-intensive care at the list price works just fine for both mundane and magical healers. It might be worth adjusting if a PC only has a day or two to heal but in downtime its fine to figure the cost and benefit even out over the long term.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Yun-qi Feng on <12-09-10/2007:28>

Thanks for your insight everyone. We decided that the price would likely be determined by the nature of the mage (corp, gypsy, underground, or small business owner), and also the severity of the runners wounds. In this case, the individual was on deaths door step and the need necessitated a higher service fee. There was one thing that we thought limiting about the table and that is the assumption that there is no such magical healing for general and semi-private hospitals; that they felt only the upper eschelon of society would have access the magical healing. There could be volunteers or those who oppose working for corps who would work for smaller less elite hospitals. But on the flip side we could see that most likely the reason a runner would need such healing would be because they are not doing things within the law and therefore larger corps would monopolize the mages to deter such activity.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Kot on <12-10-10/0330:44>

I'd also take into account how 'hot' the patient is. If he's a SINner criminal currently wanted by the authorities (governmental, corporate, or street), the price would go up. Or the 'magic-doc' could sell the character out anyway.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Doc Chaos on <12-10-10/0402:30>

Ah, the old "do I realy trust my Doc enough to sedate me while he digs out that bullet out of my spleen" dilemma :)

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: FastJack on <12-10-10/0906:59>

It's hard to trust a guy that sells used 'ware... ;)

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Dead Monky on <12-10-10/1917:34>

Just make sure the rest of your team is there to keep an eye on him.  Or at least arrange to have a happy "accident" befall him if something goes awry.

Title: Re: Magical Healing
Post by: Kot on <12-11-10/1149:28>

Or just have one of the teammates stay. :)