Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: martinchaen on <05-09-14/1811:44>
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So, in a Play-By-Post I'm a part of the following occurred to "my character" in game, as he's reasonably inexperienced with magic (yeah, that's totally my excuse, the fact that I didn't think of this until now despite playing the game for 2 years has nothing to do with the matter!);
So, in this play by post, my character wondered: "Can one use a Simrig and a trode net to record ones experiences in the Astral?"
Let's first take a brief look at the rules for it (no, Xenon, I'm not really interested in a RAW debate, shush! :) ), shall we:
Simrig: This simsense recorder can record experience data (sensory and emotive) from you or whoever is wearing it. Simrig rigs are used to make most of the simsense chips sold on the market. You’ll need to have a working sim module (with the DNI interface) to make a recording.
In addition, the book has this to say about the Astral:
It is an emotionally charged photonegative of the physical world where only living things and things infused with mana are real and physical objects are mere intangible shadows.
However, it is very clear that technology and magic doesn't really mix, both from a lore perspective but also from the game mechanics. But this is one avenue I haven't really seen ANY mention of in the source material; while Astral Space is certainly a magical construct, the Simrig records as much what you "feel" emotionally as it does what you can "sense" through your eyes, nose, and fingers.
I've been thinking about this all day, and I'd really like to hear what others have to say about this from a theoretical perspective more so than a rules perspective; it's controversial enough by the rules, I'm just curious what people think MIT&T or the DIMR or the like might have come up with.
And if a Simrig doesn't do it, what other ways could someone record their journeys into the Astral, beyond noting them down with pen and paper when they return to their bodies?
My personal opinion only; the simrig can in fact record the experience, but it will at best be useless to anyone who cannot Assense, and they'd need a trode net and a hot-sim enabled link to experience the journey. I think it's a fascinating concept that deserves more exploration.
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Without digging through the rules (magic is not my strong suit), I'm inclined to say yes largely because it's cool and coolness trumps micromanaging. I would say that the actual specifics--how the aura looks precisely--would not translate, so someone else with Assensing could look not run the sim and make an Aura Reading roll, but he would be able to "ride" the emotional experience of the person who saw the aura initially. That actually sounds like a fun plot hook--a magical twist to Strange Days.
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Special effects are used in place of active magic in most simsense products for several important reasons. For one, mana spells and astral perception simply do not show up on simsense recordings at all. While physical spells do show up on a recording, they’re physically taxing to cast.
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On the other hand, magical illusions are sometimes cast to fool the actors, thus creating emotive responses to the (nonexistent, according to the recording) illusion. This trick is used to record the appropriate response to visual effects that will be added later, or to get an extra emotional edge in scenes where it really counts.
I would say you probably would still get the emotional feedback from someone perceiving, but the actual 'sensing' data doesn't seem to come across at all.
That said, a good computer whiz working with the projecting person probably could whip up the sensory equivalents to go with the emotional content the projector is experiencing
as for other devices, if anything comes close I would bet the Jewel of Memory probably could as it stores information/wisdom for the Greats (think Matrix of Leadership for Scalies :P ) and given their magically active lifestyle it might well contain astral impressions/information though I do not have anything to back that canon-wise.
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Thanks, Sendaz! That's a pretty old quote if it's from the Sprawl Survival Guide, but it's nice to know where the canon stands.
I think I might handwave some sort of plot prototype device type thing into my campaign. Like Kincaid, I think it's an intriguing potential R&D type thing.
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Yeah, with advancement in arcanotech, sooner or later there is bound to be some sort of bridge, though I suspect it will burn out, magically or mentally, a lot of test subjects along the way.
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Astral space isn't only about emotion - and a simrig can only record the "five senses" as far as sensory experience goes. So it would record how someone FELT about what they saw, but not what they saw. There's really no way to record the actual sensory experience, which is part of the whole magic/tech issue.
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I thought the Astral was just a bunch of bright colours and weird things like seeing a dragon in place of a man or a plane sized bird flapping lazily over the park so it would record all that fine? It wouldn't give you the knowledge that coloured aura X = Toxic shaman bwaap bwaapp bwaap but you would see a weird muddy, black aura and feel the fear of the mage.
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I thought the Astral was just a bunch of bright colours and weird things like seeing a dragon in place of a man or a plane sized bird flapping lazily over the park so it would record all that fine? It wouldn't give you the knowledge that coloured aura X = Toxic shaman bwaap bwaapp bwaap but you would see a weird muddy, black aura and feel the fear of the mage.
Hells no. Astral Perception is a completely seperate and distinct form of perception. It doesn't actually relate to visual perception at all, that's just part of how the user's brain typically interprets it (notably, the interpretation varies from person to person and based on their own sensory capacity - blind people interpret it in very different ways, for example).
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I see, sttill doesn't a simrig record your experiences? If so wouldn't it record whatever your experiencing e.g. a man can be made to experience giving birth, a human can be made to experience what its like to be a bird, a blind person can be made to experience sight and a normal can be made to experience an awakened's view of the Astral world? Its just that some of what they're experiencing would be noise. However if Mage A interprets their view of the astral world as a sight based experience couldn't they record that even if they're using a completely different sense. Kind of the differrence between AR and hot sim VR. In both cases your seeing the same world but whereas the person using gloves, goggles and earbuds can only get a small part of the whole they're still able to say "Yes I see the castle." they just can't smell the castle or taste it.
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I think a simrig is limited in how many senses it can record. Astral projection probably involves senses that simsense doesn't have the capacity to record. So while it would record your experiences, some of the data would be considered erroneous and automatically discarded, which would leave you with an incomplete recording.
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Even if a simrig was able to record an astral perception experience, it may be that to those without the ability it cannot be processed properly.
As the improper processing of any direct electrical stimulation information by the brain can cause serious side effects it would stand to reason that the input data be limited.
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Wait, where is it stated that a simrig only records the 5 senses, RHat? I haven't seen any reference to what it actually does beyond record "sensory and emotive" experience data, which is wonderfully vague.
And SlowDeck, that is a fairly narrow view of what the simrig can and cannot do, not to mention a contradictory statement; in the second half you're making the assumption that the simrig discards data, while in the first half you say that it wouldn't have the capacity to record it. See the difference? I liken the first part of your statement to taking a completely normal cellphone into a pitch black room and recording a video with it; it is unlikely to show anything at all because the electronics in it are unable to pick up any visual data (except the darkness, which is a form of data itself. The second part of your statement is more like saying that the aforementioned cell phone would simply discard data it doesn't recognize, but that implies that it CAN in fact see infrared, for example.
My stance on this topic is that of the quote Sendaz provided; the simrig from Sprawl Survival Guide, which is dated April 30th, 2063, is unable to record the data from experiences such as Astral Perception. However, I am NOT of the opinion that this holds true in 2075, as magical theory and technology has had an additional 12 years to mature. In 12 years, we went from Bakelite phones that were vehicle mounted (or draggable) to portable cell phones with vast processing power in nearly every westerners pocket. I'm confident that someone, somewhere has been working on a way to capture Astral Perception data, and that a prototype exists. It may not be canon, but it sounds reasonable enough for me, and I think it's a neat idea for a new experience for the runners.
The mundane viewer may not fully comprehend what he's experiencing, and he may suffer ill effects from the experience (if using Hot-Sim) as his mind tries to accommodate a reality for which it is woefully unprepared, but I wouldn't discard the concept simply because 10 year old tech in the canon wasn't capable of it.
Again, huge thanks to Sendaz for digging up that quote. Much appreciated.
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It's not really that contradictory. There's a difference between receiving the data and being able to record it.
Simsense probably also can't record some of the other more esoteric human senses, such as magnetoception. At most, I suspect it can only record a max of 18 of the 20 senses humans have in real life (and there's actually some evidence that suggests we have more than that). When you add on magic, you're probably talking about another five to ten senses added on top of the ones already known, but which are not as wide-spread in actual usage.
Plus, it's actually possible they don't know how to encode the information for simsense. I agree with you that it makes sense they have the capacity to obtain it with a simrig, but I suspect that sensing the astral world may use a set of... not certain the term... sensory "algorithms" not previously seen in the human brain that they're actually still trying to figure out how to be able to record the data and have it play back properly. Given the range of capacity to innately see the astral world, it is entirely possible that attempted simsense recordings of it have variable effectiveness that depends entirely upon the user. It's much more likely that attempted simsense recordings of astral space simply fail. As such, it's possible that they're not yet capable of producing simsense recordings of astral space simply because they're trying to figure out how it works means they're starting at ground zero all over again.
Note I may be wrong. I would not be surprised in the least if the upcoming magic supplement mentions simsense recordings and BTLs of astral space. I just don't think they'll do it for game balance reasons, and the above is the best attempt at an internal world explanation for why it's not yet possible.
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My stance on this topic is that of the quote Sendaz provided; the simrig from Sprawl Survival Guide, which is dated April 30th, 2063, is unable to record the data from experiences such as Astral Perception. However, I am NOT of the opinion that this holds true in 2075, as magical theory and technology has had an additional 12 years to mature. In 12 years, we went from Bakelite phones that were vehicle mounted (or draggable) to portable cell phones with vast processing power in nearly every westerners pocket. I'm confident that someone, somewhere has been working on a way to capture Astral Perception data, and that a prototype exists. It may not be canon, but it sounds reasonable enough for me, and I think it's a neat idea for a new experience for the runners.
And I see this thought as being exceedingly dangerous, on all different sorts of scales - in-game, metagame, yadda yadda. If someone in the SR world discovers a way for magic and the astral to be recorded by technology, you provide a stepping-stone for technology to access both, and then you will have, in a relatively short period of time, spells cast by a gizmo and mages cruising in the Matrix. Even the current methodology of 'technologically' sensing the strength of a background count in an area relies on a living thing actually doing the sensing, and providing data on it via the strength of its glowing. We can record the glowing - but not the direct sensory data.
Do it if you like in your game, but I'm fairly confident that it'll remain separate in most others - and definitely so in the canon.
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I'm not sure I agree with the slightly hyperbolic "stepping-stone" argument, Wyrm. To me, going from being able to detect something is a fairly long logistical leap from being able to manipulate it. A very hyperbolic reply would be that we can theoretically detect all sorts of cosmic phenomena today, but that doesn't mean we can interact with them in any viable way, and likely won't for a long, long time, nor does it mean that we really understand their effects.
A more practical real world example to my mind is the discovery of x-rays; attributed to a period of time between 1875 and 1895, it only took scientists/medical professionals a month or so to begin using this technology for medical purposes. The scientific community is still arguing about the effects radiation exposure from routine scans has on the human body, particularly where risk of cancer development is concerned.
But absolutely, I'm making no claim that what I'm proposing is canon, merely that it is possible. And, given that the last canonical source we have on the matter is over a decade old in-game and knowing the vast resources that are poured into arcanotech research, I really don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine that someone, somewhere has come up with a simrig-like device that allows the detection of astral phenomena through a magician's senses. As you say, the machine itself wouldn't be the sensor, the human body would be.
Thank you for your input, though, always good to hear what people think.
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This does seem vaguely related to the idea of BTL-chips supposedly containing the recordings of spirit-possessed subjects (Clutch of Dragons, pg 87-88). I can see the differences between recording astral space and recording a possessed person (?) but I can also imagine there being a demand for astral recordings among the mundane glitterati.
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Actually, it isn't possible; the designers at the very start stated, and it's been a part of the bedrock presumption ever since, that Tech cannot sense or interface with any sort of Mana-based magical phenomenon, whether spell, manifesting astral presence, or astral space. Once the magic starts creating physical events, then yes, tech can sense it and record it; but it cannot perceive or record perceptions of mana or the astral.
Right now, the argument for this is 'well, you see with your eyes, and it can record what you see, so if you see astral stuff, you can record astral stuff'. This is fundamentally wrong - because you do not see mana events with your eyes. You don't even sense them with your mind; you see them with, for want of a better term, with your soul. The tech can record your thoughts, your emotions, your physical responses, your chemical levels, and all your physical senses; it's tapped directly into your brain, after all, and thus the argument runs.
But that tech, despite being directly interfaced with a living person, is a dead part of them - its implantation has had an impact on their spiritual self (i.e. Essence), and weakened their link with the spiritual/mystic part of the universe. Because it is tech, even if you have a mind-blowing astral perception experience, and even though it will record your heightened neurotransmitter levels and emotional responses and everything else, the essential (pun intended) part of the experience is not something that the tech can tap into.
Which part of the tech goes into astral with the implanted mage when he leaves his body? Because that's the part of the tech that's needed in order to record mana-based magical events. But so far, they haven't been able to hook the tech into the soul ...
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Wyrm
A simrig need not be an implant, so your comment on Essence is just plain wrong; trodes, a commlink with a sim-module, and the simrig itself is apparently all that's needed in terms of tech in order to record one's emotive and sensory experience data. Also, I do believe I stated in my later post that I was speaking of Astral Perception, not Astral Projection, though I will argue that some part of the projecting magician's "soul", if that's what you want to call it, stays behind, seeing as how the in-game mechanics allow for perception tests to be taken at -6 modifier to notice something that happens to one's body. I'd also point you to this quote from Arsenal regarding manatech:
As the Sixth World advances, more and more engineers and magicians have conspired to combine magic and technology in new ways. The results of these collaborations have been dubbed manatech. Recent breakthroughs have focused the majority of research on the products of Awakened critters and enchanting.
The description of the background count measuring device you mentioned earlier (referred to as an Ambient Magical Potentiometer, by the way), states pretty clearly that the tech is "currently in it's infancy", and that the technology is both "expensive and fragile, but it does work". This kind of information coupled with what we know about experiments such as Project Imago is a clear indication to me that someone, somewhere could be, and likely is, working on any number of new technologies we have yet to even dream of, and that's quite enough for me in this case.
Thanks again, though.
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Let's also not forget Arthur C. Clarke's third "law": Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Food for thought...
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I would say that everything you're talking about exactly punctuates my statement. The only thing outside the bounds (as it were) is Project Imago, but that's one of those woeful abortions created by Carl Sargent. (Note: he's also who came out with the London Sourcebook, aka 'the game's power increases with each new sourcebook' and ''cause everything's better in England'.) Since it got into the game, the developers are required to accept it, and it's nice to play with and refer to something that comes from the hoary archives, but since it goes against that basic element of Shadowrun (which none of the rest of 'manatech' does, Clarke's Third notwithstanding, since this is Shadowrun, and there is a stated separation of magic and technology) it's something that should never produce results.
Again, you can play it in your game the way you want, so feel free to have it work. It's changing a core concept of the game, though.
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Wyrm
Wait, what? How does anything I said "punctuate" your argument? What is your argument, really? At this point, you've lost me entirely...
Also, what the what? So, just because a source book is written by someone you seem to dislike* you're ready to discount an aspect of the game that has been around since the 1st fraggin' Edition? Don't get me wrong, I like you, but that is to my mind a rather absurd stance, and not remotely deserving of you.
* And I'll be honest, I had never even heard the name Carl Sargent because I really don't care who writes these books (sorry, past and current writers, but it's true; please do keep it up, though, and I'll keep buying them! :)
Also, also, Project Imago is decidedly not the "only thing" that is canonically outside the bounds of meshing Magic and Technology.
First of all, no one really understands what the hell Technomancy really is, though I do seem to recall that you're vehemently opposed to even the idea that it could somehow be related to magic, so let's just leave that one alone for now, I've got plenty of other references.
Cybermancy, for example, is very clearly described in Augmentation as "a multidisciplinary science that merges magical arts, advanced medical techniques, and sophisticated cybernetics". That one line defies your argument that Project Imago is the only thing outside the bounds, as it says so right there; "merges magical art, advanced medical techniques, and sophisticated cybernetics".
Furthermore, and also in Augmentation, the process of Revitalization is described as a way to restore lost Essence "by genetically remodeling DNA to repair damage to the aura or balance to the body’s systems" in order to perform some sort of "genetic Feng Shui"; again, clearly using known (or at least theorized in the modern world) scientific methods to achieve a desired result which in this case just happens to include "restoring" the "soul", as you yourself called it, of a human being. To me, that reads like a scientific method with mystical, if not magical, results, but as always, the specific details are shrouded in mystery.
In Storm Front, it is specifically mentioned that "a large part of " the formula for Blue-227, the biochemical weapon used as part of Aztech's Operation: Marauder to bring down Sirrurg, is magically based, which the observers (The Smiling Bandit and his unnamed colleague) find to be "a mystery, because it's not necessary for the overall formula". Again, just a tiny hint, but it's there, and just like the AMP, "it works".
I could go on, but these examples are just what I could come up with off the top of my head. The real mystery to me is this:
If you really believe that the current writers fully intend for there to not even be the slightest chance of overlap between magic and technology (please do correct me if this is not what you're trying to say), then how in the seven hells do you explain that a completely different set of writers than those who wrote the original Imago* chose to continue the in-game reference to not only Project Imago but Eliohann himself by allowing him to survive into the 2070s as an e-ghost** in the Matrix, with Celedyr seemingly equally happy to let him continue on with his crack-brained research into a dragon-machine interface? Even if I accepted that Carl Sargent's writing should be dismissed "just because you say so" (and that's what it sounds like to me), the current writers could very easily have dismissed this particular vein of the lore as simply a fluke, but they didn't.
To reiterate, instead of having manatech go the way of the dodo bird, the writers actively included the continuation and expansion of Project Imago into a 4th Edition adventure book, hinted at a magical base in the formula of Blue-227 which disabled a fraggin' dragon(!), introduced Revitalization***, (re-)re-introduced cybermancy, and showcased e-ghost or elints (or whatever the cause of CFD turns out to be) who are able to use the magical talents of their Awakened "hosts" to blow the Society of the Phoenix Rising New Years Eve party halfway to high heaven.
* Imago is copyrighted 1992 in the publication I have, at least, so I presume it was published around that time
** He's confirmed to be the digital entity known as Cerberus at least as of Corporate Intrigue
*** At least I don't personally know of Revitalization existing as of 3rd Edition
But, since you've brought it up, and since I've been called upon this before, I'm going to follow CanRay's advice from a thread earlier this year:
as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.
As such, maybe talk to said writer! I'm right here!
<znip>
CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...
Much obliged.
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as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.
As such, maybe talk to said writer! I'm right here!
<znip>
CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...
Much obliged.
I can officially state at this time that I like cookies. ;D
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* shakes fist at the insolent writer*
Damn dirty CanRay! What good are you? Get back to the typewriter if you're not going to contribute!
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as such, I believe that <insert belief here> is staying within the intention of the designers who created the ruleset, and not "handwaving" anything.
As such, maybe talk to said writer! I'm right here!
<znip>
CanRay! Would you mind weighing in on this one, please? From an official-like point of view and stuff; there's cookies in it for you...
Much obliged.
I can officially state at this time that I like cookies. ;D
Bwahahahahahaha!
Can you at least confirm that if you had to capacity to confirm or deny you would state the capacity to confirm or deny if asked about if you can confirm or deny it?
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Fine... How about UN-officially, CanRay. What are your thoughts on the subject of this thread?
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Here it is in a nutshell: non-physical magic (which includes the astral) affects living things, and living things alone. Tech can affect living things. However, a direct tech/magic interface is never going to happen, and this includes tech of any type, even implanted (and so being considered part of the body) being able to record mana-based events.
Every example you've given so far - cybermancy, Blue-227, revitalization, Eliohann as an e-ghost, elints at the Society of the Phoenix Rising, technomancers - has one thing in common: a biological base, for both magic and tech to work on.
- Cybermancy implants tech into the body, and uses magic to keep the soul attached to the technically-on-life-support 'living corpse'.
- Blue-227 is a biochemical weapon - which presumably requires magic to be applied to the biological portion in order to activate elements that will make it efficacious against a Great Dragon.
- Revitalization is exactly as you say - a biological procedure, tweaking the genetics of the individual to encourage a mana-friendly environment, if you will. No, it doesn't exist in previous editions, but the effects of the removal of cyberware has always been a question mark that 4e answered - it leaves an essence hole, which revitalization allows you to fill back up.
- Eliohann's body is still alive, if on 'complete immersion' life support, so it's an open question as to whether or not he's actually an e-ghost. Even if he is, the aforementioned e-ghost doesn't possess active magic.
- The elints occupying magical individuals is a operating system overwrite, if you will - changed the mental pattern, but didn't necessarily change the soul of the individual, and definitely didn't change the magic. Elint seizure allows for the skills and memories to remain relatively intact - but having skills doesn't automatically mean having familiarity with how to use them at the same level of control. And magic requires a lot of self-control.
- You would be wrong if you think I've ever been adverse to magic being involved with technomancers. If it does, however, the magic would be enabling a technomancer brain to access the electronics - not accessing the electronics directly. Think of it more like your hand - your brain (the magic) doesn't grip the glass (the technology), your brain (magic) directs your hand (technomancer brain) to grip the glass (technology). It's a very fine line, but it's the closest anything comes to what we're discussing.
Having gone back and looked at Imago, which I hate because it railroads the characters at every step, Sargent at least states that the events of the run are a once-ever event, and are not to be taken as or referred to as a precedent for other such things occurring. I don't like the London Sourcebook because it's one of those sourcebooks in which 'everything is better' - or more powerful, or whatever. Sargent's work is, simply, bad work. But like every developer, I do accept it as canon, because it is canon. As is the statement of Imago being a 'once-ever' event.
So really? All the points you're using are reinforcing my statement - there is no direct technology-magic interaction, save where the magic creates a physical effect.
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Thank you for elaborating, Wyrm, that makes everything much more clear.
And to that, I have but a single response; biological computing. I really don't think it's all that difficult to come up with some sort of rationale for pushing the boundaries of the science and magic.
Isn't that part of the game, taking the universe and making it your own? For me at least, that's part of the fun.
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Isn't that part of the game, taking the universe and making it your own? For me at least, that's part of the fun.
And I never said you shouldn't or can't - you by all means should do so. I'm just reminding you, and always have been, not to confuse what's in your game, or the consequences of it, with what's in the canon.
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And I'm just politely disagreeing with you on what canon may or may not allude to ;)
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I dunno, man. It's pretty tough to argue with five editions worth of out-of-character statements that say 'no direct magic-tech interface'. Even if in-game they're doing as much research as they can, even if the Big D set out rewards for discovering a way in his will ... the game line was, and has always been, 'cameras can't see mana events, tech can't record astral perception, no magic-tech interfaces ever', so ... not a lot of wiggle room, in my view.
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It's pretty easy to see how they could do it, though.
One of the key points is that magic requires a biological component. And, unfortunately, Shadowrun opens a massive can of worms that I don't think the developers have realized the implications of.
One of the constant ideas in science-fiction and even in some cyberpunk is utilizing biological components to take over for components that are purely electronic or chemical today. One of the ideas I've seen bandied around is biological data chips; they're basically genetically-engineered brain tissue that exists inside plastic shell. The idea is that you can use those to transfer far greater sums of knowledge in certain areas than microchips will ever be capable of doing. Given the levels of genetic engineering and cybernetic enhancement in Shadowrun, they most likely have passed the threshold where such technology is possible.
Then again, it might not be possible even then to store the necessary experience, just due to the biological chip lacking an aura.
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Those statements have, in some cases, had an implicit or explicit "yet" attached to them, Wyrm.
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I guess, RHat.
SlowDeck, that's again possible, but going by what's been stated (not implied), it would still be magic on the biological portion - to make it act in a certain way, more efficiently, or whatever. It's a great idea, of course.
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Considering it is entirely possible to cultivate a mana environment in fraggin space using life forms, I think it's a perfectly plausible theory that one could use organic matter as a form of "storage" for a simrig with a biological interface.
And RHat, great point, that was part of my argument from the getco; this is not something I see being commercially available, rather, it is something I would expect to be highly experimental, vastly cost ineffective, and potentially unstable (ref the "burning through test subjects" comment that was made earlier).
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Considering it is entirely possible to cultivate a mana environment in fraggin space using life forms, I think it's a perfectly plausible theory that one could use organic matter as a form of "storage" for a simrig with a biological interface.
And RHat, great point, that was part of my argument from the getco; this is not something I see being commercially available, rather, it is something I would expect to be highly experimental, vastly cost ineffective, and potentially unstable (ref the "burning through test subjects" comment that was made earlier).
Let's be honest here, though - if they could achieve some kind of magic/tech interface, this is most assuredly not the goal they'd have in mind. That said, the problem seems much more complex than simply using biological storage could solve - you'd need, effectively, an Awakened biological computer, because it would need to be astrally sensitive itself.
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I tend to agree that this might not be the goal everyone has in mind, it might be the first step as recording data is much easier than manipulating data. There's also no reason something like this couldn't have been the side effects of another research project entirely, an accidental discovery as much as penicillin, teflon, and radioactivity (took quite a few years from Becquerel and the Curie's discoveries before we had nuclear weapons, after all).
That being said, I wouldn't discount the usefulness of a device capable of recording a magician's astral perception for organizations like military and security forces; imagine having the ability to "share" information about what a team's combat magician senses in real-time, the response time alone would change the name of the game in terms of combat effectiveness if the entire team can focus on the enemy magicians before they even cast a single spell.
In-game, rumours abound that Ares' failed Excalibur project began as some sort of arcanotech weapon to help combat bug spirits; imagine what something like this could do for Firewatch teams patrolling the Containment Zone. And if there's on thing history has shown us it's that the military can be rather single-mindedly focused on research they think can benefit them in some way or another.
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I can officially state at this time that I like cookies. ;D
Bwahahahahahaha!
Can you at least confirm that if you had to capacity to confirm or deny you would state the capacity to confirm or deny if asked about if you can confirm or deny it?
No comment, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of awakened Maple Syrup.Fine... How about UN-officially, CanRay. What are your thoughts on the subject of this thread?
I would have to investigate this discussion in far more detail than I have to properly do that. And I'm a bit busy. :-\
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::)Oy..... I'm just waiting for Catalyst to take the Lucas route and declare magic ability and use as the application of the mitochondrions within the 'Awakened'.
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I don't think Catalyst would do that. If anything, the Aztlan-Amazonia War seems to hint that mixing technology and magic is a really bad idea even when it does work.
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::)Oy..... I'm just waiting for Catalyst to take the Lucas route and declare magic ability and use as the application of the mitochondrions within the 'Awakened'.
Heh. Actually, that's sort of been part of the canon since day 1, what with the whole "Awakened gene" thing. It's pretty well established that one's potential to Awaken can be determined by genetic tests.
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Actually, that's not quite true. They still haven't locked down where in the genome the 'magus factor' is, and even clones of mages raised the long way don't reliably awaken. Hell, they haven't reliably found the metagenes that determine whether you'll be an orc, a human, an elf, or so on. They know it is genetic because of old-school heredity tests (elf+elf=elf or human, etc.), but they haven't been able to find where in the genome it is. For the magic gene, they believe it is genetic in nature due to a high tendency towards magic running in certain families, but as for a test to see if you will awaken? Not so much. Given how the emerged and the awakened are mutually exclusive things, they also believe that they are likely two different expressions of the same gene.
But yes, currently magic and technology don't get along too well. But that primarily has to do with the fact that we don't understand even a fraction of what there is to know about magic.
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The other way they know it's genetic is that children of Awakened tend to also be Awakened; that was observed even without the breeding experiments.
Though, it is interesting that, given the way the fluff words things, it seems technomancy is carried on the same set of genes as magic (there's a number of pieces of fluff featuring siblings working together, with one a mage and the other a technomancer).
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Actually, it makes a lot of sense, if you think about it. The rise of Technomancers (and, to some extent, the otaku before them) could be related to the rise in wireless networks and EM fields in general. We already know that the environment can affect (and be affected by) mana levels. EM fields are part of the environment. If a mutation or alternate expression of the 'magus factor' gene reacts with EM fields, then it would explain the sudden emergence of technomancers and emereged critters, with the wireless matrix coming online at the same time. While Jormungand may be a catalyst, it is not the cause, since there are technomancers who were offline when the Crash hit (one reported in Unwired that they were hiking in the mountains, and didn't even know the Crash had happened until days later). This would be similar to how a mana spike could be a catalyst for changes in Awakened creatures or those with dormant metagenes (goblinization, SURGE, drakes, latent awakened).
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I thought the Astral was just a bunch of bright colours and weird things like seeing a dragon in place of a man or a plane sized bird flapping lazily over the park so it would record all that fine? It wouldn't give you the knowledge that coloured aura X = Toxic shaman bwaap bwaapp bwaap but you would see a weird muddy, black aura and feel the fear of the mage.
Hells no. Astral Perception is a completely seperate and distinct form of perception. It doesn't actually relate to visual perception at all, that's just part of how the user's brain typically interprets it (notably, the interpretation varies from person to person and based on their own sensory capacity - blind people interpret it in very different ways, for example).
This. While simsense may be attached to your sensoric centers in the brain, and possibly to some other like hypothalamus, amygdala and hippocampus, to be able to record emotions and some other feelings, I dont believe that, even with extensive EEG research etc, they found the center for astral perception, as it simply doesn`t exist in mundane brain...hell I am not sure if you can consider it even being part of the brain...opening the "third eye" is an act of Magic, not physical body.
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Actually, that's not quite true. They still haven't locked down where in the genome the 'magus factor' is, and even clones of mages raised the long way don't reliably awaken. Hell, they haven't reliably found the metagenes that determine whether you'll be an orc, a human, an elf, or so on. They know it is genetic because of old-school heredity tests (elf+elf=elf or human, etc.), but they haven't been able to find where in the genome it is. For the magic gene, they believe it is genetic in nature due to a high tendency towards magic running in certain families, but as for a test to see if you will awaken? Not so much. Given how the emerged and the awakened are mutually exclusive things, they also believe that they are likely two different expressions of the same gene.
Point. I based my previous post on what amounts to in-universe anecdotal evidence, rather than specific canon statements.