Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: joe15552 on <11-29-10/1230:27>
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Workin' on hammering down a few loose ends on a new character that uses a monofilament whip.
Issue # 1: Hiding the damn thing
It's illegal. I got that. I am trying to figure out if the skin pocket bioware is big enough to hold it. I already planned on giving the character the palming skill and the con skill ("Monofilament whip? I don't have one... do you? *monofilament whip appears in security man's pocket* You know it's illegal to have that thing, right?") If it is not big enough, I'd have to get the smuggling compartment, which is too easy to spot in my opinion, and I'm trying to stick to bioware.
Questions: Is the skin pocket big enough for the whip? If not, any other suggestions?
Issue # 2: Attacking in a way that is not cheap and overpowered with edge
I plan to use edge while attacking multiple targets with the whip. Let's say my old boy had 5 agi, 6 skill, +2 reach, +1 personalized grip, +1 enhanced articulation, +1 reflex recorder = 16 dice to roll with an attack against 4 targets 1 meter apart from each other, thus rolling 4 dice on each of the 4 targets. (I know, why would that many people be that close without engaging in a sex orgy, but this is hypothetical)
Questions: If I spent a point of edge on the attack (let's say my old boy has 6 edge), would I only be able to add those 6 edge dice to one of those targets or would I be able to split up the 6 edge dice among the attacks however I like? If I spent 4 points of edge, would I be able to add 6 dice to each of the 4 attack rolls?
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Since the whip retracts into the haft when not in use, I'd say you'd be able to use the skin pocket to hide it. Figure the haft is about 5-6" long with a 1" diameter?
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Sounds about right.
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cool. Of course I'll run it by my GM, but it's nice to know my thinking is not completely out of the ballpark. Any thoughts on my edge roll questions?
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First off, you can only spend Edge once per die roll, so you wouldn't be able to spend 4 Edge to add 6 dice to the split pool. You'd only be able to add the six Edge dice to the entire pool, but I don't see why you wouldn't be able to split them as you want, just like the other dice. So, you could put all six Edge dice on one target, or 3 on one and the other three split among the other targets; or 2 on two and 1 on two targets; or other combinations.
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The whip itself takes up just over zero space. A relatively famous example has a Yakuza keeping one in his prosthetic thumb. As for Edge, my main concern in allowing it to be split is that you now get Rule of Six on four different rolls.
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First off, you can only spend Edge once per die roll, so you wouldn't be able to spend 4 Edge to add 6 dice to the split pool.
Well technically he's making 4 different die rolls with the split pool.
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By the rules as written (SR4A, p. 74) you can only spend Edge once on any test or action, and the effects apply to a single test. Multiple attacks have multiple tests but only a single action, which implies that you can only use Edge once, and it only applies to one of the tests.
However, Full Defense is also an action, and this would imply that you can only spend Edge once per Full Defense action. I'm not sure that I like the implications of that. It's extra bookkeeping and deadlier, and I'm not fond of either. Therefore, I'm inclined to go easy on the once-per-action part of the rule.
By the way, Enhanced Articulation only applies to Physical skills, not to Combat skills. I noticed that Dawn of the Artifacts makes the same mistake in Samriel's write-up. "Physical skills" is a specific category: Running, Swimming, Infiltration, etc.
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Questions: Is the skin pocket big enough for the whip? If not, any other suggestions?
It fits in a fingercompartment ! so its very,very small
Let's say my old boy had 5 agi, 6 skill, +2 reach, +1 personalized grip, +1 enhanced articulation, +1 reflex recorder = 16 dice to roll with an attack against 4 targets 1 meter apart from each other, thus rolling 4 dice on each of the 4 targets.
Enhanced Art. is not for Combat Skills ! Reflexrecorder raises the Skill itself
So its AGI 5 + Skill 7 = 12 Dice /4 =3 + Range 2(modifier) + pers Grip 1(Modifier)--> 6 Dice per Enemy
Questions: If I spent a point of edge on the attack only on one of the 4 Attack Rolls
If I spent 4 points of edge, would I be able to add 6 dice to each of the 4 attack rolls?
Yes because Each Attack is entitled its own Edge
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Sorry Medicineman:
Multiple targets
Characters may attack more than one opponent in melee with the same Complex Action, as long as those opponents are within one meter of each other. The attacker’s dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled separately.
Since it's a single action and, as Bradd pointed out on p. 74, you can only use one Edge on a single action, I have to stick with my original answer that you can't spend edge on each attack roll.
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Now with the Edge nothing says you have to split your combat pool equally ;)
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True. You could make one attack with just 1 die + Edge, and split the rest of the pool among the other attacks. Only the Edge attack gets rule of six, of course.
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Medicineman:
So its AGI 5 + Skill 7 = 12 Dice /4 =3 + Range 2(modifier) + pers Grip 1(Modifier)--> 6 Dice per Enemy
That's an interesting interpretation. I would not have taken the rules that way. I think I got the edge thing ironed out, but I didn't know you add the range and the grip modifier to each enemy.
In my interpretation, the grip and the range add to the pool, and the pool is split among targets.
Also my interpretation of enhanced articulations enhancement is that it adds +1 to physical skills linked to physical attributes. It doesn't say it adds to athletic skills, it says physical skills. So taken literally, I see it as +1 to anything that is under the "Physical Attributes" section in the book. I can understand why a GM would interpret it your way, though, so I guess I should run that by my GM before I make an attack roll.
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See SR4A, p. 124, "Physical Active Skills." The ones linked to physical attributes are Climbing, Diving, Escape Artist, Gymnastics, Infiltration, Palming, Parachuting, Running, and Swimming. That's all of the Athletics group, half of the Stealth group, and a bunch of miscellaneous skills.
As for modifiers to split dice pools, see SR4A, p. 150, "Attacker Using a Second Firearm": "Split the pool before applying [dice pool] modifiers." Reflex Recorders are different, though, because they modify your skill rather than the dice pool. See SR4A, p. 61, "A Note on Modifiers" sidebar for a discussion of the difference.
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Bradd's right, Joe.
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That's silly. That's like saying my (character's) Akido isn't a physical skill based upon a physical attribute. Or that swinging a sword isn't a physical skill. Or that CQB with pistols, SMG's, or assault rifles isn't a physical skill. All of these could benefit from improved flexibility, and all these were included in previous editions. I'm calling shenanigans.
EDIT: BTW, I know several folks who replaced a hand or a few digits and installed a monowhip in said replacement. One guy used it as a monofilament garrote (he was an infiltrator type, and was unpleasant to fight against).
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Also my interpretation of enhanced articulations enhancement is that it adds +1 to physical skills linked to physical attributes. It doesn't say it adds to athletic skills, it says physical skills. So taken literally, I see it as +1 to anything that is under the "Physical Attributes" section in the book. I can understand why a GM would interpret it your way, though, so I guess I should run that by my GM before I make an attack roll.
As much i liked that to be true, Mediciman and Bradd are correct.
Physical skills are a specific list of skills, combat skills are their own set of skills.
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Shenanigans.
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Maybe it's simply a balance issue to keep the mod from being too versatile/powerful.
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Exactly, Monky. It's not trying to tell you that those combat skills involve physicality, but it's a rule so that the mod effects only 15 skills instead of 34.
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But it exists solely as a "game balance" issue and makes zero sense for what the mod actually is. It's like SMG's in Half-Life: SMG's do less damage per bullet than a pistol does while using the exact same ammunition. It's game balance that's actually detrimental to gameplay. Same here.
If we were going to be using the game balance card, then Emotitoys should be priced much, much higher than the software package which provides the same benefit. But they aren't, because of some real world sense here: Emotitoys are hardware that can be broken or rendered obsolete and thus need replacing; the software can be copied and upgraded with little effort and thus costs more.
Honestly, enhanced articulation is such a good mod (even if one uses the ridiculous limitation) that it would make sense that anyone who can remotely afford it would buy it. Hell, I'd buy the thing if it were real, and I wouldn't mind going into debt for it, as one of the side effects of the mod is to cure or prevent arthritis. That by itself makes it a "must have" mod. Along with synthacardium and pathogenic defense augmentations, a body will live much healthier for much longer.
I won't even talk about the brain enhancements, as they would be auto-include for anyone considered skilled labor or an executive. (Seen the sleep-regulator enhancement? Yeah, it's just that good.)
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Who said it would make sense? I say if you're going to allow it for combat skills, up the price tag.
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It's the same price tag it's had since it was first released as an augmentation, when it granted all those bonuses anyway. Why would the price go up after 20 years of incremental manufacturing improvements?
EDIT: Just took a look at one of the previous editions. It explicitly included combat skills in the 40,000 nuyen price tag.
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Who said it would make sense? I say if you're going to allow it for combat skills, up the price tag.
Yep... If you're going to toss in all the Melee and Ranged Combat Skills with it, then I'd put it closer to 200,000¥ and 16R availability than 40,000¥/12.
It's the same price tag it's had since it was first released as an augmentation, when it granted all those bonuses anyway. Why would the price go up after 20 years of incremental manufacturing improvements?
EDIT: Just took a look at one of the previous editions. It explicitly included combat skills in the 40,000 nuyen price tag.
I'll have to take a look when I get home to my other editions.
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Same reason skillwires went up? Balance adjustment, only in this case they trimmed the capabilities instead of raising the price.
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I don't know. I was just trying to maintain some small bit of the game balance issue. I suppose you could always argue that some critical component in the process has become rare due to Runner activity, economic turbulence, or some such crap. But that's kind of hackneyed. Eh, screw it. Who cares?
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Weren't we discussing whips anyway? :P
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Indeed. You know, someone should really make a monowire cat-o-nine-tails.
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That's silly. That's like saying my (character's) Akido isn't a physical skill based upon a physical attribute. Or that swinging a sword isn't a physical skill. Or that CQB with pistols, SMG's, or assault rifles isn't a physical skill. All of these could benefit from improved flexibility, and all these were included in previous editions. I'm calling shenanigans.
There's a difference between physical skills and Physical skills just like there's a difference between Chemistry (Knowledge, SR4) and Chemistry (Active, Arsenal).
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Indeed. You know, someone should really make a monowire cat-o-nine-tails.
ACK! A glitch with those and you'd wind up like the Lieutenant guy in the first Resident Evil movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXgsCPFhSgc#t=01m42ss).
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ACK! A glitch with those and you'd wind up like the Lieutenant guy in the first Resident Evil movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXgsCPFhSgc#t=01m42ss).
[/quote]
True. But you gotta admit, it would be a really damn cool weapon.
Or ooo, ooo, monowire nunchucks. ;D
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a little while ago I was toying with the Idea of giving a char 4 Fingercompartments with 4 Monowhips
with an AGI of 12 and a Skill of 4 thats 16Dice/4 = 4 + Reach 2--> 6Dice per Attack.... :D
but then,on the other hand, once the Strings entangle..... :(
with an entangling Dance
Medicineman
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I like Bradd's interpretation that includes all the Physical Active Skills. While it doesn't include any combat skills, it does include some things that are not linked to physical attributes, like tracking, shadowing, survival, navigation, and disguise.
However, reading the book literally, it says "Physical skills linked to Physical Attributes." If I were to use Bradd's interpretation while reading the book literally, it would only add +1 to Climbing, diving, escape artist, gymnastics, infiltration, palming, parachuting, running, and swimming. That's +1 to 9 skills. I think if I were GM'ing, that's how I would enforce the rule because the player is spending 5 build points to increase 9 skills by one. Anyone think any other skills should be added to this list?
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Combat skills. Just like they've always been.
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I like Bradd's interpretation that includes all the Physical Active Skills.
No, I was only counting the ones linked to physical attributes. I didn't list the ones with mental attributes.
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I like Bradd's interpretation that includes all the Physical Active Skills. While it doesn't include any combat skills, it does include some things that are not linked to physical attributes, like tracking, shadowing, survival, navigation, and disguise.
However, reading the book literally, it says "Physical skills linked to Physical Attributes." If I were to use Bradd's interpretation while reading the book literally, it would only add +1 to Climbing, diving, escape artist, gymnastics, infiltration, palming, parachuting, running, and swimming. That's +1 to 9 skills. I think if I were GM'ing, that's how I would enforce the rule because the player is spending 5 build points to increase 9 skills by one. Anyone think any other skills should be added to this list?
Yeah, I saw that on the second go round that it's only 9 skills not the fifteen I counted. I'd stick with the 9 for current cost of the 'ware.
It's the same price tag it's had since it was first released as an augmentation, when it granted all those bonuses anyway. Why would the price go up after 20 years of incremental manufacturing improvements?
EDIT: Just took a look at one of the previous editions. It explicitly included combat skills in the 40,000 nuyen price tag.
In Street Samurai Catalog, Enhanced Articulation gave a +1 on "motion-intensive" skills and the Reaction attribute, but doesn't really go into detail on what they consider motion-intensive besides Athletics.
With Man & Machine, it then graduated to granting a +1 on Reaction and Combat, Physical, Technical and Build/Repair skills, including Vehicle skills when not driving via datajack.
Gun Nut, you can play it that it includes all the Physical Skills, but the SR4A clearly lists that it isn't so most of use aren't going to agree with your take.
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I don't have a problem if others want to play without. My problem is that it is such an artificial game balancer that it detracts from actually playing the game.
In the Shadowtech book, enhanced articulation benefitted Active skills. Basicly, any skill that wasn't a knowledge or language type skill, one that required use performing a task, benefitted from EA. This was a bit vague, as it included skills like Decking (old edition Hacking), even when jacked in. Later, in the third edition book Man and Machine, they clarified it to only benefit Combat, Physical, Technical, and Build/Repair skills, and while it did still grant a +1 bonus to Reaction (a derived attribute for all previous editions), that bonus didn't affect matrix or rigging abilities.
In every edition, if you were physically doing something, EA had a benefit. This only makes sense, as it is such a pervasive and encompassing augmentation. More fluid movement helps any physical activity, even some completely mundane ones (one could even argue sculpting would benefit, and this was still reflected in the skill sets).
Now, in 4th edition, magically, EA only benefits someone who is moving, but not moving in a hostile fashion. One could use it to benefit their Gymnastics skill but not when they are in combat. That falls under the purview of the Dodge skill (superficially very similar to jumping around quickly) which is completely different from jumping around for fun. It's jarring, and it can completely pull someone out of the game because it is so obviously and randomly done for some sort of strange nod toward "game balance" which never existed in any edition prior to this one. It's another big change done for, IMO, the sake of big change.
Now, back to the monowhip issue.
I don't find anything really "cheap" about monofilament whips. They are expensive and a little hard to procure for starting characters. They are also really dangerous to use. Not to mention what the authorities will do to the character if they find one on him/her/it. They are very powerful in close combat, and easy to conceal. And nothing about them could be interpreted as anything other than lethal force. No wonder cops get snarky when you pull out the whip.
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Enhanced articulation is a combination of a number of extensive procedures, including joint-surface coating, relubrication, and tendon/ligament augmentation; these procedures result in a muscle and joint system of extreme fluidity. Enhanced articulation allows a character to execute motion-intensive skills (Active Skills) in a more precise and speedier fashion. Possessors of enhanced articulation roll an additional die when making any Success Test involving an Active Skill. (An individual with Athletics 4 and enhanced articulation, for example, rolls 5 dice when making an Athletics Success Test.) Enhanced articulation also adds +1 to the Reaction Attribute. Studies show that individuals with enhanced articulation may be immune to many arthritic conditions as a long-term side effect of augmentation.
The Reaction bonus given by augmentation has no effect on rigging or pure cybernetic decking.
Emphasis mine on the key part. Yes, it says Active Skills, but also "motion-intensive" since EVERY skill in 1st Edition was an Active Skill (including Computer, Etiquette and Sorcery), I don't think it was every intended that Enhanced Articulation was to affect all skills, only the ones where Motion was a key element of the skill. I'll give you Melee combat skills, but then and now I would never have ruled as a DM that fluid joints made you a better decker, mage or face.
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Same here. Close Combat seems appropriate, and I'm not sure about Firearms, but it just seems wrong to me to apply Enhanced Articulation to stuff like Vehicle skills.
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Same here. Close Combat seems appropriate, and I'm not sure about Firearms, but it just seems wrong to me to apply Enhanced Articulation to stuff like Vehicle skills.
Riding a Bike Yes
driving a Car No
I would also Include the EA for Dodge, Close Combat and Throwing
but not for Firearms
with a Dance included
Medicineman
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a little while ago I was toying with the Idea of giving a char 4 Fingercompartments with 4 Monowhips
with an AGI of 12 and a Skill of 4 thats 16Dice/4 = 4 + Reach 2--> 6Dice per Attack.... :D
but then,on the other hand, once the Strings entangle..... :(
with an entangling Dance
Medicineman
I sense an Hellsing inspiration here. :P
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if at all than only subconcious .
I like Animes, but not Hellsing because its toooo Railroading to me
(She's got two Monowhips now as a kind of Back-Up-Weapon because no one expects her two have Two in the same Hand but fights with only one )
wit a Back-Up-Dance
Medicineman
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Enhanced articulation is a combination of a number of extensive procedures, including joint-surface coating, relubrication, and tendon/ligament augmentation; these procedures result in a muscle and joint system of extreme fluidity. Enhanced articulation allows a character to execute motion-intensive skills (Active Skills) in a more precise and speedier fashion. Possessors of enhanced articulation roll an additional die when making any Success Test involving an Active Skill. (An individual with Athletics 4 and enhanced articulation, for example, rolls 5 dice when making an Athletics Success Test.) Enhanced articulation also adds +1 to the Reaction Attribute. Studies show that individuals with enhanced articulation may be immune to many arthritic conditions as a long-term side effect of augmentation.
The Reaction bonus given by augmentation has no effect on rigging or pure cybernetic decking.
Emphasis mine on the key part. Yes, it says Active Skills, but also "motion-intensive" since EVERY skill in 1st Edition was an Active Skill (including Computer, Etiquette and Sorcery), I don't think it was every intended that Enhanced Articulation was to affect all skills, only the ones where Motion was a key element of the skill. I'll give you Melee combat skills, but then and now I would never have ruled as a DM that fluid joints made you a better decker, mage or face.
Oh, yeah, I agree. I was pointing out the oddities of the first release of EA. I guess I ddin't emphasize how vague the ruling was (we houseruled that it wouldn't help for rigging or decking in the matrix, as that wouldn't have made sense). No one used it for Etiquette, because it was so non-sensical that no one ever thought of adding it.
I can see it benefitting the Firearms skills in CQB, because of the rapid changes in position needed to deal with close in targets, but not for very long range targets. Modelling that in the rules,however, would be problematic (where do you draw the line, at a weapon's range band or at a fixed range?). I think if someone was using pistols for the Firefight martial art or for CQB it would help, but that's pretty specific.
I once came up with an idea for a drone using a few monowhips like a weed whacker. They just spin around the top of the drone as it drives down a corridor.
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I once came up with an idea for a drone using a few monowhips like a weed whacker. They just spin around the top of the drone as it drives down a corridor.
Now that I like.
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Or a rotor drone with a double mono-whip rotating on the lower part, just at eye level. :P
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Or a net gun woven with monowire.
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Hey! That's my idea:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=53.msg4024#msg4024 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=53.msg4024#msg4024)
:D
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I'm pretty sure Warhammer40k Eldar had that idea a long before you ;)
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Predators sure beat the Eldar to it.
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Its a pretty close thing. I'd have to check the copyright date on that old Harlequins box set vs Predator 2.
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Thought to that: would Predator 1 count, because they obviously had to have the tech, even though it wasn't used in the movie?
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Thought to that: would Predator 1 count, because they obviously had to have the tech, even though it wasn't used in the movie?
Nope !
Only when its shown does a Gimmick count
Hough!
Medicineman
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Yeah, I was thinking that much. Damn ;)
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actually after reading edge he is correct he can spend an edge on each attack ...
in the uses of edge pg 74 SR4A
When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:
• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge afer you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. Te Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
• You may make a Long Shot Test (p. 61) even if your dice pool was reduced to 0
or less; roll only your Edge dice for this test (the Rule of Six does not apply).
• You may go frst in an Initiative Pass, regardless of your Initiative Score (see
Initiative and Edge, p. 145). If multiple characters spend Edge to go frst in the
same pass, those characters go in order according to their Initiative Scores frst,
then everyone else goes according to their Initiative Scores.
• You may gain 1 extra Initiative Pass for that Combat Turn only (see Initiative
and Edge, p. 145).
• You may negate the efects of one glitch or critical glitch.
• You may invoke the Dead Man’s trigger rule (p. 163).
A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65). No more than
1 point of Edge can be spent on any specifc testor action at one time. If you spent
a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you
cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge
to that test.
the Key is Test OR action ....
Also your missing a few Key points to splitting your Dicepool ..... Perconalized Group and Reach are Dice pool modifiers and dicepool modifiers are applied AFTER the spliting of the pool
Let's say my old boy had 5 agi, 6 skill, +2 reach, +1 personalized grip, +1 enhanced articulation, +1 reflex recorder
As noted Enhanced atriculation specifically says "Physical skills" So thats out
Reflex Recorder +1 to the skill and is NOT listed as a Dice pool modifier
SO
your Dice pool is actually 12 (5 agi 6 skil Reflex recorder +1)
for a total of 12/4=3
Dice pool modifiers are added after the dice pool is split .... so you would add + 3 (personalized group +1/ Reach+2) to each attack for a total of 6 Dice per attack
Id also like to point out Synch pg. 91 augmentation .... which adds a +1 to perception tests and a +1 die to all combat tests
against each opponent after the enemy’s first attack
this would give you a 7 DP per attack before edge per target
Edits: Cleaned up the post a bit ... added Working quotes ect
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Trouble is, when you use or in the negative, it typically means neither rather than either.
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In the Shadowtech book, enhanced articulation benefitted Active skills. Basicly, any skill that wasn't a knowledge or language type skill, one that required use performing a task, benefitted from EA.
And back then, I distinctly remember considerable arguments that EA was simply too good. Given what it netted you, just about every character that could have it did have it. There was no good reason not to have it.
That in and of itself is a warning flag that a rules option is unbalanced, when it becomes a "must have" for every character.
-k
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Which is why I also added that we ruled out many skills as simply being non-applicable (like etiquette or programming).
In the Shadowtech book, enhanced articulation benefitted Active skills. Basicly, any skill that wasn't a knowledge or language type skill, one that required use performing a task, benefitted from EA.
And back then, I distinctly remember considerable arguments that EA was simply too good. Given what it netted you, just about every character that could have it did have it. There was no good reason not to have it.
That in and of itself is a warning flag that a rules option is unbalanced, when it becomes a "must have" for every character.
-k
By that logic, commlinks and smartguns are unbalanced, as those are both "must have" for every character (even the magic ones).
Sometimes technology is justthat good. But each rule does need examination, I agree.
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Having already made a fairly long argument about must-have vs unbalanced on the forums before, I'll keep it short. Is the bonus provided by Enhanced Articulation minus the drawbacks roughly equal to other things of the same cash/essence cost? As Physical Skill/Physical Attribute it seems to me to balance out with Reflex Recorders, providing a similar +1 on 8-10 skills. Its slightly cheaper than two Skill Group Reflex recorders, but only slightly.
Add in combat skills and it becomes comparable to adding three more Group sized Reflex Recorders. Now its 1/4 the price and Essence cost of a comparable bonus. That's getting into the territory where I'd consider adjusting the costs.
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Commlinks provide over-the-top communication/surveillance/utility for the extremely low price involved.
Smartlinks provide a very large amount of utility/game bonus for rock-bottom prices.
For that matter, just regular firearms provide significant advantages when compared to just melee combat. Back in the day, the Catholic church (supposedly) forbid heavy crossbows because of the incredible advantage they gave over mounted, armored troops.
Technology is the great equalizer...when you can get it.
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The crossbow issue was more about any peasant or simple footman being able to kill a heavy armored noble, than anything else. But that was a sign of things to come. For example, the Hussite movement's greatest sin was not just heresy, but use of 'ungodly' early firearms.