Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: inca1980 on <11-28-10/2056:20>
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I remember reading something about how grenade blasts and other explosions always knockdown...and now for the life of me I can't find where I read that. Can someone please let me know if there is something like this anywhere in the rulebooks?
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Off the top of my head I am not aware of any rule that explicitly states that you always get knocked down from a grenade blast, however, using the rules for knockdown would be appropriate when hit by a grenade blast. So basically just compare the final DV of the blast vs the victims Body. If the damage is >= Body, then they're flat. A side note is that if you take 10 or more boxes of damage from 1 attack, you are knocked down regardless of your Body Attribute. It would also not be too far out of line, IMO, to state that certain grenades get a bonus to knockdown similar to how gel rounds work.
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Knockdown
Characters who take damage may be knocked down by the attack. If a character takes a number of boxes of damage (Stun or Physical) from a single attack that equal or exceed his Body, then the attack automatically knocks him down. Characters who take 10 or more boxes of damage in a single attack are always knocked down.
Note that certain less-than-lethal weapons are specifically designed to knock a target down, including gel rounds and shock weapons such as tasers and stun batons. Gel rounds reduce the Body of a character by 2 when comparing it to the DV to determine knockdown. Shock weapons have their own effects, noted under Electricity Damage, p. 163.
Knockdown is automatic in 4th Edition, as long as it meets the prerequisite damage.
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I cant remember off hand but is there a equivilent to a pellet grenade, goes off and the blast isnt frag but rubber balls for a higher chance of knockdown / stun but much less overall damage
I dont think there is one by raw but would be a nice idea similar to flash bangs but different flavour
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Previously, damage potential had a chance of knocking a target down. If the damage (rather, the Power of an attack) from an attack (before soak) was greater than twice the target's Body score (roughly, some weapons dealt with knockdown differently), then the target had to make a Strength test to avoid being knocked down.
The current KD rules removes some dice rolls in order to streamline play. It does seem a bit odd to me that a shotgun blast at close range won't knock someone down even if they soak the damage with their armor (a sudden jolt of momentum could unbalance someone), but the current rules are faster to adjucate and there are ways of improving KD.
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What? Are you trying to say I shouldn't stay on my feet when shot at point blank range with an assault cannon?
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I think I confused KD with the extra -2 you get to defense against blasts. Still, it seems that even soaking damage you should get knocked down by some things.
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Like from grenades, rockets/missiles, blast effect indirect combat spells, assault cannons, sniper rifles, shotguns, and so on?
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You could always house rule that if the attack deals more than their Body in DV before Damage Resistance, they can resist Knockdown with a Str+Bod opposed test to the DV. If they are able to reduce the DV below their Body, they are fine, if not then they are knocked down. This would be before any Damage Resitance test, however, and they wouldn't be eligible for a second knockdown test if they don't reduce the damage below 10DV.
The only problem is that this will probably result in a LOT more knockdown. Making it twice your body would result in less, but it would also make the house rule pretty moot as well.
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The water cannon, in particular, doesn't need to deal damage in order to throw someone to the ground. I don't care how tough you are, that much force coming at you WILL pick you up and set you on the ground somewhere else.
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Yup. They were kind of designed for that. Rubber bullets too. (Well, gel rounds. Whatever.)
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You could always house rule that if the attack deals more than their Body in DV before Damage Resistance, they can resist Knockdown with a Str+Bod opposed test to the DV.
I was thinking something very similar. My version might be something like:
1. If DV before soak test exceeds Body (or Body*2, or Body+Str, or w/e), then make a note to check for knockdown.
2. Roll Damage resist as normal.
3. Make a knockdown test = Str + Body (or w/e) with a threshold = final DV (# of boxes of damage) taken.
Adds extra rolls, but if you're ok with that, then it seems pretty fair IMO.
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You could always house rule that if the attack deals more than their Body in DV before Damage Resistance, they can resist Knockdown with a Str+Bod opposed test to the DV. If they are able to reduce the DV below their Body, they are fine, if not then they are knocked down. This would be before any Damage Resitance test, however, and they wouldn't be eligible for a second knockdown test if they don't reduce the damage below 10DV.
Oh my. Earthdawn rules invading Shadowrun. ;)
It works just like that - in ED you have a Wound Threshold. When you get enough damage to reach it in one attack, that wound is a Serious one, causing all kinds of bad effects (like penaltiest to tests and healing), and calling for a wound balance test. If you fail that one, you go down, and have to spend you action to get up.
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Or make a Dexterity test to kip up. The ones that can spend karma on the test have it much easier.
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Or you could just not get hit. I use spirits and undead to hold them at bay while I throw Bone Shatter and Constrict Heart spells at them. ;D
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Well, i have Dust Devil, Juggler's Touch and Aura Strike for that. If they can't see me, they can't hit me. If they do, they need to go through the Juggler's Touch affected area. If they do, they get Aura Strike.
Well, if that doesn't help, there's still Razor Orb. ;P
And to be on topic, i always found the notion, that a simple bullet has enough energy to knock someone down a bit silly. Shotgun shell, yes, especially if it was absorbed by armor, but a bullet, or even two? Any attack that would knock your character down probably breaks a few ribs, and hurts a lot...
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I can see the actual damage causing a knockdown, as the human body reacts to the injury and not necessarily the physical force involved. In that case, the lighter weapons (light pistols, pistols, typical rifle shots) would be more dependant on damage done. For other, heavier weapons, or those specificly designed to KD, the transfer of energy involved should be sufficient to cause a knockdown.
Adjucating this has always been a bit of a pain, honestly. The quick, streamlined rules currently in SR4A may be the best to use in those cases. As for extra KD chance from blasts, why not increase the effective damage of the blast by +2 to model the all over body spray a target gets?
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Yes, that's a lot better. Especially if you treat 'knocked down' as a more abstract state, not just lying on the ground. It's a lot more interesting, if you describe someone's character as falling on his knees, clenching his wounded side. And it does make the character look more bad-ass by not falling down and writhing in pain.
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Yes, that's a lot better. Especially if you treat 'knocked down' as a more abstract state, not just lying on the ground. It's a lot more interesting, if you describe someone's character as falling on his knees, clenching his wounded side. And it does make the character look more bad-ass by not falling down and writhing in pain.
this is true. I very rarely describe knowck-down effects as "lying on the ground" with or without the "writhing in pain" bit. I've seen far too many real-life knock-down attacks from martial arts to flatly describe them as such. Often, at least for more agile characters, I describe the process of knock-down & get-up as something similar to when someone plants their foot behind yours and then pushes your shoulders. You fall backwards (knocked down), but if you know your stuff, you can roll with it and use the momentum to roll backwards and land more or less on your feet or knees, or all 4's. It may not be battle ready , but you are a bit more prone (-3 for being prone) in this process and regaining your footing takes a second (spend an action to "get up").